The Smartest Cross-Examination Is the Shortest One - Julio Foolio Trial

[00:00:00] Tony DeWitt: It's always exciting for me when, back-to-back, two lawyers show excellent cross-examination skills. I'll have more in just a moment. Hi, Tony DeWitt here. Formerly, I was a Missouri attorney in active practice. Then I retired. Then I unretired and started a YouTube channel. And I bring you all kinds of stuff about trials and the law. So no legal advice is given, but stay tuned. This is what we're talking about today. Today, we're back in the Julio-Fulio trial, whose real name was Charles Jones. Prosecutors say this was a coordinated ambush tied to a long-running gang feud. Four defendants now faced first-degree murder charges and the death penalty. The defense, on the other hand, is fighting over whether this case should even be tried together, arguing that shared evidence and alleged gang ties among the four could unfairly prejudice the jury. This is one you should pay attention to. Because one of the prime rules of cross-examination is, first, do no harm. Get what you need and sit down. And that's exactly what our female attorney does here and does very, very well. I think that, again, if the other guy showed a great deal of great use of leading questions, this attorney shows that she's after specific things, and I think she gets almost all of what she wants here. I'm going to play the whole thing through, and then I'll have some comments. Good morning. [00:01:41] Speaker 2: Good morning. [00:01:42] Speaker 3: I represent Sean Gathright. Detective, you talked today and last week about you're more focused with the ATK gang, correct? [00:01:53] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am. [00:01:53] Speaker 3: And in your work and investigation into that gang, you never heard Mr. Gathright's name, did you? [00:01:59] Speaker 2: That's correct. Okay. [00:02:00] Speaker 3: And through your investigations and your work, you are familiar with 1200, which is an alliance, right? [00:02:06] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am. [00:02:07] Speaker 3: And Mr. Gathright's name was not involved in that gang? [00:02:10] Speaker 2: Not to my knowledge. [00:02:12] Speaker 3: And you also have knowledge of other gangs, specifically 6th Block at a maybe peripheral level based on what you do? [00:02:21] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am. [00:02:22] Speaker 3: And Mr. Gathright wasn't involved in that gang to your knowledge? [00:02:24] Speaker 2: No, ma'am. [00:02:25] Speaker 3: And you just mentioned to Mr. Gonzalez that there's approximately, and we won't hold you to the number, 30 gangs in Jacksonville, right? [00:02:32] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am. [00:02:33] Speaker 3: And as far as your work in the gang unit and working with gangs in Jacksonville, you had never heard of Sean Gathright? [00:02:39] Speaker 2: That's correct. [00:02:42] Speaker 3: You talked last week about there being statutory criteria, right? [00:02:47] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am. [00:02:48] Speaker 3: And some of those criteria put somebody as either a member, right? [00:02:53] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am. [00:02:54] Speaker 3: Or an associate? [00:02:55] Speaker 2: That's correct. [00:02:56] Speaker 3: Okay. And Mr. Gathright was on neither of those lists, was he? [00:02:59] Speaker 2: Not at the time of this incident. [00:03:00] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:03:01] Speaker 3: Until the time of this incident and the investigation from Tampa, you had never heard the name Sean Gathright? [00:03:06] Speaker 2: That's correct. [00:03:08] Speaker 3: No further questions. Thank you. [00:03:09] Tony DeWitt: Now, that was masterful because she didn't give him any question that could have hurt her client. It was always, you never heard this. You never heard that. And he had to testify truthfully that he hadn't. Now, if there are 30-plus gangs in Jacksonville, can you only imagine how difficult it is to keep track of who all those people in those gangs are and who they're related to and who they're mad at, who they're happy with? It has to be a mind-numbingly difficult job to do. So, he testified truthfully. But, of course, none of that means he's not in a gang in Jacksonville. It just means that this detective didn't know that. So, again, it's helpful in this early stage to start undercutting the theory of the state, which is this is gang-related, because, at least as to Mr. Gathright, no gang. And with respect to the other defendant, Rashad Murphy, the first lawyer was questioning on his behalf. Again, nobody tied him to a gang in the cross-examination. Instead, they got a lot of admissions about a bunch of unsolved murders. So, that was good. Now, let's pick up with the next lawyer doing his cross-examination. [00:04:29] Speaker 4: Good morning, Detective. [00:04:30] Speaker 2: Good morning. [00:04:32] Speaker 4: I think you mentioned earlier that the bulk of your knowledge from ATK comes from going through the files of your predecessor and going on social media. [00:04:42] Speaker ?: Is that correct? [00:04:43] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:04:45] Speaker 4: Okay. And social media gives you a lot of information, but I would assume you need to be careful because it doesn't have to be all factual information. [00:04:55] Speaker 2: Correct. [00:04:56] Tony DeWitt: Now, that was an excellent admission to get from him because it is clear that the government is relying heavily on social media posts and stuff put on Facebook, as well as a number of other media sites, to assert that there is gang here and that it's a gang-related thing. And because gang members apparently don't have the common sense to shut their mouths when they are engaged in activity that points out their various links to various crimes, which seems exceedingly stupid to me. But, again, thank goodness that criminals are stupid because it makes them easier to catch. But he does a good job there of getting that admission, and I think we'll see something about social media here in a minute or two that ties that back together. [00:05:47] Speaker 4: In these gangs, we're talking about ATK, 6 o'clock, 1200. There's no real hierarchy in these gangs. Is that accurate? [00:05:54] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:05:55] Speaker 4: And there's no general rules or regulations of these gangs? [00:05:59] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. That's correct. [00:06:03] Speaker 4: Are you aware that ATK is a record label as well? I'm not sure. Okay. So, to your knowledge, they may or may not be a record label, have an LLC for their music? [00:06:18] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. They could. I'm not aware of that. [00:06:22] Speaker 4: Do you know when Charles Jones was documented as a gang member? [00:06:25] Speaker 2: I do not. Do you have any idea? Any year, months? But I'm not, I don't know the exact year or time or anything. [00:06:34] Speaker 4: Do you know, the town center shooting was a long time ago, about eight years ago. [00:06:39] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:06:39] Speaker 4: Charles Jones would have been around 18 at that age. Do you know if he was a gang member around that time? [00:06:46] Speaker 2: No, sir. I would have, based on my knowledge, he would have at least been an associate and he represented Six Block. But I'm not sure of his member status and when he actually became a member of the gang. [00:06:58] Speaker 4: Okay. Were you aware of him prior to going into the gang unit? [00:07:02] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:07:07] Speaker 4: And when I see you and who I smoke are both from 2021, correct? [00:07:12] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:07:13] Speaker 4: And they're not, in those songs, they're making fun of people, but they're not specifically taking credit for those murders. Would you agree? [00:07:20] Speaker 2: I would agree. [00:07:21] Tony DeWitt: And there's another great admission. They're making fun of people, but they're not taking credit for the murders. If that's the case, when it applies to Julio Fulio and the other guy, Tilly, then certainly it applies to these defendants who are on trial here, that maybe they're not taking part in any of this stuff. Again, just trying to even the scales of justice a little bit for these four guys who are on trial. [00:07:50] Speaker 4: Would you also agree that when they're making fun of someone or dissing someone for those murders, they're mainly dissing the fact that that person is dead, so that the way they died isn't as important? [00:08:00] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:08:01] Speaker 4: So if they had died, for instance, I know they mentioned Rod Kay or Spaz in a car crash, they may still be the subject of one of those songs. [00:08:10] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. They're just making fun of the fact that they're deceased. [00:08:14] Tony DeWitt: So manner and cause of death are not important in the general scheme of these videos. And that's important because we're not talking about quid pro quos with regard to being shot. They're just making fun of other people who have met an untimely or early end to their life. And that's not something that can be tied to any direct action on the part of either gang. So another good point sort of undercuts the prosecution's case. [00:08:46] Speaker 4: And a lot of these, you mentioned, or would you agree that a lot of these shootings that occur in Jacksonville that are involving the gangs are both retaliation and for other reasons? [00:08:55] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:08:57] Speaker 4: Charles McCormick was shot because of a song, correct? [00:09:01] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:09:03] Speaker 4: And then we saw the Do It video last Thursday. Young and Ace, did you, you were able to see that he's wearing the ATK chain, correct? Yes, sir. Is that something he wears frequently? [00:09:14] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:09:15] Speaker 4: And that's obviously in reference to what you believe to be the gang ATK? [00:09:20] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:09:24] Speaker 4: A lot of these, the murders we're talking about here today and Thursday happened years ago. Were you aware, and before you were a gang detective, correct? [00:09:34] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:09:35] Speaker 4: Were you aware of any of these murders? [00:09:37] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:09:39] Speaker 4: You didn't have any involvement besides the one we've talked about, correct? The ones, plural. [00:09:44] Speaker 2: Yeah, the ones mentioned before? [00:09:47] Speaker 4: Correct. [00:09:47] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. That's correct. [00:09:50] Speaker 4: And is it fair to say in a lot of these cases, the witnesses are just uncooperatives? [00:09:56] Speaker 2: Generally, it's like a 50-50 shot. [00:10:01] Speaker 4: And for instance, in Charles Jones, when he was shot in the foot in October of 23, he was uncooperative with police, correct? [00:10:09] Speaker 2: To a certain extent. [00:10:15] Speaker 4: And that, is that a main reason why a lot of these remain unsolved? [00:10:19] Speaker 2: That and just like lack of evidence. [00:10:22] Tony DeWitt: Now, there's another interesting admission, lack of evidence. Well, what kind of evidence are we lacking? Witness statements, for one, nobody wants to testify against a gang. And two, probably no forensic evidence either, particularly when there are shootings that occur out on the highway. It's probably really difficult to track down the brass casings in that situation, assuming any ever got out of the car. A lot of times when you shoot from inside a car, the brass piles up inside the car and you take it with you. And that would be something that I think would appeal to most of the people who do this kind of, I don't want to say work, I guess wet work. It's the kind of stuff that would be a good thing for them. They can keep track of the evidence. And the reason for that is obvious. You don't want brass casings laying around because when you push one of those into a magazine, guess what goes right on top? Your thumb. So there's a thumbprint and there's a fingerprint. And in addition to the fingerprint, there's DNA, DNA transfers when you do that. So, again, this is one of those things that if they don't have the evidence, it's really hard to prosecute. But now you have an admission in open court that a lot of times these don't get solved because of uncooperative witnesses and lack of evidence, which I think undercuts to a certain extent, maybe peripherally, the state's case. Again, good on the lawyer for getting that out. [00:11:53] Speaker 4: A lot of the social media and speculation on these songs is the way you were able to claim that these murders are involved in the gang war, correct? Yes, sir. [00:12:06] Tony DeWitt: And what did he admit earlier? He admitted that you couldn't always trust social media information, so he's relying on that heavily. And now, to a certain extent, he's admitted that much of that information may very well be unreliable. Good job of cross-examination here. [00:12:25] Speaker 4: In the three deaths that Mr. Jones references in When I See You, that was specifically referring to June 5th of 2018, the town center shooting. [00:12:35] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:12:37] Speaker 4: And we don't know, obviously, how he got that information of why he's claiming that or how he knows who shot them or anything like that, correct? [00:12:48] Speaker 2: I'm sorry. I'm not understanding. [00:12:50] Speaker 4: Sorry. Bad question. Obviously, we don't know how Mr. Jones found out about that shooting or what information he has about that shooting, correct? [00:13:00] Speaker 2: That's correct. [00:13:04] Speaker 4: And the main reason was, again, just them as rival gang members, correct? [00:13:09] Speaker 2: Yes, sir. [00:13:10] Speaker 4: And all the videos, the drill rap videos we've talked about, Isaiah Chance isn't in any of those videos, correct? [00:13:17] Speaker 2: The ones we talked about. No, sir, he's not in them. [00:13:19] Speaker 4: Okay. He's not mentioned in the ones we've talked about. [00:13:23] Speaker 2: No, sir, he's not. [00:13:24] Speaker 4: And he is, in fact, his own artist, correct? [00:13:27] Speaker 2: Yes, he is. [00:13:29] Speaker 4: That's all the questions I have. [00:13:31] Tony DeWitt: The lawyers are playing it smart and safe. They're not letting that detective get in any additional information that's going to hurt their cause. And that's exactly what they should be doing. And when they get what they need, they sit down. So we now have two people, Rashad Murphy not being one of them. We have Isaiah Chance and we have Sean Gathright being able to exclude themselves from those videos, which I think is pretty important in terms of setting them apart and establishing that they are not members of a gang, or at least not as far as those videos go. Now, there is more cross-examination of this witness by the two other attorneys, and it's pretty much the same deal. They get in, they get out, and they get what they need. And I think, again, I can't say for sure that they're coordinating, but certainly none of them are stepping on the other lawyers or the other clients. Thanks for watching. I appreciate you being here today. And especially if you have subscribed. That means a lot to me. If you have the opportunity today, try to do just one kind thing to help somebody else. It doesn't have to be a big thing. Any kind thing will do. Buy somebody a Coke, get them a cup of coffee, hold open a door for somebody struggling with a package, or even better, over-tip your waitress or waiter if you eat out. Those kinds of things make their day brighter, and you may find yourself noticing other people when they do kind things for you. That would be a way to help make the world a better place. Because, after all, isn't that what we're all after? I'm going to drop my email address up here. In the event you have a comment or some suggestions to make, I'd appreciate it if you'd send them to me. Always enjoy getting something that says, video request. Because, again, that's how I keep making videos. Now, YouTube has a few things that they think you might be interested in. And they're going to be showing up in the little boxes right up there. [00:15:37] Speaker ?: And they're going to be showing up in the little boxes right up there.