Wild West of AI: A Conversation with Mercedes Kilmer — Terms of Service

[0:02] This is Terms of Service. I'm CNN tech reporter Claire Duffy. [0:06] Before his death last year, legendary actor Val Kilmer was cast to star in As Deep as the Grave, [0:13] a film about archaeologists in the American Southwest exploring Navajo history. [0:18] But Kilmer never ended up being able to make it to set after filming delays due to COVID [0:23] and the advancement of his throat cancer. When Kilmer passed away last April, the writer and [0:29] director of the film, Cordy Voorhees, was determined to keep him in the role. And when the film releases [0:34] later this year, Val Kilmer will still be playing the role, sort of. It will be an AI replica of him, [0:41] built from a trove of existing images, video, and audio from his earlier work. In the trailer, [0:47] you can see and hear a brief clip of the AI Val Kilmer at the end, and I've got to say it's [0:53] convincing, if a little uncanny. Don't fear the dead, and don't fear me. [0:58] Voorhees and his team created this AI replica of Val Kilmer with the blessing of his family, [1:04] including his daughter, the musician, actress, and producer Mercedes Kilmer, who's my guest today. [1:10] Mercedes and I will talk about how she came to this decision, and what this tech could mean for [1:15] the future of Hollywood. My conversation with Mercedes Kilmer after this short break. [1:24] Mercedes Kilmer, thank you so much for doing this. We really appreciate it. [1:28] Thank you for having me. [1:29] Obviously, we're here to talk about this one very specific role, but I wanted to ask what your [1:34] favorite film is of your dad's, or one that you like to return to, if you have one. [1:39] I love Heat. I think it's a classic, Elinor. It's a great film. I love that. I love Tombstone [1:47] as well. I think his performance in Tombstone is incredible. [1:50] Love it. So when director Corti Voorhees and his brother John, who's co-producing this film, [1:58] first approached you about building this AI likeness of your dad for As Deep as the Grave, [2:03] how did they pitch that idea to you, and what was your immediate reaction? [2:08] It was actually my dad's manager who approached me. I didn't speak to the filmmakers until much later, [2:14] and when he first brought it up to me, I wasn't listening to what he was saying, so I just dismissed [2:21] it. We get a lot of offers to do things or to have my dad represented in certain ways and things, [2:31] so I just thought it was another thing and I didn't really listen, and especially when he said AI, [2:35] I was like, no, I'm not interested. And then I talked to him a bit more about it and understood [2:43] the circumstances differently, so then I agreed to do it after speaking to him. [2:48] Okay. And did you have reservations before agreeing? You mentioned especially the AI piece. You were like, [2:55] no, I'm not interested. What was sort of your thought process as you were considering this? [3:00] Well, you know, my brother and I are sort of tasked with, as every child is, you know, [3:07] keeping our dad's legacy and seeing through a lot of the projects that he had emotion when he was [3:15] alive, so once I understood, like, his involvement in the project differently, then I agreed to participate [3:23] and help finalize the deal. Why was it ultimately important for you to say yes to this project? [3:31] My dad really wanted to be a part of this production, and he—so that's why. I, you know, [3:42] wanted to see it through, and I think it was 2018 was the beginning of the production, [3:49] and so my dad was originally intended to do the, you know, act himself. [3:54] To be the role, yeah. [3:55] And they wrote it with him in mind. [3:58] Another big factor was that the film would be shooting in New Mexico, [4:02] Val Kilmer was deeply involved in advocating for New Mexico's film industry, [4:07] including lobbying for tax incentives for productions and serving as honorary chairman [4:12] of the Santa Fe Film Festival. [4:14] So it was a New Mexico production, and he really wanted to be part of it, [4:19] and obviously he wanted to act the role himself. Then when the filming was delayed because of COVID, [4:26] then by the time the production got underway, the—my dad's illness had advanced and he was no longer able to play the part. [4:35] So then they started talking about doing his voice with AI, which the technology and the funding like wasn't there at that time. [4:42] But then later, he did his voice in AI in Top Gun 2, which he was very, like, into, you know. [4:50] And so then they were talking about doing the voice in AI, and then my dad got more sick, [4:57] and then they were able to finally—then they started talking about, like, [5:01] what if the character was just actually, like, modeled using his likeness, you know, [5:07] and the character was, like, completely an AI character. [5:10] And so it had kind of evolved from that, and I think my dad always—my dad is a child of the Cold War, you know. [5:19] My dad had a very different experience in technology than maybe our generation has. [5:24] Not to make assumptions about how you feel about it, but, like, I think people my age have a lot more of a wariness about these technologies. [5:37] My dad always saw technology as something that could expand the human potential, [5:43] and it so happened that his physical capabilities were waning at exactly the same time as this technology was coming to be possible. [5:53] So it allowed him to participate in projects that he wouldn't have otherwise been able to. [5:59] Yeah, I was going to ask if you and your dad had ever had conversations about doing this sort of thing before he died, [6:06] or just about AI more broadly. [6:08] Absolutely. I think he always—he was like, why don't you get it to refinance your car? [6:14] And, you know, like, I'm very—I play acoustic guitar. [6:17] It's not a part of my life at all. [6:19] I don't even have the—I don't have the app on my phone. [6:22] Like, I—my experience with AI, I'm not against it. [6:28] If I don't—it doesn't have a use to me because I very much relate to art as a practitioner rather than as, like, a consumer. [6:37] I'm not interested in the end—like, I'm a musician, right? [6:40] I don't feel that anyone needs my—one more album. [6:45] I need the process of creating the album, so it's not really relevant to me to, like, get AI to play the guitar for me. [6:53] But my dad always was like, well, could you do something that you couldn't do? [6:58] My dad always thought technology as something that could augment or expand our potential as humans rather than to replace us. [7:05] So he saw it very optimistically, and when Top Gun was coming out, we talked a lot about it. [7:10] And I was like, what do you want to do what? [7:13] Because this is, like, 2019. [7:16] Right. [7:17] Yeah, before, like, ChatGPT craze had brought this to everybody's brains. [7:21] Yeah, and he was like, I would be in a video game. [7:24] Like, relax. [7:26] So, and then I would be like, don't you think it's taking jobs? [7:30] And, you know, I spoke with an actor the other night, which was a really interesting conversation, and I was telling him about this, and I asked him how he felt about it. [7:41] And he was saying that once you get to be over 50, your work and your career is established as an actor, my dad felt that you're really managing your IP rather than your, so you are still, of course, relating to your work as a craftsperson, but then you also have this business, and you're seeing in what projects can my IP that I've cultivated, you know, be of use. [8:11] And so, you know, my friend who is an actor was like, it's not so much taking jobs because I'm in certain franchises that I've already been in, and so maybe we could expand the storytelling within those franchises. [8:26] It's creating new jobs. [8:28] And I think when my dad had a really healthy perspective on it that was very creative and not a threat to our creative capacity. [8:38] This is a hot-button topic in Hollywood right now. [8:42] How can actors and writers protect their image and intellectual property, or IP, in the age of AI? [8:48] That concern was at the heart of the actors and writer strikes in Hollywood in 2023, and it's an evolving conversation as the technology continues to improve. [8:58] Yeah, I was going to ask you about that, sort of what your thoughts were on AI-generated performances prior to this, especially as an actress and musician yourself. [9:09] Oh, I mean, it's so case-by-case. [9:13] I mean, my dad did so much work with the Native American community in New Mexico and with the Film Commission in bringing tax credits to New Mexico. [9:20] And my dad, being signed on to this project, allowed them to get funding for the Navajo Nation, especially during and after COVID, which is really important. [9:29] And so in this case, this AI-generated performance had a real measurable human impact. [9:37] And I think that's what technology is, you know, like a fork. [9:42] It's something that can, like you said, expand our abilities. [9:49] And if you're really using it as a tool for something that's ultimately a human thing, it's not destructive or threatening. [10:01] And of course, it does have that potential as well. [10:03] But to answer your question, I think that it's so case-by-case. [10:10] Would it be appropriate to make an AI of my grandfather, who didn't, who's also passed away, who didn't like to be photographed? [10:16] No, my father spent 50 years, my dad was working since he was 11, you know, cultivating this value of his persona. [10:29] So for him, would I want that? [10:32] No, I also wouldn't want to play Batman and be on a box of cereal. [10:36] I would think that would freak me out if my face was on a box of cereal. [10:39] My dad had a completely different relationship. [10:42] So it's really case-by-case. [10:44] My mom is also an actor. [10:45] My mom would never, my mom has a very, relates to her work really differently. [10:53] She wouldn't want to do that. [10:54] So it depends on the performer and it depends on, yeah, I think also just, like I said, at the place that they are in their career. [11:03] Right. [11:04] Have you seen any of the scenes with your dad's likeness yet? [11:08] No, I haven't. [11:09] I saw, I saw a couple images. [11:11] You know, it's hard, I'm still like very much grieving and it is quite hard for me to look at any photos of my dad or anything. [11:19] I mean, I have photos all over the house. [11:20] I don't need to watch that. [11:22] But it's not that I, I don't really want to watch any footage of him because it's hard to, you know. [11:30] Yeah, I can understand that. [11:32] I can understand, too, why it's sort of especially, on one hand, it's very cool. [11:37] And like you're saying, it sort of expands the potential of his storytelling ability, even though he's passed. [11:42] And I can imagine on a very personal level, it would be challenging and maybe kind of weird to see. [11:48] It's so weird. [11:49] These things that he didn't really say. [11:53] Well, yeah, but, you know, it's imagine like me being six years old and my dad is like one day is in like the Roman Empire and one day he's in the Navy. [12:07] Like it's all already weird. [12:11] Like the whole thing is so weird and this always has been. [12:15] And it's amazing. [12:16] It's magical and like my dad's entire life was very magical and he was a very like far out person. [12:25] And this is very like in keeping with this is exactly like how he always has been, but just adjusted for the time. [12:34] So I'm used to it, but it's also weird. [12:38] When we come back, Mercedes talks about what this project could mean for the future of Hollywood and for all of us. [12:44] We'll be right back. [12:45] If other filmmakers have sort of having read this news are interested in using an AI recreation of your dad, have you thought about whether you would consider that or sort of what you would what you would consider if you were asked about that? [13:04] Probably not, because he knew about this and it's so specific and it's a story that he he really wanted to tell. [13:13] And, you know, at a certain point, like I said, in his career, his persona sort of adds information to the character. [13:23] Of course, you're still playing the role. [13:25] But he is he wanted to be part of this and he agreed to do it. [13:30] And I feel very confident and my brother as well, speaking for both of us, we're we were so close to their dad. [13:37] And and I feel very confident in our ability to steward his legacy and stuff, but not to make choices for him necessarily. [13:48] So I probably wouldn't I can't imagine a context in which I would have I would only do do stuff that he had already agreed to. [13:58] That makes sense. Obviously, this is somewhat different, but there is this growing trend of people creating AI replicas of loved ones that they've lost on their own. [14:09] And in some cases, it really brings people comfort. In some cases, it ends up being really challenging or even upsetting to people. [14:16] I'm curious what you think of that trend, having said yes to this project, obviously kind of different, but in some ways, like this recreation of a loved one with this technology. [14:26] I think there's a huge issue of consent that is worth, you know, bringing up. [14:35] I don't know. Like, I'm not good. I don't want to like no shame to anyone. [14:41] Totally. Yeah. Having that desire. I don't want to criticize that. [14:45] But like, I think this was my dad's business and his business, like I said, it's really bound up with like the tax credits to his hometown and like operating our business. [14:58] It's like we now operate my dad's LLC. [15:02] So as a business decision for us, for someone that was a lifelong storyteller and performer and business person, yes, it makes sense to participate in this. [15:15] But yeah, I would not want to make it AI of my other lost friends and family necessarily. [15:30] Yeah. Because they didn't consent to being in a film. [15:36] Yeah. The way this technology has advanced just makes me wonder if like very soon we end up in a place where people's families start having end of life conversations where you put in your will, like whether you would or would not be comfortable being sort of replicated by AI after your death. [15:53] Yeah. Because to your point, like this is so nuanced, I think actually being involved in this production was really important to us because it gave us a way to structure our rights to our dad's image. [16:10] And it gave us an opportunity to do that before it's too late because soon it will. [16:14] I mean, right now, anybody can make a deep fake of my brother. [16:17] Sorry, my dad or and my brother and anyone. [16:22] And, you know, like I can make a video of you as a corgi right on TikTok and like have zero consequences like you can't do anything. [16:35] And so it's really important that actors like I think actually like embracing it and structuring it legally, structuring it and making sure what we can is really important because this will actually protect us in the future for when people do use my dad on my AI likeness of my dad unauthorized. [16:54] So it's really important to, I think, for actors and anybody, I think, to figure out how to own the rights to their data, which is weird conceptualizing it as data. [17:07] Totally. Yeah. I was going to ask sort of what you think this trend in this new possibility means for the future of Hollywood. [17:16] And it sounds like this piece of of like actors need to get a handle on this is really important. [17:24] Absolutely. [17:24] I went to art school now 10 years ago, 12 years ago. [17:29] It's so ingrained in me and even like growing up with my parents being artists, like I really relate to media as a practitioner rather than as a consumer. [17:40] Like even if I'm looking at this painting, like I'm seeing that I have a picture of a painting on the wall, seeing that not as an image to be consumed, but as a record of a person, a human being's concentration upon the subject matter. [17:54] And because I paint or, you know, because I make music, I don't feel threatened by it because it's so couldn't accomplish what I am seeking to get out of the process of art making. [18:15] So there's no, to me, there will always be storytelling. [18:19] I'm learning piano right now. [18:20] And of course, I could get it AI to teach me piano. [18:24] I could get it AI to play piano. [18:26] But if I didn't have to call my friends to go to their house to play piano, I wouldn't have friends like it gives me an excuse to live my life. [18:36] It's the record is really writing me, you know, crafting me. [18:42] And so I don't I don't look at it as threatening because and my dad didn't see it as threatening either because he was such a such a performer that how could how could it ever be replaced? [18:56] You know, there will always be art. [18:59] I think theater is coming back in a huge way because we are having even like my friend was saying the other day, perfume sales are like through the historical high. [19:08] Because we really want to balance this new dimension with sensory experience, right? [19:17] Yeah, people want something tangible and to and I think what you're saying about your experience as an artist is so interesting because I think at least that it is more interesting to consume art knowing that that process has taken place and there was someone going through this going through this process. [19:38] I also really relate like I I think about that with writing. [19:41] I don't want AI to write for me because I think by writing. [19:45] So that makes so much sense to me. [19:47] The possibility of AI is a undermining of embodiment and it's an under potentially an undermining of experience. [19:55] And we have to be judicious with how we use it, but we have to be judicious with how we use everything. [20:01] Yeah. [20:02] What have you been hearing from folks since you announced this project? [20:06] What kind of reaction have you gotten? [20:08] Well, I think everyone that knows my dad was like, of course, like, yeah, of course he's doing this. [20:15] Like I said, it's weird. [20:16] A lot of actors have been the most supportive and like industry professionals were like, oh, yeah, you've got to license it. [20:22] You've got you've got to structure the remuneration. [20:26] You have to protect the rights, the royalties, all of that stuff. [20:29] So people that deal with that frequently were very like supportive and understanding. [20:34] I did get, of course, like some comments being like artists need to protect themselves from their children being able to use their IP. [20:44] And it's funny because like that's literally like my dad's wishes that we do manage his IP, not something that he. [20:54] Right. [20:55] You know, it's my dad trained me for 30 years to take over his business and to learn, learn him and what he values. [21:04] And, you know, it's like as anyone's I think anyone would hope their children would do when they get. [21:11] And and some people are like, I can't I got comments being like, how dare you like profit off of this? [21:19] And and I'm like, would you rather we like not do you go to your job to like not profit off of it? [21:26] Like it's very important. [21:27] My dad had a business to run and it's my honor. [21:30] It's my right as his child. [21:32] And also it's an honor to step into doing that. [21:35] It's something I'm very proud to do and something that he was very proud to leave me and my brother in charge with. [21:40] But I think people project a lot of things on actors and there is of course this technology. [21:49] Any change is like frightening. [21:51] And I think that's the nature of celebrity. [21:55] Hmm. [21:57] You know, people feel like they can comment. [21:59] Yeah. [22:00] And and they think you put yourself out there and you do become a sort of vessel for people's fears, you know, so I don't I don't doesn't really like bother me. [22:09] Yeah, it sounds like this particular role, too, is really honoring so much of what your dad cared about. [22:15] Absolutely. [22:16] My dad's family like are real old Southwestern people. [22:20] My dad's great grandfather grandfather was alive in this time period. [22:26] And my dad was really interested in telling the stories of the the old West and particularly like this conflict, the colonization of that area. [22:36] And like is something he really wanted to be involved in and something that him being a well known person was able to like secure the funding, like I said, for the Navajo Nation, which really suffered a lot during COVID. [22:50] I was out there and and so if we can use technology to bring real material benefits to Earth, that is what it should be used for. [23:04] You know, yeah. [23:05] I'm curious what you think filmmakers should consider when thinking about using an AI generated performance and also what the audience should consider when they're watching it or consuming it. [23:17] I don't know. [23:18] You know, I've never really played a video game, but I would imagine that it's the same thing. [23:25] It's like it's a character, but it's really like open source, like no one's inside of it. [23:34] You're inside. [23:35] I don't know. [23:36] Right. [23:37] Like, I don't want to see that. [23:38] I don't even want to see like this kind of like no again, like no shade. [23:43] I don't even like like this sort of a 24 like street casting thing. [23:46] I'm not interested. [23:47] I love actors. [23:48] I want to see people acting that are trained at acting. [23:52] I love like the craft of acting. [23:55] I want to go to the theater and see actors. [23:57] I don't even like films really that are too reliant on cinematography to tell a story. [24:01] Like I love actors. [24:02] So it's not like my cup of tea. [24:05] But I also like there's a million million billion reasons to make a movie and to tell a story. [24:15] So it's like if you like the story, if the story resonates with someone, why should you restrict someone from telling a story that could resonate with somebody? [24:22] Yeah, that storytelling being at the heart of it seems really key. [24:27] Yes. [24:28] Well, Mercedes, thank you so much. [24:30] We really appreciate you doing this. [24:32] Thank you so much for having me. [24:35] It's such a pleasure to get to talk about this. [24:39] As Deep as the Grave doesn't have an official release date yet, but it has already provoked a lot of conversation around what AI might mean for storytelling, for how we relate to beloved figures we've lost, and who's in charge of making those decisions. [24:55] For Mercedes, having conversations with her father prior to his death about his wishes helped her and her family decide how to move forward. [25:04] She says more actors will need to start considering their own approach to this technology. [25:09] But used thoughtfully, it could enable us to connect with artists in a new way. [25:15] And those conversations aren't just for public figures. [25:18] As Mercedes pointed out, anyone can make a deep fake video of anyone these days without much repercussion. [25:26] It's something worth thinking about for all of us and perhaps discussing with your own loved ones. [25:31] In what ways would you want your work or likeness to be used by AI after you're gone, if at all? [25:37] That's it for this week's episode of Terms of Service. [25:39] I'm Claire Duffy. [25:40] Talk to you next week.