Good evening, everybody. Good evening. Let me try that again. Welcome to the February 6, 2025 City Commission meeting. Call the meeting to order. And we're going to start with invocation and Pledge of Allegiance. And Jen, I'll turn to you. Let us begin this meeting by taking a brief moment of silence and reflection. Amen. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic. Okay. And next we're going to have a presentation. And before I start that, first we do, can we all put our hats on? Want to make it very clear we're Blue Jay fans and also protect yourself in the sun when you go to games. So, right? Right, Vice Mayor? Okay. So, starting it out before the actual Toronto Blue Jays Welcome Back proclamation is read by Commissioner Walker. I'm going to turn this over to Commissioner Sandbergen, who is our liaison for the Blue Jays, who is on Zoom. Thank you, Mayor. Is Shelby there? He is. He can come forward. Yeah, let's get him up there. Yeah, let's get you up here, Shelby. I'm here. Oh, wow. We're going to get more hats. We'll get more hats. This is awesome. Yeah, I'm sure he sees me sitting in my house without one. This is fantastic. I'm just wondering how... Sorry we didn't get you a hat to your home, Commissioner. That's okay. You know, I can't see Shelby, but it doesn't make us... All right. Thank you. Yeah. That's awesome. You know, I just want to say, I've been a part of this community for a long time, and I really understand the importance of the Toronto Blue Jays to the city of Dunedin, and it's much more than just a baseball program. You don't go to too many functions in the city that they're not a sponsor or hosting. Their commitment to the schools, the Little League, the high school baseball team, it's something I don't think we could ever put a price tag on. They've given us the exposure of 41 million fans in Canada that only have one baseball team, and that's our baseball team here with the Toronto Blue Jays. Years ago, there was a financial impact study on what spring training means to Dunedin, and it was a PhD out of FSU, and I said, I think I could sum this up a lot quicker. On game day, go downtown and try to find an ice cream cone, a seat at the bar, or a seat at the restaurant, and you'll know how much the Toronto Blue Jays mean to this community. You know, Shelby, it's been over 30 years since that World Series win. I've been lucky enough to be in Mr. Shapiro's office, and I saw those two trophies, and I think tonight begins the American League East, the American League Championship, and let's bring another World Series to Toronto. I would like to thank you, Mark Shapiro, Matthew Schuber, Matthew Woke, Pat Sconda, and Charlie Wilson. You guys are the ones that have been good to me. I know what you've done to the city because I've been there since day one, and thank you for everything that you do, Shelby, from me to you. Thank you. Thank you, Steve. Thank you, Commissioner. That was wonderful, and that's a hard act to follow, Commissioner Walker, to do the proclamation. You know, I am almost thinking we don't have to do the proclamation now. You know, before I start, I do want to say that, you know, when spring training rolls around and baseball season starts ramping up, you know, there is a special buzz in this town. You know, there's just this level of excitement, and, you know, today we're a block off the trail across, just literally across almost from the ballpark, and to hear the announcing system being tested today, you know, you knew it was real. So, anyway. Welcome back, Toronto Blue Jays, 2025. Whereas the Toronto Blue Jays played their first game at Grant Field in 1977, beating the New York Mets 3-1, and Dunedin has proudly been their spring training in minor league home ever since. Whereas Toronto is the only major league franchise to have only one spring training home, and this 49-year partnership and friendship has contributed to the economic well-being of Dunedin, the entertainment of our residents, the athletic development of our children, and the overall quality of life in our great city. Whereas generations of Canadians have made Dunedin their home away from home, and many visitors have embraced spring training. Whereas the annual spring training event has greatly contributed to Dunedin's and Pinellas County's economies, with fans visiting our shops and restaurants. Whereas under owner Rogers Communication, Mark Shapiro, President, Vice President of Florida Operations, Shelby Nelson. We hope this trend will continue as Major League Baseball is very important to the state of Florida, Pinellas County, and the great city of Dunedin. Now, therefore, I, Robert Walker, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the mayor of the city of Dunedin, Florida, and on behalf of the entire city commission, do hereby welcome back the Toronto Blue Jays to spring training in Dunedin, and encourage all citizens of Dunedin to catch the Blue Jays' fever, and cheer our home team as they begin their journey towards another championship season. We hope to see everyone at TD Ballpark for the Blue Jays' opening game on Saturday, February 22nd against the New York Yankees. Play ball. Commissioner Sandbergen has put on a hat now. Looking good. Looking good. And if you can see, we have a hat near your sign, and your empty chair right now. First off, Commission, thank you very much. It's great to be here again. Commissioner Duggar, welcome to, well, for me, welcome to the city commission, and obviously Commissioner Sandberg, and it's, I don't know, this seems like the first time I've been to one of these meetings with a Julie Bajowski here, so it feels a little bit odd to me, so it'll take a little bit of getting used to. But before I really get started, I just want to thank everybody here, leadership, all the departments in the city of Dunedin, emergency services, park and rec, public works, utilities, engineering, fire rescue, local sheriff department, everybody that helped during the hurricanes. You know, it's the first time I've been here since then, and I know how many extra hours and all the things that everybody had to do to get the city back up and running, and you know, on behalf of the Blue Jays and myself, I just want to thank everybody for everything that they did to be able to help everybody in this community. It was quite a trying time. I know it's still going on for many, but I just wanted to start off by thanking everybody here. We're all indebted to you and all the leaders in the community. Coming up is our 49th opening day for the Toronto Blue Jays and 49th opening day here in Dunedin. This is definitely, you know, a part of the fabric of the Blue Jays organization. I can't believe that this is my 17th year here. I know I've been here a long time when everybody around me seems to be leaving or retiring. So, just was around one of our sheriffs that was with us for many years. It's near his retirement last night, and as I'm talking about retirement, I think of somebody behind me that at least for 10 years has been telling me that he's about to retire, about to retire, about to retire. But finally, I know the date has come for Vince Gizzi, and you know, Vince has been a great partner of the Blue Jays for many, many years. You know, I was just telling the story today of Vince and I going to Arizona, checking out different ballparks there as we were going through what was hopefully going to be our renovation process here in Dunedin. Vince had a huge impact of keeping the Blue Jays here in Dunedin. He had a huge impact on everything that has happened for the Blue Jays here and then the whole city. And I just want to, you know, before this will be my last commission with him, although with everything I've seen here at the state of Dunedin, most people that retire end up coming back within a year, so maybe this isn't the last time. But I just wanted to thank Vince. I'd love, you know, we have Commissioner, or sorry, I'm used to saying Commissioner Freeney, sorry, Mayor Freeney. I'm throwing out the first pitch on opening day, but I want to send an invite right now to Vince Gizzi to throw out the first pitch for game two on the 25th versus the St. Louis Cardinals, and hopefully he's able to join us then. All right, perfect, perfect. So first you throw a strike, and then we'll see what he can do afterwards. No pressure, Vince, no pressure. So before I get into opening day, a little bit of that, we do have an event coming up. Welcome back, Blue Jays, which this goes well with on Saturday, the 15th. It's free to anybody. We're giving away free hot dogs. We have games. We have local businesses coming to support their businesses. Face painters, different things like that will be happening. We had last year, unfortunately, it rained. We still had a pretty good crowd this year. Hopefully that doesn't happen, and it's a beautiful day for everybody, and hopefully everyone in the community will just come out, see the beautiful ballpark, play some games, have their kids, enjoy some hot dogs and some cheap drinks and everything else. So just an open area to come out and have some fun. So please come out. Commission, I think you've all been invited already, so hopefully you're all there too. And opening day is on the 22nd versus the Yankees. We're getting pretty close to being sold out, so hopefully if you haven't bought your tickets, please go buy your tickets, or if not, buy any of the other 15 games that we have. Last year was our best attended spring training ever. We had over 100,000 people go through the gates. It was amazing. It was honestly, I think I shed a tear to see it. We've been waiting a long time post-COVID to get back to where we thought we'd be. So it was a great spring training. Excited for what this year has in store for us. I think the team's looking great. And I just want to thank all of you for all the support over the years, and go Blue Jays. And hold on just one second. I'm going to give the rest of us an opportunity. Vice Mayor, did you want to add anything? Go Blue Jays. Commissioner Walker. Yeah, really excited for this year. Looking forward to it. Commissioner DeGuard. This will make it very special for me. I've not been here as long as many of my colleagues have. And to be a part of opening day as a commissioner is just electric. I'm looking forward to it greatly. Thank you so much. I love the pen. That's good. That's a good one. I like that one. Yeah. He supplied the hat, too. Thank you. It was, you know, hopefully you're all going to be out on opening day, have some ceremonies pregame, and enjoy a beautiful day, and beautiful, delightful, done eating. It's always going to be delightful. I'm going to, you're not going to let me not say, I've got to say something, too. And that is, you know, being a huge baseball person, I'm super excited, and I will try not to embarrass anyone, especially myself with the first pitch. But I just, you know, this community is a special community, but a huge piece of that is our love for Toronto Blue Jays and our Canadian visitors that come and stay with us every year. So, just going to be an exciting season, and I'm very excited to experience it as mayor. But I'm just excited and proud of all of you, the Blue Jays, and proud to have you part of our community. So, 49 years. We've got to do something big next year. That's the hope. That's the hope. We've got a year to plan for it now, for sure. Anyway, thanks a lot. Thank you. Look forward to your opening ceremonies speech in a week and a half. That's good. Thank you. Oh, I guess we're going to get pictures here. Oh, the picture's on. Commissioner would still be up on the list. I should go over here. Okay, let's do it. A little closer. Great break my hand. A lot more sponsors. I'm not kidding. Yeah, here we go. All right, everybody. All right. Okay, great. Thank you. Are you allowed to put hats back there? We are. It's her? Yeah. Okay. Rules are suspended. I don't know. That's great. Who are you? Good at it. They're blue jay hats. They're blue jay hats. I soon need to get a picture of that. Okay. All right. Only my other hats were blue jay hats. Oh, wait. They are. Just for this meeting. Okay. Anyway. All right. We're going to move along to citizen input. So I'd ask, does anyone in the audience wish to speak on a topic that is not on the agenda? John. So name and address for the record. And I have three minutes. John Giddeau. 1426 Alamo Lane. In Ben Eden. Across from the Coke plant. Madam Mayor. Commissioners. NPR has a short bit called Can't Let It Go. It's about something a newscaster has on their mind, but it's not worthy of a news story, but it bothers them. They just have to let it go. And there's something I just can't let go of. And I'd like to share my can't let go story with you to start off the new year. According to the meeting agenda, speakers are given a full three minutes to speak, as I am right now. This is a great agenda item and gives residents an opportunity to communicate directly with the mayor and the city commissioners. And it signals open communication and transparency and trust between the city officials and the residents. What I'm having a hard time letting go is that this agenda item is not managed consistently. At the November 7th meeting, the first speaker spoke for three minutes and 41 seconds and was not stopped. But the third speaker was abruptly cut off at three minutes. And that speaker made the comment, you didn't stop the last guy, giving the impression that the commissioners seem to play favorites. And while I'm sure this is not the case, it gives the appearance of favoring some speakers over others. At the November 21st meeting, a speaker asked, when do you start the clock? And was told that the timer started when the speaker has asked for his or her name, which sometimes occurs when a speaker doesn't even get to the lectern and they're asking for the name and the clock has started. At the last meeting, the first speaker was allowed to speak three minutes and 51 seconds and the third speaker spoke over three minutes. My suggestion for remedy is simple. Don't start the clock until the speaker actually begins speaking on topic. Not when asked to give hers or her name or address or when they greet the commissioners or organize their notes. The agenda states speakers should limit all comments to a maximum of three minutes. Let's give each speaker three full minutes and not start the clock until they actually begin to speak on topic. Next, be consistent with the three-minute rule. Don't allow some folks to speak three, four, or five minutes and other folks cut off at three. The three-minute buzzer is not very loud and a nervous speaker doesn't always hear it. My suggestion would be to have Rebecca say, you have 15 seconds to wrap up at the two-minute and 45-second time to let the speaker know that. Make it very clear the time is up with a very distinct buzzer. And make it very clear that, and help to move that forward, I'm donating a buzzer to the city of Dunedin. I don't envy your job in balancing time, topics, and fairness. Please choose fairness over all else so I can finally let it go. You hear how quiet that is? Now here's my buzzer I'm going to give you. I probably am going to have to cut you off. Thank you, John. Thank you, John. And we will absolutely consider your comments. Thank you for your input. Okay, anyone else in the audience wishing to come forward and speak on any issue that's not on the agenda? Okay, seeing none, we will move to our action items. Our first action item is former City Hall design criteria renderings for our park, the old City Hall park. And we have a staff presentation with Bob, with Jonathan Toner, Tara. I'll let you say the name of the company, so I'll let you go ahead, Bob. Mayor, Vice Mayor of Commission, Bob Ironsmith, Economic Development Director. Pleased to present to you some design concepts for the former City Hall. I'm sorry? Yeah, it's on. Can you hear me? Can you get closer? Okay. Bob Ironsmith, Economic Development Director for the City of Dunedin. And excited to be here today to present some design concepts and rendering for the former City Hall. As you recall, we're certainly in this beautiful building, but we had the other building, and we wanted to make sure that we had a nice little pocket park for that. I've got a great team today. We have Jonathan Toner and Birgit, Jonathan's a landscape architect. Birgit is a landscape architect, also an arborist, by the way, and speaks six languages, which absolutely amazes me that someone can do that. And then we've got Vince Gizzi, Parks and Recreation Director, and I have Nicole Delfino for any art-type expression aspects that might come up during the presentation. But what I'd like to do is go through a PowerPoint, and then certainly I'll have Jonathan and Birgit up at the front here that can field some questions relative to the overall concept. So come on up. You know, obviously the building was vacated. It sat there for a bit. Obviously it's had a great history, former library, and obviously it's a City Hall for many years, one that we all had some presentations to. We had the engineering study done. Obviously the building became obsolete. It wasn't functional or able to be repurposed. So we went ahead and did the demolition of it. And while we did that, asbestos was found. And that complicated things because obviously it has to be taken care of in a special way. So we went through the asbestos removal. Then we started to begin the repurposing of it to come up with some type of concept drawings for it. Oh, am I still not loud enough? I'm surprised. Okay. I usually have a pretty loud voice. At least that's what my wife tells me. But okay. So anyway, I'm doing my best. We've had a lot of community engagement on this. You know, we started it with City Commission back in 23. Then we did the demolition there in August of 23. Then we went ahead and retained Maison Blau and Territektronics, which is with Jonathan and Birgit are here. And then, of course, we went before our Parks and Advisory Committee. And then we also went before the Community Redevelopment Advisory Committee. We wanted to make sure that we had quite a bit of input. The site elements, this is really what the basis or the core, if you will, for starting. That's much better. Thank you. For the pocket park. We wanted to make sure that it had various components in it. It's going to be a respite. It was part of the deep. If you remember the downtown East End plan, this was something that was going to reinvigorate the East End. We had the gateway, which will still come. We had the Skinner. We had the City Hall property. So this was all part of it. There was things that we wanted to make sure that stayed there. Shade was an important element of it. Those trees there are just spectacular. We wanted to make sure we didn't disrupt or hurt the trees in any shape or form. Because, frankly, you can't replace 100-year-old type oak trees out there. And we wanted to make sure that it also had some type of landscape and fit in with the downtown well. Terratectronics, they were retained. That's who's here today. We did some various things. We did a tree survey. We wanted to make sure we had gotten input. Don't do a water feature. It's just very problematic. So we stayed away from any type of water feature. And we also wanted to look at identifying those elements and make sure it had great landscape and hardscape to it also. This is the final site plan. And Jonathan's here. He's kind of the designer, landscape architect. That area that's shown there is kind of in contrary to what the floor plan of the old City Hall was. And, in fact, I know Jonathan's going to talk a little bit about it. The actual plan is about 30% less than what was there originally on the floor plan. And Jonathan can speak more on that. But maybe what I'll do, Mayor, if it makes sense, I'll go through this PowerPoint and come back to the slides as questions arise. Okay. I'll just go through it. These are the concept renderings. You need to understand that perspective shows a lot of brick there. That's just kind of the view and the angle. There is no increase in brick as far as coming into City Hall as what's there today. And Jonathan can talk about that a little bit more. The bathroom in the background I know has received comment is just a graphic placeholder. The bathrooms were going to be in the budget for the following year or the budget cycle that's coming up. We wouldn't be happy with the bathroom looking just the way it is. It would need to be architectural and fit in with our downtown. But we had to make sure where it was going to be. We have a well site, if you recall, just to the west that's on this property. We need to be a certain distance from that well site. We also want to take advantage, and Jorge was important here, the existing utilities that were there. There's no sense recreating them. So we wanted to logistically put the bathroom there. This shows, obviously, the brick paver area. It shows the pergolo. A nice architectural feature. It's a gathering place. It has seating. It's a nice place for a little, small venue. You could do Shakespeare in the park. You could have a small, little band or something along those lines. It is not Pioneer Park. It's more of a respite-type area. This is another perspective of it. You can see the beautiful trees. We wanted to make sure stayed in place. Again, that's just a picture of the bathroom. But please don't focus on it. It was strictly a placeholder, something that we're going to put in the budget for next year. That's kind of a cool night shot that Jonathan put together that kind of shows how cool this thing can look. That night, which we think is a very important ingredient in our downtown ambiance. Phase 2 restroom. Again, we think it's an important ingredient. We want to put it in for the budget for next year. It's something that would have a lot more architectural features than what you see with this just a placeholder graphic. That's just another shot of kind of the size of the bathroom. Our costs for this. We're somewhere just sub $400,000. You see the $383,000 number. Bathrooms would be $500,000 or $600,000. That would be something that's budgeted for the following year, coming up in the budget cycle. And then the art aspect is something that I know Nicole Delfino will work on if, you know, art expression. There's been various things that have been considered for the art there. And she can talk a little bit more about that. We started here with about $600,000. $300,000 of CRA, $300,000 of penny. Public art could be funded maybe with some possible grants. And our budget is somewhere around the $475,000 number. We wanted to have a contingency. We also wanted to make sure that we maybe could forward some additional dollars to go toward the bathroom for next year. So it's somewhere around the $475,000 number. Our next step is really to receive input today to make any revisions, to take any consideration of your comments. With that in mind, then we'd go to full design, preparing bid documents. And then we'd go out to bid. So we would look for this thing probably the construction to start four or six months. I'd love to get this completed somewhere in that October to December timeframe this year. I know it's been out there for a while. We've shrunk defense a few times, taking into consideration some of the merchant comments. But we'd really like to start to move forward. So at this point in time, what I'd like to do is turn it to questions that you have and have Jonathan, the landscape architect, field your questions. And, of course, Vince and Nicole are also available. Okay. I'll start over here with Vice Mayor. Thank you, Mayor. Bob, thank you for bringing this forward. I think if I can speak for the community, I think we're all excited to, in the future, see that fence come down and something in its place. Absolutely. What do you, how do you envision this park, the use of it, a year from now? Who, what is going to occupy that space on any given, I'll say, weekend? Vice Mayor, I think the people that will occupy that space will be, not considering special events, but just on a daily-type basis. It will be people that will go ahead and get a bite to eat and want to sit on the brick seating wall. I see it maybe for a small gathering. I could even see someone, if they wanted to do a small kind of wedding, could even do that and take some pictures in there. It's going to be a beautiful spot. So I see it as part of the East End respite, shade, take a break, use the bathroom, look at your cell phone, maybe get some lunch or dinner, sit there. And that's how I see it. It's different than a Pioneer Park, which is a more active type format that coincides with special events. We wanted to make sure that we were sensitive to these trees and to the overall green and the landscaped area. We wanted to make this just a beautiful setting. So I think people that are walking by, if they have an ice cream cone or they're having a sushi or something like that, what a great place to sit and do that. Can we go one slide back? Sure. Of course. That one? Yes, sir. Okay. I'm just curious on the left, I'm curious what the circle is. Certainly. I'm going to turn it to Jonathan here. But for the... That is the majority of the paving is the designated paver approved by City of Dunedin, the new paver that's going in. And we designated that area as a circle underneath the pergola of an alternative paver. It's called an iron spot brick. It's called an iron spot brick. It's very hard and heavy. And it's made to designate sort of a seating area or an area for like acoustic guitar performance or small outdoor theater performance. And it's sort of the center point focus. And the pergola goes around it. So it's sort of a center focus of that open space. And that brick, just by looking at this view, it looks like that is a brick that's going on top of an already existing brick. And it seems to be raised a little bit. It's going on top of the slab of the existing City Hall building. So instead of taking out the slab and possibly doing damage to the oak tree, we're actually... And also, it's at the entryway, too. We're taking up the brick that's there. And then we're raising the grade up and leveling it off. And then putting new brick on top of that entry that's there and on top of the old slab. So it's actually taking advantage of the slab. That's going to use that as the foundation. Jonathan, if I could. But I think the Vice Mayor's comment is just the rendering seems to almost create like a lip. I think he's asking, is there an actual lip? Oh, a lip on the other, the darker brick color? No, it's to be flush. It will be flush. Yeah, everything here is ADA accessible ramps and so forth. There's no steps. The last thing we need to do is build a trip and fall situation. No, we wouldn't. Yeah. We have enough of those. Okay, thank you for that. I know that the bathrooms are a placeholder. And I get that. But my question was, right now in the renderings, it seems to be, from what I understood, two stall per gender. Right? So you've got two men, two women. And it's a public bathroom, just is two enough? What are other cities doing? And it's a public restroom. We're inviting the public there, in addition to just the events that we hold in our downtown. So I'm just wondering if two are enough. Well, you know, I guess I'm going to have Jonathan talk on that. But, you know, we wanted to be sensitive that we didn't dominate this area either, you know, with such a big building. I guess, you know, it's kind of like, you know, special events are certainly bringing the additional portable bathrooms, you know. So it will never meet that type of test. But I think for this rather lower key type area, I think it's going to be well used. But I think we're going to be okay. But I'm going to let Jonathan add to that. Yeah, if we could go back to the site plan. I don't know where it is on the backwards. There. We have limited space on the site. We have the big oak tree that's down to the right of the entry ramp. And we're trying to stay out of that whole area with construction. And this location of that bathroom is actually under the canopy of that oak. And that's about as close as we want to get. And that's a two-seat bathroom. So if you go bigger, it's going to have to slide even more under the tree because the end of the bathroom currently is almost touching the sidewalk on Grant Street. So you'd have to move it even further. And it creates more interference with the oak tree. And the utilities for the existing building are right where that bathroom is. So if we made it bigger, we'd have to start excavating. And so the whole idea is to use what's there and keep the cost minimal and keep construction minimal. I think the bathroom is suitable for pretty much 360 days a year. And then for the five special events, then the supplemental bathrooms, of course, is probably going to be needed for St. Patrick's Day and things like that. And I don't remember you mentioned it. You might have, Bob, but where the restrooms are being proposed is where the old restrooms used to be in the old city hall or library. Correct. Right. So the public, just so they're aware of why that location is. Yes, it's in the general vicinity. The plumbing is already there. Yes, it's in the general vicinity. As Jonathan mentioned, we wanted to not disturb the existing stub outs that are in place so that we could minimize the site work costs. And then the prefab restroom building, as Bob indicated, it's a placeholder. There are abilities to do our architectural features, cladding, basically make it look how we need it to match the surrounding areas. And these prefab structures are such that they provide a utility chase. So if you have to do any maintenance in the future, you actually can do it from the inside chase area without having to basically rip up the bathroom. You can work from the backside. Yeah, there's really the three things, the tree being 100 feet separation from the well site, and then, you know, also not to dominate. So that's a consideration, I guess. Certainly nothing says quaint like a prefab bathroom. No, no, trust me, that will not. Very nice. And I do, I know there might be others that are kind of disappointed in the lack of water feature, but, yeah, thank you for that. I know it's not your choice, I get it, but it was just, I think, the simpler, the better. And I know that you did mention this, but of the, and I'm glad we're at this slide, how much of where the brick is, is the old foundation? I'm going to let Jonathan talk about it, but I think it was 30% less, but go ahead. Yeah, the, does this pointer work up there? Probably not. I don't know if it works on the screen. There's a line, there's a line underneath the big oval where the proposed pavers are. It goes up, zigzags back, and comes back. That's the existing slab that's currently there. It's showing on that drawing. It's a little faint, but it's underneath that oval of pavers. You see this zigzag line. Okay. I get it. The jagged line. So it's, okay, to the east. It's on the east side of the. Right. And the existing slab actually extended past the bench out into the green space and beyond the edge of the proposed. Yeah, there was a brick patio, too, behind City Hall, if you remember that. Right. And so my question is, too much brick is my comment. Is there, is there a way to, since we've reduced part of that foundation, is there a way to reduce the diameter of the plan to use less brick without having the existing foundation? Right. Because I can see where you're kind of following the original outline, but it's just too much brick for my concern. I understand. Are there going to go with natural beauty, grass? Yeah, no, I understand. I mean, I'm just looking at it proportionally. It's still a big green area, but I'll certainly defer to the landscape market. We are utilizing the ramp from Main Street that's there now, and that's what you see from the south going north. That's existing. The two brick walls there are existing that we're going to rebuild and refinish. So that leads to the existing slab that was there that we're going up and over. And then the bathroom being where it is and putting brick on top of the slab, we've raised it another about five inches to put the brick on top of leveling course and so forth. So we end up with the bathroom is about two feet above the sidewalk. So in order to get to the bathroom, we have to have an ADA ramp from Grand Street ramping up onto the slab, and that's the walkway that's on the upper right. There's an existing sidewalk there now, but the sidewalk ends up basically where the bathroom is that we're going to take out. So when you come up the ramp, you need to enter onto a hard surface to meet ADA requirements, and that's why it connects from the ramp on the south to the ramp on the north with brick. Okay. So, and I've been saying the term brick, and we all kind of have. It's pavers. It is pavers, and they are porous? Yes. Okay. All right. And so, and I didn't, right, I guess if it's on top of the foundation, what is that drop-off along that diameter? How are we taking care of people not falling off? That's, yeah, Jorge can talk about it. That's why we have the fence out there now because of the safety aspect, but we're going to have to bring in some fill, I think, and grade it. Go ahead. Yeah, actually, and Vince's staff in the interim did some grading to bring it up to me because if you recall, you know, the former building, the slab itself, there was a drop-off from there to existing grade. So I assume, I'll let Jonathan elaborate, but once we have this perimeter of the paver designation, then we would grade up to that so there's not a drop-off. On the bathroom side, there is a, the bathroom sits on a retaining wall that's about 18 inches, and there is a bench from the bathroom to the ramp on the north side, so the bench is two feet wide, and that serves as your barrier so you don't step off, and there's a bench on the south side of the bathroom that also acts as the barrier, and then from the rest of it, the grade comes up and is flush with the hard surface. Okay, so it's a grade on the west side. Okay, all righty. I believe those are all my questions. Just indulge me on one comment, Mayor. Would be, if you could, and Bob, I mentioned this to you before the meeting, take a look at that Grand Oak that is on the main street, if you're right, looking at Old City Hall on the right. I just want it to be as healthy as it can be before we start this, because I don't want, for any reason, we go through this and something happens to that tree. Even though it's not our fault, we will get blamed for it, and so I just want to make sure that that occurs. Understood. Well, I know Vince is here. We'll get Rick Arvis to take a look at that. Sure. Thank you. Thank you, Mayor. Sure. Commissioner Sandbergen, we can get to you. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Mayor. Any questions? You can tell I'm getting over my flu. You know, Jeff was talking about that. Is that one big tree, that Grand Oak? Yes, the tree, the black dot circle just above Main Street to the right of the ramp, that is the existing tree, the big, giant, 200-year-old oak. Yeah, you know, I walked by there recently. You know, some of those limbs are even reaching to the ground. It just seems like the more access to that park, that's a real nuisance. You know, in that picture, it's cleaned up. I think that's not actually the tree, is it? Because it seems like there's more branches that grow out of the ground. The rendering is not the actual tree. It's impossible. And it's beautiful, but for some reason, it sure looks like it would be attractive for kids to go and play in. I know we're trying to take care of that tree, but we've got to make sure that area is secure. There was another, can you hear me? Yes, I am. There was something called an artistic expression, artistic expression wall. What is that, and who will use that? Nicole's going to come up. Yeah, I think that's another little bit of a placeholder that we're looking at. I think there was some thought here that there could be a good opportunity for some type of artistic expression out there. So I'll let Nicole handle that. Hi, Nicole. Good evening. Hello, Mayor, Commissioners. Nicole Delfino, Strategy and Sustainability Manager. For now, you mentioned artistic wall, and I want to just distinguish. We have talked about putting public art on this site, but it is not structurally tied to anything that you're seeing here at this point. We're looking at maybe something in the grass area, very preliminary. As you know, public art follows a process of an RFP and so on and so forth, so we really don't have any conceptual designs or ideas as to what that will look like. We'll follow the art process when we get to that point, but something that is engaging, potentially interactive, something that people might want to take a photo with. We're not sure. We just kind of initially talked about some ideas of it being a place where people would want to go to and check it out. And the last thing, Bob, is there any change, any reduction in the number of parking spots along Grand Street there? No, not this time there is not. No, not this time. You know, I know that the Rock House has been looking at some stuff, but at this point in time, no, I'm not looking to do that. Obviously, parking is pretty critical. Okay. That's all I had. Thank you, Mayor. Thank you. Commissioner Walker. Thank you, Mayor. So, all the black dots on that map, those are existing trees, right? Correct. Okay. And, you know, maybe I missed this, but back when the building was demolished and all of that, I vaguely recall that there was an issue. Well, not an issue, but the slab turns out. It turns out it was a lot thicker than what you all thought it was, right? Yes. And so, subsequently, the decision was made not to demolish the slab because of its potential impact on the trees, right? That's correct. Okay. All right. I'm just confirming that. And what were the reasons that we did not end up going over the water feature? Some of the input that came back from us is that it's very tough to maintain. It can become a safety issue. All those oak trees are out there. It's going to be continual leaves and pumps and filters and maintenance. So, it just didn't seem the ideal spot for a water feature there with all the trees and the canopy that's there. Okay. Yeah, I don't think I have any additional questions. I'm really glad we're moving this forward, though. I think this is really going to be a nice little pocket. Yeah, I think it will be, too. And, you know, just to pick up on what Vice Mayor Gao said, you know, it's understated. It's functional. It's practical. It's aesthetic. It fits in. There isn't too many things going on there. So, I think it takes into consideration, really, the trees and the nature that's out there, which we wanted to do. Yeah. Great. Thank you. Commissioner DeGuard. Thank you, Mayor. This is a project that checks all the boxes, as far as I'm concerned. But I'm a little confused. It almost appears to be a quasi-venue for small events or entertainment, if you will. And I didn't see that anywhere on the site elements when I was looking through it. But clearly, the way the pergola is set up, it's almost as though when we're talking about it being something of an entertainment venue for small groups and things like that. Was that a vision we had? Yeah, there was a little bit of discussion on that. You know, pocket parks are funny. It's kind of like a college campus. You don't always want to build the sidewalk because you don't know exactly where people are going to walk. So, we were trying to touch base with everything. So, it wasn't designed with that just as the number one premise, but we also wanted to leave it open for something like a Shakespeare in a Park or a small little entertainment venue. We didn't want to also not have that since Dunedin is so big on celebrations and things of that nature. So, does that answer your question, Commissioner? It does. Yes, it does. And I think that as we go forward, by the way, all the questions were appropriate. I liked all the answers to this. But if this is going to be a quasi-small event location, somewhat Disney-esque in approach, you may want to look at electrical and things like that that would support it a little bit more. Do we have that on those elements inside here? You know, Commissioner, a great question. Yes, we are looking to have an electrical capability. We wanted to make sure there was nice lighting out there, and we also wanted to have the electrical capability for that. And I can let Jonathan answer that question. We have an electrical engineer on board currently working on the plans, and that was all part of the project design, and they're wrapping up that work right now. So, there's going to be outlets at the pergola. There's lighting underneath each one of the benches, so it's indirect lighting. There's going to be lighting in the pergola, lighting at the bathroom. So, it's all going to be a well-lit park, and then there's potentially, we're talking Wi-Fi. Yeah, free Wi-Fi out there. Wi-Fi for the city to be located there. And then, like we said, outlets. It's designed to be non-amplified music. If anybody was there, you're not going to have a big band. It would just be like acoustic guitars or something. It's very simple. We wanted to be sensitive, yeah, to the surrounding area. And, by the way, I concur completely with the removal of the water feature. I come from Kansas City, which is known as the city of fountains in the United States. And there's nothing as fun as watching, after a football game, the bubbles coming out of the fountains because everybody's celebrating by throwing soap and things such as that into the fountains. So, I assure you, that's a good decision. Thank you. That's all my questions. Great. So, I have a couple. So, we don't want to do, like, the shooting up water, right? Up from the ground? Oh, a fountain type. No. The kids would love it. I mean, they'd be there all the time. They would love it. I think it's your part of it. I think it's a great spray park there with Vince Gizzy up at Highlander. I just wanted to see how you fielded that question, Bob. Sure. So, let me ask you about the restrooms. So, why do you think it's important? I mean, restrooms can have pros and cons, right? So, why do you think it's important to do the restroom, even though we're not deciding that immediately? I do. I think it's part of the east end. You know, we're starting to, you know, when we started, obviously, our downtown, it continues to go toward the east end. Now, we've got Skinner Boulevard. So, I think having that type of restroom activity there is fine. You're right. There's always pros and cons. But I think we're able to make sure there's time sensitive. I talked to Jorge earlier. He can talk a little bit more about the magnetic doors and stuff and make sure it's closed at a certain hour. But I think it's important on the east end to have that. And I think the merchants would certainly relish that. They don't want to see people coming into their place. So, if you go and have a hot dog or you do something and you need a restroom, boom, you're right across the street. Yeah. And actually, Jorge, we talked a little bit about that. Do you want to just add to that? Like, with some of the technology today, you can do, like, the automatic locks at night. Yeah. We've actually started implementing that at restrooms throughout the city. So, the facilities has those, the ability to install those on the restrooms. They're magnetic locks. They're set on timers. You know, if we have a power outage or whatever, they may have to be reset. But we set them to certain times for them to lock in the evenings and then reopen again in the mornings so that you don't have somebody essentially sleeping in a restroom overnight. But, and I think, as Bob mentioned, in the original downtown east end plan, it had indicated that there was a preference to have a restroom on this end. And, you know, being somebody who just lives down the street, it'd be nice to not have to walk all the way over to the boxcar to go to the restroom. That's just me. So, I've noticed Pioneer Park's looking a little sad in our grass. Just, I mean, so, I take it this isn't big enough to do our farmer's market? No. Not even close, probably. Right, right. You know, we do go to the museum, as you know, in the summer. But, yeah, this isn't that kind of location for it. Okay. How much of the old brick is actually going to be part of the new design? The walls of the ramp that, when you walk up, those are all being saved and going to be restored and rebuilt. And the pavers that are there are all coming out up until the sidewalk up to the intersection. That's all going to be replaced with the new pavers, the new paver type. And that's just because safety, really? Well, we're raising the grade up to get up on top of the slab, so it all has to come up. So, there's no reason to take them out and reuse them if we've got a new, if the city has a new paver choice, a new paver type. Yeah. We're revamping the brick pavers down there. We happen to see the old brick. A lot of times, we store it. We bring it over to facilities if we have a situation that we need it. So, we'll try to use it as much as we can. But, yeah, there certainly will be leftover brick pavers. These are clay pavers as opposed to concrete. And, Mayor, if I could, and Bob kind of elaborated on it when he was discussing the available budget. The intent is, when we structure the bid documents for this, is to have the base bid, which is the bulk of the project that you're seeing this evening. But we'd also like to interject bid alternates that would allow us to replace the existing pavers that border the site along Main, Grant, and, if possible, along Highland as well, similar to what was done in front of Costantinus. So, if we're going to develop the site and put the new pavers on the site, it'd be nice to have the perimeter pavers match. We'll try to do that to the extent that the budget funding is available. But, by having a bid alternate, we can draw a price. And, if there's available budget, then we can include that in the award recommendation. So, I was trying to understand that. Does that mean, too, that the Grant Street sidewalk would all be, that's part of the bid alternate, Grant Street sidewalk, to be all pavers? Or am I off base on what we're talking about? Mostly Main Street. But, to go ahead. Yeah. I mean, we can make them separate, like bid alternate one, two, and three. And then, depending on how much available funding is. Because, to me, that whole park becomes part of our Main Street. Which means, you know, if we can, you know, the pavers would be great all around it. Ideally, it would be nice, if you get a brand new park, not to have tired pages. Right. We'd have to come back and disturb the pedestrian access in the future to rebuild it. Well, because the frontage properties then become high new and the Rock House. Correct. So, you kind of want that to blend into the whole downtown. So, and I know that's a financial decision we can make, but. Yeah. Can I ask a follow-up to the brick question? Yeah, go ahead. Is any of that brick at the Old City Hall that we're talking about, if we choose not to use it, is that the same type of brick that we could use in roads? Yeah. Or is that a different brick? No, I think Jorge can talk. Usually brick is 2 and 3 eighths, and I think the road is 3 and 1 eighths. Yeah. I'll let Jonathan elaborate, but, you know, the pavers that were, if you remember, outside the Old City Hall conference room, there was an area that had, like, some picnic benches. Those were traditional St. Augustine, like, brick pavers for roadways. But I think the portion that's along the bench seating, if you recall, the former mayor wanted to try to keep that, that's not a road paver, that's a different type of, or, I'm sorry, I'm saying paver, it's not a road brick, it's a more, a planter type brick. Correct. Just thinking about a way to repurpose. Sure, go ahead. So, if, based on that, you know, there are areas around Dunedin that are prone to potholes and degradation of the existing brick underneath that, so that could, that actually could be used, those bricks could actually be used for repair on those too, right? During the demolition, Bob described earlier, a lot of, some of those bricks were salvaged, but some were in such a condition that it became part of the demolition process, but we were able to salvage some, if I recall. Yeah, we can, we can look, just where he mentioned salvage, and it'll go over to facilities, and when there's an opportunity, yeah, we'll have them, I mean, obviously they're, you know, clay brick is nice, it lasts a very, very long time, you know, concrete pavers tend to fade out over time, so. Okay, and then the other thing, I just kind of wanted to understand, the corner, how will it be different from what the corner is now with the flagpole? Well, the corner where the tree is, that, between Grant and Main? Right, yeah, would be Grant and Main. It's going to remain very similar. We plan to leave the flagpole area and the sign to remain, and we talked about some of that wrought iron be renovated and cleaned up, but that's going to remain as is. And we're going to relandscape that corner and get rid of some of that tie plants and some of that other stuff. We talked about, there was a proposed suggestion to replant all the areas underneath the oak tree, but because what's there is like Asian jasmine, most of it. And, but in order to get the Asian jasmine out of the existing oak tree roots, either spray it with an herbicide, which is not good for anything, or you start pulling it out by hand and you'll never get it all out. It's been in there for such a long time. And then you start disturbing the roots of the oak tree. So, the decision was made to basically leave almost everything that's there as is, and then we're just going to relandscape around that bench wall and then, of course, the bathroom and so forth. But we're going to keep probably that little Ilex also that's out there on Grant Street and keep the big oak tree and then just maintain what's there. So, the planting choices aren't ideal, but they're there and they're really difficult to remove, that ground cover that's pretty much wetted into the roots of the tree. That is definitely a sprawling tree. And my last question really is, the tree, I mean, it's held together by the, you know, the chains or whatever. I mean, is that, like, all that is good, it's solid, it's stable? I didn't look at it as a, I'm an arborist also, but the cabling that's in there is actually very secure and the tree is actually growing around the cabling. So, it is taken it, it's secure. I mean, that is, that's cables like inch thick, nothing's going to break that. I would guess the tree is at least 200 years old. It's well past 100, it's probably 250. Trees, live oaks will live, there's some up in New Orleans that are probably 350 years old, that were planted way back in the 1700s, that are still doing fine. So, in an urban environment, they don't tend to do as well, and half of this tree's root mass is underneath asphalt roadway. But it has adapted for the last, that road's been in for 100 years, so it's adapted to that condition. And we're not doing anything to change that condition, it's remaining just as it is, so I would suspect at least another 100 years out of that tree. That's why I don't want to go in and start pulling plants out from under it and disturbing tree roots. Trees go, they, trees are on an arc, they thrive, they reach a peak, and then they slowly decline. And this one's probably at a peak and on its way for a very long decline, so you don't want to do anything to disrupt that cycle. So we're keeping the disturbance to a minimum underneath the tree. But I don't see doing anything different. I don't see fertilizing. If you start fertilizing an older tree, it's like sending an old person out on a marathon, you know? It's like, you know, you'll just do more damage than good, you know? So leave the tree alone and just, you know, save a good tree and stay out of its way. Maybe not the best analogy. I love that analogy. That's awesome. No, no, I mean, I actually worked in that building when they originally, you know, secured it. And if I recall, it was like $25,000, which at the time was a lot to save a tree. Hard, it's worked. Yeah. Yeah. It's been successful. Yeah. Anyway. Okay, great. Okay, so, okay, we're going to go ahead and open public hearing on this. So if anyone in the audience wishes to speak to this, please come forward. And you have name, address, and three minutes. Good evening. Mike Short, 946 Highland Avenue. Two, first of all, I want to say that I'm personally very frustrated about the lack of citizen input. I know Bob said that a lot has happened. I've attended multiple meetings, both Parks and Rec as well as CRA. And typically, I would probably be the only citizen there. So to say that there was a lot of citizen input is not a valid statement from my perspective. Number two, not installing the bathrooms in the first phase. That is really not a good idea either from my perspective. Clearly, we know there are other projects that the city is choosing to fund via loan funds to go ahead and get those in and done. This would be another one from my perspective that you should just go ahead and plan to do that now. There's no guarantee that the costs that are presented today relative to the next phase are even going to be valid. So I think we should be sharpening our pencils and potentially looking at taking out the loan to make it a one-and-done project, not having to come back again, because that's extra project management overhead to create yet a second project, which is not a good idea either. And then finally, my last comment is very frustrated with how slow this has progressed. So I've gone and attended multiple meetings, asked about this project, and this is the first time I've seen a rendering. I don't know that there was any citizen input relative to these renderings. I can tell you the pergola is not really needed to say that the site needs more shade. Clearly, you haven't walked it, as I have many times. There is plenty of shade already on the site. And what you'll see, that's going to add expense and ongoing maintenance costs to have that when it's not really needed. Yes, it's a nice piece of pergola, but from my perspective, the wall and the other things are fine, which are much lower maintenance costs from an overall city perspective. Thank you for your time and appreciate your input. Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay, anyone else wish to come forward and speak to this issue, provide input. Name and address in three minutes. Tracy Short, 946 Highland Avenue, Unit 43. Wasn't prepared to speak, but my husband didn't bring it up. He did, in fact, the saying that we haven't had a lot of citizen input. And this would be a perfect opportunity for Dunedin to actually live up to its pseudoname, which is Dog Eden. And I don't think it was even considered as any type of dog park. There's a lot of dogs that walk this area, we know, because we live two blocks from there. And there is the Wolfgang grooming place. We've gone down to Broward County, and they have dog parks there that are actually revenue producing. And they actually have, and I know it's a bit more administrative work, but they actually sell a card for a year. It's $25 for people to go ahead and make sure that their dogs have their shots and have their, you know, have all their, are healthy and those type of things. And they have a gate that it, that lock, that you, you basically swipe into. And, you know, I, I would have liked to have been able to provide that before, you know, we got to the, this, the input to, before we got this far along. Because we don't have a dog park in Dunedin proper. I know we have the Achieve a dog park, but there's nothing walkable within Dunedin, and, you know, we're not making any more land. So, um, just wanted to share that, that input. Thank you, Tracy. Thank you. Appreciate that. Okay. Anyone else in the audience wish to come forward and speak on this issue? Okay. Um, Vince, can I just ask you, um, just in terms of that with dogs, I mean, dogs will be allowed here, correct? Vince Gizzy, Parks and Recreation Director. Um, yes, we have a, a leash law. The dogs would need to be on leash in, in our, in our parks. We also, we have the Achieve a Dog Park that we have a public-private partnership with. And we also have off-leash hours at Hammock Park. But dogs would be allowed in the park as long as they're on a leash. Okay. I mean, would you see this as a good site for a dog park? I, personally, I don't. An off-leash dog park. We'd have to have, you'd have to put fencing around it. You'd have to have a, uh, an entryway in, an entryway out. I, I, it would, I know you mentioned the grass at Pioneer Park. Of course, that's mostly because of the, the cold weather and the compaction from two markets, uh, uh, a weekend. And all the other activities there. And as much rye as we put down, it's just hard to keep it green right now. But the, um, uh, I, I, I think that if we had an off-leash dog park there, the grass would turn to dirt. Okay. And, um, but it obviously shows we, we still are in search of a good spot for a good dog park. And I get that 100%. But on leashes, they're, they're, they're fine. Okay, good, but those to be allowed. Okay, thank you. Um, okay, anyone else again? Um, seeing no one else, I'm going to close the public hearing and ask for a, uh, maker of the motion to approve, uh, the plan. So moved. Second. Okay, I got Commissioner Walker and I got Commissioner Dugard. And so I will go to, um, Commission comments and I will start with Commissioner Walker. Thank you, Mayor. Uh, actually, I, uh, I do have a question. Um, the, uh, why, why is the bathroom phased as it is? Uh, financial consideration, obviously, with everything going on, the hurricanes and storms and stuff like that. City manager felt it was best to put in the budget for next year. And, uh, so what could happen, excuse, excuse me, Commissioner, and, and Horry can speak to this a little bit. If, if, if, if it gets in the budget for next year, remember that's October. Uh, so it could be a situation where this is under construction and it could still be an opportunity to take the funding in October. I don't know, Horry, if you got a thought on that one. I was just think, trying to think it through. I mean, we could sequence it, uh, later, um, much to the vice mayor's dismay. We can, we can do a, a prefab restroom, go through the architectural review process, and, and make sure that the cladding and, and the design is such that it's comparable to, to the area. Um, we could sequence it such that the site work could be done, the, the area where the, the restroom is going to be constructed, prepped, and then, because this is, this will be a separate company that would, would deliver and, and install it, if, if you recall several years ago. Um, Elizabeth Skinner Park, there used to be an older restroom, and we actually had this thing delivered on a semi, gets picked up by a crane and set in place. So, um, we could do something similar to that if, if the sequencing is such, and the commission's desire is such to fund it in 26, then we could potentially sequence the work such that the site work is done, the landscaping is done, and then the restroom is delivered and installed early in the fiscal year. It takes some coordination, but it, it could be, it could be done. And, yeah, and as Jorge said, we could go through the, you know, architectural review committee on what the, you know, statics and siding and things, and we could go ahead and certainly, uh, retain, you know, architect to go ahead and come up with that. So, uh, a little, a little bit tricky, but as Jorge said, it could be done, yeah. Yeah, because I, if I, you know, if I kind of understand the, the, the budget for this, um, you know, you're, you're at 475,000 with building room for contingency. And I get that, um, but then, you know, that kind of begs the question, well, how much does, does a bathroom cost? And, you know, if I, you know, I personally think it would be great if we could get it all done in one fell swoop. Um, I, I didn't think about the architectural review part of this, but, I mean, is there anything we can do, um, in advance to at least facilitate that to a more rapid decision? I believe in a recent architectural review committee meeting, they, you know, were aware that this item was coming for the commission this evening and, and understood that the restroom is a future phase. Um, but, um, they would be interested in being involved in that process and we could engage that ahead of time, but, you know, it's, we could get with the, the vendor that provides the pre, the prefab restrooms. And then what are the available features that you can add to it as far as aesthetics and obviously there's a cost associated with that and try to get a feel for that as we go through the 26 budget process. Um, that would have to get obviously permitted through the building department and we'd want to engage the architectural review committee. They've indicated they want to be involved, so. Yeah, we could, excuse me, Jorge, we could retain the architect to come up with the sketches and renderings and bring it for architectural review. You know, that's something that could be done the next three months or so and certainly, yeah. But again, you know, that there's a cost associated with it. Yes, there is. There is a cost to get a consultant on board to do that, so. Thank you. Is that a cost more than if we postpone it? The cost to do the design is not. I haven't, you know, Jonathan, I'm going to defer to you a little bit. I think costs have been kind of constant lately. I don't know. I haven't really seen them coming down or up, but I'm not exactly. For the design or for the buildings? The buildings cost? For the building, I guess the cost savings would be, as you all mentioned, the project management, you know, the mobilization, Jorge, that all would. Right, that's a significant cost. Yeah. When you turn it into two projects, you have a mobilization fee, a contractor's cost, and you double it when you have two projects. And it would be more economical to do it all at once. We also have, if the bathroom's not there, then we have a void, and it's where the existing utilities are. So we've got a phase one and a phase two plan. The phase one shows the building gone with that landscape. Phase two, you come back, and then you build the retaining wall and the slab for the building to go on. So there's a little bit of construction at phase two that's not part of phase one for the bathroom. And you do have the completion target date for phase one is first quarter of 26, so that could match the budget for the new year. Yeah, I think it's a situation where Jorge, Jennifer, myself, I guess, get together, and maybe Doug Hudson's too, and figure out if that's a consensus. Well, I mean, I don't know if it's a consensus. I mean, we have a lot of capital issues that we're going to see during the budget. I'm a little bit concerned about trying to jump in here and add a $600,000 cost that staff hasn't thought about for me, because I know we're going to hit it with a lot, especially, you know, not just what we already have as capital, but, you know, because of the storm. So I just, you know, I get it. And so maybe there is some side work they can research for us, because I understand, you know, you don't want to kind of do two projects and spend more money either. But we've got several projects that we could push other projects into that type of a situation. So I just want to be cautious. But so anyway, you're the maker of the motion, so I'll let you kind of carry on. Yeah, and I'd say, you know, I totally get that. The, you know, I think we need to take another look at just the feasibility of it that, you know, from both cost and a resource perspective, you know. Obviously, excuse me, obviously the budget cycle is coming up, so that's something that certainly can be, you know, considered. So would it be fair to say, Commissioner, maybe you move to move forward on this phase one, but at the same time have staff look at some feasibility about how that may be that it could be combined into the project somehow? Yes. And what that might mean? Would that be fair? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if I could just clarify just to the vice mayor's point, you know, you mentioned the timeline that's shown in here. That timeline is predicated on you providing direction for them to move forward because they've got to finalize construction documents so that we can get on the schedule to advertise the project, bid it, recommend an award, and get it under construction in time to meet that deadline. So if we start delaying trying to make other decisions, then that just prolongs when that's going to happen. Yeah, that's a good point. Design specs, got to go out to bid, come back to you for, yeah, as Jorge said. Okay, well, I appreciate that too. You know, my perspective and, you know, this has taken a while and for obviously for a lot of different reasons. I really don't want to delay it much more because, you know, right now to get that fence, it's, you know, we can do better than that, right? So anyway, you know, my motion pretty much is focused on moving this forward, but I still would hope we could still do a measure of feasibility on this just to make a determination if we have to switch, you know, shift gears from one solution to the other. Yeah, so, yeah, that's all I've got. Thank you, Commissioner. Okay, Commissioner Dugard. Thank you, Mayor. I believe that, and I hate to go into a question at this point, but I'm going to raise it rhetorically. With the removal of the fencing and the landscaping and renderings as we see here, I believe we're creating a traffic flow that hasn't existed. We're going to raise it from main to grant is walkthrough capability now that didn't exist before, but that walkthrough capability is going to be impeded by those restrooms to some extent because of their location and the site plan. As I'm looking at that, if we choose to delay the siting of the restrooms, we have an opportunity to discover if, in fact, it is a traffic flow we wish to have. Because, let's face it, there are several businesses on Grant Street that will enjoy this as it is. It'll become a walkthrough. It'll be much more appealing for those businesses, and it'll drive their businesses. For those reasons, I'm not sure I disagree with the way this has been put together. I'd like to look at that. I'd like to go forward with the existing motion. And as we develop this, try to get an understanding of that traffic flow. So, those are my thoughts on the issue. Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner. Vice Mayor. This has been a long time coming, and I certainly concur with the decisions that are going in the right direction. As long as, right, the Phase 1, right, we are on schedule, and Phase 2, if we can hurry up on that, that can still be considered part of Phase 1, right? I seem to have gotten lost on that. There were concerns on timelines in Phase 1 and the way the motion was carried. I think the motion is to move forward with Phase 1. And then, as kind of a complete side, if we want to give consensus to Jorge to at least look at the feasibility of what, you know, what we could or couldn't do to look at that other aspect. So, that leaves the room for Phase 2 to be completed at the same time Phase 1 is being completed. So, it is one project. Well, they'd bring back feasibility on that timeline. That's possible. That's the focus, right? We don't know, but that's where we're moving to. Well, I'm hearing mixed feelings about it, but I think all of us will get more information, and then we could make a final decision about whether or not two would become part of one. Okay. Mayor, if I could regurgitate since my boss is out of town, and then she's going to tell me what did you agree to. I just want to make sure that I'm understanding what's being asked. So, I think given the budget constraints that we have, I believe that the direction of staff is receiving is if the commission moves forward with the motion as it is to direct the consultant to move forward with producing plans consistent with what's defined as Phase 1. And then internally, with our own staff, without using a consultant or an associated fee, we will look at the feasibility of what if we were to pursue a Phase 2 restroom prefab structure, engage the Architectural Review Committee to see if that's possible to somehow sequence that such that that project could be incorporated either during construction or immediately following construction of Phase 1. Is that correct? That is my understanding. Is that everybody? Yeah. Right. I mean, it doesn't mean we do it. It just means that they'd look and see how feasible that would be. Mayor, I think Commissioner Sandberg had wanted to. Yes, I'm going to go to him. Okay. I'm going to go to him. Anyway, those are my comments. And I would just say this, and maybe the answer is simple such that if we understood the timeline or the dates where, you know, the drop-dead dates for getting the bid documents together to getting the RFP out, you know, all of that stuff, you know, it might lead us to the termination part of this. Just to take a look at that whole sequence of events and then start aligning that with our budgetary process this year. Yeah. I'm just going to add everything that Horace said and a cost estimate. You know, it would also be a decision point, too, cost estimate and the budget as well as the sequence and the timing and all. Okay. So any other comments about the actual motion? Okay. I'm going to go to Commissioner Sandberg. No, I just appreciate Mike Short coming forward and talking about that. I agree 100%. You know, on that end of town, people have to use the restroom. They're going into those merchants. And I mean, if we're going this far, if there's a way, and I didn't realize there was prefabricated restrooms, you know, I'm in favor of moving forward with what we have. But great to knock out those restrooms. I mean, that's always been my, you know, my highest hopes when that property was, you know, redeveloped, that there would be extra public bathrooms and the shade for people to rest. So I appreciate a citizen bringing that forward. I wish I had caught that myself. So thank you, Mayor. Thank you. And, you know, my comments are, and I appreciate all of that from the restrooms. I mean, you know, my concern, again, is we've got phase one. I want to get it done. And at the same time, I know what we're going to see during budget, and we're going to have a lot of challenges. And so I just want to be really careful that, you know, because there's a lot of competing interests here. But I appreciate what you're saying. Obviously, I don't want to get into a lot of extra expense by doing it in two phase. But there's other projects that we could push into added phases that we would maybe be more soft. So I just want to be careful with that. But so I obviously I'm also in favor of the motion. And also, I think you described it well, Jorge, if you guys can just look at, you know, what that might look like. Because there's no downside to doing the legwork of what that might look like architecturally so that we're ready whenever we do it. So I think that's good. So, okay, I'm going to do just a voice vote. All in favor of the motion? Aye. Aye. Aye. And that motion passes unanimously. Thank you. Okay. Thank you very much. Thanks for the work. Thank you, Bob. Yep. I think I stay right here. Oh, you stay right there. There you go. It's your night. Thank you. Okay. Second item is City Commission Preliminary Approval of Development Agreement Negotiations with Archway Partners for the Flats on Main Street Project located at 1422 Carnation Drive. And I'll turn to staff presentation, George and Bob. Yep. Yep. Okay. I'll take it real quick. Okay. Go ahead. Obviously, George and I work quite closely together. Bob Einstein, economic development director. And, of course, George Kinney, community development director. We've been working with Archways for this affordable housing initiative. We're very excited. This is on State Road 580 there off of Carnation Drive. There are various aspects that need to be initiated with this project, such as the density. This is a 50% increase in the density. It's a waiver of parkland impact fees. And there's also a reduction in the art aspect. All of these are covered in the land development code. What we'd really like to do is, since this project is requiring a development agreement, tonight we really want to start with getting approval for negotiating a development agreement. So, Attorney Jen Cowan will be very much involved, as well as Archways' attorney. David Hayslip is here with Archways to answer any questions that you might have. But, really, tonight is just a step to begin negotiations. To have a development agreement formed, that would then come before you for your review. Do I leave anything out there? I think you nailed it. George does more than I do. So, I want to make sure. The only thing I would say to some of the new commission members, the development agreement is a pretty standard agreement. It usually precedes design review. So, you're going to see this over several different processes. First, the development agreement, which will come back to the LPA in the form of an ordinance. And then the design review, which will come to the commission in the form of an ordinance. Yeah. So, again, we'll see it all. This is just to say staff move forward with negotiating. Correct. Okay. Any questions for staff? I'll start with Commissioner Walker. Thank you, Mayor. Just understood from our briefing earlier this week that there's some time deadlines that we have to hit here, right? Correct. In order to keep this on track. Correct. Right. So, I understand they might be pretty tight timelines. They are. What I'd like to do is maybe bring up Dave Hayslund, who can answer that a little bit more. But, yes, closing on the property. Obviously, we've got some state funding here with a 9% tax credit. That's – Dave can answer those questions for you. Hi, I'm Dave Hayslund with Archway Partners. And – Carolyn. I'm sorry, Carolyn. You'll be seeing a decent amount of both of us over the next couple months. But as Bob mentioned, you know, you guys have really three fantastic pieces of incentives for affordable housing in your code. The first is a 50% affordable housing density bonus. I can tell you this deal would not happen if you guys didn't have that in your code. The Parkland impact fee waiver, which is fantastic. And then the reduction in the art impact fee. The closing deadlines, we have to close with the state on the tax credits by December 31st. It seems far out there, but it's not. As you go through all this process to the development agreement approval, then the design review, so all these other aspects, and going through different boards. So it takes some time. George knows it better than I do as far as time schedule. But we want to certainly be sensitive and aware of that. We don't want to lose this deal. We were extremely fortunate to get 9% tax credits. And we're also very happy to partner with the Penelope County Housing Authority. They brought a lot to the game, too. Yeah, that's all the questions I have. I really do think that, you know, you guys really did pull a rabbit out of your hat on this. This was a big one. Just to make you understand a little bit, and Caroline's been working hard on this, as Dave Hayslip, when you get this type of assistance, you have to do archaeological surveys. You've got to go and contact the tribal chiefs, make sure there's nothing out there in relics. There's a lot more layers here than just the city of Dunedin that have taken time. Great. Okay. Commissioner DeGard. I'm excited. I want to cheer both our staff and you for putting this project together. I have one concern. It feels like we're putting affordable housing in an area with a shoehorn. It feels very tight. I'm worried about safety issues and also the issues of fire safety, particularly because of the entry and exit areas. Can you help me understand how we're going to make sure it's safe? Sure. So from a crime perspective, we do a septet analysis, crime prevention through environmental design, where we hire a consultant that looks at our site plan, our building layout, and makes sure that there aren't, you know, areas that are hidden. We also use CCTV camera access. We have a full-time property manager that's on site along with a maintenance person that are there during normal business hours. We'll work with your fire department on the access to make sure that we're okay off of Carnation Drive to access the property. I think the other item, Commissioner, excuse me, Dave, this has a community area. There's quite a bit of green area, actually. This is only a three-story product, but there's actually a lot of trees out in that site that they went ahead and retained, and they also have a pretty nice community area that's designated for it. With this density, can we get away with one entry and exit point? It'll all be, yeah, according, well, defer to George, but, yeah, it's all off the Carnation Drive. Yeah, I mean, we'll see all that, right, George? We'll see all those access, so you'll have plenty of time to see if you think. It'll go through what's called our design review process, so all of our departments will be available for those meetings, including FDOT and our city engineer when it comes to local street improvements and those kinds of things. That was my only concern. Thank you. And then we also did a traffic impact analysis as well to make sure that it's not going to overly burden the Carnation Drive. Okay. Thank you very much. That's all. Okay. Thank you. And Vice Mayor. Thank you, Mayor. How close is the closest public transit stop? It's pretty close. There's a transit stop on Main Street not too far from Lukens there. All right. That's all I have, Mayor. Thank you. Okay. Commissioner Sandbergen. You know, it's a good job by the city staff putting this together. I've worked on projects downtown with these development agreements, and I think it's the way to go. This is a long time coming, and I have no problem supporting this and moving this one forward. Thank you, Mayor. Thank you, Commissioner. Okay. And I don't have any questions at all, so I'm going to open it for public hearing. If there's anyone in the audience wishing to come forward and speak on this issue, thank you. And I see no one rushing to the front, so I think we're good. I will close the public hearing and ask for a maker of the motion, staff's recommendation. So moved. Second. Second. We have Commissioner Dugard and Commissioner Walker. Sorry, Commissioner Sandbergen. I think that's just that delay on the Zoom, you know. I figured that out. You're right. That's right. You know. Okay. I'll just keep them there for future meetings. That's it. So, okay. We will go to commission comments, and I'll start with the maker of the motion, Commissioner Dugard. There's not a person that's lived in Dunedin for more than 18 months that doesn't realize we have an affordable housing problem. And I'm going to put forward just one piece of information. We have one firefighter who lives inside our city limits because of the affordability of housing. This is a must, and I just want to thank the staff for finding a place and the Development Corporation for finding a place and putting some housing up. And I think that's all I have to say. Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner. And seconder, Commissioner Walker. Yeah, I don't have any additional comments, but, well, the one, I guess I do. So, yeah, having been through, and I think since I've been a commissioner, this was the second or third effort to get to this moment. And I have to say, this is something I think we're all going to be very proud of and go forward and do good things. Thank you. Vice Mayor. Thank you, Mayor. And, Steve, she uses that delay comment with me, and I'm right next to her. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Vice Mayor. There must have been a delay. I didn't get that. I'm very excited about this project. Bob, you have worked your tail off. And this is the third project in this location that we've tried, I think, finally, four. And that's not to mention the other location that we have tried as well. So it's an ongoing battle. And to Commissioner Dugard's comments, absolutely, this is, we all see the problem that's out there. And this is just a drop in the bucket. We need a hundred more of these to even consider maybe making a dent. So, and it's not just these type of deals. We need to look at our housing stock in general and what it looks like in the missing middle and the younger people. And we have to talk about that ugly term, density, and do that strategically. You can't do it everywhere, but there are certainly strategic locations in Dunedin where we need to increase our density and see what that looks like, especially along fixed-route corridors. But anyway, for this project tonight, absolutely. The sooner the better. Thank you. Thank you, Vice Mayor. Commissioner Sanborn. The only thing I would have to add is I fully support it. Thank you. Thank you. And as do I. And thank you all, Bob and George Button. And Bob, I know you've really worked hard on this. And so thank you, because it is a drop in the bucket. That's very well said. But we know it's a huge need. So this is exciting for our community to get this kind of a project. Okay. So I will do a roll call vote. Commissioner Sandbergen. Aye. Vice Mayor Gao. Aye. Commissioner Walker. Aye. Commissioner Jukar. Aye. Mayor Afrini. Aye. And that motion passes unanimously. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. The proposed agenda for February 20th, 2025 commission meeting. And I'm looking at that now. We have a nice proclamation that time. I don't know if that's a surprise to our retiring person. And so anybody have any additions or deletions, changes? Okay. Anybody? We good? Okay. So if I could have a motion to approve February 20th agenda. So moved. Second. Second. Second. Okay. Sorry, but it goes to Commissioner Walker and Commissioner Degard. All in favor. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? That motion passes unanimously. Commissioner Sandbergen, they're doing you dirty. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Plus, I hit the wrong button. So, yeah, I'm to blame also. We're going to move your seat right where you are. Just keep doing this. Okay, well, we just, and the last thing is informational items. I will just jump in and say, Jorge, thank you. I should have said it in the beginning that you were filling in for City Manager Jennifer, but we were kind of easy on you, too, really. You were. You were. Yeah. Thank you. So, but thank you. Any other informational items for the good of the order? Mary, the only thing I have is that if anybody happened to read the newspaper this morning, we're starting early with House Bill 401 that was introduced by House Representative Bernie Jacques out of the city of Seminole, who was part of our delegation of state legislators. And it is about, and there's some pros and cons. So, it's, I'm not, the point is just we need to start looking into it, because actually it's about what we can do to stop corporations from purchasing homes in Florida and what that looks like so that we can retain senses of community and single-family homes. And so I just applaud anybody who is looking at that area. And so just anyway, that is House Bill 401. Thank you. No, I appreciate that. Any other informational items? Okay. I wish to give kudos to the staff and also the Sheriff's Department for putting extra attention to the trail. I think that we've seen an enforcement presence that hasn't been there before. It hasn't been onerous. And I think we're seeing a little bit of a greater sense of safety on the trail. And I want to thank the staff and the Sheriff's Office for doing that. Great. Good comment. Okay. Anybody else? No? Okay. I don't have anything either. So I will officially adjourn the meeting. Thank you. Do you want to hear, bud? Thank you.