Australia Loves Solar, So Why The Diesel Addiction? Deep Dive Australia 02: Chris Bowen

[00:00:00] Chris Bowen: One thing I think we are getting very much right and that we can share our learnings with the world is in our view the road to decarbonisation goes through households. So we are really I think scoring runs to use a cricketing term when it comes to households. So as you know we lead the world in rooftop solar. So 35% of Australian residences have solar panels on their roof and that's 4.3 million houses. We have more solar power than coal power, more rooftop solar power than coal power in Australia. [00:00:45] Michael Liebreich: Hello I'm Michael Liebreich and this is Cleaning Up. We're filming in Canberra and that is the land of the Ngunnawal people so I'd like to pay respect to their elders past, present and future and acknowledge their link to the land. I'm filming today with the Minister of Energy and Climate, Chris Bowen in his office here in Parliament House. Chris, welcome to Cleaning Up. [00:01:13] Chris Bowen: Great to be with you Michael, long time listener and delighted to be joining. [00:01:17] Michael Liebreich: I think you know the rules. We start with you in your own words. I've given you a very short introduction as you heard and just to give the audience just a short version of what you do but also who you are. [00:01:31] Chris Bowen: Yeah, so I am Australia's Minister for Climate Change and Energy, have been now for four years which actually makes me one of the longest serving climate change ministers around the world as it happens. When I think about who was climate change minister when I came in there's not many consistent faces and in Australia we combine climate and energy one portfolio which is maybe something we can come back to later. I'm a member of parliament so we're a Westminster democracy so every minister must be an elected MP. I'm a representative of my constituency in western Sydney which is where I grew up and where I still live where my wife and I have raised our kids. I'm an economist by training and economics degree and you know have been in parliament now for 22 years and as I said [00:02:16] Michael Liebreich: been climate change minister for four of them. Very good and I've provocatively said who you are because I wanted a little bit of the background. I think it's always helpful for the audience to know a little [00:02:27] Chris Bowen: bit about what you studied so economics. Economics was my undergraduate degree. I've got an international relations degree as well and a languages degree but economics was my was my first level. Politics, [00:02:37] Michael Liebreich: international relations and languages and you mentioned as we were just chatting before [00:02:42] Chris Bowen: Indonesian. Yeah, I got my Indonesian degree later in life because I was concerned that Indonesia is this country which is one of our nearest neighbours. I can't think of two countries in the world that are so close and so different in language, in history, in cultural background, in religion and you know Australians and others tend to swan into Indonesia and expect everyone to speak English which you know plenty of the elites do but I think it's pretty arrogant to not at least try. So I'm not particularly - my Indonesian is not as good as I'd like it to be but because I don't get opportunities to talk it very often so I get a little bit rusty but it comes back pretty quickly when I do give it a good go. [00:03:23] Michael Liebreich: So I've been to Indonesia and Australians swanning in and expecting everybody to speak English that's what I saw in the bars in Bali and so on and I couldn't get out of there fast enough. No offence to your fellow countrymen but that was not what I was you know looking to. It's not so much about the [00:03:41] Chris Bowen: tourism in Bali it's more the interaction with government and business. They're a you know fast [00:03:46] Michael Liebreich: growing wonderful economy yeah. So I think where we need to start is we are in the third month of the crisis in the energy markets that's resulted from events in the Gulf and I think it'd be interesting to hear how you you know what have you done what has Australia done you know and I know that you're very exposed to aviation fuel particularly never mind everybody else has got a problem with just oil prices in general you've got some aviation fuel diesel some very specifics which I spoke about actually yesterday at the national press club yeah where they kind of invited me to speak and that sharpened my [00:04:23] Chris Bowen: focus on Australia's response to that. Yeah so of course I mean we've all been impacted in one way or another but Australia's has been particularly exposed because uh we get we we only have two refineries and we have a small amount of oil drilling um obviously we're very big in coal and gas but we're very small in oil um but we get the our refined fuel predominantly comes from southeast Asia and while 20 percent of the world's oil goes through the straits of hall moors 70 percent of southeast Asia's oil goes through the straits of hall moors so we're part of the asian supply chain and you know Vivian the foreign minister of singapore called this particular energy crisis an asian crisis and he's right and we're for that purpose we're part of Asia so we were particularly exposed um but uh what we've done is work very closely with industry um and we've underwritten um extra fuel imports into australia and we've uh avoided all rationing and we now have more fuel in australia than we did on february 28th which we're pretty pleased with and um you know there are plenty of people predicting we'd be rationing after easter we've managed to avoid it there's still risks out there as you know as well as anyone there's still plenty of risks and the global strategic reserves are being run down but at this point i think we're as well placed as anyone and better than many and having gotten through this [00:05:41] Michael Liebreich: okay now you you were doing fine in your answer until gotten through this because you know we're [00:05:49] Chris Bowen: watching the news absolutely and no no there was supposed to be a deal through this this far there's still plenty of risks out there i mean we want it sorted out as the world everyone sensible in the world does um when it sorted out urgently because you know the longer this goes on as you know um even if it was resolved tomorrow there's going to be aftershock for months [00:06:09] Michael Liebreich: and context for the audience we should give which is that uh because this will come out in a few weeks so by the time anybody's watching this who knows you know it could be back in hot conflict or it could be peace and love and uh opening the trump anybody who tells you the trump plaza in in tehran anybody [00:06:23] Chris Bowen: who knows how this is going to play out i think i'm not being honest with you but i have gone on the [00:06:27] Michael Liebreich: record of saying i think we could be in for months if not years of tension and uh cat and mouse games and you know i go back to um you look at history i'm an engineer but i think history is is vitally important yeah if you look at the foundation of the iranian state yeah it was the um it was the hostage crisis in 440 days which terminated in um the release of at the time it was about 10 billion dollars 30 billion 30 billion plus was released uh by the us at the end of that they got the hostages back and it finished president carter's presidency i think the iranians will be well aware of that precedent and i think we should be in for the longer haul well i might look very stupid by the time this comes out [00:07:11] Chris Bowen: no you could you might you you you may well not i mean i don't think the iranian uh uh the iranian regime has been around since 1979 but the iranian civilization has been around for thousands of years and they've had to have their wits about them in a complicated geopolitical environment in the [00:07:24] Michael Liebreich: middle east so they are they are players yes inventors of the modern game of chess that should also be remembered that's right that's right but um but i was expecting perhaps to you know come into your office and see um almost a chillian uh maps on the wall with the locations of tankers bringing diesel to australia i do have those they're on the wall when i have them you do have that i'm glad to hear it because one of the the questions if it does prolong then um you say we've got more diesel but there's jet fuel there's you know there's a real problem well essentially what's going to happen is some percentage of fuel will simply you know the the market will just have to reduce demand to fit supply and that means somebody is going to see demand destruction recession real problems in their economy who's it going to be if it's not if it's you you should tell us and if it's not you who's it going [00:08:15] Chris Bowen: to be well all i can say is in in terms of our situation we actually have more of each fuel type [00:08:21] Michael Liebreich: including jet fuel yeah so australian summer holidays will be okay right we are we are looking [00:08:26] Chris Bowen: good we've got more of each fuel type diesel jet fuel and petrol than we had on the 28th of february so that's good yeah each supply chain is different for us you know we predominantly we don't get much diesel petrol from china but we do get a lot of jet fuel did that result from the there was a deal with singapore partly was partly partly so we had sort of a multi-pronged approach because we went off to our key trading partners and said you know this is a high pressure environment for all of us let's stick together um pm's visited singapore malaysia brunei for example and that's that's been an important part of it so they've said yes your key allies key friends key trading partners um yes there's pressure but you know you're very important to us we'll keep the supply up to you you know as as best anyone possibly can so there's been that we've been diversifying as well so for example we currently we usually get about two percent of our crude oil from argentina for the next month it's about 25 um so um yeah that's diversifying to countries that don't rely on the straits of hormones and you know there's been different examples that we've got petrol from newlands at one point algeria's been supplying so just just spreading the hedging the the risk across the world um which has been useful um and then there's the uh as i said that we've been underwriting extra cargos into australia to provide a buffer um so all three fuel types were better off um there's different risks in different uh fuel types diesel is probably one that we've been very focused on because australia is a diesel-based economy i believe the term is addicted to diesel well you could say that uh i i i'll tell you focused on her if you were going to say i couldn't possibly comment i was going [00:10:00] Michael Liebreich: to be i was going to say but you're the energy minute we'll come back to i think we need to come back to australia's diesel addiction to be honest it's a domestic uh um you know economic structure [00:10:09] Chris Bowen: problem let's come back to that yeah yeah yeah and we you know we're a resource-based economy and you know the mines work on diesel but we we actually um you know we say we make about 20 percent of our fuel in australia we refine to himself feel that's true but we actually refine more petrol than diesel but we use more diesel than petrol so um we've had a little bit of a just just the way the refineries [00:10:29] Michael Liebreich: are designed in the way that the market's played out driven past the geelong refinery a few a few days [00:10:34] Chris Bowen: it wasn't on fire at the time i hope um it was flowering it wasn't on no no we had a fire which is why i didn't go to the petersburg uh climate conference because just as i was about to leave the refinery caught on fire right in the middle of an oil crisis so it wasn't it wasn't a refinery to [00:10:48] Michael Liebreich: catch on fire in the last six months not because of a drone yeah right right yes is that right okay so you were saying about you so you've got you've brought in the extra supplies but i asked in a sense it was a two-part well it was a two-part question yeah which is um so you've got your supplies but then who's not getting them because um so what you're another way of glossing what you've just said is that australia has bought up all the supplies that it needs argentina that oil was going somewhere else those people are now not got the 25 oil that you're there are some countries that [00:11:19] Chris Bowen: are embarking on you know uh in effect rationing you know uh around um our region you know um sort of compulsory public holidays public service public public schools closing all that sort of stuff is happening i know the philippines has done some of that and some other countries have done some of that um you know we're particularly focused on the pacific making sure they're okay so you know after you i'm off to see the prime minister of the solomon islands who's uh in town obviously our pacific family is very important to us and there many of them are diesel economies as well ironically which is something we're working on fixing you know many of them actually much more than us their their power [00:11:53] Michael Liebreich: stations run on diesel because they're still exactly so they're still using diesel for electric electricity [00:11:57] Chris Bowen: which we don't do don't do a long time yeah that's right that's right um so uh you know that's important to us that they maintain fuel security because it is the case that countries that can afford like australia um to go out and get fuel you know are better placed than those um that are that [00:12:14] Michael Liebreich: are not in that position are you financially supporting them because these are not uh these are not all you know some of them are doing fine some of them are not that wealthy well we financially [00:12:23] Chris Bowen: support many of them in many different ways you know we are because if there's regional instability [00:12:27] Michael Liebreich: in those countries you're going to feel the effects but they're also your you you have very close [00:12:31] Chris Bowen: cultural links and absolutely a very important part of our national approach and our government's [00:12:36] Michael Liebreich: approach so are you have you extended them extra credit to uh not not particularly on fuel at this [00:12:42] Chris Bowen: point but we are broadly obviously we support a lot of different initiatives and different governments [00:12:47] Michael Liebreich: are very okay so pacific islands you're helping but then there are there are real issues around as you said the philippines uh indonesia your your closest uh where you where you've learned the language that's right um are you having difficult conversations with them about you buying up all the [00:13:01] Chris Bowen: no i've been i have chatted to the indonesian minister a couple of times and they they're pretty [00:13:06] Michael Liebreich: comfortable with where they how they're going yeah okay um and so on those maps um does it get worse i mean is this now a steady is this a new steady state where everybody's tightened the belt a bit there's been about 10 reduction in oil use but somehow we're muscling through or or or or does it does it go off does it go off a cliff minister that's why i don't think it goes off a cliff it might [00:13:28] Chris Bowen: get tighter but it doesn't go off a cliff um you know the the idea that you know all the ships will arrive in australia one day will stop arriving the next is not one that that that's the question i guess that's the that's the the graphic version of the question yeah no i don't think that's how it plays out at all and you know we've war gamed all sorts of options we've had now several months to be dealing with this um and you know there's been all sorts of predictions made um and you know being critical of people but you know they haven't planned out that way because it's a complex environment but you know we normally get 81 ships arrive in australia a month with fuel on average in may we had 92. i mean i'll take that i'll take that as a in this environment i'll take that as a very good outcome but you know well as as strategic reserves are run down the longer this goes on yes [00:14:10] Michael Liebreich: of course it continues to get tight but i don't see a cliff as an energy wonk um i'm already i'm just thinking of a what does this do to sup metrics of supply and demand because of course if every country says you know gosh this is really unstable we need to increase our stores you actually could you know if you if you in if you have one month of stock and you then go to you want to go to three months that's two months of extra demand if everybody does the same you've actually got not just the normal demand uh unmet but you've then got this extra couple of months that you're trying to put into stocks so uh it's a fascinating kind of energy economic question right well in our case you know we've [00:14:50] Chris Bowen: got 48 days worth of petrol for example um on you know in in the country um and 36 days worth of diesel so we you know we're not talking about doubling and tripling our stocks but we have you know if things [00:15:02] Michael Liebreich: get tighter we have been building a buffer and i know you have a very good relationship with uh fati birol yes um because he was down here actually just after he released uh the 400 million barrel release i was in paris a few days before he came down to australia i suspect you spent some time with him we did yes [00:15:20] Chris Bowen: absolutely and uh you know we participated in the release of the reserve um at his request which was the right thing to do um and yeah we i'm a regular interactor with fatty yes i was astonished [00:15:33] Michael Liebreich: that he came on the show and took the time because it was literally between telephone calls to you your japanese counterpart uh chris wright over in the us and so on he was no i i i i listened to most of your [00:15:45] Chris Bowen: episodes i listened to that one and i i was similarly thought well that's good he's proceeded with that he's a [00:15:49] Michael Liebreich: wonderful man in fact he's very generous with his time and he called it the mother of all energy crises on my show he's called it more measured things and other uh but he has said that this is the worst uh energy crisis and yet if you look back to 2022 and maybe this is a european perspective because that was european gas and european oil supplies that were hit but that price spike hit australia as well and it was much bigger than the price spike uh that we're seeing today in gas i mean [00:16:19] Chris Bowen: it was a different crisis it was a different crisis yeah so i mean in fact he's called this crisis equal to all the previous crisis combined right so all the 70s crisis plus ukraine this is worse yeah and um you know that's a pretty it's a pretty telling uh description and it hasn't been yet right that i [00:16:35] Michael Liebreich: juxtapose what you've you said you know essentially what you said was it's tight you know everything's tight and difficult but it's all under control and we've already established australians will still be able to fly on their holidays over the summer um that doesn't sound like the worst energy crisis [00:16:50] Chris Bowen: since um the 1970s well i think what faddy's talking about is the impact on you know on supply chains you know the fact that um so so many hundreds of millions of barrels are just sitting in the straits of hormones obviously and that in australia that's impacting not so much on supply but on price um you know we still have the we cut our excise our petrol tax to you know just take the edge off the price rise but that's still in place for example so um you know it could be that we see that crisis play out not like ukraine which was gas prices and in and in coal prices um but uh in oil prices and [00:17:25] Michael Liebreich: petrol prices yeah so now let's switch gear to so i don't want to say business as usual but the not the crisis although i think the crisis is having impact and i've written about this um about i'm expecting to see clearly there'll be a lot of moves as countries like the moves you've just described for australia everybody's sort of um you know trying to get trying to sort out the immediate problem and get some you know get their oil get their their gas uh lng their fertilizer their helium that that's the short term i'm very interested in the longer term impacts which i believe will be an acceleration of of a lot of countries will be saying we've got to we've got to get off this stuff we've got to get off this stuff that's what i think is going to happen um and then i'm interested in first of if you agree and then we can go through how that might impact the initiatives that you're pursuing here in [00:18:18] Chris Bowen: australia i i do agree with you i i i think you know i've got this cop role this year and so i'm talking to international colleagues a lot which is acronym there you go you caught me i think most of our listeners to be fair would know that cop is conference of the parties but i do accept the [00:18:31] Michael Liebreich: principle that you don't like acronyms so it's conference of the parties under the ipcc you used an the intergovernmental panel on climate change uh part of the under the uh the un f triple c which is the u the united nations framework convention on climate change it's the climate summit the big climate summit and that one um let's actually let's fill that in before coming back just because um so that the the audience understands that that's happening in turkia yes but it is joint correct so [00:19:03] Chris Bowen: explain how that all works well it came out of necessity um because to care in australia both bid and it's it's not how you would design a system to choose a cop host but basically the system is you have to get support from the constituency group to care in australia obviously in western europe where also will we be in our constituency groups um australia had overwhelming support of that constituency group to host cop 31 but to care was very strong in their bid and didn't want to yield which we respected in the end it was either do a deal or it goes to bond with no effective president it came [00:19:37] Michael Liebreich: down to the scene like um i can't remember what the film is where they threatened to veto you and you [00:19:43] Chris Bowen: had to threaten to veto them and then it would have gone to bond it would have gone to bond and i didn't think that was a good outcome for the world right with multi-ilateralism under attack and everything so we did a deal and within that necessity you know we didn't do it out of choice right but within that necessity i think we've come up with quite a good innovative model in that turkey will be the host the cop president and run the action agenda and i will chair the negotiations and we need to we will [00:20:07] Michael Liebreich: need to come back to what the action agenda actually so the action agenda is all the stuff around the [00:20:12] Chris Bowen: negotiations all the other initiatives yeah that's right the the pledges and the investment deals and [00:20:17] Michael Liebreich: we're working closely with took care they're so they are leading on that they're leading on that we're [00:20:21] Chris Bowen: leading on the negotiations and the actual outcomes of the cop so you get the document with the square [00:20:26] Michael Liebreich: brackets and the late nights and the and the yeah the the the clock that stops at one minute to midnight so that you can still spend the entire last weekend correct and you get the gavel do you get [00:20:36] Chris Bowen: the gavel we jointly hold the gavel we'll jointly we'll do that together okay um but you know we will basically be steering all the negotiations if there is a gavel at the end of all of this we're just [00:20:48] Michael Liebreich: assuming that there will be some sort of gavel doing something okay as i said you know this sort [00:20:52] Chris Bowen: of rose out of necessity but i do think we've come up with a model which might work in the longer term like i think it'll work this year australian turkey we're actually working obviously we had hard fought negotiations in belm you know for three days but we've come together very very well um working as a good team and i think it's potentially an innovative model because we're two different countries different approaches but you know we'll be saying to the world well australia and turkey have sorted out our issues please come to uh to care in the same spirit and also in the negotiations you know frankly there are countries that will care what i think and you know bend and and be flexible because i asked until the other countries that aren't too concerned about what australia thinks but do care what to care things so we can tag team those discussions i think i also [00:21:35] Michael Liebreich: think i do think it's interesting because um it kind of breaks a bit of a pattern where the cop goes over to baku and everybody says oh it's all going to be about oil and whatever because baku obviously a big oil producing uh uh location and then it goes to brazil and it's all going to be about rainforest that's right and it almost becomes sort of special interest thing and it attracts only though people interested in that whereas if you've got the diversity of countries you break that pattern and you go back to perhaps clicking up a level that's my my hope in a sense or my well i share [00:22:09] Chris Bowen: your hope and and and i think that may well be what we're able to achieve there's all these things [00:22:13] Michael Liebreich: you're doing here which we need to go into but you're not responsible for them because those could feed into the action agenda but the action agenda is turkey's responsibility oh yeah but i mean [00:22:23] Chris Bowen: the action agenda i mean i think what we're doing here will feed in the negotiations and you know we should get to it because there's a lot to talk about but also we are you know turkey is running the action agenda but also we had plans the action agenda if we were going to host in adelaide which we feed into turkey air and they're taking you know they're working with us so just as i you know will consult murat karuma about the negotiations he consults me about the action agenda so you know i think i wouldn't get too hung up on on that particular element you know we are feeding that in and you know we're always active participants in the action agenda even when we're not so you haven't just [00:22:55] Michael Liebreich: had a role you haven't just had a you know so six cardboard boxes full of action agenda plans that you had and just uh flown them over in the diplomatic bag no i mean we've we've spoken to them and said [00:23:06] Chris Bowen: this is what we were thinking of you have to so you sort of have done that but you're doing this what you will and and you know they've to their credit they saw a lot of that looks interesting and [00:23:13] Michael Liebreich: they're working with us cleaning up is proud to be supported by its leadership circle the members are actis alcazar energy arab copenhagen infrastructure partners signum capital davidson kempner ecopragma capital edp euroelectric the gelardini foundation kkr mitsubishi heavy industries national grid octopus energy quadrature climate foundation schneider electric sdcl and wartzila for more information on the leadership circle please visit cleaningup.live to keep up with all that's going on in the cleaning up universe make sure you subscribe to our newsletter written and edited by my long time new energy finance and bloomberg nef colleague angus mccrone it comes out every second monday angus provides the latest on the episodes we're recording the events we're hosting stories we're watching and what brianie worthington and i are up to to sign up for the cleaning up newsletter visit cleaningup.live so let's come down to the the what are the initiatives what are you doing um what are you doing in your in the rest of your time yeah when you're not worrying about either the crisis or preparations for cop uh and there's a lot going on and i'm lucky because i spent two weeks in australia moving around uh and i've talked to an awful lot of people so i know some of what is going on um where do you where would you start what is the most um significant um initiative that you're working on so i think michael what australia you [00:24:57] Chris Bowen: know we know poster child we've made um as a country you know we've made plenty of mistakes but one thing i think we are getting very much right and that we can share our learnings with the world is in our view uh the road to decarbonization goes through households um so we are really i think scoring runs to use a cricketing term um when it comes to households so as you know we lead the world in rooftop solar so um 35 of australian residences have solar panels on their roof and that's 4.3 million houses we have more solar power than coal power more rooftop solar power than coal power in australia that's played an important role but what we're now doing is building on that and we have a cheaper home battery policy which provides a rebate to australian households because when we came to office you know one in three houses had solar panels one in 60 had a battery so there's a lot of energy being wasted in the middle of the day um energy prices are mainly set at night when coal and gas kicks in which is much more expensive we're running coal stage coal-fired power stations all day not using the power during the day you know wasting emissions so we needed to because they're inflexible yeah but they're getting more flexible but they're still pretty inflexible so we needed to really up that batteries approach so we on the first of july last year our policy came in for cheaper home batteries so 30 rebate in effect um for everyone who takes a cheaper home battery um as of today we're at 424 000 cheaper home batteries that have been installed in australia four hundred and twenty four twenty four thousand okay since one july so not yet a year just trying to do some percentages in my head yeah so we had roughly a bit over a hundred thousand home batteries before we started and we've added four hundred thousand okay so because somebody else used a figure of three [00:26:46] Michael Liebreich: hundred and twenty four so so that would be the additional over the hundred no no so we've added [00:26:51] Chris Bowen: a hundred we've added four hundred and twenty four thousand so that maybe they're using just out of date [00:26:56] Michael Liebreich: we're putting about two thousand number of households about 11 million something like that um yeah i guess that's right yeah yeah yeah so you're you you're now at about five or six percent of homes yeah batteries [00:27:08] Chris Bowen: yeah so our target is to do two million houses by 2030 and that's more than 12 gigawatt hours worth of [00:27:13] Michael Liebreich: storage we've added can i ask a technical question yeah you said the rebate 30 rebate does that go to the installer does that go to the homeowner because i'm fascinated by the fact that your solar rooms now it's half the cost to get solar here on your roof there's a number of it is in [00:27:30] Chris Bowen: the u.s there's a number of reasons for that it's not just the rebate yes yes are you unlocking the [00:27:34] Michael Liebreich: same whatever magic that is yes share with the world in effect in effect are you doing the same with [00:27:38] Chris Bowen: batteries yes in effect we are it's the same scheme we call it the small scale renewable energy scheme sres we call it that's an acronym but i said the full title you're allowed to use the acronym as long as you explain what it is yes it's all scary in effect so what so to your question does it go to the installer or the household it goes to the household via the installer so you right you ring up you know your local energy your local solar installer or your energy you can use the big energy company or you can use a local company it's up to you it's all very easy that's one of the reasons why i think we do it better in the united states because we make it easy for people that's why i asked [00:28:11] Michael Liebreich: the question because i think making it easy user interface really really matters there's no planning [00:28:16] Chris Bowen: approval required you you know i said to the californian energy commissioner there'd be a revolt there'd be marches in the street if we required council approval to put solar panels on your roof it's your roof you do what you like with it so the only constraint is supply chain you know you might have to wait a month before they can actually get them come out and do you but you can ring up today you can get a quote and you can accept it that quote that you get from the installer for both solar panels and battery will include in it the rebate so they'll give you a quote might say you know 12 000 minus government rebate you know etc etc so and then you get a final price and then the money goes to the installer but the installer has already discounted the the battery when they're [00:28:55] Michael Liebreich: quoting you so when i next go over and talk about this um with a guest in the us i'm going to ask how it works there because i think they have to pay the full amount and then they have to do that they've got their federal taxes and their state taxes when they get money back too complicated with all your respect to your americans too complicated so making it easy matters absolutely it's a one it's just a [00:29:15] Chris Bowen: seamless process you ring your installer you can get three quotes one so another technical sorry i didn't mean to interrupt not at all no you're uh well i was just going to say we make it easy you get you can get one quote you can get three quotes but the rebates are all factored in so as i said we put 12 bit over 12 gigawatt hours in the last year which is globally significant when it comes to storage [00:29:32] Michael Liebreich: i just want to get a final question on that so the the technical bit of of how this works if you produce lots of solar uh obviously if you have a battery you're going to use more of it yourself yes but if you're exporting solar you get a feeding tariff feeding tariff some modest modest feeding tariff does the distribution the dnsp the distribution network service provider in other words the distribution grid do they have to accept your electricity whether they want it or not and pay you the feed-in tariff whether they and need that electricity and and what happens if they just say i'm sorry that we just don't have the capacity we just can't take any more from these these [00:30:11] Chris Bowen: rooftops by and large they do have to accept it we do have curtailment for sort of extreme circumstances residential cuts yeah we do have the most we have that through the state system [00:30:20] Michael Liebreich: we don't like doing it and homeowners must not like you doing it no and it's and it's only done really [00:30:25] Chris Bowen: in extremis if it becomes a safety issue in in the grid so it can be done but it's done rarely by and large they take it um you know so that's where grid scale batteries and community batteries are useful because they can help absorb that we're building a lot of those as well we do have feed-in tariffs a lot of australians sort of complain that they're too low because they used to be much when solar was starting they were high now there's so much solar power in the middle of the day that they're quite low um so what one thing we've done to manage that is introduce comes in on first july solar share we call it um that's three hours of free power in the middle of the day you might have heard that on your travels that's that's coming in so that will help absorb a lot of that so that's really an incentive to people with modern smart technologies you can schedule your dishwasher to run at 12 o'clock when power's free that's free for everybody whether you've got solar or not yes if you take up the offer so we require the energy companies to provide it to you as an offer up to you whether you take it up or not okay so because [00:31:19] Michael Liebreich: that's interesting because the 65 of your homes don't have solar yeah you could flip your good statistic into what sounds like a bad statistic that's sure i'm good i'm good at doing that um but but how do they so they benefit from they can benefit from the three hours of free yeah they can from the first of [00:31:39] Chris Bowen: july and i mean i would also argue they benefit from generally a reduction in prices that solar power brings and particularly with batteries moving a lot more of that load to the evening um and saving that excess power we have in the middle of the day i mean the the recent ember report highlighted us in chile as moving more power from the middle of the day to the night than any other countries in the world which [00:32:00] Michael Liebreich: i was very pleased to see uh reflected so i did an episode um with mark england osgrid the the grid in um in the sydney area and up to the i think up to the hunter valley yeah he's got some got some some raw on agriculture and then down into sydney he didn't complain as much as i when i listen to you in most countries most dnsb's distribution uh network system provider the grid the distribution grids they would go crazy about this stuff and push back and try and torpedo it because you're taking demand away from them by giving people lots of solar you're taking demand away from them you mean generally on the solar and then by giving people batteries there's even less demand and they get this very peaky demand from households when everything else fails they get huge amounts of demand and and they're expected to buy this stuff they don't need and they would you'd get enormous pushback from the distribution grids in most countries i visit particularly i get americans ask me how do your [00:32:59] Chris Bowen: energy companies and distribute well you know how then how they let you do this to them and don't you get massive complaints and i say no they get with the program so basically as i said you can if you're a sydney sider for example you can ring up your local um you know sydney solar company penris solar whatever it is um or you can ring your big energy provider origin energy and say can you come around and give me a quote for solar panels so they get involved they do on origin energy for example does a battery package um so they can if you're an origin energy come customer you can choose to go with your energy company [00:33:32] Michael Liebreich: and they get a piece of the action i remember when they launched that that was when grant king was running it years and years ago 2014 2015 something like that so to their credit i guess they worked [00:33:42] Chris Bowen: out this is where the country's going we can either try and resist it or we can be involved in it and [00:33:46] Michael Liebreich: they're involved in it see that's fascinating because in a sense i'm looking for kind of australian technologies to share with the world and obviously i don't mean in this case hard technologies i mean how did you get your rooftops done how are you getting batteries done um and how are you how are you getting your distribution operate grid operators not to just torpedo things well i mean i guess [00:34:09] Chris Bowen: there's two answers there one they don't have a choice uh and two about to their credit you know they've got they got with the program and they're participating so you know and everyone's in the action you get into uh i don't know if you've you've you've driven past bunnings they're a big hardware warehouse are everywhere you know the big australian sort of way of life is on saturday you get out of bunnings and buy all your hardware needs it's it's a massive thing but you can now get solar [00:34:31] Michael Liebreich: panels and a battery at bunnings don't don't you put your your tools when you bought them at bunnings you put them on a rack behind you and you then you do your television interviews i don't do that some [00:34:40] Chris Bowen: some politicians do that they're on the tools i that's not unused tools from bunnings correct that's not something i do but i have sooner done that's right okay so what we've got so those are some [00:34:51] Michael Liebreich: of the areas um business models not technology but business models where australia's world leading i do [00:34:58] Chris Bowen: think that's the story we have to tell that batteries and and households it is it is but [00:35:03] Michael Liebreich: um then you've got some other areas where your laggards yep um and evs yep uh going into the crisis 10 ev share um which is low i mean globally it's one in four cars it's 25 now since the crisis that's probably gone up to 30 and you've gone up to i think 16 in april or something like the latest [00:35:24] Chris Bowen: figures over um laser is a little bit higher than that but i don't just but i don't dispute your [00:35:29] Michael Liebreich: fundamental argument you're not you're not in the peloton you're one of those one of those riders who's [00:35:35] Chris Bowen: not midfield you're actually you're actually not the worst but you're not doing well well um i agree with all that um and we have worked hard at it when we came to office in 2022 ev sales with one percent um so then one percent in 2022 this stuff is going so fast yes so i you know relatively pleased that we're caught up to you know that sort of 10 and then now higher i think now closer to 20 we don't yet have uh maize figures in but we uh tesla and polestar just reported you know last night and this morning they've doubled so i think that is happening obviously the main thing is the the petrol crisis driving that but not exclusively i think a couple of other things just quickly happening yeah two it's related to the battery story if you've got solar panels and a battery now you think well maybe our next choice should be an ev because we have this battery that can power the ev so we don't have to pay for energy at night we can use it off our battery so our ev in effect becomes very cheap or free and then we have had a couple policy we were the one of the reasons why we were so far behind michael is that we and russia were the only two countries in the world without emission standards vehicle emission standards governments of various persuasions had tried it had failed we did it so we brought in emission standards in 2023 um very controversial vehicle emission standards mileage standards or emission standards emission standards so you know in a fleet average you've got to you've got to meet these emission standards um and that's so yeah we've now got a much greater choice of evs and we also have a ev tax discount through our uh novated lease system which can be you know quite beneficial for people and people have been taking it up at a rapid rate so all those things combined have seen the ev take up substantially increase we just had our annual emissions figures out for 2025 transport down 0.6 percent which is not much but i'll take it because it's the first substantive reduction ever outside of covid which is largely driven by evs and do you have a target for [00:37:28] Michael Liebreich: how many evs are you on one of your churchillian maps that is not in this room but it's somewhere [00:37:35] Chris Bowen: probably on screen do you have a target for ev no no we don't um because we see it as a matter of choice for australians we want to give them give australian motorists and consumers the choice of buying more evs and they are um so we don't have an artificial sort of government target what we do have is policies to facilitate ev take up you see it's choice and we don't have targets but you do have a target [00:37:57] Michael Liebreich: you have a 2050 yes uh net zero and then you've got renewable energy targets across you've got all sorts of we don't have a particular ev target you don't have a particular ev target okay um i'm trying to think of my cycling analogy um you know you you're not you're not because the you know the breakaway group obviously is norway which is now at something like 95 or 97 percent that's crazy stuff but um but there's also there is a large group now and china is at um something like it's over 50 percent it must be approaching 60 percent including trucks now um and 25 of trucks i have an interest in trucks because i'm building a truck charging business in uh in europe called pragma charge uh building hubs it's [00:38:35] Chris Bowen: the charging hubs yeah and um we've got a new we've got new energy uh new transport new energy [00:38:40] Michael Liebreich: here doing that yeah you've got a few a few people and i've met them i think they're a little bit behind us we're actually going to open a big charging hub the biggest in europe i think um very shortly in in valencia um so trucks i think are going to be next out of the gate in a lot of places um and and i suppose are you confident that australia maybe won't be up with norway but at least ought to be in that sort of let's call it the 40 to 60 percent group fairly soon yeah i am and is your is your is your is your grid ready for that and your well yeah infrastructure because we need to talk about um big batteries grid wind which is very troubled at the moment i'm going to say yeah and [00:39:21] Chris Bowen: so on yeah well just quickly yeah i i am confident i think these sale i think australians have crossed the rubicon in many senses yes there's a fuel crisis on now but i think um australians intuitively know these crises are going to get more common not less common potentially worse not better and so having an ev is a very sensible economic choice so i think you know we we know there's tipping points and critical mass and i think we're approaching that um that now we are we're not just going through a temporary blip in ev sales it'll just get bigger and better and again these vehicle efficiency standards were brought in just means there's so much there were no vehicles available no evs when we came to office under forty thousand dollars now there's 10 australian dollars [00:40:03] Michael Liebreich: australian dollars so that's 25 000 us or something like that now there's 10 models available for you know [00:40:07] Chris Bowen: first you know for younger people buying their first car etc there's 10 models um which is a good thing so i i think we're locking in that progress but let's talk about the grid and wind and vehicle to [00:40:17] Michael Liebreich: grid charging and everything let me get i'll give you a short lap of honor on on big batteries okay but we've then got to talk about the difficult we've got to talk about the very unpopular stuff which we'll [00:40:29] Chris Bowen: get on to but but well big batteries are making the progress as well i mean i said as you know home batteries big batteries as being equally important um you know we are third in the world for big battery [00:40:40] Michael Liebreich: investment china us australia in absolute terms which is extraordinary because your population is [00:40:47] Chris Bowen: so much correct 10 percent of per capita we are it's us and then daylight so you add that to what we're doing as i said on home batteries we've added 12 gigawatt hours in 2025 30 gigawatt hours globally was added of home battery capacity and since 1 july last year we've added 12. so you know slightly apples and oranges comparison but by the time we get here to the calendar year you could argue that we might be half of the world's home battery capacity additions through our program and uh the big battery [00:41:14] Michael Liebreich: well the combination of all those batteries yeah it's interesting because you've got a hole in the middle though because you've got the you've got the home batteries and you've got the big batteries what you don't have and by the way also on solar and observation um and you can see this when you fly in you've got all the the homes i don't want to say it starts to look like like like lagos where everybody's put solar on the roof because that's the way they you know they charge their phone and keep the power on and when there's your regular power cuts um but but then you look at your box retailers you look at your schools you look at your warehouses you look at your schools is a bit different oh well pick up on schools because we do have a lot of solar panels and batteries you're not in the front group on the on the community level that's called all the c and i commercial and [00:41:58] Chris Bowen: industrial and community so we do have community batteries they're not as big and important in the system as home and grit but we do have that we've got a government program to support them um 400 across the country you know rolled out over a period of years and they're very good for community support and esprit de corps and you know we're all in this together and they're also they also play a complementary role to the big and the small c and i i mean we do have we do have um solar panels on warehouse roofs but i do accept your fundamental point i want to come back to just i want to anchor [00:42:29] Michael Liebreich: this by the way you said the road to decarbonization goes through households right and i'm sort of trying to maybe we could try to track because okay when you go from the household then you get to the community you're going to say oh we've got lots of programs you're behind but you you're going to say that you're fixing it i suspect is that a good yeah i mean i think characterization again i mean i think how [00:42:48] Chris Bowen: i would characterize it is where we've learned things and have some lessons to share is households um you know where we can help friends and colleagues internationally you know with the greatest respect so what's working australia we think households are working here's how we do it world-class export that [00:43:03] Michael Liebreich: knowledge yeah that's right i could have technology business model knowledge export that right uh heavy industry you know exactly because there's there's the home then there's the community but the heavy [00:43:13] Chris Bowen: industry and the grid and the big chunks well see i see heavy industry is hard here right yeah i mean i think probably the easier part is putting solar panels on the roof of warehouses like that's probably the easy part then you've got high heat hard to abate um you know cement making which is important in australia um plastics um fertilizer you know uh brick works um even um even pet food you know i went out with the prime minister to a big pet food factory in albury which is on the border of two of our states new south wales and victoria we were helping them um get off gas with it's easy because it's just big [00:43:47] Michael Liebreich: industrial heat pumps there's nothing they do well they're doing they're doing solar thermal um at this particular what what temperature do they need oh i'd have to check i'd be very surprised if they need because as soon as it's under 200 degrees then then it feels to me as a thermo geek yeah that the heat [00:44:03] Chris Bowen: pump should be the solution they're doing solar thermal um and we're helping them do that it could be it's [00:44:08] Michael Liebreich: it's not impossible i don't really i don't want lots of people really upset because lee bright said it [00:44:12] Chris Bowen: was a bad idea no no i well they they did all their due diligence it's mars which is a big global company and and and you know they said we think we'd like to try uh solar thermal to get us to the high heat [00:44:23] Michael Liebreich: and we're helping them do that but then let's let's go let's do the the grid the you know wind and the grid because then you know that is of great interest to industry and you do have a lot of pushback from industry uh because of your energy prices uh but let's talk about the grid because you've got pushback there too i want to talk about the um the resistance to your um transmission build out yeah potentially [00:44:48] Chris Bowen: being the gating item in all of this so i mean i would if you want to talk about community views so yes we've got work to do on window we are making some progress on wind but it is challenged we're going absolute gangbusters on not only household solar but utility solar and batteries um you know that is just going absolute pace but wind is going slower and transmission but look if you if you if you want to talk about community support i would say transmission is probably the hardest part um when in in community support but we are making progress so we're about to energize a project energy connect pec which is a new link between south australia and new south wales uh that's about to be turned on that's you know thousands of kilometers um humelink uh which connects our two most populous states um new south wales and victoria via uh snully um is under construction you know the the the towers are going up um and for example that was a controversial it's a beautiful part of australia you know green rolling hills you know undulating rich land so um that was controversial but uh transgrid the company building that ended up with landholder agreement you know voluntary consensual landholder agreements from 99 um of the land compulsory purchased for the one percent yeah so you know again you can work these issues through and again when i'm out in the regions which i spend a lot of time in our you know power regions it's much more nuanced and mixed people people get it you know there's more droughts climate change is real farm productivity is falling we need to diversify our income if we can do that with solar farms and wind farms as well as you know you can run a solar farm with sheep you can run a wind farm with cattle you can't run solar and cattle together because they cows sit on the solar panels but you can run wind farms with cattle you can run you know the largest solar farm in australia is a very big sheep farm the sheep run around and save on the mowing costs because they eat all the grass and the sheep in the heat get under the solar panels so there is actually quite a lot of support there i'm not saying it's unanimous but there's quite a lot of support there for this transition but it's very much not unanimous because [00:46:56] Michael Liebreich: it um energy costs and also pylons and the resistance to them that is one of the one of the arguments one of the reasons being cited for the growth of popularity of one nation of the you know i don't know what to call it a nativist populist right populist the populist right uh they're within the political process they're not they're not uh it's not um afd in germany but it's a populist right uh which is sucking support away from yeah um but you know at the moment mainly the the liberals but it's also uh it's also sucking support away so yeah they're undergoing a surge uh in support and what [00:47:38] Chris Bowen: you're doing is one of the reasons for the surge yeah but the whole i mean there's a right-wing popular surge in many countries in the world at the moment so you know i don't think afd is not um campaigning on you know uh transmission towers in australia and no no no no but but one nation is yes but one [00:47:55] Michael Liebreich: nation is so are you causing that surge is okay i guess no i mean i look i i don't deny that the [00:48:01] Chris Bowen: transition is contested in regional australia i don't deny the populist right is campaigning on it um but you know i don't want to be too political on your podcast because it's an excellent climate change and energy podcast on the politics podcast but you know given we're talking about politics from our our main right-wing party the liberals dropped net zero they've gone you know they've gone pretty populist right they've dropped net zero they're anti-renewables they just had a by-election in in regional new south wales which they lost with a 30 swing so if the answer is moving further to the right that's that's not working for them um and again you know i i spent a lot of time in the regions and it's much more nuanced yes there's loud voices in politics anti the transition there are do they speak for the majority of people in their communities i don't believe they do do they speak for a chunk yes um so and i think it's much more nuanced and i go into local i meet with mayors and they say well we're for this transition we want to diversify we we think agriculture will always be our bedrock but it's not enough we want this other income coming in and the transition is the best game in town that's what i hear in regional queensland and regional new south wales it's not to say that we haven't had work to do to get more community benefit [00:49:17] Michael Liebreich: better consultation etc etc we have been doing that we'll keep doing that you say it's not a politics podcast it's not but the politics is absolutely bound up in this and you know and you're a politician and also you know i i it's it's it is known that i'm a i'm still marginally i'm still just about [00:49:36] Chris Bowen: hanging on yeah i heard you say i heard you say that in a podcast card holding member of the [00:49:40] Michael Liebreich: conservative party which is doing exactly what the liberals are doing nationally here which is chasing reform yes and saying that they would uh that they're resiling or they're um they don't want to do uh net zero 2050 and they want to repeal the climate change act and so i am essentially politically homeless um but so that sounds very very similar what they are doing is making net zero the campaign issue they are well that's right well it's not the only one and and ed milliband energy minister the lightning rod sure so are you in that yes are you the lightning rod in the same way yes yes i am [00:50:17] Chris Bowen: and often climate ministers are you know we we compare notes and go are you the most controversial person in your capital oh yes yes probably um but look i think also the other point um michael is that it's not just about those communities it's also about the broader energy transition i mean we had the energy annual price update last week energy prices down in some cases modestly in some cases significantly [00:50:39] Michael Liebreich: this was the australian energy regulator the aer australia is the worst country for acronyms so this [00:50:45] Chris Bowen: might they brought down the default market offer the dmo the default market of the dmo okay but you [00:50:51] Michael Liebreich: showed that was up to 11 reduction and that's largely driven by batteries right yeah 11 for households [00:50:58] Chris Bowen: 20 for small businesses in rural new south wales that's significant that's got to help that's got to and you know um i far from getting ahead of ourselves and a lot of challenges but you know if we keep those sorts of results up and we get more batteries in over the next 12 months you know and then the year after that as well and then we're going to an election you know we are able to point to the fact that you know we know there were challenges along the way but we always said renewables are the cheapest form of energy and here's the dividend people here's the dividend guys energy bills coming down significantly and i think that fundamentally changes the conversation um of politics and i'll just finish on this point michael you know we had an election last year which was very much a climate and energy election the then leader of the opposition pedded up and said he wanted a referendum on climate and energy he wanted this election to be a referendum on climate energy he went with a nuclear policy um and anti-renewables we ended up with 94 seats in 150 parliament you know so we'll take that result so again and again you know offshore wind we we may or may not talk about but it was controversial the liberals said well we're going to win all these seats where bowen's trying to put offshore wind because it's so toxically unpopular well there was a swing to the labor party in every single one of those seats so there were big rallies and protests some pictures of me and then they turned up quietly on our saturday election and voted labor more than they did three years earlier so you know the quiet majority is supportive of the transition i would [00:52:26] Michael Liebreich: love to ask if that's a platform for a leadership uh a leadership campaign but i won't go there because that would be too political even for even for me it's not the offshore wind when you said it's talk they said it was toxically unpopular my worry is that it's actually going to be toxically expensive yeah [00:52:40] Chris Bowen: look it's challenged it's challenged it's taking you know it's longer and slower and more expensive than we would like but it does also have i don't want to sort of get in a debate about economics with you but it also has other advantages in this it's very windy off australia's coast it's windy at night um it's jobs rich so um you know but it could be i'm going to guess it's good that the bids are going [00:53:03] Michael Liebreich: to come in at about 200 australian victoria's running victoria's running an option i did an episode with lily d'ambrosio now you've got disadvantage you don't know what we talked about yes but um what i asked her was is there a price at which you would simply say we cancel that bit of the plan or do you have to take the best bids at whatever price they come in because um then that seems like [00:53:25] Chris Bowen: like being hostage to fortune well she's running an auction um so i won't comment on her auction um it's a very important part every state's got a different approach to offshore wind victoria's by far the most forward leaning um you know uh we also have proposals in new south wales and western australia where the governments are you know supportive but nowhere near as forward leaning as victoria and that's just a reality that's one of the benefits i guess of a federation that states can within a national framework and i work very closely with my state colleagues and you know we're by and large heading the same direction different perspectives on some things but heading the same direction um that's one of the advantages of federation that states can do those sorts of [00:54:03] Michael Liebreich: things onshore wind so offshore i think you're going to find is expensive if we move on to onshore wind paul simshauser yeah um i did an episode also with him he's obviously the used to run the grid up in queensland very well credentialed very well credentialed professor incredibly knowledgeable um now running ibid rola uh down here in australia he talked and has got data on wind costs so wind used to cost back [00:54:30] Chris Bowen: in 2019 not that long ago there's the bells ringing parliament's about to sit yes ah that's that must be a that's five to five tonight we'll keep going i just for our listeners uh the bells ringing the house of representatives of the senate of australia are just being convened we are truly here in the seat of [00:54:45] Michael Liebreich: power uh power in both senses um wind used to be in 2019 48 australian dollars per megawatt hour which makes it cheaper than coal cheaper than anything um but it's now 110 dollars per megawatt hour and at that price i mean all of the superpower and we can compete for you know basic chemicals and and sustainable aviation fuel and uh ammonia and all those things you can't do any of that if uh because solar will get you only so far because it's intermittent by the time you add batteries to firm it to run a uh any sort of industrial process that becomes expensive and then the wind at 110 as you don is way too expensive so what's your plan to get inflation in your wind and by the way also in your grid under control so i mean i fundamentally agree with your [00:55:41] Chris Bowen: analysis i think i saw you say at the national press club yesterday that australia needs wind question about exactly how much we need this solar hybrid batteries you know that time will tell um we unquestionably need some wind to complement that it has been challenged we've had four wind farms reach financial final investment decision um in the last six months um which is you know four wind farms doesn't sound a lot and it isn't a lot in one sense but it's also a fair number of gigawatts we just did our way of supporting wind is through the capacity investment scheme the cis the capacity investment scheme cis um which is a contract for difference type auction we just did a result a couple of weeks ago wind featured in them solar hybrid featured prominently but some wind featured yanco delta probably most spectacularly um which is the origin energy big wind farm um i'm getting up close to two gigawatts so um you know we're supporting it through that again part part of the problem is with wholesale prices falling dramatically people look at the returns and go actually i can't make that add up so it was sort of in some sense as victims of our [00:56:43] Michael Liebreich: own you have some of the states doing contracts for difference type yeah so new south wales does [00:56:48] Chris Bowen: that primarily through um the um through their scheme which is like our capacity investment scheme but we are also doing it through the capacity investment scheme it's supported a lot of wind um and the good news about last week's auction is it's based on the economics of today so they're putting in bids based on you know very recent market data and winning through the capacity investment scheme so i'm hopeful that origin will be announcing final investment decision on the nk delta quite soon for example um supported by the capacity investment scheme to get on with the job that doesn't directly [00:57:19] Michael Liebreich: answer the question about inflation um because uh but but that you know i'm not sure there is an answer if i'm completely wrong i'll just sort of i'm almost going to give you a bye just in the interest of time sure um with the bell going in the background does that go for five minutes five minutes and then if [00:57:33] Chris Bowen: there's a vote of which i'll have to attend um it'll ring again for four minutes well i hope it's not [00:57:38] Michael Liebreich: too distracting for the for the audience but you're no longer in an era i think we have to accept you're no longer in an era historically australia burning um lignite burning brown coal had very low energy prices among the lowest electricity prices among the lowest in the world and your industry that was built kind of that that was why that's what drove it there is no model like that available i mean none of what we've talked about will ever give you and even i'm not i know you're not suggesting this but [00:58:09] Chris Bowen: even if we built new coal brown coal-fired power stations or black coal-fired power stations they're not going to do that um you know and the challenge one of the challenges we're facing is coal-fired power we still have it it's leaving gradually um uh is that it's increasingly unreliable they're breaking down all the time and that's leading to price spikes at night in particular which is where again batteries are playing a very useful role to counteract some of that but sure i mean the energy market is changing dramatically but you know we have one of the reasons we have so many acronyms in australia is we have a very well developed system of good operators i think the australian energy market operator emo is world class they write the integrated systems plan the isp which is a world-class document they do gen cost um generation costs every two years which which assesses the cost of every type of generation in this fabulous black box model that nobody really [00:58:57] Michael Liebreich: understands but spits out answers and there is a transparency issue by the way it's interesting talking to lily d'ambrosio um she was talking about the modeling for when the two three big coal plants close that um your lawn long young a and b the modeling's all been done but she won't release it and and that's a that's a problem because a lot of people have to plan for how reliable that grid will be when those things are closed and i think there's a well what i would say to that without coming on [00:59:27] Chris Bowen: the specifics of what any states doing but there's a lot of reliance on gen cost and amo and throughout [00:59:33] Michael Liebreich: the whole country it's not a that's not a victoria point that's no but the integrated system plan i [00:59:37] Chris Bowen: think stands up to scrutiny i mean i've had ministers around the world coming and looking at it and studying it and learning from it because it's a roadmap to say okay this is what we see being built [00:59:47] Michael Liebreich: in and this is how we see the system and what does it say about how you keep the lights on you've got lots of solar and batteries okay i get it but then there will come times it doesn't matter how much of that you build well doesn't unless it's insane amounts when those batteries are empty um you may or may not have enough wind even if you do there will be times when you need some sort of there might [01:00:08] Chris Bowen: be three percent five percent at the time i mean that's where gas pickers come in but but you've got to build them well we do have several we've got them running like you know and they're not well they're there they're not turned on very often so we just finished one curry curry um kalongra um again most of our international listeners this will you know go over their heads but we have them and gas will play a role the thing i like about gas is in the power system i see myself as very pragmatic center ground down the middle on gas pragmatic you know is my keyword and i'm a supporter of your [01:00:38] Michael Liebreich: pragmatic reset i agree with most of it and that is about having gas or perhaps in asia by the way you might have coal playing well that uh pragmatic last few percent role well because they've got it and [01:00:49] Chris Bowen: it's resilient the benefit of gas in our context i don't tell other countries how to do it but in our context it's very flexible you know a gas fire power station is zero emissions when it's turned off and the new ones you can turn on and off at two minutes notice which is a very useful support for [01:01:04] Michael Liebreich: renewable grid if the investors are happy because they have to go along with that they have to say well we're going to put our money in this we're going to put uh capex but also opex they've got to they've got to keep maintaining it and it sits there only being used when nothing else is available so they [01:01:20] Chris Bowen: need to be paid somehow well the benefit for them they can they can bid into the state scheme the new south wales scheme they've never won an auction because they can't compete with it so they'll just shut those plants then well what they do is they keep them and then the benefit for them frankly for them is when they are turned on in those rare circumstances the prices are very high by [01:01:38] Michael Liebreich: definition i would absolutely love to go into the energy only market this is where i'm headed you know right or the uh balancing some kind of the uh sorry the capacity markets or some other mechanism to keep those parts because i believe that that is the direction of travel that um the pragmatic climate reset means you've got to figure out how to do that pragmatic no but no one michael has said [01:01:59] Chris Bowen: to me oh we're going to close this gas fire power station because the economics don't work anymore like not yet not yet okay i've been minister for four years no one's come to me with that um you do have you know uh we just finished a new one um i do uh see plans for more but again i think they're that pragmatic part of supporting the renewables um and coming in on rare occasions i mean there might be times when they use more but as i said while companies are and and technologists doing good work to make coal more flexible it's still not very flexible compared to gas correct [01:02:32] Michael Liebreich: now i guess in summary if i if i try to come up a level i think household's great and and you've got plans to kind of grow that out through the communities you've talked about a lot of things that the kind of grid and wind and the bit and the bit that industry was most concerned about um you've almost it's almost you've done the easy bits well it doesn't have felt easy every time it hasn't felt easy but let me tell you i think it might feel a lot harder but also electricity prices already they're coming down but they're pretty damn high and i suppose the final question is how do you answer the criticism that right now given the economic um situation given the crisis um given the fact that the world might go in if this situation in the whole strait of hormones um continues i don't see how the world avoids a recession because it has to shrink so much of its activity just to to to meet the amount of available oil and gas that there is in the world um how do you deal with criticism that you're going to go and jet off to turkey to talk about a whole bunch of stuff that's probably going to drive costs up at least before they drive them down how do you how do you [01:03:43] Chris Bowen: respond i mean the opposition already says that that doesn't matter what i do the opposition criticizes i go to brisbane to chair a meeting of pacific ministers they went berserk about that so yeah i'm not but i'm not the opposition i understand i'm i'm talking about you i think i would say i don't accept renewables put up with pressure on prices they ultimately put down pressure on prices they are more sovereign you know if you've got them they're more sovereign no the sun has to travel 150 million kilometers to the earth it doesn't have to travel the 150 kilometers of the straits of hormones [01:04:13] Michael Liebreich: a quotation from bill mckibbon who was on uh cleaning up a few years back yes yep well but [01:04:19] Chris Bowen: one i have uh i've taken out for lots of spins um because it's true um and particularly in australia's context i mean we can harness the sun here um particularly in the transport decarbonization context australia playing a bigger role internationally is very helpful for these discussions you know any climate and energy minister with the salt will spend time interacting with international colleagues the difference is for australia this year we have more impact because we are chairing the cop negotiations and that increases our ability to talk to international friends about the current situation and as i was finishing where we started no minister around the world is saying to me you know what this strats of hormones crisis is teaching us we need more reliance on fossil fuels that is not a [01:05:00] Michael Liebreich: conversation that's being held anywhere they don't say they need more reliance on it but i bet you a lot of [01:05:05] Chris Bowen: them are saying we need more of it and they're saying well to get through a short-term crisis but [01:05:09] Michael Liebreich: it's not the long-term solution well the way i put it in the press uh the national press club yesterday i said this is we should not forget this is a fossil crisis and it does not have a fossil solution yep that's all right i agree with you thank you so much i will see you in antalia i will be there for cleaning up we'll be hosting something on behalf of our leadership circle yes i don't know how long i'll be there you probably will be there longer than me but maybe we'll meet in turkia in what is [01:05:35] Chris Bowen: it the end of november beginning of december time well i'd love to it's um you know as i said i'm a admirer of your work uh i'm a listener religiously to the podcast one of us you know i'm sure we all have a list of podcasts that come up on our feed that we listen to you're one of them and uh thanks for what you're doing to um help uh the the energy and climate conversation globally [01:05:55] Michael Liebreich: thank you very much chris it's a great pleasure great pleasure so that was chris bowen the minister for climate change and energy of the commonwealth of australia as always we'll put links in the show notes to resources that we mentioned during our conversation principally that would be then episode 253 with fatty birol whom i spoke to just after the beginning of the current gulf crisis and episode 98 with the great bill mckibben who came up with the phrase about sunlight traveling from the sun and not being held up in the straits of hormuz so i'd like to thank our camera crew here today from the department of climate change energy environment and water our producer oscar boyd video editor jamie oliver head of operations kendall smith joe jagger who worked so hard to put this whole tour together the leadership circle without whom none of this would happen and you the audience for spending time with us here today please make sure that you've subscribed to our newsletter you can find that at cleaninguppod.substack.com make sure that you don't miss any of the other episodes from either this australia deep dive or our normal cleaning up programming cleaning up is proud to be supported by its leadership circle the members are actis alcazar energy arup copenhagen infrastructure partners 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