Why Trump Is Always Caught in Crisis: Rothkopf — The Daily Beast Podcast

[0:00] This weekend story is going to get a lot of play because there were so many journalists there, [0:04] but it was actually meaningless. It won't change the subject. Next week when you and I get together [0:09] for this conversation again, what's going to happen? We'll be talking about Iran. We'll be [0:14] talking about Epstein. We'll be talking about Trump's corruption. We'll be talking about his [0:18] mismanagement of the government. We'll be talking about the next unexpected crisis that is caused [0:24] by the fact that he is a lone wolf whack job. And, you know, the momentary grace that he gets out of [0:32] Butler 2.0, the mini version, is just not going to last. David Rothkopf. Joanna Coles. Well, well, [0:44] well. Well, you've left the country and look what happened. I know. I was supposed to be at the dinner [0:51] and urgent matters called me back to the UK where I'm dealing with the family health issue. [0:57] But I have been like you have many times to that dinner. It used to be fun and glamorous and sexy. [1:07] And it was kind of the Oscars in DC, the mix of celebrities and politicians and everything felt [1:15] very glittering and sparkling and enormous fun. And I think we were all reflecting this year before the [1:21] dinner on how it now seemed hard-edged and much more aggressive. And then, of course, this happens, [1:29] which is, you know, clearly a terrible, terrible thing. [1:37] Well, it's a terrible thing and it contains other terrible things within it. It's kind of a matriarcha [1:43] doll and you open it. And every time you open it, something worse is inside of it, you know. And [1:48] on the surface, you have the attack that was targeting Trump administration officials or [1:55] Trump. We're not 100% sure who was being targeted. We have the hubbub. And, you know, [2:02] political violence is never a good thing. And I think we ought to talk a little bit why there has [2:08] been so much and why Trump is such a magnet for political violence. But, you know, we also had [2:14] this, you know, you talked about it, you know, and here in DC, they call it nerd prom, right? You [2:20] know, where all the nerds get together and they put on their tuxedos and they congratulate themselves [2:25] on, you know, controlling the world. But, you know, you had this kind of sanctimony, you know, [2:32] that every reporter in the room got on their cell phone and was like, okay, here we are in Fallujah [2:39] and bullets are flying everywhere. And I am sacrificing myself for the American people. [2:45] And of course, that's not what happened. And then on top of that, Trump immediately tried [2:52] to turn this into a photo op and he goes to the White House and he has a press conference [2:57] in his ill-fitting tuxedo. And he turns into the most insufferable version of Trump, which [3:06] is St. Donald the Maga Martyr. [3:09] I think you mean, as his wife would call him, David, unifier. He is unifier. He was calling [3:16] for unification. You're quite right, of course. And I want to direct people to your excellent [3:24] column on Substack about how actually the lone wolf here is not the guy Cole Allen. Trump's [3:34] own expression for him was the lone wolf. And of course, the lone wolf at the center [3:39] of this actually is Donald Trump, who's led America into war without consulting any allies [3:45] other than Israel and now finds himself stuck with a problem, which is called Hall News. [3:54] Yeah, well, yeah, exactly. In fact, another term that Trump used for Cole Allen is whack job. [4:00] He said all these people are whack jobs. And, you know, there is no question but that a [4:06] lone wolf whack job with a gun is dangerous. But let's be clear. A lone wolf whack job that [4:13] controls the world's most powerful military is much more dangerous. Fortunately, no one [4:20] was killed or seriously injured at this event at the White House Correspondents' Dinner. [4:26] But 5,000 people are dead in the Middle East, thousands more injured, over a million dislocated, [4:37] billions spent, billions of people suffering around the world from rising prices, inability [4:43] to get gas, soon inability to get food, because of something just as insane, more insane. [4:53] Cole Allen at least had a manifesto and a reason for doing what he was doing. Donald Trump didn't [4:58] have a reason. He didn't have an excuse. What he was doing was not just just as illegal. It was more [5:06] illegal. And I have to say, you know, when I was looking at all these reporters and they're like [5:11] talking about, oh my God, and this is disruption of Washington. And oh, here I am. And I almost spilled [5:18] salad dressing on my tuxedo. And I was thinking, yeah, but it's true, right? But what about the mothers [5:27] and fathers and fathers of the hundreds of school kids who were murdered in the first day of this [5:36] insane war? The reason Trump made it into a press conference, and I think it's really important to [5:44] remember this, is that on the morning of this event, he had his negotiators turn around. He gave up again [5:52] on the negotiations. Iran is going terribly. There's a good Daily Beast story right now on how Trump is [5:58] having a meeting of his national security team to try and figure out how to get out of this huge mess. [6:04] And so he was like, look over here, distraction, distraction, and trying to actually make the most [6:13] of this. And of course, then, I don't know if you, you know, followed all this insanity. Then he decided [6:20] that it was actually about his ballroom. And that what, you know, the message of having this attacker [6:27] was that he needs to have his big gilded fortress that he can hide in, and all presidential events [6:34] can be moved to that. And he's even had the White House lawyers go to the court and file a motion [6:41] yesterday saying, you know, blocking the building of the ballroom is putting the president's life at [6:50] risk as the events of this weekend demonstrate. And it's like, are we fucking kidding? Are, seriously? [6:59] This is what this is about, is building this gilded ballroom, which is an engine for corruption, and [7:05] God knows why. God knows why. I don't know why. Do you know why Trump is so obsessed with it? It can't just be ego. [7:13] Well, I'm sure he's obsessed. I'm sure his obsessions change, because I think the one thing [7:20] we know about Donald Trump is that there's no consistency to, to really anything he thinks [7:25] about. So I'm sure he wanted it at one point to make his physical mark on the White House so that [7:31] no one can ever forget that he was there. Similarly, with the arch that he's planning to build, so it [7:37] will disrupt the view of the Arlington Cemetery, which we know he thinks is full of suckers and losers, [7:44] because that's how he referred to those who've died in battle. I mean, how soon is it after events [7:53] like this to pick up one's suitcase of cynicism again? I mean, one wants to take a breath and see [8:01] if there's any good that can come out of this. I mean, of course, it's the White House correspondence [8:06] dinner, so it wouldn't be held in the White House anyway. It's not a White House event. It's the [8:12] correspondence event. It's supposed to celebrate the First Amendment freedom of expression, which [8:18] we know that this particular president has been resistant to. They've turfed reporters out of the [8:22] Pentagon, although that decision was reversed by a court. They've introduced all sorts of friends [8:28] of the president into the briefing room and kicked out people from the briefing room. You will remember [8:34] there was the whole debate about whether or not AP could be in the briefing room. It'd been there since [8:39] time immemorial. So I think we have to be fair that Donald Trump is no friend of the free press, [8:44] and there's no reason why they would want to hold the event at a White House ballroom in the future, [8:50] should this thing ever get built. And obviously, he's trying to take full advantage of it by [8:55] railroading it through the courts at the moment. I mean, the weird thing is that these events bring [9:02] out the showman in Donald Trump in a crisis. One remembers from Butler, Pennsylvania, when he got [9:08] up there with the ear sort of bleeding, and he was fight, fight, fight. And apparently at this one, [9:14] he was saying, wait a minute, I want to know what's going on. Don't leave me out. You know, [9:18] you think any other president or like J.D. Vance would rush off the stage immediately, [9:22] but he's trying to figure out the angle, I think, which is just a fascinating side of him. [9:28] And the press conference at the White House, you know, an hour, less than an hour after someone [9:35] has tried to take his life, I'm sure triggering other similar events, sort of brings out a sort [9:42] of weird kind of performance leadership in him, which I think people may find compelling. [9:51] Spring is a natural reset point. And if you've been putting off cleaning up the messier parts of [9:58] your business, now's the time. Streamlining communications will help you win. That's why [10:04] today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Q-U-O, the smarter way to run your business [10:10] communications. 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And in terms of your suitcase full of cynicism, it should have come out right at the [11:20] beginning. Because they immediately started to capitalize on this thing. And him having this [11:25] event at the White House was, as you say, performative and cynical. And of course, he had [11:31] the little group of trained reporters, mostly trained reporters, ask him questions like, well, [11:38] how can you be so inspiring in times of crisis like this? And do you compare yourself to Abraham [11:44] Lincoln? Are you one of our greatest presidents? Please tell me someone didn't say that. Please [11:49] tell me someone didn't say. No, it wasn't quite like that. But I know he referred to himself as [11:54] President Lincoln. Well, he did. But somebody was like, you know, how is it you deal with this? And [12:00] he then shrugged and sort of did his best John Wayne imitation. And then he was like, well, you know, [12:07] I've read about this stuff. I'm an expert. I invented assassination. And, you know, the only [12:13] people who there are, you know, assassination attempts over are the most consequential presidents. [12:19] Which, by the way, undoubtedly got a great reaction from the family of James Garfield and [12:24] William McKinley and Gerald Ford, who are completely inconsequential presidents. [12:28] I think he was thinking more in line of JFK, obviously, and Abraham Lincoln. That's who he [12:36] wants to be compared to, obviously. Well, he was thinking in line of that. Of course, [12:41] Abraham Lincoln was one of our greatest presidents. JFK was nowhere near one of our greatest presidents. [12:47] I could make a case that he was a pretty inconsequential president, but let's not get into [12:52] that, okay? The reality is that almost immediately, he tried to use it to turn the subject away from [12:59] Iran, to turn the subject away from Epstein, to turn the subject into what a saint he is. [13:04] He had one of those moments, like he had after Butler, Pennsylvania, where he said, [13:08] we must all come together as a nation, you know? And, you know, he was doing his best. [13:14] The most divisive presidents that we can think of. The most divisive presidents. [13:18] Beyond divisive, right? Beyond divisive. This guy, you know, on Sunday morning shows, [13:25] there were all these Republicans yesterday who were like, we have to get rid of violence in America. [13:29] And Dana Bash on CNN turned to Jamie Raskin and said, don't you feel bad for the tone? And it was like, [13:36] what? The Democrats are responsible for this tone. The author of the current violent mood in the [13:44] United States. The author of the division, the person who owns it, is Donald Trump. Remember, [13:51] what happened on Saturday evening at the Washington Hilton Hotel was one guy somehow getting close to [13:59] the president and then being captured before anything happened to the president. And the president and all [14:05] these Republicans decried it. And on January 6th, 2021, Donald Trump incited the riot that took place [14:15] on Capitol Hill, where people died. People were injured. The government of the United States. [14:21] Well, policemen died. Policemen died, right? Right. [14:22] I mean, the irony of thanking all the security forces when you're like, you literally pardoned [14:28] everybody who was at January the 6th, some of whom were involved in direct violence against the police [14:35] and the protectors of the Capitol. He put some of them in the administration. [14:41] You know, I mean, he has elevated violence into being a plus if it's for him. And he condemns violence [14:50] when it seems to be against him. And, you know, there's a lot of stuff. I mean, I think, you know, [14:59] I wondered, you know, as a human reaction, you look at some of the people that were rushed from the room [15:04] who work for him, who know that he's not a good guy, who understand that this is their closest shot [15:10] to power, who understand that in a normal Republican administration, they would not have a role. And I [15:16] wonder if they're thinking, oh, I'm not sure. They know he's not a good guy. We've talked before about [15:24] the fact that they all hate each other. They're all suspicious of each other. They're all paranoid. [15:28] And I wondered if any of them had a moment when they're like, you know what? This is not the guy [15:32] I want to die for. This is not the guy I want to take a bullet for. [15:36] I don't know. Maybe they did. I'm not 100 percent sure that people were really that fearful for their [15:44] lives. It was kind of interesting that they took J.D. Vance off the stage before [15:49] they took Trump off the stage. That was amazing, wasn't it? I mean, [15:51] they literally lifted him by his shoulders. And I was like, wait, the president's still there. [15:56] Maybe he has a better team. Maybe he has guards who are more on it. I mean, Trump then disseminated [16:04] that by saying, oh, you know, I told them, wait, wait, wait, I want to see. But actually, [16:09] the interview with Oz, the mentalist who was crouched under the dais with Trump, did not [16:16] suggest that at all. It said that they've both been pushed down there. [16:19] By the way, Oz, the mentalist, he needs to have his mentalist card taken away. [16:24] I know. That was very unfortunate that he didn't see that coming. Very unfortunate. [16:28] Yeah. It's like, whoops, whoops. I really see everything. No, you didn't see this coming. [16:33] That would have been amazing if that's what it was on the piece of paper that he'd unveiled to the [16:40] first lady, Caroline Levitt. Yes, yes. Right. And it says, there will be an active [16:46] shooting. Yeah, no, that would be good. Well, you know, Caroline Levitt, maybe Caroline Levitt [16:50] should take up a career as a mentalist. Because, you know, earlier in the evening, when she was [16:55] talking about Trump's plans to offer some really nasty comments about the press, which he kind of [17:03] indicated he was disappointed. He does anyway. Yeah, he does that anyway. [17:07] But Caroline Levitt said, shots will be fired. Yeah. [17:14] With regard to Trump's remarks, which of course is, you know, maybe that, you know, maybe she, [17:19] you know, saw something. But I have to say, one of the weird things about this, and I'd be interested [17:25] in your reaction, and I know the people who are listening or watching are interested in your reaction, [17:31] is how many comments do you think are in the various streams here at the Daily Beast of people [17:37] saying, was this a hoax? Was this a setup? Yeah. [17:43] And, you know, and I, you know, I mean, I don't, there's no evidence to suggest it was a setup. [17:48] But to go back to your point about how he responds to Butler and how he responds to this, [17:53] he responds to these things exactly as you would if it were a setup. Just as he responded to the [17:59] Russia stuff in 2016, he takes maximum advantage of these things and cynically, you know, squeezes [18:09] every juice out of the crisis orange that he possibly can. And that's why then people, you know, [18:17] and nobody trusts him. And so everybody's like, oh, no, this is a hoax. Now, of course, with the Butler [18:22] thing, you know, there's this weird thing where he's like, I'm shot, but I didn't go to a doctor. [18:27] There's no doctor's note. I'm wearing this thing in my ear. There's no blood. All these people at [18:32] the convention are wearing this thing on their ear. What is that all about? It all seemed weird. [18:38] And, you know, Trump's, you know, it's all about the ballroom. It seems weird. And that's why you've [18:45] got some perfectly good, smart, intelligent readers and listeners here at the Beast who are like, [18:52] like, is something fishy going on here? I'm not saying, go on. [19:00] Well, no, I was going to say that Donald Trump is such an odd character that almost nothing is [19:09] beyond the pale in terms of the possibilities around him. I mean, he's almost like a fictional [19:15] character. I mean, I happen to believe that, you know, Thomas Matthew Crooks, who shot him at Butler, [19:22] Pennsylvania, was, you know, was a, what was a lone wolf whack job, who had a list of people that he [19:30] wanted to shoot to try and get attention to himself. And he was shot dead. So I'm not sure what he would [19:35] have gotten out of it, other than a very short lived legacy. But it's impossible not to entertain the [19:46] conspiracies, even briefly, because of the nature of Donald Trump's presidency. That sounds like your [19:54] dog in the background is barking to agree he thinks it's a conspiracy, or perhaps it's a she dog. [20:01] It's a he. He's a conspiracy theorist, grizzly. I don't listen to him, but he is a constant presence. [20:08] No, I think there's a lot of people out there who, um, who, who believe that, uh, you know, [20:15] weird stuff happens around Trump. And you know why they believe it? Because weird stuff happens around [20:20] Trump. Donald Trump is, we can see it, the most corrupt president in U.S. history. That's not, [20:25] that's an objective fact. He's getting payoffs. His kids are getting payoffs. They're making billions of [20:31] dollars. You know, the reason that people believe in conspiracy theories around Donald Trump is that [20:36] Donald Trump is committing conspiracies actively, you know, there is all this corruption. We see it [20:42] in front of him and, you know, we can't unsee it. And, and, and he lies about everything. [20:50] And it was that during his first term, the Washington Post had a guy counting his lies [20:54] and it came out to like 36,000 lies. He's a pathological liar. And so if you have a guy and [21:00] he's doing background deals and he's lying about everything and he's been, you know, uh, found guilty [21:05] in courts of fraud, of course you believe everything that the guy is doing is a conspiracy. [21:12] And there's an interesting dimension of all this. So I don't know if you saw this, [21:15] but last night, Nora O'Donnell on 60 Minutes did an interview with Trump. And during the interview, [21:21] she read elements of the manifesto, of Kold's manifesto. And in the manifesto, it alleged, um, [21:28] that one of the things that got to him was the existence of, you know, of a rapist, a pedophile, [21:35] and a traitor. And Trump got outraged. She said, you're a disgrace. And then in a beautiful grace [21:42] doubt, I thought, Nora O'Donnell said, oh, do you think he meant you? But here's the point. [21:48] The point is Donald Trump is trying to wave this stuff away and we've all seen it. It's just like [21:54] the corruption. It's just like the lies. This is not the beginning of the story. This is year 11 of [21:59] this story. We know that a judge, um, Lewis Kaplan in the E. Jean Carroll case, when he was [22:08] summing up the case, said that, uh, the jury verdict in the case, uh, for a kind of sexual abuse [22:17] found that Trump raped Carol in the common modern understanding of the word, not in the narrow [22:26] definition of rape as defined by New York state law. But, but we can't unhear that when a judge [22:35] says that's the conclusion. We've seen the Epstein files. We know that people under oath have asserted [22:43] Trump did terrible things. We know that there's 20 plus women who have accused him of sexual abuse. [22:50] We know, you know, I, I, I personally found the comment about him being a traitor kind of resonant [22:57] because if I turn around here, uh, oh yeah, here's, here's a, here's a nice volume called traitor, [23:05] which is a book about people who betrayed the United States written by me. So, [23:11] uh, so, you know, the, the point is Trump like tries to waves this stuff away, but, um, we we've [23:23] seen it. And, and, and so at this point we don't trust him. And, uh, that's why when he gets into [23:32] this whole cynical mode, it's so damn nauseating. He speaks out against violence. He's the author of [23:39] violence. He speaks out against divisiveness and politics. Nobody has more been more divisive [23:44] than politics. He speaks out against journalists who speak the truth at him, but we know the truth. [23:50] And, and that's why this event that the event itself, I don't think is that important, uh, [23:56] in the long run and the history books, it won't be seen as an important event, but it sure does work [24:01] as a prison for so many of the subtext of this moment of the extraordinary guy who the whack job, [24:12] lone wolf president, who is himself the biggest criminal in any room he's in. Um, and we know it [24:21] and we can't unsee it. And, and, and that's, you know, that, that, that, that I think is the [24:28] takeaway from this weekend. And now of course, here you are in England. I don't know why you arrive [24:33] in England and the King leaves, but now you've got the, that is, is there a connection there? [24:42] So the King is coming to the States for four days on a four day trip. A lot of controversy around the [24:49] trip. A lot of people in England, uh, where I am at the moment saying he absolutely shouldn't go. [24:54] This is terrible. Trump has attacked the British prime minister. He's ridiculed the British Navy [25:00] as being essentially a sort of toys. Uh, he's told Keir Starmer, the Labour prime minister, [25:06] he's no Winston Churchill, which is true. And a lot of British people are saying he's no Winston Churchill. [25:12] Uh, so a lot of people are saying the King shouldn't go. He's being used as a stooge. [25:16] Well, he's being used as a stooge. And you know, um, Stephen Chung, the white house, [25:24] you know, uh, communications director would call him a cuck. [25:26] Well, wait a minute. He calls you a no name, nothing though. And he calls me a lying piece of [25:33] shit. No, I think I, I know, but I think I got elevated to cook. You're a great executive editor. [25:39] Hugh Docherty told me that Stephen Chung had elevated me from a no name to a cook, [25:45] which I felt I'm making some progress here. I, we should make, by the way, what we should come [25:51] back to the King, but we should make note of the fact that Hugh Docherty had the room next to Cole [26:01] in the Washington Hilton and actually wrote something about this, uh, for the Daily Beast. [26:07] I mean, you had somebody right in the middle of it. And he wrote about the fact that the security was [26:12] super lax, but nobody was closer to this story than the Daily Beast. [26:17] Yeah. I mean, an extraordinary moment as Hugh went upstairs. So he and David Gardner, [26:22] Farah Thomason, Nico Hines, and Sarah Yule Weiss. Uh, Nico is our global editor. Uh, David, [26:29] Sarah and Farah are based in DC for us. And Hugh, uh, runs the show, thank goodness. Uh, but they were all [26:37] in the room, uh, in the dining room when it happened in the ballroom. And then when Hugh tried to get [26:43] up, to go back up to his room on the 10th floor of the Washington Hilton, uh, he was held back by FBI [26:51] officers, uh, not actually Kash Patel. We can come on to Kash Patel in a minute. It was looking like he [26:57] was talking to someone on his phone, but nobody thinks there was anybody there. [26:59] The luckiest man in America who was, you know, on Saturday morning was about to be fired. [27:06] And by Saturday night, they couldn't fire him because he was in the middle of this, [27:09] but anyway, gone. Well, they'll fire him when they need another distraction, won't they? Uh, [27:14] but, but Hugh then discovered he couldn't get into his room because his room was literally [27:19] next to the, he had the neighboring room of the, um, of the would be assassin. And in fact, [27:26] Hugh was making suggestions to the FBI that he thought might be helpful to them. Like, you know, [27:32] would you like to know what time the cleaner came? I didn't see any of my neighbors in the room, [27:37] but, and they were like, Oh yeah, we should get the law. We should get the cleaning schedule. [27:42] And then it turned out that three hours after the guy had tried to, you know, shoot a security [27:50] officer, they suddenly had the bomb squad up there and you're like, well, probably should have been up [27:54] there a little earlier. I mean, I guess they get blasé at this event because there's always a [28:00] president going, well, for the most part, unless it's Trump won. And it's normally a very good [28:05] natured event. [28:08] It is. But I do think the funny story that Hugh told me was that he went to the FBI guy and said, [28:14] well, I was in the room next door. Do you want to talk to me? Do you, do you have any questions that [28:18] you want to ask me? I think I was like, Oh yeah, that might be a good idea. And Hugh gave him his card. [28:24] Yeah. Well, he wrote a very good piece about it. We should recommend that people read his piece [28:29] because it was an exclusive and yeah. And it came up right after the event. It was, it was extremely good. [28:36] And the fact that, you know, you had all these reporters there and there was all this good [28:40] coverage in the Daily Beast in real time, factual, great. It was great. But, you know, to get back to [28:46] the, the King coming because that, you know, we have to turn the page at some point. Uh, you know, [28:52] I think all this criticism of the King coming is exactly right because I do think the, you know, [28:58] MAGA would call him a cuck if the weren't for the fact that Donald Trump loves the King and he [29:04] loves the idea of Kings and he likes people who have crowns and would live in big palaces [29:09] and who can't actually say anything critical to him because the King can't actually do that. And [29:14] you know, the King, the reason I say that, you know, he would be described as a, as a, as a cuck [29:20] is he's being used. He's being used as a prop by Trump. He's a, you know, he's being used to make [29:27] Trump look statesmanlike in the middle of a failed war and a failing economy and American division [29:33] and falling American standing in the world and insulting England and insulting, uh, you know, [29:39] our allies around the world, you know, King Charles is going to come there and is going to go, [29:45] Oh yes. Oh, you're friends. We're friends. And I love your accent of him. Do that one more time. [29:53] Hello. Hello. Yeah. This is like, I'm going to do King, we could do King Charles meeting Melania [30:00] because you could then be Melania. It's very nice to meet you Melania. Good to see you again. [30:06] Your face never moves. Why is that? I wonder how she's feeling after Saturday, [30:11] because we know how furious she was after Butler, Pennsylvania, and also how she wouldn't let Baron [30:16] be a delegate in the RNC because she was so concerned for Baron's safety. So I'm sure her having [30:22] the proximity for Melania to Saturday's event means we'll see her even less of her. [30:30] Right. Yeah. But maybe her body double or whoever it is that gets sent to these events when she's [30:36] fake Melania, fake Melania. But I mean, I, I, I think that King Charles, assuming his health holds out, [30:46] and as we know, he has cancer, which is treatable, but not apparently curable. Um, assuming, [30:52] I'm sure that King Charles thinks he will outlive Trump and that actually Trump is a blip in the [30:57] relationship between Britain and America. It's very important for Britain to have good sound [31:02] relations with, with the US. And Trump has gone after everybody in Europe. It's not Britain. He hasn't [31:09] singled out Keir Starmer. He's gone after Emmanuel Macron. He's gone after Pedro Sanchez in Spain. He's [31:15] gone after Georgia Maloney. He thought he loved her in Italy. Now he's gone after, similarly, with the [31:21] chancellor in Germany. So this is, this is Trump flailing with everybody. And actually from the [31:29] British point of view, I think it's quite smart that the King comes. The King maintains relations, [31:34] soft power. It's above politics. Look, I, I, I don't agree. First of all, that the, that the King is [31:44] meaningless pawn in this whole thing. Secondly, does it help? I actually don't think he is a morning. I don't [31:51] think he is a meaningless pawn in all this, David Rothkopf. Now, now this may be because I'm sitting [31:56] with my feet firmly on British soil today. Uh, and normally my, my feet are on New York soil, but [32:02] I actually think that this for Britain, this is sort of a continuity and, and King Charles is extremely [32:10] sophisticated in terms of his relation. No matter what Donald Trump says, King Charles will be able [32:17] to rise above it and he won't rise to the bait. I mean, he does that wonderful thing when he looks [32:22] off in the middle distance and just kind of, as he did when Trump made his sort of remarks at Windsor [32:29] Castle. And I'm actually fascinated to know how is the White House going to compete with what happened [32:37] at Windsor Castle because you've been to state dinners at the White House. So have I, they take [32:42] place in a tent. It's not, it's not the equivalent. I don't know why I, you know, if this is, could be [32:50] a sort of lovely English thing about you and that you think that the King still matters because he [32:55] doesn't. And you know, I mean, what does the King do? He goes to like the opening of a frog crossing [33:02] at a small road in Staffordshire and he cuts a ribbon. You know, he, the Kings don't do anything [33:08] anymore. So they exist purely to, for symbolism. And Trump is using the symbolism to suggest [33:20] healthiness in a U S UK relationship that isn't healthy, to suggest normalcy in his behavior when it [33:30] is abnormal, to seek a kind of dispensation for the way he has abused Starmer, the way he has abused [33:41] the British Navy, the way he has battered the relationship by saying, see, everything's fine [33:47] here with the King. But the King is a sock puppet. The King, the King is a toy. He's something that, [33:54] you know, he doesn't create policy. He doesn't influence policy. And he's being [34:00] used, you know, when he's used as a symbol because people then turn out to a parade because he's [34:06] going by in a gilded coach. Great. That's good for tourism in England. But he's not actually being [34:12] used as a symbol to help the UK here. He's being used as a symbol to undermine the actual government [34:19] of the UK here. And that's not a good thing. But I'm sure that the King will have spoken to the [34:25] prime minister, or certainly they're the diplomats that run the relationship in as much as anybody [34:33] does with the UK and the US, especially after the battle with Peter Mandelson, the previous ambassador [34:41] to DC from the UK who got fired. And now the prime minister is in the middle of a terrible quagmire [34:47] over that. And it's unclear whether or not he survives it. But I think you're not giving the King quite [34:54] enough credit, actually. I understand that he may lend some of his prestige brand to Donald Trump in [35:03] this particular moment. But I think the King is looking to a longer relationship with America and [35:10] Donald Trump is a blip. And sometimes you have to suck it up. Look, I hope you're right. And I think [35:16] that that's, you know, a lovely sentiment. But I don't think that's how Donald Trump looks at it. [35:21] I think Donald Trump looks at it by saying, see, here is a King who thinks I am a King, who's treating [35:28] me like a King, who treated me like a King, who sees me as a statesman, who's not talking to me about [35:35] all this stuff that I hate talking about. Now, I have to say, one of the things that the King is [35:40] bringing over in his luggage, um, for which I'm sure there's all sorts of footmen carrying the luggage. [35:45] He's never touched a piece of luggage. But, um, one of the things that the King is bringing over [35:50] in his luggage is his brother and the Epstein scandal. And you talk about Mandelson and there [35:57] will be the King Charles will not get within 10 feet of a reporter, um, uh, who does not want to [36:06] ask him a question about Epstein. And there will be a hundred stories about Epstein because of the [36:12] Prince Andrew connection and because of the Mandelson connection that will follow this visit. [36:17] And it will once again prove that no matter what Donald Trump does [36:21] to try to change the subject, he can't, that Epstein's not going away. [36:28] Well, and, and King Charles can say, well, [36:31] I'm afraid I can't say anything about it because it's under review by the police, [36:35] which will show that Britain is taking the Epstein files more seriously than the US. [36:41] Yeah, but maybe, but yes. And that his brother is no longer a prince and everybody will think of [36:50] the image of his brother in the backseat of the car that was snapped by that photographer, [36:54] where he looks like he has just, you know, seen something horrible and he's in complete mental [37:00] disorder. And they'll know that, you know, the reason Peter Mandelson was record recommended for this [37:06] job originally started with Prince Andrew. They'll know that this is all tied into Epstein at some [37:12] level. And so, you know, if Donald Trump thinks it's going to change the subject, it's not. Just [37:17] like if Donald Trump thinks holding a press conference in a tuxedo on a Saturday night is going to change [37:23] the subject from Iran when this war is raging and when the world doesn't know whether the price of [37:28] oil is going up or down, he's wrong. It's not going to make all of this go away. And, you know, [37:36] this story, I think this weekend story is going to get a lot of play because there were so many [37:41] journalists there for whom they will, you know, for whom this was a big event and they can talk [37:46] about it in a first person sense. But it was actually meaningless. It won't change the subject. [37:51] And tomorrow or next week, when you and I get together for this conversation again, what's going [37:56] to happen? We'll be talking about Iran. We'll be talking about Epstein. We'll be talking about Trump's [38:01] corruption. We'll be talking about his mismanagement of the government. We'll be talking about the next [38:06] unexpected crisis that is caused by the fact that he is a lone wolf whack job. And, you know, [38:14] the momentary grace that he gets out of, you know, Butler 2.0, the mini version, is just not going to last. [38:22] So we had a piece on the beast that said people are calling for the head of Susie Wiles, that the [38:29] Secret Service report to Susie Wiles and that this is ultimately her responsibility. What do we think [38:36] of that? It seems very hard to fire someone when they're undergoing treatment for cancer. [38:42] It does indeed. I saw that piece. I was quite interested in that piece. I had not heard [38:50] those kind of rumors. The rumors I hear are Kash Patel is next or Tulsi Gabbard has been given her [38:55] marching orders, things you've also covered. But I think, you know, there are other people I would [39:00] expect to leave soon. And blaming Susie Wiles for, you know, you know, the mistakes made by the [39:08] Secret Service, such as those in Butler, when Trump wasn't the president and she wasn't responsible for [39:16] the Secret Service, are also, you know, it's also kind of far-fetched to me. I do think we should [39:22] remember something corollary to this, though. The Secret Service budget has been cut by Elon Musk. [39:30] The number of Secret Service agents has been reduced, not just by Elon Musk, because a bunch of them [39:36] were forced out who did not sort of see the world on January 6th the same way that Trump did. [39:43] The people who Trump has elevated within the Secret Service are people who, and some of them he's [39:50] elevated out of the Secret Service and into his inner circle, are people who actually have [39:56] participated in the cover-up of January 6th. Remember that there were all these Secret Service [40:04] text messages that took place on January 6th and they all disappeared? So Trump's Secret Service [40:11] has been under a cloud since day one. His relationships with certain people in it have been [40:17] under a cloud. He has undercut the Secret Service with budgeting and with other kinds of [40:23] Elon things. And so it's really hard to say that they would blame Susie Wiles, with one exception, [40:30] which I think you mentioned to me in some text exchange we had, which is she's a woman, [40:34] and he seems to like firing women. [40:36] Well, the first three people to be fired from his cabinet were women. [40:41] So what happens to Kash Patel here, do we think? I mean, he's now launched his own $250 million lawsuit [40:49] against the Atlantic, who ran a piece last week saying that he allegedly was drunk on duty. And [40:57] apparently since he's filed his suit, more people have come forward from the FBI to say that they [41:04] will corroborate the piece in the Atlantic, saying that there are deep concerns about his behavior [41:11] on the job. [41:12] Josh Patel is a dead man walking. He's out of the job. Whether he gets fired this week or next week or in [41:23] a month, it's unclear. Trump does not like these kind of stories. And Trump knows full well that [41:30] the Atlantic, which is well-funded, has batteries of lawyers, would not, under any circumstances, [41:37] have run this story if they couldn't back it up. And you know Kash Patel does not want to get into a [41:44] court battle, discovery, testimony under oath about all the instances in his life in which people have [41:54] questioned his judgment. And so it's just, you know, he has an ugly blip. You know, the first [42:03] person to speak following the shooting on Saturday night or the events on Saturday night was Todd Blanche, [42:11] the Attorney General. Kash, you know, was given a bit of a mini sound bite in there, but he was kind of [42:18] on and off the stage pretty quickly. And so I would expect he will go soon. I will expect that, [42:26] you know, some other Trump loyalist will be given that kind of job. We should remember that his deputy [42:34] quit months ago, that putting Kash Patel in charge of... Dan Boncino. [42:40] Right. Putting Kash Patel in charge of the FBI has been a fiasco. And as we've talked about, [42:49] the people I know in the FBI are demoralized. They're angry. They think he's a dangerous man. [42:56] And the longer Kash Patel is in this job, the more leaks there will be. Because, you know, [43:05] and this is something we've talked about in the past, a lot of the guardrails in Washington have failed. [43:11] Mm-hmm. The congressional oversight, the Supreme Court. Trump's gotten rid of, you know, people in [43:19] the government who could be a problem. He's gotten rid of inspectors general. But there's one guardrail [43:26] that is impenetrable. And that is people in the government leaking to the press. And we have seen [43:35] it again and again and again. We had people in the military saying just a week ago to the Wall Street [43:43] Journal. That Trump was not allowed in the room, the command center, during the rescue of this Air [43:52] Force officer who was down behind enemy lines in Iran. You know, most people think, well, that's a [44:00] horrible story. You know, that doesn't reflect well on Trump. But what they don't think is where did it [44:07] come from? And this is the power of Washington. Every single person in Washington knows a journalist. [44:16] Every single person in Washington knows that they can make a call. And so every single person [44:21] in Washington, weirdly, the high and the low, and this is where some of the stories about the deep [44:26] state come out, they all have power. They all have cell phones. They all have recordings. They all can [44:35] undermine their boss. And I've seen it. When I was in the government, I saw it. I remember I had a [44:40] colleague who made a trip. And he made people on the trip stay up late at night working. And he was [44:46] really angering all of them. And the next thing you know, there was a story in the Washington Post about [44:52] what kind of cars he was having drive him around in Singapore. And it was like, wait, what's that? But [44:58] it was some fifth level person at an embassy who knew that they could call the Washington Post and leak [45:03] this story and make this guy's life a living hell. And so that's what's in Kash Patel's future. [45:10] Trump knows it. Susie Wiles knows it. And that's why Kash Patel is in a great position to be the first [45:19] guy who gets fired this time around. Well, interesting analysis. So this is a huge distraction [45:27] from what the real issues are. The war in Iran, the economy, Epstein, as you said earlier, ICE, [45:35] Mark Wayne Mullin. Don't forget RFK Jr. and our war on science. There are a lot of very, very serious [45:44] issues going on here. But for MAGA, for Republicans, the most serious issue is that Trump is in the worst [45:53] place he's been in the polls this term. He's below in many rankings where he was last term. He's at [45:59] some historic lows in terms of his rankings. And what every poll suggests is that he will lose the [46:06] House and that he may lose the Senate. And frankly, we're just almost six months away from the election. [46:14] And, you know, all other stories in Washington get pushed into the background when you are that close to [46:23] what is very likely to be a wave election and a historic shift in who's in power in Washington. [46:30] And as we've talked about it, the Democrats, you know, they're not taking anything for granted, [46:35] nor should they. But they're already planning, you know, what kind of investigations will we run into [46:39] Trump? And should we impeach Trump or should we not impeach Trump and all that stuff? Because they [46:45] know that starts. That's it's just months away before that could happen. And of course, you know, [46:52] before that we could have battles over who can vote and who isn't voting and rigging the elections [46:58] and so forth. But that story is occupying a huge percentage of the bandwidth of everybody in and [47:08] around Trump right now. Oh, David Rothkoff, I was hoping that we would, well, I guess that is a hopeful [47:14] note, actually, isn't it? Democracy running its lumpy course and possibly a change of Congress and [47:25] Senate. That is the way it's supposed to go. I think it is. People vote someone in, they decide [47:31] they don't like them, they vote someone else in. As we've said before, and picking up on the metaphor [47:38] with regard to Kash Patel, Donald Trump politically is a dead man walker. Frankly, I don't think he looks so [47:45] good either. I think he looked exhausted and, you know, just barely able to keep himself together. [47:53] And he fell down, bringing himself off the stage during this whole thing. I think he's a mess [47:58] physically. But quite apart from that, the Trump era, MAGA era is coming to a close. It is a dead [48:09] certainty. And I don't know, you know, Trump's not ready for it. MAGA's not ready for it. The Republicans [48:15] don't have anybody to pick up and lead next. The Democrats don't really have anybody clearly to [48:20] pick up and lead next. And I think that's going to be the next big story, is what do we do now that [48:28] Trump is over? MAGA's not ready for it. What I would like is for Laura Loomer to swivel her not [48:34] inconsiderable attentions onto why was J.D. Vance led off the stage before the president? [48:41] MAGA. That, to me, needs to be answered. And I would like Laura, if you're listening, [48:47] or anybody out there listening who could convey this to Laura Loomer, Laura Loomer, [48:52] when she's focused on something, can get, as they say, shit done. I would like to know why J.D. Vance [48:58] was led off the stage before Donald Trump. And I bet Donald Trump would like to know that too. [49:04] MAGA. Yeah, but Laura Loomer is kind of one of Trump's work wives. And, you know, she does stuff [49:10] for him in this sphere. And maybe she will. But, you know, I think J.D. Vance is also a story that is [49:16] over. J.D. Vance makes, you know, Mike Pence look like a combination of Daniel Webster and George [49:23] Washington. He is a loser of the first order. And everybody knows it, which is why Trump and everybody [49:30] else is like, hey, Marco doesn't look so bad to me. Although, I love that. I saw a bunch of things [49:36] about that over the weekend too. Like, Marco's going to be the guy. And it's like, oh yeah? [49:40] The Secretary of State in charge of the Iran War? In charge of blowing up NATO? In charge of [49:48] ending USAID and killing 14 million people? That guy is going to be the Republican candidate? [49:55] Bring it on. Bring it on. [49:58] MAGA. And you mentioned Mike Pence in your column, which I really urge everybody to read because it [50:04] was so profound about who is the lone wolf whack job here. But of course, Mike Pence, who was slavishly [50:12] loyal for three years and 364 days until they got to the point where literally they were chanting, [50:22] hang Mike Pence, hang Mike Pence. That was what he got for being loyal to Trump. There is no such [50:29] thing as returned loyalty there. [50:31] Right. And Trump, the man who condemns political violence, never really condemned that. He said, [50:38] can you blame them? [50:39] Which is why Mother Pence didn't shake his hand at Jimmy Carter's funeral, refused to engage with them. [50:46] Well, I'd say that's exactly right. But, you know, I think if you boil it all down, [50:54] you know, this whole conversation today, the headline is Donald Trump is the real lone wolf whack job. [51:03] David Rothkopf, as always, you've got such insight and you bring a lot of experience to [51:11] these conversations, having lived in Washington as long as you have. And I'm very sorry that we [51:16] didn't get to have the lunch that we had planned on Sunday because I had to rush away. But I'm looking [51:23] forward to having you when I get back to the States. [51:25] Well, I hope all your business at home is taken care of as well as possible and that your family [51:32] and the medical emergency is dealt with as well as possible. And that you come home soon and then [51:37] we get you down to Washington and we will treat you well. And, you know, one of these days you're [51:42] going to have to start doing some of these, you know, Daily Beast live events so people can see you [51:48] and talk to you and ask you questions, because I think they would love that. [51:51] Well, I would love to do that. Let me get through the initial phase here. But I think, too, that Trump [52:00] is going to re — or they're going to reschedule the White House Correspondents' Dinner somewhere, [52:05] though goodness knows where they're going to hold it. [52:07] I sure hope they don't. I doubt that's going to happen. First of all, nobody would go. [52:11] Well, I think he's got a whole speech that he wants to use to target the press, [52:15] which he was disappointed not to be able to use. So, who knows? [52:18] Well, he's going to have to find another place to do it. That event is not happening again. [52:24] Well, at least perhaps not at the Washington Hilton. David, great to see you and more to come. We'll be [52:33] back next Monday, God willing. And I will look forward to seeing what happens in the seven days between now [52:39] and then. Who knows? [52:41] Safe travels and best wishes to your family. [52:43] Thank you. [52:49] So, the good news is we have so many Bee Beast tier members now. There are too many names to read out. [52:55] And we really appreciate your support. Thanks to our production team, Devin Rogerino, [53:01] Ryan Murray, Rachel Passer, Heather Passaro, Neil Rosenhaus.