Alternative Energy Panel — Full Interview — Code 2022

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: All right, so I've now promised this audience that you are all doing something about climate change. Let's start quickly, introduce your companies, what you're building. I got started. You know, let's start with you. [00:00:18] Speaker 2: So our company, EcoWave Power, developed a unique, innovative technology for generation of clean electricity from ocean and sea waves. So basically, we did something that was considered impossible because for many, many years people have been trying to harness wave energy with no success in the offshore, in the middle of the sea. We connect our technology to existing man-made structures such as breakwaters, spears, and jetty, which simplifies the whole process and enables a very fast implementation. [00:00:45] Speaker 1: And you have a very interesting personal backstory. Do you want to talk about that a little bit? [00:00:50] Speaker 2: So I live in Israel, but I was actually not born in Israel. I was born in Ukraine in 1986. And two weeks after I was born, the Chernobyl nuclear reactor exploded, which was the largest in history nuclear disaster in terms of constant casualties. I was one of the babies that got hurt from the negative effects of the explosion. I actually had a respiratory arrest and a clinical death. And my mother just approached my crib. She looked down at me. I was pale blue, not breathing. And she ran to my dad and she was like, my baby is dead. My baby is dead. Like, what do I do? And she's a nurse, but she forgot because she was so stressed. So my dad told her, you're a nurse, do something. And she gave me a moth to moth resuscitation, which actually saved my life. So I got a second chance in life. I don't remember any of it. I was a baby. But growing up hearing like, wow, you got a second chance in life. You really want to do something good with it. And that's kind of how I ended up in the wave energy industry. And that has been my passion since I was 24 when I opened the company. [00:01:45] Vince: Amazing. Vince? Yeah, I'm Vince. My company's Gradient. We help electrify buildings. Buildings are one of the largest producers of greenhouse gases. And heating in buildings is especially difficult to electrify. And so we do it with heat pumps. And I think the reason that this is really exciting for us is because it's not just a climate change mitigation problem. It can help us adapt to climate change because a lot of folks need better building infrastructure, better heating and cooling to protect against some of the extreme weather events that we're now seeing. So you get to both help people directly and help decadronize. [00:02:16] Speaker 1: I 100% want to come back to the idea of mitigation, but let's go down to the panel. Andrew? [00:02:20] Andy Marsh: Yeah, I'm Andy Marsh. I'm the CEO of Plug. Plug is the highest market cap company in the world. It's a pure plate hydrogen fuel cell company, about 15 billion. It's because we actually do real things. There's over 60,000 fuel cells out there, which moved 25% of food during COVID in the United States, which very few people know. We're building the first green hydrogen network across the country. Here in California, in the Central Valley, we're building a plant. We're also have JVs with Renault in France, putting on-road vehicles, Axione in Spain, building a hydrogen plant in Belgium, and we have a joint venture with SK in South Korea. So that's 12. Laura? [00:03:05] Laura Zapata: Great. Hi, everyone. My name is Laura Zapata. I'm the co-founder and the CEO of Clearloop. We are a startup based in Nashville, Tennessee, and what we do is we focus on how do we build more solar projects to clean up the grid with the help of all the wonderful companies that are saying they want to be dead zero. So it's a way to expand access to clean energy and clean up the grid while companies get to take credit for the carbon offsets that they're helping produce by building these projects. [00:03:33] Speaker 1: So let's start with mitigation. All of you have started companies. You're all in the market. Is the market changing our energy profile to halt or reverse climate change, or is it mitigating the effects that we already have? [00:03:48] Vince: Do you mean the market for climate change mitigation solutions? Is it like slowing us down or actually bringing us negative? [00:03:56] Speaker 1: Yeah. Is the heat in California your opportunity, or is it something that you can pull back? [00:04:02] Vince: Yeah. I think that at best we can get back to a semi-neutral state, but we have to do more than just mitigation for sure. [00:04:10] Speaker 1: Laura, you're obviously working with companies. You're selling credits. How do you think about that? [00:04:13] Laura Zapata: Yeah. I think we first have to stop digging. We're still burning fossil fuels to create electricity in this country. It's over 60% of our grid mix. And then when you start looking at the middle part of the country where it's 80%, and there's not big, massive scale change that is happening. The oil company CEO. Yeah. There we go. So we're still doing that, but we're still flipping our lights on. And we just got an alert the other day about this. And so how do we make sure that as we are replacing, that we're talking about this, we're having this conversation, but we're also doing something practical. The boring stuff of deploying more physical infrastructure is really important. [00:04:58] Speaker 6: So speaking of deploying the Inflation Reduction Act just passed, what are the implications of that both for your companies and for climate in general? [00:05:08] Laura Zapata: Well, for us, the biggest implication is that there's lots of incentives to not only build in the U.S. and build more of this technology. We just had the solar industry had it sort of came to a halt at the beginning of this year because there was this big back and forth about where do we build these products, and it became a trade issue. So it's helpful, but I think what we need to remember is that this is not a mandate. This is an incentive, so it's up to all of us in the private sector to figure out how do we take our collective power of capitalism and use it to then, you know, get the rewards of those incentives. But this is not, you know, the United States didn't all of a sudden say we're going to go carbon neutral, we're going to go 100% green. This is just an incentive, and we need to take that signal so it's time for us to go run with it. [00:05:58] Andy Marsh: Yeah, I'm going to tell you it's a game changer. I'm also the chairman of the Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Energy Association of the United States. We worked on this for two years. Hydrogen was a big winner, and it was a big winner because people believe 20% of world's energy by 2050 will come from hydrogen. There is a $3 production tax credit for green hydrogen. That will drive the costs of hydrogen lower than natural gas. It will also position the U.S. to be a net exporter of green hydrogen and green ammonia. Already, when I speak to York, who was the leader in policy, there, you know, Hydrogen York wrote a letter to the president of the EC yesterday saying the U.S. is far ahead because of policy. It positions us also to be able to raise continued large amounts of funds on Wall Street to really fund large programs. So it is, it is, puts the United States in a very, very unique position. [00:07:02] Speaker 6: Yeah, how do you, how do you think about it? [00:07:04] Speaker 2: So basically, I think, first of all, it's an amazing step. The fact that, you know, a country like the United States announces the largest in history investment into renewable energy, 369 billion, is amazing. And all other countries in the world will be looking after the United States and doing the same. Now, this is kind of on the announcement level, but what happens in practice, in the United States right now, only 20% of the electricity is being produced by renewable energy. Only 12% of this electricity is actually used. So, basically, you're using 10% of renewable energy, according to the Energy Information Administration of the United States. Now, there's not enough implementation of innovative sources. There's not enough regulation. There's not enough things that are being done other than the big statements. If we're looking specifically at California, California is super impressive. It tripled its renewable energy since 2005. Yet, I see announcements like two months ago in April, California hit 95% of its energy from renewables. All the newspapers were covering it. Does anybody know for how long did it hit the 95% or 97%? Three seconds. That's news. Like, it's embarrassing. So, I think the announcements are great, but there needs to be way more done. There needs to be – listen, I'm from wave energy, so I'm not objective, but I do believe that the solution for the world's problem is incorporating all renewable energy sources, and only then we can have a 100% environmentally friendly world. [00:08:30] Vince: For us, we see massive incentives for heat pumps, which is what we do, the way you electrify heating is a heat pump. There's massive incentives for that in the IRA. I appreciate that it also addresses American manufacturing and energy security. These are other two important aspects of electrifying our buildings as we rely less on fuels that are occasionally politically difficult. But the way we see it, the government has a huge role to play in removing barriers to these things scaling, but you also have to address the customer experience. If you don't make a better customer experience, you'll never adopt a lot of these technologies fast enough to hit climate change goals. And so, I think it's a yes-and situation. We certainly need policy like the IRA. It's not the only thing. [00:09:22] Speaker 1: All right, Vince, you keep setting me up for – this is the hard question. We're going to talk about tech at the tech conference, not the government. All of you are doing things that have been tried in the past. There have been wave power systems. I have a very cranky geothermal heat pump at my house. Hydrogen is notoriously finicky fuel. The SLS launch was just scrubbed because the hydrogen leak credits are a notoriously political problem. All these things have been tried. What are your moats? What are the technical innovations that are actually going to help your company succeed? [00:09:52] Speaker 2: So, in my field specifically, 99% of the competitors in the wave energy field have historically decided to go into the offshore. Offshore means four or five kilometers into the sea. When they went this far into the sea, imagine they put this huge floater and they stuck all the conversion equipment, the generators, all the expensive parts, inside these floaters in the middle of the water. Now, what happened? The prices were sky-high. A 100 kilowatt power station by Pelamis was developed for $150 million. That's enough electricity for 100 households. It will never ROI. On top of everything, after three days of operation, it broke down. Total loss on the coast of Portugal. So, it was super expensive, breaking down. No insurance company in its right mind would insure a company that breaks down every three days. The premiums are insane. Environmentalists, which were supposed to be the greatest proponents and supporters of wave energy, were objecting it because it created a new presence on the ocean floor. And most of them didn't even get the chance to connect to the electrical grid because, you know, they had such high costs and breaking down a lot. So, they became a big question mark on whether wave energy can even safely connect to the electrical grid. So, when I looked at the industry, when I started researching, like, why everything goes so wrong and, you know, and that created a big fear among the investors, among technical partners and so on, I found out that let's look at another industry that is successful. Let's look at the wind industry. They never dared to go into the offshore in the middle of the ocean. They tested 100 years. They only built all-land wind turbines. And only after 100 years, when they became technologically strong, financially strong, they went in the offshore. Wave energy was overconfident. Everybody went where it's the most difficult and expensive. Wrong. So, what we're doing is basically doing the same that wind did. We're starting on the onshore and nearshore. When I'm saying that, I don't mean prime real estate and, you know, surfer beaches and so on. I mean existing structures, breakwaters, spears, jetties. It's not prime real estate. Nobody is using it. And all these breakwaters that we build more and more every year because of climate change, by the way, are actually changing the ecological balance and they're bad for the environment. But we have to put them in to protect the ports and the coastal populations. So, we take something bad for the environment, we turn it to a source of clean electricity. A win-win situation. So, that's what we did different. [00:12:02] Speaker 1: How much engineering efforts did you have to do to implement that idea? [00:12:05] Speaker 2: A lot. So, I opened a company in 2011 when I was 24. And, of course, we made a lot of mistakes and we fixed them and we made some more mistakes and we fixed them. And then I had to do some more because, you know, just to try. And so, of course, we did a lot of engineering. But the fact that we started from the beginning with a different approach, like, again, 99% of the companies are going offshore and we're the only one, like, standing alone in the market saying we're going to a completely different direction. And all the scientific committee looked at me like, she's 24, she has no technical background, she's insane. She's going to a completely different, like, way than anybody else did. And right now, according to the newest reports by IRELA, the International Renewable Energy Agency, the way that we chose point absorber technologies are the technology that is going to dominate the market in the future. So, from insane, I want to be, like, very smart. So, it's going to be wrong. [00:12:54] Speaker 6: I want to talk to these folks, too, but I just have to ask about wave power generation. This is not something I'm familiar with. Okay, so you set up this widget on a jetty or whatever. The wave comes through. And then what happened? Like, a crank is turning? Like, where is the electricity coming from? [00:13:07] Speaker 2: Super easy. [00:13:08] Speaker 6: Yeah. [00:13:08] Speaker 2: Like, for me, but I try to explain. Basically, you have floaters that look like little boats that connect to the external side of the marine structures. The floaters are going up and down with the movement of the waves. They're pushing a hydrocylinder, which transmits biodegradable fluid into land-located accumulators. A pressure is being built the higher the wave, the higher the pressure, which is used to turn the hydromotor, turning a generator, and sending electricity to the grid via an inverter. Now, the whole technology is controlled by a smart automation system. So, when the waves are too high for the system to handle, the floaters automatically rise above the water level. They become part of the wall, and they stay in the upward position until the storm passes. And when the storm passes, they go back into the water and commence operation. Again, very similar to wind turbines. They blade lock down when the wind is too strong. [00:13:54] Speaker 1: So, Vince, like I said, I have a cranky geothermal system in my house. When it flips on, the whole house dims. It's a big compressor. Gradient is not that. What is your moat? What is your technical innovation? [00:14:13] Vince: I am a thermodynamics nerd, and I can spend a lot of times in the thermo side to me. What we did, we have a lot of thermo PhDs in our company. But I kind of tell you the practical customer side and why it matters. I'm guessing that most of the cost of getting a geothermal system wasn't the hardware itself. It was the work. It was the labor to actually get in its own application. And so we realized that with the industry. And we said, we're going to start with a product that doesn't require any on-site labor. We're going to take it all into the product itself so that you can deploy quickly. Because this was actually the barrier that we saw from customers. They were having to call technicians and talk to a lot of technical people about what they needed for their building. We needed a drop-in solution, and that ends up removing massive amounts of cost for getting this into homes. And then also, your comfort in your home is so much more than just the air temperature. And so we focused on creating an overall better user experience, from installation to use of the device, noise, light, app control, etc. And really focused on an all-in user experience, because it's just about so much more than temperature. [00:15:13] Speaker 1: Let me put you on that. Yes, the user experience. So you have an extract system in your house, and you're like, well, this is burning gas. I want to get rid of it. I'm going to get to a heat pump. It's going to be electric. And hopefully I'll power the electric with clean energy. Is your product more efficient, all those Thermo PhDs? Have you improved the core idea, or have you improved the user experience? [00:15:32] Vince: Oh, well, for sure. I mean, in general, a heat pump is between 2 and 3x more efficient than burning natural gas for heating. You get more energy out of it than you put in, because it's pulling heat from the outside and dumping it in your house. We have a lot of innovations to make that technology. You see a lot of efficient HVAC technologies in the market that are really hard to get into buildings. So we said it's actually more important to take the worst systems and make those more efficient than it is to get the highest coefficient of performance ever. And so we're really focusing on buildings who have really inefficient systems today that are hard to use, that use a ton of energy. Specifically, a lot of these systems also have window ACs, and our system gives them cooling plus heating. It gives them their window back, which they really like. That's one piece of the other aspects of comfort that we can deliver. And it's just way cheaper to install. [00:16:24] Speaker 1: Andrew, how have you been around for a long time? What's the technical innovation here? [00:16:28] Andy Marsh: So if I take a step back, I disagree with both premises of your questions. The first item is, you know, I worked in wireless huts in 1983 where nothing worked. [00:16:45] Speaker 1: Yeah. [00:16:46] Andy Marsh: And look where wireless is today. And I can tell you it was one of the first huts that was ever deployed by AT&T. So technology takes a while. The second item is, hydrogen fuel cells work. So as we're sitting here in three seconds, we're probably doing 10 hydrogen fuelings across the U.S. at the moment. You know, today, we'll use over 60 tons of liquid hydrogen, which is produced on a daily basis. Some of it's green, some of it's not. The fuel cells operate 24-7. There's 60,000 out there. It's not, you know, it's really how to build out the rest of the infrastructure to support the efforts. And look, the governments here in the states, as well in Europe, are doing a great job. You know, we talked about the Inflation Reduction Act. In the infrastructure bill, there's over $8 billion for building out hydrogen hubs, which will become really the base to build off of. So the technology works. There's lots of companies next to the plug who can make it work. And so it's not something that's this faraway dream. [00:18:00] Speaker 1: It's something that's happening today and now. So would you characterize where your company is at is there's a mature technology that we're going to deploy aggressively, or are you still innovating to make that deploy? [00:18:11] Andy Marsh: Well, you know, we're going to innovate for five or six more generations of products, but, you know, we did a deal with Amazon, you know, which targeting $2.1 billion. We already did $600 billion, with Amazon for fuel cells, and the $2.1 billion more focused on green and hydrogen. They believe it's here today. I believe it's here today. And we'll do close to a billion dollars in revenue. I think that probably says enough. What do you think the key innovation that led to the unlock of deployment is? Well, I think it's been really, if you look at, you know, in fuel cells and electrolyzers, there's an element called an MEA. And, you know, Plugs built the largest MEA factory in the world in Rochester, New York, where nobody builds anything in Rochester, New York. But it is the technology where, you know, how you mix metals on a membrane to create a device and to turn hydrogen to electricity and water, we're exactly the opposite. To take water and electricity and create hydrogen, and I think that MEA is really where the core technology exists. And so much, and I think this is important, so much of the other activities does look like traditional technology. We have 3,000 people, 20% come from the oil and gas industry, because they know how to do big projects. So we're also involved deeply in the transition, not only of the economy for energy, but the economy for jobs. [00:19:43] Speaker 1: Yeah, I think oftentimes my frustration with the climate conversation is, oh, you are inventing things, and we usually talk about policy, or we ought to do it. And then it's the factories that I think are important. [00:19:54] Andy Marsh: Factories are important, and the jobs, real jobs, blue-collar people, is critical for the future. [00:20:01] Speaker 1: See, you thought you were going to fight, and you go, I'm like, Laura. [00:20:04] Laura Zapata: Yeah, so I think sometimes we conflate innovation with technology. I think for us at ClearLoop, the innovation, the big sort of underpinning of the innovation has really been around how do we get this capital stack to fund more solar projects to happen. Our thesis was for every Facebook and Microsoft out there, there's thousands of other companies that should and could be taking a climate action, we want to focus their energy and their investment and their dollars in helping us decarbonize the grid at scale in the places that are forgotten. So I think that's one piece of it. The second piece is, you know, solar PV has been around for quite a bit. We need to deploy more of it. There's obviously more innovation that can happen on, you know, we have all of our projects track. We can do better land management practices with regenerative energy. So there's quite a bit there. But then the final piece of the sort of innovation tech part of what we do is we're looking at emissionality. And emissionality is this concept where you basically take what is the grid emissions, what is it that we are turning off when we turn on a brand new zero carbon, you know, thing, like a solar project. And so we're actually using quite a bit of, we're partnering with a nonprofit called Wattime. And what they do is they use AI to sort of predict what are we turning on and off and what is the actual carbon footprint of, you know, the things that we're cleaning up. So that we have a baseline because that's always been sort of the criticism around carbon offsets is nobody really knows, is it really happening? And I think John Oliver is doing all of us a service by saying, okay, but find out what is it actually doing when you're buying a carbon offset. And if it's actually building a brand new solar project and cleaning up X amount of carbon and we can track it and have that sort of transparency and bring equity into that conversation, then I think we have a winning innovation hub in deploying this, this old-ish technology. [00:22:08] Speaker 6: Laura, you work primarily in states that have Republican leadership. Why has that been your strategy and what kind of pushback do you get on bringing renewable energy there? [00:22:16] Laura Zapata: I think it was less about the Republican political part, my background is in politics. It was more about it was home, so Tennessee is home. I spent a lot of time outside of home and it was an opportunity for me to sort of bring back some of that investment that I saw in Silicon Valley and in the coastal cities and sort of say, okay, this is time for us to re sort of reengage and rewrite the conversation around economic development. And if we're going to talk about this massive planetary problem, then we need to bring it down to just the community people problem. And so when you start talking about economic development and, you know, building real life infrastructure in a community that hasn't seen any investment in many years, then you start having a different conversation less about, you know, what are we going to do about climate change, more about how can this community be part of the solution? Because now all of a sudden Intuit is interested in East Tennessee and Appalachia because they have a carbon commitment. They've invested in this community and then there's a real sort of connection and community conversation that can happen that way. And I think we need to bring those conversations back outside of politics, outside of the politicization, and really start talking about, like, why does it matter to these communities to welcome these kinds of projects. [00:23:42] Speaker 1: You know, when we were backstage, you were talking about regulation, you pointed out that New Jersey has, I think, the first law in the books that will enable wave power in this way. You have a project here in Los Angeles, I think. Do you need -- is it better if you don't have the regulations? There are a lot of entrepreneurs here watching in our histories that have thrived and have been able to build the companies, but you seem to think it's an enabler for you. Why is that? [00:24:07] Speaker 2: Listen, in the energy industry, infrastructure business, you cannot actually do a lot of stuff like build or connect to the grid unless you have regulations. Like which licenses do you need to submit, how do you connect to the electrical grid, what are the requirements from you, that's what I'm calling regulations. Sometimes it takes me six months to build a new wave energy power station, but two years to get the regulation in place. That's not exactly a good way to work, you know, around it. So definitely regulation needs to happen. It is happening. As I said backstage, New Jersey is the first state that actually submitted an official legislation initiative bill in the 29th of June of this year, in 2022, and we hope that other states will follow and do the same thing. In California, we're going the other way around, we first signed an agreement to build a power station at the port of Los Angeles, so we're first putting the power station and then hoping to get regulations. So I really think it shouldn't be that hard, like basically, look, according to the United States Energy Information Administration, I will quote them again, 66% of all United States energy needs can be provided solely by the power of the waves. Why wouldn't you regulate for it? Don't give us money, don't help us at all, but at least give us the path. Like, how do we connect to the grid? What are the quotas? How much can we sell? Which licenses do we need to build? It doesn't make sense that I will spend half a year building and two years licensing. [00:25:30] Speaker 6: Let's maybe ask one more, and then if you have questions, the audience, get ready, we'll take some. You know, Andy, I wanted to ask you, you work on all these commercial technologies, what are the odds that you can bring hydrogen to consumers anytime soon? [00:25:44] Andy Marsh: I think it's a what. When I look at it, it's probably the first place I was on the phone with the CEO of National Grid today, and we were talking about injecting hydrogen in the natural gas pipeline for heating. That's probably, you know, you probably have a mix like 10 to 15% hydrogen. That's probably the closest it's to consumers. I believe the mobility sector is really tied to AI in automatic-guided vehicles, and I think it's for really cities and places, say San Francisco, New York, circa 2035. Now, a lot of that has to do with hydrogen fuel cells help you keep an asset on, moving all the time, and if there's an investment by a third party in that asset, you're going to want it running, and that's where hydrogen fuel cells will be in mobility. So that's, I think, how we're going to impact the consumer. [00:26:39] Speaker 1: All right, I want to ask one lightning round question of all of you before we take questions. It's a decoder plug. It's like a decoder-style question for my show. You guys have hard jobs, right? And I'm curious about the reality of your job. So on a percentage basis, 0 to 100, how much time do you spend running your companies and inventing stuff, and how much time do you spend begging regulators to either get in the way or get out of the way? 0 to 100%. [00:27:05] Speaker 2: Listen, I don't think we have to beg regulators. I think regulators nowadays want to regulate, especially when it's innovative renewable energy sources. [00:27:12] Speaker 1: No, no, this is a lightning round. Percentage. 0 to 100. How much time do you spend on politics, and how much time do you spend running the company? [00:27:19] Speaker 2: Well, I never calculated, to be honest, but I would say 80% running the company, 20% chasing regulators. But again, just because it's a very innovative industry wave energy, so everybody wants to be the first one that will regulate for it, because the first successful wave energy power station gives them a lot of credit, like it's the first in the world. So we did it in Gibraltar, we did it in Israel, and the regulation process was super hard, but when the opening of the power station happens, the regulators stood there like super proud. So we don't talk. So we don't need to convince someone. [00:27:53] Vince: Probably 80% running the company, the other 80% on policy. Wow. Well done. [00:27:59] Speaker ?: 30%. [00:27:59] Andy Marsh: 30% on politics? [00:28:00] Speaker 1: Yeah. [00:28:01] Speaker ?: Yeah. [00:28:01] Andy Marsh: And not really regulation that much. Oh. 30%. Yeah. Laura? [00:28:07] Laura Zapata: I would say 90-10. I think for us, it's winning hearts and minds is that 10%, and it's at the local level. That's where you interconnect. That's where you could get the real opposition of zoning. And so a lot of it is, you know, 90% convincing tech companies to invest in offsetting their carbon footprint. 10% really focus on how do we make sure that these communities are welcoming and want to do it again and tell their neighbors about it. [00:28:35] Speaker 1: Very good. All right. Any questions? I think we have mics for them. [00:28:40] Speaker 7: Thanks. I'm Safar Ash. We run an early stage venture firm in Palo Alto. I want to ask Andrew and maybe others as well if they can talk about hydrolysis producing hydrogen from waste, plastic waste, which will both be obviously useful for energy generation as well as taking some waste from the earth. [00:29:05] Andy Marsh: Sure. I would say that I do have a technology organization that's looking at it. And, you know, I think that we've kind of put a tech level number two at the moment. And, you know, from our perspective, you know, it all really kind of comes down to cost. And, you know, when you think about the cost of green hydrogen without government credits fully loaded in, it's about three hours and 75 cents a kilogram today. And for the audience, that's like equivalent to two gallons of gasoline. But, you know, the cost targets are critical for building this industry. And the ability to scale technologies is really, really important. [00:29:53] Speaker 8: So, you know, that's what we're doing. Yeah, one more. Quick question. Quick question. Sorry. Quick question for Andy and Ina. You were talking about green hydrogen mix with natural gas. I know that New York Power Authority, GE and EFRE, are about to announce some results, I think, on September 19th, that they're testing over Long Island. To me, it looks like that could be promising. It's not going to get us to zero emissions, but reduce it. I'm just curious, what are you guys seeing in your business? Then I've got a question for you. [00:30:20] Andy Marsh: Sure. I'll be quick. So if you look at SNAM, which is one of the biggest gas utilities in Italy, which has eight pipelines that come from Tunisia, they believe their pipelines can handle 100% hydrogen. I think worldwide, there's pretty much acceptance, 20% is the right number. I was on the phone, I mentioned with National Grid this morning, and we were talking about mixing exactly in Long Island as a big opportunity. [00:30:53] Speaker 8: Thank you. Question for you. You talk about regulatory issues. Obviously, we have state regulatory bodies in each state in the US. We've got FERC. Which one's the most challenging or is it all of it combined? [00:31:06] Speaker 2: I think it's the fact that really the United States is built from so many states and each state does a very separate regulation. But on the bright side from past experience, if I'm looking at Europe, for example, we built our first grid-connected power station in Gibraltar. And right after that, Spain and Portugal placed orders. Now we have concession agreements there. It's neighboring countries. And we also signed an agreement recently with Morocco, also a neighboring country to Gibraltar. I think the same kind of positive snowball will happen in the United States. So New Jersey is the first one to submit an actual legislation initiative bill for the inclusion of Wave Energy as part of Governor Murphy's big energy master plan. I think that as soon as they see that it's so good and it's been actually implemented there and in California at the same time, the regulation will kind of be copied. You know, people are kind of sometimes less creative in politics. They see when it's working in one place and they just, you know, copy the same legislation. So I think the more states will start legislating, the more will happen. Same happened in solar and wind industry. So we have a good example. [00:32:08] Speaker 1: Any other questions? The red light's flanking on me, so I've got to go before care kills us. Thank you so much. This was really wonderful. Thank you. [00:32:15] Speaker 8: Thank you. [00:32:22] Speaker ?: Thank you.