"Apocalypse Now and Then": Author Arundhati Roy on Artificial Intelligence, Capitalism & More

[0:04] This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. [0:08] I'm Amy Goodman in Los Angeles with Nermeen Sheikh in New York. [0:12] We're continuing our conversation with the acclaimed writer, Arundhati Roy. [0:16] She spoke in New York earlier this week at the People's AI Summit, [0:21] and she has a new essay on AI in Equator magazine. [0:25] It's headlined, Apocalypse Now and Then. [0:29] Arundhati, thanks so much for staying with us. [0:32] Why, in an essay on AI, do you say, Apocalypse Now and Then? [0:39] Well, when I started thinking about writing this piece, [0:43] I just saw that young whistleblower who came out of Anthropic, Jacob Coxon, [0:50] and, you know, warning us that they were building something [0:53] that sounded like the Manhattan Project on steroids, [0:56] and accept that the scientists were all driven by, you know, [1:02] the idea of profit, and we've got to get there first. [1:06] And then I was bemused by the fact that all the CEOs came out [1:09] and discussed it and sort of more or less informed us [1:14] that, you know, our future as a species was in their hands, [1:19] but they were, you know, going to take care. [1:21] And then you realize that somehow this had a little to do with, [1:28] obviously, the fact that AI was, did contain risks, [1:33] they say around 10% or something, of eliminating the human race. [1:38] But it was also something that was being put on the market, [1:42] our apocalypse, you know, we were, they were going to have an IPO, [1:45] oh, and, you know, the more lethal they sounded, [1:48] the more dangerous they sounded, the more irreducible they sounded, [1:53] you know, it was going to drive up their value. [1:57] So initially it was called Apocalypse Now, [2:01] buy ours, get yours free, you know. [2:03] And then, so that's why I call it that. [2:07] Well, you also ask, right at the beginning of the essay, [2:12] are we being gradually locked out of language? [2:17] Explain what you mean by that [2:18] and why you think that is what may eventually happen. [2:22] Well, because as a writer, [2:24] I've watched what's happening in the world of literature, [2:28] in public, in the publishing industry, [2:31] with agents, with students, [2:32] and AI has just crashed into it [2:36] like a brick through the windscreen, you know. [2:38] So you're seeing publishers [2:40] having to look at new writers, [2:43] work like detectives inspecting crime scenes. [2:47] You've had scandal after scandal of, [2:49] you know, prizes being given to works [2:52] that were then done by AI. [2:54] Yesterday I read that there's a new prize for AI writing. [2:59] And you have, [3:00] and I also said it because you have myself [3:04] as one of hundreds of thousands of writers [3:06] whose work was just taken without our permission [3:09] by Anthropic to train their large language models. [3:14] And then I get a notice [3:15] because of a class action suit [3:18] saying, oh, we'll give you $2,000, you know, [3:21] per book or something. [3:23] I mean, books that people like myself [3:25] have spent a lifetime trying to write, [3:28] a lifetime trying to develop, [3:30] a language that is yours, [3:32] a lifetime trying to explain your background, [3:35] your culture, your thoughts, [3:37] your way of living. [3:39] I mean, this complete lack of understanding [3:41] of literature, [3:43] they've done the same, you know, [3:44] with taking people's voices, [3:46] people's likeness, [3:48] people paint, people's paintings. [3:50] And now what? [3:50] You press a button and say, [3:52] write a novel like Arundhati Roy [3:54] or give me this, you know, [3:55] in such and such a style. [3:57] It's a kind of, you know, [4:00] these are supposed to be intelligent people, [4:01] but you see a kind of absolute opaque denseness [4:08] to understanding what human beings are, [4:11] what human civilization is. [4:12] It's like corporatizing and privatizing [4:15] the history of human endeavor, [4:17] the history of literature, [4:18] the history of civilization. [4:20] I mean, it's the same thing. [4:21] I know even mathematicians are feeling the same [4:24] as writers are, you know. [4:26] What do you think of, [4:29] everything's just a product [4:30] to be sold on the market, [4:32] owned by you. [4:33] I mean, Sam Altman said, [4:34] intelligence, [4:35] we see intelligence as a commodity [4:37] to be sold by the meter. [4:41] You know, whose intelligence? [4:43] Not yours, certainly. [4:44] Ours. [4:45] Our collective intelligence, [4:47] stolen from the human race [4:48] and corporatized by these handful of white men, [4:52] you know? [4:53] And how do you think, [4:54] because you also write that [4:56] disrupting and vitiating [4:58] the fundamental relationship [5:00] between humans and language [5:01] will undermine all semblance [5:04] of social coherence? [5:07] So, I actually, [5:09] in the next paragraph, [5:10] quote the gospel according to St. John. [5:12] I said it's not because of my faith, [5:14] but more as a writer's ego, [5:16] where he says, [5:17] you know, [5:17] in the beginning was the word [5:19] and the word was with God [5:20] and the word was God. [5:22] And if you cannot understand [5:24] what language, [5:26] and I'm not just talking about [5:28] the written word, you know, [5:29] I'm just talking about language, [5:31] communication, [5:32] the telling of stories, [5:33] all the most beloved religious texts, [5:38] whether it's the Bible [5:39] or the Koran, [5:39] everything has to do [5:41] with stories that have been told. [5:44] And now you're taking that, [5:46] you're skinning it, [5:48] you're stuffing it, [5:50] and you're selling it, [5:53] a dead thing, [5:55] to people who can now no longer, [5:57] you can no longer trust [5:59] that I have written this [6:00] or I am saying this. [6:02] You know, [6:02] I have to watch videos of myself [6:05] that are not me saying the things [6:07] I've never said. [6:09] You know, [6:09] you have to sort of end up [6:11] being in a space [6:12] with absolutely, [6:14] all the paths are moving, [6:16] nothing can be trusted. [6:17] So, [6:18] and we at least [6:20] are people [6:21] who belong to a generation [6:23] that knew otherwise. [6:24] But what is going to happen [6:26] to the younger generation? [6:27] Are they never going to experience [6:29] what it is to strive, [6:31] to fail, [6:32] to create something flawed, [6:35] or the ecstasy [6:35] of creating a piece of art? [6:37] You know, [6:38] I see us already [6:41] moving towards [6:42] a tidal wave [6:43] of mass psychosis. [6:45] like you're looking in the mirror [6:46] and it's someone [6:48] who looks like yourself [6:49] looking back, [6:50] but it's not you. [6:52] You're looking, [6:53] you're looking at me [6:54] and you don't know [6:55] whether it's me or not. [6:56] I don't know [6:57] whether it's you or not. [6:58] So apart from [6:59] the corporate stuff, [7:01] the climate, [7:02] you know, [7:03] impact, [7:04] the pollution [7:06] from data centers, [7:07] the AI bubble [7:09] that's about to burst [7:10] and smash the economy [7:12] in so many ways, [7:13] I see fundamentally [7:15] something really, [7:17] really, [7:19] it's not just about [7:20] the destruction [7:21] of the human race. [7:22] It's about the destruction [7:24] of humanness. [7:28] And, you know, [7:29] Arundhati, [7:30] the subtitle [7:31] of Apocalypse Now and Then [7:33] is Artificial Intelligence [7:35] is Capitalism's Final Destination. [7:38] If you can explain that, [7:41] and also, [7:42] as people talk about [7:43] what it can mean, [7:44] it is, yes, a tool, [7:47] but isn't the real issue here [7:49] is who controls that? [7:52] And if you can talk [7:53] about the billionaire tech bros, [7:57] the trillionaire tech bros, [8:00] the people who surrounded [8:01] President Trump, [8:02] stood behind him [8:03] in his second inauguration, [8:06] it's not so much [8:07] about whatever [8:07] the technology is, right? [8:09] It's about who controls it. [8:12] Well, I think it's about both. [8:14] I mean, what that technology is [8:16] is extremely important. [8:18] But the reason I said [8:20] it's capitalism's [8:21] final destination [8:22] is, you know, [8:23] as a writer, [8:25] apart from being [8:26] a literary writer [8:27] or a novelist, [8:28] I am someone who, [8:30] for years and years, [8:31] has followed the process [8:33] of the corporatization [8:35] and neoliberalism, [8:37] mining, dams. [8:39] It's all the same thing. [8:40] You know, the story [8:42] of big dams [8:43] and how you basically [8:44] steal a river, [8:46] centralize the water, [8:47] and then decide [8:48] who can get it [8:49] and who can't get it. [8:50] But you were mining water, [8:53] you're mining minerals, [8:54] you're mining, [8:56] you know, [8:57] you're destroying mountains [8:59] to pull out the uranium, [9:01] not understanding [9:02] what that uranium does [9:04] in an ecosystem [9:05] when it's still [9:06] in the mountain. [9:07] But now you've moved [9:08] to literally mining [9:10] the mind [9:11] and the organs [9:12] of human beings, [9:14] you know. [9:14] so it's called [9:16] and of course, [9:18] colonization [9:19] has always come [9:20] bearing shiny gifts. [9:23] So you have these [9:24] consumer apps [9:25] as they are called. [9:26] So in the essay, [9:28] I say it's a bit like, [9:30] you know, [9:30] during the tsunami [9:31] when the sea drew back [9:33] and people saw [9:35] these miles and miles [9:36] of shining, [9:38] glistening beach [9:38] full of beautiful shells [9:40] and castles [9:41] and secrets [9:42] and those are the [9:43] consumer apps, [9:44] you know, [9:44] I can be your therapist, [9:46] I can be your mother, [9:47] I can be your lover, [9:48] I can write your novel [9:49] in a minute, [9:50] I can get it translated, [9:52] I'm just a miraculous [9:54] doctor to you. [9:56] Whereas far away, [9:58] a huge tidal wave [10:00] is building up [10:01] of stupidity [10:02] that's going to just [10:03] take us over [10:04] and that tidal wave [10:05] is controlled by men [10:07] who are openly talking [10:09] about wanting to overthrow [10:10] the government, [10:11] wanting to overthrow [10:12] the finance system [10:13] one of them [10:15] who I quote says, [10:16] everyone on the internet [10:17] needs to be policed [10:19] and stack ranked, [10:21] you know, [10:21] you're going to have [10:22] massive unemployment. [10:24] In India, [10:25] you have already [10:26] millions of people [10:28] having to work [10:28] with cameras [10:29] on their foreheads [10:31] so that they can record [10:32] their movements [10:33] to train a robot [10:35] that's going to replace them [10:36] and they can't not do it [10:39] because there are millions [10:40] waiting to take that place. [10:42] So we are being invited [10:44] to delete ourselves [10:47] in some way [10:48] and we are moving [10:50] further and further [10:51] into that ocean [10:52] as the tidal wave builds. [10:55] And yes, [10:56] of course, [10:57] there are these five [10:57] or six people [10:58] who are controlling [10:59] the buttons [11:00] who've already [11:01] disaffiliated themselves [11:03] from the human race. [11:04] They've already [11:05] made themselves, [11:06] you know, [11:07] homes in far-flung areas [11:08] stacked with food [11:10] and water [11:10] and ammunition. [11:12] They're already [11:13] talking about [11:14] data centers [11:15] and space. [11:16] So it's, [11:17] I say, [11:18] that's what I said [11:19] in the beginning [11:19] of the essay. [11:20] AI is actual [11:22] idiocy. [11:23] You know, [11:23] it's like, [11:25] why are we, [11:27] why are we thinking [11:28] it's some wonderful thing [11:30] that's going to be [11:32] of great benefit [11:33] to the human race? [11:34] It's not. [11:35] It's going to suck [11:37] the beating heart [11:38] and the spirit [11:39] and the soul [11:39] out of us. [11:41] So let me ask you, [11:42] Anandati, [11:42] because obviously, [11:43] as you say yourself, [11:45] I mean, [11:46] one doesn't necessarily [11:48] have to say [11:49] that it's all [11:49] at this point [11:50] inevitable, [11:51] but I think [11:51] it's fairly certain [11:52] that it's not irreversible. [11:55] In other words, [11:56] I don't see [11:57] how this will [11:59] go back, [12:00] recede, [12:01] much less disappear. [12:02] So the question is, [12:04] as you ask [12:04] in the piece, [12:05] how are we supposed [12:06] to react? [12:07] By calling [12:08] for regulations? [12:10] How do you discipline [12:11] an industry [12:12] that makes [12:12] Francis Ford Coppola's [12:14] Apocalypse Now, [12:15] racist tropes included, [12:17] look like a current [12:18] affairs documentary? [12:20] So what is [12:21] called for now? [12:23] So I think, [12:24] you know, [12:25] we are looking [12:27] I don't agree [12:30] that it's, [12:31] you know, [12:31] irreversible [12:32] and not irreversible [12:35] or inevitable [12:35] because what you're [12:38] seeing now [12:38] is a crisis [12:39] for them, [12:41] which is that [12:42] the amount of land, [12:43] the amount of money, [12:44] the amount of data, [12:45] the amount of energy, [12:46] the amount of water [12:47] that they need [12:48] to feed the data centers [12:51] and set them up [12:52] and feed their supercomputers [12:54] means that [12:55] they are not viable, [12:57] you know, [12:57] which is why [12:58] they are trying [12:59] to fuse themselves [13:00] into the government [13:01] so that [13:02] you're not, [13:03] you're not [13:04] just another company, [13:06] you're something [13:07] that is essential [13:10] to national security. [13:13] We're going [13:14] to make you weapons, [13:15] we're going [13:15] to make you, [13:16] you know, [13:17] lab-grown viruses, [13:19] we're going [13:19] to save you [13:20] from wherever [13:21] and it's, [13:23] when that bubble [13:24] bursts, [13:24] the problem [13:25] is that that money [13:26] has been circulated [13:28] into so many spaces [13:30] that when it crashes, [13:32] it's going to cause [13:33] a crisis [13:34] and so what they are [13:36] trying to maneuver [13:36] themselves into [13:37] is a space [13:38] where they are [13:39] too big to fail [13:40] but they are going [13:41] to fail [13:42] and how are we going [13:43] to deal with the fallout [13:45] is really the question. [13:47] So you feel [13:48] it's likely [13:48] that all of them [13:49] will fail? [13:50] It's not like [13:51] the dot-com moment [13:52] where the vast majority [13:54] failed [13:56] but then things [13:57] like Google? [13:58] I mean, [13:58] I don't know [13:59] whether all of them [14:00] will fail [14:01] or how it will [14:02] actually pan out [14:04] but I just know [14:05] that this picture [14:06] that is being painted [14:08] for us [14:08] of this kind of [14:10] miraculous revolution [14:12] of progress [14:13] is just [14:14] absolute nonsense. [14:16] Well, [14:17] you talked about [14:17] and this is something [14:18] that comes up [14:19] in every conversation [14:21] about data centers [14:22] is the climate impacts [14:24] how much water [14:25] how much power [14:26] electricity, [14:27] etc. [14:27] is needed. [14:28] If you could [14:29] we've talked about [14:29] data centers [14:30] in some parts [14:32] of the world [14:32] but I don't believe [14:33] yet about India. [14:34] If you could talk [14:35] about where [14:36] they're being built [14:37] and what local [14:38] communities [14:39] are experiencing. [14:40] They are being built [14:41] in Vishakhapatnam [14:43] and the [14:44] the clearances [14:46] being given [14:46] to them [14:47] as if they're [14:47] just buildings [14:48] you know [14:49] without really [14:50] talking about [14:51] exactly what's [14:52] going to happen [14:53] around them [14:54] and what's going [14:55] to happen [14:55] with the groundwater [14:56] and there is [14:57] a big resistance [14:58] taking place [14:59] but the problem [15:00] is you know [15:01] Nermeen [15:01] that you can go [15:03] and set it up [15:03] in Ladakh [15:05] where there are [15:05] no people [15:06] then where is [15:06] there going [15:07] to be a resistance [15:08] but the glaciers [15:09] the world's [15:10] water tower [15:11] is going to melt [15:12] you know [15:12] but so [15:14] so you [15:14] you are [15:15] and as I said [15:16] I was saying [15:17] at the AI [15:18] people's meeting [15:20] that people here [15:21] are fighting [15:22] data centers [15:23] so what's going [15:25] to happen [15:25] they're going [15:26] to say [15:26] okay let's just [15:27] move them [15:27] to a place [15:28] like India [15:29] or a place [15:30] which is ready [15:31] to accept [15:32] the toxic waste [15:33] has always been [15:35] traditionally [15:35] you know [15:36] so but it's [15:38] what I was saying [15:39] is that [15:40] we are all [15:41] on the front line [15:42] it's not just [15:43] the communities [15:44] around the data center [15:45] we are all [15:46] on the front line [15:47] or we are firewood [15:49] you know [15:49] so we've got to [15:51] understand what's [15:52] going on [15:52] often what happens [15:53] is that we understand [15:55] too late [15:56] you know [15:57] so what do you think [15:59] ultimately [15:59] those of us [16:01] on the front lines [16:01] which is everyone [16:02] what should people [16:03] be doing [16:04] we should be [16:05] spreading the awareness [16:07] and we should be [16:08] pretty brave [16:10] about saying [16:11] no [16:13] you know [16:14] saying that [16:15] we [16:15] you know [16:16] this thing about [16:17] oh it's too late [16:18] they're too big [16:19] they're already here [16:21] I think [16:22] we need to just [16:24] understand [16:26] that [16:27] it is really [16:30] a tidal wave [16:31] of stupidity [16:32] that's about [16:33] to inundate us [16:34] anyway [16:34] I write [16:36] what I write [16:37] and I'll go down [16:39] having said [16:40] what I have to say [16:41] you know [16:41] it's not that [16:42] I'm [16:42] you know [16:44] but there has to be [16:46] somewhere [16:46] where you put down [16:47] the peg [16:48] and say [16:48] this is what it really is [16:51] now [16:51] if we are helpless [16:53] or not helpless [16:53] that's up to us [16:54] to decide [16:55] but [16:55] let's just say it [16:58] you know [16:59] let's just say it [16:59] really loudly [17:00] so Arunthati [17:02] we'd like you [17:04] to read [17:04] we'd like to end [17:05] by asking you [17:06] to read [17:07] a little bit [17:08] from your essay [17:09] Apocalypse Now and Then [17:10] okay [17:11] so I'm going to just [17:11] read the end of it [17:12] while there's so much [17:15] debate about [17:16] what AI can [17:17] and cannot do [17:18] for humans [17:19] there is [17:20] too little talk [17:21] about what it's doing [17:22] to humans [17:23] studies have warned [17:25] of a relationship [17:26] between AI [17:27] and cognitive decline [17:28] in human beings [17:29] human intelligence [17:31] looks set to plunge [17:32] in proportion [17:33] with the rise [17:34] of artificial intelligence [17:36] perhaps our unused [17:38] brains will atrophy [17:39] our heads will shrink [17:41] and our fingers [17:42] will turn into [17:43] undulating [17:44] prompt tentacles [17:45] those of us [17:47] who've already lived [17:48] our lives [17:48] in a different [17:49] kind of world [17:50] know what we're losing [17:51] but what if [17:52] the generation [17:53] that is about [17:54] to come of age [17:55] will it have [17:56] its own language [17:57] its own thoughts [17:58] its own grief [17:59] will it have [18:00] the right to strive [18:01] to fall [18:02] to fail [18:04] to be imperfect [18:05] will it experience [18:06] the impossible pain [18:08] and ecstatic pleasure [18:09] of solving a math equation [18:11] or creating art [18:13] or literature [18:14] or music [18:14] of its own [18:15] however flawed [18:16] the triumph of AI [18:18] will be a crime [18:20] against humanness [18:21] it will bottle our brains [18:23] in formaldehyde [18:24] it will destroy the world [18:25] as we know it [18:26] the men who promote it [18:28] and profit from it [18:29] are cognizant of this [18:31] and have already made [18:32] arrangements [18:33] to exit [18:34] into another realm [18:36] the oligarchs [18:38] are announcing [18:39] the battle lines [18:40] proudly [18:41] loudly [18:42] that it's us [18:43] against them [18:44] they suggest [18:46] without flinching [18:47] that for AI [18:49] to thrive [18:49] humanity [18:50] may have to die [18:52] the young generation [18:53] that is rising up [18:54] to fight it [18:55] understands this [18:57] I know that [18:58] earlier in this essay [18:59] I suggested [19:00] that we should [19:01] quote [19:02] regulate [19:03] with extreme prejudice [19:05] but what I really [19:07] want to say [19:07] about those AI companies [19:09] is this [19:09] terminate [19:11] with extreme prejudice [19:12] thank you [19:14] Arantati Roy [19:15] for reading [19:16] from your new [19:17] essay [19:18] Apocalypse Now [19:19] and Then [19:19] we'll link to the essay [19:20] at democracynow.org [19:22] Arantati Roy's [19:23] critically acclaimed memoir [19:25] Mother Mary Comes to Me [19:26] is now out [19:27] in paperback [19:28] to watch the full interview [19:30] visit democracynow.org [19:31] I'm Nermeen Sheik [19:32] with Amy Goodman [19:33] thanks for watching 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