Why Brooke Nevils, Matt Lauer's original accuser, says 'Me Too' fell short

[0:00] How long did it take you to come to an understanding that what you went through was assault, that you were a victim? [0:08] We have this trope that victims, you know, claim rape to avoid accountability. [0:14] But in order to come forward with an allegation, you are essentially taking accountability for every mistake you've ever made in your life, and you're putting a target on your back. [0:27] And in my situation, I mean, I knew what would happen if, you know, Matt Lauer at that point at NBC could literally do no wrong. [0:41] So it was unthinkable to imagine that it could be anything other than a misunderstanding. [0:48] And it took me years because what I felt was, why did I become a completely different person? [0:57] Why am I doing these things that I don't even understand why I'm doing? [1:02] This was someone I had idolized and trusted since I was a little girl. [1:09] I'd been watching him since, you know, before school, since I was in elementary school. [1:16] And he was seen as the Today Show. [1:21] He was old enough to be my father. [1:23] My brain almost just could not compute the idea that he could do anything wrong. [1:33] So in a situation where one person can do no wrong, and you are the person that is supposed to keep that person happy, [1:45] the only conclusion you can reach is that it has to be your fault. [1:48] It must have been something I did, something I said. [1:51] Why did I put myself in that position? [1:53] When you're in a position of power over someone, and you see someone who's young enough to be your daughter, [1:59] who is drunk and alone in a foreign country, the normal response is to want to protect them, to want to help them. [2:09] It's not to try to take advantage of them. [2:12] But because I was so steeped in this culture, it took me years to see that. [2:19] You said it took you six years to write this book. [2:22] Tell us about that journey. [2:23] I wanted to write the book because I had questions, and I wanted answers. [2:29] And in the aftermath of Me Too, if you didn't understand why consent was so complicated, [2:39] why it was harder than if yes means yes and no means no, [2:42] it felt like you couldn't even say that out loud because you would be seen as part of the problem. [2:47] You'd get canceled. [2:48] And I was this person who'd made this incredibly consequential sexual harassment complaint, [2:53] and I didn't understand it. [2:56] You talk about consent, and I think that is such a key part of your book. [3:00] And both you and Matt Lauer, you say what happened, right, in terms of there were sexual relations on numerous occasions. [3:09] In 2019, Lauer released a lengthy open letter. [3:14] This was his first big response, and he says, [3:17] The story Brooke tells is filled with false details intended only to create the impression this was an abusive encounter. [3:24] Nothing could be further from the truth. [3:26] There was absolutely nothing aggressive about that encounter. [3:28] Brooke did not do or say anything to object. [3:31] She certainly did not cry. [3:33] She was a fully enthusiastic and willing partner. [3:35] At no time did she behave in a way that made it appear she wasn't capable of consent. [3:42] She seemed to know exactly what she wanted to do. [3:44] The only concern she expressed was that someone might see her leaving my room. [3:49] She embraced me at the door as she left. [3:53] How do you respond to that? [3:54] Is that easy for me to hear? [3:57] No. [4:00] It's devastating. [4:01] It makes me feel ashamed. [4:04] But at the same time, I listened to that, and I can't believe I was ever alone in a room with that person. [4:19] When you are in a position, when you are with a subordinate, that you have personally witnessed drink for hours, [4:30] you have paid for the drinks, when that person, as I did in my case, [4:37] I wrote an email making jokes about how I was so drunk I couldn't open my hotel room door. [4:43] It's hard to fathom how you could argue that you're completely unaware that someone's ability to consent might be compromised. [4:59] When you are in a position of power over a subordinate, [5:03] and you know that that subordinate's job is essentially to do whatever they have to do to keep you happy, [5:12] that they really can't ignore your emails, [5:15] that they really can't even make you mad. [5:19] You are responsible for making sure that you're not taking advantage of them. [5:25] And when I hear that, when I hear anyone in a situation where they are sexually propositioning a subordinate [5:36] that they know has been drinking for hours, that they've witnessed drink for hours, [5:43] it just tells me they're not all that concerned about consent in the first place. [5:49] Who do you envision as the readers of your book? [5:52] Like, who were you writing for? [5:54] I remember what it felt like to read other women talking about what happened to them, [6:00] to hear them saying things that I thought I had to have been the only one to have felt that way, [6:08] to have been in that position, to have reacted that way. [6:11] And that moment where you realize you're not alone, that changes everything. [6:16] So obviously, I want to be able to do that for other women. [6:20] I've been very lucky to have the opportunity to do this. [6:24] But it's also, I know what it feels like not to understand this stuff. [6:29] Because you really tackle the gray area head on when it comes to sexual assault in this book. [6:36] I remember being in newsrooms and, you know, hearing these stories. [6:41] And we would cherry pick the black and white ones, [6:43] the ones where it was a likable victim that we thought would be easy to understand [6:49] that didn't get into these messy, gray areas. [6:52] But the reality is the gray area is the norm. [6:55] And until we understand that, victims who react in perfectly normal ways [7:02] are going to continue to feel the way I did, which was alone. [7:06] And, like, they're losing their mind. [7:08] You know, you think, what happened to me can't possibly be a sexual assault [7:14] because I didn't react the way a real rape victim did. [7:18] Well, yes, you did. [7:20] We just have the wrong ideas about how victims react. [7:24] Tell us more about that in terms of the expectations societally [7:28] of how a victim should act versus the reality. [7:31] Our standards for victims in the aftermath of a sexual assault [7:36] are impossibly high. [7:40] We expect them to immediately recognize what happened as a sexual assault [7:45] when we know that's rarely what happens. [7:48] These situations are confusing. [7:50] They're devastating. [7:51] And one of the most common reactions to it is denial. [7:54] We expect them to immediately report what happened [7:58] and to tell their stories consistently [8:01] when, in fact, nobody tells the same story the same way every single time. [8:07] It takes time to understand what happens to you to come to terms with it. [8:12] And when we see victims doing that, we accuse them of being inconsistent. [8:18] If they are, you know, if they do tell the story the same way every time, [8:23] then we say, oh, you're rehearsed. [8:25] It is really an almost impossible position for victims in the aftermath of assault. [8:31] And it's important to recognize that a lot of the ways victims react, [8:36] whether it's freezing, whether it's placating their abuser [8:40] just to try and not make a bad situation worse, [8:43] those are very normal reactions to trauma. [8:46] Let's talk a little bit more about the sense of control [8:49] and trying to regain that after something like what you went through. [8:52] When it's someone you know that sexually assaulted you, [8:55] someone with power over you, it's a lot more complicated than that. [9:00] You're going to try and do whatever you can do [9:03] to make it as though it never happened [9:06] because that's what you need to continue living your life. [9:11] If you need to keep your job, [9:14] if you need to keep someone in your family safe, [9:18] you're going to do whatever you have to do [9:20] to not make this situation worse. [9:22] So if it's someone you work with, [9:25] you're going to try and smooth it over. [9:28] You're going to try and essentially keep them happy. [9:32] And we see that again and again in these situations with power imbalances. [9:38] And I know how hard that can be to understand [9:41] because we're comparing it against, you know, [9:43] if a stranger sexually assaults you in an alley, [9:45] obviously you're not going to chase them down and invite them for coffee. [9:48] But if it's your boss, you can't ghost your boss. [9:52] You can't just never show up at work again. [9:55] You have to be able to continue living your life. [9:58] And you get put in this impossible situation [10:00] where you are placating your own abuser. [10:04] And you describe Lauer in your book as the superstar harasser, [10:09] which further complicated the dynamic of you coming forward. [10:13] What is the superstar harasser? [10:15] While I was researching this book, [10:18] I interviewed a forensic psychologist [10:20] who casually mentioned this EEOC report that I then looked up. [10:26] And it describes these superstar harassers. [10:31] It's a committee from the EEOC [10:34] specifically warning employers in 2016 [10:37] of these rainmakers [10:41] that are perceived to be so valuable to a company [10:46] that they can do no wrong. [10:48] Instead of having people to hold them accountable, [10:51] they have groups of people to keep them happy. [10:55] And because they have so much power, [10:59] they feel as though the rules don't apply to them. [11:01] And they see people with less power [11:04] as essentially disposable. [11:07] And when you think about it, [11:09] you know, if you are a nurse in an operating room [11:12] and the surgeon is someone [11:14] who's the only person [11:15] that can do this life-saving operation [11:18] and, you know, they sexually harass you, [11:22] are you going to be the person [11:23] that goes forward and makes the complaint [11:24] that means they can't save someone's life that day? [11:28] No, of course you're not. [11:29] And that's how you get these cultures of open secrets [11:34] where everyone knows about this behavior [11:36] but feels like they can't about it. [11:40] So I read this report [11:42] and it described almost to a T [11:45] what had been happening to me, [11:48] what was happening all across the Me Too movement. [11:52] You know, we saw it everywhere. [11:53] And even now we still see it. [11:54] We're still seeing it today. [11:56] And you write in your book, quote, [11:58] so many of our deepest assumptions [12:00] about what a real victim should look like [12:02] and how they should behave remain firmly entrenched. [12:05] As a result, the process of coming forward [12:08] is still, broadly speaking, [12:10] nightmarishly complicated [12:12] and often self-defeating. [12:15] So help us better understand what you mean by that, [12:18] that societal expectation of a real victim [12:20] and why you in the aftermath, [12:24] in the immediate aftermath, didn't come forward. [12:27] My job was to smooth things over for the talent. [12:31] So I thought, this I know how to do. [12:34] I can smooth this over. [12:38] And so I went back. [12:40] And when I went back, [12:41] the first thing that happened was [12:43] he suggested I come meet him in his apartment. [12:46] And when you're sitting in the dressing room [12:49] of the anchor of the Today Show in Studio 1A, [12:52] are you really in a position to say no? [12:55] Of course you're not. [12:57] And that just happened again and again. [13:02] And the most confusing part of it [13:04] was that every single time I thought I was fixing it, [13:09] I was taking back control. [13:10] But really what I was doing [13:11] was implicating myself in my own abuse. [13:15] And then by the time I understood that I was trapped, [13:20] I knew I was going to be blamed for all of it. [13:24] And I blamed myself. [13:26] Do you still blame yourself? [13:27] I was a journalist [13:29] who had covered stories of sexual harassment, [13:35] high-profile stories of sexual harassment and assault. [13:40] If I had been better at my job, [13:43] if I had been a better journalist, [13:44] I might have been able to make better choices. [13:49] And I blame myself for that. [13:51] And I will always blame myself for that. [13:54] But to blame yourself [13:55] in the aftermath of one of these situations [13:58] is really just to blame yourself for being a human being. [14:02] Everyone is vulnerable at some point in their lives. [14:07] And most of the time, [14:10] no one comes along [14:11] and takes advantage of your vulnerability. [14:14] That's just not what happened to me. [14:17] And, you know, later, [14:19] as you come to terms with what happened, [14:23] you realize that all of those things that you said [14:27] as you tried to work through it, [14:29] whether you said them to your friend, [14:31] to your therapist, [14:33] to a member of the clergy, [14:35] a text message you wrote, [14:38] even your own journal, [14:39] all that can be subpoenaed. [14:42] So your normal human reaction [14:44] to an incredibly devastating, [14:47] confusing situation [14:49] gets used against you. [14:52] And it feels as though [14:54] it's just not safe to be human. [14:57] That's part of why you feel so alone [15:00] in the aftermath of these situations. [15:04] Because when you do decide, [15:06] maybe I should go forward, [15:07] maybe I should tell someone, [15:09] you've already essentially testified against yourself. [15:14] You've given your abuser reasonable doubt. [15:19] And it's that way [15:21] because we don't understand [15:24] how people respond in these situations. [15:27] We have these impossible expectations. [15:30] I woke up in Sochi [15:33] where everybody around me [15:35] was an NBC employee. [15:37] Who could I possibly talk to [15:39] about what happened [15:41] when every single one of us [15:43] was relying on Matt Lauer [15:47] and the Today Show [15:48] to keep the news division afloat? [15:50] Every single one of us [15:52] is steeped in this culture [15:54] of believing he could do no wrong. [15:57] And, you know, [15:59] as I was even driving home [16:01] from the airport, [16:03] someone I worked with called, [16:04] you know, [16:05] how was the trip? [16:05] It was great. [16:10] I'd already, [16:11] I'd already essentially [16:12] given a witness against myself. [16:18] And then when you go forward [16:20] and you try [16:21] to hold the other person accountable, [16:25] you get blamed [16:26] for a perfectly human reaction. [16:30] And you argue [16:33] the power imbalance with that, [16:35] if you're in a situation [16:35] where you're of a high stature [16:38] and you're with a subordinate, [16:41] that even if the woman doesn't say no, [16:46] that's not consent. [16:48] If you're risking [16:49] everything you've ever worked for [16:51] by potentially rejecting [16:53] or alienating this person, [16:55] you're in a position [16:56] where you can't consent. [16:59] Consent takes place between equals. [17:02] It has to be freely given. [17:04] And that's not what's happening. [17:06] in these situations. [17:07] And if you are the person in power, [17:10] you know that. [17:13] Another thing you hear, [17:16] I guess, [17:17] you know, [17:18] the myths around being a victim [17:20] or what society thinks is, [17:23] oh, well, [17:24] the woman regrets it. [17:26] So now she's saying she was raped [17:27] because she cheated on a loved one. [17:30] And so she's calling it rape, [17:32] even though it wasn't rape. [17:34] One of the ways that [17:35] Me Too was not entirely successful [17:38] is that it created [17:41] an environment [17:42] where it felt like [17:44] you couldn't ask questions. [17:45] It felt like you couldn't ask [17:46] why victims go back, [17:48] why they wait so long to report. [17:50] We called out [17:52] these powerful abusers, [17:54] but then we didn't explain [17:56] why that behavior [17:58] was so problematic. [18:00] And as a result of that, [18:01] I think a lot of the reforms [18:02] we made felt, frankly, [18:04] arbitrary and stupid [18:05] to a lot of people, [18:06] which sort of invited [18:07] the backlash [18:08] that we're seeing now. [18:09] And you make clear [18:11] that not every man's a predator. [18:13] There have been [18:14] false allegations made, [18:16] which, of course, [18:16] hurts the movement [18:18] altogether, right? [18:19] I think that this [18:21] believe all women [18:24] all the time ethos [18:26] that came out of Me Too, [18:27] while well-intentioned, [18:29] was actually misguided. [18:32] It shouldn't be [18:33] believe all women [18:34] all the time. [18:35] It should be [18:35] stop disbelieving victims [18:37] for the wrong reasons. [18:41] We see a lot [18:43] of normal victim behaviors [18:45] as red flags. [18:47] That means that we interpret [18:49] as, oh, there's something [18:50] fishy here. [18:52] This can't be true, [18:53] when really we know [18:54] those are textbook behaviors. [18:57] But what happens is [18:59] if you automatically [19:00] disbelieve these stories, [19:02] no one's ever gonna [19:03] go to the police. [19:05] So then how do you determine [19:06] if a sexual assault [19:08] did take place [19:09] since there's typically [19:12] no camera in the room [19:14] to record what happened? [19:18] I wish I had [19:19] a better answer for you. [19:22] The reality is [19:23] the system is stacked [19:26] against victims. [19:28] And one of the questions [19:30] I asked myself [19:31] while writing this book [19:33] was how can victims [19:36] actually be believed? [19:37] Because when you go down [19:40] the dynamics of a [19:44] he-said-she-said case [19:45] or a typical sexual assault [19:47] allegation from the perspective [19:49] of an investigator, [19:50] it's devastating. [19:53] You know, you are rarely [19:56] going to have [19:57] physical evidence. [19:59] There's no chain of custody [20:00] for human memory. [20:02] And we know that [20:03] human memory [20:04] is not perfectly reliable. [20:07] You know, we know you're essentially [20:12] relying on two unreliable witnesses [20:16] and then you're putting a jury [20:17] in a situation [20:18] where they have to figure out [20:20] what may be unknowable. [20:23] And the good news [20:26] is that the behavior [20:28] of sex offenders [20:30] and victims of sex crimes [20:32] generally conform [20:34] to pretty well-established behaviors. [20:36] And, you know, [20:38] forensic psychologists [20:39] and experienced investigators, [20:42] when they know [20:43] what they're doing, [20:44] they can generally [20:45] get to the truth. [20:47] And alcohol, [20:49] alcohol is kind of [20:53] a perfect storm. [20:55] You know, [20:55] we have this notion [20:56] of beer goggles [20:57] that makes everyone [20:58] look attractive. [20:59] But studies have shown [21:00] what alcohol actually does [21:01] is make everyone around you [21:03] seem more willing [21:04] to have sex with you. [21:05] And it lowers [21:08] your inhibitions. [21:09] It lowers your ability [21:10] essentially to recognize risk [21:12] and recognize vulnerability. [21:15] So you get [21:16] in these situations [21:17] where you have [21:18] one person [21:19] who overvalues [21:23] how interested someone is [21:24] in having sex [21:25] and another person [21:27] who can't recognize [21:29] how vulnerable they are [21:31] and is losing the ability [21:34] to defend themselves, [21:37] to remember [21:37] what is happening to them. [21:39] Because alcohol [21:40] makes you forget. [21:42] Like, we all know that [21:42] when you drink, [21:43] you start to lose memory [21:45] and our number one defense [21:46] against bad things [21:47] happening to us [21:48] is the ability [21:49] to hold someone [21:50] accountable for it. [21:52] So part of what makes [21:53] sexual assault so traumatic [21:55] is that if you know [21:56] you've been drinking [21:57] and you know that [21:59] this bad thing [21:59] is happening to you, [22:01] you know that you're [22:02] not going to be believed, [22:03] which makes it terrifying [22:06] and traumatic. [22:08] In your journey [22:09] trying to get to the truth, [22:10] you ended up in a psych ward. [22:11] I did. [22:14] I did. [22:16] I, after I made [22:21] my complaint, [22:23] someone asked me, [22:26] you know, [22:27] how I was doing [22:27] with the trauma [22:29] of what had happened to me. [22:31] And I was just like, [22:34] I don't know what you're talking, [22:34] I have plenty of problems, [22:36] but trauma isn't one of them. [22:38] I'm fine. [22:40] And saying you're fine [22:42] is avoidance. [22:44] That's a classic symptom [22:46] of PTSD [22:47] that I didn't recognize. [22:48] And while I was fine, [22:51] I mean, [22:51] I was carrying a flask [22:53] of bourbon in my bag [22:55] to get through the day. [22:56] I was drinking at work. [22:58] I was taking [23:02] sleeping pills to sleep. [23:04] I look back at that now [23:06] and I can see very clearly [23:07] that is a masking behavior. [23:10] That's a pretty glaring [23:13] indication that I was not fine. [23:16] It was not until [23:20] nine months later [23:22] when I had been outed [23:25] by a tabloid, [23:26] I took a leave of absence [23:27] from my job [23:28] that had essentially [23:32] been my entire identity. [23:34] You know, [23:34] as long as I was [23:35] a producer at NBC, [23:37] then I had to have been okay [23:38] because I was doing [23:39] this incredibly important, [23:41] hard job that I loved. [23:44] And all of a sudden, [23:47] I wasn't fine anymore. [23:48] I didn't want to live anymore. [23:50] I couldn't live with myself anymore. [23:54] I didn't have a structure [23:57] to keep pretending [24:00] I was fine. [24:01] And I became [24:02] really self-destructive. [24:05] I was doing anything [24:07] I could do [24:08] to push the people [24:09] in my life away. [24:12] And fortunately, [24:13] I was surrounded [24:14] by people who saw [24:15] what was happening [24:16] and they took me [24:17] to get some help. [24:19] And one of the through lines [24:20] in talking to women like you [24:22] is just the shame [24:23] that endures. [24:25] And it may be less [24:28] acute than it was. [24:29] But how do you feel now [24:33] all these years later? [24:34] I think it is really important [24:37] to talk about [24:38] what shame actually is [24:40] because we confuse shame [24:44] with embarrassment, [24:46] with all sorts of other things. [24:48] But shame is this belief [24:51] that there's something wrong [24:54] with you, [24:55] that what happened [24:57] happened because of you. [24:59] And it makes you want [25:01] to hide from the world, [25:02] makes you feel like a fraud [25:04] in your own life. [25:06] And I wish I could say [25:08] I never feel like that, [25:11] but I still feel like that. [25:13] I've felt like that [25:14] in this conversation sometimes. [25:17] You know, I, [25:20] shame for me [25:21] is something that [25:22] feels dormant. [25:26] I carry it with me always [25:28] and I feel it [25:31] and I decide [25:32] to remember [25:33] that it wasn't my fault, [25:37] that I didn't deserve it. [25:38] And I, I fight back, [25:41] but it's still a struggle. [25:43] And you've shown though [25:44] also that you're [25:45] you're not defined [25:46] by what you went through. [25:47] You've moved on, [25:48] you're married, [25:50] you have two kids [25:51] and in many ways [25:56] you live a beautiful life [25:57] now that you probably [25:58] couldn't have imagined [25:59] before you went through [26:00] all the therapy [26:01] and the work [26:02] that you did go through. [26:03] Because you said, [26:04] I just thought I was [26:05] in this abyss [26:05] and that was it. [26:06] It was actually [26:07] when I was packing [26:08] the suitcase [26:09] to go to the hospital [26:10] and have my daughter. [26:13] It was the same suitcase [26:14] I had taken to Sochi. [26:15] And I found a luggage tag, [26:18] my NBC Sochi luggage tag. [26:22] And I saw it [26:23] and I wanted to lay [26:27] on the floor [26:27] in the fetal position [26:28] all over again. [26:32] But then I looked back [26:33] and I remembered [26:34] every single thing I did [26:36] to get through what happened, [26:39] to get out of the room, [26:40] to keep my job, [26:42] to report it. [26:45] Those choices brought me [26:47] to where I am today. [26:48] And if I hadn't done that, [26:50] I wouldn't be here. [26:51] What else do you hope [26:52] will be a takeaway [26:52] for readers from your book? [26:54] Especially in this moment [26:55] we're in with this reporting [26:57] out about these two members [26:58] of Congress [26:59] who have now resigned [27:00] and the reporting from CNN [27:02] about Congressman Swalwell [27:03] and the sexual misconduct [27:05] allegations. [27:06] Even in the aftermath [27:07] of Me Too, [27:09] that this continues to happen, [27:11] that people in positions [27:12] of power often abuse [27:16] that power. [27:17] And when that happens to you, [27:22] you often have nowhere to turn. [27:24] And I know how devastating that is. [27:28] I know how alone that feels. [27:31] And I know the courage [27:32] it takes to come forward. [27:40] Until we talk about [27:42] the messy gray areas. [27:45] Until we talk about [27:46] how power impacts [27:49] someone's ability to consent. [27:52] How you have to have the power [27:54] to say yes or no. [27:56] You have to think about [27:58] the position you're putting someone in. [28:01] This is just going to keep happening. [28:06] That's why I wrote the book. [28:07] We just have to do better.