Alibi Broken Murder Trial Witness Testimony Revealed

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Court! Good morning. [00:00:05] Speaker 2: Call the Diet, His Majesty's advocate against Robert O'Brien, Andrew Kelly and Donna Marie Brand. [00:00:11] Speaker 3: The fact that there is more than one accused is incredibly difficult for a jury. There needs to be evidence that the whole group participated and it's 15 members of the public who are trying to separate that out. [00:00:25] Speaker 4: Caroline Glachan was 14 years old when she died. Her body was found in the River Levin. She had serious head injuries. [00:00:33] Speaker 5: She was not on the screen. Somebody must know something. [00:00:39] Speaker 6: At post-mortem examination, her lungs showed classical features of drowning. [00:00:45] Speaker 7: Caroline Glachan was alive when she went into the water. They all left her. Robbie O'Brien has seen Donna Brand as well as Caroline, is that correct? Yes. What was Donna's reaction? She was presently happy and she was going to batter her. Donna was not happy and she was going to batter her. [00:01:04] Speaker 3: There's really very little evidence implicating any of them except the evidence of the wee boy. [00:01:10] Speaker 7: This case is unusual in the sense that I suggest that a young boy was present when the murder was committed. [00:01:19] Speaker 8: There's a danger in just accepting what a four-and-a-half-year-old says. Andy flung boulders at her. [00:01:29] Speaker 3: I think this is a skittle there. [00:01:44] Speaker 9: He's not making an awful lot of sense, is he? No. [00:01:47] Speaker 10: So I want to ask you about somebody else altogether, somebody called George Graham. And George Graham is somebody who spoke to the police on at least three occasions. Yes. The police had recovered information which pointed the finger towards another person, not the three accused. [00:02:06] Speaker 5: I really don't know what the outcome will be. And at this stage, yeah, I'm scared. Because I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. [00:02:15] Speaker ?: I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. [00:02:51] Speaker 11: I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. [00:02:53] Speaker ?: I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. [00:02:57] Speaker 7: I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. [00:03:15] Speaker ?: I don't know if it's coming. [00:03:15] Speaker 10: I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. [00:03:31] Speaker 7: I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. [00:03:46] Speaker ?: I don't know if it's coming. [00:03:47] Speaker 7: I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. I don't know if it's coming. [00:04:03] Speaker 12: I don't know if it's coming. [00:04:14] Speaker 7: 23 you can see two windows at the top above. Do you recognise that as your apartment? Yes. Yes. Am I right in saying the police spoke to you back in 1996? Yes. How did that come about? [00:04:28] Speaker 12: Came to the front door. Just came to the door. [00:04:31] Speaker 7: Right, OK. And you gave a statement at that time? [00:04:33] Speaker 12: Yes. [00:04:34] Speaker 7: Yeah. Did you expect them to come back and see you? [00:04:37] Speaker 12: Yes. [00:04:38] Speaker 7: Yeah. Did they ever do that? [00:04:40] Speaker 12: Years later, yeah. [00:04:41] Speaker 7: Years later? [00:04:42] Speaker ?: Yeah. [00:04:43] Speaker 13: For a number of years, it didn't look as if there was going to be some sort of significant breakthrough. The forensic work was exhausted and I didn't have anything. The reinvestigation, it was really going to have to come back down to reviewing the basics. So what we wanted to do was go back, trace everybody that lived in Allen Crescent at that time and go and speak to them. So this is Allen Crescent. This is where Robbie and Donna, Andrew Kelly, were babysitting young Archie and Jamie. The alibi given was that they never ever left the 12 Allen Crescent and they maintained they were there all night. And maintained that, you know, for 20 odd years. [00:05:40] Speaker 14: Tonight a house in Renton is under police guard minutes from where Caroline's body was found. [00:05:46] Speaker 13: And we had to go back to the hospital. And that first original inquiry. Linda, she'd been visited during door to door. I don't think the original inquiry team asked the kind of pertinent questions. When we did the reinvestigation, we obviously were able to elicit more information. It was a real turning point and certainly helped us to then really focus in on the occupants that had been in 12 Allen Crescent that night. [00:06:13] Speaker 7: Now, on Saturday the 24th of August 1996, were you at home with your daughter? Yes. How old would she be in 1996? Eh, ten. Ten. Okay. Later on in the evening, did you see someone going into 12 Allen Crescent? [00:06:30] Speaker 12: I knew Sarah Jane. Other ones I wasn't sure of their names, I just kind of knew them to see. One of the boys was Sarah Jane's boyfriend at the time. Right. I knew him as Andy. Andy. Yeah. [00:06:42] Speaker 7: Did you realise that Sarah Jane and her boyfriend were the babysitters? [00:06:45] Speaker 12: Yes. [00:06:46] Speaker 7: Now, around about midnight, was there a film that you wanted to watch? [00:06:50] Speaker 12: Yeah. I was waiting for a film to start. I heard the voices and everybody leaving and Sarah Jane was bumping the buggy down to come out. Right. I went to the window because I thought it was a bit late for her to be taking the baby out in the buggy. [00:07:05] Speaker 7: What did you see? [00:07:07] Speaker 12: Archie was at the side of the buggy and Sarah Jane's boyfriend was beside her. And the other two, a male and a female, were in front of her. [00:07:18] Speaker 7: What direction did they go? [00:07:21] Speaker 12: Down the Crescent, out the street, towards the main road. And then I settled down to watch the film. [00:07:28] Speaker 7: What was the next thing that happened? [00:07:30] Speaker 12: I heard Sarah Jane's voice as if they were in the street. [00:07:33] Speaker 7: Had your film started? Yeah. Yeah. Sometime after that. [00:07:37] Speaker 12: Yeah. And then I heard the gate opening of somebody coming in the gate. By the time I went to the window, I could see them going back in. The same people who left the house coming back to the house. [00:07:47] Speaker 7: Was this a loud commotion? [00:07:49] Speaker 12: Yes. My daughter, she had got up. She was a bit frightened. She was like, "What's the noises?" And I was like, "It's okay, just go back to bed." And then I was like, "It's okay." [00:07:57] Speaker 7: Were you alarmed by this? Yeah. [00:08:02] Speaker 15: What was it? Loud voices shouting. Also, like, someone was upset. Like, if you were to start to cry and you were trying to catch your breath. Yeah. Like, that kind of noise. I don't want to say, like, a wailing, but someone was distressed. Someone was distressed? [00:08:17] Speaker 7: Yeah. [00:08:18] Speaker 12: I could hear another female, not Sarah Jane, who was upset. Like, kind of wailing, crying. Did you hear anything said? Sarah Jane, she was shouting at a male because she was shouting, "You're a dick, you're a prick." Calling them names, saying it was out of order. That was a set-up. That wasn't meant to happen or that wasn't what was to happen. [00:08:44] Speaker 15: They were shouting something about, like, the wains. The wains? The wains. And that came from Sarah Jane because I recognised her voice straight away. And it wasn't supposed to happen like that. [00:08:56] Speaker 7: It wasn't supposed to happen like that? Yeah. Did you recognise that voice? Again, Sarah Jane. Sarah Jane. [00:09:05] Speaker 12: It went really quiet after that. [00:09:09] Speaker 16: All right. Thank you. Mr. Duthian, cross-examination. [00:09:15] Speaker 10: This trial has given rise to a number of witnesses who have changed their evidence in quite a noticeable way. So, essentially, you're questioning the credibility and reliability of individual witnesses, but the Crown case in general. You've been explaining how you saw four people leaving the house. Yeah. [00:09:40] Speaker 12: I saw them leave, yes. [00:09:42] Speaker 10: Can I ask you to have a look at a document then, please? It's headed Strathclyde, please, witness statement. So, it's just before midnight I was waiting for the film to start when I heard a commotion downstairs. About five minutes later, the door opened and closed, and I thought someone left, but I did not look out. [00:10:05] Speaker 12: Yep. [00:10:06] Speaker 10: So, I don't know, what am I meant to think, but more appropriately, what are the ladies and gentlemen meant to think? [00:10:11] Speaker 12: I wouldn't say it unless I'd seen it. [00:10:14] Speaker ?: Hmm. [00:10:15] Speaker 10: Hmm. That's what I'm really struggling with myself. [00:10:20] Speaker 9: The purpose often in defence counsel is to test a witness's evidence and to really give the jury reasons why they shouldn't simply accept the Crown case. You've spoken to your mum about this case, haven't you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that was one of the expressions your mum used in her evidence, that she heard a female wailing and crying. That would be a coincidence, wouldn't it? No. [00:10:49] Speaker 15: It wouldn't be a coincidence if it was what we both heard. [00:10:52] Speaker 9: In fact, it might be a double coincidence, the coincidence being that neither of you used that phrase in 1996. [00:11:00] Speaker 15: Well, as a ten-year-old, a wailing wouldn't be a word that I would use. [00:11:04] Speaker 9: I'm not suggesting that you're lying today, but what I'm suggesting is the passage of time, hearing people speaking about things. All these things have impacted on your memory and you've simply got it wrong, haven't you? No. [00:11:19] Speaker 15: I remember. That night haunts me. And I don't forget something like that. [00:11:26] Speaker 9: OK. Thank you. [00:11:31] Speaker 16: Any re-examination? No. [00:11:33] Speaker 7: It's obvious that when this crime was first being investigated, the statements being taken at that time were not of the detail that one might expect. When the police saw you back in 1996, were they conducting door-to-door inquiries? [00:11:50] Speaker 12: That's what they said at the time, yes. [00:11:52] Speaker 7: Did the policemen spend a long time with you on that occasion? No. In 2020, did you express surprise to the police that the police had never been in touch with you since that first statement? [00:12:04] Speaker 12: Yes. [00:12:05] Speaker 7: Have you come here today to tell lies? No. Have you committed perjury in this murder trial? [00:12:11] Speaker 12: No. [00:12:13] Speaker 7: Thank you. That's your evidence finished. You're free to go. In order to establish murder, we have to prove that the accused were all part of a plan to attack Caroline Glackin. There is a witness who was walking close to the river at around the time when I suggest the murder was committed, at a time the accused were together as a group. I'd like to ask you about Saturday the 24th of August 1996. In the evening that day, what were you doing? We ate up with our friends. Just kind of messed about. Did the messing about take you to near the river Leaven? Yeah. What time would you say it would be by the time you got to the path at the river Leaven? Close at the 12:15, maybe. It was dark anyway, I know that. It was dark? Yeah. Walking past, did you hear anything? Yeah, I heard a scream. [00:13:12] Speaker ?: Heard a scream? [00:13:12] Speaker 7: Yeah. Could you tell if it was a male or female? It was a female. Were you able to determine from which direction it came? Yeah, we knew it came from the river side. It came from the river side? Yeah. Was anything said? Somebody tried to shout and it sounded to me at the time. I didnae say it or I didnae day it. Somebody shouted, "I didnae say it" or "I didnae day it." Yeah, that's just what I picked up for the noise. Yes. Was that a male or a female voice? It sounded female. There was a topic of contention between Caroline and Robbie and Donna. I didnae say that or I didnae day that. It may have been Caroline and that might suggest that comment was made in the context of a confrontation of some kind rather than a stranger attacking Caroline at the time. So that fits in to the Crown theory of what happened. [00:14:14] Speaker 16: Cross-examination, Mr. Ross. Nothing, Lord, thank you. [00:14:18] Speaker 3: There was no point in any cross-examination because even if the jury did accept that Donna Brand had been there, there was no real evidence that Donna Brand made a finger on the deceased. By all means punish the person who did the bad thing, but don't punish other people just because they weren't there. [00:14:39] Speaker 5: They had in mind what they were going to do. I mean, not one of them stopped it. They all were responsible. [00:14:50] Speaker 16: Members of the jury, we will adjourn there until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. [00:14:58] Speaker 5: The court case, it's been a long time coming, 20 odd years. Sometimes I would think, over the years, maybe they're just not going to get who did it. [00:15:13] Speaker 17: Police were continuing their search of the murder scene as detectives revealed there had been a disappointing response to police for information about the killing. [00:15:22] Speaker 5: Over the years, the police, I feel they did what they could at the time with what they had at the time. People didn't want to talk to the police. And I found that hard to sit back. I do find myself looking at people and thinking, do you know something or are you hiding something, you know? And going to the morgue to see her was really hard. I just saw her face. But she lay in that morgue for six months. Because they couldn't bury her because of the circumstances of the investigation. There's no funeral. There's no way anybody can gradually move on. So to me, she was lying in a morgue. And she was lying in a morgue. And that really didn't sit too well, as you can imagine. [00:16:37] Speaker 18: Court! [00:16:41] Speaker 16: Morning. Yes. [00:16:47] Speaker 7: The next witness is Donna Talbot. The conduct of an accused in the aftermath of a murder can be highly revealing. In this case, there is evidence that two girls encountered Robbie O'Brien. And on the surface, there's an admission of guilt. Now that's a very powerful piece of evidence if the jury accept it. Because it would give confidence to the circumstantial case which I have outlined. In 1996, you would be at 15, would that be right? [00:17:21] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:17:22] Speaker 7: Could we put the computer on, please? You'll see two photographs. [00:17:26] Speaker ?: How did you know Caroline? [00:17:28] Speaker 19: She was my best friend for about two years. Sorry. [00:17:33] Speaker ?: It's all right. [00:17:33] Speaker 7: Was there an occasion when you met up with some friends and found yourself on the towpath of the River Leaven after the body had been found? [00:17:51] Speaker 19: That was roughly a week after we just buried Caroline. We went down to lay flowers. [00:18:05] Speaker 18: Hundreds of mourners saw the murdered Dunbarton schoolgirl Caroline Glachan finally buried today. Six months after her brutal death. [00:18:18] Speaker 14: But the fact six months on there's been no arrest was inevitably not far from people's minds at a packed funeral in St Ronan's Chapel, Bond Hill. [00:18:26] Speaker 20: Everybody's shattered. Our family and our pals and all that. Can't explain how everybody's feeling. There's no words to say it. [00:18:38] Speaker 21: Everybody feels the same. There should have been somebody brought to justice. We all still hope, but there just doesn't seem to be any sighting. [00:18:47] Speaker 7: Just tell us what happened as you walked along the towpath. [00:18:51] Speaker 19: In the middle of the bridge, Julie wanted to stop to write her name on the bridge. I wasn't comfy when down there after what had happened to Caroline. So I was kind of a tricky rusher. And we heard rustling in the bushes at the renting side. Julie was shouting, "I think she could see a person's trainers." And she shouted, "Is that you, Robbie?" The next minute, he took a couple of steps out. So he could see it was Robert or Brian. And he had a baseball bat. Julie then shouted, "Rober, did you hit me, Caroline, with that?" Then he hit the bat twice off of the ground. [00:19:46] Speaker ?: And said, "Aye, I fucking did." "Aye, I fucking did." "Aye, I fucking did?" "Aye, I fucking did." "Aye, I fucking did." "Aye, I fucking did." [00:19:55] Speaker 19: "All right." "Thank you." "The community had been living with an unsolved murder for 27 years." "And perhaps they decided, 'We don't want to live with the uncertainty of this. We can change the narrative of this." "We can change the narrative of the world." "We can change the narrative of the world." "We can change the narrative of the world." [00:20:04] Speaker 7: "We can change the narrative of the world." "We can change the narrative of the world." [00:20:06] Speaker ?: "We can change the narrative of the world." "We can change the narrative of the world." "We can change the narrative of the world." [00:20:09] Speaker 7: "We can change the narrative of the world." "We can change the narrative of the world." [00:20:11] Speaker ?: "We can change the narrative of the world." "We can change the narrative of the world." [00:20:13] Speaker 10: "We can change the narrative of the world." "We can change the narrative of the world." "He had been living with an unsolved murder for 27 years." "And perhaps they decided, 'We don't want to live with the uncertainty of this. We can change the narrative.'" "How long did you wait before you decided to tell the police about that?" [00:20:36] Speaker 19: "A long time. I was scared to report it." [00:20:41] Speaker 10: "Mm. So 24 years you waited." "Is that right?" [00:20:49] Speaker 19: "Yeah." [00:20:51] Speaker 10: "So what is the reason for keeping it to yourself for 24 years?" [00:20:56] Speaker 19: "Because Julie had reported it." [00:21:00] Speaker 10: "When?" [00:21:01] Speaker 19: "Straight after it happened. The next day, I think it was." [00:21:06] Speaker 7: "Did you know someone called Robbie O'Brien?" "Yes." "And was he someone you would recognise if you saw him?" "Yes." "Would you look round the court and tell me if you see him?" "And if you do, point to him, please." "Could you just describe what the person's wearing?" "A green jumper." "A green jumper." "Do you recall an occasion when you were with Donna Talbot and some friends when you were together on the towpath in the River Leaven? Do you remember that?" "I don't recall." "Do you remember being spoken to by the police about this?" [00:21:41] Speaker 22: "Basically, I have read my statement and I cannot remember the incident." [00:21:49] Speaker 7: "I'd like to look at a statement." "Turn to page five." "Does it say this?" "A Saturday night along the towpath." "I shouted, 'Who is it?'" "I then saw Robbie O'Brien walk out from under the bridge." "I could see Robbie was carrying a baseball bat." "I shouted to Robbie, 'Is that the bat you hit Caroline with?'" "Does it go on?" "He said, 'aye, A-Y-E, it is," unquote." "Is that what it says in the statement?" [00:22:25] Speaker 22: "Yes." [00:22:26] Speaker 7: "Did you say that to the police?" [00:22:27] Speaker 22: "I would have done, yes." [00:22:29] Speaker 7: "Was that the truth?" [00:22:30] Speaker 22: "It would have been, yes." [00:22:33] Speaker ?: "All right, thank you." [00:22:36] Speaker 16: "Mr Dugood, cross-examination." [00:22:39] Speaker 10: "Yes, thank you." "Miss O'Sullivan, I don't know how this is going to work," "because you don't have any memory of even the events that have been read out to you." "Is that right?" "Correct." "All right, so let me ask a few general questions then." "You were a heroin addict in 1996." "Correct." "You're obviously not a heroin addict any more then." [00:23:02] Speaker 22: "No, I'm 23 years clean." [00:23:04] Speaker 10: "Is it fair to say there was a bit of bad feeling in the community towards Robert O'Brien?" "Possibly, yeah." "Six months had gone by after Caroline's murder, nobody had been arrested or charged for it." "Is that your understanding?" [00:23:27] Speaker 22: "Well, that's a fact, is it not? Nobody was arrested for it." [00:23:31] Speaker 10: "Yep." "So did you get in touch with Robert O'Brien to arrange to meet him?" "No." "Down at the towpath?" "No." "What I'm suggesting to you is that you made an arrangement to meet him to set him up, as it were." "No." "You know that he got a bit of a doing from some people." [00:23:52] Speaker 22: "I would never have made an arrangement to meet Robbie O'Brien." "He was not a friend." "He was just an associate that I knew that took drugs the same as me." "We would, there was no way that would have happened." [00:24:06] Speaker 10: "So you do have a memory then?" [00:24:08] Speaker 22: "You're trying to obviously put words into my mouth. I cannot recall the incident." "I've reported it at the time and it would have been the truth." "And we were, we were angry." "Our friend had just been murdered and there was main suspects in the area." [00:24:23] Speaker 10: "What I'm suggesting to you is that it wasn't an arrangement to see him." "It was an arrangement to assault him." "Do you understand?" [00:24:34] Speaker 22: "Of course I understand." "We, we might have hated him at the time, but we weren't stupid." "There was, there was justice needed done, not vengeance." [00:24:44] Speaker 10: "That's a fair enough comment." "Yeah, it is." "23 years later." [00:24:48] Speaker 22: "Yeah, it is because he came from quite a notorious family also." "So we wouldn't have been going anywhere near him." [00:24:54] Speaker 10: "Well, your observation is you want justice, but I'm suggesting..." [00:24:57] Speaker 22: "Yeah, we want justice through the, the courts, through the, the police system." "It's not our responsibility to take justice into our own hands and go out and harm somebody." "If that was the case, it would have been probably done a long time ago." "It's not." "People are waiting for justice to be done for Caroline." [00:25:18] Speaker 16: "Thank you." "Thank you, Mr Renucci. Cross examination." "No, thank you, Lord." "Mr Ross." "Nothing more." [00:25:27] Speaker 7: "Yes, advocate, deputy." "With that, my lord, I close the crown case." [00:25:36] Speaker 16: "We'll adjourn until quarter past ten tomorrow morning." [00:25:40] Speaker 5: "It's hard to sit there and listen. Personally, myself, I'm feeling really quite mentally exhausted." "And folks say, 'Times I heal her, times not I heal her." "There's an emptiness there. It's never going to be filled. Ever." "And that was my whole reason for doing television programmes, press conferences." "Even if it didn't come to anything, it helped me feel I was doing something to help her." "As her mother, I was doing something concrete, something that I was helping." "Because what else can I do?" "To be honest, I just would like it all to be done." "But I feel I have to be there every day." "And I have to look them in the face." [00:26:58] Speaker ?: "Court!" [00:27:11] Speaker 10: "To be clear about it, giving or not giving evidence is always going to be the accused decision." "And you as the lawyers are just advising them to take that decision." [00:27:22] Speaker 3: "There's an argument for the accused not giving evidence because they can be cross-examined by an experienced lawyer." "And that's an uncomfortable situation for any person to be in." [00:27:37] Speaker 16: "Mr Duguid, the first accused, he likes to give evidence on his own behalf." [00:27:43] Speaker ?: "Thank you." [00:27:44] Speaker 16: "Mr O'Brien, if you come into the witness box then, please." [00:27:47] Speaker 3: "If you come about as shifty, evasive, cheeky, aggressive, any of those things, then the jury might sort of take against you." [00:27:59] Speaker 16: "Raise your right hand, please, and repeat after me. I swear by Almighty God." "I swear by Almighty God." "That I will tell the truth." "That I will tell the truth." "The whole truth." "The whole truth." "And nothing but the truth." "And nothing but the truth." [00:28:13] Speaker 23: "My Lord, is it okay if I say something before we start?" [00:28:15] Speaker 16: "No, no, no, it's not. You just got to answer the questions, Mr O'Brien." [00:28:21] Speaker 10: "Mr O'Brien, you're Robert O'Brien, is that correct?" "Yes." "Yes." "And in August 1996, you had just turned 18." "Yes." "Is that right?" "Yes." "Did you start a relationship with Caroline Glackin?" "Yes." "Okay, how long before her death, do you think?" [00:28:38] Speaker 23: "That month and a half, maybe." [00:28:40] Speaker 10: "And when I say a relationship, what was the nature of your relationship with her?" [00:28:44] Speaker 23: "Everybody was sleeping with one another." [00:28:46] Speaker 10: "And where did that happen?" [00:28:48] Speaker 23: "My auntie Dorothy's house said, we actually done it up closes and things like that anywhere we could find basically." "We was like friends with benefits." "She knew I was in a relationship, she'd tell me she was in a relationship." "Did you have any arrangement to see her on Saturday night?" [00:29:09] Speaker 10: "No, I did not." "So we're talking about Saturday the 24th of August." "Yes." "Do you understand?" "Yes." "Did you know you were going to stay at Allen Crescent?" [00:29:18] Speaker 23: "Well, I think we knew Sarah Jane and Andy were babysitting, but it was basically at the last minute we decided to stay there." [00:29:25] Speaker 10: "Okay, so we as yourself and Donna, is that right?" "Yes." "For the duration of the night, what did you do in the house?" [00:29:33] Speaker 23: "I can remember Donna bathing the wains cause he had toyed hisself and then me and Donna went in the room, done what we were doing and then we got up and Andy and Sarah Jane ended up leaving and going into the room and we stayed in the living room on the couch." "Were there any arguments going on?" "Sarah Jane and Andy used to argue a lot." "Did the carpet get wet?" "Yes." "It was a pint of water and I must have kicked it out about three, maybe four times." [00:30:07] Speaker 10: "Did you leave the house that night?" "No, I did not." "Now you will have heard the evidence in this case." "Yes." "And certainly the evidence from Caroline Glacken's best friend." "Mm-hmm." "About how she was going to meet you." "Yes." "Do you understand?" "Mm-hmm." "Did you see her later that night?" [00:30:25] Speaker 23: "No." [00:30:26] Speaker 10: "Did you see her down at the river?" "No, I did not." "Did you kill her?" "No, I did not." "Thank you. [00:30:32] Speaker 16: "Thank you, advocate, deputy, class examination." [00:30:37] Speaker 7: "Essentially my task is to undermine his evidence and to illustrate to the jury that he should not be relied upon." "But if the jury believe him when he says he was not present at the time Caroline died, then they will acquit him." "Mr O'Brien, you were 18 when you went out with Caroline Glacken, who was 14, is that correct?" [00:31:08] Speaker 23: "Yes." [00:31:09] Speaker ?: "Yes." [00:31:10] Speaker 7: "You would realize, Mr O'Brien, as an 18-year-old that it really wasn't appropriate for you to go out with a 14-year-old schoolgirl?" "You would realize that, yes?" "But back then I didn't have the best of teachers myself." "Could you answer my question? You would realize it was not appropriate for you to go out with a 14-year-old schoolgirl?" [00:31:30] Speaker 23: "At first that I didn't know she was 14-year-old when we first met." "But you did know later." "Yes, I did know later, yes." [00:31:38] Speaker 7: "So you knew she was 14 when you had sex with her, yes?" "Yes." [00:31:42] Speaker 23: "And you knew you would know that was wholly inappropriate, yes?" "Well, back then, as I say, I was not fully developed back then myself, so I was not thinking like that." "Now, when I got a bit older and thought about it, yes." "Totally." [00:32:00] Speaker 7: "Would you agree you were a controlling bully towards Caroline?" "No, I was not." "Because you struck her?" "No, I did not." "You hit her?" "No, I did not." "And you were going out with Donna at the time?" "Yes." "So you were seeing two girls at once?" "I was seeing about five." "You were seeing five girls at once?" "Maybe, aye." "And was that a great boost to your ego?" "No, really, no." "Was Donna jealous of you going out with other girls?" "I don't know, the subject was never approached." "Now, in the apartment where you were with Donna, Sarah-Jane and Andy, just tell us again about the pint tumblers getting kicked over." [00:32:44] Speaker 23: "Well, when you have a drink, you kind of hit a druth with a dry mouth." "So, I filled a tumbler with water to get drinks of it." "Took a drink, poured it down, spilt it." "I must have hit it three or four times." "You knocked it over three or four times?" [00:33:01] Speaker 7: "Yes." "The same pint tumbler?" "Yes." "Did you not learn from the first occasion to watch out for it?" "Obviously not." "Were your joggers damp?" "No, they were not." "Could you turn to page 214, please?" "So, that's the transcript you have." "You were asked why would Archie say you were soaking?" "And you answered, 'I don't know, maybe the bottom of my joggers were wet but not soaking.'" "Did you say that?" "Maybe it could have been wet when we knocked over the water." "Your trousers were wet because you'd been at the River Leaven." "No, I was." "No, I was not." "Inflicting a brutal attack on Caroline Glackin." "Is that not true?" "No, yes, it's not true." "Because that's what you did." "You went down to the Leaven to meet Caroline with your companions, didn't you?" "No, I did not." "What was the argument about?" [00:33:52] Speaker 23: "There was never any argument." "I don't know what argument you're talking about." [00:33:56] Speaker 7: "Did Caroline say anything at the Leaven?" "We didn't see Caroline at the Leaven, we weren't at the Leaven." "Why was it necessary to inflict such awful violence on Caroline Glackin?" [00:34:06] Speaker 23: "I did not do any violence to Caroline Glackin." "Why was she left face down in the water?" "I have not got a clue." [00:34:17] Speaker 16: "Thank you." "Thank you, Mr O'Brien. Just go back into the dock, please." [00:34:25] Speaker 5: "I feel physically sick looking at him, and he is arrogant." "He thinks a lot of himself." "And I think that was probably why he went up and gave evidence, because it's quite a risky thing to do." "And I think it was just his arrogance." "And to hear Robbie O'Brien, to admit that she was a friend with benefits, that's disgusting. That's absolutely disgusting. That took me all my time to keep us safe." "And he said he wasn't developed. I mean, what does that mean? You still know you're 18 and you're not supposed to have sex with a 14 year old." "Caroline looked every bit hurt at her age, 14. And acted even less than 14. But that's hard to listen to, and no being able to say to him, 'How dare you?' And I hope the jury could see him for what he is." [00:35:34] Speaker ?: "Mr Duguid, your next witness is Dr Kirsty Scott." [00:35:35] Speaker 10: "Dr Scott had been engaged by the prosecution to report on water staining on a carpet and some clothing." "Immediately you're thinking, 'Well, why would the prosecution not be running with that evidence?' But it wasn't a piece of evidence that was going to be entirely favourable to the prosecution's case." "That report is no longer part of the Crown case, but we have to disclose that information to the defence, which we did." "Dr Scott, your expertise is in analysing diatoms." [00:36:20] Speaker 24: "Yes. Diatoms are microscopic algae that we typically find in water bodies. So we can find them in lakes and in rivers and in coastlines." [00:36:31] Speaker 10: "Are there diatoms in tap water?" [00:36:33] Speaker 24: "Typically in the UK, we don't find diatoms in tap water." [00:36:37] Speaker 10: "In 2020, you were contacted by the Major Crime Investigation Unit of Police Scotland." [00:36:45] Speaker 24: "Yes." [00:36:46] Speaker 10: "And I think on the back of that, you produced a report." "It states, 'I was initially requested to analyse household carpet samples and the victims' submerged clothing, to determine whether diatoms were present in either examples." "Is that correct?" "Yes." "Yes. Nothing to suggest that there was any fresh water link with that carpet." "It was a further request to analyse additional footwear and clothing items retrieved from each of the four suspects in 1996." [00:37:38] Speaker 24: "No diatoms were identified in any of the samples examined." [00:37:43] Speaker 10: "So no diatoms or other fresh water indicators were identified throughout?" [00:37:48] Speaker 24: "That is correct." [00:37:53] Speaker 7: "Thank you very much." "The soaking patch in the carpet could be very significant in this case." "I could see a powerful argument being made to the jury." [00:38:05] Speaker 16: "Advocate Deputy." [00:38:07] Speaker 7: "I have to deal with this because it could be perceived as a serious weakness in the Crown case and a significant advantage for the defence." "Dr Scott, the victim, who we know as Caroline Glachan, diatoms were found in abundance on her clothing, is that correct?" "It is, yes." "Now, we have heard evidence that would suggest that she was immersed in the water for a period of about 16 hours." "But could it be the case that you could step into the water and out again and not collect diatoms?" "I suppose it's possible." "You told us about the carpet and you didn't find any diatoms present on the areas that you sampled." [00:38:49] Speaker 24: "Yes, based on my assessment of that carpet, I could exclude it from having any diatoms on it that might link it to the River Leaven." [00:38:58] Speaker 7: "Well, you say 'exclude', are you not really just saying you found no link with fresh water?" [00:39:05] Speaker 24: "Yes, that's appropriate, yes." [00:39:07] Speaker 7: "So, in other words, you found no link with fresh water, but that does not mean that it was not river water, would that be correct?" [00:39:17] Speaker 24: "Yes." [00:39:19] Speaker 7: "Alright, thank you very much." "I felt there was some importance in that for the jury, because all she can really say is that diatoms were not present." "That does not necessarily mean that this was not River Leaven water." [00:39:35] Speaker ?: "Yes, Mr Duguid." [00:39:36] Speaker 10: "If I could call the witness Caroline Walker on the defence list." "Caroline Walker." "As far as Mr O'Brien is concerned, he maintains he wasn't at the location when the crime was committed, and that another person was or is a suspect." "In 1996, and I'm asking about Saturday, the 24th of August 1996, were you in your partner's car?" "Yes." "Did the police come to ask you about what you were doing that particular night?" [00:40:16] Speaker 11: "Yeah, I think what had happened was his car was seen on sort of CCTV." [00:40:22] Speaker 10: "And what was the information that you gave them?" [00:40:25] Speaker 11: "Well, when it had came out, and obviously it said that there were two chaps had ran up Bank Street and passed the Kittendary, I happened to know who they were." [00:40:34] Speaker 10: "Were they running in a direction away from the River Leaven and the Blackbridge as well?" "Can you be exact about the time when you observed this or not?" [00:40:45] Speaker 11: "It was ten to one in the morning." [00:40:48] Speaker 10: "So, who were they?" [00:40:52] Speaker 11: "One was George Graham, and I thought maybe he's been up to no good." [00:40:57] Speaker 10: "And do you know who the other one was?" "I don't know his name." [00:41:01] Speaker 7: "George Graham was someone that Caroline knew, and it's undoubted that he was out and about that night, and may well have been up to no good." "But I suggest not for the purpose of murder." [00:41:13] Speaker 10: "The police had recovered information from other witnesses who could explain how he could have been involved." [00:41:22] Speaker 7: "The defence do not have to prove that George Graham was responsible. All they need to do is cause a reasonable doubt on the Crown case." [00:41:30] Speaker 10: "Two of the witnesses are now deceased, but their evidence will be admissible through police officers reading out their statements." "So, what I want you to do is to read out what is recorded on this young girl's behalf." [00:41:45] Speaker 25: "I'm sixteen years old and I've been using heroin for about three years. George Graham is my cousin. It was just the two of us in the house. We were watching the telly, tooting smack. We were in the front room just talking, and then George brought up the subject of Caroline. He said, 'Who do you think it was that done it hen?'" "I said, 'Put it this way George, near enough the whole of the Vale and half of Dumbarton think it was you that done it." He then paused for a couple of seconds. Then he looked me straight in the eye and said quote, 'But it was me' close quote. [00:42:25] Speaker 10: "The incrimination evidence, if it goes as far as presenting a reasonable doubt in the identification of Mr. O'Brien as the perpetrator of the murder, then that's the purpose it's intended to serve." So, I want you to read this document to the ladies and gentlemen here. [00:42:47] Speaker 26: The statement is about the murder of Caroline Glacken. "Around Christmas 1996, George came round to my house. We started talking and George said he had been in for questioning again. I said to him, 'How many times is that you have been in?' And he said, 'Four.' And I then asked him outright straight to his face, 'George, did you kill that Wayne?' He turned and looked at me and said, 'What do you think I killed her Auntie Mary?' And I said, 'I didn't know, did he?' He said, 'Aye, but it wasn't meant to happen.' He told me that he had hit her with a baseball bat, with nails in it, held her head under the water. He told me the name of the other guy that was there, but I can't remember it. I am not lying. When George told me this, I said he was a fucking nutter. And I threw him out of the house. I have not discussed the mother with him since. Thank you very much. [00:43:52] Speaker 10: That is the conclusion of the case for the first accused. [00:43:56] Speaker 7: Thank you. I can well understand why the defence advanced this line of defence, but there are some issues with all of these strands of evidence in terms of reliability. One witness talked about George Graham using a bat with nails in it. Well, there's no injuries that would support that. So my approach to this is to point to the positive case that I have and invite the jury to believe that and disregard the evidence which tends to implicate George Graham. [00:44:27] Speaker 16: Mr. Ranucci, do you need time to consider your position? [00:44:30] Speaker 9: I don't, my lord. I can advise the court now. I do not propose to read any evidence on behalf of Andrew Kelly. [00:44:36] Speaker 16: And Mr Ross, the same question. [00:44:39] Speaker 3: My lord, I have taken the decision not to read evidence on behalf of Donna Bree Brandt. [00:44:45] Speaker 16: I will now adjourn until Monday morning at 10 o'clock. [00:44:51] Speaker 9: Whether or not an individual accused gives evidence in any trial, it very much depends on how the evidence has come out, how strong or how weak the Crown case is. [00:45:02] Speaker 11: Lord! [00:45:06] Speaker 3: There are situations where it doesn't really make any sense and this is one of them because unless the accused has something to add to the account which she gave in 1996, then it makes no sense to get involved in it. [00:45:21] Speaker 7: I think the Crown case is really quite solid when it's looked at in its entirety and invite the jury to convict all three accused of murder. Thank you, advocate, deputy. [00:45:52] Speaker ?: May it please the court. [00:45:53] Speaker 16: There is one charge before you. [00:46:11] Speaker 7: That is the charge of murder. Murder can be committed in one of two ways. That is the wickedly intentional killing, but murder can also be committed where the person displays such a wicked recklessness as to display a disregard for whether the victim lived or died. Now I don't suggest that the three accused plotted to murder Caroline Glackin, but I do suggest there may have been a limited plan for a simple assault which escalated to a murderous one and that all three accused participated in that. You have to be prepared to accept that. [00:46:52] Speaker 10: Ladies and gentlemen, this is about whether the prosecution has proved its case against Robert O'Brien. He might have been a drug taker and somebody who was morally terrible with the women he associated with. All of that is conceded. [00:47:13] Speaker 7: The evidence of violence by Robert O'Brien towards Caroline gives you an inkling into the nature of this relationship. [00:47:22] Speaker 10: But this is a case where there is an incrimination of George Graham. He was out that night. He was running with another male. He was running from the direction of the bridge. Do you simply decide that George Graham's confessions to two of his relatives is worth nothing? Is that what reasonable doubt amounts to? [00:47:43] Speaker 7: The Crown position to you is that Robert O'Brien attacked Caroline with a blunt instrument causing her to fall into the water and drown. And that consequently, he is guilty of murder and nothing less. The Crown position regarding Andrew Kelly and Donna Brand is that they are guilty of murder because of the targeted nature of the attack. A set-up meeting was arranged in the dark. There is evidence from Archie that an implement was taken from the apartment and returned to the apartment. And since Archie saw the weapon, you can conclude that the others saw it as well. They were together. [00:48:30] Speaker 9: This is not a case of it's all or nothing. If one of them is guilty, they're all guilty. That is not the case at all. And so it's important that when you come to consider the case against Andrew Kelly, it's important you remember he's in a different position. And the evidence against him is not quite the same. [00:48:48] Speaker 7: You have the evidence from Archie that Andrew Kelly threw boulders at Caroline. Leaving her is also relevant to the case against all three accused. Nobody went to help her. She was face down in the river. [00:49:02] Speaker 9: There was no allegation against him that he threatened Caroline or had any form of a grudge against her whatsoever. [00:49:10] Speaker 7: The Crown never has to prove a motive, but you have the evidence. Donna Brand said that she wasn't happy about Caroline seeing Robbie and she was going to batter her. It was preposterous. [00:49:21] Speaker 3: A 17-year-old girl allegedly saying that she was going to batter another girl who was seeing her boyfriend. And it was reasonable to interpret that as an intention to kill somebody. And after 27 years of an investigation, that's the best that the most experienced prosecutor in the country can offer you. [00:49:45] Speaker 9: Now, I would submit to you that the doubts in this case are numerous. Remembering always that before you can convict Andrew Kelly of anything, you would have to first accept the evidence of five-year-old Archie, and you would have to find him a credible and reliable witness. He's a five-year-old boy. [00:50:05] Speaker 7: How would he know about the head injuries? Is he recounting a lived experience? And I suggest that he is. [00:50:14] Speaker 10: Here we are, 27 years after the event, and there is no new witnesses. There is no new fingerprint, DNA, scientific type of evidence. [00:50:29] Speaker 7: You, members of the jury, have a very, very important role because you are the masters of the fact. You are, in effect, judges. You heard the evidence, and it's your recollection which counts. I thank you for your attention. [00:50:47] Speaker 16: So, members of the jury, you've now heard all the evidence. You should put any prejudices you might have or moral disapproval of anyone's behaviour or lifestyle to one side. If the evidence leaves you with a reasonable doubt of the guilt of an accused, you must acquit that accused. You can return your verdict at any time, but you must not rush to judgement. So, with that, members of the jury, will you now please retire and consider your verdicts? Thank you. [00:51:25] Speaker 7: The jury are probing, testing, comparing the evidence and the issues are not straightforward, especially when there are three accused. [00:51:33] Speaker 3: It's difficult because there might be a gap between what the public consider joint responsibility compared to what the law books say about it. [00:51:44] Speaker 16: Welcome back. I'm told, not surprisingly, you need more time, so I'm going to just direct you to stop your deliberations for the day. Good morning, members of the jury. As I said yesterday, you can have as long as you need to reach your verdicts, you're under absolutely no pressure or time whatsoever. [00:52:03] Speaker 9: Murder is the most serious charge that anyone can face, and it has got very serious repercussions, not only for the accused, but also for the deceased's family. [00:52:14] Speaker 10: So, it's important that decisions are not swayed by prejudices towards one side, sympathies for the other. [00:52:21] Speaker 5: It could be anything that's holding them. They might be having difficulty with Donna Brandt and Andy Kelly as to what their participation was. [00:52:31] Speaker 3: It's not enough that, at some level, you might be morally culpable because there's a girl in the river and you don't do anything to help her. The jury need to be satisfied that there's evidence that proves that they participated. [00:52:46] Speaker 16: I understand that you've not reached your verdict yet, so I'll direct you to come back tomorrow. [00:52:52] Speaker 5: I'm absolutely terrified. All these years, these 27 years, to get this far, and then if nothing come at the end yet, that would be the end of me. I really feel that. [00:53:06] Speaker 4: The trial here at the High Court in Glasgow continues. [00:53:15] Speaker 16: Good morning again. Good morning. Again, just checking that you're all here, present and correct. Once again, will you please resume your deliberations? [00:53:23] Speaker 7: We all have to just be available, because the announcement could be at any time. [00:53:34] Speaker 5: It's quite harrowing just to sit and sit, and every time that bell goes, you're thinking, "Is this it?" I've never been so scared, or I needed something so much in all my life. [00:53:47] Speaker 1: In the High Court of Justiciary, in Court No. 5, verdict in the case of His Majesty's Advocate against Robert O'Brien, Andrew Kelly, and Donna Marie Brand. The verdict in Court No. 5. [00:54:06] Speaker 7: Despite doing this for a very long time, you never lose that anxiousness, which comes with the delivery of a verdict. I can't imagine how Caroline's mum and her dad are feeling right now. [00:54:22] Speaker 3: If you look at what my client has proved to have done, it doesn't justify a conviction. In fact, on the evidence, there's an argument for them all to be acquitted. [00:54:36] Speaker 7: Court! [00:54:49] Speaker 2: members of the jury would your spokesperson please stand. Have the jury reached a verdict? Yes we have. What is your verdict in respect of the first named accused, Robert O'Brien? Guilty. Is that unanimous or by the majority? Unanimous. What is your verdict in respect of the second named accused, Andrew Kelly? Guilty of murder. Is that unanimous or by a majority? Unanimous. And what is your verdict in respect of the third named accused, Donna Marie Brand? Guilty of murder. Is that unanimous or by a majority? Unanimous. [00:55:43] Speaker 16: Can you all stand up please? You've all been convicted of what can only be described as a brutal, depraved and above all wicked murder. While there is only one sentence which can be imposed in this case, I do propose to obtain criminal justice social work reports on all three of you so that I have the fullest possible information before passing sentence. Before passing sentence. [00:56:12] Speaker ?: Sheep. [00:56:42] Speaker 16: Well, my last function, members of the jury, is to thank you all for serving as Jewers. By definition, of course, since you are the judges of the fact, the verdict that you've reached is the correct one. But I can now discharge you for the last time, you go back to your Jew room and then your normal lives. [00:57:13] Speaker 7: I'm sorry we had to meet in these circumstances, but I hope the verdict gives you some sense of justice. It won't diminish the loss. I understand that. [00:57:29] Speaker 5: You know, I will love this month, remember? [00:57:36] Speaker 19: Aww. Hi. [00:57:38] Speaker 5: If you could just bear with me a wee bit, this has been a great day. I just cannot sum up how I feel. It will bring her back. But at least we know that who was responsible is serving time for it. Because for the past 25 years, they've lived their life. And they've had their Christmases and their birthdays. And my Caroline was in the ground, so this is a day that we never thought we would see. And now I think Caroline can rest in peace. And I think Caroline can rest in peace. [00:58:24] Speaker ?: And I think Caroline can rest in peace. And I think Caroline can rest in peace. And I think Caroline can rest in peace. And I think Caroline can rest in peace. And I think Caroline can rest in peace. And I think Caroline can rest in peace. And I think Caroline can rest in peace. And I think Caroline can rest in peace. And I think Caroline can rest in peace. And I think Caroline can rest in peace. And I think Caroline can rest in peace. And I think Caroline can rest in peace. And I think Caroline can rest in peace. And I think Caroline can rest in peace. And I think Caroline can rest in peace. And I think Caroline can rest in peace. And I think Caroline can rest in peace. And I think Caroline can rest in peace. And I think Caroline can rest in peace. And I think Caroline can rest in peace. And I think Caroline can rest in peace. And I think Caroline can rest in peace. And I think Caroline can rest in peace.