Why Ukraine may restrict its booming surrogacy business — Global News Podcast

[0:00] Welcome to the Global News Podcast from the BBC. I'm Celia Hatton and today I'm joined by our [0:05] global health correspondent, Sofia Betiza. Sofia, you've been looking at the political debate around [0:12] surrogacy in Ukraine. Many people might not realise that Ukraine has such a big surrogacy [0:19] industry, even after four years of war. Yeah, Ukraine is the sort of second biggest destination [0:26] for surrogacy after the US. And when Russia invaded Ukraine, obviously those numbers went down. The [0:33] number of foreigners, of people travelling to Ukraine to have babies through surrogacy dropped. [0:39] But what we found is that sort of nearly five years on, those numbers are going back up and they're [0:44] nearly sort of, they've nearly gone back to pre-war levels. I know that a lot of countries globally [0:50] are grappling with regulatory issues around surrogacy. But to focus on Ukraine, tell us about [0:57] a bill that could restrict surrogacy in Ukraine and what it might mean. [1:03] So at the moment, surrogacy is legal in Ukraine. And that's partly why so many people choose it [1:09] as a destination. As you said, you've got other countries around the world that are banning [1:14] surrogacy, that are restricting it. In Italy, it's a universal ban. So Ukraine, it's entirely legal [1:21] in Ukraine. But the thing is that that could be about to change because of this bill. This bill wants [1:27] to restrict surrogacy, effectively banning it for foreigners. So unless one of the two is Ukrainian, [1:35] they won't be able to go ahead and do surrogacy in Ukraine. [1:38] And so why? What's the logic behind that? [1:42] There's a few reasons. The first one is that at the moment, this is a huge business in Ukraine, [1:49] but it's not regulated. There is no regulation. And there are things that could go wrong in [1:54] surrogacy deals. So first of all, they want to regulate it. There's also an element of Ukraine [1:59] having to sort of deal with a demographic crisis. And so quite a few politicians we spoke to [2:05] said to us, well, if Ukrainian women are having babies, they should have babies for Ukrainians. [2:10] They shouldn't export babies abroad. But I think sort of the idea is that to bring in regulation [2:16] to protect the children and also to protect vulnerable women. [2:21] This is such a complex issue. And you've been speaking to people on all sides of this issue [2:27] inside Ukraine and outside Ukraine. Let's go through them a little bit. And you can tell [2:31] us more about your experience of reporting on this story and the people that you met, [2:35] starting with Karina, one of the surrogates that you interviewed. [2:38] Yeah. So Karina, when she was 17, her family home in Bakhmut was bombed and destroyed. She said, [2:47] everything is gone. Photos, it's just rubble and ashes. Obviously, Bakhmut is near the front line. [2:53] And it was at the very beginning of the war, heavily contested between Russia and Ukraine. [2:58] So she had to leave her home at only 17 and really struggled to make money. And she got pregnant, [3:06] has her own one-year-old daughter. And there was this moment where she was sort of buying bread and [3:13] she was counting pennies to buy bread. And she just couldn't afford bread. She couldn't afford [3:18] formula for her child or nappies. And so that's when she decided she had to take drastic measures. [3:25] And she was actually initially against surrogacy. She thought it was something really, [3:30] you know, not for her, but that sort of her situation and the war changed her mind. [3:36] The war changed her mind in terms of wanting to do it. But has she also changed her mind in terms [3:41] of how she wants to maybe help couples who are struggling with infertility? [3:46] So yes and no. She said to us that when she first decided to do surrogacy, she was very angry [3:52] at this situation. But she's now accepted it and she seems content. But, you know, she is ultimately [4:00] doing it for the money. Interestingly, she was supposed to get more money because she was pregnant [4:06] with twins. And that's an extra sort of payment on top. But unfortunately, one of them died. And so [4:13] her pay was cut. And that's in her contract. [4:16] How lucrative is this for the women who take part? [4:20] So it depends. But normally they would make about 17,000 US dollars, which in Ukraine is about double [4:28] the yearly salary. So it's quite a lot of money. They mostly get it at the end. So it's very much [4:34] linked on how the pregnancy goes. But we spoke to a surrogate who's 37. And we asked her, [4:40] like, is this money going to change your life? And she said, well, she'd done surrogacy twice. This was [4:46] her second time she's currently pregnant. And she said, this is good money. But I have two children. I [4:51] have debt. I don't have a house. This is not that much money. It's OK. And that was quite surprising to [4:56] me. In terms of how much it costs to do surrogacy in Ukraine, it's around 60,000 US dollars to begin [5:03] with. But if you look at other countries like the US, where it is also legal, it's at least double the [5:09] price. [5:11] And what about the women who carry these babies? If something goes wrong health-wise [5:16] with the baby or for them, what happens? Does the clinic take care of them? [5:21] So the clinics say that they do. And they look after their surrogates really well. They have [5:27] checkups nearly every week. We were inside one of Ukraine's biggest surrogacy clinics. And there [5:33] are about 30 women queuing to get their scans. So they do say that they are very, very careful. [5:38] But of course, there's an element here of they want the pregnancy to go well because it's [5:44] a transaction. And they're actually, if they think there might be a problem with the fetus, [5:50] with the baby, they normally do abortions because ultimately they want the pregnancy, this very [5:57] expensive medical procedure to go well for the people who are paying for it. [6:03] I mean, that's what it keeps coming back to, right? That this is a business. [6:06] Yeah. And I think two things can be true at once, right? We spoke to intended parents who said that [6:11] this made their dreams come true. They were able to have, you know, a child after nearly 10 years [6:18] of trying. But ultimately, it is a business. And what I thought was really interesting in Ukraine is [6:24] that about, we were told that about 80% of intended parents are delayed in coming to Ukraine to collect [6:31] their babies. It's often weeks. It's sometimes months. One woman we spoke to cared for someone [6:37] else's surrogate babies for nearly a year. And so what critics say is that this reflects the fact that [6:45] ultimately surrogacy in Ukraine is a transaction. [6:48] I thought it was interesting in your reporting how you had interviewed the surrogate mother who [6:55] has been affected by the war in Ukraine, but you also interviewed a couple who use surrogacy services [7:02] in Ukraine who were also affected by the conflict. Can you tell me about that couple and what they told [7:07] you? [7:08] Yeah. So Elena and Igor tried to have children for nine years and were unsuccessful. And they decided to [7:16] go for surrogacy in Ukraine because they run out of options and they could afford it. And the whole [7:23] process was, you know, really stressful because you're effectively traveling to a country at war. [7:29] You are, you know, for nine months, your surrogate mother is pregnant in a country at war. And then you [7:36] get to that country. And for those sort of, they stayed in Ukraine for about a couple of weeks waiting [7:42] for the right documents. And they were in and out of bomb shelters every day with a newborn. It's a lot [7:49] all of a sudden. We spoke to couples from the UK who actually had to stay in Ukraine for three months. [7:57] And just having that reality for three months, being in and out of bomb shelters is really, [8:02] you know, as they said, intense, but they all say it's worth it because of the final result. You know, [8:07] they become a family. They get a baby. In your story, you also explored some of the real downsides [8:14] of surrogacy or some of the real costs. You talked about a little boy who'd been abandoned [8:18] by his biological parents. Can you tell me more about him? [8:23] Yeah, I think that was possibly the most sort of shocking thing that we saw when we were in Ukraine. [8:30] This boy was born premature. He had a severe brain injury and he's, you know, he'll require [8:37] care for the rest of his life. So when the surrogacy agency that handled the surrogacy informed his [8:46] intended parents, they just disappeared. They decided they did not want him. And they just, [8:52] they were impossible to reach. So they turned to the surrogate mother. She wasn't interested either. [8:58] Legally, she doesn't have any responsibility. The responsibility is with the intended parents. [9:05] And so this child who's now five years old lives in a children's home. His file was viewed by about 15 [9:12] families, but nobody was interested. And it's very, very unlikely that he'll get adopted. And that is [9:18] a really good example of why politicians want to bring in this law, because at the moment, [9:25] legally, the intended parents are responsible. But how do you enforce that if they just disappear, [9:30] if they live in another continent? And you also spoke with a woman's rights activist who also [9:35] gave some reasons as to why she was against surrogacy. Yeah, she, well, first of all, she [9:40] strongly believes that surrogacy agencies target vulnerable women. She says that since Russia's [9:47] invasion of Ukraine, that the number of women who are, in her words, desperate, looking for a way [9:54] to make ends meet is growing. And so they are more susceptible for something like this. And she [9:59] thinks that even if now they think they're making an informed choice, in a few years, they might feel [10:06] differently, that trauma might hit them later. And she also points to the fact that about 10 years ago, [10:13] surrogacy in Ukraine was very lucrative for women, they could buy a house with that money, whereas now, [10:19] it doesn't pay that well. So she thinks it's extremely unethical. She actually thinks [10:23] the law doesn't go far enough, and it should, surrogacy should be banned altogether. [10:28] Sophia, if this bill is passed, what does it mean for the women who make money right now [10:33] as surrogates? What did they tell you? Well, everyone I spoke to was really concerned [10:39] about this bill, and they were very much against it. Because in a way, for a lot of women, this has [10:45] become a lifeline in a country that is at war, where they might have lost their homes, their livelihoods, [10:51] the possibility to have stable jobs. And so they very much think that this is a way to help [10:57] couples have a child and make money for themselves. So the women I spoke to are very much against it. [11:05] You also profile an agency that deals with a lot of surrogate pregnancies. What did they tell you? [11:12] How will they react? Or how will the whole industry react if the bill is passed? [11:16] Interestingly, they were not very worried about this, because they say that the demand for surrogacy [11:24] is huge, and it's growing. And so they feel that as long as there is demand, they'll find a way to [11:31] operate and to survive. And so they feel that if surrogacy in Ukraine, I think we should clarify, [11:37] surrogacy wouldn't be banned completely, it would just be banned for foreigners. Foreigners are about [11:41] 95% of the people who do it. And they would just relocate to a different country, possibly Georgia, [11:48] they talked about Azerbaijan. So in a way, they'll survive. [11:53] It was great to speak with you, Sophia. Thank you. Our global health correspondent, Sophia Betiza. [11:58] And if you want to hear more from the Global News Podcast, click the link below. Thanks for joining us.