15 Times Alec Baldwin's Lawyer Grilled Witnesses Under Intense Cross-Examination

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: How come you didn't inventory it and put it with all the rest of the evidence in the Rust case? [00:00:06] Speaker 2: I was instructed to put this in as a doc information case. [00:00:11] Speaker 1: You buried it? [00:00:13] Speaker 2: No. [00:00:14] Speaker 1: Today at the trial of Alec Baldwin, when you're talking to this jury, you left that word out. Isn't that true? [00:00:20] Speaker 3: Not intentionally, no. [00:00:22] Speaker 1: You briefly made contact with him to get some preliminary facts? Yes, sir. He never, in describing the preliminary facts, he had ever mentioned. Alec Baldwin, correct? Correct. [00:00:32] Jesse Weber: The cross-examination by Alec Baldwin's defense counsel in his manslaughter trial has been intense. What points for me has his legal team vigorously questioned the state's witnesses? We're going to discuss some of the top moments from cross-examination by Baldwin's lawyers so far in this case, and what impact it may have. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law & Crime. I'm Jesse Weber. Now, a key element in any trial that we cover is cross-examination. This is the chance for opposing counsel to question the other side's witnesses. And so far, in the Alec Baldwin involuntary manslaughter trial, we have seen quite a bit of cross-examination by the actor's legal counsel. And that is what we're going to get into right now, because there are very important points being made by Baldwin's attorney. Now, this, of course, is the case where Alec Baldwin is facing an involuntary manslaughter charge for the 2021 shooting death of cinematographer Helena Hutchins on the set of the movie Rust. This was when a prop gun held by Baldwin went off. Turns out a live round was in that firearm. The bullet hit Helena, as well as director Joel Souza. He was hit in the shoulder. He survived. Helena sadly did not. The armor in this case, Hannah Gutierrez-Reed. She was already convicted of her own involuntary manslaughter charge. She was sentenced to the maximum of 18 months in prison. She was responsible for not properly loading and checking the firearm. A jury determined that. Now, Baldwin faces potentially the same fate for his alleged role. It's a little bit different here, because the prosecution is reportedly arguing two theories. One, that he's guilty of involuntary manslaughter either because he acted negligently when using the firearm, or he acted without due caution or circumspection, showing a total disregard or indifference for the safety of others. And specifically for Baldwin, the prosecution has argued that Baldwin was the one who pulled the trigger. That he, in fact, did pull the trigger of the gun that day, even though Baldwin claimed he did not. But it was also that he exhibited a pattern of recklessness on the set, even before the shooting of Helena Hutchins. That he fired a weapon after Cut was yelled. That he used the firearm as a pointer. That he cocked and decocked the gun when he wasn't supposed to. This is what the prosecution says they will show this jury. Now, the defense has argued that, look, he was just an actor on that set. That's not his job to check the gun. It's not his job to make sure it's safe. He's supposed to rely on the experts here. And by the way, even if he did pull the trigger, he had a right to. This was a Western film with guns. He had a right to point the gun. He had a right to fire the gun. He had a right to decock or cock the gun. The defense will also challenge the idea of him actually pulling the trigger. And we're going to get into that because they have a very key piece of information in their corner. But now let's talk about the cross-examination by defense counsel Alex Spiro. So again, this is questioning prosecution's witnesses. And we want to begin when he questioned Nicholas LaFleur. This is a former Santa Fe County deputy. First person to arrive on the scene. And when LaFleur testified, his body cam footage was played in court. And in that footage, you see some of the initial reactions of Alec Baldwin and crew members. This is right after the shooting. And the prosecution emphasized how Baldwin was talking with other witnesses to the shooting when he really shouldn't have. The idea that maybe he was coordinating his story or infecting everyone's recollection of what happened. It's never good that witnesses right after an event like this are talking to one another. You really want to segregate them. So Spiro not only focused on Baldwin's behavior in his cross-examination, but he also questions the way LaFleur is describing things. [00:04:23] Speaker 1: Mr. Baldwin, he looked very shocked. If you could picture Mr. Baldwin in a pale state, you know, like unsure of himself, you could say an actor out of character. Is that a fair description? Sure. And he said to you, I'm here, whatever you want to do, right? Yes. The dispatch that came over to your radio, sir, before you got to the scene was a dispatch for an accidental shooting by a prop gun, correct? I believe that's what was told to me, yes. Okay, and you've testified to that previously, right? Yes. Okay, and the dispatch report, you know, you know that you received that wording, accidental discharge, several times, right? I believe so. Okay, so I want to ask you, I want to ask you, how come when you described it today in court, how come you didn't include the word accident when you testified before this jury? I'm not one to say if it was an accident or not. I'm just there to initially respond to it, and then the detectives determined out whether or not it was an accident. Well, sure, but every other time you've been asked about this, you've said it was an accident, and now today at the trial of Alec Baldwin, when you're talking to this jury, you left that word out. Isn't that true? Not intentionally, no. And, you know, then you went on and you said, you know, that you had told Mr. Baldwin not to speak to the other witnesses. Do you remember that testimony? Yes. And I think you were asked approximately five times why Mr. Baldwin was disobeying your orders. Do you remember that testimony? Yes. But in the lapel video that we just saw, you're not going up to Mr. Baldwin or these witnesses going, get out of here. Get out of here. I'm an officer. You've got to separate. You don't do that, right? [00:06:13] Speaker 3: No. [00:06:18] Speaker 1: And also in that video, you can see a lot of these people are coming over to Mr. Baldwin, right? Yes. One of them comes over and shakes his hand, right? Yes. Have you ever seen that in all of your experience? Somebody commit a homicide and everybody and all the witnesses are on the scene circling around the person, shaking his hand and talking to him about what happened. Have you ever seen that in your entire career? [00:06:40] Jesse Weber: No. All right. A few things to break down here. So first, one of the narratives put forward by the defense is that all law enforcement was concerned about was trying to pin this on Alec Baldwin and that this witness is biased. That's why he didn't use the word accident in front of the jury. At least that seems to be the argument being put forward by the defense. And there's also this perception that Alec Baldwin, as I mentioned, was trying to influence witnesses and match up stories. But as Alex Spiro was saying, you, sir, you didn't really tell them to separate. So Baldwin wasn't really not following instructions. Also, Spiro argued that Baldwin was in a state of shock, disbelief about what happened. He couldn't predict that this would happen. He couldn't foresee that this could happen. And maybe trying to suggest that you can't blame him for whatever he said or however he behaved right after this moment. He is in a state of shock. And by the way, Spiro saying, nonetheless, Alec Baldwin was cooperative. He was willing to help law enforcement. He was ready to jump in. And also, isn't it strange if he really committed a crime and he was responsible for the death of Helena, why are people coming up to him and talking to him and shaking his hand? The idea, no one thought he did anything wrong. And that was emphasized again when Spiro cross-examined Deputy Joseph Lujon from the Santa Fe County Sheriff's Office. And he had went to the hospital to recover the projectile that hit Joel Souza. And while he was there, he got some information from the director. [00:08:15] Speaker 1: I think you told the prosecutor you briefly made contact with him to get some preliminary facts. Yes, sir. And he was willing to speak to you, right? Yes, sir. And he never once mentioned Alec Baldwin, did he? [00:08:24] Speaker 2: Objection calls for hearsay. [00:08:26] Speaker 1: He never, in describing the preliminary facts, you ever mentioned Alec Baldwin, correct? [00:08:32] Jesse Weber: Correct. Yeah, I think what they're trying to suggest here is wouldn't the guy who was shot by Baldwin talk about the actor, blame him for what happened? Not according to this testimony. Again, recurring narrative, recurring theme. No one thought Baldwin did anything wrong. Baldwin did not commit a crime. That's what the defense is trying to put forward. Okay. Now I want to show you the cross-examination of Tim Benavidez, retired lieutenant, Santa Fe County Sheriff's Office. He came on scene, recovered the actual revolver, the weapon that was used in this shooting. But when he's cross-examined by Baldwin's counsel here, it seems to me the theme here is, again, the fault does not lie with Alec Baldwin, but rather with the expert in this case, Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, the armorer. [00:09:25] Speaker 1: And you wanted to talk to Hannah about this, correct? [00:09:34] Speaker 3: I kept her for the detectives, yes. She said, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I did hear that on my lapel, yes. Okay. Everyone's been yelling at her? I did hear that in my lapel. And you placed her in the police car, right? In the back of my patrol car, yes. Right. Nobody placed Mr. Baldwin in a police car, correct? [00:09:56] Speaker 2: Objection relevance. [00:10:01] Speaker 3: Correct? Correct. [00:10:02] Speaker 1: Do you see that on your screen, sir? Yes, I do. And if you look sort of in the middle section, you know, the two and two, the two and the two? [00:10:14] Speaker 3: Oh, yes. [00:10:14] Speaker 1: Can you tell which ones are dummies in lives by looking at them? [00:10:18] Jesse Weber: I do not. It seems the idea here is, A, there was a clear understanding the armorer was at fault, and B, if you can't even tell what rounds are what, then how can you expect Alec Baldwin, the actor, to know the difference? So that is a way to undercut the prosecution's key argument that Baldwin never checked the gun before the shooting, because the prosecution says he knew Gutierrez-Reed was inexperienced, he should have checked the gun, but it seems the argument from the defense here is, well, even if he checked the gun, would he know there's a live round in there? Okay. From there, I now have to get into arguably the most fiery cross-examination that we saw, maybe the most memorable. This is when Alec Spiro really, really grilled a witness. This is Marissa Popple, crime scene technician, and she recovered the live rounds on the set. Key figure in this case. So Spiro asked a number of questions. For instance, when it came to the testing of the hammer of the gun. And remember, Alec Baldwin said previously, he cocked the hammer, but he didn't pull the trigger. [00:11:29] Speaker 1: Did you, after speaking to Mr. Baldwin, did you then test the hammer of the gun for DNA or fingerprints or request that it be done? [00:11:41] Speaker 2: The request that was made was after a conversation with the lab. [00:11:45] Speaker 1: Did you specify, you know, given what we've learned now, we really want you to check the hammer specifically? Did you make that request? [00:11:53] Speaker 2: I don't recall specifically requesting that. [00:11:56] Jesse Weber: Hmm. So that theme of not a thorough investigation to get to the truth of what happened, but instead to try to pin this on Alec Baldwin. And by the way, this was a very important point because Spiro also pointed out under cross-examination that unlike the prosecution's characterization of Baldwin as a rogue actor who cocked the gun and pointed it and allegedly shot the weapon, guess what? They say Baldwin was supposed to cock the gun, that that was part of the movie. And how do we know that? Or at least how is the defense trying to make that argument? Well, they found a copy of the script in Helena's bag. [00:12:32] Speaker 1: And you see the name Helena on top, right? [00:12:37] Speaker 2: Yes. This is what was taken out of her back. [00:12:40] Speaker 1: And what was at the floor, A3, Russ Colt cocked quietly now. Did I read that right? [00:12:50] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:12:51] Speaker 1: And you and your fellow officers discussed this and said, this is important. It confirms what he told us. Didn't you? [00:12:58] Speaker 2: I believe that I stated it was important because it was a script that involved a firearm inside the church where a shooting had occurred. [00:13:11] Speaker 1: After this point in time, eventually, you all sent that firearm off not to have the firearm tested its hammer for DNA, but rather for it to end up being destroyed in the testing or broken in the testing, if you prefer. [00:13:28] Speaker 2: The firearm was sent for DNA and additional testing was not conducted until later. [00:13:37] Jesse Weber: And let's focus on that, too, because one of the biggest points for the defense is that the gun in question was broken by the FBI or parts of it were broken when they tested it. And Spyro claimed in openings that that meant that his team couldn't analyze the gun in its original condition to see whether the gun could, in fact, malfunction, whether the gun could go off without pulling the trigger, that therefore Baldwin wasn't able to show his truth that he didn't pull the trigger. So I want you to listen to this cross-examination where this is really hit upon. [00:14:08] Speaker 1: Did you tell Mr. Baldwin, don't worry, we're going to find the source of the live ammunition, or words to that effect? [00:14:15] Speaker 2: I don't recall stating that. [00:14:17] Speaker 1: You don't deny it, though, do you? [00:14:18] Speaker 2: No. [00:14:21] Speaker 1: You end up, you and the team, end up ordering the accidental discharge test, I think you called it the drop test, on the firearm in question, right? [00:14:30] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:14:30] Speaker 1: And when you all ordered that test, the FBI told you that this test may very well destroy the gun, right? [00:14:38] Speaker 2: I don't recall that. [00:14:39] Speaker 1: You do agree with me that you were involved in the team's decision to send that firearm off to the FBI for that testing, correct? [00:14:48] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:14:49] Speaker 1: Okay. That firearm that you told me earlier in my examination was something that you were entrusted to keep track of and to protect, right? [00:14:59] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:15:00] Speaker 1: A piece of evidence that you knew was critical in this case, correct? [00:15:04] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:15:06] Speaker 1: And the FBI told you, in no uncertain terms, that if they do this test on the firearm, it would alter the condition of the firearm, correct? [00:15:15] Speaker 2: I don't recall that. [00:15:17] Speaker 1: Okay. At the time that this testing was ordered, you knew that the firearm would no longer be in the same physical condition you recovered it in, correct? [00:15:31] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:15:32] Jesse Weber: And Spyro also focused in upon the idea of knowledge, that while prosecutors could argue Baldwin should have known how unsafe the set was, and he should know that there could be a live bullet in the gun. But, watch this. [00:15:48] Speaker 2: There was one live round located inside the church, in Mr. Baldwin's holster. [00:15:53] Speaker 1: Right, so, right, the bandolier that we were talking about before? [00:15:56] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:15:57] Speaker 1: Okay. And you have no reason to think that Mr. Baldwin had any idea that was there, right? [00:16:02] Speaker 2: Correct. [00:16:03] Speaker 1: And so, Mr. Eccles, another actor on the set, turns out that he, as he acted, as he performed, had a live bullet in his bandolier, correct? [00:16:16] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:16:19] Speaker 1: And you have no reason to think Mr. Eccles had any idea that was there, right? [00:16:25] Speaker 2: Correct. [00:16:31] Speaker 1: Your working theory, as you evaluated the ammunition and looked at the similarity between the Starline Nickel live and the Starline Nickel dummies, is that they could have been easily commingled. Fair? [00:16:46] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:16:47] Speaker 1: In other words, somebody could have mistaken one for the other, right? [00:16:52] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:16:52] Jesse Weber: And during the continuation of the cross-examination, Spyro really focused in on where did these live rounds come from, where could they have come from? And I think what he's trying to get at here is, again, this lack of diligence in law enforcement getting the answers, including properly investigating Seth Kenny, the ammo supplier. [00:17:14] Speaker 1: You all had done nothing to secure this prop house? [00:17:18] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:17:18] Speaker 1: Okay. And tell the jury, how long did you wait to execute the search warrant? November 30th. Okay. So that was a month and a week, at least, right, after the incident question. Doesn't that Seth Kenny round look exactly like the live round? [00:17:39] Speaker 2: Under a camera flash, I suppose it could. [00:17:43] Speaker 1: Well, I don't know about suppose it could. I mean, you know, we'll look at the showcasing. Exhibit 28. And we'll go back. 827. We can go back. States 28. Don't you think they look an awful lot alike? [00:18:04] Speaker 2: They look similar, yes, but I can still see differences. [00:18:08] Speaker 1: You have no reason to think anybody on the set of Rust was able to do that, do you? [00:18:12] Speaker 2: No. [00:18:13] Speaker 1: Did you take the cell phone of Seth Kenny? [00:18:16] Speaker 2: I don't believe so, no. [00:18:17] Speaker 1: Did you take the prints of Seth Kenny? [00:18:19] Speaker 2: No. [00:18:19] Jesse Weber: It's interesting that Spyro focused on that because even the prosecution explained that Baldwin's not being charged for manslaughter for bringing live rounds to the set or loading the gun. No one's alleging he did any of that. That's not part of their case. But it seems to me that what Spyro and the defense are doing is suggesting that not being thorough in this investigation is the issue. That Popple saying on the stand, she didn't even recall even looking for surveillance footage in this case that could have connected a lot of pieces of this puzzle. And Spyro asked Popple, isn't the truth that you were just trying to get this over with so that the prosecutors could focus on Alec Baldwin? Popple responded, no. That's a central theme in the defense's case. Now, I will end this discussion on cross-examination with this. A bombshell was dropped under cross-examination of Popple, something we did not expect. [00:19:15] Speaker 1: And a good Samaritan walked into the police station and gave you the lethal ammunition, didn't they? [00:19:23] Speaker 2: After the Hannah Gutierrez trial, there was an individual that came to the police station and stated they had ammunition. [00:19:35] Speaker 1: And they turned in the ammunition. [00:19:37] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:19:38] Speaker 1: And they gave it to you, right? Yes. And they told you that this was the ammunition that ended up with Seth Kenny that killed Ms. Hutchins, right? [00:19:47] Speaker 2: I do not recall all of their statements. [00:19:50] Speaker 1: You never vouchered that and turned it over to the defense, did you? [00:19:54] Speaker 2: It is, it was a doc information situation. I was instructed by my lieutenant to create a doc info report on it. [00:20:09] Speaker 1: And, I mean, what does that mean? [00:20:12] Speaker 2: It means we're documenting information that this individual came and gave this ammunition to us. [00:20:20] Speaker 1: Okay, but you didn't, I mean, he told you it had to do with the rush shooting, correct? Yes. And he told you you all had been duped by Seth Kenny, didn't he? [00:20:28] Speaker 2: No. [00:20:28] Speaker 1: In words and substance, didn't he? [00:20:30] Speaker 2: I don't recall that, no. [00:20:32] Speaker 1: Okay. And he asked, he said to you, I'm willing to fill out a witness statement, right? [00:20:36] Speaker 2: No, I don't recall that. [00:20:38] Speaker 1: Did you take the rounds that were provided to you? By the way, they were Starline Brass Nickel Primer Live, weren't they? [00:20:51] Speaker 2: I don't recall. [00:20:53] Speaker 1: You don't recall? Really? [00:20:56] Speaker 2: That is what I said. [00:20:58] Speaker 1: How come you didn't inventory it and put it with all the rest of the evidence in the rust case? [00:21:05] Speaker 2: I was instructed to put this in as a doc information case, which I did, and it is under that case number. [00:21:14] Speaker 1: You buried it? [00:21:16] Speaker ?: No. [00:21:17] Jesse Weber: Wow. So according to Mr. Spiro, someone came in after Gutierrez-Reed's trial claiming he had rounds that matched the bullet that killed Helena Hutchins. This individual later identified as former police officer Troy Teske. The prosecution, though, when they had an opportunity to question Ms. Popple, they established on redirect or tried to reestablish on redirect that the ammo was actually not, in fact, a match to the fatal bullet in this case. But Jason Bowles, Gutierrez-Reed's lawyer, you might remember him from her trial, he wrote in an email, and this was published by Variety, that the bullets do in fact match, and they show a connection between Seth Kenny and the live rounds on set. But for Alec Baldwin, main argument here, there was a rush to judgment, there was a rush to get him prosecuted, there wasn't a thorough investigation to understand more about this ammo and the circumstances of this shooting. So that is just a sampling of the cross-examination over the past couple of days. That is not going to end. We are going to see a lot more questioning and a lot more happening in this case. So continue to follow us here on Sidebar. We will bring you the latest here on the Alec Baldwin trial. Please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jesse Weber. Speak to you next time. [00:22:54] Speaker ?: you