1985- John Denver - Congressional PMRC Hearing Full Testimony

[0:00] Thank you very much for being with us. [0:02] Good morning, Mr. Chairman. [0:03] It's a great pleasure to be with you, and I apologize for running in and out. [0:06] I seem to be testifying and briefing many people here in Capitol Hill today, [0:11] and it causes the in-going and out-going. [0:18] Honorable Chairman, members of the committee, ladies and gentlemen, [0:23] it's a great honor and a privilege to appear before you this morning [0:26] and to take advantage of the opportunity given me in our free society to speak my mind, [0:31] to give voice to my opinions in a public forum in front of not only the leadership of our great country, [0:36] but the press and the media, and through them all who might be listening around our country and around the world. [0:43] I'm here to address the issue of a possible rating system in the recording industry, [0:47] labeling records where excesses of explicit sex or graphic violence have occurred, [0:52] and furthermore, references to drugs and alcohol or the occult are included in the lyrics. [0:58] These hearings have been called to determine whether or not the government should intervene to enforce this practice. [1:05] Mr. Chairman, this would approach censorship. [1:08] May I be very clear that I am strongly opposed to censorship of any kind in our society or anywhere else in the world. [1:15] I've had in my experience two encounters with a sort of censorship. [1:18] My song, Rocky Mountain High, was banned from many radio stations as a drug-related song. [1:25] This was obviously done by people who'd never seen or been to the Rocky Mountains [1:28] and also had never experienced the elation, the celebration of life, or the joy in living that one feels [1:34] when he observes something as wondrous as the perceived meteor shower on a moonless and cloudless night [1:42] when there are so many stars that you have a shadow from the starlight, [1:48] and you're out camping with your friends, your best friends, [1:50] and introducing them to one of nature's most spectacular light shows for the very first time. [1:56] Obviously, a clear case of misinterpretation. [1:59] Mr. Chairman, what assurance have I had that any national panel to review my music would make any better judgment? [2:07] To my knowledge, my movie, O God, was not banned in any theaters. [2:11] However, some newspapers refused to print our advertisements, [2:13] and some theaters refused to put the name of the film in the marquee. [2:16] I don't believe that we were using the name of our Lord in vain. [2:20] Quite the opposite, we were making a small effort to spread his message [2:23] that we are here for each other and not against each other. [2:28] Discipline and self-restraint when practiced by an individual, a family, or a company [2:32] is an effective way to deal with this issue. [2:35] The same thing when forced on a people by their government, [2:39] or worse, by a self-appointed watchdog of public morals, [2:43] is suppression and will not be tolerated in a democratic society. [2:48] Mr. Chairman, the suppression of a people, of a society, [2:52] begins, in my mind, with the censorship of the written or spoken word. [2:57] It was so in Nazi Germany, it is so in many places today, [3:00] where those in power are afraid of the consequences of an informed and educated people. [3:04] In a mature and incredibly diverse society such as ours, [3:08] the access to all perspectives of an issue becomes more and more important. [3:11] Those things which, in our experience, are undesirable, [3:15] generally prove to be unfurthering, and sooner or later become boring. [3:19] That process cannot and should not be stifled. [3:23] On the other hand, that which is denied becomes that which is most interesting. [3:30] That which is hidden, excuse me, that which is denied becomes that which is most desired, [3:35] and that which is hidden becomes that which is most interesting. [3:38] Consequently, a great deal of time and energy is spent trying to get at what is being kept from you. [3:43] Our children, our people, our society, and the world cannot afford this waste. [3:47] It was my pleasure to meet with radio programmers and broadcasters from all over the country this past week in Dallas. [3:54] They expressed their concern about this issue and the direction in which it seemed to be going. [3:58] They also expressed their willingness to practice the discipline and self-restraint that I mentioned earlier, [4:04] especially when they were given direction by their listeners. [4:07] Now, I believe this to be true because they're in business to please their listening audience. [4:12] I would like to acknowledge the PMRC for bringing this issue to the attention of not only our industry, [4:19] but our government and our people. [4:22] It is obvious that we are dealing with a real problem, which warrants our concern. [4:27] I would like to point out, however, that we address ourselves not to the problem, but to the symptoms. [4:33] I suggest that explicit lyrics and graphic videos are not so far removed from what is seen on television every day and night, [4:41] whether it be in the soap operas or on the news. [4:43] That we should point our finger at the recording industry while watching the general public at a nationally televised baseball game [4:49] chant in unison, the Blue Jays suck, is ludicrous. [4:53] The problem, Mr. Chairman, in my opinion, has to do with our willingness as parents [5:00] to take responsibility for the upbringing of our children, to pay attention to their interest, [5:05] to respond to their needs, and to recognize that we as parents and as individuals [5:12] have a greater influence on our children and on each other than anything else could possibly have. [5:21] To quote a wise old man from ancient China, [5:25] if there be righteousness, not self-righteousness, that's not part of the quote, [5:31] if there be righteousness in the heart, there will be beauty in the character. [5:38] If there be beauty in the character, there will be harmony in the home. [5:43] If there be harmony in the home, there will be order in the nation. [5:48] And if there be order in the nation, there will be peace in the world. [5:52] I thank you very much. [5:54] Mr. Chairman, if I may, excuse me, add a couple of personal words. [6:01] I'm a father of two children, both adopted. [6:03] I have a lot of friends in the music business, other rock performers who have children also. [6:07] And all of them, including myself, we have a great concern for our children. [6:11] That's why I'm here today. [6:14] In my experience, sir, all over the world, [6:16] one of the most interesting things about the music that young people are listening to [6:19] is it gives us, as adults, a very clear insight as to what is going on in their minds. [6:26] We can know what they're thinking by listening to the music that they surround themselves with. [6:31] The people that I've had the opportunity to talk with, the troubled children, the teenagers who are considering suicide, [6:41] what they express to me is a real frustration in their lives, an inability to communicate with their parents, [6:47] an inability to understand or to envision any kind of a possible future because of the nuclear threat that we live under. [6:54] They don't see things getting better economically. [6:57] They don't see things getting better for the small businessman, for the small farmer. [7:02] They do not see a future for themselves. [7:04] It is my opinion that it is out of this that some young people put a gun into their mouths and pull the trigger. [7:12] We can turn this around, sir. [7:15] We can address the reality of a problem and not deal with just the symptoms [7:18] and create not only a better world for our children, but for ourselves and all of humanity. [7:24] We can end hunger. [7:25] We can rid the world of nuclear weapons. [7:27] We can learn to live together as human beings on a planet that travels through the universe [7:32] living the example of peace and harmony among all people. [7:37] I haven't listened to too much of it, but it seems like the majority is otherwise. [7:43] I think that the oral atmosphere developing in this, particularly hearing that the committee is on trial [7:50] and make darn sure we don't do nothing, or to transmit, rather, back to the original problem, [7:56] filth, pornography, suicide, all this other stuff coming out of these records. [8:01] Now, the other gentleman, Zappa, said, print the words. [8:04] I rather like that, since I wouldn't have to rate it. [8:09] He would rate it one way, obviously, and I would rate it differently. [8:11] And is that human error involved? [8:15] Do you have any recommendation for the committee other than just do nothing? [8:19] I mean, you've talked in beautiful terms. [8:21] You're the best I've seen. [8:22] I mean, on peace and the family, I'm not speaking facetiously, and the family and the responsibility [8:28] and the wonderful human nature, and I'm with you on the stars. [8:32] We're both supporters of Cousteau, and I've authored in this particular committee the oceanography programs. [8:39] Barring all of that, are you saying do nothing? [8:43] No, sir, I'm not saying do nothing, and that is exactly why I'm here and why I applaud this hearing [8:47] and applaud what these ladies, what the PMRC has presented to us. [8:51] I think we've got to be sensible about it, but there is, like you say, particularly with at least the radio and TV, [9:00] I can't read the words coming there. [9:04] I can see that difference between Mr. Zappa and myself. [9:07] If persons of free volition can go in and read the language and see the words there, I wouldn't have to rate it. [9:14] But then, to not have some inhibition, some kind of discipline, as you describe it, within the broadcast media, [9:22] then we've flunked the course because there are six hours of that thing steaming and beaming into the homes. [9:30] Well, you know, Senator, excuse me if I'm interrupting. [9:32] No, sir. [9:33] I'm trying to... [9:34] When I was raised, television was just coming out, and golly, it was an attractive medium, [9:39] and I could sit there in front of that TV set and watch it all day. [9:43] My parents had some restrictions on how much time I could watch television during the week, [9:47] especially when I was going to school, and I could choose the programs that I wanted to watch. [9:51] And I think that this is kind of an influence that we can exercise as parents on our children. [9:55] Just because it's on seven hours doesn't mean our kids are going to get to sit there and watch it that whole time. [9:59] And we can give them a certain amount of time, and over here for me, you know, [10:02] one of the things that I'm fortunate with is my children and I live in a beautiful country, [10:07] and we have a lot of activities which really call us outdoors, call us together and away from the boob tube. [10:15] You know, I don't watch very much television. [10:18] And I think that we can exercise this kind of influence on our children, even in a city environment. [10:23] You and I are different. [10:24] I mean, you and I are the same. [10:26] We don't watch. [10:27] I don't watch that much television, obviously, but the record is otherwise. [10:31] They're watching television as much as instruction in the classroom, in the public schools, and more. [10:36] All surveys show that. [10:38] So it's being watched. [10:40] So that's the fact. [10:41] And living in the real world, where you and I would like to restrict our children, and me, my grandchildren now, [10:48] it's a real problem. [10:51] It's a real problem. [10:52] And I guess you know from being a master at the art, the way you start off selling that record is get it accepted at some good programming, [11:00] some good broadcasting, and then the sales follow. [11:04] And you can't print those words ahead of time, so I'll know to cut the television off quick or whatever it is, [11:11] unless that discipline develops, in other words, with the broadcast media. [11:15] We are going to be forced somewhere with regulations through the FCC or otherwise. [11:20] I don't think the American public is going to go along just with a nice hearing up in Washington today. [11:27] I think there's going to have to be something more developed of some kind of discipline, as you indicate. [11:32] And I'm trying to find out from you, how do you develop that discipline a little bit better than what has been developed? [11:38] Well, I think that, you know, a good beginning to addressing this real problem is this hearing that is taking place. [11:45] What most concerns me, aside from potential legislation which might be enacted, which we have heard today is not going to be the case, [11:53] is that the whole presentation made by the PMRC comes from, in my experience, a foundation of fear. [12:03] The only thing we have to fear, as President Roosevelt said, is fear itself. [12:07] I'm not afraid of anything. [12:08] I'm not afraid of what my children might see. [12:10] I'm not afraid of anything that might be shown them or done in their presence that would lessen my influence on them [12:17] or their opportunity to grow up and be fine, upstanding adults and perhaps someday serve in this very august body. [12:23] Well, most respectfully, President Roosevelt never heard these records. [12:31] I think the things that he heard were far worse, sir. [12:33] Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. [12:40] It's an honor to be able to ask some questions. [12:43] I've been a fan for a long time, Mr. Denver, and not only of your music, [12:47] but also of your contributions to efforts like Farm Aid at the present time [12:54] and also World Peace and your trips to the Soviet Union and elsewhere. [13:01] Do you see the kind of trend in some rock music that is outlined by this presentation? [13:10] Have you ever been to a Motley Crue concert, for example? [13:14] No, sir. [13:15] Do you agree that there does seem to be a growing trend, at least in the heavy metal area, [13:28] that emphasizes explicit violence and sex and sadomasochism and the rest? [13:37] You're aware of that music, aren't you? [13:39] Yes. [13:39] Why do you think that has been growing in popularity? [13:43] Again, sir, my experience, not only in this country, but all over the world, [13:50] is that music today is the medium which most specifically tells us what's going on in young people's minds, [13:56] not what's being put into them, but what reflects what they're interested in. [14:01] I think that this addresses itself to a much graver problem, [14:04] in fact, the source of the symptom that we're discussing here today. [14:07] Well, I mean, if a 10-year-old listens to a song glorifying a rape, [14:18] that's not reflecting what is in that 10-year-old's mind, is it? [14:24] I don't think so. [14:25] I'm not sure that there are many 10-year-olds who know what rape is. [14:28] Well, I'm not sure I would agree with that. [14:35] If you have an explicit description of a suicide, for example, [14:46] and a song that seems to glorify and promote suicide, [14:53] that's not... I mean, young people are aware of that. [15:00] Mr. Gore, Senator, excuse me for interrupting. [15:02] Sure. [15:03] If I could count the number of times that a mother or father has come up to me [15:07] or a child has come up to me and says, [15:09] if I don't get your autograph, my mother's going to kill me. [15:13] If I don't get your autograph, my daughter's going to kill me. [15:16] Yeah. [15:17] You know, just... [15:19] Well, you see a difference. [15:19] This is a part of our language. [15:22] And there might be a slight difference, [15:24] but I don't think it's as big as you point out. [15:26] Well, if the... [15:27] This video that we watched here today, [15:30] I think is probably a fantasy that every child, [15:32] that every kid has about his father at some point in time. [15:35] It may not be exactly those particular graphics. [15:38] It may be out on the farm being able to take your dad out [15:40] and put a board to his fanny. [15:43] But this goes on. [15:44] This is a part of growing up. [15:45] And our society has gotten increasingly complex. [15:48] There are many more images to reach from. [15:50] They all have an impact on a child's mind. [15:53] And I'm saying that the small percentage of records [15:55] that we're discussing here today [15:56] compared to the 125,000 songs that are released every year [16:00] is minuscule [16:01] and is not going to affect our children [16:04] to a degree that we need to be fearful of. [16:06] We need to be conscious of it. [16:08] We must concern ourselves. [16:10] And we need to communicate with our children [16:12] and have them feel comfortable with communicating with us. [16:15] Well, let me come back to the question about suicide. [16:18] Let's say you have a popular rock star [16:21] who has a lot of fans, [16:26] who sings a song that says suicide is the solution [16:32] and appears in fan magazines [16:34] with a gun barrel pointed in his mouth [16:39] and promotes material that seems to glorify suicide. [16:44] Here we have one of the highest rates of teen suicide [16:47] of any country in the world. [16:50] The rate has gone up 300% in the last decade [16:53] among young people [16:54] while it's remained constant among adults. [16:57] Do you think it's a responsible act [17:00] for a record company [17:03] to put out a song glorifying suicide [17:06] and for the artist to promote the album [17:10] by putting a gun in his mouth [17:13] in a simulation of suicide? [17:17] I would not like to be the one [17:22] to tell a record company [17:23] or an artist what to do. [17:26] I certainly think the picture [17:27] that you describe is deplorable [17:28] and if I found out of my home, [17:31] I would talk to my kids about it [17:33] and get rid of it. [17:35] Can I admit that you have to leave? [17:38] Is that correct? [17:40] Senator, I appreciate that. [17:41] Yes, I have an appointment with NASA at noon [17:43] and if it's possible, [17:45] I would like to go to that [17:46] but I also really appreciate [17:48] being able to discuss this with you all [17:49] and I'm happy to stay if I can handle that. [17:53] Let me ask if there are any, [17:55] are there any more questions? [17:56] Mr. Chairman, I will stop my questions [17:59] at this point [18:00] and wish Mr. Denver good luck [18:01] in getting on the space shuttle. [18:03] Thanks very much. [18:04] I appreciate that. [18:05] Senator Exxon has a question [18:08] and I think Senator Pressler does. [18:10] Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. [18:14] Yes, sir. [18:15] I appreciate your testimony. [18:24] Yes, sir. [18:25] In fact, I think I know you, [18:28] I think a friend of yours, Rainbow Terrain, [18:32] has talked about you. [18:34] She's an art instructor [18:35] and a friend of my wife's [18:36] and I kind of think I know her through you. [18:38] Just one basic question. [18:41] Please clarify for us, [18:43] what is your opinion [18:45] to the key question [18:47] that's been asked time and time again here [18:49] and you've alluded to it. [18:52] Are you for [18:54] the printing of material on labels? [18:59] Are you for or against [19:01] or are you for or against [19:03] any kind of a rating [19:04] as long as it's done voluntarily [19:06] between the record companies [19:09] and the producers? [19:12] That's my key question [19:13] and I would simply say one more time, [19:16] which I said every time [19:17] I've had this microphone this morning, [19:19] I think it's wrong to imply [19:21] that although no bills have introduced, [19:24] bills might not be introduced [19:26] and I want to hold that threat [19:29] for what it's worth [19:30] over the head [19:30] of trying to accomplish [19:31] some free enterprise volunteerism [19:34] that most people have agreed to. [19:37] What do you think [19:37] about a free enterprise volunteerism [19:40] getting together [19:41] and either printing [19:42] or coming up with a rating program [19:44] of some kind [19:45] that would be prominently displayed [19:47] on records? [19:48] I'm opposed as an artist, [19:49] I'm opposed to any kind [19:51] of a rating system, [19:51] voluntary or otherwise. [19:53] Putting the lyrics [19:54] on the sleeve of an album [19:55] or on the jacket of an album [19:56] is no problem for me. [19:58] Again, I think it goes [19:59] beyond reading the word [20:00] and I bring up again [20:01] the song Rocky Mountain High. [20:03] You know, some people, [20:04] high is high [20:05] and high is getting stoned [20:06] and high is a feeling [20:08] of elation, [20:09] a celebration in life. [20:11] As I told the people [20:11] in the Soviet Union [20:12] when I had the privilege [20:13] of singing for them there, [20:14] I sang Rocky Mountain High [20:16] and then I described [20:17] what high meant to me [20:18] and then I said to them, [20:19] that's how I feel [20:20] having the privilege [20:21] of singing for you. [20:22] That is how I feel [20:22] having the opportunity [20:23] to participate [20:24] in my government [20:24] here today. [20:26] Thank you, Mr. Danford. [20:27] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [20:28] Senator Pressler. [20:29] Like I said, [20:30] I'm with my question. [20:32] Your basic line [20:33] is that you're against [20:34] any type of government [20:35] action in this area [20:36] or indeed [20:37] any voluntary labeling. [20:40] I would be, yes. [20:41] Okay. [20:42] Thank you very much. [20:44] Thank you very much. [20:45] Thank you for your patience [20:46] for waiting so long. [20:48] Thank you, Senator. [20:49] Great privilege [20:49] to be with you all. [20:50] Thank you.