Why Trump's DOJ is bringing back firing squads for federal executions

[0:00] So there's been a striking announcement by the Department of Justice today. [0:03] It is expanding the methods of execution for federal death penalty cases to include death by firing squad. [0:09] Right now, five states allow death by firing squad for those convicted of the death penalty who have exhausted the appeal process. [0:16] In March, a South Carolina man convicted of a double murder became the fourth person to be put to death by firing squad since the 1970s. [0:23] We're joined now by death penalty expert, Karina Karina Barrett-Lane. [0:29] She's the author of Secrets of the Killing State, the Untold Story of Lethal Injection, also a law professor at the University of Richmond. [0:36] Karina, thanks so much for being with us. What is your reaction to this news? [0:41] I mean, I think in part it's a move of desperation. [0:46] It's a reflection of how difficult executions are by lethal injection to get the drugs, to carry them out in some sort of competent manner. [0:57] I think also, though, it is a move towards explicit brutality. [1:05] The one benefit of lethal injection is that people could tell themselves that these people are sort of drifting off to forever sleep. [1:14] That will no longer be the case with execution by firing squad. [1:19] The state's violence will be explicit. [1:22] Is there an argument to be made that a firing squad is perhaps a more humane method of execution? [1:31] Because there have been repeatedly stories reported out about lethal injection, for example, not working the way that it's designed to. [1:40] That's absolutely true. The botch rate for lethal injection is somewhere between seven and eight percent. [1:50] It's double all of the other methods because it's so complicated. [1:55] Firing squad, by contrast, is one of the simplest ways to execute. [2:01] And, you know, as far as humane, I mean, I could say it's faster. [2:06] I mean, it's you're being shot to death. [2:09] So I don't know about humane. [2:12] I suppose it depends on how you define it. [2:14] But definitely it would be faster than the average death by lethal injection, which is running now around 18 minutes. [2:23] So so you have that. [2:25] I think, though, at the same time, it's more difficult for the executioners and for what we're asking them to do. [2:34] Yeah, because there's a burden on members of the firing squad and some of the states that have this as a method of execution take steps to try to limit the actual knowledge or awareness of those pulling the trigger about who actually committed the execution. [2:53] Right. Well, states do it differently. [2:57] Some states like Utah have one member of the firing squad of the firing squad firing a blank. [3:04] Other states like South Carolina, South Carolina has a three person firing squad and none of them have blanks. [3:12] But as someone who has shot M-16s in the military, I think it's really hard to say that just because you are shooting a blank that you wouldn't know. [3:24] That you were also part of it. [3:26] And, you know, again, you pull a trigger and there's blood and there's somebody dying in front of you. [3:34] And so it is really, really hard for these executioners to separate themselves, whether they are shooting a blank or not. [3:45] And now the DOJ says that it's seeking the death penalty for 44 defendants. [3:49] Just for context, federal executions are pretty rare. [3:53] According to the Death Penalty Information Center, since 1977, just 16 people have been executed on the federal level. [4:01] And 13 of them were during President Trump's first term. [4:05] But on the state level, more than 1,600 people have been executed since 1977, according to the Center. [4:12] And last year, three of them were killed by firing squad in Carolina. [4:18] Rob, why is the Trump administration so keen on bringing back the death penalty just in general? [4:25] Because 13 out of 16 death penalty cases since the 70s in one presidential term is incredible to think about. [4:32] But the reason I'm asking that is because here's what the stats say. [4:38] Since 1973, 202 former death row prisoners have been exonerated of all charges related to the wrongful convictions that have put them on death row in the first place. [4:47] There is a great degree of error here. [4:50] Why are they so obsessed with the death penalty? [4:52] Oh, Abby, you came to me first on this one. [4:54] I'm a newly confirmed Catholic as of Easter Sunday. [4:59] So you put me in a tough spot here. [5:00] Congratulations. [5:01] That's awesome. [5:02] Wow. [5:03] No, I'll try to answer from the perspective that maybe the Trump administration is approaching this. [5:08] So I think a couple of factors. [5:09] Number one, we know that during the Biden administration, that president moved away from the death penalty at the federal level. [5:15] And so Donald Trump, as you showed in the numbers, obviously believes that the death penalty is an effective deterrence when it comes to some crimes. [5:22] I think secondarily what the DOJ has said in this particular case of bringing back these other types of executions is that pharmaceutical companies aren't supplying the drugs for lethal injections. [5:31] And those lethal injections sometimes result in more suffering for those who are on death row. [5:37] And so these other forms of execution may be a better way. [5:42] A firing squad? [5:42] Yeah, that's the merciful, like, you know, shot in your stomach with a big bullet. [5:47] Yeah, getting shot by several bullets. [5:48] Look, I... [5:50] There's no way to say that's more kind, that it's more merciful. [5:54] There's just no way. [5:56] Well, look, I've been a criminal justice guy for 30-plus years, and I think Americans would be shocked by how much error there is in these death penalty convictions. [6:10] If you are in the wrong neighborhood, if you don't have a lot of money, you're going to get very bad counsel. [6:18] And then you're going to get a sentence that's very hard to get out of, and it can take years and years. [6:24] And sometimes the clock runs out, and people are put to death that the entire system knows are innocent. [6:29] But it's just a system, it's once you get that bad outcome early on, it's almost impossible to roll it back. [6:36] So what you don't want to do is to rush more people into a situation where they're going to be killed. [6:42] I don't care if it's with a needle or with a rifle, because they can't come back. [6:46] And so I think when Americans look at the system and they realize how fragile it is, how many people wind up in, if you're rich and guilty, you're better off than if you're poor and innocent in our system. [6:59] And that's a problem. [7:01] I will say, I've been Catholic all my life, pretty much. [7:04] It is a religion that was founded on capital punishment, when you think about it, you know, crucifixion, which is ironic of all things, you know. [7:11] But this is a symptom of what I like to call MAGA masculinity, you know. [7:16] And MAGA masculinity has to express itself in the amount of kills you make, you know, the disses, the owns, you know, the way that you have to slam people, you have to deal with force, shithole countries, words like that. [7:29] You know, it's not a display of leadership, which is a good sign of masculinity. [7:34] It's a good trait, you know. [7:35] It's a sign of tearing down and using force and destruction and all these things. [7:40] Even his tweet about destroying an entire civilization, there's no reason to tweet something like that. [7:45] But it's, I call that MAGA masculinity, that kind of form. [7:48] It's in that. [7:49] Perhaps to your point, I mean, take a look at this tweet from Congressman Tim Burchett. [7:54] But it says, now do hanging in response to the firing spot. [8:00] I mean, is that supposed to be funny? [8:01] I don't think he's joking. [8:03] I think he's being actually quite serious. [8:06] Yeah, I agree. [8:06] Public hangings. [8:09] Look, he doesn't have the power to do this. [8:11] But the idea that that would be brought back into the public sphere, given history. [8:18] Yeah, Abby, I think that tweets like that and even this is a story are way off base. [8:24] And I'm just going to echo some of my colleagues about the faith piece. [8:27] Like, I'm a pro-life guy from the womb to the tomb. [8:30] The last capital punishment on earth that was the payment for the sins of the world was Jesus Christ on the cross. [8:36] And so I don't think that we should be doing these types of things anyway. [8:39] I think that if people commit bad crimes, they should spend the rest of their life in jail, if that's what the court levies against them. [8:45] But, you know, I wish the president, this is a time where I wish the president and his communications team would lean into the wins. [8:51] The working family tax cut bill, some of the peace negotiations the presidents did around the world, some of the domestic policy wins. [8:58] Even though you all might disagree, we're getting ready to come into a midterm that's going to be rough. [9:02] And I wish that this White House would lean into those wins, would sell those wins to the American people and make those known instead of focusing on a firing squad thing. [9:11] So this is one of the things I have to go back to and say, why is this the story when you have a president who, frankly, I think has been quite successful? [9:18] I think millions of Americans agree. [9:20] Let's galvanize those Americans, get them to the polls, get them excited about going and get involved in these midterms. [9:25] I'm not talking about a firing squad issue here. [9:28] I just, I don't know why this is a story. [9:29] Well, personally, Trump has been a fan of the death penalty publicly, at least since the 1980s when he called for it with the Central Park Five, as you know. [9:39] And they were exonerated. [9:40] Who were completely exonerated. [9:41] They were exonerated. [9:42] So another example of how this can work or not work. [9:46] Yeah, these types of tweets, I'll also say, are dangerous. [9:48] We shouldn't be even having a conversation about bringing back public hangings. [9:53] I think tweets like this are dangerous. [9:54] The one where the senator said, you know, he celebrated the idea that the Strait of Hormuz Navy ships were being destroyed. [10:01] All these types of tweets are dangerous and they're below the office that these gentlemen and ladies hold. [10:07] So this is not the right conversation we should be having. [10:09] You know where we've been hearing about public executions lately? [10:13] In Iran. [10:13] Yes. [10:14] Oh, yes. [10:15] Hangings, firing squads. [10:17] If that were to suddenly become part of American life, where do we end up? [10:25] I mean, I think that's a very good point. [10:27] I hadn't thought about it. [10:28] But, I mean, that's part of the reason that people want the Islamic Republic of Iran to go away and let the Iranian people and the Persian people actually have, you know, real freedom. [10:37] Because they hang people for fun in Iran. [10:40] They hang them off of cranes. [10:42] I mean, it's a part of their kind of despotic rule. [10:45] I think America should be going in the opposite direction from the Islamic Republic of Iran. [10:49] I agree with this. [10:50] And it's more than Trump just not saying something bad. [10:54] He needs to lead. [10:55] He should point out those types of distinctions of what makes this civilization more important and better. [11:01] He should point those out and have some gravitas and seriousness with it. [11:05] I'm telling you, in terms of independence, we have so many more people understanding why are people possibly dying in this war. [11:12] We need to know some really good reasons, not just obliterate people dropping minds. [11:16] But I think what you said about the macho-ness is right. [11:19] He can't, he gets so drawn into it and loses any of what the presidency is really about, which is about lifting the country up, lifting people up to higher ground, not dragging them down. [11:31] But he gets so, unfortunately, sucked into that. [11:34] Yeah. [11:34] Yeah. [11:34] Right. [11:35] Yeah. [11:36] Right. [11:36] Right. [11:36] Right.