About this transcript: This is a full AI-generated transcript of Dave Smith x Nick Fuentes Full Interview — Trump, Media & Today’s Political Climate [Ep2] from KP Entertainment, published April 7, 2026. The transcript contains 24,884 words with timestamps and was generated using Whisper AI.
"You are to win the day on this, and we want to avoid something really bad happening that, you know, I think none of us want to see. I think stressing that is probably important, and also, you know, it's just, like, you see it. I mean, I know because you talk about it. Like, the low IQ, slop shit,..."
[0:00] You are to win the day on this, and we want to avoid something really bad happening that, you know, I think none of us want to see.
[0:06] I think stressing that is probably important, and also, you know, it's just, like, you see it.
[0:13] I mean, I know because you talk about it.
[0:14] Like, the low IQ, slop shit, where it's just kind of like, dude, this is, okay, I know forever you weren't allowed to touch that button, and so you're touching the button because you weren't allowed to.
[0:26] But at a stupid point, it's like, you're allowed to touch it now.
[0:28] And it's just not that impressive.
[0:29] It's kind of like a silly argument, although I will admit it's quite funny.
[0:33] Well, yeah, I mean, the edgelording, even for me, has lost its appeal.
[0:36] It just seems passe, because 10 years ago, you couldn't say that stuff, and that's what made it provocative, and now you can't say it.
[0:44] And also, it's been done for 10 years, so internet edgelord, oh, you've never met someone like me before.
[0:49] It's like, we've all seen that.
[0:51] But I would say that here's how I would characterize the issue, because I hear that a lot, that the Zionists and the anti-Semites are sort of in the self-reinforced.
[1:00] And I would say that how I would characterize the problem is that, you know, in some sense, the Jews are rational.
[1:09] The neocons are rational, because what they're saying is there's kind of two answers to the Jewish question from the Jews, which is we need to return to the land, because only when we have another Jewish kingdom will we have sovereignty and be able to protect ourselves.
[1:24] There's another answer to the Jewish question, which is if we push liberal universalism, everyone will.
[1:31] And if we both tolerate us, if we push religious tolerance and racial tolerance, then people see us as themselves, or the greatest among the nations.
[1:40] These are two strategies, and they're both rational, because after the – by the way, there was anti-Semitism in Nazi Germany.
[1:48] Maybe that's – I got the call to say that, but it's true.
[1:52] Is that a controversial thing?
[1:56] It might be. I don't know.
[1:57] Not even the Holocaust was anti-Semitism.
[1:59] They weren't so fond of them, that's for sure.
[2:02] But it's like in Germany, but also in Russia, but also in America.
[2:05] There are quotas in the universities.
[2:07] Emerging from that time, it is – like we say, the world's made up of races.
[2:13] They have these interests.
[2:15] It's in the Jewish interest to do these things.
[2:18] So Soros takes up the cause of the Open Society Foundation, and open society is based on this philosophical premise, I think, from Bertrand Russell, which says we have tolerance and openness and egalitarianism.
[2:31] And the Likud podcast.
[2:33] And the Likud podcast.
[2:37] And the Likud podcast.
[2:37] And they say that to make the world safe for the Jews, we need Israel.
[2:41] To make Israel safe, we need control over everything west of the river.
[2:45] To do that, we need to destroy all our enemies in the region.
[2:47] Like there is a rational chain of – when they say Israel has the right to exist, they mean we can't exist if we're staring down the barrel of ten countries that hate us.
[2:55] There's a logic there.
[2:57] And I would say that in some sense, that's a legitimate way to think.
[3:02] It's legitimate interest.
[3:04] But I distinguish myself as a white person, as someone from Christendom, as an American.
[3:10] And I'm looking to disentangle the Jewish interest from the American interest and say that, you know, when you say it's bad to say Hitler had aura, I disagree.
[3:19] Well, I'm not saying necessarily it's bad.
[3:22] I'm saying that you understand that, like, that is going to be something that might make a lot of people go, oh, yeah, I don't want to deal with that guy.
[3:29] But here's where I would push back in a sense is, you know, as a white person, like, why is it that the Holocaust is so toxic?
[3:38] It's because, you know, Jews sort of made it that way.
[3:41] Like, we don't look at the whole of Delmar the same way.
[3:44] We don't look at China.
[3:44] And you know all these arguments.
[3:46] Well, no, I think that's a totally legitimate argument.
[3:48] It's something I've been saying for years, too.
[3:49] I think the idea that Jews have a monopoly on World War II is, like, insane.
[3:56] Or that anybody should, you know, like,
[4:00] prioritize past Jewish suffering over other sufferings.
[4:04] I mean, like, yeah, the horrible thing happened, you know.
[4:07] So wait, can I just.
[4:08] Sure, go ahead.
[4:09] So, you know, when I say Hitler had aura, I'm trying to basically set a new paradigm where, you know, it's like as Americans and moreover as white people, it's like that doesn't have the same impact on us emotionally.
[4:23] It's not necessarily.
[4:24] We only feel like that way because of movies, because of museums, because of propagandizing.
[4:29] And, you know, so.
[4:30] So when I look at, like, Larry Fink, Bill Ackman, David and Larry Ellison, I look at them as part of a corporate entity.
[4:37] Like, they're not individuals that happen to be Jewish.
[4:40] They are the Jews.
[4:41] They're organized.
[4:42] They work together.
[4:43] And as an American, I basically want to take power from them and give it back to Americans.
[4:49] And that necessarily is going to make them weaker and more vulnerable as a community.
[4:55] And, you know, so when they say that's anti-Semitic, it's like, of course.
[4:59] Everything that's taking power from them to give it to us is going to inherently, like, bolster the narrative that they're becoming more vulnerable.
[5:07] But it's a necessary part of getting power.
[5:09] Yeah, I kind of get what you say.
[5:11] Like, I used to say it like I used to say that as long as you like, if you translate the words right, that like Hillary Clinton is telling the truth, you know, like in a sense, like, like when you go like, like, they'd be like Hezbollah is a threat.
[5:25] And the truth is that Hezbollah is a threat to Israel's ability to occupy.
[5:29] Southern Lebanon.
[5:30] Right.
[5:30] They leave that part out of it.
[5:31] You know, they say, like, Iran is a threat.
[5:34] It's a threat to the American empire.
[5:36] Like, it's a threat to.
[5:37] Yes, this is.
[5:37] So in that sense, you know, like Hillary Clinton, the famous one where she said, I think it was that Vladimir Putin has put his troops right up on NATO's doorstep.
[5:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[5:47] This just shows you, like, the mentality.
[5:48] But, like, he's not lying in a way.
[5:50] Right.
[5:50] So I would say this is how I look at it.
[5:52] I think that in the same sense that right wing Christians in America were convinced that it was in their.
[5:59] Interest to go overthrow Saddam Hussein because, you know, he was going to give the nukes he didn't have off to the terrorists who weren't friends with him or whatever the line exactly was.
[6:08] I think in I think a very similar dynamics going on with Jews and Israelis.
[6:12] I think that they're really when if you look at the position Israel was in, say, three years and a day ago, there's you.
[6:22] They have by far the most sophisticated, most advanced military in the Middle East.
[6:28] They have the support of all the.
[6:30] Most powerful governments in the world.
[6:32] They have a bunch of atomic weapons.
[6:35] They have like they're in a pretty good.
[6:36] They have now engendered so much hatred around the world that they're probably in the most vulnerable spot they've ever been.
[6:43] They've done it to themselves.
[6:45] So I think in a very similar sense, it's really actually not in Jewish interest.
[6:50] And I think that's kind of bearing out right now across the culture.
[6:53] This was all this was the worst thing you could do if you cared about, like, protecting Jews or not stoking up hatred against them.
[7:01] And so I look at it more like even when you're these guys like Bill Ackman or George Soros or people like that.
[7:07] But, yeah, you're pointing to people who are in the club.
[7:09] I mean, George Soros is essentially a wing of the CIA.
[7:13] I was literally just the other day because I was looking up where I was doing an episode on General Wesley Clark in response to the latest hit piece on me from the free press today or preceding it, I guess.
[7:25] And I was like, I was like, I got to look up Sudan.
[7:28] You know, like that's the one country on this list that I just haven't read.
[7:31] I don't know if I've read enough about like I've read a little bit about it, but not nearly enough like though, which is the for people like me and you who read books, which, by the way, does put you in the top one percent of political commentators already.
[7:41] The thing is, you're just always behind, you know, like there's always ten books you're supposed to read that you haven't read yet.
[7:46] And you're like, God damn it.
[7:47] You're so aware of what you don't know, you know, and then someone who knows absolutely nothing is like, you don't know what you're talking about.
[7:52] You're like, I know, I don't know what I'm talking about.
[7:54] I know. But, you know, nothing of what you're talking about.
[7:56] But anyway, so I was like, I literally just Googled it.
[7:59] I was like, so what?
[8:00] I know that they broke up.
[8:01] Like, and I didn't even know who was involved in it.
[8:03] I know the southern part of Sudan broke off and there was a civil war.
[8:05] There's like, let me have someone like so I just like literally Google Sudan secession, civil war, something like that.
[8:12] Like the first thing Google gives me is like the George Soros open society.
[8:17] Why southern Sudan needs their independence?
[8:19] And you're like, oh, OK, here we go.
[8:21] But if you really when you look at it, right, and this is true in the Israel lobby itself, it's not all Jews.
[8:28] It is overwhelming.
[8:30] Large amount of Jews.
[8:31] And like the neoconservatives were like 80 percent Jewish.
[8:35] I think, you know, there were Catholics and even some Protestants in there.
[8:39] But even the neoconservatives, right, like they were essentially all of George W. Bush's men.
[8:46] You know, like the Jews all throughout his administration, they were all neoconservatives.
[8:50] But like the boss was George W. Bush.
[8:52] Dick Cheney, I think, really was the boss.
[8:54] Rumsfeld, Condi Rice, Colin Powell.
[8:56] These are all non-Jews.
[8:58] It seems much more to me that there's a big club.
[9:01] There's a lot of Jews in there and there's non-Jews in there as well and that they are screwing everybody over.
[9:08] So it just seems to me to be more accurate and precise and not carry any of the baggage that makes people think like you just, you know, are animated by racial hatred.
[9:17] And it's just more precise to just be like, no, it's this network of people.
[9:21] And even when you're looking at like, you know, something like it's, you know, it's difficult and we are all guilty of this at some point of like assuming the conclusion of starting the argument with the end result that we have.
[9:32] So even when you look at like, okay, well, this Jew is pursuing this strategy or this one is pursuing this strategy.
[9:37] The overwhelming majority of Jews are pursuing the same strategy that most people are pursuing, which is like, I want to, I don't know, I want to raise my kids.
[9:47] I want to have decent health care.
[9:49] I want to have a decent life.
[9:50] I want to hang out with my buddy.
[9:51] I want to, I don't think they're pursuing these grand political strategies.
[9:54] I mean, no more so than anybody is who just like they have their predisposition to like, I'm liberal or I'm conservative or I'm this.
[10:02] Certainly, I would grant.
[10:03] Jews are probably less likely to go down a path of Jew hatred for obvious reasons, but I just don't.
[10:09] I think that it's much more like there are these group of powerful people.
[10:13] They are, by the way, the entire machinery, I think, is actually, I don't know if I want to say it's more based on business than ideology, but business is like a huge, huge factor in all of this, right?
[10:25] Like, it's not as if the Zionists weren't able to gain so much control of the American military machine.
[10:33] Because.
[10:34] Because simply they tricked everybody or something.
[10:37] It's because it was good for business.
[10:39] You know, and you can watch this.
[10:40] I mean, they went, all the neocons went and they made their independent relationships with the military industrial complex.
[10:45] Look at all those Bill Kristol think tanks.
[10:47] And, you know, who's funding that think tank?
[10:49] Oh, look at that.
[10:50] Lockheed Martin.
[10:51] Ain't that a coincidence?
[10:52] Right.
[10:52] And so in the same way that, you know, like there are, say, thinkers like John Rawls or John Maynard Keynes, who are like beloved.
[11:05] Figures in Washington.
[11:06] But it's not because any of them read the books or care about the argument.
[11:09] It's just that they prescribed more power for Washington, D.C.
[11:12] And so Washington, D.C. is like, you made an excellent point.
[11:15] You know, it's not like anyone there was like they were reading Hayek or something and then reading, you know, Rawls and going, this guy's arguments are superior.
[11:22] It's just good for business, man.
[11:24] That's a big part of it, at least.
[11:26] Well, and I don't disagree at all, because that's sort of the nature of institutions are self-perpetuating.
[11:32] You know, they'll prescribe themselves bigger budgets and more emissions.
[11:34] And so I totally agree with that.
[11:36] That's the professional managerial class.
[11:38] Right.
[11:38] They do.
[11:39] Right.
[11:40] But where I would push back is saying that, you know, let's say, for example, like Larry Ellison.
[11:46] Larry Ellison is second richest guy in the world.
[11:49] They're buying the media.
[11:50] Him and his son are buying TikTok.
[11:52] They're buying CBS.
[11:53] Who does he put in charge of CBS?
[11:55] Bari Weiss.
[11:56] Bari Weiss was helped by Hazoni and Brett Stevens.
[12:00] It's like that very clearly is a Jewish club.
[12:03] And they're cutting through society.
[12:05] And, yeah.
[12:06] Yeah.
[12:06] Yeah.
[12:06] Yeah.
[12:06] They run in other elites circles.
[12:08] And, yeah, they have their accomplices that are not Jewish.
[12:11] Even, you know, look at the Trump administration.
[12:13] Trump brokered that deal.
[12:14] He's a Gentile.
[12:15] But he got money from Miriam Adelson.
[12:18] And his grandchildren are Jewish because his son-in-law is Jewish.
[12:21] And it's like it's almost like that exception doesn't prove the rule.
[12:25] You're right about the Vulcans, you know, Condi and Bush and all them.
[12:29] They're Gentiles, too.
[12:30] But it's like it seems that society is always being pushed by this organized minority.
[12:36] Because you're right.
[12:38] There are Rawlsian liberals that are white and there are, you know, evangelical Christians that are white that are neocons.
[12:45] But it just seems like the Jews being because by definition, they're organized in a way that nobody else is like Bush is not organized as a white guy or even very much as a Christian.
[12:56] But you do have like a world Zionist Congress.
[12:59] You do have a world Jewish Congress.
[13:00] You have the, you know, conference of major American Jewish organizations.
[13:04] I don't even think people realize the extent to which Jews are organized.
[13:07] In community centers by Hubbard in university with their fraternities and in business and in their localities.
[13:15] It's like they're extremely organized.
[13:17] And as far as the average Jew is concerned, yeah, they're not running the banks.
[13:22] I don't think your average Jew is like a spy.
[13:26] But I do think that your average Jew is inherently distrusting of like patriotism and nationalism.
[13:33] It's like Sarah Silverman said when she saw her white boyfriend put a American flag.
[13:38] Pulling her lawn, she said, reminded her of Hitler.
[13:40] How many Jews that attitude prevalent when they saw Trump, they thought the same thing fascism.
[13:46] They said it could not happen here.
[13:48] It's sort of that same attitude.
[13:50] And and I think here is what I will concede.
[13:54] I think that we me by we, I mean, me, if my movement wants to have power and really put America first, it means we are going to have to sideline by definition Jews that put the Jewish nation first.
[14:08] No, I think that's.
[14:09] I mean, Christians, too, for that matter.
[14:11] I mean, I disagree.
[14:12] I think America, I think Christians, I'm saying Christians who put Israel first.
[14:16] Oh, yeah, because which there are plenty of and there is a huge, huge part of this because you talk about the kind of organization.
[14:23] But I think that's very true for evangelical Christians who are constantly having preachers, you know, tell them that, like, this is your duty is to have this political outlook.
[14:33] There's tens of millions of them in the country.
[14:35] Yeah, like, look, you can always again.
[14:37] You can always say, well, that's the Jews manipulating.
[14:39] Them.
[14:39] But again, it just seems like this is presuming the conclusion.
[14:42] It's like we are.
[14:43] Are we not being manipulated, though?
[14:45] And of course, of course.
[14:47] No, I'm not denying that.
[14:48] I'm just saying it's not just Jews at the top of the doing the manipulation.
[14:51] And I agree.
[14:51] But that's where that's where I have to come in as a Christian white American and say we have to disentangle these things and say and yeah, wake up evangelicals and say, look, this is not your American.
[15:02] You're Christian.
[15:03] They are not Christian.
[15:04] They are not American.
[15:05] It is not in our interest.
[15:06] We have to take our own side.
[15:07] I think that there's the.
[15:09] Perhaps because you're a Christian and I'm Jewish.
[15:12] But when when you go when you're talking about evangelical Christians, although not Catholics like yourself, you go, well, we got to wake them up and make them realize that.
[15:18] And I feel the same way about Jews in general.
[15:20] We got to wake them up and be like, you're not about to be Holocaust and you don't need to support this in order to avoid one.
[15:26] And that's much tougher to do when everybody on Twitter is saying the Holocaust never happened.
[15:31] But if it did, it was good and it should happen again or something like that.
[15:33] So that would be that.
[15:35] Let's let's do.
[15:36] I just always completely lose track of time on these things.
[15:39] Let's talk about Charlie Kirk.
[15:40] Yeah, a little bit, because there was me and you both, as I mentioned, have gotten a bunch of heat for not like immediately jumping to these these conspiracy theories.
[15:51] Although I like, as I've said the whole time, I'm like, I'm I'm open to it.
[15:54] Like, show me what you got.
[15:57] I do, though, think and I've talked about this a bit on my show.
[16:01] I know you have on yours as well.
[16:02] I do think that the story of Charlie Kirk, though, and his relationship with Israel is really interesting.
[16:07] Yeah.
[16:08] Like so.
[16:08] Aside from.
[16:09] The conspiracy stuff.
[16:10] And I guess that my my friend, Candace, who your dear friend to a big fan.
[16:16] Yeah, I she just last night released evidently some screenshots of a group chat where Charlie had said, you know, he was very frustrated with a Jewish donor who, I guess, had pulled some money from him.
[16:30] And he had said something about, like, I'm going to not be able to be a Israel supporter anymore.
[16:35] Certainly doesn't tell you anything pointing to his his.
[16:39] His murder.
[16:40] But it does certainly show you that, like, if if that's true and I'm assuming Candace, like, isn't posting a screenshot that's made up, I think Candace has more integrity than that.
[16:52] So if that's true, man, Josh Hammer and these guys have been being really dishonest about what really happened with Charlie Kirk.
[17:01] And I will tell you this story.
[17:03] I don't know if you've heard this before.
[17:04] I apologize to the fans because I have told them this before.
[17:06] But so my my only experience where I debated Josh Hammer twice.
[17:09] I think I was telling you this.
[17:11] That's why.
[17:11] And then we got distracted.
[17:13] But so the second time I debate him is that this Charlie Kirk event and the whole time Charlie Kirk was just like, look, I really want to keep this civil and not be a mudslinging thing.
[17:20] And I go, absolutely no problem.
[17:22] I think I'm very much like you in that sense.
[17:25] I think we're very similar that we're both kind of guys who actually really do care about the ideas and the issues.
[17:31] And if you approach us with, like, let's debate these, it will it will 100 percent of the time be a substantive conversation.
[17:37] However, if you want to be vicious, we're also OK with playing that game.
[17:41] Like and you're like, I will be more vicious than you.
[17:43] I mean, maybe not you, but just about everybody else.
[17:45] You're not going to, you know, and like maybe I should be a little more mature than that at this age.
[17:49] But that is how I am.
[17:51] But so I went, sure, no problem.
[17:53] So we go in the back, we're in like the green rooms, me and Charlie and his I'm blanking on his name, but his guy who's the guy on his show now, who's kind of like his right hand man, that Andrew Colvin.
[18:03] Yes, yes, I believe that was him.
[18:06] So the three of us and we talked for a while and then Josh Hammer came in and we're just talking.
[18:11] You know, everybody's just being friendly and talking.
[18:13] We were kind of talking about every issue except Israel, you know, because, like, we're about to go debate that sort of time at immigration and start talking about family stuff at one point, just like everyone having a nice conversation.
[18:23] And, you know, and there's like, OK, we're going to go have this debate.
[18:27] And I was I was not sure what I was walking into there.
[18:30] Like it was which it was very, very interesting because like half the crowd might have been like your people.
[18:36] I mean, like it was like it was at a Charlie Kirk event.
[18:38] It was striking that it was like I mean, or it's just like my people.
[18:41] But I came out.
[18:41] The first thing Charlie says when I come out on the stage, he introduces me and goes, oh, we got a lot of Dave Smith fans.
[18:46] Like he was kind of surprised that like half the crowd was thrilled to see me there.
[18:51] And then like 20 percent of them hated my fucking gut.
[18:54] But it was 20 percent to half.
[18:55] Like it was clearly the majority was because it's young people, man.
[18:58] And that's where they are right now.
[19:00] But so Josh Hammer goes out there after this and he has the first opening.
[19:04] And the final thing he says in his opening is that he's disgusted to be sharing a stage with me.
[19:09] And I just thought there was something about it.
[19:11] I was like, what a fucking snake you are.
[19:15] There's the last communication I ever had with Charlie Kirk was me texting him.
[19:19] What a fucking snake that guy was after all that.
[19:22] And then Charlie just said something diplomatic.
[19:23] That was like it was aggressive or something like that.
[19:27] But I just thought I'm like a dude level.
[19:29] And I guess maybe this is part of the reason why me and you always kind of had like a mutual respect and liked each other.
[19:33] There's just something where you're like, who does that?
[19:36] Yeah, like who the fuck does that?
[19:37] Like you're so comfortable being duplicitous that you'd sit there.
[19:38] Like if I were about if I was about to go on a show with you right now and do this and be like, I'm disgusted that you're across the table.
[19:47] I wouldn't have had that 20 minutes of nice chat with you.
[19:50] It would have been like, no, we're doing it like that.
[19:53] So anyway, I say all of that to just say, I don't trust that guy one little bit.
[19:58] I'm curious, what do you make of the new revelations or this dynamic with Charlie Karkat?
[20:03] It's a weird spot for you to be in being such a like, you know, rival and antagonist.
[20:06] Yeah.
[20:07] Yeah.
[20:08] You're like the antagonist of a person and then they're killed in this horrible way and so it's a weird spot.
[20:13] But yeah, what are your thoughts on this latest?
[20:15] Well, you know, I agree with how you said it, which is, look, I mean, if someone other than Tyler Robinson killed Charlie Kirk, I'd, of course, be very interested in that.
[20:24] But I just don't see evidence for that.
[20:26] And people are trying to.
[20:28] It's like anything.
[20:29] In hindsight, you can look at every person's reaction in the crowd and say they're a decoy or an operative, whatever.
[20:35] There's really nothing hard or conclusive about that.
[20:37] Hard or conclusive that proves anything other than that happened yet.
[20:41] And I'm open to possibilities.
[20:43] What is interesting but a different conversation may be related is the Israel thing.
[20:49] And I think very clearly, as you and Tucker and Candace and others have said, Max Blumenthal said, there's ample evidence that at the minimum there was something dynamic there.
[21:00] He was a pro-Israel guy for many years.
[21:02] Now seems like that was in flux.
[21:04] And a lot of the evidence has kind of been knocked out.
[21:07] Does Bill Ackman retreat?
[21:09] You know, Bill Ackman produced the texts and Charlie arranged the whole thing.
[21:13] And it was a forum where I'm sure disagreement was expressed, but it showed generally they were still aligned.
[21:19] More interesting was his interview with Megyn Kelly where clearly he platformed Tucker and you.
[21:26] And it seemed that supporting Israel was in contention, which they hate that that's even on the table.
[21:31] Because it matters how you set the table.
[21:33] It doesn't necessarily even matter what your position is.
[21:35] But they don't want that to be up front.
[21:36] They don't want that to be up for debate.
[21:38] Do we support Israel?
[21:39] Not a question they want people to ask.
[21:41] Especially when you're losing the debate.
[21:43] You know, I mean, that doesn't help either.
[21:45] Yeah, especially when you get booed and killed in the debate.
[21:48] They don't like that either.
[21:50] And so even that, they were really pushing back on Charlie, threatening, I guess, the new revelation is they took the money.
[21:58] They took the $2 million.
[22:00] It's a pretty big organization, but that's not a negligible chunk of change for Charlie in Turning Point, USA.
[22:05] And he goes in the group chat.
[22:07] And assuming, like you said, that it's authentic, you know, that is, I think, the most stark thing we've heard from him on the record.
[22:14] Where he says, I have to leave the Israel camp.
[22:17] And I would say that's even different than what he said on Megyn Kelly.
[22:20] Because on Megyn Kelly, he said, oh, you're going to call me an anti-Semite?
[22:24] He goes, he sort of stopped himself.
[22:26] He said, well, you're going to lose me.
[22:28] That's what he was going towards.
[22:29] He said, you're not going to lose me.
[22:31] He goes, but I'm going to be deflated.
[22:33] In that text, he says, I'm out.
[22:35] And I would characterize that as I was his rival.
[22:38] And I'm very cynical about him.
[22:40] He was kind of caught between a rock and a hard place.
[22:44] He was really in the middle because, like you said, it's young people.
[22:47] They are Israel critical.
[22:49] And he had to go and defend the bullshit to them at the campus in the arena, in the pit.
[22:55] You know, so it's easy for them in the ivory tower to say, yeah, we love Israel still.
[22:59] He's actually having to get the shit.
[23:01] And a hundred groipers on the line saying, why do you still love Israel?
[23:04] And I think that he recognized that.
[23:06] He realized it became a liability and started to try and accommodate everybody.
[23:11] Tucker and the other side, Candace and the other side, the groiper, so to speak, or the Dave Smith people and the other side.
[23:17] And the other side wasn't having it.
[23:19] They said, you better get the fucking line or we're pulling the plug.
[23:22] And I think he defiantly said, I will not be bullied.
[23:25] I thought that was it would have been interesting to see where that would have went.
[23:28] But sadly, we'll never know.
[23:30] Yeah, no, I completely agree.
[23:32] And I've always you know, I kind of took.
[23:34] I took what he was saying.
[23:36] I read like a little differently than I guess some people did.
[23:39] Like I thought I always thought the dynamic with Charlie Kirk was kind of that that it was like, look, he's the guy who has to keep the young people on board.
[23:47] And he's by by definition, he has to be a big tent guy because he's trying to win.
[23:52] You know, he's in a different game than me.
[23:54] And you are, you know, like there's it's a it's a whole different thing to be like, like we're in the business of telling the truth as we see it.
[24:02] We're in the business of breaking down the ideas and how we view them.
[24:05] And as you said, at times, even like stretching the Overton window and maybe even accepting that, like, I'm going to be speaking to the remnant.
[24:12] I'm going to be speaking to one group of people.
[24:14] But hopefully this group will move the broader conversation.
[24:18] A very different thing to be doing a get out the vote campaign.
[24:21] You need everybody involved.
[24:22] And I think that he like I think Josh Hammer is not lying when he says he was doing everything to keep you out.
[24:30] Like that was that was the goal is like we are going to cut the line here.
[24:34] But just with the new dynamic.
[24:35] The new dynamics of where politics is now in this real like a revolution in media that we've mean you have both been living through and being, you know, active participants in.
[24:44] It was like, OK, but you're you're big enough at this point that like, OK, cutting Nick Fuentes out and then everything else, the big tent.
[24:53] OK, you maybe could pull that off.
[24:55] But you're asking Tucker and Megyn Kelly, too.
[24:58] And I think charges was the tent.
[25:00] Now it's like there's no way this works.
[25:02] And so I almost took it when he was saying, I have to do that.
[25:05] As going, I'm going to have no other choice to keep turning.
[25:09] And of course, this is the rock in the hard place, right?
[25:11] Because you couldn't be anti-Israel and run an organization like Turning Point.
[25:14] But also you couldn't be pro-Israel and run an organization like Turning Point anymore because you need the kids and you need the donors.
[25:20] And so there's this this.
[25:21] And I think that, you know, like it's it did seem that essentially like his calculation, it seems to me I'm speculating a little bit, but that his calculation was like, OK, well, I'll I'll have Tucker.
[25:34] And I'll I'll let David.
[25:35] And I'll I'll let Dave do this debate.
[25:37] And then I can be seen as like, hey, look, I'm I'm facilitating the conversation.
[25:41] I'll do all this.
[25:42] But that was way too far for the back.
[25:44] They were like, you know, what are you kidding me?
[25:46] Like, I mean, these are the people who like they thought when Mom Donnie say a million things about the guy, he's probably going to be very bad for the city that we're currently in right now.
[25:56] You know, and also is just like very cringy and awful in a lot of ways.
[25:59] But the fact that he said with which why this is coming up in a New York City mayoral debate.
[26:04] What do you favor?
[26:05] What do you favor?
[26:06] A one state solution or a two state solution?
[26:08] Like, what the hell does this have to do with New York City?
[26:10] But he goes, I favor one state with equal rights for all.
[26:13] And they went, you know, like that was supposed to be the guy like in what world is the bad guy?
[26:20] The guy who's going, I think everyone should have equal rights.
[26:23] It's just but but so to them, there is no distinction between any of of us.
[26:29] You know what I mean?
[26:30] Like, it's all kind of the same thing.
[26:32] And yeah, I don't know.
[26:33] It is.
[26:34] It is very interesting because there's something, you know, there's something revealing about the fact that even say people like Megyn Kelly and Charlie Kirk will get the same type of treatment when they step out of line.
[26:48] Right?
[26:49] Yeah.
[26:50] No, I totally agree.
[26:51] And people are, I think, misreading it a little bit like he was this.
[26:54] It's such an important point you made that we do something different because when we go on our shows, we say, I think I feel he didn't really have that luxury.
[27:03] Right.
[27:04] Because he was not in the business.
[27:05] He was in the business actually of telling it like he sees that he was in the business of it was more political, getting everybody to vote, keeping everybody happy, pushing directionally in a right towards the right.
[27:19] And so when people say he was going to be this rebel, he had this epiphany.
[27:23] He just had to get it out.
[27:24] I don't think that's it.
[27:25] I think, like you said, he was put in an impossible situation because the underlying reality had changed.
[27:31] The underlying political dynamic.
[27:33] The underlying youth are what they are and the donors are what they are.
[27:37] And as a matter of fact, I don't think he left Israel.
[27:41] I think Israel left him.
[27:42] And that's sort of what the text said.
[27:44] He said, they leave me with no choice.
[27:46] Yeah.
[27:47] After they pulled the money, they said, we cannot tolerate.
[27:51] So we're taking the money.
[27:52] And he said, well, I'm not going to be held hostage by your money.
[27:55] I have to side with the ever growing tend to people that are either indifferent or critical or anti or whatever.
[28:02] And so that is how I read it.
[28:03] And and I agree.
[28:05] I mean, to the broader point, even the earlier conversation, Israel is in a lot of trouble.
[28:11] It seems I was sort of skeptical.
[28:13] But this is very much in flux because it is the right wing youth.
[28:17] It's Tucker.
[28:18] It's Megyn Kelly.
[28:19] It's Charlie Kirk.
[28:20] It's France.
[28:21] It's Portugal.
[28:22] It's U.K.
[28:23] It's Canada.
[28:24] It's like most of America.
[28:26] And, you know, I guess the question is, what's on the other side of it?
[28:31] If they win?
[28:32] Well, they will have unprecedented power.
[28:34] With Iran out of the picture, they'll be an enormously powerful, maybe the regional power in the Middle East.
[28:40] If they lose or if they don't get everything they want, then they might be in more peril than ever before.
[28:46] And I guess the remaining thing is kind of where it goes from here with Trump, you know, because it's so weird how everything in a sense.
[28:55] I don't believe that they killed Charlie Kirk.
[28:57] And yet his death by revealing what it did is going to play a big role in this conversation, because like you said, it shows.
[29:04] That the right wing is literally breaking up over this, like this issue is forcing this contradiction.
[29:11] And that contradiction is splitting the right, which is the ruling party in the middle of the U.N.
[29:18] Meeting in the middle of the peace deal that's about to blow up.
[29:22] It's like I think when all is said and done, we look at this two year period.
[29:25] It will contribute to that larger conversation.
[29:27] And then, you know, where's Trump going to go with that?
[29:30] He's the decider.
[29:31] Well, that's right.
[29:32] And I thought it was so interesting.
[29:33] Like the.
[29:34] The 12 day war, as it's been dubbed, which, you know, is we seem to be at halftime of.
[29:41] But there is, you know, like that was such an interesting dynamic because I've just never seen anything like that in politics before.
[29:47] And I've you know, I've been paying attention to politics for almost 20 years now.
[29:52] And and I've read a lot about, you know, before that time that I was paying attention and like it would be on the level of like if Barack Obama launched a war.
[30:02] And.
[30:03] And Rachel Maddow.
[30:05] And you know what I mean?
[30:06] All that.
[30:07] We're like, oh, no, we are not supporting this.
[30:10] Or George W. Bush and Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity were both like screw that.
[30:14] And you just never really seen a dynamic like that before.
[30:16] What can you do here?
[30:18] You're actually kind of limited in your options.
[30:20] And so, yeah, I mean, it's there's just so much of this stuff is like we're we're just we're in a new experiment right now.
[30:28] We've never really had this level of uncontrolled.
[30:33] You know, media.
[30:35] And I just do think that support for the Israeli government and not not the existence of an Israeli government, but support for the current Israeli government and what they do was totally dependent on a controlled media environment.
[30:51] They simply can't survive in an uncontrolled media environment.
[30:55] And I do think that, you know, these young people, you're talking to them.
[30:58] None of them get their news from the corporate media anymore.
[31:01] They are all listening to our shows.
[31:03] And it's almost like no matter what corner of, say, the Internet media that you're in, you've I mean, you've just seen the debates have happened so many times.
[31:16] Like, Piers Morgan has hosted so many of these debates.
[31:19] I did one on Joe Rogan.
[31:20] There's been on Lex Friedman on.
[31:22] I thought you debated Dinesh D'Souza on that.
[31:24] And every single time it's it's almost always the exact same thing.
[31:29] I mean, like, I watched your I'd seen clips of it, but I watched the full thing earlier today.
[31:33] And such a one side.
[31:36] Like, I mean, and by the way, Dinesh, his stock went up in my book just from, like, the way he handled it.
[31:41] You know, I thought, like, I appreciated that.
[31:43] But, like, on the substance of it, you just it's not even fair, man.
[31:48] You're like one of these times I should have to switch and argue your side because it's just too ridiculous.
[31:53] So fucking indefensible.
[31:54] And you got to sit here and pretend like it's just I'm sorry, you're not going to.
[31:58] And so we're just left in a situation now where, you know, the the young people.
[32:03] The young people have just they've all woken up to the shit.
[32:06] And there's really no putting it away after that.
[32:08] Yeah.
[32:09] And what's what's sort of unnerving is like, you know, if they can't put it back in the bottle, which, you know, they're going to try and they are trying.
[32:17] That's what this tick tock and CBS and even, you know, they're not even taking it at CBS.
[32:22] Like, everybody knows what that is.
[32:23] Everybody.
[32:24] I saw all the presenters on, like, 60 Minutes were leaking to the press how much they hate Barry Weiss.
[32:30] And, you know, they don't want to go along with all this.
[32:32] It's like it.
[32:33] It becomes almost scary because Netanyahu has been in power for almost two decades.
[32:38] And in a sense, it's like this is sort of a modern situation.
[32:43] The war on terror, the Middle East, Netanyahu, the ascendancy of Likud, the neocons.
[32:49] This is like the past twenty five, thirty years.
[32:51] And it seems to sort of be sunsetting like Netanyahu.
[32:54] If this war ends for better, for worse, he's going to be out and he will not.
[32:59] Whoever his successor is will not be able to keep the coalition together as well as he does.
[33:03] So maybe their influence diminishes there.
[33:06] The media environment is not centralized anymore, so they don't influence that either.
[33:10] In the last legs of whatever this period can be called that this go for broke moment.
[33:17] What scares me is how desperate they're going to get.
[33:20] And I think that's where it maybe it makes sense.
[33:23] They killed Charlie Kirk because there's some recognition they are that desperate.
[33:27] Like it is.
[33:28] That is a desperate hour for them when they're losing absolutely everybody isolated.
[33:32] They're not winning the debate.
[33:33] They can't win it with the soft power, censorship, suppression, the rest of it.
[33:38] Do they then resort to total chaos crisis?
[33:41] You know, these kinds of operations that, you know, because it's sort of like the emperor has no clothes.
[33:47] Like you said, in our lifetimes, we've never seen something like this.
[33:51] Can they lose?
[33:52] Will they tolerate losing?
[33:54] What does that actually look like?
[33:56] And I think that's going to be resolved in the next like six months.
[33:59] So it's going to be kind of freaky.
[34:01] Yeah.
[34:02] You know, the example I use is that they say, like, when a woman in an abusive relationship tries to leave the husband, that's the most dangerous time.
[34:09] Like, that's when he might kill you is when you try to leave.
[34:11] Even though it's the right thing to do, you know, it's like that is the most dangerous time.
[34:15] And so you do.
[34:16] I mean, I think it's something we should all be kind of aware of is like, how do you manage that situation?
[34:25] Exactly.
[34:26] And, you know, you always kind of want to even in these really awful situations, you want to kind of leave the door open.
[34:32] In a way, like, you know, you have to find a way for Netanyahu to be able to declare victory or whatever and say, you know, save face to stop kind of doing what he's doing.
[34:44] But it is.
[34:46] Look, it's like you said, there's just no, you know, I remember thinking this when they were really trying to cancel Rogan during the COVID stuff because he was like heroically telling the truth about it.
[34:59] And I remember even thinking, you're like, so what?
[35:01] Let's say this works.
[35:02] You get Joe.
[35:04] What do you think?
[35:05] All his listeners are going back to Don Lemon.
[35:07] Like, whether they take you out, they take me out.
[35:09] Do you think all the people we talk to or what's their next step?
[35:12] Like, it's not like they're going back into the matrix or whatever.
[35:16] Like, that's not happening.
[35:17] And it is, I think, because I want to talk about Trump a little bit, too.
[35:23] And J.D. Vance likes to talk about the kind of future of the Republicans a bit.
[35:28] But it is just this weekend.
[35:31] This past weekend.
[35:32] I went through like a real interesting little moment where Donald Trump in one more example where he's clearly frustrated with Netanyahu and, you know, goes and finally says it, you know, after all this time finally says Israel must stop bombing Gaza immediately.
[35:50] Now, I don't know.
[35:51] I know they're claiming like reading up the latest of this stuff.
[35:55] Like Dave DeCamp is always the best guy to read for what the latest, you know, news on the ground is.
[36:01] And they're claiming they've stopped some of the bombings.
[36:05] But like they did.
[36:06] There was a lot of offensives going on over the weekend.
[36:09] They killed like something like 70 Palestinians on Saturday and then 40 on Sunday or something like that.
[36:14] And so you're like, OK.
[36:16] But I think I was saying this on my last episode.
[36:18] I think in a way, the more revealing thing is that, first of all, we likely assume Israel is just going to continue doing what they're doing.
[36:26] But even forget that.
[36:27] We know for a fact that even if they did, nothing would change.
[36:31] Even if Donald Trump.
[36:32] Even if Donald Trump says you must stop doing this now, nothing will change if they continue to do it.
[36:38] And that to me is so obviously indefensible that like you have a country who is propping up another country and that this country's commander in chief has zero influence over telling them to stop what they're doing.
[36:52] They don't even feel, you know, there was a blank on who it was, but it was someone high up in the government who said they said, well, we have no ceasefire in place.
[37:01] Essentially, meaning we could keep doing this.
[37:03] We have not made a deal yet.
[37:05] And it's like, yeah, but the president of the United States told you to stop and you're dependent on him.
[37:09] So stop.
[37:10] I like, you know, so that's an outrage.
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[39:35] All right, let's get back into the show.
[39:37] More broadly speaking, I find this to be kind of interesting.
[39:40] So you, me and you, are actually opposite in terms of I think you voted for Trump in 16 and 20, not in 24.
[39:49] I didn't in 16 and 20, but did in 24.
[39:52] Really?
[39:53] Although I think we have a lot of the same critiques of him.
[39:55] We kind of saw that different.
[39:56] But how do you?
[39:57] I think at this point, I think you've been very, what's the word I'm looking for?
[40:03] I think you've been very unhampered about your criticism of Donald Trump.
[40:08] It seems to me like that's the appropriate thing to do now.
[40:11] I think there were like a few things where, you know, I felt like when Donald Trump first got in or right after the election was won, I tried to lead this like no Pompeo thing.
[40:24] Yeah, yeah.
[40:25] Of like being like no Pompeo.
[40:26] Like he had spoken at the last Trump rally.
[40:28] And so I was and I was talking like Tucker and like all these other guys.
[40:31] I was like, dude, we should all go all in on this.
[40:33] Like Pompeo and Haley and all these other people came out.
[40:36] And then he signed that letter saying Pompeo and Haley won't be in it.
[40:39] And then I was like, OK, not enough.
[40:41] All the neocons got to be kept out now, you know.
[40:43] And then Donald Trump Jr. like quote tweeted me and was like 100 percent.
[40:48] I'm on it.
[40:49] And there was a moment there where I was like, maybe, you know, like I actually maybe want to believe.
[40:54] I mean, and part of it.
[40:55] And I know it.
[40:56] I mean, I'm a libertarian.
[40:57] So, like, I know I've been through this.
[40:59] But, you know, I know all the talking points now.
[41:01] Nothing ever changes.
[41:02] There's no government solutions and blah, blah, all this.
[41:04] But I was like, you know what?
[41:05] They did try to arrest this guy.
[41:07] They did try to do more than arrest this guy.
[41:12] Maybe again, I'm not like I'm not trying to jump to.
[41:14] But there were some things about that that really just don't add up.
[41:16] I'm still very skeptical of the official story on that.
[41:21] But maybe maybe there's actually something.
[41:24] But, you know, after continuing to back Israel.
[41:28] You know, the Epstein thing was a big one.
[41:30] The Iran thing was like a death blow.
[41:32] It was just like and at this point, it's not like there's another election coming up.
[41:36] We already kind of know what the Trump thing is.
[41:38] We've gotten some small wins.
[41:40] I shouldn't.
[41:41] The border control is a big one.
[41:42] I shouldn't say that.
[41:43] That's not a small thing.
[41:44] He really did turn that around.
[41:45] He deserves credit for that.
[41:46] But everything else, Nick, everything else has just been a disaster.
[41:51] And so I don't know.
[41:52] I think we're in a similar place where it's like now.
[41:56] Fuck this.
[41:57] I mean, you can't.
[41:58] You just can't tell me that.
[41:59] It's like we have to just blindly support this while our country is still falling apart.
[42:03] Yeah.
[42:04] I mean, there's just no argument anymore.
[42:06] They're in twenty twenty four.
[42:08] When you guys just grab me a water.
[42:10] Sorry.
[42:11] Go ahead.
[42:12] Yeah.
[42:13] No.
[42:14] In twenty twenty four, there was at least this argument to be made that maybe it would be different this time.
[42:17] And like you said, you articulated the reasons why they tried to kill him.
[42:20] You know, they impeached him.
[42:22] They charged him.
[42:23] So the question was, is it going to be different this time?
[42:25] Did he learn?
[42:26] Is there going to be better people?
[42:27] And.
[42:28] And I get that.
[42:29] So I didn't like begrudge people that did vote for him.
[42:32] But there were signs, you know, Nikki Haley endorsed him and he said we were going to go to war with Iran.
[42:38] Basically, he said they were going to bring in the H1Bs and and all this stuff.
[42:42] And, you know, and then they appointed the cabinet within like three weeks.
[42:46] Rubio for secretary of state.
[42:48] And I guess the interesting thing I have to say beyond what is obvious, you know, which is that it's kind of crashing and burning is I.
[42:57] I look at a guy like Kurt Mills, you know, Kurt Mills.
[43:00] I'm kind of you know, he seems like he's a good guy, like he's 100 percent on board, maybe more with you than me.
[43:06] But like he knows irrelevant facts.
[43:08] And I remember watching him during the negotiation between Trump and or I should say Witkoff and Arachi or whoever it was on the Iranian side.
[43:18] And he would go on Steve Bannon every week and say any day now, like they're going to make a deal.
[43:24] And, you know, Netanyahu is going to be put in his place.
[43:27] And I'm thinking, have you ever seen anything in history?
[43:30] It never goes that way.
[43:32] Like and it never goes that way because, like you said before, it's sort of axiomatic.
[43:37] Trump is not willing to shut them down.
[43:40] He's just not willing to resist them or go there.
[43:42] He doesn't care enough for whatever the reason is.
[43:44] It's hard to know what's in his heart or in his mind.
[43:47] He won't do it. And then, you know, I think it was like three days before we went to war.
[43:52] He goes, you know, it's not on radar that Trump is going to attack Iran.
[43:55] That's not on radar.
[43:56] It's like, buddy, read the tea leaves.
[43:59] Like, of course he's going to go and bomb Iran.
[44:01] So and I kind of get where you're coming from about the Pompeo.
[44:05] I was even skeptical about the Pompeo thing.
[44:07] As I said, they got a list of these people they're going to put in.
[44:10] And and that's why I'm a big believer in like this.
[44:15] It's not even people say, are you going to vote for a Democrat?
[44:18] We got to think beyond that.
[44:20] To me, it's just about rejection.
[44:23] They set the table and you can't really choose what's on the table.
[44:25] But you could choose whether to eat or not, whether you're going to play the game.
[44:29] And so my my bigger idea is just reject.
[44:32] Like and I like what you said.
[44:34] It encapsulates that it's bullshit.
[44:36] No, thank you.
[44:38] You know, you're promising stuff.
[44:40] You know, you're not going to deliver when you put this stuff out there.
[44:43] The big, big, beautiful bill.
[44:46] One hundred fifty billion dollars for border enforcement.
[44:49] They're not deporting even a thousand people a day like it's nothing.
[44:52] And so I I just look at these guys like Dan Caldwell.
[44:55] Crying on Tucker at at Kurt Mills, all that kind of stuff.
[44:59] People saying we're going to hold their feet to the fire.
[45:02] We're going to pressure them.
[45:03] And I'm like, aren't you tired?
[45:05] We did that already.
[45:07] We did that in the first term because I was kind of in that place in the first term where it's like we're going to control the personnel.
[45:13] We're going to do this.
[45:14] And I knew people in the admin.
[45:16] I knew people on the campaign that didn't get hired because they were on the campaign because the people in the admin were from the Rubio campaign or the Bush campaign.
[45:24] And it's like, you know, we just need something that at the end of the day is what we want.
[45:30] Not a compromise.
[45:32] Not I know it's not how politics works, but we just need something that is going to that is promising and intends on delivering what we really care about.
[45:40] And Trump was never that, in my opinion.
[45:42] Yeah, no, I agree.
[45:44] And it's you know, it's a shame in a way.
[45:47] Is that my friend?
[45:48] Mine?
[45:49] Scott Horton always says the country needed Ron Paul and we got Donald Trump, which is.
[45:53] You know, kind of how I see it.
[45:55] Maybe you'd say more like Pat Buchanan or someone like that.
[45:58] But, you know, I think both of us would take either of those options if they were on the table.
[46:03] But it is, you know, and I do think I thought the Epstein one was a particular is interesting how much that really was devastating for Donald Trump.
[46:13] And it was more than just the Epstein story.
[46:15] I think it was like what that symbolized, what that you know, that it was like right at the heart of his political raison d'etre.
[46:23] Which was draining the swamp.
[46:24] Right.
[46:25] And it was like, come on, man.
[46:26] What's a better example of the swamp than this?
[46:28] Oh, we won't touch that.
[46:29] Okay.
[46:30] All right, then.
[46:31] So I guess we know how serious we are about this.
[46:34] And I got to say, I mean, I see nothing promising about J.D.
[46:39] Vance.
[46:40] I think my view of it seems to be that I do think that he's like maybe kind of sympathetic to like, you know, my foreign policy views.
[46:51] And I think that he does seem to air more.
[46:52] Yeah.
[46:53] On that side.
[46:54] But I just don't think he has anywhere near the stones to like stand up to anyone.
[46:58] I think he wants to be president more than he wants to care about that.
[47:01] And that right there is that that's the deal breaker then.
[47:04] Okay, then.
[47:05] So you're not going to get to your point, I think, which I would just maybe modify.
[47:08] And I think you probably agree with this, too.
[47:09] It's like, I'm not even against compromise.
[47:11] There's got to be a compromise.
[47:12] Yeah.
[47:13] It's got to be like a reasonable compromise.
[47:15] Like, I am willing to compromise on a few things.
[47:17] But the compromise can't be I have to bend over and grab my ankle.
[47:20] That's not a reasonable compromise that I'm trying to sign off on.
[47:22] So it's like, I just don't.
[47:25] And I wonder, because, you know, like, there's always two ways to look at this.
[47:30] And like the conventional political thinking, the Charlie Kirk thinking would be like, well,
[47:35] any dissension here only helps the Democrats.
[47:38] Right.
[47:39] So if we're not all rallying around them, then we get the Democrats who are the worst,
[47:42] you know, biggest threat.
[47:43] But of course, I think our rejoinder to that would be that like, well, no, not releasing
[47:49] the Epstein files is what gives the order.
[47:52] And when I say file.
[47:53] We're not getting to the bottom of it.
[47:54] That's what gives them that.
[47:55] And what is J.D.
[47:56] Vance going to run on?
[47:57] I mean, how is he going to capture that energy that Donald Trump had?
[48:00] We're furious with the system.
[48:01] The system is so corrupt and so dishonest and so such a betrayal to every American that
[48:08] we want someone to go in there and be a wrecking ball against them.
[48:11] How is he even possibly going to capture that energy?
[48:14] Right.
[48:15] When it was nobody's believing it anymore.
[48:17] Well, and with Trump, I feel like a lot of people just forgot really what he was.
[48:21] There were a lot.
[48:22] I feel like not a lot of people actually voted for him in 2016 that are around now.
[48:27] And you and I know because we both I mean, I you're around longer than me.
[48:31] But we were both around then.
[48:33] And I feel like there's a lot of young people and maybe even like big supporters of Trump
[48:37] now that weren't really with him in 16.
[48:40] And so what I'm trying to say is for a lot of people to have amnesia, they think that
[48:45] he's a Republican.
[48:46] He's a conservative, like because that's really what he's become.
[48:49] That is what he was in 20.
[48:51] That's what he was in 24.
[48:52] He's against the radical left.
[48:54] He's against the Democrats.
[48:55] But in 16, he started out fighting the Republican establishment.
[48:59] And he really ran as like an independent.
[49:01] Yeah.
[49:02] And I always go back to the proposition of Trump.
[49:05] This is my basis for not voting for him last year, which is not I'm better than the Democrats,
[49:11] which is the minimum.
[49:12] You're Republican.
[49:13] Well, he's better than Kamala.
[49:14] Okay.
[49:15] Isn't that a given?
[49:16] Like, shouldn't you be?
[49:17] It's not that he's a conservative or anything like that.
[49:20] He said the system is rigged and it's broken.
[49:25] I will break it because I'm rich.
[49:28] I'm so rich.
[49:29] I don't need to take their money.
[49:31] And if I don't have to take their money, I can actually deliver real change because
[49:34] I don't have to worry about upsetting them.
[49:36] That, in a nutshell, was the premise.
[49:38] And that was his appeal.
[49:40] He would go up on the stage and like you watch this now and you're like, where's this guy?
[49:44] That famous clip where he goes, they're booing him and he goes, that's all donors in the audience.
[49:49] I don't want their money.
[49:50] I don't want their money.
[49:51] I don't need their money.
[49:52] And everyone resonated right, left and center said, yeah, fuck the system.
[49:56] That's true.
[49:57] They're bought off.
[49:58] That's why nothing ever changes.
[50:00] He's rich.
[50:01] They can't buy him.
[50:02] That was the idea.
[50:03] Obviously wasn't true.
[50:05] Then now in 24, when he got 200 billion or 200 million from Tim Mellon and from Elon
[50:11] Musk and Ken Griffin and Marc Andreessen, the usual suspects.
[50:15] And with J.D.
[50:17] Vance, like you said, it's just even worse.
[50:19] It's disgusting.
[50:20] It's disgusting that anyone's even considering voting for him to me because it's like at least
[50:26] Trump had kind of a claim to be that guy because he was this like bombastic billionaire from
[50:32] the private sector.
[50:33] Vance is like your your prototypical political artifact, like a creation in the lab, like
[50:40] fake career, fake name, fake book patrons in the CIA.
[50:45] Like he's a nerd.
[50:46] He's not even really that conservative.
[50:48] You know, the fake conversion.
[50:50] Maybe he's a real convert, but it seems too convenient.
[50:53] Like he's everything that Trump ran against.
[50:56] He's like Jeb Bush.
[50:57] He was calling Trump a Nazi and voted for McMullen.
[51:00] And it was a never Trumper.
[51:01] So and I'm not unloading my case against him, but it's like they could not be more different.
[51:07] So to your point, how are you going to sell that?
[51:09] I don't know how any MAGA person is buying it, but I think they will.
[51:13] And there's another thing where, like, you know, the the vice presidency, you know, the
[51:18] role.
[51:19] It's an interesting job because there's really not a job.
[51:22] Exactly.
[51:23] But it makes you kind of like, oh, you're the next in line.
[51:26] But if you just remove that for a second, who would have ever thought J.D.
[51:30] Vance could carry a national election?
[51:32] J.D.
[51:33] Vance is not Donald Trump.
[51:34] Donald Trump is the most famous human being who's ever lived, who's bombastic and charismatic
[51:37] and just like owns a room like no other.
[51:39] Like, really, it's like as a unique gift in this way.
[51:42] Unfortunately, all of these gifts are only for like marketing and promotion and running.
[51:46] It's not like he's not.
[51:47] There is no governing ability at all.
[51:48] Right.
[51:49] But like, like, J.D.
[51:50] Vance doesn't have that.
[51:51] He doesn't have that factor.
[51:52] The Hitler aura.
[51:53] You know what I mean?
[51:54] But like, he just and so it's it's you're just looking at this and you go, so look,
[51:59] if you're telling me that, like, the the radical left Democrats are the real threat, which
[52:04] granted they are, it's like it seems like we're staring at them having a chance.
[52:08] Now, I guess the only thing and again, this is an interesting dynamic, one that I've never
[52:13] really seen before in my lifetime, is where you see when Donald Trump support like plummets
[52:18] it doesn't seem to give any boost to the Democrats who are still kind of just like in the in
[52:23] the tank.
[52:24] And I think part of that is just because they failed so miserably over the last few years.
[52:28] But I do think like to your broader point, I'm not even like saying one hundred percent
[52:32] one way or the other.
[52:33] But it's something that like I think people who are, you know, dissidents, broadly speaking,
[52:38] of this system and are, you know, in opposition to the current regime need to think about
[52:44] a lot.
[52:45] Because, yeah.
[52:47] Like, if our vote is.
[52:48] If our vote isn't a given, our support isn't a given, then it has to be worked for, you
[52:53] know, and also that it's things aren't always so clear.
[52:58] You know, like you could say Kamala Harris would have been worse than Donald Trump.
[53:01] Now, in the in this particular example, just on the border security, probably we're better
[53:06] off all things considered with Donald Trump.
[53:09] But at the same time, in a lot of ways, I think you could argue for right wing America,
[53:14] it was better that Joe Biden won the 2020 election.
[53:16] Yes.
[53:17] But things improved in a way that you really could not have imagined them improving under
[53:21] Donald Trump.
[53:22] And I mean, culturally speaking, like even after Donald Trump won in 2016, the culture
[53:26] didn't swing to the right.
[53:27] The culture swung even further to the left.
[53:29] The culture only started swinging back to the right when Joe Biden was in.
[53:32] It actually was easier when there was a brain dead president who represented the Democratic
[53:37] Party.
[53:38] And we had the wins, you know, in Twitter and stuff I was talking about with like Target
[53:43] and Bud Light and all this stuff.
[53:45] And so, like, it's just not so obvious.
[53:46] You know, it's not always so obvious that, you know, white men can't jump.
[53:53] Sometimes when you win, you actually lose.
[53:54] Sometimes when you lose, you actually win.
[53:55] And so I just think that, you know, I would hope like I hope maybe like Thomas Mathiel
[54:02] run in primary.
[54:05] I would at least hope that there's something that kind of like gets the conversation over
[54:09] like, no, actually, how about we expect you to be this?
[54:12] We expect you to actually be good and nothing crazy.
[54:13] I'm not even asking for it.
[54:14] This is why I corrected you on the no comment.
[54:15] Like, I'll compromise.
[54:17] Okay.
[54:18] But like, don't get us in another stupid war like, like, you know, make policy dictated
[54:22] off what's best for America.
[54:24] We have to do something about this debt problem and we have to at least attempt to tackle
[54:28] it because we're drowning it.
[54:29] And the answer can't just be continue to debase the currency is destroying our country.
[54:33] It's like and don't have a wide open border like I'm just like so few that like if you
[54:38] could just be good on these few things, I'd be like, okay, I'll hold my nose over the
[54:41] rest.
[54:42] But there's got to be some way.
[54:43] And especially now with the new media.
[54:45] Media landscape with the amount of influence that me and you have right now.
[54:49] I don't know.
[54:50] We've got some opportunities to say like, hey, no, no, we're not just going to go along
[54:53] with this.
[54:54] We ought to.
[54:55] We ought to plant a flag at like one reasonable point and go.
[54:58] We're not bending on this.
[54:59] Yeah, I totally agree.
[55:01] I think we need to throw our weight around and we'll have a much better opportunity to
[55:05] do that.
[55:06] Because in twenty eight, it's an open field on both sides.
[55:10] In twenty, sixteen, twenty, twenty four, Trump was like the ten thousand pound gorilla in
[55:14] the room.
[55:16] And, you know, all of us put together like no one was going to knock him off that trajectory,
[55:20] which is why I maybe was naive for me to, like, withhold the vote outside of like reasons
[55:24] and principle or for rhetoric.
[55:27] But in twenty eight, we can shape the race because, like you said, I don't think Vance
[55:31] is a shoe in at all.
[55:33] He's not a national figure.
[55:34] Very good chance he goes away.
[55:36] DeSantis where it's a failure to launch, you know, a crash and burn situation.
[55:40] And then it's wide open.
[55:42] And I would say that, you know, people say that I'm like a Democrat.
[55:45] Oh, like.
[55:46] wanted Kamala to win.
[55:47] And it's like, you think I don't know that Trump is better than Kamala.
[55:51] Everyone knows that.
[55:53] But I love what you said about these like knock on second order effects, because you're
[55:58] 100 percent right.
[55:59] Biden winning and like Trump getting banned from YouTube and all that, that's probably
[56:04] why Elon bought Twitter.
[56:06] Like that maybe doesn't happen in a universe where Trump won the 2020 election and all
[56:10] the other downstream effects that took place.
[56:13] Trump being president now is sweeter than it would have been from 20 to 24.
[56:17] And you could have never predicted that, like you said, that that Biden winning would
[56:21] force the pendulum to swing in the other direction.
[56:24] I think there was something true about, you know, Trump and Kamala in 24.
[56:28] If Kamala inherited the war in Gaza and the Ukraine war, would we get something insanely
[56:34] radical in 28, like a real reset?
[56:36] Maybe you can never know what I would say, though, about 28.
[56:41] And this is maybe new is like when you look at what Trump is doing, he's creating a lot
[56:47] of tension.
[56:47] Right now, the ice raids, the militarization of law enforcement, the war everywhere in
[56:55] Venezuela, Ukraine, Iran, the advance of AI and technology.
[56:59] It's like if a Democrat wins in 29, I'm moving to another country because whoever comes into
[57:06] power from the left is going to want blood because they're going to want vengeance for
[57:10] all if they regroup.
[57:11] That's sort of presumptuous.
[57:12] If they regroup and reorganize, they're going to kill us.
[57:17] Because like.
[57:18] In Chicago, I live right by where this is happening.
[57:21] They set up this detention facility.
[57:23] They're rounding people up, putting hype edits of it on Twitter.
[57:27] It's pissing liberals off.
[57:29] Liberals are going to the place protesting.
[57:32] The cops are beating the shit out of them and laughing and taunting them.
[57:35] More protesters come.
[57:37] Now they're ramming cars into ice cars.
[57:40] Cops are shooting them.
[57:42] Now they're bringing in DHS.
[57:43] It's like we've gone so far up this escalation ladder in like three months.
[57:48] And what I fear is.
[57:49] Trump is not going to finish the job.
[57:51] He's not going to salt the earth and destroy Antifa.
[57:54] So all he's doing is pissing these people off.
[57:56] And that means that the violence is going to get worse.
[57:59] They're going to organize.
[58:00] We're going to get like Mamdani for president in 28 or, you know, something along that vein.
[58:05] And that's why I think it's really important that like a Republican does win, but it just
[58:10] can't be Vance.
[58:10] So like that's kind of how I'm thinking about it, because they're they're really barking
[58:14] up the wrong tree, in my opinion.
[58:16] They're not.
[58:16] They're signing checks.
[58:17] They can't cash.
[58:18] Yeah.
[58:18] I mean, like, I wouldn't even like I wouldn't entirely close the door on Vance.
[58:22] I'm just like, he's got to show me something.
[58:24] I got to see something that makes me go like, OK, I can get on board with this, at least,
[58:29] which I just haven't seen yet.
[58:31] And I do worry about that a lot.
[58:32] I think it's like it's something that, you know, like you should pay attention if you
[58:38] think about, say, like kind of the way the culture shifted over the last few years, which
[58:41] really is hard to like overstate how crazy it is, dude.
[58:44] Like me and you talk five years ago.
[58:45] We were living in a different world when me and you talked five years ago.
[58:48] It was not that long.
[58:49] You know, and there's and you could obviously see right now, like looking at where the culture
[58:55] is, you're like, oh, the woke progressives really overplayed their hand in a lot of ways.
[58:58] Right.
[58:58] And then there's a lesson in there to be learned that like things can change very quickly.
[59:04] And I do I do worry about that.
[59:07] You know, you worry about like how far the Democrats went last time they were in power
[59:11] and what they might do again.
[59:13] It's also important to know that there were like a couple for as much as I always feel
[59:16] like the American system is pretty broken and the Constitution is.
[59:19] Pretty destroyed.
[59:20] But there still are some things.
[59:22] And we I think people don't appreciate enough the fact that the two major ones that got
[59:27] shut down.
[59:28] Number one was the OSHA tax mandate.
[59:31] There's Joe Biden had legislated that every company with 100 or more employees must fire
[59:38] anyone who doesn't get this vaccine.
[59:40] This would have been a huge event and massive control of government, you know, particularly,
[59:46] you know, OK, not explicitly targeting right wingers, but who the hell wasn't getting the
[59:49] facts, you know.
[59:50] And then the other one was the Ministry of Truth, which ended up getting shut down.
[59:55] Now, both of these ended up getting struck down.
[59:57] But, man, might we be living in a different world had they gone through.
[1:00:01] And so who knows what they would try to do again.
[1:00:03] Also, as you talked about before, which is like kind of a broader theme, is that there
[1:00:07] is this, you know, Netanyahu's snapback about controlling the media and how he was just
[1:00:13] openly bragging.
[1:00:13] I really couldn't believe he was openly bragging.
[1:00:15] I said on the show, I said, I think this video is supposed to be a secret.
[1:00:20] Recording where he's talking in Hebrew, like, is he actually just on camera saying
[1:00:24] this in English?
[1:00:25] Really?
[1:00:25] But so they're trying.
[1:00:26] But I do wonder and I wonder how you think about this, because I and this is something
[1:00:30] that concerns me particularly about you and the Groypers and more broadly, just kind of
[1:00:35] the Twitter culture or what's on social media.
[1:00:38] It does seem to me like I'm slow motion, almost like watching this movie play out where it's
[1:00:43] like it would have seemed impossible five years ago, you know, five years ago, I guess
[1:00:47] six years ago, the second time you were on the podcast.
[1:00:49] It's you had just been kicked off YouTube.
[1:00:51] It was just ramping up that like, hey, you simply can't do these things on YouTube, even
[1:00:55] like I'm going to put this up on YouTube.
[1:00:57] I guess we'll test it.
[1:00:58] We'll test where they're at now.
[1:00:59] But I just think you're doing other interviews that are up there.
[1:01:01] I figured, why not?
[1:01:02] I think it's OK.
[1:01:04] We're like, you can say things on Twitter now that you couldn't have dreamed of saying.
[1:01:08] But now that the censorship regime has been rolled back and like Nazi shit is just flooding
[1:01:14] in, it does seem to me like, oh, man, this is like setting up the pretext.
[1:01:20] It's setting up the pretext for like, hey, you guys wanted to have freedom of speech.
[1:01:25] Well, here's what it actually looks like.
[1:01:26] Now, can we all agree that this must be shut down?
[1:01:28] And like, I'm not saying I know that's going to happen, but it's a real concern of mine.
[1:01:32] And I wonder what you think about all that.
[1:01:34] I totally agree.
[1:01:35] And the first time that that kind of was clocking to me was when I think it was on Fresh and
[1:01:40] Fit.
[1:01:41] And I love Myron and I like Fresh, too.
[1:01:44] But it was on their show where I think some like ghetto black woman said, like, fuck,
[1:01:49] F the Jews.
[1:01:50] Fuck the Jews.
[1:01:50] And we love it.
[1:01:51] And and it went like super viral.
[1:01:54] And I think I saw this suspect seized up on that.
[1:01:57] And it's like and I didn't say anything to him privately, but you could see where that's
[1:02:02] going to go very in very short order where there's no shortage of stuff like that.
[1:02:07] You can find, you know, that certain people are putting out there on a daily basis.
[1:02:12] And it's not measured.
[1:02:13] It's not nuanced.
[1:02:14] There's no point.
[1:02:15] It's just vulgar.
[1:02:16] It's vulgar.
[1:02:16] It is hateful.
[1:02:17] It definitely probably crosses the line.
[1:02:20] It doesn't like serve the conversation.
[1:02:22] Like, it's one thing to say Jewish identity, blah, blah, blah.
[1:02:24] It's only say, ask these people like that's different.
[1:02:27] And I 100 percent believe there's going to be another censorship push and they're going
[1:02:34] to use shit like that to justify it.
[1:02:36] So that's why I've really tried.
[1:02:37] And I'm not the most disciplined person, but I've really been trying this year to be more
[1:02:41] restrained and measured.
[1:02:43] And that, you know, in the audience, they perceive everything as cocking.
[1:02:48] If you're not sprinting towards the most.
[1:02:50] Most vulgar, extreme fanatical, they say that you got the call, but it's so important
[1:02:55] because there is a window of opportunity here.
[1:02:57] And you and I have been around long enough to recognize that because you're right.
[1:03:01] It was a different country in 2015, completely different country.
[1:03:05] And we don't want to squander that.
[1:03:07] But then again, you wonder how much of it is even in our control.
[1:03:10] Will they do it anyway?
[1:03:11] No, I think that's right.
[1:03:12] You control what we can control.
[1:03:13] No, I think that's right.
[1:03:15] And I think that, you know, it's something for us to even, you know, always keep in mind,
[1:03:19] too, because it's hard.
[1:03:20] And when, when you start growing, I know you've, I'm sure experienced this, right.
[1:03:23] But it's like a dip, like when you, when you have a show and it's getting like 10,000 views
[1:03:28] a show, you can kind of know your audience.
[1:03:30] You're like, I know what my audience thinks when you're, when you're getting like 500,000,
[1:03:35] you know, views in a show.
[1:03:36] It's like, if 50,000 people are furious at you, you're like the whole lot, but actually,
[1:03:40] no, that's not the whole lot.
[1:03:41] There's a much bigger eyes.
[1:03:42] And like, even as you've said, as you've been trying to not moderate, isn't the word, but
[1:03:46] like, just be more careful or just be more mature, I guess, which is natural for, for
[1:03:50] all of us.
[1:03:51] I mean, I'm still a big child in a lot of ways.
[1:03:53] But you kind of realize that it's like, well, as you're doing that, actually, your audience
[1:03:56] is growing.
[1:03:57] It's not like you're losing your audience.
[1:03:58] It's not like they're, they're abandoning you.
[1:04:00] I do just think that there is, you know, like, like even what you were saying with that,
[1:04:04] it goes, the problem with, you know, who the hell cares what some ghetto black chick says
[1:04:08] on Myron show, you know, and I like Myron, I've, I've done a show before, but who cares
[1:04:12] what one of these fucking chicks says on there.
[1:04:14] But the reason to care is because that is the type of thing that will convince normal,
[1:04:20] people that Yeah, you know what, in fact, you're right, this is too fucking insane.
[1:04:24] Like, they're praising Adolf Hitler, like this is true.
[1:04:27] And so you just like, I don't know, like, in the same, like vein of the second and third
[1:04:31] order effects.
[1:04:32] It's like, I just think people that you want to try to encourage people to be smart, you're
[1:04:35] right, we can't control what our audience says.
[1:04:37] And me and you have experienced that in the last couple weeks, very, very, a very clear
[1:04:41] demonstration of that.
[1:04:43] And that's good.
[1:04:44] Our audience shouldn't just be taking our orders or anything, but we, but we should
[1:04:48] exert influence where we can and go like,
[1:04:50] Hey, think about this, just like, be smart and think about what you're setting up here.
[1:04:54] Because of course, like, there is, look, there's no question that they're thinking about plugging
[1:05:00] up this hole.
[1:05:01] Now, what, what they're going to be able to do about it, who knows, you know, it is it
[1:05:04] does feel to me, like, maybe this thing has gotten away from them.
[1:05:07] But it's not like they don't have a few tricks up their sleeves.
[1:05:09] And so we should, I mean, I think we should just think about these things and what that
[1:05:15] what the response to it might be.
[1:05:18] Because they're certainly planning, they're very aware of this, you know, that's one of
[1:05:20] the things that was interesting about Netanyahu's meeting there.
[1:05:25] So interesting that I mean, I know, you must have just been cackling laughing like I was
[1:05:29] at this.
[1:05:30] But the fact that Netanyahu had to deny that he had Charlie Kirk murdered multiple times
[1:05:35] is like, like, they're aware that things are different.
[1:05:39] It really is just so hard to imagine, maybe because I'm a little older, it's like even
[1:05:43] more hard for me to imagine because it's just like, yo, this is so I mean, this is so unthinkable,
[1:05:49] so unthinkable.
[1:05:50] And when I was 18.
[1:05:51] But younger that this would be the case today.
[1:05:53] But it is and they've got their eye on this as well.
[1:05:56] So we're like you said, we have an opportunity that feels almost like a trap.
[1:06:02] Yes.
[1:06:03] You know what I mean?
[1:06:04] Like, you know, like, it just like has that feeling like, wait a minute, this whole thing
[1:06:07] has been we're all cool now is like, wait, we all agree.
[1:06:12] It's retarded to trans kids.
[1:06:14] Everyone agrees.
[1:06:15] Okay, that's kind of interesting.
[1:06:17] But at the same time, it does feel like, okay, the second act is coming or the next act.
[1:06:21] Is coming.
[1:06:22] And I worry about what that's going to be.
[1:06:24] Yeah, I totally agree.
[1:06:25] You're waiting for the next shoe to drop, you know, because we've experienced this like
[1:06:29] suffocating political control that seems like they almost know every permutation of how
[1:06:34] things are going to end up.
[1:06:36] And now it's like, so Mark Zuckerberg decided free speech is good now.
[1:06:41] Like, I don't believe that I don't believe that there is an ulterior motive.
[1:06:45] And I think that I'm always just in favor of doing the thing that's unpredictable, because,
[1:06:51] if to the extent.
[1:06:52] That they have power, it's because they can predict what will happen next or how we'll
[1:06:56] behave.
[1:06:57] And that's why I try to just surprise people and do the thing they're not expecting me
[1:07:00] to do.
[1:07:01] Like, if they bring me back on Twitter and maybe there's an angle, it's because they're
[1:07:05] expecting me to be what they think I am, which is a troll or a hater or whatever.
[1:07:10] So maybe walk it back or be restrained or, you know, and I think that we really need
[1:07:15] to be intentional and cautious.
[1:07:17] Like after Charlie died, I called up a lot of people that I know that are like influencers.
[1:07:21] And I was like, we just really need to be careful to not step into a trap, because it seems
[1:07:28] like whenever there's a crisis and you'd never think it's going to happen, but when there's
[1:07:32] a crisis, you get kind of riled up and you act in ways that are not smart, you know,
[1:07:38] and by you, I mean, anyone does me, you, anyone, because emotions are high.
[1:07:42] Rationality goes out the window and it's easy to forget all the hard fought lessons we've
[1:07:47] learned over the years that that have produced bad results for us.
[1:07:51] So.
[1:07:52] With all the violence, chaos, the uncertainty, unprecedented nature of where we are, we just
[1:07:57] have to be extremely cautious, vigilant, intentional about what we're doing, what we're saying.
[1:08:03] It just can't be sloppy, you know, because if we're sloppy, the thing about Netanyahu
[1:08:08] and them is they are really smart and they are catching.
[1:08:13] You think they don't know?
[1:08:14] They know.
[1:08:15] Like you said, they know astutely, even to the extent that Matt Walsh says, let him kill
[1:08:20] each other.
[1:08:21] That's a brilliant innovation.
[1:08:22] They knew the pro-Israel thing was losing and you think they're just going to keep pressing
[1:08:27] that button until it doesn't work anymore.
[1:08:29] No, they switched up quick and said, we can't get him to support.
[1:08:32] We'll get him to say this line about, well, we don't want Muslims here.
[1:08:37] They reinvent all the time.
[1:08:38] So the game is not over.
[1:08:41] That's what people need to keep in mind.
[1:08:42] You run through the finish line, you run through first base, it isn't over.
[1:08:46] And I like what you said.
[1:08:47] They always have something up their sleeve.
[1:08:49] So you can't presume that we're running away with it.
[1:08:52] We get careless, sloppy, do a victory celebration.
[1:08:55] It's still in flux.
[1:08:56] Yeah.
[1:08:57] Yeah, absolutely.
[1:08:58] All right.
[1:08:59] So I wanted to ask you a little bit about this because I think this is a topic that
[1:09:02] I find very fascinating and I think you're uniquely a perfect example of this.
[1:09:09] But so 2019, you got your YouTube channel taken.
[1:09:15] And then was that around the same time you got kicked off everything else or was it like
[1:09:21] Twitter?
[1:09:22] Did you get kicked off of that?
[1:09:23] I know you ultimately got let back on, but like there was a period where you were gone.
[1:09:27] I was banned from YouTube in February 2020 and then Twitter in July 21.
[1:09:32] Okay.
[1:09:33] All right.
[1:09:34] So there's a real interesting dynamic to me and I watched this happen with people who
[1:09:38] I know, the people I'm friendly with, you know, like I knew like Gavin McGinnis, a good
[1:09:44] example of somebody who got canceled off everything and really hurt him, really sidelined him.
[1:09:48] Stefan Molyneux kicked off everything, really sidelined him.
[1:09:51] Like it's almost like they're not.
[1:09:52] Yeah.
[1:09:52] In the conversation anymore, at least the way that they were Milo, a great example of
[1:09:59] that where he was really seemed like he was about to break through to mainstream success
[1:10:03] and they, they squashed that and somewhere along the years, it seemed like that started
[1:10:10] backfiring.
[1:10:11] Uh, I thought Andrew Tate, I thought was an interesting thing that I had never heard of
[1:10:15] Andrew Tate until he got canceled from everything.
[1:10:17] And then that, and then all of a sudden it was just like dominating the algorithm and
[1:10:20] he was everywhere.
[1:10:21] And I think you were one of those guys too.
[1:10:23] So like even like you got back on Twitter and I'm sure that helped, but you were already
[1:10:28] kind of surging before, I think if I've got that correct as it was like, was there a period
[1:10:33] that you're out there in the, in the, you know, unpersoned world and was there a time
[1:10:38] where you were like, oh, this is actually working here in this world.
[1:10:41] And like, what were you, uh, what were you streaming on?
[1:10:45] I was on cozy TV, which is my own site.
[1:10:47] Oh, you just made your own thing.
[1:10:49] Okay, cool.
[1:10:50] Yeah.
[1:10:51] So I just like, I haven't heard of that.
[1:10:52] Um, but so that was.
[1:10:53] And what did you, did you start getting numbers there?
[1:10:55] No, no, I was languishing.
[1:10:57] It was tough.
[1:10:58] I mean, the thing about de-platforming is it works.
[1:11:01] When I got banned from everything, I was not getting great numbers.
[1:11:04] It was when I got back on rumble that I really, that I got on rumbled in the first place.
[1:11:09] Rumble seems like it was a big deal in the, in the, cause they, they were the first one
[1:11:13] who really started doing numbers.
[1:11:14] Yes.
[1:11:16] Yeah.
[1:11:17] And you know, it was a live streaming platform.
[1:11:18] I, for a period I was banned from all live streaming platforms from roughly 21 until rumble.
[1:11:23] I think opened up live streaming to everybody, which maybe it was like 2023 right around
[1:11:29] there.
[1:11:30] Um, that, that was the wilderness.
[1:11:32] I, I literally could not stream my show unless I made a website, which is very costly and
[1:11:37] time consuming.
[1:11:38] And, um, you know, what helped was being prolific and having like a core of supporters.
[1:11:45] I do a show every day.
[1:11:46] There's a pair of social relationship.
[1:11:48] They are, it's a cult like following, but a lot of these guys, they either stop making
[1:11:52] content.
[1:11:53] They thought it was all new.
[1:11:54] They uploaded to a platform.
[1:11:55] That doesn't work.
[1:11:56] Like bit shoot was pretty rough in the early days.
[1:11:59] And Gavin put all the stuff behind a paywall.
[1:12:01] And that's just, in my opinion, a bad business model.
[1:12:03] Cause it's like, you gotta give out the free samples to get people to walk through the
[1:12:07] door and when it's a pay to get in, you just, you don't.
[1:12:12] The conversion, you don't get new listeners.
[1:12:14] Yeah, exactly.
[1:12:15] So I had a strategy where I said, I'm going to take a financial hit.
[1:12:18] Like I made no money for two years, but I knew it's like, if I keep people coming through,
[1:12:23] eventually things will change i could still make a little money um if it's free and if it's good
[1:12:28] and uh and that's how i was able to just kind of like survive but i'm still dependent on platform
[1:12:33] access yeah but it does okay fair enough but it does just seem like you know like whatever if the
[1:12:38] goal was to shut you up well that certainly didn't work out very well for them and it does seem uh
[1:12:44] i think there's just something interesting about the fact that it seems at least like we were just
[1:12:49] saying we're waiting for the other shoe to drop but it seems at least for the time being that the
[1:12:53] cancel thing just stopped working and actually started like kind of injecting more life into the
[1:12:59] people who were getting canceled like i i thought like obviously you're saying these years were
[1:13:03] rough but on net i think you may have benefited from that and maybe i'm wrong because maybe if
[1:13:07] you were just on youtube and twitter this whole time you lost out on a lot oh yeah so like maybe
[1:13:11] i'm wrong about that but at the very least it seems to have not worked or something like that
[1:13:16] and i thought andrew tate and alex jones too were like kind of examples of that where it was just
[1:13:20] like ah that's not you didn't remove them from the
[1:13:23] conversation
[1:13:23] they're more like all three of you guys are more present than ever whereas some of those other guys
[1:13:29] just like never kind of got back to where they were i guess gavin is back on twitter now i think
[1:13:35] i think yeah just last week yeah yeah to me it's more in my opinion a function of your strategy and
[1:13:42] just kind of it seems that the people that have survived the longest are the people with a show
[1:13:46] only because if you have a show people know when to tune in it is every day you know like alex jones
[1:13:53] does three hours every day and he's on radio which really helps yeah i don't think he ever
[1:13:56] got censored from there but i was never a believer in this dry sand effect thing because it's like i
[1:14:03] can't process credit cards for my business there's like you know you can't make money you
[1:14:08] can't have a bank account you know and all that stuff so it really in my opinion was trump got
[1:14:15] banned from everything and i think venture capital and private equity they do what they do best and
[1:14:21] looked at him like an undervalued asset and they
[1:14:24] came in and said, hmm, this guy's banned from everything.
[1:14:27] We can actually upset Silicon Valley and the market there if we make censorship-proof Rumble.
[1:14:33] It's like if I'm banned on Twitter, no one's going to build a new Twitter around me.
[1:14:37] But if Trump is banned on Twitter, you actually can build a Rumble, a true social around him.
[1:14:43] And in a way, that explains to me 2024, because that is who came in.
[1:14:48] Little tech, you know, it's Andreessen Horowitz, it's the Teal Club, it's Elon Musk.
[1:14:53] He was kind of like their guy, commercially and politically.
[1:14:58] And then I think that the rising tide lifted all the boats.
[1:15:00] That's kind of how I interpret it, because we were headed towards like total annihilation of free speech.
[1:15:05] Like my listener base shrunk dramatically when I was in the wilderness.
[1:15:10] Yeah, wasn't it wild seeing like everybody flip out about the FCC chairman threatening Jimmy Kimmel?
[1:15:18] Free speech is finally at risk in America after like the last five years.
[1:15:23] You're like, really?
[1:15:24] Oh, really?
[1:15:25] Was this the one?
[1:15:26] Which, by the way, was a stupid thing for the FCC chair to say that.
[1:15:30] Totally.
[1:15:31] Like talk about seizing defeat from the jaws of victory.
[1:15:35] Like, oh, okay, now you handed them a talking point.
[1:15:38] This guy is dying in the wilderness, you know.
[1:15:42] This is a couple other things I want to talk about.
[1:15:44] I want to talk about censorship, and then I want to hit like Tucker Candace and some of that stuff.
[1:15:53] But so there...
[1:15:55] You know, there's just been a lot of questions that are raised over the censorship stuff.
[1:16:00] And like I said, there's some areas that I struggle with myself, like how exactly...
[1:16:03] I think I kind of landed about where you were on the Charlie Kirk thing.
[1:16:06] Like, look, like the government shouldn't be involved.
[1:16:08] They're not technically inciting violence, but like there really should be consequences for this.
[1:16:13] There should be some type of social consequences.
[1:16:15] And in fact, I'm a big believer in social consequences.
[1:16:19] But what do you think, like, in terms of, you know, I think I heard you say something like,
[1:16:24] look, the right's in power now.
[1:16:25] When the left gets back in power, they're going to be.
[1:16:27] So maybe we should be doing things like that now.
[1:16:30] But like, what do you mean by that?
[1:16:33] Or what, like, do you think the FCC chair...
[1:16:34] I mean, you seem to agree with me when I said that.
[1:16:36] But like, should the FCC chairman be threatening Jimmy Kimmel and people like that?
[1:16:39] No, I think that was just tactically dumb.
[1:16:42] Yeah, I agree.
[1:16:42] But I do believe that we are in like a war, basically.
[1:16:48] We are in a race.
[1:16:49] And we know that because, like you said, under Biden, like they were engaging in censorship.
[1:16:53] It was coming from the press office.
[1:16:55] It was coming from...
[1:16:56] I don't know how many departments and agencies.
[1:16:58] But it was quite a few of them that they were giving orders.
[1:17:00] Take this account.
[1:17:01] Yep.
[1:17:01] That post.
[1:17:02] Take that down.
[1:17:03] The OSHA stuff.
[1:17:04] And they wasted no time in doing that.
[1:17:06] Like, Biden got in and it was just a whirlwind of J6, censorship, everything you can think of,
[1:17:12] a naked power grab.
[1:17:14] And I do believe that if Trump leaves office and a Democrat comes in, they're going to do it again.
[1:17:20] And so I'm a big believer that the right wing needs to really disempower the left institutionally.
[1:17:27] Like, if they weren't...
[1:17:28] If they were doing it under a different pretense, I would like what they're doing at Harvard and Columbia.
[1:17:32] The problem is they're doing it...
[1:17:33] It's not on behalf of America.
[1:17:36] Right.
[1:17:36] For some other reason.
[1:17:38] But it's like, yeah, like, we should work to disorganize the left.
[1:17:42] We should work to go after their radicals.
[1:17:45] Like Antifa, we should put the pressure on them hard.
[1:17:48] We should put the pressure on the far left.
[1:17:50] We should put the pressure on their funding mechanisms, their stuff.
[1:17:53] Because if we lose, they will do it to us indiscriminately.
[1:17:58] They have no qualms about it.
[1:18:00] And they'll be more competent about it.
[1:18:02] And, like, then they'll make the country the way they want it to be.
[1:18:05] So, yeah, I'm a big believer in, like, we should use the levers of power.
[1:18:09] I don't know about, like, censoring them on Twitter, let's say.
[1:18:13] But institutionally, yeah, we should be playing to win.
[1:18:16] Yeah, you know, I said on my show, and this is, you know, from my particular strain of libertarianism or whatever.
[1:18:22] But I was like, I basically said the same thing as you.
[1:18:24] I was like, look, I don't find, I don't view it as a free speech violation.
[1:18:27] Because, like, Jimmy,
[1:18:28] Jimmy Kimmel isn't a person anymore.
[1:18:30] Like, you're part of the regime.
[1:18:32] Like, once you, there is, and I know it's a little bit of a gray area of where you draw the line when someone,
[1:18:36] I'm not going to say, hey, you pay your taxes, therefore you're part of the regime.
[1:18:39] But, like, no, when you just become what Jimmy Kimmel is, you're no longer a citizen expressing their views.
[1:18:45] It's just tactically, it was such a blunder.
[1:18:47] The guys already died.
[1:18:48] We're killing them already.
[1:18:49] So, like, what do we even, me and you get better numbers than these guys get.
[1:18:52] So, like, what do we, why do we need to make them a free speech martyr?
[1:18:56] Like, it was just like, shit.
[1:18:57] But I do think that.
[1:18:58] And it's one of the great disappointments of the Trump administration is that, you know,
[1:19:03] for all that talk about, like, Project 2025 and how he's going to be, like, permanently,
[1:19:08] he's going to overthrow democracy and all of this.
[1:19:10] It's like, okay, well, that was never.
[1:19:11] But there should have been, like, this time, this time, like, conservative and right-wing America should have been like,
[1:19:18] hey, we have to do something that, like, dismantles their mechanism.
[1:19:22] And I do think, like, you know, look, again, all of government's, all of college is a government
[1:19:28] project.
[1:19:28] The whole thing's a government program.
[1:19:30] All of that.
[1:19:30] It's like, yeah, we should be shutting down as much of this stuff as we can.
[1:19:34] I'm just destroying it.
[1:19:35] So, I don't really think, and maybe this is where me and you disagree, but I never believe
[1:19:39] that right-wingers are going to be able to capture and use these institutions.
[1:19:42] I think bureaucratic institutions are progressive by their very nature.
[1:19:45] They're egalitarian by their very nature.
[1:19:47] It's like, but you can smash a lot of it, you know, or at least attempt to, some attempt.
[1:19:52] I mean, maybe you get struck down by the courts, but, like, at least try.
[1:19:55] There seems to be no attempt to even be, like, how do we make this happen?
[1:19:58] How do we make sure this doesn't happen to our guys next time?
[1:20:01] And, in fact, I think part of that's because Trump doesn't really even view them as his
[1:20:04] guys.
[1:20:04] Like, you know, Donald Trump, I thought, one of them, and you were there on January 6th,
[1:20:11] so I'm curious to ask you a little bit about that, but I thought one of the most disgusting
[1:20:16] things I ever saw Donald Trump do was when he threw the January 6th guys under the bus.
[1:20:19] Yes.
[1:20:20] Like, days after it, or maybe the day after it, even.
[1:20:23] And, okay, ultimately he pardoned them after letting them languish in prison.
[1:20:28] For years, okay?
[1:20:30] So you don't get, like, that much credit from me for that.
[1:20:32] But, like, look, man, I never bought any of the, all the leftist claims about January
[1:20:37] 6th were always, like, hyperbolic insanity, you know?
[1:20:40] Like, it wasn't an insurrection, and Donald Trump didn't incite violence.
[1:20:44] But, at the same time, if you're a leader, and you told everybody that they just stole
[1:20:50] this election from me, like, and then you said you're going to go there, and then your
[1:20:55] people did, what would be reasonable to do if the election was stolen from them, right?
[1:20:58] Right.
[1:20:59] Right.
[1:20:59] Right.
[1:20:59] Like, it is not, the claim, just like the Democrats were making the claim with Russia,
[1:21:02] it's like, well, then we should be nuking Moscow.
[1:21:04] Like, according to what you're saying, we should be at war with them now.
[1:21:07] Well, according to what you're saying, Donald Trump, you should storm the Capitol if that's
[1:21:10] the case.
[1:21:11] If that's the case.
[1:21:12] And so he kind of led his people into this.
[1:21:14] And then, literally, because, at the end of the day, it does seem that really what motivates
[1:21:18] Donald Trump is his own ego, his own greatness.
[1:21:20] And if it was, they were like, oh, you're going to get impeached or removed, or you're
[1:21:24] going to get this if you don't go to, so, okay, fine.
[1:21:26] And then threw his own people under the bus.
[1:21:28] I thought it was, like, fine.
[1:21:29] That's disgusting.
[1:21:30] Yeah.
[1:21:30] And he had the full power to pardon them in the first place.
[1:21:33] Right there.
[1:21:33] Right there.
[1:21:34] Could have done it.
[1:21:34] He had three weeks to do it, or two weeks, I guess, is what it was.
[1:21:39] And, yeah, at least for me, I was almost charged with conspiracy.
[1:21:43] They were considering charges against me.
[1:21:45] That was in the New York Times.
[1:21:47] And, you know, and other people, obviously, did go to jail.
[1:21:51] And I was there because Trump told me to be.
[1:21:54] You know, like, Trump, and by that, I mean, I was going to be at the speech.
[1:21:58] I was not going to be at the Capitol.
[1:22:00] I was going to be at the Capitol building.
[1:22:00] The speech was at the Ellipse.
[1:22:01] The Capitol was miles away.
[1:22:03] And Trump said, we are going to the Capitol to make our voices heard.
[1:22:07] I said, oh, well, Trump's going to be there.
[1:22:08] I guess it's cool.
[1:22:09] So I went there.
[1:22:10] And if I had been in jail, and other people were, is that not his fault?
[1:22:15] He saw no responsibility.
[1:22:17] And that is kind of his M.O.
[1:22:19] I mean, he throws a lot of people under the bus.
[1:22:21] He is, I think, motivated by vanity.
[1:22:23] And here's the problem with that.
[1:22:26] If he's not in it to win it, then he is creating.
[1:22:29] He's activating the enemy with no intention of following through.
[1:22:33] That's right.
[1:22:33] He got an office.
[1:22:35] He's like, oh, I won.
[1:22:36] So it's not that serious for him.
[1:22:38] And he can pardon himself when this is all over.
[1:22:40] And he's rich.
[1:22:41] So he can go.
[1:22:42] But if the country turns upside down, we're all going to be paying the price.
[1:22:45] And so that was my big beef with him, among others, in 24, is like, look, you guys don't understand.
[1:22:51] He did not learn his lesson.
[1:22:52] He never does.
[1:22:53] He hasn't changed at all.
[1:22:54] If anything, he's just more tired and cares less.
[1:22:58] And as a consequence, it's going to be just as inefficient as the first term, in which case we shouldn't even bother, in which case we're better off not poking the bear.
[1:23:07] Let's just let Kamala catch the hot potato and forget about it because he's going to start something he can't finish.
[1:23:12] That was kind of my problem.
[1:23:14] And in a weird way, it's kind of true about the people who stormed the Capitol building, too.
[1:23:19] Like, you're like, you know, I don't think you realize what you're doing.
[1:23:21] I know you think this is funny.
[1:23:22] Like, I know you think it's funny.
[1:23:23] Oh, you fart on Nancy Pelosi.
[1:23:25] That's really funny.
[1:23:26] Hey, you know what government is?
[1:23:28] It's not your friend.
[1:23:29] You know what I mean?
[1:23:29] Like, these are the biggest, most powerful gangsters in all of the land.
[1:23:32] And, like, they are going to crush you and lose no sleep over it.
[1:23:36] And, you know, I was, like I said before, like, I voted for Trump in 24.
[1:23:40] I didn't vote for him in 2016, but I was rooting for him.
[1:23:44] Like, it couldn't help.
[1:23:45] But, I mean, like, the 2016 Election Day coverage will forever go down.
[1:23:48] It's just, like, the greatest thing ever.
[1:23:50] The montages of MSNBC and the Young Turks and all this stuff was like, which, but I guess I'm friends with the Young Turks now because we're all against the genocide or whatever.
[1:23:58] But, like, at the time, it was just, like, so amazing.
[1:24:00] 2020, I wasn't even rooting for him because I really did feel exactly that, especially I was just so furious at him for the year that was 2020.
[1:24:08] I mean, like, talk about just, like, my God, what a failure.
[1:24:11] Like, in the moment of your life, you were in the seat of power and failed so hard and just, you know, instituted totalitarianism in the United States of America.
[1:24:21] It's, like, the craziest shit ever.
[1:24:23] And I did feel exactly like you felt, which if people could remember back, I mean, 2020 was such crazy.
[1:24:28] It was such a terrible year with the mass riots in the streets and the censorship and the lockdowns and all of this.
[1:24:33] And I was just kind of like, what do we get for this?
[1:24:35] Right.
[1:24:36] Like, we're, yeah, it's okay.
[1:24:37] Like, we're, like, we're kicking a hornet's nest and without a plan associated with it.
[1:24:43] Like, for top marginal tax cuts or something like that?
[1:24:46] Like, what is the, and it just seems like, which you get from Dick Cheney anyway, you know, like, so it did just feel like that.
[1:24:52] And I think that's a really wise observation that, like, you never want to, you know, like, it's the same.
[1:24:58] It's the same way I feel about January 6th.
[1:25:00] Like, what are you doing?
[1:25:01] Are you overthrowing the U.S. government right now?
[1:25:03] Because if you are, you better fucking be prepared to do that, you know?
[1:25:07] Like, it is not wise to do that.
[1:25:08] Oh, you're just doing it with no strategy.
[1:25:10] Oh, we'll just take selfies inside.
[1:25:12] Like, okay.
[1:25:12] All right.
[1:25:13] I don't think you guys actually realize what you're dealing with.
[1:25:16] And I think particularly in the United States of America, where we have this kind of, you know, we're a very, very wealthy country.
[1:25:25] And we have an enormous powerful government, the most powerful government in the history of the world.
[1:25:29] Right.
[1:25:30] But generally speaking, like, if you don't cross them, they're fairly polite to you.
[1:25:36] You know what I mean?
[1:25:36] Like, they're not like, it's like, hey, you get your taxes.
[1:25:38] Like, listen, we're taking half your money.
[1:25:40] You have that in on time to us.
[1:25:41] But as long as you do that within reason, you know, you can kind of, and people get very comfortable and kind of, like, are a bit removed from what the real nature of government is.
[1:25:50] And you don't understand that it's like, look, man, like, John Brennan might seem fine when he's on TV.
[1:25:56] But you cross that motherfucker and he will kill you.
[1:25:59] And not lose.
[1:26:00] There's a wink of sleep over it.
[1:26:01] Like, these are people who will launch wars on false pretenses.
[1:26:04] These are people who will back both sides of a war and just let the killing happen, you know.
[1:26:09] And, man, you really want to be careful about crossing them.
[1:26:14] Okay.
[1:26:15] So the January 6th stuff is where these accusations of you being a Fed have come from, which, you know, full transparency here.
[1:26:25] I do not believe that you're a Fed.
[1:26:27] I don't fucking know.
[1:26:28] Who the hell knows?
[1:26:28] Everybody, you're a Fed.
[1:26:29] Everyone's a Fed.
[1:26:30] I don't know.
[1:26:30] Who's a Fed and who's not a Fed?
[1:26:32] But I know that this was something that, you know, Tucker had said.
[1:26:37] And I think you were very upset by this, and understandably so.
[1:26:40] I think that that's – it's a particular type of accusation that is – it's a very frustrating one, I think, in a way.
[1:26:49] Because it's kind of like, oh, you're just – everything you said is undermined now, right?
[1:26:52] Like, I don't have to deal with anything.
[1:26:54] And I think that, you know – anyway, I understand why that upset you a lot.
[1:27:00] But I think from what I've heard.
[1:27:01] I think a lot of this comes from the January 6th stuff and the accusations that you were encouraging people to go into the Capitol.
[1:27:08] So what's the deal with all that?
[1:27:10] Well, it even goes back to something else, which is the Joe Kent story, which I brought up before.
[1:27:15] Because, you know, I was at January 6th.
[1:27:18] And at January 6th, I got up there and I gave a speech.
[1:27:22] And in the speech – I gave speeches at all these events, by the way.
[1:27:25] I went to the Atlanta State Capitol, Harrisburg, Phoenix, Lansing.
[1:27:32] And even D.C.
[1:27:33] And I gave speeches at all the – at Governor's Mansion, State Capitals, and D.C. before.
[1:27:38] And J6, you know, we thought it was going to be the speech on the Ellipse.
[1:27:41] And then we were going to maybe do something at the actual Capitol building, although I wasn't going to be there.
[1:27:47] But there were plans for there to be stages there.
[1:27:50] And, you know, so like I said, I went to the speech.
[1:27:53] Trump said, go to the thing.
[1:27:54] We went to the thing.
[1:27:56] And somebody said, you've got to give a speech.
[1:27:58] So I said, okay, find me a megaphone.
[1:28:00] I get a megaphone.
[1:28:01] I jump up on a thing.
[1:28:02] And we're like 500 feet from the Capitol.
[1:28:05] We're not even near the building.
[1:28:07] We're like on the street next to the lawn.
[1:28:10] And in the speech, I said, we're taking the Capitol back.
[1:28:13] Keep moving.
[1:28:14] Take down the barriers.
[1:28:16] And then we left.
[1:28:17] You know, we didn't go in.
[1:28:18] I wasn't even close to the building.
[1:28:20] And this video had been out there for a long time.
[1:28:23] And people knew I was there and didn't get charged.
[1:28:25] I got my money frozen, although I wasn't public about that.
[1:28:29] I got on the no-fly list.
[1:28:30] I went public with that, went public with the money later.
[1:28:32] There was never an accusation until like about a year later.
[1:28:37] And then people started to create this story that, you know, that I was leading people in and I didn't get charged.
[1:28:45] Now, where it started with Tucker is with Joe Kent.
[1:28:49] Because now, like two years later, I make potentially Joe Kent lose the election.
[1:28:54] And Joe Kent was a close friend of Tucker's.
[1:28:58] Joe Kent is in the CIA.
[1:29:00] And that is how we attacked him.
[1:29:02] We attacked him on that basis.
[1:29:03] And, of course, it was in self-defense.
[1:29:05] He said that he disavowed me, condemns all my views, we're keeping you out.
[1:29:09] And I looked at him as very threatening because, like we talked about before, he's kind of boxing me out intentionally.
[1:29:15] So we made him lose.
[1:29:17] And it was a couple of months after this, this is where I first got the inkling of it, Michelle Malkin, who's a good friend of mine.
[1:29:24] Yeah, I know Michelle.
[1:29:25] I've had her on the show before.
[1:29:26] She's great.
[1:29:27] She's amazing.
[1:29:28] And she's married to a Jewish guy, so you can't remat it her.
[1:29:32] Look at that.
[1:29:33] Good woman.
[1:29:34] And he's great, too, actually.
[1:29:36] He's pretty based himself.
[1:29:37] So she communicates to me through a mutual friend that she gets this really weird call from Tucker.
[1:29:44] She says that Tucker never calls her.
[1:29:46] Sometimes she texts him and he'll give her a thumbs up, but they don't really talk.
[1:29:50] She says, but he calls her out of the blue asking about me and asking about Kanye.
[1:29:56] Did Nick make Kanye go crazy?
[1:29:59] Did Nick try to take Trump out at the Kanye dinner?
[1:30:02] I don't think anyone can hold you responsible for that.
[1:30:04] Yeah, he can blame me for a lot.
[1:30:06] This one rests squarely on the shoulders of Pete Davidson.
[1:30:09] We all know that.
[1:30:11] We all know that.
[1:30:12] Get your family stolen by Pete Davidson.
[1:30:13] You're going to lash out at the world.
[1:30:14] You're going to get radicalized.
[1:30:16] So he's calling her asking about all this stuff and about Jay Sixth, and she said it was very strange.
[1:30:23] It felt like he was reading from a script.
[1:30:25] He was asking these questions, and she's told me to be on alert.
[1:30:29] Then I get a call from Anya Parampal, the wife of Max Blumenthal at Grey Zone.
[1:30:34] They're doing a piece.
[1:30:35] She's doing a piece about me, and she asked me about the Capitol, and I tell her the story.
[1:30:38] I said I was 500 feet away.
[1:30:41] I testified.
[1:30:42] I got subpoenaed by Congress.
[1:30:43] I said I testified under oath.
[1:30:45] I did not talk to law enforcement.
[1:30:49] She publishes this three-part hit piece about me saying that I'm basically what Tucker said, that I'm here to make America first look bad, that I'm a fed, that I made Joe Kent lose.
[1:31:00] The only reason I made Joe Kent lose is because I'm a fed trying to whatever.
[1:31:05] And so I do a big stream reviewing the hit piece and debunking basically the whole thing.
[1:31:11] Then I get a call from Bryson Gray, the MAGA rapper.
[1:31:15] Now, he's a Christian rapper.
[1:31:16] He's working for a company called Influenceable, which they pay influencers to push social media campaigns.
[1:31:23] He goes, my wife just got a new campaign from Influenceable.
[1:31:27] They're paying people money to post the link to this article with the hashtag FedFuentes.
[1:31:33] And there's like a whole spreadsheet or a whole like.
[1:31:36] Read out.
[1:31:37] It said the campaign is FedFuentes.
[1:31:40] Post the link to this article and say these things and you get paid.
[1:31:45] And someone posted it.
[1:31:47] This like state representative in New York.
[1:31:49] I forget his name a long time ago, but he was the only one who had posted it.
[1:31:53] I put them on blast.
[1:31:55] Influenceable calls me up.
[1:31:57] Please stop talking about us.
[1:31:59] We will take it down.
[1:32:01] We promise.
[1:32:01] Everyone's trying to broker this big truce.
[1:32:04] That's because I was pro Tucker.
[1:32:05] I was a big fan.
[1:32:07] Up until that point.
[1:32:08] And I said, huh?
[1:32:10] So clearly, because him and Blumenthal are tight.
[1:32:13] He was fishing because he knew Michelle for this story.
[1:32:17] Blumenthal's wife wrote it.
[1:32:19] And that was like a coordinated hit shop in retaliation for their buddy, Joe Kent, who lost.
[1:32:25] And anyway, so that's kind of where the rivalry started.
[1:32:28] And by the way, I know for a fact that at a recent dinner, Tucker, even before he talked shit about me in July.
[1:32:36] He was pushing that.
[1:32:38] He was pushing that he was pushing that he was going to write the script to anyone who would listen to other East celebrities, to students saying, Yeah, Nick is this good kid.
[1:32:47] He's trans and he's a fed and he's here to make us look bad.
[1:32:50] So this was in private and he was kind of suggesting that on a show.
[1:32:55] And then he explicitly said it this summer.
[1:32:57] Well, I guess he implied it with me because I heard people on Twitter saying that it was, you know, like which I think I think I don't remember exactly the details of it.
[1:33:08] But I think you had said something that pissed me off.
[1:33:08] Whatever.
[1:33:08] of the bridge but i think it says they pissed me off and so i just didn't respond to it and just
[1:33:11] like the way people were coming at me was like a little disrespectful so i was like fuck you i
[1:33:15] don't have to answer this but he did he said when i was on the show something like we were talking
[1:33:19] about ray epps and then he was like there's someone else who was on camera and says um and
[1:33:24] he kind of put the words in my mouth he went as i'm sure you know yeah i did not honestly i did
[1:33:28] not even pick up on that until like people were showing me the clip of it and i certainly never
[1:33:32] thought he was talking about you and he never said anything to me about that um but then of
[1:33:37] course right i did see with candace where he did explicitly say it and i think um you know i guess
[1:33:42] i i think i i guess maybe the thing about it is that it does seem just on the surface of it and
[1:33:48] i'm not accusing you of being a fed at all like i don't think you're a fed but i guess just on the
[1:33:55] surface of if there's a video of you advocating people go into the capital and the way they were
[1:34:00] they were just getting everybody and it does seem like although you're obviously a lot bigger now
[1:34:05] than you were then you still would have been a pretty nice scalp to be on the show
[1:34:08] their mantle you know what i mean like it would just be like oh wouldn't they go at you for that
[1:34:11] and try to find some charge or something like that but is it the case that there's just nothing to
[1:34:16] charge you with or what was yeah there was nothing to charge me with i mean they looked at charging
[1:34:20] me but i didn't trespass i wasn't violent and wouldn't that be inciting yeah but there my lawyer
[1:34:28] told me i'm protected by the first amendment yeah for that because it wasn't like the language was
[1:34:33] such that it wouldn't be and also no one else got charged with incitement the charges were
[1:34:38] conspiracy like all things that didn't apply to me right okay all right fair enough you know i think
[1:34:43] maybe you know it's like um and i think maybe this is partially why you get that rap um which i think
[1:34:50] is unfair it's unfair to call people feds you know unless you really have fucking detailed like
[1:34:55] i have the evidence that i'm willing to show it it's just like it's an unfair accusation
[1:34:59] i think like you know when ray epps uh well by the way do you think he was a fed
[1:35:04] i don't know to be honest i'm skeptical but it's possible yeah
[1:35:08] i lean toward thinking he was just the way the democrats were defending him seemed so bizarre to
[1:35:13] me um and uh but anyway so like there's that famous video i'm sure you've seen everyone's seen
[1:35:18] where ray epps is in the crowd and he starts saying we're going to storm the capital and
[1:35:22] everyone immediately around him starts screaming fed now in that moment they have no way of knowing
[1:35:26] that he's a fed but it's just like dude that's what feds do that's what feds do they come in
[1:35:31] here and do this and i think the reason why you might get some of that is because in the same
[1:35:39] feeling of like when people are opposing israel and opposing the warfare state and then someone
[1:35:43] else goes over it was like no and we got to attach that to nazi shit or something like that not that
[1:35:48] you literally say that i'm using these terms loosely but like there's a feeling of almost
[1:35:51] like that like just like with ray epps going hey come on man that's what they're trying to cast us
[1:35:56] as not as this and i think the other thing and i want to preface this because i really do i am not
[1:36:02] look i'm 15 years your senior and i do the same shit too so i'm not like like you know i had um
[1:36:10] one uh with dave rubin recently where dave rubin was just talking shit about me on some shit like
[1:36:17] it was i don't know why my name came up some some someone asked him a question and as and mentioned
[1:36:22] me and then he goes i think dave smith's a moron who doesn't know what he's talking about and blah
[1:36:26] blah blah and so i just publicly challenged him to a debate now truth be told i don't really want
[1:36:30] to debate dave rubin who the fuck wants it like what is this yeah but it's just like i don't know
[1:36:35] we're in this game and like what do you do when someone who has millions of followers is saying
[1:36:40] i don't know what i'm talking about you're weaponizing your audience against me and i only
[1:36:44] have one tool in my toolkit which is i'll debate you i can't fist fight you you know like so it's
[1:36:49] like okay so let's have a debate and we'll see who's a fucking moron and now i weaponize the
[1:36:54] audience back against you and they all and he accepted but then refused ever you know he's
[1:36:58] like a bunch of people have reached out patrick but david tried to set it up charlie kirk actually
[1:37:01] tried to set it up that was it was supposed charlie kirk wanted me to come debate and i said
[1:37:05] how about dave rubin because i know he lives in florida and it was right when we were talking
[1:37:10] but so like i get like if someone attacks you you you feel the need to attack them back it's kind
[1:37:16] of the game we're in i do think though when you're you know it it leads easy to the perception when
[1:37:23] you're kind of attacking me attacking tucker attacking candace you go well what purpose are
[1:37:28] you really serving here you know what i'm saying and it's like it seems like any voice that's
[1:37:33] critical of israel you know what i'm saying like you're going after and then it does make people
[1:37:38] say like do you get the point i'm making it was like okay so what number of people are you going to
[1:37:41] attack and then number one you're saying we got to attach all this toxic baggage to our opposition
[1:37:45] of israel and then number two anytime there's a critic of israel who's resonating it seems like
[1:37:50] you're trying to take him down a peg did you get what i'm saying i do and and from the outside
[1:37:54] looking in i get it but i would say that with tucker it started before all that it started
[1:37:59] before he was ever criticizing israel this was in 2023 at the beginning of 2023 uh before october
[1:38:06] 7th and you know tucker never said anything negative about israel up to that point with
[1:38:11] one thing he did about the adl and you know same thing with candace i mean i supported candace
[1:38:18] like i supported tucker to the hilt i had an account called standus owens i stand candace
[1:38:24] owens and we were like gassing her up during the whole thing and all i ever said about candace is
[1:38:30] that it felt like she was kind of blowing smoke up my ass about why she wouldn't do the show with me
[1:38:35] and i didn't like that you know after she gets all this clout she's clouded up she then starts
[1:38:40] saying it's the frankists it's the frankists it's the frankists it's the frankists it's the frankists
[1:38:42] it's the frankists and i said yeah that's not true like that's nonsense and uh and even even
[1:38:48] this year she invites me on her show and uh and i asked her i said well is it going to be a hit
[1:38:54] piece she goes no i don't set anybody up i get all dressed up i fly down there looking to you
[1:38:59] know she extended the olive branch i accept and she's motherfucking me about drama from a year
[1:39:04] ago about you about are you racist are you anti-semitic why aren't you married all this
[1:39:09] kind of stuff it wasn't a friendly interview i don't even think it was cordial i think it was
[1:39:13] basically uh it was an attempted hit job and um you know so like with you i mean look we have
[1:39:20] disagreements and here we are talking about him and i think i said during my show like i i like
[1:39:26] you and i respect you but i also speak freely and if i disagree i say something and you know
[1:39:31] these other people got to recognize like tucker and candace they're more powerful than me
[1:39:36] they have institutional backing tucker is from fox candace is from daily wire they never got
[1:39:42] censored from anything
[1:39:43] me i never had any i they tried to throttle me in the crib by they i mean conservatives
[1:39:48] from the time i was 18 and i've been banned for most things for five years so it just to me it's
[1:39:54] like a little unfair it it's like when ben shapiro quote tweeted me with a thousand followers for
[1:39:59] yeah that's something else i mean i mean tucker and candace getting together and saying oh this
[1:40:05] guy's like a fad it's like yeah well you guys have millions and millions of followers that
[1:40:11] you accumulated serving the system that i was like i don't know what to do with you
[1:40:14] tucker and candace is getting killed by for five years so that's why i feel like i have
[1:40:17] a special license to attack because it's punching up but you know i don't know what to make
[1:40:22] of tucker and candace i i would say if i was being charitable that there's immense distrust
[1:40:28] on both sides yeah and for obvious reasons because i'm an unknown quantity on the outside
[1:40:34] who you know they probably don't watch everything they don't know what's happening down here
[1:40:39] and on the other side they are exiting the institutions so from someone on the outside
[1:40:43] it's like.
[1:40:44] are you cia where are your loyalties what do you really believe are you concealing what
[1:40:49] you really believe in to what extent and so you know i i guess when i gave tucker a black
[1:40:55] eye so to speak uh and kind of retaliated very strongly maybe at the minimum it made
[1:41:01] him just kind of respect what i represent but i'm open to all possibilities making up
[1:41:05] with either of well that's good i think it's good to be open to that you know i remember
[1:41:09] like um that and i don't know that this is true right like i don't know if david duke
[1:41:14] is a fat.
[1:41:15] i've met david duke i don't know him but i remember um he used in two thousand eight
[1:41:19] and two thousand twelve he came out and endorsed ron paul for president and then this was of
[1:41:23] course used against ron paul and i remember just feel like i remember going oh you're
[1:41:27] a fucking fed because like if you're not a fed then fucking don't endorse ron paul like
[1:41:32] what are you doing do you hate him like this with you this would only make sense like if
[1:41:36] you and so i i think there's just something and i'm not i'm saying like from the perspective
[1:41:40] of tucker carlson who is at a different generation and a different time and a different thing
[1:41:45] i think there might be something of that where it's like dude this looks you know what
[1:41:48] i'm saying like to me like that i also think and this is something i've struggled with
[1:41:53] myself um maybe like a little bit of imposter syndrome or something or just the fact that
[1:41:58] guys like me and you it's a little bit weird when you're kind of like you know like you're
[1:42:02] grinding and you're doing your job you're doing what you do it was we do shows and then
[1:42:06] like you kind of look up all of a sudden and you're like oh i'm like kind of up here in
[1:42:11] this you know what i mean like there's a lot of like people who are doing shows who aren't
[1:42:14] like it.
[1:42:16] but you know like i had this when i was debating alex barrington who just is fucking horrible
[1:42:21] and i probably never should have done that it got sucked it is i'm embarrassed by it
[1:42:24] you know um but i mean you know whatever it's just it's like the same thing i think you
[1:42:28] have sometimes like where's like there's got to be a price tag to this like you can't be
[1:42:32] allowed to just shit talk me like that you know like especially when and for whatever
[1:42:35] reason there's something about me my personality but i'm much more offended by someone calling
[1:42:44] me a holocaust denier than i am by someone being.
[1:42:47] a holocaust denier if that makes sense because it's just like a fucking dirty trick to try
[1:42:52] to get me with and then there is i mean we didn't get it we could talk a little about
[1:42:55] the holocaust if you want before we end but like there isn't like i do believe the holocaust
[1:42:59] happened i do have family who's suffered in it i also like i said before don't believe
[1:43:04] that that should be like in that suffering should be imposed on every everybody else
[1:43:09] and i don't think it makes sense that everyone ought to be going to our museum or something
[1:43:12] like i find that to be weird but to claim that i'm denying that is like a real fucked-up thing
[1:43:17] to be and in my mind i was like you're fucking you work for the new york times dude you pinned
[1:43:22] this to your twitter like this accusation of me but then i kind of noticed as we were debating
[1:43:27] that like in my mind i'm like dude you're the fucking new york times guy i'm some comedian
[1:43:31] and he's like dude you're dave smith i'm just alex barron like he kind of had that yeah he
[1:43:37] didn't exactly say that but i almost started to realize that it's like oh yeah i guess i kind of
[1:43:41] gotta like recalibrate in a way and i would just suggest just just humbly suggest that like while
[1:43:47] you view it as like tucker and candace are up here and i'm just this guy down here even the guys at
[1:43:53] the top as i've gotten to meet them they're also just people and they also just like even that when
[1:43:56] you're like when you're talking shit on your live stream you're like i don't know i'm a fucking kid
[1:44:00] in my basement talking shit on my live stream but actually like maybe they heard some of that shit
[1:44:03] you know and like actually and they look at it much more of like a a parody relationship like i
[1:44:08] know like i just know that you and i don't this is nothing that tucker ever told me i'm literally
[1:44:13] just speculating but like you went at tucker pretty hard i remember after the
[1:44:18] 2020 election yeah when he was basically saying i've not seen any evidence that this thing was
[1:44:22] stolen and to be fair like you know you would add him in a pretty harsh way and so i'm just saying
[1:44:27] things like that like i think guys like me and you often feel like well what's the who the fuck
[1:44:32] am i i'm just some guy talking shit whereas like people see more than you think and they are aware
[1:44:37] of it yeah well and in and i get that but with tucker in particular the fed if he came out and
[1:44:48] he's a fed agree and i and he said i know that and it's like but i'm me and i know that's not true so
[1:44:54] how can you know something that's not true like and people don't have to believe me but i know
[1:45:00] what i know and tucker knows what he knows and um i've been accused of being a fed by several people
[1:45:06] that i'm i'm here to ruin libertarianism i'm here to do all this it's an amusement of course i've
[1:45:11] been accused of being on qatar's payroll which is like when do they start sending the money i have
[1:45:17] no idea yeah yeah i'm doing it i'm doing it i'm doing it i'm doing it i'm doing it i'm doing it
[1:45:18] everything come on guys yeah um so yeah no i get look and obviously that's licensed for you to
[1:45:24] respond more than licensed for you to respond so i understand that i couldn't like obviously i love
[1:45:29] tucker and i love canvas they've just both been very good to me but i could never tell you like
[1:45:33] oh you shouldn't go back and then in fact as i was watching it i was like well everyone's gonna
[1:45:41] go to work here because also like that's kind of you know it's you're brawling with a brawler
[1:45:50] if you try to do that and so
[1:45:51] obviously i understand that that was uh going to be the response um i would i guess from my
[1:45:58] perspective because like even what you're saying with candace with the frankists and stuff like
[1:46:01] you know or the bridget macron stuff you know like with a lot of this stuff i try to be somewhat
[1:46:06] fair like um i try not just to dismiss a conspiracy because it sounds crazy because like hey i know
[1:46:13] there's lots of crazy conspiracies that are in fact true but at the same time like i said to
[1:46:16] you before it's like i'm just always 10 books behind i'm always there's there's people i love
[1:46:22] reading them whoever they are and i'm just like i'm always 10 books behind i'm always there's
[1:46:23] just put out books i still haven't gotten so i guess i haven't read jim bovard's new book and i
[1:46:27] want to but it's just so much shit to fuck it and you're like i can't even follow you down this
[1:46:31] conspiracy rabbit hole to debunk it you know what i mean like i just can't um but i would say that
[1:46:36] you know me personally i i would have i would rather candace was just the the chick who worked
[1:46:43] at daily wire and was like i cannot support the slaughter of innocent people like i loved i love
[1:46:48] that she was like i just had a baby and i'm sorry i'm not going to support this shit i thought it
[1:46:53] was so much better than having bill o'reilly you know what i mean and so like and i think you would
[1:47:22] grant that like
[1:47:23] that's fucking all like it is they are important voices i would just hope you would kind of like
[1:47:28] all of us have to do to some degree it's like try our best to remove our own personal thing like you
[1:47:32] slighted me and go look what are we trying to do here um i certainly think as i was saying with the
[1:47:37] jordan peterson thing before and i said this on a podcast at a ron paul's birthday party someone was
[1:47:43] interviewing me clint russell was asking me about this and i said like about you i was like look
[1:47:47] douglas murray might think i shouldn't be on big shows and like other people might think you
[1:47:53] shouldn't be on big shows but you know what
[1:47:54] you're here like there's no more debate about this douglas murray it's like yeah i'm as big as you
[1:48:01] without the institutional background so you don't get to say i don't get to be here and i think the
[1:48:05] same thing is true with you and the groipers it's like nobody's being vanquished we're all here and
[1:48:11] in fact what needs to happen is not vanquishing people but incorporating and i think that um
[1:48:16] tucker and candace and people like that like i just think all these voices are so important
[1:48:21] and i you know what i mean i hope you would like kind of think about and i do and i i grant that on
[1:48:26] all the even throughout these feuds i've said they're both important and they're pushing people
[1:48:30] in the right direction but i think it's totally the opposite i think that you know like with
[1:48:35] candace in particular she she brought me out under false pretenses and then tried to vanquish me i
[1:48:42] think i think that's what that was or or that was a way of putting me down or something because
[1:48:47] i had just had my biggest show ever in the middle of the war she invites me out the next day and
[1:48:53] her whole show is you hate jews for being jewish you're a jewish you're a jewish you're a jewish
[1:48:56] you're a real racist you're the and it wasn't friendly it was nasty she was nasty to me and
[1:49:02] then afterwards she wouldn't let it go it didn't play well at all because in the interview she goes
[1:49:09] she goes well you got triggered i said i don't think so she goes well people are gonna and
[1:49:13] nobody agreed people were furious about the paywall they're pissed at the way she treated
[1:49:17] me it was universally negative and she wouldn't let it go and then she got to come in and say
[1:49:22] well you lied the reason people didn't like it is because you lied about it and
[1:49:27] lady you know you you got to take the l you were out of pocket it didn't work it backfired
[1:49:33] so i could coexist with her i was willing to do it before i'd even be willing to do it now and
[1:49:38] the same is true with tucker and i think tucker's more rational maybe he's a guy or something or
[1:49:43] i don't know why it helps you know uh but i could coexist with tucker it's just there need there
[1:49:50] needs to be a mutual understanding because i also represent a lot of people and they're when they put
[1:49:55] me down they're not just putting me down they're not just putting me down they're not just putting
[1:49:57] me down they're putting down that whole right-wing flank of the issue and i don't need everybody to
[1:50:02] agree with me we can we can i love the disagreement i love this conversation and we disagreed about
[1:50:07] some things here too it's just when people say you're a fad you're a racist f you you shouldn't
[1:50:13] be a lot on the shows you're just an asshole it's like i'm not an asshole i've been fighting for 10
[1:50:18] years to say the stuff that many of these people just got around to saying last year and that
[1:50:23] that's just so yeah it's like a little irritating when they do that to me
[1:50:27] but i'm willing to be the bigger person no it's good well look i mean i think it's good look dude i
[1:50:32] mean all of us are trying to you know figure out kind of now that we're in this this position like
[1:50:38] how exactly to manage that and i i think like kind of as we were talking about before it's like we're
[1:50:42] kind of you we're united in our opposition to a thing but now we have in a lot of ways look it's
[1:50:48] been decentralized it's not like any one of us is exactly like the mainstream guy but like we're
[1:50:54] the mainstream media now you know like it's us it's it's like i mean it's it's it's it's it's it's
[1:50:57] honestly like there's particularly like daytime shows like you're lapping it's like me too you
[1:51:04] know so it's it's an interesting thing all right so maybe we could talk about this a little bit and
[1:51:09] really test my youtube channel what do you because i think a lot of this i remember when we first
[1:51:15] spoke um or one of the podcasts when we first spoke what the big controversy about you that
[1:51:21] at least at least from what i heard from the other libertarians or whatever the world was the uh that
[1:51:27] you're a holocaust
[1:51:28] and that there was the the cookie there's a clip where like a fan makes the cookie monster joke and
[1:51:36] then you like read it like obviously laughing around and joking i remember people selling
[1:51:41] sending me this and going this is clearly like he's joking around at least to some degree
[1:51:45] but then when you were criticizing me you were talking about like me not because my family was
[1:51:50] involved not willing to challenge what is is your view simply like what we were saying before that
[1:51:55] it's like look this happened it was awful but like also all of his
[1:51:59] history doesn't have to revolve around this also it was in the context of a war where like 50 million
[1:52:03] people died and europe was destroyed so like that or are you actually saying like this didn't happen
[1:52:09] the numbers are not because this this now is much with the um the general whatever you want to call
[1:52:17] i hate using the word anti-semitism because it's not even a good word but with the general kind of
[1:52:22] like um hostility toward jewish people this does seem to be something that's like really catching
[1:52:27] fire and i just think is completely wrong like i don't know if i'm being honest with you but i think
[1:52:29] Like, I think it's like Israel killed Charlie Kirk.
[1:52:32] It's like this just isn't actually right.
[1:52:34] It's not actually good history.
[1:52:36] And so anyway, I'm just curious what your thoughts are.
[1:52:38] I also, by the way, sorry, I'll let you go, but I also do recognize, I remember thinking this the last time I had you on.
[1:52:43] It was like this weird dynamic.
[1:52:45] I guess I feel a little freer now.
[1:52:46] But back then, I kind of wanted to ask you about it.
[1:52:49] But then I also realized that if you don't, you're not, you can't even say it because we'll all get fucking nuked.
[1:52:54] So it's like a weird conversation to have.
[1:52:56] But I am curious.
[1:52:57] For me, it was never really about the Holocaust in itself, because early on, I watched a lot of documentaries like the canon of Holocaust denial documentaries and essays.
[1:53:10] And I found a lot of the arguments compelling.
[1:53:12] And then I saw that other people are pushing back on that.
[1:53:15] And I have good friends of mine who are like, you know, their fellow travelers, let's say.
[1:53:21] And they adamantly insist it did happen.
[1:53:24] And they send me blog posts.
[1:53:26] And as soon.
[1:53:27] At a certain point, you sit down and say, so is this really about World War Two history, historicity debate or historiographical debate?
[1:53:37] And to me, I'm sort of missing the point.
[1:53:39] To me, the Holocaust is just like it is just a central part of the Jewish identity story, which is that if the white people get too much power, they're going to kill us all.
[1:53:52] And that means if we don't have enough power, they're going to kill us all.
[1:53:56] If they can critique us, they're going to kill us.
[1:53:58] So, you know, it's it's wrapped up.
[1:54:00] And this has been pointed out before that more Jewish people think that the Holocaust is central to their identity than believe that believing in God is central to their identity.
[1:54:09] And that just tells you about what what Jewish identity really is and how it's political.
[1:54:14] And so to me, the what matters more, I don't know.
[1:54:18] I think it was exaggerated.
[1:54:20] I think it was embellished.
[1:54:22] I don't know that six million exactly died, but I don't know.
[1:54:25] I haven't I'm not an expert and I don't really even care about it.
[1:54:29] I'm not being an expert to me.
[1:54:30] It's more about, like you said, I don't want this trauma imposed on me and for it to define our political order, because that's really the issue that so that part, I think, is 100 percent reasonable.
[1:54:40] And in fact, as you said, that the Holocaust is more central to Jewish identity than God.
[1:54:45] It's certainly true for for nonreligious Jews and even maybe for some religious Jews.
[1:54:51] Like, it is very central to Jewish identity and I think in unhealthy ways.
[1:54:57] And I think absolutely.
[1:54:59] You're right about this being kind of you know, it's it's I love when Darrell Cooper made this point, but it's such a perfect way to put it, but where he was like, look, the founding fathers are Martin Luther King.
[1:55:09] And but you know what I mean?
[1:55:10] Like, it's not like and he goes, you could test that out, like go desecrate a statue of George Washington and then go desecrate a statue of Martin Luther King and see what has more of the reaction.
[1:55:20] And it is like it's really like World War Two and the civil rights movement have become like the American consciousness, you know.
[1:55:29] And.
[1:55:29] And I think the Holocaust and World War Two being the same for Jews.
[1:55:32] And of course, the story becomes this very a historical weird version of it where it's like the creation of Israel stopped the Holocaust or something like that, which is like just not at all true.
[1:55:43] In fact, they had very similar goals, the Zionists and the Nazis at first, which is why they not the Zionists wanted to do business with them.
[1:55:52] I think it was the Nazis.
[1:55:53] Anti-Semitism is the only reason why that didn't happen.
[1:55:57] But I do think it's like and I mean, I've been down this.
[1:56:00] Rabbit hole a bit, but it's like, I really don't actually think it's that exaggerated.
[1:56:03] I mean, it's probably about six million to the person, but like, I think even David Irving, I think he put it between four and five, like, and that was was like on the low end estimate and even four or five.
[1:56:14] It's like, what are we even fucking talking about here?
[1:56:16] It's the same thing.
[1:56:17] So I think like and I guess in a way, because we've gone for a while now, so we can we can wrap up unless there's anything that you wanted to bring up.
[1:56:28] But I do.
[1:56:28] I will say I appreciate that.
[1:56:31] I think, you know, and this isn't I'm not even saying like, you know, because I'm sure that, you know, part of the problem with this stuff, right, is that is from my perspective, is that when you're Jewish, if there is this kind of not amongst you, I don't think.
[1:56:46] But I think maybe some of your your fans, not all of them, where there's this kind of heads, you lose tails.
[1:56:51] I went type thing where it's like, OK, so like if there's a Jew who's for Israel, they go, well, of course.
[1:56:58] And then if there's a Jew who's against Israel, it's like, well, they always control both sides.
[1:57:01] You know what I mean?
[1:57:02] So it's like no matter what you do, you're like kind of in this position where you're like, well, there's nothing I could say here other than, yes, you should hate Jews.
[1:57:10] And they'll be like, OK, finally, a good one or whatever.
[1:57:12] But I do think that, like, like we said before, we're all kind of like figuring out this new world.
[1:57:18] We're all kind of like dealing with our newfound relevance.
[1:57:21] You're also, you know, like how old are you?
[1:57:24] Twenty seven.
[1:57:25] Twenty seven.
[1:57:25] So you're kind of like, you know, you're you're approaching your late 20s.
[1:57:28] And I do really appreciate you kind of like like I really appreciate it.
[1:57:32] But, David, when you said like that, you're like, I'm not a racialist.
[1:57:36] I'm a Christian.
[1:57:36] And that it's like now that you might have some racialist views, but like that being a Christian is first and foremost, like the most important part of your identity.
[1:57:43] I would just really encourage that.
[1:57:45] I think like that's what we need.
[1:57:47] I really think that's like, you know, I told you when I we spoke on the phone when we first planned this.
[1:57:53] And I told you the video that I saw of you was like a clip that was going super viral, which you, I think, were touching on earlier today, where you were just like.
[1:58:02] We were talking about how like a Christian just can't support killing people like this.
[1:58:06] And you were and you even said you were like, look, I don't want them living here.
[1:58:10] But like that, we that we also can't support killing them over there.
[1:58:13] And I just thought there was something really powerful about that.
[1:58:16] It's like kind of because it's a it's a paradigm shattering thing where someone would look at this and go like, wait, but I've been led to believe this is like the most horrible person.
[1:58:24] And he is the one who cares about this.
[1:58:26] And I kind of think like I would just hope that that's you know what I mean?
[1:58:30] Like that.
[1:58:31] Yeah.
[1:58:31] Continue kind of to push that and all that stuff.
[1:58:34] I will say I really, really appreciate you coming out and traveling for this.
[1:58:39] I know it took us.
[1:58:40] It's hard.
[1:58:41] We're both busy.
[1:58:41] And so it's hard to schedule these things.
[1:58:43] Really, really enjoyed this conversation.
[1:58:45] I hope we do it again soon.
[1:58:46] Me, too.
[1:58:46] Absolutely.
[1:58:47] And thanks for having me.
[1:58:48] And I will say just to kind of close it off, you know what I love.
[1:58:53] I love honesty.
[1:58:54] I like people that care about the country.
[1:58:57] I love people.
[1:58:58] And I think as long as that's the agreement, there won't be war.
[1:59:01] You know, there won't be violence.
[1:59:02] And we can talk and we can get along.
[1:59:03] And that's really what it's about.
[1:59:05] So I really I enjoyed the conversation as well.
[1:59:07] So I'd be happy to do it again.
[1:59:09] All right.
[1:59:09] On my show.
[1:59:10] Sure thing.
[1:59:11] All right.
[1:59:11] Everybody, thank you for listening.
[1:59:13] Catch you next time.
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