Can senators open box of VP Sara tax records? BIR says even impeachment trial not an exception — ANC

[0:00] so when is the correct time to open the box commissioner no because there are two requirements [0:08] inquiry and aid and executive session both should be present and assuming that the committee will [0:19] decide not to open may i just ask when is the correct time to open the box commissioner well [0:32] um if the the committee says that this is not in aid of legislation then section 20a will not apply [0:44] and therefore what we will do madam chair is to withdraw our submission and i'm chair this has [0:52] been submitted already i'd rather keep this what do you mean withdraw your submission you will take [0:59] this back the box yes madam chair because when we submitted the documents to be specific commissioner [1:08] in the event that the committee votes in favor of probable cause assuming only for the purpose of [1:15] discussion that the impeachment complaint is transmitted to the senate will they be in the [1:24] correct position to open this box i'm referring to the senators uh well if we go by the specific [1:35] statutory exceptions madam chair an impeachment proceeding or an impeachment trial is not one [1:41] can you speak louder come if if i go by the specific statutory exceptions madam chair it's not part of [1:49] your exception it doesn't make mention at all of impeachment proceeding precisely madam chair so that is [1:59] not what i am saying is that an impeachment proceeding or an impeachment trial is not one of the exception so [2:06] even the senators cannot open this box if we go by the provisions of the law madam chair then there is no [2:18] basis as well for the disclosure again madam chair madam chair madam chair madam chair this is such an [2:25] absurd situation the honorable ruric padiernos and then the honorable tino and then the honorable ds [2:32] suarez suarez thank you madam chair um i want to ask some clarific clarificatory questions is that about the box yes [2:42] yes yes because yung na mention po kasi madam chair ni bir commissioner i'm this representation is in the [2:52] position that impeachment proceedings is sui generis it's a class of its own different from yung na mention po na in aid of [3:03] legislation so i just wanted to to again if i if i heard it correctly uh from the commissioner madam chair [3:15] if the section that was mentioned a while ago does does not apply does it mean that that you [3:24] uh you have to you have to get the box meaning you're not bound because wala nga pong basis [3:32] so that's the only way that you will submit medyo mahira po tong sitwasyon natin kasi po uh [3:42] we don't have a specific law to to say that that um pwede po talaga niyang ibigayan except yun lang po yung [3:50] basis niya so i just wanted to get a clarification from the commissioner madam chair [3:58] had it as mentioned by uh representative adyong a while ago had it been the intention that the [4:06] impeachment proceeding be an exception to section 270 of the national internal revenue code then the law [4:16] would have said so as it did in the bank secrecy law where it is explicitly provided that an impeachment [4:23] proceeding proceeding is an exception to the confidentiality of bank deposits madam chair [4:33] madam chair madam chair madam chair [4:42] madam chair [4:55] the committee should address this by voting on the matter after the honorable tino makes this manifest [5:04] let's hear first the position of the justice members madam chair madam chair honorable tino and then [5:12] honorable delima so just to be clear madam chair mukhang ang nangyari ngayon originally the position of the [5:19] birr was correct me if i'm wrong ah kaya po nila daw kaya daw po nila sinabmit sa committee yung mga [5:28] dokumento dahil sa kanilang pagtingin ah covered nung exception sa batas no yung dahil in interpreted in [5:41] the broadly yung phrase na in aid of the broadly yung phrase na in aid of legislation kaya nila binigayan [5:49] pero ang requirement lang nila or ang parang condition lang nila ay dapat in executive session [5:56] tama po ba commissioner that is correct madam chair oh so yun po ang original na position nila no na [6:05] it falls within the exception uh we interpret the phrase uh in aid of legislation broadly as [6:14] congress exercising all its functions okay so therefore pwede basta in executive session however [6:21] mukhang nakumbinse si commissioner at ang bir ni congressman adyong kaya kaya ngayon mukhang nagbago [6:30] na po ang position nyo at kaya nga po sabi i withdraw na nila tama po ba hindi po ah ah kasi po kung [6:38] sinasabi po ng committee mismo na hindi ito in aid of legislation eh hindi po namin po pwedeng i invoke [6:44] ang section 28 kaya kinakailangang i withdraw namin o po so lumalabas mas nakumbinse ng committee as a whole [6:52] batay sa mga naririnig no na well hindi nga ito in in aid of legislation therefore therefore [7:00] hindi no pero again this is under consideration by the committee at ako po actually sumasangayahan [7:09] nga po ako sa naging original na position ng bir na broadly you know ah yun ang ibig sabihin [7:20] nung ah nang provision na yan nung exception na yun otherwise madam chair yung sa tanong nyo kailan [7:28] pwedeng buksan yan kung kung magiging stricto tayo sa in aid of legislation then as i said earlier [7:35] i may file a a house resolution in aid of legislation requesting the same documents at lalabas pwede na [7:46] diba for as long as it is in executive session no and also so in other words ordinary yung resolution [7:53] lang pwede na nating buksan yan kung ganon samantala dun sa tanong nyo pa further kung ah [8:00] umabot sa trial sa senado ito eh kahit ang senate sitting as an impeachment court hindi [8:08] nila pwedeng buksan yan kung ganon diba dahil ah makited ang magiging interpretasyon dun sa in aid of [8:15] legislation so parang ganon po ang ang sitwasyon ngayon na eh kailangan mag-antay tayo sa pag-file ng resolution in aid of [8:26] legislation ah at maaring masilip in executive session ng mga nilalaman yan or we can go with the [8:36] interpretation that um in aid of legislation is in a very broad and generic ah meaning parang ganon po madam chair [8:47] madam chair now let's hear from the honorable delima thank you madam chair this seems to be this [8:55] matter seems to be a gray area the position of the only exception to the rule of confidentiality of those [9:04] records is kapag ang congress ang house ay nag-request in aid of legislation but subject to that [9:14] limitation that should be an executive session actually renders our role in an impeachment case [9:22] in an impeachment proceedings inferior to that role as an as a body with legislative functions [9:33] because ours when sitting here in an impeachment proceedings is a special constitutional duty so [9:40] it is superior to that as when we are acting merely [10:11] as a legislative body as a legislative body yun po ang aking position but of course the issue of [10:17] cautiousness is another matter kaya nga po tinatawag kong gray matter po ito pero insult po sa house [10:27] through this committee in an impeachment proceedings na sasabihin na ito dahil hindi ito in aid of [10:35] legislation even if hindi nakalagay sa batas tungkol lang yun po sa pag-request but sabi nga po ni congressman [10:46] ridon ay sabi na po ito hindi po ito ordinary request from the house of representatives so yun po ang aking [10:56] position madam chair we commend all the meaningful and vital opinions of the justice members we've been [11:04] here for eight and a half hours already just to remind all of you no and i think we are very much [11:12] divided with regards to the question of whether we will be opening this or not but definitely please [11:19] join me my fellow members we will not be returning this to bir the only issue is whether or not we will [11:29] open the same can we defer the resolution of this issue with the indulgence of my fellow members with the [11:39] indulgence of commissioner mendoza hindi po namin ito ibabalik batid po namin kami confronted [11:49] ng question kung maaari ba namin itong buksan o hindi pero mas mamarapatin po namin alagaan [11:56] ang kahong ito kahit po ito'y selyado habang amin pong pinag-aaralan ang tamang posisyon ng justice [12:04] committee kung bubuksan o hindi having said so i move that we lay on the table the opening of the contents of [12:14] the said box until we find um the true legal position and avoid any constitutional constraints [12:22] moving forward so there is a motion to lay on the table the opening of the box the same has been [12:29] seconded honorable rufus this is a very difficult question of law it involves the philosophy of law [12:36] there are two kinds of interpretation when there are two conflicting laws whether you are in the [12:43] positive school that is justice calia of a supreme court of the united states or you belong to the [12:50] spirit of the law uh spirit of the law school now mr chairman uh in the positive school of law that is [13:00] precisely what the national internal revenue code says in the positivist approach of law and lawyers [13:07] will know this because you all took up theory of the law it is you confine yourself in the four corners [13:15] of the positive law of the positive law that is positivism correct commissioner [13:22] because you're a lawyer and so you took a philosophy where what law school did you go to [13:28] uh i'm a product of sunbed the university oh very good law school so therefore in the positive school [13:36] this is an issue in whether the nirc in the four corners of the nirc the national internal revenue [13:44] code it is clear there that it can only be done it's in the uh in the uh uh in in aid of legislation [13:53] and in an executive session so that is the positive law in other words if you follow that trend of law there [14:00] can be no opening of this because we can never convert ourselves into an executive session or an [14:07] aid of legislation because you have another function right now which is which is impeachment now what do [14:14] you say about that the positive uh school of thought because these are the final points [14:20] representative chairman what does the uh the lawyer from uh sanbeda say because we now have this because [14:28] i will then ask you the other law or rules that will govern this is the rules of impeachment which has [14:38] the effect of law which provides that there is absolute power the power to issue [14:45] the subpoena dosis tecum and the spirit of the law is accountability so we go to the spirit of the [14:54] law you have to use therefore our rules that says the committee uh the justice committee acting as a [15:02] constituent as acting as a uh impeachment court can subpoena you to submit so which one now would you [15:10] agree agree the positivist school of law or the spirit of the law so in other words your narc or for our [15:19] justice members the our spirit of the law that this is different this is sui generis we there we have [15:27] given so much power because this accountability of very high officials so which one would you now say [15:33] that governs because you are a lawyer is it the positive school or the spirit of the law school [15:42] rules of impeachment narc which will now prevail would you like to answer commissioner mendoza [15:52] madam chair for now i am taking the conservative view we will abide by what the law expressly says [16:00] yeah a very good answer because precisely justice escalia is the positivist in all history uh escalia who [16:10] died of the supreme court only would if there's any issue you go only to the four corners of the law [16:17] you let go to the spirit of what is said there however you also have a situation that we have the power [16:25] this is a sui generis and it says it can subpoena anyone and any document and this is sui generis [16:35] uh what do you think about that so once again you're saying what do you say honorable rodriguez let [16:42] us be conservative for now i don't know what i mean it's very good discussion because now many lawyers [16:48] are watching us the people are watching us we have to therefore uh be able to have a decision on this [16:55] because as i have said there are no there are now two contending schools of thought the philosophy of the [17:02] law i was under professor espinoza in up and we discussed this so positivist and the spirit of the law [17:12] under our rules what do you think should be your answer actually we we have complied with the subpoena [17:23] madam chair we have submitted the documents subject only to the conditions provided in the law we have no [17:32] intention to to to to not comply with the directive of the committee as in fact we did by submitting the [17:40] documents our only request is that we examine the documents within the bounds provided by the national [17:47] internal revenue code thank you madam chair and that would mean madam chair that the commissioner is [17:54] saying that since yes he has stated this earlier that because it is not an aid of legislation then [18:02] that will not apply correct in other words you're saying that even executive [18:08] uh hearing doesn't apply because this is not an a uh in aid of legislation yeah it's not a hearing [18:18] as i have said madam chair when we submitted the documents our premise is that this proceeding [18:24] is also in aid of legislation because whatever may be discussed here could be the basis of a [18:31] future amendment of a law like for example as i said the bank secrecy law or probably the tax code itself [18:38] but if the committee itself says that this is not in aid of legislation then we will have to abide by that [18:46] very good lawyer from sanbeda that is why we should i would support now that we lay on the table [18:54] so that all of us will study now let's rule on the motion because let us all study now there is a motion [19:02] to lay on the table madam chair before the same has been second then before that madam chair just one [19:08] question for the honorable commissioner um please proceed dun po sanatanggap nyong uh sabina [19:15] nakalagay hubad doon na ang pupuntahan yung hearing is in aid of legislation o alam nyo po na ito [19:23] ay impeachment this is an impeachment proceedings yes alam po namin na ito ay impeachment and yet you [19:30] still produce yes o po sapagkat because you are compelled to do that sapagkat to produce sapagkat [19:37] meron pong direktiba ang committee na isabit namin ang mga dokumento at sa paniniwala [19:42] namin nung isinabit namin ang mga dokumentong yun ay kung anuman ang mapagpapag-uusapan dito [19:49] ay pupwedeng maging basis ng future legislation kung kaya't ang tingin po namin nung isinabit [19:54] namin ang mga dokumento bagamat ang pangunahing layunin ng committee ito ngayon sa proceedings [19:59] na ito ay i-determine kung may probable cause against the vice president to go to an impeachment [20:05] trial tinitinan po ramin rin po namin na ang proceedings po na ito ay in aid of legislation [20:11] pero yung paniniwala nyo in aid of legislation [20:15] upo yun [20:17] pero hindi malinaw po na this is not in aid of legislation because this is an impeachment proceedings [20:24] di ho ba and you produce the document because you were ordered by in via subpina [20:31] produce the documents because we were served as subpina and we believe that the submission is one of the [20:39] exceptions provided by law [20:41] kasi yung paniniwala nyo in aid of legislation [20:44] yes po madam chair pero maling paniniwala po yun because this is clearly not in aid of legislation [20:51] impeachment po ito di ho ba impeachment proceedings [20:55] in any case madam chair i know that there is this motion to lay on the table but let me just state [21:01] for the record i take the stronger legal position that congress in its impeachment capacity can [21:09] compel production of itrs of the impeach official the constitutionality account the constitutional [21:16] accountability imperative and the doctrine of constitutional supremacy over ordinary statutes [21:24] support this view the nirc's confidentiality provisions do not immunize a public official from [21:32] disclosure in a constitutionally mandated accountability proceedings this is constitutionally [21:41] mandated accountability proceedings special po ito sui generis po ito so hindi ho pwedeng [21:49] ma-immunize ang isang impeachment official dahil lamang merong ganyang confidentiality provision in a [21:56] statute constitution prevails over an ordinary statute that's my position thank you madam chair the committee [22:06] notes all your important positions and opinions i just wish to remind all the members that let us [22:14] maintain the caution that we have started since day one of our proceeding we owe that to the sovereign [22:21] filipino people to make sure that we move forward in this impeachment proceeding and we will not be [22:30] a subject matter of another petition before the supreme court with that let us rule on the motion there is a [22:38] motion to lay on the table the opening of the box the same has been seconded is there any objection [22:46] hearing are you objecting honorable dilemma yes because of that's a position that i laid down [22:53] the latest position that i laid an objection has been registered to the motion to lay on the table [23:03] the opening of the box let us now divide the house those who are in favor of the motion please raise your [23:11] right hand thank you you may put down your hands those who are not in favor of the motion please raise your [23:43] right hand thank you come sec please submit the result of vote those who abstain please raise your right hand [24:06] no one abstains with 21 votes in the affirmative four votes in the negative [24:17] and zero abstention the motion to lay on the table the issue of opening the box is hereby granted [24:26] madam chair madam chair the honorable adjong and then the honorable sendanya yeah madam chair um i hope [24:36] we are in understanding in agreement that we will not send back this uh box to the to bir [24:42] are i don't need to make a motion on that commissioner i hope you defer to the committee on its position [24:51] not to return the box we will keep the box although the same is sealed yes we defer to the committee thank [24:59] you madam madam on a related point madam chair honorable sendanya perhaps for to uphold the integrity of the [25:07] decision of the committee to lay on the table the decision uh to open the box may we request the uh [25:14] good commissioner of the bar with the officers of the bir to kindly sign the tape part of the box to [25:20] ensure the integrity of its uh seal thank you madam chair the commissioner of the bir is so requested to [25:31] please affix your signature on the seal of this box so as to make sure that no one will open this [25:42] madam chair may we provide commissioner mendoza with a pentel pen or a sign pen madam chair madam chair [26:02] uh clarificatory question honorable tinio thank you madam chair madam chair i just want uh madam chair [26:21] honorable tinio yes i just want uh to clarify the meaning of the vote that was just made that is merely to [26:35] differ to differ okay so by laying on the table we will resolve so yung laying of the table ibig sabihin [26:43] po is just to differ to differ kaya po ah hindi natin isinosoli ah kung hindi pag-aaralan pa kung [26:52] pwedeng buksan o hindi ng committee so yun lang po ang gusto natin uh ilinaw at malinaw na i think you [26:59] should sign on all sides maari pa itong buksan thank you the committee notes the manifestation of the honorable [27:06] of the honorable tinio