working demand and enforcement considerations at this time i'd like to introduce edward with the core dina group and he will provide an overview and of the findings and recommendations and facilitate discussion with the commission regarding potential policy direction it's all right all right cool thank you all right good evening mayor commissioners uh thank you for having us back again uh to discuss this very important topic uh you recall last time um we were um the commission has asked that we look into certain things a little bit more uh cul-de-sacs fire and uh so we uh you know step back together with staff you see danny and sharon we got with fire we got with code enforcement and uh public works and so forth so we go into some of the issues reviews today looking at public safety operational access infrastructure equity enforcement we do have some preliminary recommendation for you um but you know ultimately we also uh hope to get out this meeting from a staff perspective um a bit more direction on how you would like us to proceed uh uh with those recommendations one way or the other um we do have an updated crash review uh we updated from three to five years as requested and uh looking at the time between january 1st 2021 to the 7 31st 2025 um we uh note that there's a total of just over 6 000 documented crashes and small amount only like 100 i believe i think it was commissioner carl where you had to ask if we towards to look into more about actually how much were on uh uh on site which we were like well that's really not that much um and it is a small amount uh 16 uh 16 crashes occurred with on-demand delivery vehicles and nine crashes occurred with emergency vehicles so it's not a very high number of the crashes uh overall in the city um of those 99 crashes which are all mapped we were requested to map them as well you see that they're citywide no fatalities incapacitating injuries only three of them with minor injuries and four with possible injuries um it does occur in both the new and the older residential areas we were asked to look at you know where or not there's a difference because our newer residential areas have uh smaller right-of-ways and we know that that to be kind of an issue uh but we found don't discernible significant pattern when we expanded the data uh uh looking at from um from that standpoint however we do find that of the crashes that did occur there are restricted site distance due to park vehicles um so you know it's not well it's not overly a big issue statistically it is enough of an issue you do have 100 crashes in those years in that time frame and you know vehicles backing out drive with limited visibility that could be an issue for children uh in particular i know that's something that was brought up by the commission last time like do we look at like uh uh um crashes with the children um there are no documented crashes involving children to drive visibility zone so we're very thankful for that uh we still think that from an engineering and planning standpoint that you just have a little bit of an elevated risk of that um uh uh you know there is one documented crash with a cul-de-sac um the vice mayor asked us to look into the cul-de-sacs a little bit more that was at hartley court uh we do find that there are robots or two or more on street park vehicle crashes um we separate them out um you know places like fernanda drive not really surprising there because it's a more narrow right away uh the heat kettering rosedale wanderer you know some of these sound familiar because they're part of our newer uh uh subdivision so there is you know enough to for us to say hey you might want to think about the width of your roadways um and design standards we also went back and chatted with our um our fire department and thank you uh sharon for uh getting us a lot of the vital information we need to kind of look at this a little bit further we really appreciate the fire department giving us our time and and information we know that our fire apparatus requires a minimum of 20 feet of uninstructed space for deploy equipment we know that you know from an engineering design standpoint we look at something called the green book uh which would we use um uh you want certain width for travel purposes and they really should be based on design speed so you have lower speed people aren't traveling along you know certain speed you have a little bit more like a reaction time you can get away with a slightly smaller width but still you know 20 to 25 mile per hour you want 10 feet of travel lanes and 30 35 mile per hour you want 10 to 11 feet um you're running a bus or something on a road where you want 11 feet minimum um that's pretty much engineering design standards and we try to take this from a standard standpoint think of our recommendation you add all this together up right you want to be able to have uh you have to run a fire truck through for them to turn to be to have staging and take you know you know having permitted the fire but you know we have great you know staff here that you know will respond to it but you got to be able to get there and that means that when you have certain roadways you should have a certain amount of width and so one of the recommendations that we want you to consider is um having no on street parking road with design speed over 35 miles per hour um and then based on the design speed of the road think about restricting your parking so that you have enough maneuverability this um means that you know certain roadways where we don't have enough width you have the standard you could get to there by paving more of your right-of-way or if you don't um you know you you might want to have to want to restrict parking again it's really about um having that clearance room and setting a design standard or a parking standard that is related to how much width you have so that um your emergency vehicle can maneuver around um i'll just stop here for a second if there's any questions on design speed and width and so forth before moving on commissioner nabic go back to the i believe it was the second slide uh this slide there yes it was on street park vehicles yes sir okay thank you you're welcome commissioner colin yeah on your uh survey that you've done here you know in deltona not too many roads are straight there's several curves so right how would we determine which ones we would allow parking in the rows and which ones we wouldn't um without repaving all the roads here right we would also recommend thank you for that commissioner we would also recommend the your curved roads you try to restrict parking on the curve of the roadway just because it's how it restricts your line of sight and really use your site distance triangle uh um in addition to the curvature road but also like what it relates to driveways and that site distance triangle really using that to restrict the parking to show that you reduce the risk of those collisions that have occurred so if we put a general ordinance out there for parking in the in the right of ways what would the restrictions be on from parking in coming to the intersection uh like i said most roads are curved and righty through deltona we don't have to be straight roads so what would the distance be between the curve and the parking area so to speak well normally you would restrict um from the intersection anyway general standards about 100 feet um so that that goes about saying but beyond that these would be additional restrictions um um um there's an aspect of if you're you know you don't want folks to park in front of a driveway uh for example um so it really depends on the direction you want to go right um uh you admittedly there's some parts of it where you would have to go on a street bike that's on your uh curvilinear roads within the city there are a few uh for the straight roads um you would probably just put a standard where you set a distance uh from the intersection um the tons of feet and then uh you set at least a five to ten feet minimum uh uh from a driveway and then let the sites you know the design review look at it like well what else is there that might block your um block your of you know visually can you go back to the second slide that one that one's on um are we going to get a copy of this uh yes all right i just i want to make sure we look at that crash map when it comes time to talk about fire stations so thank you thank you all right so you know um talking about site conflict points um fine curve you know the vehicle parked interior side of the roadway curve probably you know we've all driven here so we know that you turn a curve um that there's you know this video kind of shows that like where your the visibility um uh you know could be impacted um you know again mentioned well parking for maintain minimum five feet separation no on-street parking on especially the interior side of the curve um you could probably do the outside curve and be okay if you're like short-arm parking so um but you want to designate those spots and on the approach you want to have the appropriate uh you know assignments if needed um and so forth this infrastructure was something else that we had followed on based on uh discussion um your nav is for example noted uh the that the story of uh palm coast so um and having those parking on the side of houses so we looked at that a little bit further um they had two different things fires that are sorry about rv's park too close to homes and with both that collected pineinos and the fire spread um so we looked at standards from other places and generally you want to keep a certain distance um we would suggest that the commission consider a 30 foot separation um uh uh between structure and where you park those vehicles and uh everything around it should be maintained um you know for your debris and so forth um you know you also have defined in your revised code like commercial vehicles uh with uh you know certain uh growth weight and so forth um you know considered consideration here though is that many homes lack side or rear parking space for these vehicles so if you're restricted to that 30 feet then you have to think about um where in the city they may park and that means opening up some uh land to commercial development of uh parking stores like an rv parking or a vehicle uh uh you know a uh boat vehicle storage that is a conscious policy decision that other cities have engaged in they don't allow in your side yard then they try to encourage that other aspect because your residents will have those boats no matter what so they have to go somewhere so it's a matter of making that policy decision say which direction are we going to go um but we do think that you know if the fire uh aspect is concerned what we see in other cities is 30 feet um and that separation um you would have to load back to your code and think about small of vehicle uh storage laws and that's a directive to staff at that point to look at your zoning outside of this commissioner harriet also your mics are that's not your mic but go ahead uh i see um this graphic that you guys have up there you're showing the arrow from the vehicle to the front corner of the property um is that intentional or should the minimum 30 feet of any structure per per the fire code standard restrict the fact that if that distance is 30 feet then it's probably closer directly lateral um that was just a kind of like uh just a graphic yeah the graphic yeah um okay thank you vice mayor of vila vascos thank you mayor um we're gonna have a problem because our current homes are not gonna measure the 30 feet i mean as it is right now if you drive around my district they're parked in the front of the house next next to the house but in the front right in the front lawn and if you have if you see them parked in the back they just squeezing in on the side of the house so it's it's something that we need to look at real close because unless you own half an acre that's not going to happen right and i think that's why we were like well yeah we we agree with you like just looking at your map vice mayor we noted that like many homes lack the side of rear yard space for these vehicles right there so we realized it's an issue um we also realized that it is ultimately a policy decision that the uh commission has to come back to staff and be like do we want to prioritize the space separation based on fire safety because it can be a very real item or do we want to kind of see where we can bridge the gap a little differently um i think there's no easy answer to to to this we can only just provide our recommendation based on if you want to go with fire safety 30 feet is what we've been you know what we researched and told if um you know that's the case then we would suggest direct and recommend commission hey look at your you know how you can get those commercial uh parking in place maybe have a great period in the meantime so that we you know until don't get set in place so that you know you're not putting an unnecessary hardship on some of the residents um but then to just transition that gradually over time so that you reduce that risk currently i can think of only one place in deltona that rents uh parkings to rvs which is um right off exit 111 on saxon behind the plaza i i don't know of any other ones right vice vice mayor we have at least two others coming in to the city of deltona one on howland boulevard um or two on howland boulevard one by pine ridge high school um one by five four commissioner santiago then commissioner carlwell then commissioner harriet thank you mayor um i act i agree with vice mayor um you know we have to take a better look at this 30 and i understand it's a recommendation but we also have to look at is it a fire safety from the fire department you know do you feel it's a fire safety right have we've had issues before because when you drive around here all you see is campers and boats and and to to now tell them that they need a 30-foot separation i think that's gonna um and and tell me if just give us some information um staff if if you have i mean do you think that's an issue that we have to look into your buns on um from the vice mayor i'm looking at vice mayor's area it's a lot of you know it's paul um majority of the older you know um properties that were developed early in eight to ten feet it's what i can see the distance from the house to the property line on the side of the house very difficult i mean they have a hard time trying to come in compliance with the parking because we do allow up to three vehicles behind the front face of the house very limited very tough to even get the vehicles back there um this 30 feet it will be a drastic um measure for the residents to come you know use that as compliance there's not much i don't even think there's 30 feet maybe from the back of the house to the property line to the rear either or other easement um but yeah we wouldn't have to look at that i i know it was um i think it was um a commissioner novick that brought that up to our attention at the last meeting that hey it's a chain reaction house fire vehicle the next door house is going to catch on fire um but yeah it'll be very difficult for the residents to come to compliance with that 30 feet just out of curiosity it says the per the fire code standards 30 feet where did you get that information i'm just curious um jeb good come up here not talking to mike did jeb one of my planners uh he's working on the project along with me she's not kidding one of volusia county's fire manuals okay so not out of the i would have to double check but yeah okay not from the florida fire prevention code it was a volusia county standard yeah i believe so yeah okay thank you commissioner carlwell yeah i'm going to keep danny on the spot here i'm going to go back to the parking in the row um being the average lot is 50 to 75 foot wide and we're going to put a 15 foot buffer from driveway to driveway that doesn't allow much space what's the enforcement look like what do you visualize the enforcement on that if we're doing you know down the road you got five parking spots how do you enforce that um i mean once the owner's in place we'll enforce it um right now it's currently suspended we have 66 16 which is you know any parking in the right of way when it comes to vehicles um it's currently suspended i think the residents know that and um um yeah so will it be difficult yes but it once it's on paper we can enforce it right thank you commissioner harriet and then commissioner novick if you've got a response to that i'd uh um you know just a thought for mayor commissioners um the way of looking at this is you know the middle ground could be um you restrict certain types of vehicles and then for the rest you use code enforcement to say you know to say you have to keep clean up debris and you to really find them so you use a lower standard um you keep that 10 foot separation but you have to maintain these things a very certain way you have to be clear those pine needles you can't let them accumulate that sort of thing you can't park certain vehicles like um like a food truck that might have propane tanks and and things inside so that reduce reduction of risk otherwise otherwise otherwise your standard would be that distance so that's you know something to think about yeah it's definitely something to think about i i i thought where you were going to go with that was um to a little bit more towards uh commissioner caldwell's point about street parking where we we reduce or we we don't allow commercial vehicle parking in the street or in the right of way um since those are going to be your larger more oversized vehicles that would that makes a lot of sense to me um i i think i'm with everybody else here that the 30 foot separation from the property from the house just doesn't that's not functional you're just you're creating a problem um that doesn't have a solution right when it comes to the commercial vehicle parking i want to make sure i've got a couple residents in my district that work for some of our public utilities i've got a couple residents that work for some of the large machinery companies caterpillar and whatnot and have service vehicles right and they have very well kept yards very nice driveways everything's very well maintained i want to make sure that we're not preventing them from doing their job and taking their take-home vehicle home i don't think we should be preventing anybody from having vehicles that have ladder racks or print on the side of their vehicles that's uh at the end of the day we're working class community and that's not going to change no ordinance you can't legislate that out um nor would i want to um i do think that we could use some some restrictions to like your point about if somebody's got a food truck that has flammables on it then that specifically needs to have its own set of parameters uh and then you know again back to no commercial vehicles parked on the right-of-way um and you know outside of uh you know service vehicle parking i don't know what else i i'm just i'm not a big fan of the right-of-way parking period if we're going to have to come to some middle ground then then i think i can get there but um i'd like to hear what everybody else has to say on the right-of-way parking commissioner novik okay so the 30 feet comes out of u.s nfpa's code specifically dealing with a program called firewise firewise is a recommendation it's not a code some communities have adopted firewise principles but that defensible space language uh is in in the document uh called firewise uh talks about all kinds of combustible material pruning trees gravel versus uh wood chips and things like things of that nature so there's a there's a lot of components to this we can't adopt a code that addresses one one thing fits all we've got to break it up into a couple of different parts the most difficult one is is adopting new land development standards because the senate bill 180 i think we're limited on being able to do that so as development goes forward where our hands are tied with recreating the same problems that already exist with these subdivisions and we've got to find a way to fix that um if it's a planned unit subdivision then obviously that can be negotiated into that that document but if it's a straight up zoning they're not changing anything they're just coming into the building department getting their building permits and developing we're kind of stuck with with what we have to live by our hands are tied with that so moving forward i think we need to have some guiding principles if you will for the development department on on roads and and the width of the the roads and creating off-site parking because the reality is when deltona was originally created it was it was a retirement community and now you have multi-generational residences where you have grandparents you have the working family you have the kids that are there you might have four or five vehicles parked there what are we going to do tell them they can't park the vehicles there they're going to have to park in the swale in 1967 my grandparents bought a house over on falmouth and to this day cars have parked year after year day after day on that swell and that swell is just fine it's got grass it drains the rain comes it fills up with water 20 minutes later the water's all gone swells just fine then you have other houses i can think of one that we dealt with over on piedmont where they've got five or six four-wheel drive vehicles and they just tore the hell out of the swale so we need to have something in place that we can make them restore the swale because they damaged it last friday the subdivision um fernanda place there over by pine rich high school i got several phone calls that the trash wasn't picked up well the reason their trash wasn't picked up was because cars were parked on both sides of the street and the waste pro truck couldn't get down there to pick the trash up so the trash didn't get picked up so the first thing i would propose is that we go out for an rfp to a tow truck company and that rfp would include at least three parts one would be that they would get the contract for towing city vehicles for maintenance fire truck breaks down public works truck breaks down maintenance gotta call tow truck they've got company a on the list that's who they go ahead and call that'd be part of the contract second part of it would be for danny and his crew they get a they get a magistrate order to tow vehicle tow truck company is on contract with the city and they go tow the vehicle the third part of it dealing with the subdivisions is we say we pass an ordinance and zach would obviously have to work out all the legalities but for the rfp we'd be look at tow and go tow truck company comes in at eight o'clock on friday night into a subdivision we've got no parking signs on the even side numbers of the street if there's a vehicle parked on that side of the street the tow truck hooks them and takes them because if danny comes out there and writes him a ticket it doesn't solve the problem waste pro still can't get down the street fire truck can't get down the street you go to orlando you park where you're not supposed to park guess what your car's at the impound and you got to pay to get it out it takes the city out of the picture somebody somebody wants wants to call and complain that there's a vehicle park tow truck company comes and gets it their phone numbers on the sign but we have to decide you know which side of the street and which subdivisions that that can be addressed in that's that's that's a part we can choose to implement very quickly and get one component of this problem off of our plate another one is simply deciding on the size of a vehicle meaning the weight and the length of the vehicle and if it's over that it goes it's not allowed in the residential neighborhood that's another easy part to go ahead and pass but the part about residential vehicles the sedan the minivan the pickup truck no parking in the street they don't need to be parked on our other streets not the subdivision streets the mackle streets we'll call them for a little bit of ease of description maybe parking on piedmont parking on you know catalina wherever um no parking in the street there they're going to have to park on a swale now we can provide guidelines maybe uh if we have a problem where the sale the swale has been identified and it's being eaten up um on a case-by-case basis we come in and at you know the commission's pleasure we decide whether the city's going to do it or the homeowner's going to do it but you come in and you rock it you go over to the transfer station you get the crushed rock you come in you put it down it does a very nice job it drains very well and it gives you a good parking surface to park on that's going to be stable and not not get torn up those things can be done relatively easily and quickly to resolve probably half of the parking problem that we have and then if we so decide the motorhome parking unless you have more than an acre you're gonna have to go put it in a storage storage facility someplace and pay to pay to put it there a boat over a certain size you're going to we're going to decide is it going to be a john boat it's going to be okay but if somebody's got a a 24-foot center council that's going to have to go to a storage facility one just opened up in orange city it's full just opened up a couple months ago it's completely full went by there went by there yesterday completely full semis no parking in the city they have to park in an approved storage facility they don't belong parked on a city street they're too heavy to be on these residential streets and they're tearing up when they do park they're tearing up the shoulder they can't park on the swale they're too heavy so some of the components of this problem we can address immediately some of the more intricate stuff it's going to take a little bit more time we're not going to be able to eat the elephant all at one time but we can take several bites out of it very easily okay all right here's some of the concerns i have did we look within what we what we asked you to look for do we look at this the possibility of making some of these streets one ways well outside the confines the study um this is a general look at yes this is something the city can do mayor uh you would want to establish studies for specific pairs at that time because you go out one way and then you want to make sure you flow the other way within the grid so you would have to do that on a case by case uh basis for the city but yeah it is uh one way you can think about it because when you have that one way um you need that lane and then you need a bypass on that and then you can allow the rest of that right away to be parking as long as you have the the initial uh travel path and the bypass um that's an um that's an important aspect that people forget about because what i what i'm looking at is if and i'm going to pick on district three it's it's nothing personal it's just the roads are a lot smaller right even in fernando point district six the roads are are not that are not that wide um making those one ways kind of creates somewhat of uh it avoids that parking on both sides situation and even then i believe the city manager had a great suggestion about maybe some percolating asphalt with some of the piping that also is able to receive some of that water so cars can actually park on it and when it does rain or whatever it doesn't affect really the swells in that area so you have on street parking on one side of the road and having it a one-way street helps in that aspect i'm what i'm trying to avoid is i don't want the city to become a huge hoa right that that's that's not what we're about uh i think davidson said it best we are a a working class uh community um we don't want to add another bill to somebody's pocket of now they gotta go out and and and rent a storage facility for a parking lot but at the same time i understand that if you have a small mackle house you really can't stick a big rv in there and let it take from the parking lot all the way to the end of the property and just there's some safe there's legitimate safety concerns there right i i just want us to be mindful of that and uh also we have these these utility company vehicles florida utilities is one of them just just to name one uh they are usually on call and they can't just park you know in a specific way and it could be a company policy or whatever whatever it is but they need to be able to have the ability actually even some of our staff members that take their cars home right they're on call for whatever emergency they need to be able to get in their cars and go so we need to take all that stuff in account i just don't want to see this becoming a huge hoa because we're not an hoa that is my biggest concern and why i didn't support the last the last go around was because we're implementing way too many rules and it started to feel like we should just have a gated community at the entrances and just call to an hoa that's not what i want to see so i know i'm one of seven but vice mayor thank you mayor um speaking of hoas the um parking rules of an hoa that's not on the city is it i mean do do hoas make their own rules and how they park inside their their subdivision so um yes madam vice mayor the hoa communities do set their own rules however the city's code of ordinances applies generally throughout the city limits so anywhere where there is a public road the city ordinance code of ordinances apply the hoa may have additional rules on you know with the right on their own parking rules or guest registration etc but the code of ordinances applies on any public road any public road not those um private hoas correct any private road does would have their own private um rules um we have a road danny that you know it's one of the biggest headaches the welcome what is it called the welcome something over by of deltona boulevard where trailers have it's called welcome center road exactly they have adopted that road to park overnight which is so dangerous because it's pitch dark now it's a it's privately owned that area right it's it's actually a private road correct it's a private uh private how do we handle that one uh we address it with the property owner if we can get a hold of him sometimes he's not always available exactly that's my point i mean you know the emails that we get from a specific resident who's always complaining about that specific road so i think we need to look into that as well you know private roads that we have no control of it's not gated it's not a subdivision it's just a road right right sometimes commissioner um i mean vice mayor matter vice mayor um with the private road the model control also is rooted in how a development was um agreement was structured so if there are certain provisions that are part of approval such as um emergency vehicle access and and things like that those are enforceable as part of general city rules and so even though it's a private road it's part of development with the proof is that you have to allow fire service you have to allow police service to adequately service those areas and they're blocking that then you also have the city has the right to cite them for a violation of the protocol and so that's um you know i i know often we run into right okay like it's a private road we can't do uh anything about it there are some things that you can do about it yet they can't allow parking but they can't allow parking in a way that violates those uh public service uh emergency service principles uh that were part of the agreement to allow that development in the first place okay thank you and just another comment um and i understand you know we don't want to be an hoa but you know it's a 50 50 because you have residents who need it but then you have residents who don't want it in their neighborhood um you know i have a i have a a resident who sent me a picture they had like seven cars parked on the side of their house um how do we handle that one because this is we're saying it's okay you have the space you can park it there but then the people that cross the street say no i don't want it there every time i come out i have to see all these things on on stilts and and the bricks so how do we handle that right i i totally understand the feeling when i go home to see my dad um the neighbors always park right across from his driveway and we don't have a narrow street and so when i'm going down his little hill over the driveway i'm like am i going to hit the other car and my dad's a terrible driver so i am afraid that he's going to hit the neighbor and i'll be embarrassed so i you know i can understand where the neighbor's sentiments are um how about this um i think there's a lot of really great comments from our mayor and commissioners um and they actually relate to some of the things that we have in subsequent slides if it's if it's all right with the mayor commission uh maybe let's go through some of these other things that we have considered uh in our recommendation i'll cover uh a couple more points as as well um i think this one next one uh will probably just also resonate with some things that the mayor said because one thing that we are really concerned about is guest parking we are community where you know we know historic deltona and return say during the first uh workshop day you know we don't actually have so much driveways um you know it with the retirement community and it changed to a family oriented community where you would expect more than two vehicles especially for a working class family and so these driveways were not really designed for more than one and a half two vehicles at a time so what are the recommendations then well part of it is relaxing certain rules about having that pavement of swales having those gravel pavement well and instituting programs either from the city side where the city pays to do that conversion or allowing a program where you loosen the rules and let an individual property owner um that you know what i need extra parking in front of my house i'm willing to put down the gravel myself and turn agreement with the city that adopt the city of liability because liability can be a concern it has been in other cities but they do allow it and that's a program sometimes you do it as an individual property or sometimes you out loosen the rules and you allow the folks in the neighborhood block to come together and say we want to do this for ourselves we as a neighborhood are in agreement that we want to do so and building that process to loosen the rules so that they can convert some of these wells um you know obviously there will be some interaction with public work that needs to be done because you don't want to remove the swales but create a drainage and flooding problem so there's a balance that needs to be done in the same way that you don't always allow well parking because it compacts the soil and creates a flooding issue and i know we're sensitive to that here in deltona uh but um you know part of that then is thinking about relaxing perviousness standards too to allow for those driveways extension so that you could get those extra vehicle understanding that um you know our folks here in deltona need that extra vehicle to get to work or they have a kid and you know uh you know and they have the extra vehicle um it's about finding that balance right within the policy by loosening the rules um i mean do note that without on-street parking all the neighbors just for the commission we're going to get through a few more slides and then i'll call you guys each and you know we can't meet off street and get parking minimums um there are other aspects we would recommend you loosen up the rules on on short-term parking uh we talked about service vehicle parking overnight you might address that through the weight uh the aspect that commissioner nabbit uh brought up with in line with what we have in the slide but beyond that even if you go don't go with the weight aspect um we can't currently park um things like landscaping when someone is served actively servicing the property that's a pretty big issue because we want our properties well maintained and sometimes you need these calls the pool person you need to call roto router you need to call the landscaping person so there should be some we would recommend that you loosen the rules to include service vehicles on active calls and allow them to park in the street for the duration of call inside certain things to it like um having you know operator must be on site and active on the call because you know you're knocking doors like hey you have a landscape vehicle out front are they servicing the property or if you know it's blocking the roadway to a certain degree and you need emergency vehicles go through at least they're on site and you can move the vehicle immediately so it's not that much of a hassle um we would suggest that you know some of the rules could include on-street parking permitted only when no other option is available because say you know someone coming in to fix your drain through the router fits fits in your driveway right now don't have them park on the road park in the driveway first and then there's no other option park on the street uh but definitely your rules don't allow for that right now and that's operationally you know not something that you necessarily need to prohibit particularly uh with um you know a need for servicing for your properties long-term city programs really um you definitely have to think about uh if you allow parking as well there will be a cost you will have to think about going in and putting on rsp because you don't have a vendor that will be able to come in and aerate those because once the soil compacts it's not going to drain well and it's going to compound your drainage issues um and that's pretty serious issue here for most of the city and that's a consideration to consider here uh here um i want to consider while you figure out the rules and put them in piecemeal amnesty program so that you're scaling it in but letting people react and giving more of a time frame to implement some of these concepts and that way it eases the burden on your residents um it's something that other cities have thought about when they're implementing or revising the rules so that you know you're scaling it and something that we didn't necessarily see in the first round but something that we would recommend here because it allows folks time to react allow businesses to react as well they need to provide private side um it will help um you also with the time needed to study one-way pairs to consider how much you relax with the rule can you put aside money through your public work and direct staff to put in the paving for that item um mostly there's aspects of recommendations where you could acquire dedicate existing facilities for long-term commercial vehicle parking that includes city owned properties as well that is something that other cities have done um that could be on a temporary basis while you implement other policies it doesn't have to be long term but it is something that we've seen in other cities here um and then uh as an aside um i click with commissioner knaps brought it up with when it comes to fb 180 yes you might not be able to put more restrictive policies but parking on the street isn't necessarily a development policy and so you can't toy with that a little bit what the commission could say is we have a set standard for whether you can park on the street if you want your development because you need to meet parking standards and you want to all have to on-street parking well rules across the city is you have to have to certain width if you design to that you can park to on the street if you don't design to that you can't park in the street you're not making it more onerous for them from a development standpoint you're giving them the option and that's where sp 180 in my personal opinion does not apply i'll defer to your city attorney on the legal advice from the city attorney's office but because it's not a development standard it's something that you could implement in my professional opinion and be able to work with that a little bit differently now what's more a little bit more difficult is if you need to revise your guest parking standards right because your guest parking standards for the newer development considering your existing pattern might be a little bit low and so if the window opportunity opens where sb 180 doesn't apply i will go ahead and sell staff um go ahead and up that guest parking uh amount until that point you know maybe use design base and let them design to it because they're going to have to meet it through the purposes of sellability for their uh for their uh uh uh properties anyway so hopefully that part of the market based approach will carry you to at least a little bit until sb 180 doesn't tie your hands anymore um that's a consideration are you good yeah thank you mayor commissioner harriet then commissioner caldwell thank you mayor um to uh kind of to that last point that you had but also tying back to a couple slides mr good would there be do we have the ability to require within a developer's agreement for uh our pods that the covenants must um that the hoa must have a on-call tow service in place within the covenants that could potentially be a one of the conditions of approval um you know normally if there's going to be a if there's we're going to require the existence perpetual existence of an hoa we get to see those declarations and restrictions and have comment on those so that in in in a pud context yes yes would be possible as part of that negotiation okay because one of the challenges that i see with um increasing these standards is the developers are going to push back and say that they don't want to they don't have to they aren't required to per se but if we can require that if they don't follow their own covenants that they have a tow company that's on board that's going to enforce them for everybody then it's not going to take but a a couple developments for them to realize that it's probably best that they just create a development that's livable yeah certainly and the i think the actual and the enforcement mechanism on that may be a bit more complicated of course always is but yeah it's it's possible okay the um i had one other comment but i can't remember what it was at this moment i will come back commissioner caldwell and then we're going to start wrapping it up to go to public comment i know we've passed an ordinance where we've allowed a pathway to uh parking additional parking on your residential lots um and which is a driveway extension and i don't believe we're charging for that is that correct yes if it's concrete yes they need to apply and it is a fee for it but as for driver expansions uh there is no fee so to mr novick's point you know we do have several multi-family generations uh living in a single family residence um unfortunately they're converting their garages into bedrooms to allow that space to do it so they're having to park somewhere else i can't reasonably put it on all the taxpayers in the city's responsibility to keep redoing these rows um having them aerated every year putting rock down so that this can be allowed we've already gave them a pathway to have additional parking in their properties so i'm not sure why we're discussing how long has the ordinance been for parking in the rows was that was that when the city was formed there was no parking in the rows we don't how long we had an ordinance yeah so um i can look back at the full history i will say the recent change that was made several times yeah the most recent change that was made prior to the suspension of enforcement was to completely ban parking in the right-of-way previous to that parking in the right-of-way was a permitted if your vehicle was not stationary for 72 hours or more correct before that i would need to look further into the code of ordinances and see that previous ordinance history what is our legal stance on if there is an accident in a row somebody comes around a corner and hits the driveway as far as the city's responsibility because technically it's a row it's a right-of-way owned by the city so to speak is there any legal stance to us our responsibility if there's an accident in the room so the city has a responsibility to once it has accepted maintenance has responsibility to maintain infrastructure however the city is not responsible for the acts of private parties within the right-of-way so just as the city would not be responsible for you know a be a fender bender at a stop sign the city would not necessarily be responsible for a someone hitting a parked car in the right-of-way i know it'd be hard to estimate but do we have a ballpark figure what it cost the taxpayers to maintain all these right-of-ways by aerating them annually uh putting rock down so people could be parked there i'm assuming that was a question that come up uh we can definitely get a report together for the commission give you an idea because it's such an important subject commissioner in that report can you add how much it also costs us to continuously maintain these swells because that's what's happening that that was the whole reason why that was brought up about possibly doing uh percolating asphalt with percolating uh piping for those swell areas is because people are still going to park on that that's the discussion was that we were going to pay for to have the city come in and rock them or whatever you know that's on the taxpayers dollars when we've already created a pathway for them to park in our yard put additional cars um by a driveway extension that's all i have on it commissioner harriet thank you mayor sorry for my forgetfulness at the end of the day uh two two uh two comments actually the first one is i would like us to add the driveway concrete driveway extensions to that no permit cost um component i would like to i understand people that do do the rock nothing against that but if somebody's willing to do concrete i'd like to make it as absolutely easy as possible for them to do that and then second of all to commissioner calwell's point it shouldn't be on the rest of the taxpayers to pay to rock or pave over somebody's swale that wants to park there and i'm gonna give you the same line that was given to me when i wanted to do more with street lighting and that's let's put in a process for them to come up come together and create an mstu or how whatever mechanism it be and they can they can come together and do it themselves that's uh and it needs to be done on a like a block by block basis not just one house here and one house there it's it should be done in a in a way that has some consistency and some organization to it but according to what he says the swells from parking on them all the time would have to be maintained and that would be on the responsibility of the city would it not as far as air ratings for percolation and stuff and we're not in a flood zone right or in a flood time right now we're in a dry spell yeah but they you know as in deltona they cycle every so many years so there's definitely challenges there i i've got areas in district one that are parked on consistently and don't have a problem i've also got areas in district one where they park on them consistently and every single time it rains that swale in front of their house holds water for hours if not days where their neighbors percolate in 20 or 30 minutes i think there's a lot of inconsistencies within each property each group of properties that it would be hard to put an overall cost on it would just be disingenuous if we came through and said that it's going to cost us you know four million dollars a year to send somebody out and aerate all the swales not all the swales need it um and and i don't know that we could identify realistically which swales needed it whether it's a dime or a hundred thousand still on thank you mr mayor i did just want to clarify um the obligation for the city to maintain is once the city has accepted maintenance so through the permitting process the city can disclaim maintenance so the good example of that is already with the process to install a uh you know a driveway approach the city does not accept maintenance the city is permitting the installation of a structure within its right of way which is maintained by the adjoining property owner so that is something that could be accomplished if the commission so directs what responsibility does let's say the guy up here a little higher than me parking five cars in a row there compacts his water runs off his property runs into mine i'm in a little swell he's pushing all that water down to my swell how do we handle that situation and it seems to me that you know a broad no parking in a row would be the best option not that i'm trying to be an hoa but you know because you're going to have somebody say well he's allowed to park in a row over there and why am i not so that that's gonna if you can answer that and then we have two people that want to come up and do public comments at the end of the day whatever we come up with somebody's not going to be happy right i just want this commission to not be wish-washy like in the past not necessarily talking about us or anybody's in particular just whatever we end up coming up with whatever agreement we do we have to stick to it because i mean understand a residence we come up with an ordinance and then somehow it inconveniences somebody whoever it is and then we come back and we try to change it again whatever we do let's stick to it and stop driving our residents crazy that that's that's what we really got to focus on so can you please answer commissioner caldwell and then we'll go to our uh public comments yeah and i would just say the the city has the ability to conduct code enforcement actions for destruction of the right-of-way so if the someone is causing damage to city property to the city right-of-way there are code enforcement actions that can be brought to recoup those costs and to recoup the abatement um your other question about liability of flooding it's a more complicated nuanced issue um but there are a bit there are remedies available to the city to recoup the costs associated with abatement of destruction to its property thank you uh city clerk kathy bryan bryan if you can just uh put the request to speak there we go okay good evening please leave it on as well and compromise the word of the night um when it comes to parking on the road versus the right-of-way because the some of the roads are so narrow there's a lot of roads we keep talking about curbs there's a lot of roads that don't have curbs a lot of your major thoroughfares do but what about considering something like i think the ordinance now says something about they have they have to park like they have to be within a foot of the curb or the side of the road well that's a long distance when you have a narrow road why don't you consider allowing them to park at least a foot on the right-of-way you still have you can still have your line of sight and especially again when those curves are if you've got some areas too especially on your higher levels um traffic streets where maybe put no parking on curve um so far as your lawn maintenance and your guys to come and do your pool and stuff like that my neighbors we have an empty lot they used to always park right right there and it never made a difference to me but you know when it comes to parking in the street like that we've also had people do double park they have workers come and they're parked on both sides so i think that needs to be part of the education is if you have workers that are doing that you need to go talk to them tell them you can only park on one side of the street um we've had that happen more than once um i know you guys are limited but i think we really need to talk and work with developers i know they may not have to but when it comes to the size of our roads and the way the driveways are set and and whatnot i mean i i see people that are driving i have a house that were the cars like park parallel to the house they drive into the yard and then park in the driveway parallel so they can fix them the other thing is how many people came from a place where they had sewer and now they have septic tank do they know what that's going to do to their septic tank um the large parking large vehicle parking consider too that if they have something over it um a cover especially one that domes up at the top so that your debris i agree they need maintenance but your debris your leaf debris and whatnot falls off and doesn't collect like let's say within a boat take that into some consideration too and maybe allow if you have a cover you can keep a certain size here um you know people want goods and services but they don't want trucks the the that's how they it gets here that's how our goods get here semis but people don't want to give them anywhere to park so i think that's really really important nobody wants it in their backyard but we need to find places that that are going to do that um so far as the recreate the recreation vehicles any of them yes i agree i'm glad the two new ones are coming in because you're right we're going to need them um marissa if you're seeing cars the part seven at a time on the side of the house but they're on blocks or stilts then they're doing mechanical work which they're only supposed to be doing for a short amount of time and and that's that's covered so far as i know um education to our residents give them plus especially the guys with the recreation vehicles and that are going to have to do the off-site parking give them plenty of time tim blodgett good evening as usual i'm here to ruin somebody's day okay um uh i really wasn't going to say anything about this except that uh um i hear you don't want deltona turning into an hoa but you don't seem to mind turning it into a bedford stuyvesant that's disturbing i heard a quote that we're agreed that a fire truck needs 20 feet wide in order to operate and well the fire truck is about nine foot four inches wide and then we have a ladder truck that has stabilizers that come out of each side nine feet on each side well that's closer to 30 feet than 20 something you might want to consider as for the swales that everybody is so sure it's just parking and waiting i don't think so i've seen lowe's trucks make deliveries for uh sod and they're making the sod on one end of the um one into the block ten houses down the water pipes come popping out of the ground why because we live on a sandbar folks it's like i got construction going on next door they're tearing up the floors for plumbing i guess and all my wife's knickknacks are falling on the floor uh as far as aeration is concerned i'm sorry i came from the north one of the first things i wanted to do for my lawn was aerated you can't find a narrator in deltona short and simple good luck uh aside from that it's uh we've gone from front yards that used to park two cars head in to now you've got if you've got a large suv it's hanging over the sidewalk permanently i don't know why you want to lay all this on the residents i really think that you ought to consider starting with putting the codes back you worried about something being within 30 feet of a burning house how about the 10 feet away to the house next door because you don't have you don't have easements in between houses anymore i mean man use a little common sense anyway i'm sure this is going to be coming up a whole lot more um this whale should be out years ago there was uh what's his name big john whatever his name was i only remember one quote that the guy ever said and it was this don't touch my swales have a good night that ends public comment mayor city manager give me one minute go ahead jordan um mayor before you continue um can i just request that the commission um we go through each option real fast five five seven minutes um just get a yes and no on each option so we know what to bring back to the commission i will have edward bring it back up is that okay mayor yeah go ahead okay first option is whether or not we want to um really regulate on the basis of a design standard saying do you want to park on the street you know based on the width of the road because we can you know we can kind of try to regulate on that basis um and then that also then allows you to consider um you know there are different standards for one-way and two-way streets right so um having the design basis be the basis for your parking regulations all right uh all those in favor for option one just raise your hand to make it visually easier did can you so mr mayor the the direction we're looking for is that if you would like us to continue to explore this and bring back a more fully so you want us to give you recommendations based on those three options that's what i understand well whether or not we do continue to yeah whether or not you are interested in having staff bring back this we can pick all three options if we wanted to you could okay so just so the rest of the commission knows i got this particular yeah based on the width of the road and the design uh the design of the road at we get that part we're trying to figure out if you want us to give you a yes or no on each of the options right we're going to vote on each one right uh an yes option um and i think it to another another yes or no all right stop so let me do this slowly we have three options we're going to vote on option one if we vote yes you're going to continue looking towards that one as well we're going to get option two if we vote yes would you continue to look at that one as well yeah if we get option three you continue to go at that one as well if we vote yes or we can vote no on all of them and then you'll figure out a different route does the commission have that clear yes all right can we please start from the beginning option one option one do we want to uh look at parking regulation on the basis of roadway whiffs and design so if you're in favor of looking further into that please raise your hand both existing and new pardon for both existing and new yes existing and new there you go okay yes okay option two do we want to regulate on the basis of curvature of the road those that want to look into that more please raise your hand so that would be a no or a yes i saw two commissioner no so that that one's enough okay the majority thank you um option three um do we want to well well mayor can we make it a two-parter so i can get better direction first option is do you want to regulate on the basis of size of a lot yeah that's fire um to 30 feet all right raise your hand if you want to regulate the size of the lot raise your one person and a second follow-up is do you want us to regulate on the basis of uh what i presented earlier which was um keeping things clear of fire debris and the um any flammable hazards yeah okay you're yes on that one yep so you have two yeses yep perfect okay city manager you're in comments that was a third option right that was third option okay yeah well i got two more you told i was told three not five go ahead sorry um do you want it to sorry bear uh do you want it to pursue the um the basis of creating a private side program for whales and um green um creating that rig that that set of regulations for whales um to parking conversion those in favor just raise your hand we can we can um present to you the different options for further discussion where there is what it is from a public side or what it is from a private side mdsu okay those in favor okay so you have that one's three and three so it fails okay no rail conversions okay and then i think the last thing that we really need is uh revising rules for service vehicles uh in terms of allowing for them to park during service calls okay those in favor of that please raise your hand okay we really need to be clear and concise so that it can't be used abused or you know otherwise okay are we sure that was it we're good you know your manager please thank you you're good all right so this specific uh workshop is adjourned staff how much let's give them three minutes so they can switch over and uh the pnz board can start