Dave Smith x Nick Fuentes Full Interview

[0:00] uh, to do this. I really appreciate it. I've, uh, we've been, you know, I've wanted to do this [0:05] for a while. I felt like this was a, uh, a show that was supposed to happen, which I don't often [0:10] feel, but I w I, and I've been feeling this way for a while. Um, so I really appreciate you doing [0:15] this. You know, we, me and you, we were just talking about it outside, I believe it was 2019. [0:20] You did my podcast. We were like, Twitter had convinced there. Uh, I think it was something [0:26] like people on Twitter were like, you will, you'll never debate Nick the knife or whatever. [0:30] And, and I was like, uh, you know, in my mind, I was like, I'm a scared Nick Fuentes. Okay. I'll [0:35] go to bed. And I didn't know much about you. I thought we had a really good show. Um, we ended [0:39] up not really debating and nerding out on the stuff that we both enjoy. And then you came back [0:45] on my show. It was like right after you had got kicked off YouTube, I think that was like the [0:50] thing. And then, and then we did a debate, like a very broad kind of authoritarianism versus [0:56] liberalism. [0:56] Liberty type debate. And I want to say it was, I think late 2020. Yeah, that sounds right. Cause [1:02] it was right at the end. I think of the, we were like talking about the year of the lockdowns and [1:06] stuff like that. Um, so that was five, five years ago. And both of us in the last five years have [1:13] really pretty dramatically risen in, in stature, you know, whatever, much bigger audiences, [1:19] much more, you know, just bigger audiences, more big moments, more, you know, and so it just kind [1:26] of seemed like a thing that should. [1:27] Happen. And also on top of that, we are both, you know, we, I don't know exactly like what [1:34] percentage it would be, but I think we have a lot of overlap in our audience. Like I hear a lot of [1:38] people who are like, you too are the guys that I listened to. And we both kind of had this weird [1:43] thing where, so like after I had you on again, even though you were not nearly as big as you are [1:49] now, but it was still like, well, you know, I got all this, you know, outrage. I was constantly [1:54] asked to denounce you. And then given my personality, I was like, fuck you. [1:58] And then of course, more recently, you know, when you were going on Candace's show, I was a topic of conversation there. [2:07] So, and, and as I said to you, when I first reached out to you about doing this, you were like, well, yeah, I mean, [2:11] everyone's always asking you about me and everyone's always asking me about you. So really, it seems like [2:15] we probably should just be talking to each other. And I kind of, in a weird way, and this is something [2:20] where I just feel like I know this about you. When I first thought I was like, oh, I think we should do [2:25] this. And I think we should do it in person. And I think we should do a long. [2:28] I knew that you were going to say yes. I just kind of knew, like I was, I knew you were going to be like, [2:33] yeah, let's do it. I appreciate that very much. Absolutely. Yeah. Likewise. No, I feel [2:38] the same way. I mean, and we both are from the Israel critical side and always have [2:43] been and kind of representing different factions, I think, because you obviously your stories, you were [2:48] the Ron Paul revolution guy, libertarian, and you come at it from the perspective [2:54] of the wars that the neocons are pro-Israel and they're driving the foreign [2:58] conflict. And I come at it from the far right Trump revolution. So it's like a generational [3:03] thing. It's an ideological thing. And I'm also Catholic. You're obviously Jewish. So [3:08] there's a religious element, an ideological element. And it's interesting how in this [3:13] moment, when everyone is talking about these issues, we kind of represent maybe two different [3:18] sides of that or like a nuanced difference in the Israel critical side. So it is. I said yes, [3:25] because I think it's going to be just a really great conversation. I think that you're [3:29] super. [3:29] Super intelligent. No, the relevant facts. So do I. We have some disagreements, but I think we agree on far more than we disagree about. [3:38] But but yes, I really just thought it'd be an excellent conversation. [3:41] Yeah, I think in many ways, particularly amongst young people, me and you, in a sense, represent the spectrum. [3:49] It seems to be of almost like where young people are going, whereas like there is no pro-Israel spectrum. [3:55] It's like, are you like a kind of non-interventionist type? [3:58] Or are you more of an identitarian, non-interventionist type? [4:01] Right, right, right. [4:02] It's not really. That kind of seems to be the thing. And, you know, I was I I'll tell you this. [4:07] OK, I'll start. I'm sorry by making the pettiest of points, but I promise it's in service of making a real point. [4:14] But so because, you know, it might come up like you've been doing a lot of big shows lately. [4:18] You said Patrick Bitt, David showed a Glenn Greenwald show, several others. [4:21] And it may come off like that's why I'm now having you on. But just to be clear, as you will back up, I reached out to you before. [4:29] You had done those shows. And this is actually when I started thinking about it was it was when Jordan Peterson went on the Joe Rogan experience, I believe the last time he was on. [4:39] And it was it was a couple of days after I had debated Douglas Murray, which still to this day is the most viewed show I've ever done and might be for a very long time. [4:51] I mean, it's got like there's like five million views on YouTube and I got another 10 on Spotify and then clips everywhere. [4:57] I mean, we'll see if we can beat it, but I don't know. [4:59] But so there was this big thing and it kind of became like, you know, the topic of conversation for a little bit. [5:06] And so then Joe Jordan Peterson comes in. [5:09] And so I was real interested in that because, you know, obviously he's working at the Daily Wire now. [5:14] And and so it was like, I know this is going to come up. [5:16] I'm kind of curious what his take on this is going to be. [5:19] Now, I bring this up. Literally, I'm not trying to trash Jordan Peterson. [5:23] I respect Jordan Peterson. [5:24] I think there's I think there's many aspects of his work that were very. [5:29] Very valuable. [5:29] I mean, I have a baby brother around your age, not a baby, but I still call him that. [5:35] But I bought Jordan Peterson's book for him. [5:38] Like I thought his work was great for young men. [5:41] And obviously, I don't love so much the stuff he's he's been doing lately. [5:45] But so Jordan Peterson comes on. [5:47] I was curious what his take on the debate was going to be. [5:50] I knew he was going to get asked. [5:51] He kind of dodges it. [5:53] He goes, oh, everybody involved did a really good job, which, first of all, no one on the face of the earth thinks everyone involved. [5:59] It's very good. [6:00] Right. [6:00] There are the ranges, insane Zionists who think Douglas Murray won and everybody else. [6:05] There's no nobody thinks he did a good job and he did a good. [6:08] But OK, so he does that. [6:10] And then he just goes on a thing about the Groypers. [6:12] Now, he mentions the Groyper. [6:14] He starts going off on psychopathy and who needs to be kept out and who can be allowed in. [6:21] And OK, so first of all, it just I mean, the obvious that to me, I was like, well, first off, if we're talking about psychopaths in this. [6:30] Context, that's where we go to. [6:32] There's people who don't like Jews. [6:34] I mean, like, OK, then maybe we'll argue about this a little bit later. [6:37] But like, OK, leaving that aside, that's the because, you know, there's there's the destruction of a people. [6:43] I mean, like, like Nikki Haley is signing bombs that are about to be dropped on human beings. [6:49] And you want to have a conversation about who's a psychopath. [6:51] And then also, I thought, like, to invoke you without mentioning your name, but to mention Groypers, like those are your fans. [7:01] Right. [7:02] I mean, your fans. [7:02] So just mention the guys that feel like if you were like, you know, there's a real problem with people who listen to Dave Smith's podcast. [7:08] Yeah. [7:08] Like, well, then. [7:09] And so I just I remember just kind of thinking like that just seemed like really unfair. [7:15] You were not a participant in the thing. [7:18] It wasn't even like a question. [7:19] And so it was like kind of and then just being me, I was like, my first thought was like, you know, Jordan Peterson should if he's going to say that he should sit down with Nick Fuentes. [7:28] And then I was like, you know what? [7:30] I should sit down with Nick. [7:31] Like, it's been a while. [7:32] And then it was something I just kind of kept thinking about anyway, as just a bit of a rant. [7:36] But that really was what got me first thinking, like, we should do something again. [7:40] Yeah. [7:40] Well, in that debate, I think raised a lot of interesting questions, you know, because it is kind of it is the thing of the moment, which is that there's been this explosion of inquiry and conversation about Israel, about the Jews conspiracy surrounding that the nature of it. [7:59] You know, the big question I always get asked on my show is like, what? [8:03] What is it? [8:03] What is this thing that's going on? [8:06] And the reason that this is happening is because the taboo has gone away. [8:09] There's a few things there simultaneously. [8:11] The censorship around the topic has dissipated. [8:14] And the and then I think right after the taboo went away, largely because of the war in Gaza, I think people are so outraged to kind of blew the lid on that. [8:22] And now that kind of is the central question of the role that these personalities play in mediating that, because I think there's at this point a recognition by everybody on the whole. [8:33] Planet, there's no denial anymore. [8:36] You know, nobody can avoid it. [8:37] Even Netanyahu is doing damage control with Shapiro. [8:39] I think that was yesterday that everybody is talking about this. [8:44] Everyone's furious. [8:45] Everyone is not does not have that conventional pro-Israel thing anymore. [8:51] And now I feel like there are people like a Peterson or Shapiro or even a Charlie Kirk, which I'm sure we'll get into that are trying to kind of they recognize that the reality has already changed. [9:02] Yeah. [9:02] But there's they are. [9:04] And in denial, in a sense, trying to negotiate like what that's going to look like, because they recognize the old consensus is gone, not coming back. [9:13] People are not going to be pro-Israel like they were the genies not going back in the in the lamp, you know, the proverbial lamp. [9:19] But they also recognize that is there a limiting principle to the conversation? [9:24] Is there something outside the Overton window? [9:26] And if you've lost all your credibility, how can you now step in and say, OK, we're lying before, but now go no further? [9:34] And I think that's it's an open question where it goes from here that everybody's asking. [9:38] Yeah, I think that's right. [9:39] And I think there's, you know, with a lot of those guys, it was I think there was just a moment that and I didn't plan on the Douglas Murray thing being that, you know, I'm in my you know, I'm a libertarian, so I'm half autistic. [9:52] Like, I'm a day walker, which is why I'm the best libertarian, but I'm half that. [9:56] And so I just went, oh, dude, we're going to debate the war in Gaza and the war in Ukraine. [10:00] This is great. Like, this is going to be a huge show. [10:02] It'll be. And I did not expect it. [10:04] Become a referendum on experts and the new media, partially just because it was such a bad strategy for for Doug. [10:10] I mean, it was it was a way to avoid the debate that I think he thought he couldn't win. [10:14] Right. But it wasn't it was obviously not going to work out well. [10:18] But one of the things that was kind of interesting in seeing all of these, especially this kind of like Jordan Peterson coming in was was interesting because he is really to a lot of people like he's almost especially with young people who's the core group who Israel's losing. [10:32] Well, this is a guy who really shaped a lot. [10:34] I mean, he's a guy who really shaped a lot of young people's minds. [10:35] And so if anybody was kind of positioned to be able to reel them back in, it might be him. [10:41] And even that didn't kind of work. [10:42] And I think something fundamental to it was that it was like with all these guys, with Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro, your whole calling card was we have these conversations. [10:55] We don't shut voices out. [10:56] You have to win the argument. [10:58] We're against cancel culture. [10:59] And then they're like to watch them going on these tours of like Rogan. [11:04] Shouldn't. [11:04] Have Darryl Cooper on anymore and all this. [11:06] You're like, yeah, but come on, dude. [11:07] Now, what are you? [11:08] You just kind of you expose yourself for being exactly what you claim not to be. [11:13] And that is something that people don't get over easily. [11:16] Right. Well, and no one's really on their side on that, you know, because Douglas Murray, when he said, well, have you been to Gaza and and all these other types, the appeal to authority? [11:26] It's like in a way, this is just another chapter and kind of like a larger saga that goes back to covid. [11:34] Ukraine. [11:34] Trump even, which is that we're led to believe that these institutions are they have the authority to tell us what's going on and what to think and what's acceptable. [11:44] And we know that they lied about all that, lied about the facts, the opinions. [11:48] They were probably not even in good faith. [11:51] And now they want to come out and tell us, well, you know, but like you said, we can't have that conversation or Darryl Cooper's too far. [11:58] You know, they're doing the same thing to him that they did to you where they said, well, you're not a historian and it's like, OK, well, neither. [12:04] Is really anybody does anybody have, you know, the the right to critically think, you know, to read books or to offer an opinion or are we literally just going to be told this is what you're allowed to think because, you know, we're the expert. [12:17] Well, it's also the other thing, dude, because I'm like, I got in this. [12:22] Well, I guess not. [12:22] I mean, you were you were doing your thing, I think, at the time, too. [12:25] But for whatever reason, I got in like Adam, not really in, but I was I got I was doing shows at Fox News for a while. [12:32] There were like a few particular hosts who were really good. [12:35] To me and had me on. [12:35] It was really it was like Kennedy and, you know, she she had a libertarian show there. [12:41] So it made sense. [12:42] And then Greg Gutfeld used to put me on. [12:44] Tom Shalhoub used to put me on just like back even in the day. [12:48] And then I've done a bunch of their shows since. [12:50] And it's like one of the things that bugs me about the whole conversation, too, is you're like, look, I'm not saying there's a lot of garbage online. [12:56] So I'm not like defending, you know, there's there's dumb political commentators online. [13:00] But when you're talking about like the elite level or like I'm just saying. [13:04] Objectively. [13:05] Speaking, I used to do those panels. [13:06] If you go back and look at any of the panels I was on out there somewhere, it's just always me carving everybody up because they don't know anything. [13:13] Like it was, dude, me and you are compared to the old guard, elite, elite, elite level. [13:19] Like they maybe would occasionally get someone in there. [13:21] You know, occasionally you'd have Pat Buchanan on a segment. [13:23] You'd have someone who like Ron Paul, someone who really knew what they were talking about. [13:27] But like every day on cable news. [13:29] So the idea of being like, well, you're not an expert. [13:32] Darryl Darryl Cooper is not an expert. [13:34] Do you know what? [13:34] You're hearing on cable. [13:36] Do you know how much more Darryl Cooper knows than ninety nine point nine nine percent of people talking about the topic? [13:43] So there's something about that that really bugged me. [13:45] But I also think specifically with specifically with Jordan Peterson, I just thought it was like, dude, you're talking about a young man. [13:56] You know, you're talking about a following of young people. [14:00] I thought your whole thing was like sticking up for them, not calling them the hatred of evil or something. [14:06] Like that and not like as if you've done something unforgivable that you are now is that like I thought, like, it just seems like, OK, so then if you're saying if you're saying that that Nick Wentz is leading these young men down the wrong path, well, then, OK, maybe they could use some Jordan Peterson in their life then. [14:22] Right, right. [14:23] Like, what? [14:23] Maybe you should take that. [14:25] Maybe it's really important. [14:26] I thought you're supposed to speak up for the voiceless and get all emotional and all that. [14:30] Like, where did all that shit go? [14:31] All of a sudden, there's one thing that's like a subject you're not allowed to talk about. [14:36] And I just think that's bullshit. [14:38] Yeah. [14:39] Well, in Jordan, he even took it a step further. [14:41] I don't know if you saw his tweets about me, but he called me a rat. [14:44] He said Nick Wentz is a rat. [14:47] And then he came back and amended it and said, no, wait, he's not a rat because rats are odious by their nature. [14:53] He said Nick chooses to be a rat. [14:56] He's lower than. [14:57] And it's like and by the way, isn't it also his whole thing like about totalitarianism and like dehumanizing people? [15:04] And and and I said to him. [15:07] And I really was more just like astounded, like you said, because he is different than the others. [15:13] That's like he's always been different. [15:15] Joubiros like an insane Zionist, like operative of Israel, whatever you want to say. [15:20] But Peterson, like you said, he really was very influential for young men. [15:25] And I know that because I was one of them at one point. [15:28] And I had close friends that loved his Bible lecture series, his podcast Maps of Meaning, which was the original book, pulled a lot of young kids away from atheism. [15:37] Major, yeah. [15:38] And towards Christianity and towards conservatism and all of it. [15:42] And you're right. [15:42] His claim to fame was that he was supposed to be this like lodestar for the disaffected young men of the Trump generation. [15:50] And who represents that more than me? [15:52] I'm kind of like that archetypal guy leading those people. [15:56] And and I agree if he's got some issue with me, first of all, why not just call me out? [16:02] It's a weird like thing that the left does, where they say we don't want to platform him. [16:07] We want to give him attention. [16:08] But like you say, what then happened to that whole deal where it's like it's a free marketplace? [16:14] We have to just talk or else we'll fight. [16:16] We have to, you know, have this marketplace. [16:19] So there's just layers of hypocrisy and no one's buying nobody. [16:23] Nobody's buying into that nonsense. [16:25] And it's sad because I think you've lost a lot of credibility. [16:28] But yeah, I mean, I completely agree. [16:30] And and I agree it's sad, you know, and I think and I'm not saying this again to pick on Jordan Peterson. [16:36] It's just like I think it's it. [16:37] He's an important figure. [16:38] It's an important topic. [16:39] And, you know, and this kind of goes to the heart of, you know, back in the before I ever we ever met. [16:46] I mean, we just met in person for the first time. [16:48] But before I ever had you on my show, I had had like I had talked to some of the alt right guys like had Christopher Cantwell on my show, I think a couple of times. [16:57] And I had Richard Spencer on and I had like some of those guys. [17:00] And people at the time, it was like, you know, it was a somewhat risky move. [17:04] It was still in the world where you're like, we might get. [17:06] I don't want to get my channel banned and stuff like that, at least at the moment. [17:09] That feels a little bit safer. [17:11] But one of the reasons why I like talking to those guys or one of the reasons why I did the shows with them was that, well, first of all, I did kind of find the ideas interesting. [17:21] And I'm about like I'm interested in the ideas. [17:24] That's why we do these. [17:25] You know, that's why we do what we do. [17:27] And there there was also I guess I've always thought there was like from my perspective as like a libertarian. [17:35] And like the right wing. [17:36] Libertarian, I think. [17:38] And at least compare, you know, comparatively speaking, I always thought that there was this this weird like I used to talk about this way back in the day when I like 2012, I was doing podcasts. [17:49] No one's listening, but I was doing podcasts and I used to talk about this. [17:52] This is like totally in the pre, you know, it was before woke ism really became a thing. [17:58] And then, of course, before the reaction to woke ism became a thing. [18:01] But even back in like 2012, I used to always say that, like, you know, the president of the United States could like. [18:07] Drop a bomb on a third world country on a wedding and like kill 70 people. [18:13] And then the same day he could say the blacks instead of African-Americans and the latter would be a bigger scandal than the price. [18:20] I like there's something fundamentally wrong with that. [18:22] Like that is a really that's a really sick thing about your society. [18:26] Yeah. [18:26] And there is this this almost like and I think has been for my entire lifetime maybe before that, probably. [18:34] That there's almost this unspoken cultural. [18:35] Yeah. [18:36] Yeah. [18:36] Yeah. [18:37] Yeah. [18:37] Yeah. [18:38] That. [18:38] That there's a moral value that clearly is a left wing value that puts at the absolute top of the hierarchy of outrages bigotry. [18:45] Like bigotry is supposed to be up here at the. [18:47] That's the worst thing in the world that you can be. [18:49] When in fact, like, that is just not my moral outlook on the world. [18:53] You know, bigotry is something we all have in excess. [18:56] I think it's bad. [18:57] But there's much worse things than that. [19:00] And one of the things that I always found very interesting was that the alt-right guys were really antiwar. [19:06] And this also for you in the room. [19:07] You and the Groypers are very anti-war. [19:10] And so to me, in my world, like, war is really a much worse thing than racism. [19:15] I'm not sure how there's a counterargument to that, although we treat it like war is just, that's just policy, and this is the worst thing you can do. [19:22] And so I immediately rejected that. [19:25] And so, in fact, you know, with the Jordan Peterson thing, I'll leave him alone after this, but it's like, you want to talk about psychopaths? [19:29] Like, sir, you were on record saying give them hell. [19:34] That was your response. [19:35] And, you know, for the guy who talks about hell all the time. [19:38] Yeah, right. [19:39] You know, you don't think hell really exists? [19:41] It does. [19:42] You haven't met enough. [19:42] Yeah, go to Gaza. [19:43] Hell does exist. [19:45] You said give them hell, and that's exactly what they got. [19:47] Like, so, you know, maybe examine yourself before you're saying, oh, but he said a thing about the Jews, so he's the dark tetrad. [19:54] But then it just seemed to me, on top of it, so that's like my worldview. [19:58] Like, I don't actually think bigotry is the worst thing. [20:01] I think it can be bad, but I don't think it's the worst thing. [20:03] But then even from, like, say, a liberal. [20:05] World view. [20:07] Isn't, like, Daryl Davis, like, the big hero story? [20:12] And I'm not, like, claiming that that's what I'm doing with you. [20:14] It's not. [20:15] Right, right, right. [20:15] But, like, the idea of, like, you're, like, even the guy who you say is the famous guy who, like, converted all the clowns. [20:21] Well, he did it by talking to them and being decent. [20:24] Just be cool. [20:25] That's, like, rule number one. [20:26] And that always seems so obvious to me, particularly as a Jewish person, you know. [20:32] But I just, like, as a Jew, I would say that. [20:34] But that you're just, like, oh. [20:36] There's these people who hate Jews. [20:37] I was, like, well, I should probably be cool. [20:40] Because it's kind of hard for people to hate someone who's cool to them. [20:43] And it's just so weird to me that everybody else's opinion is, like, no. [20:47] This is the one thing that's unacceptable. [20:49] Bigotry. [20:50] And if you get, oh, the government just passed a law that says they can detain you without charges. [20:53] Whatever. [20:53] But, like, no one's being a bigot about it, right? [20:55] They're doing it to whites and blacks equally. [20:56] Like, okay. [20:57] And then number two, like, what is this thing that we ought to shut people out of the conversation? [21:02] It seems so counterproductive and stupid. [21:04] Well, and it's not even just bigotry. [21:06] In particular, it's words. [21:09] It's not like you even have to do a bigoted thing like you beat up a black person for being black or you discriminate actively. [21:17] It's like if you have said something that sounds racist, is racist, that is worse than murder, war, et cetera. [21:26] And, you know, that was kind of like a phenomenon this summer because I was so outspoken against the war in Gaza. [21:32] And the clips were going around on TikTok and Instagram. [21:35] And a lot of liberals are saying, wait a second. [21:39] Even he is saying this is evil. [21:41] This is the guy we're supposed to hate. [21:43] You know, maybe the broken clock is right twice a day. [21:45] And I was on my show reminding people, like, yeah, maybe I'm racist. [21:50] Maybe we disagree on issues of race. [21:52] But I'm against murder. [21:54] I'm against genocide. [21:56] And like you said, is that not the actual moral paradigm? [22:00] Is like killing, war, famine. [22:03] Are these things not the real evils? [22:06] And maybe bigotry is somewhere further away from that and saying things that might be bigoted further even still from that. [22:14] And we live in a society now where it seems like if you have ever uttered anything that's bad, it haunts you. [22:23] You know, it's like I you look at my Wikipedia page and it's like he's a racist, sexist, homophobe, Islamophobe. [22:30] In 2018, he said this. [22:31] In 2020, he said that. [22:33] And I go on shows and in the news reports, they list like. [22:36] Things I have said, it's like I do a talk show, I talk three hours a day for a living for ten years, and sometimes it sounds controversial or provocative or offensive. [22:46] But doesn't that kind of go with the territory of freedom of conscience? [22:50] If we can think, should we not be able to speak? [22:52] And if we speak, can we not be wrong? [22:54] Can we not be funny? [22:56] Can we not be insensitive or bombastic? [22:59] And and I guess this gets to something about because you think, well, society shouldn't be this way. [23:06] But why? [23:06] Why is it this way? [23:08] People are hanged by their words selectively. [23:12] This is like these are tools of reputational destruction. [23:16] They don't like where you're pointed. [23:18] So then they look for things that are going to hurt people's feelings and say, oh, well, you shouldn't listen to this guy because he said this. [23:25] And I bet you don't like how that sounds, huh? [23:27] Because when you look at I brought this up on PBD, Ben Shapiro in the year 2000, I think, wrote an article about ethnic cleansing. [23:35] It's a transfer is not a dirty word. [23:37] And he's arguing for literal ethnic cleansing. [23:41] Now, I have never argued anything close to that. [23:44] I've never made the argument that we should ethically cleanse blacks from the United States. [23:48] But if I did, I'd be hanged by that forever. [23:51] Yeah. [23:51] Is Shapiro. [23:52] Why and why not? [23:53] He is not reminded of that every time he goes around, not because he apologized for it 20 years later, but because he has all the correct opinions. [24:02] I'm not a target. [24:03] He's got backing. [24:04] And so that that kind of tells us that. [24:06] And by the way, the same applies to all other kinds of scandals. [24:10] If we want to have an open society and that's ironic coming from me, but we do need libertarian Nick Fuentes. [24:17] Yeah, sort of. [24:18] It's like you do need some level of tolerance, actually, to inoculate yourself from using reputational destruction for political control, because that's what I've come to realize about it. [24:28] You're one hundred percent right. [24:30] I used to I used to talk about this all the time because, you know, as you mentioned, I was a big Ron Paul supporter when he was running for president and when he was running for president, [24:37] which is looking back at it now in twenty twenty five is so goddamn funny. [24:40] But they always bring up the racist Ron Paul newsletters, the racist newsletters would. [24:45] By the way, if you look at that, it was so tame compared to like anything like I did. [24:50] It was literally like I think one of the things was they said some one guy in the newsletters said the L.A. riots only stopped because they needed their welfare check or something. [24:58] Right, right. [25:00] It's like anyway, but so anyway, but so and they would and they would run Paul. [25:07] Of all people to try to paint him as a hater of some dude who does not have like a hateful. [25:13] It's just like a Christian baby doctor who's been married to the same woman for 60 something years. [25:17] Like just that they would try to pull that up. [25:19] And then you'd notice like, oh, OK, but like, you know, look at the things Joe Biden has said in his daily things. [25:25] Hillary Clinton has said, look at all the oh, no, they don't ever get hit for that. [25:28] In fact, the the greatest libertarian theorist of all time, Murray Rothbard, in one of his most controversial articles. [25:35] And we talked about this, I think the first time we podcasted together, but he wrote this thing about David Duke and he was making the point how they're like, well, why is it that they hate David Duke so much? [25:45] And I go, oh, you think because he used to be in the clown? [25:48] I go, well, Robert Byrd. [25:50] Yeah. [25:50] The lion of the Senate. [25:51] Like he used to be in the clan. [25:52] No one has a problem with that. [25:54] And so you realize, yes. [25:55] Oh, this is you. [25:56] You make the rules so vague and so narrow that they apply to everyone. [26:00] And then you choose who's going to get hit and who always happens to get hit. [26:04] Very coincidentally. [26:05] The people who don't support Israel in the permanent warfare state. [26:08] Yeah. [26:08] Always, always. [26:10] It's even like with the woke right term. [26:12] You know, the definition they're working off of is you will you will woke into something that makes you woke. [26:18] And by the way, here's a list of all the woke right people. [26:20] And they completely coincidentally happen to be all of the right wingers who don't support Israel and don't support the warfare state. [26:27] But it's always what it is. [26:29] And that's another. [26:31] It's a real problem of the kind of racist thing being what you ruin. [26:35] People over. [26:36] Because, again, we're all a little bit racist and people just don't want to admit it. [26:41] But that's one thing growing up in New York City. [26:43] You learn when you're around different people. [26:45] It's not it's not racism isn't something that belongs to old white men. [26:48] It's something that every group has. [26:51] And actually, minorities in this country are quite willing to be open about it. [26:55] Yeah. [26:56] Which is something that is, you know, not disgusted like liberal academia. [26:59] But like you, you go over to like your Asian friends house and his dad will tell you exactly how black people are. [27:05] How Latino people are, how white people are anyway. [27:09] So, you know, even when I was talking to those alt right guys back in the day and part of the reason I never, you know, I did always find the conversations interesting. [27:19] But I didn't. [27:21] I mean, I always thought like the I always thought the ethno state thing was just like a retarded non starter of like, you know, you're going to turn America into it. [27:30] Like, what is it? [27:31] But I guess I want to say this the right way because I know people judge you for saying this. [27:36] But in some ways. [27:36] I kind of thought that the alt right and then in some ways the groupers in in a way they they were the most honest expression of the Trump moment. [27:49] Yeah, because I think there's a through years of, you know, kind of like political correctness, the postwar consensus, like all of these things. [27:57] It's almost like the older generation was there was an inability to just say it because it was perceived as racist in order to say. [28:06] So there's always code words like we have too much. [28:08] It's a legal immigration. [28:09] We have too much of that. [28:10] You know, we need. [28:11] And when really what the issue was about was that America was being transformed racially. [28:17] I mean, that it was being transformed from a majority white country, which it's always been through its entire history. [28:24] And that's being changed. [28:25] And it just seemed to me that, like, it's pretty obvious that any, you know, if you whatever, like the things the alt right guys all used to say, if you went to Italy and said, hey, we have some demographic projections. [28:37] This place is going to be 90 percent French. [28:39] In a few years. [28:40] Isn't that wonderful? [28:41] I think most of them would go. [28:43] No, that's not wonderful because we want this to be Italy. [28:46] And so and you have this drastic change that was completely forced on the America. [28:53] But there was never a choice. [28:54] There was never a referendum on, like, should America become a majority minority country? [28:59] And that referendum wouldn't have done too good in 1960. [29:02] You know, like if you had asked those people or 65, whenever the bill was, if you had asked those people, it would have been everybody. [29:09] Everybody. [29:09] Including all the black people would have been like, no, we don't. [29:11] You would have got 99 percent voting against it. [29:14] This happened against the will of the Americans. [29:17] And and during that, it's not even like they're like, hey, the people never asked for this, but we're transforming your society anyway. [29:25] But we're going to be really cool about it. [29:27] They didn't even throw that last one in there. [29:28] They went, you didn't ask for this. [29:30] It's happening anyway. [29:31] And fuck you and everything you hold dear. [29:34] And also your son's a girl. [29:36] Like every like on every level. [29:38] And I think that was. [29:39] That was guaranteed to create a pushback. [29:43] And I think it's crazy to not engage with that. [29:47] Yeah, absolutely. [29:48] And I agree. [29:49] That's how I interpreted the Trump revolution when I was 18 and Trump won the election. [29:54] We will. [29:55] And by we, I mean me and my followers at the time or whoever I considered a fellow traveler. [30:00] We viewed the Trump revolution as an implicit white identitarian movement. [30:05] And that that is what was loaded behind every slogan. [30:07] Make America great again. [30:09] OK, when was America great was a great 15 years ago or are you talking about like the 80s? [30:16] And what was America like in the 80s? [30:18] You know, it was a different color, was a different flavor. [30:21] We're going to say Merry Christmas again. [30:23] OK, what does that mean? [30:24] Who doesn't say Merry Christmas? [30:26] Liberals and all these people that practice different religions, Muslims and Jews, for that matter, although Trump was always pro-Israel. [30:34] And we saw Trump as basically just an implicit expression of that. [30:39] And over. [30:40] Time would become more explicit as the changes became sort of ignorable, the demographic changes, the cultural changes. [30:48] And I do agree with your point, because as someone like myself, these were the conversations I was having is maybe like a higher IQ. [30:56] Obviously, I'm not just like a resentful, angry white man who doesn't like change. [31:00] I was looking at this and saying, like you said before, it's not maybe desirable that America changes. [31:06] You recognize this is in progress. [31:09] It has happened. [31:10] It in some sense has happened. [31:12] And and as maybe a young person, though, and being precocious and also impulsive and immature, I was trying to find the vocabulary and language to talk about these things. [31:24] And I was interested in opinions on this. [31:26] And I did talk to people at the time who were willing to engage in me. [31:30] They were few and far between. [31:31] And they they would say, is it really practical and ethno state? [31:36] You know, and clearly there's going to be diversity. [31:38] But how are we going to live with that? [31:40] How? [31:40] We preserve some semblance of our way of life. [31:43] And I feel like if there was more of a recognition that we deserve that, that we deserve engagement, a conversation, recognition, you know, that our grievances are valid, that it's OK to not be OK with the things that are happening. [31:56] Maybe the movement would have taken a different direction or maybe it wouldn't be so much rage and conflict and division. [32:04] But it's like you said, people were told this is the way it's going to be. [32:08] Your neighborhood is destroyed. [32:09] It's irreversibly changed. [32:11] If you have a problem with that, it's because you're a bad person. [32:13] If that makes you angry, we're just going to take away your voice. [32:17] And if you riot, then we're just going to throw you in jail and ruin your life. [32:21] And it was just kind of like I said this on my show, doubling down, always doubling down, ignoring intolerance. [32:29] I know that's like trite at this point. [32:30] But ironically, you know, the proponents of tolerance were intolerant of anyone that wasn't on board and anyone that didn't look like the new American they wanted to make. [32:40] And I think that. [32:41] In some sense, maybe my ascendancy in the past couple of years as well. [32:46] And this is accompanied by and maybe caused it the Overton window moving to the right on everything, on race, on Israel, on crime, on immigration. [32:56] Now that people are are kind of like banging on the door of the liberal elite saying, like, get out now, they're willing to have a conversation. [33:04] Now they're saying, all right, all right, all right. [33:06] OK, maybe we could talk about turning some of this stuff back. [33:09] And I said on my show, I just hope this is. [33:12] The moment when there's introspection and we do talk and we find a resolution, because my fear is that we blow right past that and the worst elements with the worst impulses, because they are vindicated in some sense, are going to take control of this. [33:28] And it is going to be a lot of populist anger, real resentment, real rage, real hatred, cruelty, because I think that's a distinct possibility. [33:36] Yeah, I'm glad you say that. [33:39] And I completely agree with you. [33:41] And I do think I think it's a moment that. [33:43] There should be introspection for everybody, like myself included, you and your audience included, and also those liberals. [33:49] I mean, because it's just, you know, like and perhaps part of this perspective is just that I'm that I'm older than you. [33:56] I don't mean to, like, play that as a card, but I just my point of reference, like I was born in the 1980s and so I grew up, I was born in 83. [34:02] I grew up in the 80s and 90s. [34:04] And this was a different country back then. [34:06] You know, and I think one of the things that's been interesting, I'm really interested to get your point of view on this. [34:12] One thing that's been interesting. [34:13] For me about, say, like the the cultural transformation, the most recent one that we've lived through with the woke insanity being rolled back and the censorship being rolled back, which are very related, I think. [34:24] And I think there's certain things you could point to that were like big moments, like I think the the Bud Light and the Target campaigns were like a big moment. [34:32] Like it was one of the first times that like big corporations got a black eye over this. [34:36] And even if they gain that money back and they're like, you lose billions of dollars, that starts getting people thinking about this stuff. [34:44] And then obviously, Elon buying Twitter and then just kind of Zuckerberg wanting to be cool or whatever it is exactly the government pressure being taken off. [34:52] I don't know if we know exactly what it is, but like we're but one of the things that's been interesting is like, I think for people like my perspective, being 42, is that I think a lot of us were like, oh, good. [35:05] Like we can go back to not having everything so racialized and having everything so, you know, like just, you know, I just think that stuff's not good. [35:13] And then, you know, that is not at all what's happened. [35:18] And in fact, I think, you know, like it's been kicked into higher gear. [35:22] And one of the things I've been thinking about a lot with that is that, you know, it's probably just from my perspective, being my age, it's much easier for me to go. [35:30] All right, let's just go back to like the before time when things before this woke insanity, things weren't that crazy, at least culturally, whereas I think your audience and part of mine, but more so your audience, which is younger, naturally. [35:45] They lived through it in a different way than I ever did, you know, and, and they're, you know, you think about like that, what was the kid's name, Sam, Sam, Nicholas, the guy they tried to ruin this kid's life for the crime of being an angel. [36:01] I mean, dude, Nick, man, I am lucky that there wasn't social media or podcasting or any like shit when I was a kid. [36:08] But I remember saying on that show, man, if me and my friends, when we were teenagers, if those black Israelites, because we were. [36:15] Just little fucking hooligans from Brooklyn, like we were like, if they had come up and started talking all that shit to us, and the neighbor, you guys are colonizers, we, we would have immediately been like, that's right, bitch, we took your shit, didn't we? [36:26] Oh, yeah, you go, you raped our women. [36:28] Oh, and you didn't do shit like we would have just immediately started talking shit back to them. [36:32] We're probably going to fight this kid does nothing to the Catholic kid who's like in there for a ride. [36:37] So he just smiles. [36:38] He just stands there and they tried to ruin his life over that. [36:41] And I think, you know, for a lot of people that you talk to. [36:45] Yeah. [36:45] You know, these are like, I'm not saying they were black people growing up in the Jim Crow South, but they really were. [36:52] They really did come up under a system that was overtly bigoted against them. [36:58] It was like, hey, it is. [36:59] It is the law of the land that you will be denied opportunities. [37:03] We're looking to put women and people of color and everything except you straight white man. [37:07] We're looking at everything else. [37:08] Your university hates your guts. [37:10] Hollywood hates your guts. [37:12] The media, the political class. [37:14] And I get it's a big deal. [37:17] It's a big ask after all of that. [37:19] When you get, you know, the leg up to go, can you be cool now? [37:24] And so I understand where that's a tough thing, you know, to ask at the same time. [37:28] I do think, as you mentioned, we're not going to live in a white ethnostate. [37:31] The 1960s, we can't go back to 1965 and undo the Immigration Act. [37:35] And this is going to be a multiracial society of some sort. [37:38] And we ought to think about, like, OK, how do we move forward in a way that's conducive to peace and prosperity, which is kind of what we all on some level want? [37:46] Yeah, it's it's a difficult question, because I guess it comes down to multiracialism itself, because we do live in different America. [37:56] There was, I'm told, the consensus in the 90s and the early noughts where people describe race relations as generally good. [38:05] And, you know, we could talk about why that is. [38:08] I mean, people say that that's only after there was this intense anti-crime intervention, the crime bill and Giuliani and stop and frisk and all that. [38:16] You know. [38:17] But people say things are pretty good. [38:18] But America was also a lot less diverse. [38:21] And so we've undergone this political transformation. [38:24] And on the other side of it, we do have a much different America. [38:27] And the question is, now that we really do have like these large groups of different races in the country, can there be a brand new political order that's based on understanding? [38:38] And it's it comes down to the question of that in itself. [38:43] And to me, all these little things that they were talking about 20 years ago or 20 years later. [38:47] About 20 years ago or 10 years ago, representation, microaggressions, opportunity. [38:52] It's really about power. [38:54] That's ultimately what it comes down to. [38:56] It's about who will predominate, who will be preeminent when you're talking about, for example, DEI. [39:03] That's saying we want the spots at Harvard because you know who is scouting Harvard talent? [39:09] The biggest corporations, law firms. [39:11] And we want to be in the law firms. [39:13] We want to be on the boards of the biggest companies because we want power. [39:16] Right. [39:17] And we want power to help ourselves. [39:19] We want that for black people. [39:20] We want that for Hispanics, for Asians. [39:22] And so it does come down ultimately to power sharing and power sharing and even wealth sharing. [39:28] It comes down to the distribution or allocation of resources. [39:32] It's contentious because whites are necessarily losing power. [39:37] They used to have all of it. [39:39] And now they're sharing it. [39:40] Now they're going to have half of it or a quarter of it. [39:43] And what's more is if another group has power over you. [39:46] There's like an inherent suspicion because it's like, well, this guy's not really looking out for me because he doesn't look like me and he didn't come from where I came from. [39:54] And he's not like me. [39:56] And the problem with this is after there's so much conflict, they the nonwhites don't trust whites. [40:03] And the whites are rightly skeptical of the nonwhites because the nonwhites seem to have a license to hate whites. [40:10] Nonwhites have like inherent distrust, basically like a veiled hatred and resentment. [40:15] And they're totally they feel completely able to express that. [40:19] And so the fundamental question is how now do the races share power in a way that isn't contentious? [40:27] How do we find an understanding? [40:29] And I don't know if that's even possible because the concern from the alt right was always in it, in particular in a democracy, in an open society. [40:38] When politics gets racialized, it basically just becomes like a race war. [40:42] It turns into like a soft form of a racial war. [40:45] Yeah. [40:46] And, you know, now they're saying woke right. [40:49] I think the reason they're doing that and they want to, you know, just kind of get rid of identity politics and find a consensus is because they want for the whites now not to fight the nonwhites. [41:02] They want a situation where, like you said, we're going to have happy liberal whites, blacks, Hispanics, Asians all living together. [41:09] I just don't know how possible that is at this point. [41:13] And that's where people start to talk about. [41:15] Can we disintegrate? [41:16] You know, we were forcibly integrated with immigration. [41:19] And after Civil Rights Act, can we now go our separate ways? [41:23] I don't know that that's actually even a good thing, though. [41:25] I don't know that that's even like a good answer. [41:27] But I would say where it starts is just with honesty. [41:31] Ultimately, there's got to be a recognition that there are legitimate grievances on both sides and they're illegitimate grievances. [41:40] Right. [41:41] There are legitimate voices expressing those grievances that actually because I said this on the Charlie Kirk show. [41:46] After Charlie got shot, I think there was a real threat of like war. [41:51] I think there still is because left wingers are shooting people and blowing stuff up and eventually a right winger is going to retaliate. [41:57] And then is it going to be like the 60s and 70s? [42:00] That's a question. [42:01] But I said on my show after Charlie died, the important thing is let's get a new consensus of people that don't want that. [42:09] They don't want war. [42:10] They don't want their opponents to die. [42:12] They don't want to murder each other. [42:14] I said I'm Christian. [42:15] I don't believe in murder. [42:16] I don't believe in revenge. [42:17] I said not all people are Christian and not all Christians believe that actually. [42:22] And so I think moving forward, there needs to be an uncomfortable coming together of people that have grievances, legitimate grievances with each other, but who both want harmony, want to live in peace, don't want bloodshed, leaders from both sides to come together. [42:40] But I'm not optimistic. [42:41] I think that the most cynical calculating people rise to the top. [42:45] They will incite and exploit the divisions and try to vie for control. [42:51] And I think conflict is more likely than peace at this point. [42:54] Yeah, it's very hard. [42:55] It's very hard to keep those because it's so easy. [42:58] It's so easy. [42:59] And by the way, just because you mentioned it, and I did say this publicly a bunch, but I really did appreciate your episode after Charlie Clark. [43:06] Thank you for that. [43:07] I was on Piers Morgan debating that Brandon Tatum, the cop guy. [43:14] And that was what he was. [43:15] He said, I was a terrible person for giving you credit for that show. [43:20] And then his whole argument was like, he goes, Nick is disingenuous. [43:24] He doesn't mean that. [43:25] And it's like, you know, whatever. [43:26] I didn't even like spend that much time on it and the thing. [43:28] But it was just funny. [43:29] It was like in my head. [43:30] I was like, wait. [43:31] So in your worldview, like Nick is disingenuous. [43:34] He's the leading neo-Nazi. [43:36] It's like, OK, so the leading neo-Nazi is calling for peace. [43:39] Like, is that not? [43:40] Can we at least acknowledge that's preferable to like the other outcome? [43:43] Right. [43:44] Right. [43:45] Another topic, you know, I agree with your assessment, unfortunately, that it's kind [43:49] of less likely that this has a positive outcome than a negative one. [43:52] But I do think that, you know, I look at it like like I was born in 1983, which, you know, [43:58] to me does not feel like that long ago. [44:00] I still feel like you, man, except my knees, my knees really don't feel like you. [44:06] But, you know, I was born in 1983. [44:08] This is 20 years, less than 20 years, 19 years after the Civil Rights Act. [44:13] Right. [44:14] So it's like it kind of does make sense in a way that perhaps there was like a different outlook. [44:21] Only 20 years after the civil. [44:23] And now it's 2025. [44:24] Like, this is actually quite a bit further. [44:26] This is 60 years after the Civil Rights Act now. [44:29] And I do think that, like, in order to move forward, the only way to do this would be to to declare. [44:37] Man, I hate saying this word, but actual equality of some sense, like it would actually have to be like, look, nobody's getting discriminated against. [44:43] Under the law, either either nobody has a right to have a you know, their their special their group interest, their group or everybody gets to do it. [44:52] You know, like, I think the way the way it worked, like when I was a kid, it's almost like there was a gentleman's agreement. [45:00] And there was a gentleman's agreement where it was kind of like, look, we know, like, bad things happened to minorities in this country in the past. [45:10] And so we're not going to say, you know, like some of the things that we obviously know. [45:14] And we'll even allow you to say a little bit about us. [45:18] Well, that was kind of the gentleman's agreement. [45:20] And at a certain point, it was like the progressive left particularly just broke this gentleman's agreement. [45:25] And they were like, well, no, we're going to say everything that we want to say. [45:28] And then eventually I feel like, you know, the young white men were kind of like, OK, well, then screw it. [45:33] So then there's no gentleman's agreement anymore. Right. [45:35] And, you know, I remember I remember I'm sure you saw this when Scott Adams had that comment a couple of years ago. [45:44] I guess it was that when. [45:45] Scott Adams, who's unfortunately is, I think, very sick these days. [45:50] Me and him have argued a few times on Twitter, but I was sad to hear that. [45:55] But he said the thing he was like, my advice to white people is just don't be around blacks. [45:58] Like, just move away, move to a different neighborhood where they're not there. [46:01] And I remember first hearing that and going like, Joe, that's fucked up, dude. [46:05] And then like the second after I went, oh, it's fucked up. [46:07] I went, this is exactly what I did. [46:10] That is exactly what I did. [46:11] You know, I mean, I remember me and my wife were looking at the town that we were in. [46:14] We're looking at the town that we ultimately moved to. [46:16] And it's just like like there was like a grading thing. [46:19] You know, when you look at towns and they're like schools, a plus like this, a plus this, a plus crime, a plus this, a plus. [46:25] And they go diversity, D minus. [46:28] And I was like, cool. [46:30] I mean, I get it's not like I don't care, but it's like those other things are important to me. [46:34] And they do seem to be attached to this one. [46:36] And so it's like I think in order to kind of put this fire out, you would have to there would have to be some type of system where it's like, look, like. [46:43] White people are there. [46:47] They can't be discriminated against under the law and they can't be discriminated against in other ways either. [46:52] And they have to also be allowed to say what they want to say. [46:55] Then to your point, there are legitimate grievances that black people have. [46:58] I mean, there is no and this is my own bias, I guess. [47:02] But much of it doing with government policy is almost everything that's handed to them from the state is absolute garbage. [47:07] And their schools are really bad. [47:09] And, you know, there's there's like legitimate grievances there. [47:12] I also think like. [47:13] Welfare has done enormous damage, but you kind of can't just blame all your problems on white people and racism. [47:21] I mean, that actually is not really what's holding black people back in this country. [47:25] And I think we have to be honest about that if we don't want things to go in an ugly direction. [47:30] Yeah. Well, and and, you know, I would say that a lot of what occurred under woke ism. [47:35] I don't think it was all bad necessarily, because I think that, you know, as I get older, I do recognize it. [47:43] It's sort of funny. [47:44] Like when I was a teenager, we were getting called racist for everything. [47:48] Everything was racist, everything. [47:50] And I feel like a lot of people started out saying, what? [47:53] How's that racist? [47:54] I remember used to, like you said earlier, if you called them black and not African-American, like 2012, that was the problem or colored instead of person of color, whatever. [48:03] And he'd say, I don't hate anybody for their race. [48:06] I feel like people have kind of gone full circle. [48:09] And now, 10 years later, people are like they actually hate nonwhite people. [48:13] And go, yeah, I'm racist. [48:15] So what? [48:16] And I don't know. [48:17] I feel like maybe that's a mistake in a sense. [48:20] I mean, I've said I'm racist, but like actually genuinely harboring racial hatred is bad. [48:26] I think it's good as a society. [48:28] We move past that. [48:29] I think it's good as a society. [48:30] We move past a lot of prejudice. [48:33] And I think I agree that the new consensus just needs to be just like you said, that basic conception of fairness, equality. [48:41] And I would. [48:42] It really comes down to specificity with the language. [48:45] Like everyone now talks about are you racist? [48:47] Are you not racist? [48:48] I say, yeah, I'm a little racist. [48:50] I think everyone's a little racist. [48:52] Yeah, we're all a little prejudiced. [48:54] And we all believe in stereotypes. [48:56] And what does that even really mean? [48:58] But do I believe in cruelty, hatred, violence? [49:01] No. [49:02] And I usually like to use those words because anyone who knows me, the number one racist, knows I'm not a cruel person. [49:09] I'm not a hateful person. [49:10] I'm not a violent person. [49:12] Unless I'm put in a self-defense situation in my front door. [49:15] Because that tends to happen. [49:20] And I think that as a country, we could survive being racist. [49:25] We can't survive like ontologically hating each other and not wanting the best for each other and wanting to kill and destroy each other. [49:33] And that's why I think it's really important. [49:35] It's like I said after that show, like we are going to need to fight. [49:39] I do believe there is going to need to be like an intense political battle. [49:41] And people are going to need to choose what side they're going to be on. [49:45] And what side I'm not on is the side where someone gets shot in the neck and you celebrate. [49:50] Or someone gets stabbed in the neck with a knife and you make excuses for it. [49:53] Or even in Gaza, people are being blown to smithereens and you say, give them hell. [49:57] They deserve it, whatever. [49:59] It's like we need to find a way where, and I'm Christian of course, but we need to take most of the right and some of the left even. [50:09] Against the kind of nihilistic elements. [50:11] The nihilistic element on the far left. [50:13] Because I really believe they are the problem. [50:15] I think they are driving a lot of the issues here. [50:18] Yeah, well, I think there's a lot of truth to that. [50:21] And I do agree with you that there was something, you know, it really, it was one of those examples that really pushes you up to the limit of like speech versus citing violence. [50:32] But like there is something like, dude, there was just a major political assassination. [50:36] This is a dangerous moment for this country. [50:38] And you're just making a video about how great it was. [50:40] And I 100% agreed with your take. [50:45] I think it was on Greenwald or Patrick Pitt, David, one of those two shows where you were just like, yeah, they should get fired from their job. [50:51] And like, yeah, I mean, I'm sorry. [50:53] There's like, there is a level. [50:55] And yes, you do have to like, you have to work out your own hierarchy of moral outrages or whatever. [51:00] But again, it's sometimes these things are somewhat arbitrary. [51:04] I shouldn't even say, I guess exactly where you draw the line feels kind of arbitrary. [51:08] You know, in the same way. [51:09] Like, we all know, like, okay, a six year old can't drive a car, but a 25 year old has to be able to like, I don't know, there's somewhere you got to draw the line. [51:16] And like, if a woman is getting fired for posting all lives matter, that's insane. [51:22] But like, you're getting fired for it's like, I don't know. [51:26] You know, I had a friend of mine, a buddy of mine, who made a he got fired from his job because he made a video singing Kanye West's Heil Hitler song. [51:37] I was like, well, yeah. [51:38] Yeah, a lot of employers are going to look at that and be like, yeah, I can't have people do that. [51:45] And that's not nearly, nearly, nearly as bad as celebrating someone who just got murdered. [51:51] By the way, I know you're friends with Kanye. [51:54] Gotta say, dude, Kanye's album, College Dropout, spoke to my soul. [51:59] It was the year I dropped out of college. [52:01] He made this album, College Dropout. [52:03] And I always loved it. [52:04] There's this one really beautiful song on there called Family Business. [52:07] And I heard it earlier today. [52:09] Man, it hits different after Cousins. [52:12] The whole story is about his cousin. [52:14] I always thought it was a nice song. [52:15] But after Cousins, you're like, man, this one has a whole different tone to it. [52:18] Anyway. [52:19] All right, guys, let's take a moment and thank our sponsor for today's show, which is CrowdHealth, a company I've been telling you guys about for many years. [52:27] I love what they're doing. [52:28] They're really creating an alternative to the broken health insurance system. [52:33] And now they have the Black Swan membership. [52:37] It's the healthcare alternative for people who want autonomy over their care, their costs, and their lifestyle. [52:43] They just need a little help with the Black Swan events that happen in life. [52:47] So now for just $95 a month, you get access to a team of health bill negotiators, low-cost prescription and lab testing tools, and a database of low-cost, high-quality doctors vetted by CrowdHealth. [53:00] You stay in control without insurance and their networks dictating your care. [53:04] And what if something major happens? [53:06] You pay the first $15,000, and then the crowd steps in to help fund the rest. 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[54:40] And we're going to make sure that Luis knows that he owes all of his success to us by going to bodybraincoffee.com and using the promo code DAVE20. [54:48] Also, that will get you 20% off your order. [54:51] Step up, fuel your mind, fuel your body, lead from the front, bodybraincoffee.com, promo code DAVE20 for 20% off. [55:00] All right. [55:01] Let's get back into the show. [55:02] So I did. [55:03] This is something else because I texted you. [55:05] I wanted to talk about this. [55:06] And so I wanted to kind of because this was another thing that I heard you bring up recently. [55:11] And it's one that particularly frustrates me. [55:13] And whenever something particularly frustrates me, I'm always like, okay, what? [55:16] Yeah. [55:17] And then I got to figure out why exactly. [55:18] I remember one time back in the day, Glenn Greenwald, this is when he broke the Snowden story, and he went on Lawrence O'Donnell's show. [55:26] And Lawrence O'Donnell said to him, he was like, you know, Glenn, I've read all your reporting, honestly. [55:32] Like, I just don't care. [55:34] Like, I got nothing to hide. [55:35] Like, I don't care if the government wants to look through my phone. [55:37] I got nothing to hide. [55:38] I remember Glenn was talking about it. [55:40] And he was like, there's nothing about it that just made me so angry. [55:43] And I kind of couldn't figure out what it was. [55:45] And then it dawned on me that it was like, well, yeah, obviously, you have nothing to fear, Lawrence O'Donnell. [55:50] It's only the ones, it's only the journalists who do real journalism who have anything to worry about, you know. [55:55] And there's this dynamic that I see building up on the right, and I will. [56:00] And, again, these are not people who I have anything personally against. [56:03] But, like, Matt Walsh, Tim Pool, Tim's been very good to me. [56:07] I consider him a friend. [56:09] But they've all kind of taken this line of like, I don't care. [56:13] I don't care what's going on with Israel. [56:15] Like, why are you guys so obsessed? [56:17] You know, why are you so – and there's something so particularly enraging about it. [56:22] And I think part of it is because I really genuinely believe, like, guys like me and you are like, we'd love to not talk about this. [56:29] Right. [56:30] And that's kind of our whole argument. [56:31] Yes. [56:32] Our whole argument is that this shouldn't be a thing we even have to talk about. [56:34] But saying why are you obsessed – it's like in 2006, I'm sitting here and I go, look, I'm a non-interventionist. [56:40] But why is everyone talking about Iraq? [56:42] Why do you have to – because that's where we're intervening. [56:46] So, like, how can you sit here and be like, I'm a non-interventionist? [56:50] Like, you're taking the correct policy position from my perspective, so I at least give you credit for that. [56:55] But the thing is we are intervening. [56:58] We are currently being interventionists. [57:00] And also, like, if your whole thing is like, I want to focus on America, I don't want to go fight other wars, well, who's pulling us into wars? [57:07] Right. [57:08] It ain't Lebanon. [57:09] You know what I mean? [57:10] So, like, how do you – it just seems like cowardice to me. [57:13] Like, how do you – and it does seem like that message is resonating with, like, some people, as I just think it's profoundly unfair. [57:20] Like, the whole thing – the whole point of all of this is that it is an American destruction of Gaza. [57:26] This isn't Israel doing it. [57:27] Netanyahu goes around and brags about what Israel can do. [57:29] Israel can't do shit. [57:31] Israel can only do things because they have the full backing of the United States of America. [57:35] So, like, sorry, if you're in the world of talking about these things, you don't get to pass on this one. [57:41] Right. [57:42] Like, you got to have an opinion. [57:43] Yeah. [57:44] I saw that, too. [57:45] And it's become very popular over the past year and a half. [57:48] I see a lot of the young men, they watch Matt Walsh, they watch this other stuff, and they say, well, yeah, I just don't really care about Israel that much. [57:55] I care about America. [57:56] And I saw Matt Walsh say that on Talk Radio. [57:58] He said – and you can tell that it is like a rhetorical innovation because, let's be honest, this is an issue that people like Matt Walsh don't want to talk about because he works for Ben Shapiro. [58:10] And he knows, like Candace Owens, if you drift too far in that subject, you lose your job. [58:15] And he likes having a job. [58:16] So you get it. [58:18] Now, this is an extremely contentious issue also, and it's very topical. [58:22] It's in the news, and he knows the question's coming. [58:24] Are you pro-Israel? [58:26] Are you anti-Israel? [58:27] There's people who feel very strongly about it. [58:28] And you can tell this is like a rhetorical device. [58:32] It's a cop-out where you can say I'm not pro-Israel, but I'm not anti-Israel. [58:37] I just don't care. [58:38] And that really pissed me off because it seems like you're feigning ignorance. [58:44] You're either lying or you're really ignorant. [58:48] And the reason why is because be that as it may that you don't care about Israel, we happen to be supporting their war, and it's actually hurting us. [58:57] And there's other things too. [58:58] Obviously, it's a big subject. [59:00] There's a lot of this stuff going on. [59:02] And so people say, well, let them kill each other. [59:05] If you've been paying attention, one side's doing a lot more killing. [59:08] We're paying for it. [59:10] We are on the hook for all of it. [59:13] And so when they say, well, all that stuff, we don't care about it, whatever, be that as it may, it is going on. [59:21] And until it stops or changes, we can't stop talking about it. [59:25] It's like you said. [59:26] We don't want to be obsessed with it. [59:27] But if you talk about it, you get canceled. [59:30] We have talked about getting canceled. [59:32] We have talked about the thing in itself. [59:34] And when that changes, similar on the same vein, people like Matt Walsh say, well, we should just end all foreign aid. [59:41] It's like, okay, but they get like all of it. [59:44] And it's not ending anytime soon. [59:46] So you could sit there with your arms folded and say, well, I think we should end the foreign aid, but like it's not really a big issue. [59:52] Well, then you're in favor of the status quo. [59:56] And that's kind of the whole point. [59:57] It's like even if you're recusing yourself or you're complacent, if you're doing anything other than actively opposing, you're passively supporting the ongoing status quo. [1:00:07] And that needs to be said. [1:00:09] Right. [1:00:10] And it just seems like, as you said, there's a price tag to be paid for opposing Israel. [1:00:15] And you don't wish to pay that price. [1:00:17] I'm like, okay, I understand that. [1:00:18] But your entire worldview, even down to the non-interventionist, clearly says you have to oppose this. [1:00:23] But you don't want to pay the price. [1:00:25] And so you'll just go like, oh, you guys are opposed. [1:00:26] You guys are obsessed with this issue. [1:00:28] It's a pretty relevant issue. [1:00:30] And like, you know, and it's a disaster for the Trump base. [1:00:34] Right. [1:00:35] I mean, it's like just politically, it's a disaster for the Democrats also. [1:00:39] It's a huge part of the reason why they lost in 2024. [1:00:43] And not just because their base was so against the thing, but because it really sucked all the energy out of the room that they needed to be in opposition of Trump. [1:00:56] They needed young people to be their shadow. [1:00:57] They needed young people to be their shock troops like they were in 2016 and 2020. [1:01:01] And all those young people were protesting the genocide. [1:01:03] Right. [1:01:04] And they just weren't going to turn around and be outraged by Tony Hinchcliffe, you know, doing a routine at Madison Square Garden after that. [1:01:09] It's just impossible. [1:01:10] So it was devastating to them. [1:01:11] But they're still going to support Israel no matter what. [1:01:13] And now Donald Trump, you know, they say, oh, look, you know, they're destroying the Trump coalition. [1:01:18] And it's like, well, we're kind of not budging on this one. [1:01:23] Yeah. [1:01:24] So I don't know what to say. [1:01:25] Like, you know, this is not in it. [1:01:27] It's not just first of all, just for moral reasons. [1:01:29] Like, I'm not budging on an issue of genocide. [1:01:32] I'm not doing that. [1:01:33] But on top of that, just for sovereignty reasons, for the obvious, you know, I mean, look, at the very least, even if you don't go nearly as far as me, let alone as far as you, Benjamin Netanyahu is a neocon at the very least. [1:01:49] Right. [1:01:50] Like, at the very least, he's a guy who testified before Congress advocating. [1:01:54] We fight the war in Iraq, in Libya and advocacy. [1:01:58] We fight a regime change war in Iran. [1:02:00] If that guy, if a guy with that track record was appointed as secretary of state or as the defense secretary, every non interventionist has to be against that guy. [1:02:11] So how can you you can't be for him? [1:02:13] Like, it's just and I do think that I mean, you know, I think there's like they don't want to pay the price of being an Israel critic. [1:02:23] But I think there's a new price that's going to come from not, you know, taking a stand on this at all. [1:02:28] I totally agree. [1:02:29] I totally agree. [1:02:30] And I have kind of made that my mission. [1:02:32] You know, like people hate the groupers because the groupers swarm on the Internet and they sure do. [1:02:39] Even among my good friends, I happen to be Jewish. [1:02:43] They swarm and they make people upset and they're applying pressure. [1:02:48] And that was something that I did very intentionally in twenty two. [1:02:54] I did my pack three conference. [1:02:56] We invited Joe Kent, who was running for Congress. [1:02:58] And he was American. [1:02:59] And he was America first. [1:03:00] He's from the Intel community. [1:03:02] Antiwar. [1:03:03] I think his wife was killed in Syria and by all appearances seemed to be a good faith critic of the war machine. [1:03:10] We invited him to our conference. [1:03:12] He didn't show up. [1:03:13] And then the next day, even though he wasn't even there, he disavowed me and said, I disavow Nick Fuentes. [1:03:19] That's not populism. [1:03:21] He said particularly his views on Israel. [1:03:24] And I said, see, that's the problem. [1:03:25] Because and this is going on to this day. [1:03:28] Whether it's Kent, Trump, Biden, Charlie Kirk. [1:03:32] If you go against Israel, they make you pay a heavy price. [1:03:36] You know, APAC is coming in with the berserkers. [1:03:39] The ADL is coming in like you're going to pay. [1:03:42] So what do you do? [1:03:43] Hey, I got to get him off my back. [1:03:45] I got to disavow you. [1:03:46] I have to I have to sign the letter. [1:03:48] It's easier. [1:03:49] It's the path of least resistance. [1:03:51] I said we have to create an opposing force and push in the other direction. [1:03:55] We need people to know that if you go to in favor of Israel. [1:03:58] Or condemn the Israel critical right. [1:04:01] You're going to pay a heavy price, too. [1:04:03] You're going to get and we don't have money power, but we got people power. [1:04:06] You're going to have somebody in your district asking you about Israel at every stop. [1:04:10] You're going to have stickers put up. [1:04:12] We're going to make a website. [1:04:13] We're going to do this. [1:04:14] He lost by 2000 votes. [1:04:15] He lost by like less than one percent. [1:04:17] Biggest upset in the midterms. [1:04:19] Now, maybe that was us. [1:04:21] Maybe it wasn't. [1:04:22] But you can't know for sure. [1:04:24] Now, looking back, would he have made the same remark? [1:04:26] Maybe not. [1:04:27] Because he says it wasn't worth it. [1:04:29] And I'm a big believer in. [1:04:31] We got to get serious. [1:04:33] And this was the idea behind great for work, too. [1:04:36] This was the idea behind the. [1:04:38] What do they call them in Michigan in the Democratic primary? [1:04:40] They voted like no preference. [1:04:42] Yeah, we need to make it visible and known. [1:04:44] Like, yeah, a pack has the money. [1:04:46] We have the votes. [1:04:47] And like you said, we can't budge on that. [1:04:49] Okay. [1:04:50] So here's where I maybe I would slightly disagree with you. [1:04:52] Although I get I get your point. [1:04:54] I certainly get the point about like making. [1:04:56] There has to be a price tag also for this. [1:04:59] But to be completely fair here, you also have painted yourself into this position where you've. [1:05:08] And look, I'm not like being judgment. [1:05:10] First of all, as I said, this is something I think just as a society, we're going to have to figure out going forward. [1:05:17] Now that everybody's online all the time, people can't be ruined over what they said in their fucking 20s. [1:05:22] It's just too crazy. [1:05:23] It's too crazy. [1:05:24] Everybody says whatever. [1:05:25] Anyone interesting has said crazy shit in their fucking 20s. [1:05:28] That being said, it's not disavowing you. [1:05:31] It's not just the anti-Israel shit. [1:05:33] There's also all the Nazi shit on top of it. [1:05:35] And I don't mean like you're not. [1:05:37] I mean, okay, a lot of it might be sarcasm. [1:05:39] A lot of it is that you kind of are the best at channeling like the energy of like talking shit on an Xbox controller. [1:05:49] So like when I was a kid, we didn't have those those, you know, you didn't talk on video games, but we talk shit like that. [1:05:54] Like I know that energy and I'm fond of it. [1:05:57] But I could see where like anybody who's got to get anywhere in politics is like, listen, I have to like I can't take all that baggage. [1:06:06] So in other words, there is a difference between, say, disavowing just the anti-Israel position and disavowing like all the extra shit on top of that. [1:06:14] Does that make sense? [1:06:15] Yeah. [1:06:16] And I get what you mean. [1:06:17] But in that particular case, he went out of his way like he wasn't even associated with me. [1:06:22] You know, we have we did happen to be talking privately, but it wasn't known. [1:06:27] And my point is that it's so it's this idea that disavowing is cheap. [1:06:32] It's the path of least resistance. [1:06:34] And maybe that's might be a bad example. [1:06:36] This is a little contentious. [1:06:37] You're right. [1:06:38] But to signal allegiance to Israel, it's easier to signal my allegiance because he said in particular, I disavow Nick Fuentes and his views on Israel. [1:06:46] If he said he's too extreme, he's a Hitler lover. [1:06:49] That would have been one thing. [1:06:50] Like you said, no politician can be forced to accept baggage like that trying to win in a purple district. [1:06:55] Right. [1:06:56] But said his views on Israel. [1:06:58] An alarm bell went up and I said, no, this won't do. [1:07:02] Because and in particular, the Matt Walsh faction, I'm sure he's a good guy. [1:07:08] I don't hate him as a guy. [1:07:09] He's Catholic. [1:07:10] He's he's white. [1:07:11] He's very conservative. [1:07:13] I'm sure he's a nice guy. [1:07:14] But he represents a faction of like quietest where they're going to go with the Israel controlled right to get where they need to go. [1:07:22] And I think that that's that's part, you know, name of the show. [1:07:25] It's part of the problem. [1:07:26] That's a big part of the problem. [1:07:28] There needs to be a faction, sadly, that is dedicated to strictly explicitly America first. [1:07:34] Because like you said, I mean, what even motivated me is that that tension where Trump said, no, the new doctrines of America first, not small government conservatism. [1:07:45] It's this. [1:07:46] And I said, yeah, but there's one glaring exception to that, it seems. [1:07:50] And they're trying to tell us, well, forget about it. [1:07:53] Except that's the most important exception. [1:07:55] That's the exception that proves the rules. [1:07:57] So that's why I'm very insistent and militant on the right wing that people kind of make it known where they stand because it's it's a betrayal. [1:08:06] Well, I do as well. [1:08:07] I agree with that. [1:08:08] I mean, I think that there's got to be there's got to be some type of pressure because there's otherwise it's all going in the other direction, you know. [1:08:16] And and I agree with you and I try my best. [1:08:19] It's like even when I say with Jordan Peterson, like I think that I think Matt Walsh is as silly as it is. [1:08:26] I thought like the what is a woman thing was really important. [1:08:29] Yeah, I agree. [1:08:30] It did a lot of good for the culture. [1:08:32] And so you try to give those people credit. [1:08:34] But at the same time, yeah, you're right. [1:08:36] I mean, this is a very big issue of national sovereignty and American interests. [1:08:41] And he's you're right. [1:08:42] He's quite willing to go along with it. [1:08:44] And I do want to, you know, say that and I swear I'm not just like saying this to preface it. [1:08:48] But so there was because I do want to talk a little bit about, you know, the stuff that we because we kind of had a bit of a public feud. [1:08:54] No, no. [1:08:55] And I don't care about like feelings and stuff. [1:08:57] I want to talk about the issues. [1:08:58] But I will say this. [1:09:00] Right. [1:09:01] So when I did the Douglas Murray debate, you know, I had always, you know, I've been doing big shows for a few years now. [1:09:10] And I'm always taking the controversial issue of whatever the current thing is. [1:09:14] And it's not because I just want to be a contrarian. [1:09:16] Like, I don't know. [1:09:17] It's just always wrong. [1:09:18] And it's always like when it was the COVID lockdowns, I was against that. [1:09:21] When it was the vaccine, I was against that. [1:09:23] When it was the Ukraine war, I was against that. [1:09:24] And. [1:09:25] I would go on like Rogan show right when it's a white hot issue and be making the case against. [1:09:30] And so I get a lot of like pushback. [1:09:32] I was kind of like used to the level. [1:09:33] But then after the Douglas Murray one, I mean, I I really rose up on Israel's most wanted list. [1:09:38] And I was swarmed and in what seemed to be kind of coordinated. [1:09:42] But, you know, I don't know. [1:09:43] But just all of a sudden, like my Twitter experience changed. [1:09:46] And it's everybody with, you know, like everyone with Hebrews, you know, letters in their name is furious at me and all this. [1:09:54] And it was. [1:09:55] I had never really been like I had never quite had that before. [1:09:58] I'd never quite had like a mob after me like that. [1:10:01] And here we are. [1:10:02] I'm when this is happening. [1:10:03] It's this year. [1:10:04] I'm 42. [1:10:05] I was under no real concern. [1:10:09] You know, like at this point, it's like the censorship regime seems to have been rolled back. [1:10:13] Joe Rogan's got my back. [1:10:14] Tucker Carlson has my back. [1:10:15] I'm kind of fine. [1:10:16] Like, I never actually thought Douglas Murray was going to get me canceled, you know. [1:10:20] So, like, I'm fine. [1:10:21] I'm 42. [1:10:23] I got a great job. [1:10:24] I'm making really good money. [1:10:25] I got a hot wife. [1:10:26] I got beautiful kids. [1:10:27] And I'm Jewish. [1:10:28] I'm as inoculated against, like, falling into this as you could be. [1:10:32] I will tell you, man, like there were moments where I just found myself be like, dude, it's like by the time you're having the most disingenuous, annoying fucking like rabbi, like just and doing like the dumbest thing ever. [1:10:49] You know, they attack you. [1:10:50] And then if you defend yourself, they go, she don't protest too much. [1:10:53] You know, you're like, fuck you. [1:10:55] And it almost feels in a way like it almost seems like that's the point of their existence. [1:10:58] Yes. [1:10:59] You know, like it almost seems like like Rabbi Shmuley. [1:11:00] You're like, what fucking character from Adolf Hitler's play did you spring to life in and like become? [1:11:06] And so, OK, so if I'm going to be completely honest, it's like I see that. [1:11:11] And then I go, well, let me try to put myself in the perspective of like, like when you were taught, it really hit home with me. [1:11:16] You're talking, Patrick, but David about Ben Shapiro quote tweeting you and like how fucked up that is, dude. [1:11:22] Like, go after someone says you're so young at the time. [1:11:24] And like there is so like I understand like getting pushed to the level of like, fuck the Jews. [1:11:30] Like, I get it. [1:11:32] And I understand why people I've seen lots of people get like pushed to that. [1:11:37] And I would also say, in addition to that, one of the things that's been kind of interesting to me is that there's been one of the parts of the campaign against me since then, which Douglas Murray himself penned in a in an op ed for the New York Times. [1:11:53] Right. [1:11:54] Yeah. [1:11:55] It was a very dark post. [1:11:56] And every Zionist account on Twitter said is that I'm not really Jewish. [1:12:02] Douglas Murray said in his article, he goes, Dave Smith claims some Jewish ancestry, which is like so bizarre. [1:12:10] And then a bunch of these people are like, they're like, well, he had one Jewish grandfather, but that doesn't count because his mother wasn't Jewish. [1:12:17] So he's not a Jew, which is like the weirdest goddamn thing. [1:12:21] And OK, so I'm starting this conversation with two pretty big concessions. [1:12:25] But I mean, both of them. [1:12:26] And I will say that that did kind of open my eyes a little bit to go like, well, look, why is it that they want to take that away from me? [1:12:34] You know, like, why is it that they must first remove that or at least attempt to remove that? [1:12:39] And that is because there is a layer of added protection that you get. [1:12:43] There is. [1:12:44] It is. [1:12:45] And look, part of this is natural. [1:12:46] It is tougher to convince people that a black guy hates black people. [1:12:51] Now, it could be a black guy. [1:12:53] But it's just like a lot less likely. [1:12:54] You know, we all kind of giggle it with his name out in California, the black face of white supremacy type shit. [1:13:02] But I certainly would at least concede that there is at least a layer of protection to being a Jewish guy who criticizes Israel and that that's bullshit. [1:13:15] Like, that's bullshit. [1:13:16] It shouldn't be like that. [1:13:17] Any American. [1:13:19] I was even going to say any American taxpayer. [1:13:21] But that's stupid to any American. [1:13:23] Doesn't even matter if you're a net tax drug. [1:13:24] You have. [1:13:25] You have freedom of speech and you can say what you want to. [1:13:27] And you can have opinions about a foreign government. [1:13:29] You can have opinions about a people like you have the right to have that. [1:13:32] And so I will concede. [1:13:33] Number one, I understand where there's a tendency to, like, kind of blame Jews. [1:13:38] I also understand that there's an unfair degree of protection that you get. [1:13:45] However, I think you were also very unfair in the way you came at me and saying that the only reason I'm on these shows is because I'm a Jew or something. [1:13:54] I mean, it seemed to me. [1:13:56] And again, I said, like, I like you. [1:13:57] I've always liked you. [1:13:58] I said it seemed insane to come at me over that. [1:14:01] Is it like the your issue you said on campus was that I didn't deny the Holocaust or something that I wasn't willing to question World War Two, which I've been pretty famous for defending the biggest questioner of World War Two. [1:14:13] I think 40 percent of my interviews are just asking me about Daryl Cooper. [1:14:17] And so I guess I just wonder, like, what what was it that you were trying to? [1:14:23] Like, what was the beef? [1:14:24] What was the disagreement? [1:14:25] Well, the beef started and it was about a year ago, so I don't remember it exactly. [1:14:30] But the beef started that, of course, the thing that is happening is that everybody's now permitted to talk about Israel and the Jews. [1:14:37] And everybody also knows that. [1:14:38] And I know the world doesn't revolve around me, but I famously got, like, martyred for that in a sense. [1:14:45] And I'm not being dramatic. [1:14:46] I mean, I lost PayPal, YouTube. [1:14:49] I mean, they made it so that I could not have a career and I couldn't make money. [1:14:52] Couldn't make money. [1:14:53] Couldn't have a bank account was part of that on some level. [1:14:57] I mean, that had a lot to do with January six. [1:14:59] But I mean, being banned from PayPal is pretty big deal, you know, and the rest of them Venmo. [1:15:04] Like, I can't get reimbursed if I buy a friend dinner or something like that. [1:15:08] And got blacklisted from all the circles, CPAC, all the shows, Republican Party, whatever. [1:15:15] And and I recognize that it's not only my criticism of Israel, but the way that I do it. [1:15:20] But but of course, that's at the center of it. [1:15:22] Is that in principle, I'm against Jewish power, influence the Israel lobby, et cetera. [1:15:28] And I guess the biggest anxiety or insecurity about this, which I've talked about on my show and we talked about a little bit earlier, too, is this idea that now they're going to step in to kind of mediate this conversation. [1:15:43] And in other words, they're going to try and draw a big red line that keeps me on the other side of it. [1:15:48] And not just me. [1:15:50] I would describe it. [1:15:51] I'll give you a concession. [1:15:52] Because I think you're being fair and you're being honest and I'm being honest. [1:15:55] There's a big insecurity. [1:15:58] By insecurity, I don't mean like I'm not the prettiest girl at the ball. [1:16:01] I mean, it's security in the sense of there is this mass awakening. [1:16:05] This is a moment where we can really get these issues into the conversation. [1:16:09] And someone like myself is in the Overton window, let's say. [1:16:12] And not just that I can have a career, but my ideas can really take off. [1:16:17] And the biggest concern with this was happening. [1:16:19] And what it appeared to me to look like is that you and a few others. [1:16:23] You and a few other more elevated Israel critics were going to kind of slam the door shut behind. [1:16:29] They were going to kind of bring you in. [1:16:31] And the reason they would bring you in is because you're Jewish and that's part of it. [1:16:35] Well, who was bringing me in, you think? [1:16:36] Like you were on Joe Rogan. [1:16:38] But I was on Rogan long before October 7th. [1:16:41] But you talk about this. [1:16:42] Yeah, but I was always talking about this shit on Rogan. [1:16:45] I mean, look, I may have not been as focused on it because this became the thing to be focused on. [1:16:51] Right. [1:16:52] But all the stuff that I'm talking about and even how involved Israel was I was talking about, you know, before that. [1:16:58] Like Joe's a friend of mine. [1:16:59] Sure. [1:17:00] He's been having me on since 2016. [1:17:01] I don't think he had me on because I was Jewish. [1:17:03] No, not that he brought you on like, hey, I need to invite a Jewish person. [1:17:07] But it's like, let's be honest, you did the whole circuit. [1:17:10] You did Tucker, Candace, Piers. [1:17:12] I think you were on Tim Pool. [1:17:14] Oh, yeah. [1:17:15] These are all shows I was banned from. [1:17:17] And you got to look at it from my perspective maybe to see my state of mind. [1:17:20] Sure. [1:17:21] Because, you know, last year when Candace got kicked out of Daily Wire, her live chat was lit up every day. [1:17:28] Bring on Nick. [1:17:29] Bring on Nick. [1:17:30] And she was deliberately ignoring that and didn't want me on. [1:17:33] Now, I was banned on YouTube, but I'm also more extreme. [1:17:35] Now, the same is true of, like, Tucker. [1:17:37] All the Tim Pool people have been trying to get me on his book. [1:17:40] Yeah, I've seen it. [1:17:41] Right. [1:17:42] And so and why am I not allowed on? [1:17:44] Of course, it's my view that I was canceled for this issue. [1:17:48] And so to see you go on to the show, you know, and people say it's your fault. [1:17:51] Yeah. [1:17:52] Maybe it's jealousy. [1:17:53] Maybe there's a little resentment there, too. [1:17:55] But it was a bigger concern that as a Jewish person and also, by the way, not just that you're Jewish, but as a libertarian, you come at it from a different place. [1:18:03] You're a non-interventionist, a Ron Paul guy. [1:18:05] And I even have this disagreement with Tucker on some level, too. [1:18:08] So it's not just you. [1:18:10] My big worry is that is the conversation going to stop at we need to end all these wars and, like, the neocons are the problem? [1:18:18] Because my critique goes further. [1:18:21] And it says that it actually does happen. [1:18:22] And it actually does have to do with Jewish identity. [1:18:25] Jewish identity is so powerful and so potent. [1:18:28] Jews refuse to assimilate. [1:18:30] They're so powerful. [1:18:32] They're so tribalistic. [1:18:33] They're loyal to each other. [1:18:34] Not all of them, but a lot of them. [1:18:36] And that is actually where the Israel loyalty proceeds from. [1:18:41] It's this anxiety. [1:18:42] We need Israel. [1:18:43] Because what happens if it goes south here? [1:18:45] We need to be powerful in America to prevent a majority from rising up against us. [1:18:50] And it's kind of that identity issue. [1:18:53] And, you know, that's why I'm open to talking to you or even somebody like a Bill Ackman or a Sean McGuire or a Shapiro and say, I recognize Jews are a part of America. [1:19:04] They always have been, and they're some of the finest Americans, actually. [1:19:08] But people recognize it cannot go on this way where we have an open society, but they have this loyalty and kind of play by a different set of rules. [1:19:15] Sure. [1:19:16] And anyway. [1:19:18] So my concern is that. [1:19:19] What it looked like to me is. [1:19:20] You're being brought out of the shows and they know maybe that you'll never go that far as a Jewish person or maybe even as libertarian. [1:19:28] And a big red line was being drawn and saying, but you are still an anti-Semite. [1:19:33] You are still banned on YouTube. [1:19:35] You are banned on the shows. [1:19:36] Fuck you. [1:19:37] You're all the way over here. [1:19:38] And that's why I like you and I respect you and I think you're brilliant. [1:19:43] And I didn't mean to attack you as a guy, although maybe I crossed the line here and there. [1:19:47] But you did become a very. [1:19:49] Central and you recognize an influential figure in this big conversation. [1:19:54] And I looked at you maybe as like whether you intended to or not as a mediating force or a mitigating force in the conversation. [1:20:02] That's where I came at it from. [1:20:03] Okay. [1:20:04] So a couple of things on that. [1:20:06] There's a lot there. [1:20:07] That's very interesting. [1:20:08] So, first of all, and I just tell you some information on this. [1:20:12] Right. [1:20:13] So with with Rogan, like, we're good friends. [1:20:15] I've also been on the show a bunch that they're about half the time. [1:20:18] I've been on. [1:20:19] He asks me to come on about the other half. [1:20:21] I ask to come on the he I asked to come up the first time to talk about Israel. [1:20:27] The last time I've been on, it was all about Ukraine and all that, you know, like whatever else the story of the day was. [1:20:33] And I had had a couple pro-Israel guys on and I was just like, hey, Joe, can I come on and like break this shit down? [1:20:39] Because I like know a lot about this. [1:20:41] So I think it'll be an interesting thing. [1:20:42] And he had me. [1:20:43] And then, you know, so it's just with Rogan. [1:20:45] It's it's just not true that there was any. [1:20:47] With Tucker, me and Tucker became friends from he sent me. [1:20:53] He reached out to me, got my number from Greg Gutfeld, I believe. [1:20:57] And he reached out to me after I had been on and did a thing breaking down the war in Ukraine. [1:21:02] And he goes, dude, I think this is the best concise breakdown of the war in Ukraine ever. [1:21:07] And then we just started texting regularly. [1:21:09] And as soon he never had me on the Fox News show. [1:21:11] But as soon as he was off, he wanted to talk. [1:21:13] But again, if you go back and look at the Tucker thing, at least back then, because this was. [1:21:17] Earlier in the, you know, in the conflict, whatever you want to call it, I was the one who was bringing it up constantly. [1:21:24] Like he was dancing a little bit like I think he was still the thing. [1:21:27] Like, I don't know if I want to go this close to the sun on this one. [1:21:31] Whereas I was like, no, we are driving right to the sun. [1:21:34] And that's where we're going. [1:21:36] Candace, I mean, like, again, this is we're getting into like what's in people's heads. [1:21:40] She had already she had me on Daily Wire, which, listen, whatever beef you I will never stop being grateful to Candace. [1:21:46] Oh, and for just having me on at the Daily Wire. [1:21:48] I just know that it's so furious. [1:21:51] And I love that so much. [1:21:52] I think she did that partially for that reason. [1:21:54] But she also at least what she said was she loved my Ukraine breakdown and wanted to talk more about that. [1:21:59] And I think also part of that was I'm pretty sure this is right. [1:22:03] But I don't think I just think she was hearing a lot of this stuff for the first time from me. [1:22:07] Like she had had she had just broken with Israel. [1:22:10] And I think she had Norman Finkelstein on. [1:22:12] And but, you know, he had broken down, like, you know, the conflict with the White House. [1:22:15] Right. [1:22:16] And the Palestinians and the U.N. resolutions and stuff like that. [1:22:19] But I was the one telling her about the clean break strategy and all this. [1:22:22] And it was like new information to her, I believe. [1:22:24] And so she was into that. [1:22:25] And as far as like the other shows, you know, Tim Pool, like I just I don't actually think it's correct that I was being brought on because I was Jewish. [1:22:31] These were all relationships I had had. [1:22:33] I think I just wouldn't shut up about this issue. [1:22:35] And I don't think Tim Pool is trying to bring me on to talk about this, although not that he wouldn't. [1:22:40] But also I would just say personally, you know, which is, again, not the most important thing. [1:22:45] But I understand you saying there's a lot of people that close the door on you. [1:22:49] But I'm not that guy. [1:22:50] I'm the guy who had you on right after you got kicked off YouTube. [1:22:53] And I also think like I was anyway, that was certainly not what I was going to do. [1:22:57] Now, as far as the other stuff was a more interesting, broader conversation. [1:23:03] I guess the counter to this would be that, as we were saying before, with the racial like racial hatred and things like that, it's like the other way to look at it. [1:23:15] Is that, yes, I am criticizing Israel. [1:23:18] I am criticizing the Israeli lobby. [1:23:21] And I am criticizing the most what I see as the most relevant faction of that, which was the neoconservatives. [1:23:27] And I'm also very critical of the people supporting what Israel is doing. [1:23:30] But you are correct in the sense that I'm not saying it's the Jews, which does certainly seem to be, you know, like I mean, racialism is like catnip, man. [1:23:39] Like it's like you saw it during woke ism and you see it during this iteration. [1:23:42] I mean, people love going into that. [1:23:44] But if I'm being completely honest, like I don't. [1:23:46] I don't think that's healthy for society. [1:23:48] I don't wish to cross that line. [1:23:51] And let me say it like this, because I apologize if I'm rambling. [1:23:54] No, no. [1:23:55] I'll let you speak uninterrupted. [1:23:56] I talk a lot, too. [1:23:57] Yeah. [1:23:58] We're both we're both long winded. [1:23:59] But so. [1:24:00] All right. [1:24:01] So Alex Jones, mutual friend of ours. [1:24:02] You might be more friendly with him. [1:24:03] I did a show once. [1:24:04] He was very good to me, which I appreciated. [1:24:07] And I don't bring this up to bash Alex Jones at all. [1:24:09] I'm just making a point. [1:24:10] I keep saying that. [1:24:11] But I'm bashing people. [1:24:12] Anyway, whatever. [1:24:13] I guess I kind of am. [1:24:14] But. [1:24:15] You know, well, had a hundred thousand conspiracies. [1:24:19] I mean, so many of them didn't come true. [1:24:21] You know, he gets a lot of credit. [1:24:22] And some of them did. [1:24:23] So to his credit, like some of them did. [1:24:24] But I mean, he had theories that were like he was telling people that they were going [1:24:27] to depopulate the earth for a while. [1:24:30] He said it was all about one world government. [1:24:33] He said it was all about. [1:24:34] I mean, like even as far as him pointing at like what you would constantly point at the [1:24:41] Council on Foreign Relations and the Trilateral Commission. [1:24:43] And you were like, that's not even where the action is anymore, dude. [1:24:46] Like. [1:24:47] He totally missed the clean break and was fucking was over here chasing all this other [1:24:51] stuff that I know. [1:24:52] I like whatever. [1:24:53] You know, people get things wrong. [1:24:54] It's fine. [1:24:56] Now they use Sandy Hook as the excuse to silence him. [1:24:59] Right. [1:25:00] And it was years after the Sandy Hook thing. [1:25:01] He had had a million conspiracy. [1:25:03] But why did they use that one? [1:25:05] Why did that one resonate with people? [1:25:07] Well, the reason why they used that one and the reason why even people who like Alex Jones, [1:25:11] they have like a little bit of a disgust impulse when they hear about that is because that [1:25:16] one was unique. [1:25:17] It was unique to all his other conspiracies, because every other conspiracy, the bad guys [1:25:22] were the ATF. [1:25:23] The bad guys were the feds. [1:25:25] The bad guys were, you know, like if you blame the ATF for something and you turn out to [1:25:29] be wrong, like whatever, they deserve it anyway. [1:25:31] It doesn't really matter. [1:25:32] Right. [1:25:33] Right. [1:25:34] But in this case, the target was with people. [1:25:37] It was just regular people and regular people who had just lost their little children. [1:25:40] It's like, geez, you can't miss on that one. [1:25:43] And so I do think one of the things that concerns me with what you're doing. [1:25:46] And I guess it concerns me with the fact that I think you're winning in a lot of ways. [1:25:51] And I don't, you know, but I do worry about this disaster there is that I do think so [1:25:55] much of the energy you're harnessing does get pointed at just regular people. [1:25:59] Like just, you know, until the Jordan Peterson clip when I first realized we were going to [1:26:04] have to do this, I had kind of just been like, the reason I was like, I don't think I'll [1:26:07] do another podcast with Nick was never because I didn't like it. [1:26:10] I always liked you when we talked. [1:26:11] I always thought the conversations were really interesting, as this one is. [1:26:14] The thing was just. [1:26:15] It's just like an incentive that you almost were like, well, I don't know. [1:26:20] Everyone on this side is going to lose their goddamn shit. [1:26:22] And then I have to answer a million questions about that. [1:26:24] But fuck them. [1:26:25] So that's not enough to get me to stop doing it. [1:26:27] But then have your audience is just going to call me a fucking Jew anyway. [1:26:30] And so it's like, what's the point here? [1:26:32] And I think that, like, look, and I want to get into this more. [1:26:35] But like, yeah, yeah, there are questions of Jewish identity. [1:26:37] There are questions. [1:26:38] Obviously, there's there's a relationship there. [1:26:40] But the fact is that, say, look, the worst thing in my lifetime that is related to Jewish [1:26:44] identity. [1:26:45] That Israel's done to the United States of America. [1:26:47] I'm not sold on the 9-11 stuff. [1:26:50] You know, there's some questions there. [1:26:52] But I think it's far from as conclusive. [1:26:54] I think people are way out over their skis saying they know for a fact Israel did 9-11. [1:26:58] But that's a topic for another day. [1:27:01] But was the war in Iraq. [1:27:03] The war in Iraq is no question. [1:27:05] Or Coleman Hughes can try to argue with me about this. [1:27:07] There's just no question that the neoconservatives and the Likud party and the whole Bush administration. [1:27:13] You know, this was pushed in a direction. [1:27:15] It's not the only factor, but it is more than what made the difference. [1:27:19] Like the war does not happen without the neocons and without Netanyahu. [1:27:22] It just doesn't. [1:27:23] And yet at the same time, Jewish Americans were either the best or one of the best groups on that issue. [1:27:32] Jews opposed the war in Iraq way ahead of the general public. [1:27:36] And like right wing Christians were like the worst group on that. [1:27:40] But again, my target isn't them. [1:27:42] My target isn't the people. [1:27:44] Right. [1:27:45] It's the people who propagandize them into believing that. [1:27:48] And so if the thing is like, hey, I stopped short at like actually naming the Jews. [1:27:54] It's like, well, yeah, because I don't think that's right. [1:27:57] And I don't like yet. [1:27:59] And we can get into more of this. [1:28:00] But like, no, like Barry, the dentist has nothing to do with any of this. [1:28:04] And he you know, like and I think on some level, maybe I'm wrong. [1:28:07] But I also don't think you're really trying to gin up hatred toward that guy. [1:28:11] And so maybe that's why I stopped short of blaming the Jews. [1:28:14] I think it's sloppier and not as accurate. [1:28:16] Well, I'm glad you said that, because I think it's important just on a basic level to say that we don't agree on everything. [1:28:24] We are distinct. [1:28:25] And you and I wouldn't even say it's about further or closer. [1:28:29] It's just that we are coming at it from different places. [1:28:32] You believe it's the neocons and it's in particular the war party and Israel and how those interact in me as an identitarian. [1:28:40] I do think I do look at the world through an identity based lens that you've got. [1:28:44] Whites, blacks, Jews. [1:28:46] And they all have political interests. [1:28:48] They all identify as these groups. [1:28:50] They group up based on them. [1:28:52] And then those groups have conflicting interests. [1:28:54] That's what politics has become. [1:28:57] It's like meeting out those interests. [1:28:59] Like, is it in the interest of white people to go to war in Iraq? [1:29:02] No. [1:29:03] But for Jews, yes, because they have this connection to Israel. [1:29:06] And same about all these other things. [1:29:08] And so, you know, even getting back to our beef. [1:29:11] Yeah, we could quibble about, you know. [1:29:14] I don't think that there's some conspiracy. [1:29:17] I don't think they got together and said, let's invite Dave because, you know, he's going to like maintain censorship and Jewish control. [1:29:24] Like, I don't believe that. [1:29:26] But I do believe that you clearly take the more moderate position or even I would say the more liberal position as a libertarian. [1:29:33] You're like a lowercase L liberal in the sense that you think that it's like you said, it's not Jews in themselves or Jewish identity in itself. [1:29:43] It is particular people. [1:29:44] Particular people in power in particularly the state that are doing these violent policies. [1:29:50] Whereas me, it is maybe more radical rejection of liberalism. [1:29:54] And I think that, you know, maybe you're informed by your Jewish identity or you're just ideologically believe that it is a more moderate position. [1:30:03] And they platform that because that's the version they want. [1:30:06] That's the version that is safer for a Tim Pool or whoever. [1:30:10] That's the version that the system is maybe comfortable with. [1:30:13] That's what they might be willing to accept. [1:30:15] And they don't want to take it to the place of the Jews for the reason maybe for the good reason you described. [1:30:20] And by the way, I'll give you another concession because I want to be objective. [1:30:25] There are people that are legitimately hating Jews right now. [1:30:29] I saw in Florida they're pulling up on Jews with like water pistols and spraying them with water. [1:30:36] And I got on my show and I said, fuck that. [1:30:39] Yeah, I appreciate that. [1:30:40] Yeah, because I don't believe in that. [1:30:42] I'm not a piece of shit. [1:30:44] If I saw Ben Shapiro on the street, I saw him on the street and I said, hey, man, why did you do a speech? [1:30:48] You need to say my name. [1:30:49] I didn't run up and try and fight him. [1:30:51] Yeah, you know, and I don't believe in attacking it out like you did. [1:30:55] Yeah, right. [1:30:56] Like I attacked his kids or something. [1:30:58] Human shields. Right. [1:31:00] He picked up his kid when he walked across the street. [1:31:02] It's like, OK, well, you know, like I don't believe in picking on random people. [1:31:07] I'm not a cruel or hateful guy. [1:31:10] And you do see that. [1:31:11] And that video bothered me in particular. [1:31:13] Because if people start to think it's OK to do that, you know, the ADL isn't necessarily wrong about the idea that it is slippery slope. [1:31:22] And you pull up on somebody with a water pistol. [1:31:25] OK, what if it's a paintball gun next time? [1:31:27] Is that really OK that people are going to be harassed and like shot at with a saw airsoft gun or a paintball gun? [1:31:33] No, that's bullshit. [1:31:34] And that's denying basic dignity, basic rights. [1:31:37] That's not Christian. [1:31:38] That's not American. [1:31:40] And there there is an excess of that. [1:31:42] And I agree that it should be sort of clear. [1:31:44] It should be contained. [1:31:45] But I think there's a fine line between that and saying that it is a bigger issue than the neocons. [1:31:50] Because, you know, when it comes to these influential Jews like Larry Ellison, let's say he's not religious, but he's tight with Netanyahu. [1:31:59] Jeffrey Epstein was tight with the left in Israel. [1:32:02] And to the extent that you're right, Jews were the biggest critics of the Iraq war. [1:32:07] In many cases, yeah, there's liberal Jews, but they're liberal because that's a strategy for Jews to succeed. [1:32:14] They have these debates. [1:32:15] What is best for the Jews? [1:32:17] And like Bret Stephens at The New York Times, he mentored Barry Weiss. [1:32:20] He says, God, I hate him so much. [1:32:22] I hate. [1:32:23] Yeah. [1:32:24] And he sucks. [1:32:25] You know, he's a neocon. [1:32:26] Yeah. [1:32:27] I got in a big fight with him on Gutfeld show years ago. [1:32:28] It was such a prick. [1:32:30] Anyway, whatever. [1:32:31] Oh, God. [1:32:32] The worst. [1:32:33] Yeah. [1:32:34] But he so he says in 16 or 17, he goes, he's Trump is bad for the Jews because he is opposing the liberal values that have been so good to us as Jews. [1:32:45] And it's like that sort of encapsulates when like the ADL, for example, gets criticized. [1:32:50] They say, well, the ADL is making Jews look bad or they're going after people like Shapiro and protecting people like Ilhan Omar. [1:32:58] In other words, they're attacking Jewish Zionists, but they're not hard enough on the progressive left. [1:33:02] And what I see there is still a distilled Jewish self-interest, which is OK, because we're all people and we're all advocating for for the most for ourselves. [1:33:13] But in America. [1:33:14] We just need to do a better job of managing that. [1:33:16] And I don't I think that the Jewish community is out of control. [1:33:19] Yeah. [1:33:20] It's basically it. [1:33:21] Well, I would say so in kind of like in a similar sense to if because me and you both, we've both been accused of getting the call over the last few weeks, which turns out was just us calling each other and being like, I don't think there's any evidence. [1:33:34] But like so. [1:33:35] OK, so when you when you come out on your show and you go, look, guys, I'm not seeing any evidence that Israel was behind the assassination of Charlie Kirk. [1:33:43] Right. [1:33:44] And then people go, oh, it looks like Nick got the call. [1:33:47] You're like, OK, but like the much easier answer is that he just doesn't see any evidence. [1:33:52] Right. Right. [1:33:53] And like people, it's like you're jumping to a conclusion. [1:33:55] And I will say, I think you might be guilty of doing a little bit of that, too, if you when you go like, well, look, they want the conversation controlled. [1:34:03] It's like or an easier answer might just be that, like, they've seen your hits and they go, yeah, well, I don't want to bring a guy who's saying Hitler has aura on the ship. [1:34:13] Like, I'm open to. [1:34:14] I do think what's horrible, what's happening to the Palestinians. [1:34:17] But like, no, I don't think we need to go like that. [1:34:19] So I think there's like probably, you know, look, dude, there's you make your bed. [1:34:24] You were nobody I don't think that I know is denying that you were like horrendously mistreated when you were very young. [1:34:31] But also since then, like there's an energy that you harness when you when you do that shit and you know what you're doing with it, you know. [1:34:37] And that's not to say you're being disingenuous. [1:34:39] I don't mean that at all. [1:34:40] I just mean, like, you understand kind of like harnessing this radical energy of like. [1:34:44] Now, dude, I'm staking out this position all the way over here. [1:34:47] But it's a double edged sword. [1:34:49] And that also sometimes can turn a lot of people off. [1:34:51] Although, look, you're moving the needle in a in a in a clear way. [1:34:56] And so that is becoming more and more acceptable. [1:34:58] I guess my point is that I don't know actually that it's possible to do that without having the excesses of, you know, the water gun thing or perhaps much worse. [1:35:07] I mean, look, as we both figured out, man, I hate saying this out loud because it's against our interest. [1:35:11] But a lot of people are kind of dumb, man. [1:35:13] And a lot of people can't really follow the nuance of all of that stuff. [1:35:17] But but to the broader like kind of Jewish conversation. [1:35:21] I mean, look, I'm not I'm not saying it's like strictly the neocons or I wouldn't even say that. [1:35:26] Like, obviously, the neocons, the majority of whom were Jewish. [1:35:31] It's not just like I'm not claiming like, oh, they just happen to be Jewish. [1:35:34] Like their Jewish identity obviously plays a central role in why, you know, they feel the way they do. [1:35:42] Mm hmm. [1:35:43] And there's no question that Jews, I think. [1:35:47] And this is something I've spent a lot of time speaking out against because I just think it's really there's a sickness in Jewish culture that I think is unhealthy. [1:35:55] I think it's part of it is fundamentally built into the religion that like it's it's about past suffering, you know, is like a big part of it. [1:36:03] But the Holocaust looms so large in particularly like my parents generation and up, I think not as much with the younger generation. [1:36:11] But it looms so large. [1:36:12] And there is this kind of like feeling of like, look, the Holocaust happened and then we created our own state so that it never happens again. [1:36:19] And anything short of that means another Holocaust happening. [1:36:21] You know, and it's just it's not right. [1:36:23] Like, it just doesn't make any sense. [1:36:25] There's no reason to. [1:36:26] And I've been saying this for years. [1:36:27] I'm like, look, like, I'm I'm a Jewish American. [1:36:30] I've never had one obstacle put in my way because of my Jewishness. [1:36:33] Like, never once. [1:36:34] You know, I've had people say literally your fans saying shit on Twitter is the greatest struggle of my life for being. [1:36:41] You know, I've had greater struggles. [1:36:42] But not because I was Jewish. [1:36:43] And I think that I think what's appropriate when you even if the story is like, oh, my God, you know, your grandparents were so horribly mistreated in Europe. [1:36:52] And then you came to America. [1:36:54] And now Jews are two percent of the population. [1:36:56] They're overwhelmingly successful. [1:36:58] I think the attitude should be like, well, we're really grateful to America. [1:37:01] We really love this country and we should have nothing but loyalty to it. [1:37:04] You know, so like I'm against the fact there is something like that in Jewish culture. [1:37:10] But then again, I think. [1:37:11] It's only reinforced by people, you know, like like when they see people who they perceive as being like neo-Nazis to be like, see, that's proof. [1:37:20] That's proof that, in fact, there is this huge threat. [1:37:23] And I think in some way it seems to me like it's almost in some ways you and the Zionists have accepted a fundamental framework that I think a lot of the rest of us are trying to, like, push back on, which is that like to oppose Israel isn't to oppose Jewish people. [1:37:39] And that's kind of stupid. [1:37:40] This is an actual government. [1:37:41] Now, also, I should add, like, all these things are complicated and intertwined. [1:37:45] The there is no question that part of the reason why Israel has become so dominant, you know, like, say, the Mossad has become so dominant is because there was a diaspora. [1:37:58] It was an advantage that almost no other intelligence agency had that you had pockets of people who you could reach out and touch, who could at least somewhat reliably, if they were called to do something for Israel, would take that as like an advantage. [1:38:10] So, you know, I would take that as like, OK, I'm, you know, in some way preventing another Holocaust. [1:38:13] Like, that was a huge advantage for them. [1:38:15] And so, like, again, I'm not saying like there's not there's there's more complex and interesting questions, I guess. [1:38:20] You know, again, I'm not trying to, like, big brother you or anything. [1:38:24] Um, no. [1:38:25] Yeah. [1:38:26] I guess it's just like even that message that you were just sending of, like, hey, we're not trying to target, you know, people. [1:38:31] I think, like, if you if you are to win the day on this and we want to avoid something really bad happening that, you know, I think none of us want to say. [1:38:40] I think stressing that is probably a good idea. [1:38:41] You're right. [1:38:42] important and also um you know it's just like you see it i mean i know because you talk about it [1:38:48] like the low iq slop shit where it's just kind of like dude this is this is um okay i know forever [1:38:56] you weren't allowed to touch that button and so you're touching the button because you weren't [1:38:59] allowed to but it's stupid points like you're allowed to touch it now yeah and it's not that [1:39:02] impressive it's kind of like a silly argument although i will admit it's quite funny well yeah [1:39:07] i mean the edge lording even for me has lost its appeal it just seems passe because 10 years ago [1:39:13] you couldn't say that stuff and that's what made it provocative yeah and now you can't say it so [1:39:17] and also it's been done for 10 years so internet edge lord oh you've never met someone like me [1:39:22] before it's like we've all seen that um but i would say that here here's how i would characterize [1:39:29] the issue because i hear that a lot that the zionists the anti-semites are sort of in the [1:39:33] self-reinforcing loop and i would say that how i would characterize the problem is that you know [1:39:40] in some sense the jews are rational the neocons are rational [1:39:44] because what they're saying is there's kind of two answers to the jewish question from the jews [1:39:49] which is we need to return to the land because only when we have another jewish kingdom will we [1:39:55] have sovereignty and be able to protect ourselves there's another answer to the jewish question [1:40:01] which is if we push liberal universalism everyone will tolerate us if we push religious tolerance [1:40:07] and racial tolerance right um then people see us as themselves or the greatest among the nations [1:40:12] these are two strategies [1:40:14] and they're both rational because after the by the way there was anti-semitism nazi germany [1:40:21] maybe that's that's that's i got the call to say that but it's true you know [1:40:25] is that a controversial thing might be i don't know not even the holocaust [1:40:31] they weren't so fond of them that's for sure yeah but it's like in germany but also in russia but [1:40:37] also in america there are quotas in the universities emerging from that time it is like we say [1:40:45] the world's made up of races they have these interests it's in the jewish interest to [1:40:50] to do these things so soros takes up the cause of the open society foundation [1:40:55] and open society is based on this philosophical premise i think from bertrand russell which says [1:41:00] we have tolerance and openness and and egalitarianism and the like hood party or [1:41:06] you know the haganah the security element in israel they work to get power and they say that [1:41:11] to make the world safe for the jews we need israel to make israel safe we need [1:41:16] control over everything west of the river to do that we need to destroy all our enemies in the [1:41:20] region like there is a rational chain of law when they say israel's right to exist they mean we [1:41:25] can't exist if we're staring down the barrel of 10 countries that hate us there there's a logic [1:41:30] there and i would say that that in some sense that's a legitimate way to think it's legitimate [1:41:36] interest but i distinguish myself as a as a white person as someone from christendom as an american [1:41:43] and i'm looking to disentangle the jewish interest from the american interest [1:41:47] and say that you know when you say it's it's bad to say hitler had aura i disagree and i'm not i'm [1:41:53] not saying necessarily it's bad i'm saying that you understand that like that is going to be [1:41:59] something that might make a lot of people go oh yeah i don't want to deal with that guy but here's [1:42:03] where i would push back in a sense is you know as a white person like why why is it that the [1:42:10] holocaust so toxic it's because you know jews sort of made it that way like we don't look at [1:42:16] the whole of gomorrah the same way we don't look at china and you know [1:42:18] well that's well no i think that's a totally legitimate argument it's something i've been [1:42:22] saying for years too i think that the idea that uh jews have a monopoly on world war ii [1:42:27] is is like insane and or that anybody should you know like prioritize past jewish suffering over [1:42:36] other sufferings i'd be like yeah it's a horrible thing happened you know but um so wait can i just [1:42:41] yeah sure go ahead so you know when i say hitler had aura to i'm trying to basically set a new [1:42:48] paradigm where you know it's like as americans and and moreover as white people it's like that [1:42:53] doesn't have the same impact on us emotionally it not necessarily we're only feel like that way [1:42:58] because of movies because of museums because of propagandizing and you know so when i look at like [1:43:05] larry fink bill ackman david and larry ellison i look at them as part of a corporate entity like [1:43:11] they're they're not individuals that happen to be jewish they are the jews they're organized they [1:43:15] work together and as an american i basically want to be a part of a corporate entity and i want to [1:43:19] take power from them and give it back to americans and that necessarily is going to make them weaker [1:43:26] and more vulnerable as a community and you know so when they say that's anti-semitic it's like of [1:43:32] course everything that's taking power from them to give it to us is going to inherently like bolster [1:43:38] the narrative that they're becoming more vulnerable but it's a necessary part of getting [1:43:42] power yeah i kind of get what you say like i used to say it like um i used to say that uh as long as [1:43:48] you like [1:43:49] if you translate the words right that like hillary clinton is telling the truth you know like in a [1:43:54] sense like like when you go like um like they'd be like hezbollah is a threat and the truth is that [1:43:59] hezbollah is a threat to israel's ability to occupy southern lebanon right now they leave that part [1:44:04] out of it you know or if they say like iran is a threat it is it's a threat to the american empire [1:44:09] like it's a threat to yes this is it so in that sense you know like when hillary clinton had the [1:44:14] famous one where she said uh i think it was that vladimir putin has put his troops right up on [1:44:19] yeah yeah yeah this just shows you like the mentality but like he's not lying in a way right [1:44:24] so i would say this is how i look at it i think that in the same sense that uh right-wing [1:44:30] christians in america were convinced that it was in their interest to go overthrow saddam hussein [1:44:35] because you know he was going to give the nukes he didn't have off to the terrorists who weren't [1:44:39] friends with him or whatever the line exactly was um i think in i think a very similar dynamics [1:44:44] going on with jews and israelis i think that they're really when if you look at the position [1:44:50] israel was in say three years and a day