'Cat' Matlala Trial — State witness faces defence cross-examination: Neria Hlakotsa updates

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: For more on this now, let's speak to SABCU's reporter Nerya Lhakota, who is joining us. Nerya, good evening to you once again and thank you so much for your time. So, this particular, the photographs that they're talking about, what are they showing exactly? Why was there so much contention? [00:00:13] Speaker 2: Good evening and thank you for having me, Bungiwe. Well, essentially these photographs have nothing. The defense here just went apparently to the estate itself this morning. He was telling the court that he wanted just to shoot how the estate itself looks from the outside and the inside. And with this, he wanted to make sure that Bethwell Taylor, who is the state's witness, can just identify where exactly he was. But the state was saying, if you want to show any photographs, you can use the ones that we have already in disclosure, the ones we gave you. And ultimately, the judge then agreed with the state that these photographs cannot be used simply, but rather, let's use Google Maps as the court. And everybody agreed in the court, all the counsel agreed. And we used the Google Maps just to show the outline of the Gulf estate so that it can paint a picture to the court in terms of where are we talking about and how the place actually looks like. [00:01:11] Speaker 1: So there's, you know, something else that's interesting that has come out when you listen to Bethwell Taylor, right? He speaks about the fact that the, you know, the vehicle that was carrying the gunman was trailing someone. Who was it following? [00:01:26] Speaker 2: Look, he says this BMW followed the red Ferrari and the Gulf, the white Gulf. So we were still establishing, in fact, today, who were the occupants of that car. And the defense went in straight to tell us that the occupants were Joe Sibagnoni. Remember yesterday, the state didn't touch in terms of who was in there, who the gunmen were. But the defense went straight into everything, telling us that the occupants were Joe Sibagnoni and others. And we're still not sure which car, though, was Joe Sibagnoni in. And why the defense found it so interesting to go deep there, because now they're poking holes into Bethwell Taylor's statements to the police. They're saying that he's contradicting himself all the time. The first statement that he gives to police, he says he shot those 15 bullets and he shot the bullets in self-defense. But the second statement, then he doesn't say that he was shooting in self-defense. He just says he shot. So now this is what the defense in this matter wants to now bring the issue to say, you said you shot 15 bullets. It could have been you that shot Joe Sibagnoni and not these gunmen that we are all talking about. So this is where it is. And Taylor was very firm to say, no, I have no reason to shoot Sibagnoni. But the defense is sticking to you don't know. It was a shootout. You shot 15 bullets. So that's why it was important for them to bring it. And maybe also just to add that the defense also mentioning the Mr. Hruvier, mentioning that you are a hostile witness ever since yesterday. And I'll put it to you that you are hostile because you're trying to protect Sibagnoni because you work for him. And ultimately, then Taylor had to stand up to say, no, I don't work for Sibagnoni. He doesn't pay me. I work for him through another company, but he doesn't give me my salary. So the defense is now pushing to that route. You can see that, you know, you can't trust Kele. He has he has something to benefit in this instance. Sibagnoni is his boss, this and the other. And he could be the one who's the gunman. So that's where we are, really. And that's how court was adjourned today. So he even, you know, abandoned to the issue of the pictures and everything and just focused on that. I think what's important also here, if you remember yesterday, Kele said that gunman said ifanja, yes, which basically means die dog. Then Hruvier comes today and says, my client says, first, he was not at the scene. Second, he doesn't speak Zulu. So it could not have been him. What do you say then, Kele? And Kele ultimately then watered it down somehow to say, look, it's South Africa. People speak different languages. But that's where we are. And that's how Hruvier basically cross-examined Kele today. [00:04:19] Speaker 1: It's quite an interesting one because, I mean, yesterday, Nerea, we saw quite a confident Kele, right, who was telling the story. He was very, very vocal. And today you touched on it a little bit about him being hostile because today he was a little bit defensive. You could see that the demeanors are changing. Perhaps we get into that about him as a witness. But also at the same time, there's an interesting point about trees that was also being mentioned. And that in and of itself is raising all sorts of questions. [00:04:50] Speaker 2: Yes, it is raising questions because Mr. Hruvier here is trying to see where Kele was hiding himself. Because yesterday, Kele said he was hiding at one of the pot plants as the gunman came. But Hruvier wants to show these trees are long. How could you first have seen the cars coming? So he's painting a picture of a Kele that is lying. That's what he's trying to show to the court. And it's very slow. But in due time, you see where he's going, of course. And I think that is the difficult. And that's why, actually, he wanted to put those pictures. But now the state is saying, you're using pictures from four years later. That place cannot look the same at all, you know. So it's those little arguments there. But you see where he's going already, his line. But speaking also of Beth Welkele and his demeanor in court, yesterday he was confident. I mean, there's one bite that we even used where he was saying, I pushed them with bullets. I pushed them. But today, that sentence or that very line that he used, it came to bite him, really, because that's when, you know, the defense is saying, as you were pushing them with bullets, you could have pushed your own boss or you could have pushed Sibanyun, you know. And, you know, the defense is not happy with Kele, I will tell you. The counsel for Matlala also stood up to say, quote, you need to do something with this witness. We cannot deal with him simply like this. He's not answering questions. He's not forthcoming. So it's a challenge right now. But as you can see, he even said to the court that, I hate courts. I hate courts. I don't know why I'm the one who's on trial. I didn't do this. So now I'm being punished because I protected a client. So that's where he is now. [00:06:35] Speaker 1: Quite an interesting turn of events. Neriya, thank you as always. And you can, of course, follow Neriya to bring you the blow-by-blow accounts of what is taking place in that particular trial. Really sterling work she's been doing as ABC News reporter. Neriya Tlakoza there on the trial there with Kat Matlala and four others. [00:07:05] Speaker ?: Neriya Tlakoza there on the trial there on the trial there on the trial there on the trial.