Why are maritime laws failing to secure the seas? — Inside Story

[0:00] Commercial vessels under attack. The blockades by the US and Iran in the Strait of Hormuz are [0:06] disrupting global trade. The crisis highlights the danger conflicts and territorial disputes [0:11] pose to shipping. Why are maritime laws failing to secure the seas? This is Inside Story. [0:33] Hello again, I'm James Bayes. Wars and territorial disputes are rewriting the rules of global [0:39] shipping. From the Strait of Hormuz to the Panama Canal, from the Red Sea to the Black Sea, [0:44] maritime traffic is under increasing threat. The UN says global trade growth is expected to slow [0:51] from about 4.7% in 2025 to less than 2.5% this year. There's also the danger posed by pirates. [1:01] Last year, the number of piracy incidents rose to its highest in five years, [1:06] according to the International Maritime Bureau. So is shipping becoming the new global battleground? [1:12] Why are the decades-old laws governing the sea failing? We'll discuss all of this with our [1:18] guests when they join us in a moment. But first, this report by Ferdia Kaur. [1:23] The waters of the Strait of Hormuz may appear calm, [1:27] but they are a front line in the war between the US and Iran. [1:30] There is no permission for you to use the Strait of Hormuz. [1:34] You are ordered to go back to your departure immediately. [1:37] Iran's restrictions on shipping and the US blockade of Iranian ports [1:41] have effectively closed the crucial maritime trade route. [1:45] It's one of several waterways where freedom of navigation is at risk. [1:50] Though the principle is older, freedom of navigation became international law in 1982 [1:55] with the UN Convention on the Laws of the Sea. [1:58] It states that ships can't be impeded in international and territorial waters [2:02] as long as their passage is peaceful. [2:05] Those rules have maintained a system of free-flowing global trade, [2:09] which has grown from about $60 billion in the 1950s [2:12] to more than $25 trillion last year, according to the World Trade Organization. [2:18] The UN has warned that prosperity is under threat. [2:22] Navigational rights and freedoms must be restored immediately. [2:27] Open the Strait, let all ships pass, let the global economy breathe again. [2:33] Though not a signatory, the US has long seen itself as a guarantor of that principle. [2:40] It's led anti-piracy patrols in the Indian Ocean since 2009 [2:44] and carried out strikes against Houthis in the Red Sea in 2024 and 2025 [2:49] when the Yemeni armed group attacked ships it said were linked to Israel [2:53] in response to Israel's war on Gaza. [2:57] More recently, the Revolutionary Guard warned it could close the Bab al-Mandab Strait, [3:02] a choke point leading to the Suez Canal after President Donald Trump [3:06] said American forces would destroy Iranian power plants. [3:13] The US is also accused of violating freedom of navigation [3:16] by imposing a blockade on ships entering or leaving Iranian ports, [3:21] as is Tehran for its attacks on vessels in the Strait of Hormuz [3:25] and for drafting a law which would see a charge toll fees for safe passage. [3:29] Since 2022, both Russia and Ukraine have bombed each other's vessels in the Black Sea. [3:36] And it's not just international waterways. [3:39] Tensions between the US and China over the Panama Canal [3:42] have escalated during Trump's second term. [3:46] Washington accused Beijing of violating Panama's sovereignty [3:49] by detaining two of its vessels, [3:51] while China accuses the US of hypocrisy, [3:54] citing Trump's comments about taking back the canal. [3:57] Who is coveting the Panama Canal, [4:02] attempting to turn what should be a permanently neutral international waterway [4:06] into its own private channel, [4:08] while disregarding the sovereignty of countries in the region? [4:11] The answer is self-evident. [4:14] With maritime laws undermined, [4:17] there are fears that the ease of trade [4:19] on which the global economy depends could also be threatened. [4:23] Ferdi Akar, Al Jazeera, for Inside Story. [4:26] So, a complex subject, but we have the right guests [4:33] to make sense of this on today's Insight Story. [4:37] Joining us from Medford in Massachusetts, [4:40] Rockford Veits. [4:41] He is director of the Fletcher Maritime Studies Programme [4:44] at Tufts University. [4:46] George Theogridis is in Malmo in Sweden. [4:50] He's a professor of maritime law and policy [4:52] at the World Maritime University. [4:54] And in Kavala in Greece is Stavros Karamparidis, [4:58] an associate professor in maritime economics at Plymouth University. [5:03] So, we have an expert in the law, [5:05] an expert in the economy, [5:07] and an expert in the security situation. [5:09] Let's start with you then, Rockford. [5:11] Security is your area. [5:13] How bad is the state of maritime security? [5:18] Well, it's definitely not good. [5:21] 2026 has not been a good year for maritime security. [5:23] As we've seen, it's truly a global phenomenon [5:27] from what we saw in Venezuela and the Caribbean. [5:31] We've had issues in the Red Sea with the Houthis [5:33] and now in the Strait of Hormuz [5:35] and continued tensions in the South China Sea [5:37] and Taiwan Strait. [5:38] So, I would say it's under tremendous pressure. [5:42] Stavros, I mean, let's just start with the story [5:46] that is dominating and has been dominating the news [5:51] across the world now for a couple of months, [5:56] which is the war in Iran. [5:57] And what is interesting about this [5:59] is that a conflict that started with the nuclear issue [6:03] and the fear of nuclear war, [6:05] it seems now a waterway is a more potent weapon [6:10] than a nuclear warhead. [6:12] Thank you very much for having me, James. [6:16] And to be frank, yes, [6:18] I think that's the $1 billion question [6:20] that you're just asking, [6:22] which it seems that we underestimate it [6:24] in the global sphere, [6:26] the importance of shipping. [6:27] And shipping, as we constantly say, [6:30] is the backbone of the global economy. [6:33] And anyone who is able to control that [6:36] is able to kind of control [6:38] where the global economy goes. [6:40] So, I think what we're seeing [6:41] in the Strait of Hormuz at the moment [6:43] is exactly what you described. [6:46] It's like people are trying to project their power [6:48] according to where they want the economy to go. [6:52] And I wouldn't equivalent it to a nuclear warhead, [6:56] but definitely can make a huge damage. [6:58] And we see some damage happening already [7:00] in the global economy [7:01] because of the closure of the Strait of Hormuz. [7:03] So, I think we should look at it in cautious [7:06] and see how the things will evolve. [7:09] George, there are supposed to be laws. [7:11] We'll come into more detail [7:12] of what those laws are. [7:14] But Iran is, or has been, [7:18] running the Strait of Hormuz [7:20] as though it's a toll booth. [7:23] That's against international law. [7:25] And it's not just Iran, [7:26] now the US with its own blockade. [7:29] And of course, it was the US [7:31] that started along with Israel this war. [7:35] Or many say in breach of the UN Charter. [7:40] Well, first, let me start by thanking you [7:42] for having me here. [7:44] It's a very complicated issue. [7:47] And I'll try to keep it as simple as possible. [7:51] Indeed, we have rules. [7:54] We have primarily the United Nations Convention [7:57] of the Law of the Sea, [7:58] which was shown earlier, [8:00] which to a certain extent has codified [8:03] previous customary rules. [8:05] Now, interestingly, both belligerent states, [8:09] albeit in ceasefire at the moment, [8:12] they have not ratified the Convention. [8:14] They've only signed the Convention. [8:15] Therefore, they're not bound in the strict sense. [8:18] However, they're bound by international [8:21] and international customary law. [8:24] So the question is whether those acts [8:26] really are infringing the system that we have. [8:31] Well, I'm going to say that at the moment, [8:35] the global system of my time, [8:37] governance that we have, [8:38] is under a huge pressure. [8:41] Now, if you make legislation [8:43] which is very detailed, [8:45] the states are very suffocated. [8:47] They feel suffocated. [8:48] They will not ratify it. [8:49] If you get too much freedom [8:50] and you ask really for the states [8:52] to act responsibly, [8:53] then you have what you call the gray areas [8:56] where the agitators, [8:58] the perpetrators, [8:59] can commit certain acts. [9:01] At the moment, [9:02] we have an unprecedented [9:03] really double blockade. [9:05] And, of course, [9:06] the most significant repercussion [9:09] at the moment, [9:09] apart, of course, [9:11] from the legal dimension, [9:13] is the fact that [9:14] navigation, [9:16] freedom of navigation, [9:16] which is a sacrosanct rule, [9:18] has been really at the moment [9:20] under tremendous pressure. [9:22] So, just to keep it simple, [9:25] I think at the moment, [9:27] the rules are being [9:29] under a lot of pressure. [9:30] So, the law isn't working, [9:32] the economy of it's not working, [9:34] and the security situation [9:35] is not working. [9:38] Let's, I think, [9:38] go back and explain [9:40] what's at stake with all of this [9:42] and how global shipping works. [9:45] And, I mean, [9:45] I was doing the research on this. [9:46] You'll all know this, [9:47] but I didn't. [9:48] There's a very important date, [9:50] a date that, some say, [9:52] changed the world. [9:53] And it's not one [9:54] that was in my mind. [9:55] The 26th of April, 1956, [9:58] that's when a man [10:00] called Malcolm McLean, [10:01] a trucking entrepreneur [10:03] from North Carolina, [10:05] loaded truck bodies, [10:06] aluminium truck bodies, [10:08] on a World War II tanker, [10:11] took five days for them [10:12] to go from Newark and New Jersey [10:15] to Houston, Texas. [10:17] And that was [10:18] the first container ship [10:21] in essence. [10:24] Perhaps you can tell us, [10:25] Stavros, [10:25] about containerization [10:27] and how it completely [10:30] revolutionized the world. [10:33] Yes. [10:33] And the name of the vessel [10:34] was the Ideal X, [10:35] which is, you know, [10:36] the mother vessel [10:37] of everything else [10:38] that was built on it. [10:41] You're absolutely right. [10:42] Since the birth [10:42] of containerization, [10:44] transportation [10:44] become cheaper. [10:46] thanks to Malcolm McLean, [10:47] we managed to see [10:48] how we can reduce [10:50] inefficiencies. [10:51] And since then, [10:52] the other logistics operations, [10:54] they're always trying [10:55] to reduce [10:56] inefficiency in the system. [10:57] So that's why [10:58] we managed to have [10:59] a very efficient system [11:00] because of shipping. [11:01] That's why shipping [11:02] is carrying approximately [11:03] 85% of the global trade [11:05] in terms of volume [11:06] because it's cheap, [11:09] reliable, [11:09] and resilient. [11:12] And the thing is that, [11:13] you know, [11:14] I can give you [11:14] some very bold figures. [11:15] You know, [11:16] everybody's talking about, [11:17] for example, [11:18] the cost of oil [11:19] and all that kind of stuff. [11:20] Before the crisis, [11:22] transferring with a VLCC [11:23] a barrel of oil [11:26] was 0.03 US dollars. [11:29] You know, [11:29] we're talking about [11:29] a fraction of it. [11:30] Now, [11:31] because of what is happening, [11:32] because of the increased [11:33] insurance costs, [11:34] because of all the other issues, [11:36] the increased freight rates [11:37] that we are hearing [11:38] left, right, and center, [11:40] that has increased tenfold. [11:42] And of course, [11:42] now we were talking [11:43] about 0.3 US dollars per day, [11:46] which if you consider [11:47] that every vessel [11:48] takes a lot of time [11:49] to go from point A to point B, [11:51] that adds a lot [11:52] to the overall [11:53] transportation costs. [11:56] So, [11:56] thankfully, [11:58] as we said, [11:59] we managed with shipping [12:00] to be able [12:01] to fuel globalization [12:02] because it was [12:03] very cheap and reliable. [12:04] Unfortunately, [12:05] with what George [12:06] was mentioned a minute ago, [12:08] is that [12:08] that is under question. [12:09] Stavros, [12:10] what I find interesting [12:11] is that this is [12:12] a sort of invisible [12:14] infrastructure. [12:15] None of us think [12:16] about it, [12:16] how we get stuff, [12:18] how the food arrives, [12:19] how the fuel arrives. [12:21] But this goes on [12:22] and has gone on [12:23] for decades, [12:24] this global supply chain [12:26] by ships. [12:28] And it affects everyone, [12:29] not just the rich people [12:30] in society. [12:31] If you're living [12:32] in a tent, [12:34] some of the aid deliveries [12:35] and food [12:35] will be coming [12:36] by shipping. [12:38] That's totally correct, [12:39] James. [12:39] And, you know, [12:40] we have approximately [12:41] 100,000 vessels [12:42] operating around the globe. [12:44] You know, [12:45] we heard in the news [12:47] several times [12:48] that there are [12:48] 20,000 sailors [12:50] have been trapped [12:51] in the Strait of Hormuz [12:52] because of the [12:52] overall situation. [12:53] You know, [12:53] there are thousands [12:54] and millions [12:55] of people operating [12:56] into the maritime sector. [12:58] And we're very pleased [12:59] to say that, [13:00] you know, [13:00] we were doing that [13:01] for many, many years [13:02] without attracting [13:02] any of attention [13:03] because we're very reliable [13:05] and very cost-effective [13:06] on what shipping is doing [13:07] and is able to do. [13:09] But as you rightly said, [13:10] what is happening now, [13:11] it has a knock-on effect [13:12] to everybody [13:12] because, you know, [13:13] the simplest thing [13:14] you have to consider, [13:15] you know, [13:15] when the oil price goes up, [13:17] that means that the bankers, [13:19] the fuel cost [13:20] that the vessels are paying [13:21] is increasing. [13:22] I can give you an example. [13:23] Before the war, [13:25] it was approximately [13:26] 3,480 US dollars per tonne. [13:28] Now, [13:28] we're talking about [13:29] nearly 900. [13:30] So, you know, [13:31] nearly double up [13:32] the amount of fuel cost [13:34] that is required [13:34] for moving the vessels. [13:36] So, as you can imagine, [13:37] all those costs [13:37] have been accumulated [13:39] in the overall operations [13:40] of the vessel. [13:41] And, of course, [13:42] that will pass [13:43] to the final customer [13:44] because someone [13:46] will have to pay for that. [13:48] Rockford, [13:48] I mean, [13:49] there's also what's called [13:50] the just-in-time economy [13:52] making things, [13:53] including fresh produce, [13:54] arrive just when it is [13:56] needed. [13:58] All of this, though, [14:00] has created a fragility, [14:02] has it not, [14:03] which is now being exploited? [14:05] We saw it in COVID-19, [14:06] but now it's being exploited [14:08] by bad actors. [14:12] This is correct, yeah. [14:13] And thank you also [14:14] for having me. [14:15] It's great to be here. [14:17] So, you're absolutely [14:18] right about that, [14:19] that what we saw, [14:20] really, COVID-19 [14:21] was the first peacetime [14:24] global disruption of trade. [14:26] And we saw all kinds [14:27] of vulnerabilities. [14:29] It's kind of hard to imagine [14:30] that that was six years ago. [14:32] And there have been efforts [14:33] to try to increase [14:34] resilience in the system [14:36] and do some what's called [14:37] reshoring locally [14:39] for larger countries [14:41] like the United States [14:42] or regionally in Europe [14:44] or North America, [14:45] for example. [14:46] But as we have witnessed [14:48] over the last two months, [14:50] just one critical maritime [14:53] choke point being blocked [14:54] for an extended period [14:56] has all kinds of second [14:57] and third order effects. [14:59] And so, we're seeing it [15:00] not just with hydrocarbons, [15:02] with liquefied natural gas, [15:04] crude oil, [15:05] but also fertilizer, [15:07] helium, food coming in. [15:10] Aid is actually avoiding [15:11] even the Red Sea. [15:12] So, it's going from India [15:13] all the way around Africa [15:15] through straight of Gibraltar [15:17] and Suez Canal [15:17] to get to Port Sudan for Sudan. [15:19] This is, this really is, [15:22] I would say it's not unprecedented [15:25] in history, [15:27] but it is unprecedented [15:29] since the end of World War II. [15:31] So, during this, [15:32] the sort of peaceful rise [15:34] of globalization [15:35] and certainly since the age [15:37] of containerization [15:38] was launched by Malcolm McLean [15:41] in the 50s. [15:41] So, in that case, [15:43] the whole system [15:45] is under pressure [15:47] and we're seeing it [15:50] regionally and globally. [15:53] So, George, [15:55] I mean, [15:55] mentioned there from Rockford [15:57] of these problem areas, [16:00] choke points, [16:01] bottlenecks in the system. [16:03] And my understanding [16:04] is they don't all [16:05] have the same legal basis. [16:08] The Suez Canal [16:09] is not the same [16:11] as the Strait of Hormuz, [16:12] for example. [16:13] That is absolutely right. [16:17] Indeed, [16:18] the law of the sea [16:20] has made [16:20] a very clear distinction [16:22] of the different areas [16:24] and, of course, [16:25] the different rules [16:26] that apply. [16:27] Let me just say [16:28] at this point [16:28] that the legislator, [16:30] I'm talking about [16:31] the UNCLOS, [16:32] has very... [16:33] Sorry, [16:34] I'm going to interrupt you there. [16:36] UNCLOS, [16:36] just tell me what that is [16:37] to be absolutely clear [16:39] what that... [16:39] UN love their acronyms. [16:41] Tell me what UNCLOS is. [16:42] Sorry, [16:44] I mentioned it earlier. [16:45] It was actually shown [16:46] on the video, [16:47] United Nations Convention [16:48] of the Law of the Sea, [16:49] which is what we call [16:51] the Constitution of the Oceans [16:52] because of the large number [16:54] of ratifications [16:55] that it has. [16:57] So the legislator [16:58] has very clearly [17:00] made differences [17:02] and different legal treatment [17:04] about the different waters. [17:06] So in the case of a strait, [17:09] there are certain rights [17:11] which can be exercised, [17:12] apart, of course, [17:13] from the right of navigation. [17:15] We also have the right [17:16] of transit passage. [17:18] And again, [17:19] the legislation, [17:21] it's very clear, [17:22] no duties, [17:23] no charges [17:24] are supposed to be imposed [17:26] unless there is a service. [17:28] So in the case [17:29] of Panama Canal [17:31] or Suez Canal, [17:32] where you have installations, [17:34] infrastructure, [17:35] and therefore expenses, [17:36] and some service [17:37] is actually being paid, [17:40] then in that case [17:40] that is perfectly justified. [17:42] But in the case of straits, [17:45] this is really [17:46] not a gray area, [17:49] but something that [17:50] I would venture to say [17:51] will bring us back [17:52] to the Dark Ages [17:53] where we were trying [17:54] to convince [17:55] as an international [17:56] legal community [17:57] that we should have [17:58] freedom of navigations. [17:59] Back at that time [18:00] in the 17th century, [18:02] there were assertions [18:02] by the big nations [18:04] at that time, [18:05] one-time nations [18:06] like Spain and Portugal [18:07] that there should be [18:08] exclusive sovereign rights [18:10] in the seas. [18:11] And that, of course, [18:12] was linked at that time again [18:13] with the trade lanes. [18:15] So we moved from that. [18:17] Yet with these kinds of actions, [18:18] I see that we're trying, [18:20] we're trying in a way [18:22] to bring back from a backdoor [18:23] something which we would expect [18:26] that it's out of any discussion. [18:28] Let's bring in Stavros [18:30] and talk about piracy. [18:33] And people think of the image [18:35] of a pirate with the tricorn hat [18:37] and the cutlass [18:38] and the jolly Roger flag. [18:39] Tell us about piracy [18:41] in the modern world. [18:45] In the modern world, [18:46] pirates are very sophisticated. [18:49] They have specialized sections, [18:52] how they operate. [18:53] And we've done recently [18:54] a work on that, [18:55] on what has happened [18:57] of the Gulf of Guinea [18:58] and how the pirates [18:59] are operating over there. [19:00] But what we're seeing now [19:01] at the moment is that, [19:03] unfortunately, [19:03] because of a lot of naval forces [19:05] being in the area of the Gulf, [19:08] in the Persian Gulf, [19:09] there is a lot of activity [19:12] in other places [19:13] that was forgotten about. [19:15] So a lot of pirates [19:16] because of the, [19:17] previously, [19:18] there used to be [19:19] a lot of naval operations [19:21] taking place [19:22] in other parts of the globe. [19:23] And now they've been repositioned [19:25] either back in Europe [19:25] for protecting [19:26] the European continents [19:28] or coming into Mediterranean [19:29] or in the Middle East. [19:31] that's why they found [19:32] opportunity gaps, [19:34] let's call them that way, [19:36] that they were able [19:37] to go out [19:38] and do what they used to do [19:40] for a couple of years ago. [19:42] And unfortunately, [19:43] that's not a good scenario [19:45] because, [19:45] as you know, [19:46] there's not a limited amount [19:47] of naval power out there. [19:50] And of course, [19:50] I'm sure Rockford [19:51] will tell us [19:52] a bit more on that. [19:53] but because we have [19:55] a limited amount [19:56] of naval forces [19:57] at the moment, [19:58] we could probably imagine [20:00] what will happen [20:00] if those naval forces [20:01] are being deployed [20:02] in specific areas [20:03] that piracy will start [20:04] merging up again [20:05] in areas that we've seen [20:07] that has kind of [20:07] clearly, [20:08] closely to elimination. [20:11] They were close [20:11] to elimination. [20:12] Well, let me ask you, [20:13] Rockford, [20:14] about those naval forces. [20:16] I think it's interesting. [20:17] You don't have to go [20:18] back that far. [20:19] In 2009, [20:21] the UN Security Council [20:23] was unanimous [20:24] on this issue. [20:25] It was about [20:25] Somali pirates [20:27] at the time. [20:28] They formed something [20:29] called Combined Task Force 151 [20:32] and it was supported [20:34] by all the five [20:35] permanent members [20:36] of the Security Council [20:38] deploying naval forces [20:40] on the same side. [20:42] We're in a different world [20:43] now, aren't we? [20:45] Yes, we are. [20:47] I cover this [20:48] in both my [20:48] Maritime Geopolitics class [20:50] and my law, [20:50] the C-class [20:51] because it is important [20:52] to distinguish piracy [20:54] from non-state armed groups [20:57] like the Houthis [20:57] that are really engaged [20:59] in kind of asymmetric warfare. [21:01] So let me try [21:02] to unpack it. [21:03] So what really has, [21:05] what you were referring to [21:07] back in 2009 [21:08] was the assembly [21:09] of the greatest, [21:10] most powerful [21:11] maritime coalition [21:12] in history. [21:13] It included NATO, [21:14] it included Japan [21:16] and China, [21:17] it included even Iran [21:19] contributed to it [21:20] as well as India [21:21] and Pakistan. [21:21] So you can imagine [21:22] essentially everyone [21:25] could unify [21:26] and the international law [21:28] against piracy [21:29] is quite clear [21:30] and not controversial, [21:31] but everyone could unify [21:33] against the Somali pirates. [21:34] And there were no [21:36] permanent members [21:37] of the UN Security Council [21:38] that would get in the way [21:39] of a UN Security Council resolution. [21:41] So it was much easier [21:43] to assemble [21:44] a maritime coalition [21:45] back on that maritime challenge. [21:49] What we're seeing unfold today [21:51] is different [21:52] because Russia in particular [21:55] is willing to get in the way [21:57] of a UN Security Council resolution. [22:00] Bahrain has tried to do that, [22:02] but Russia actually likes [22:04] these high oil prices. [22:05] So they're not eager [22:07] for this to be resolved. [22:09] China is actually different. [22:10] And I think China [22:11] is actually at this point [22:14] eager for both [22:16] the U.S. blockade [22:17] and the disruptions [22:18] in the Strait of Hormuz [22:19] by the Islamic Revolutionary [22:21] Guard Corps Navy [22:22] to dissipate and move on. [22:25] And so fundamentally, [22:27] the other issue I'll mention [22:28] is last point [22:30] is what we've also seen [22:32] is the rise of drone warfare. [22:34] This really started [22:35] in the Black Sea [22:36] where the Ukrainians [22:37] who don't have a Navy [22:38] essentially defeated [22:40] the Russian Black Sea Navy [22:42] and even sunk its flagship, [22:44] the Moskva. [22:45] And then we saw the Houthis [22:47] take similar technology drones [22:49] and then also they were [22:51] the first non-state armed group [22:52] to launch an anti-ship ballistic missile. [22:55] And they did that [22:56] after October 7th, [22:57] disrupting commercial shipping [22:58] through the Bab al-Mandeb [23:00] and the Red Sea. [23:01] And that commercial shipping [23:03] is never actually fully returned. [23:05] And then we see the IRGC, [23:08] the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, [23:09] around the Strait of Hormuz [23:11] use small boats, [23:12] fiber optic drones [23:13] that can't be jammed [23:15] and then, of course, [23:16] anti-ship missiles. [23:18] And so fundamentally, [23:19] in sum, [23:20] what we're seeing here [23:22] is the international maritime law regime [23:25] is under pressure [23:26] from new technology [23:27] where geography [23:29] like the Strait of Hormuz [23:30] can be used [23:32] for what's called [23:33] asymmetric warfare. [23:34] So using relatively cheap technologies [23:37] like drones [23:38] to disrupt commercial shipping [23:40] and put navies, [23:41] kind of push the navies back [23:43] into deeper waters. [23:45] The navies can go through, [23:47] but they risk casualties [23:49] or damage to their ships. [23:50] So happy to discuss any of that. [23:52] So let me bring in George [23:55] on some of those points. [23:56] Is this not just the maritime dimension [23:59] of what we're seeing elsewhere, [24:01] which is everyone has stopped abiding [24:04] by the rules that were there [24:06] since World War II? [24:07] And what is that going to mean [24:09] for international shipping [24:10] if we go back to, [24:11] you know, [24:12] much more ancient times [24:13] yet with much more sophisticated weaponry? [24:19] Well, this is really a crucial question. [24:22] This is really the core of the matter. [24:24] I'd like to echo what was said earlier [24:26] by both of my colleagues. [24:29] And what I said earlier [24:30] about the global system [24:31] of maritime governance [24:32] or ocean governance [24:33] against the backdrop that we had, [24:37] which was really [24:38] the international law, [24:40] customary law, [24:41] but also the UN Charter [24:43] post-Second World War. [24:46] It seems that at the moment, [24:48] the model, [24:49] which was structured again [24:51] at that time [24:51] with the five members [24:54] of the Security Council [24:55] and the unanimity [24:56] which is required, [24:57] this is, again, [24:59] under pressure. [25:00] And it seems that [25:02] unless the rules of the game, [25:05] if I could use that expression, [25:07] to a certain extent, [25:08] either are respected [25:09] or somehow we find [25:11] an amendment coming forward, [25:15] we will have the same problems. [25:17] we saw that where, [25:20] as it was said earlier, [25:21] in 2009, [25:22] there was absolute unanimity. [25:24] All the international community [25:25] was on that particular matter [25:27] on the same ground. [25:29] At the moment, [25:30] we see that whenever, [25:32] and also in other areas, [25:35] whenever there is an attempt, [25:36] really, [25:37] to pass a resolution, [25:39] one of the members [25:40] of the Security Council [25:41] is blocking it, [25:42] which, of course, [25:43] tests again [25:44] the limits of our system, [25:45] the system, [25:46] which, as I said earlier, [25:48] is the one that ensures [25:49] that we have [25:51] the supply chain in place. [25:53] We have a system of navigation. [25:54] Let me bring in Stavros [25:56] at the end. [25:57] And just, I mean, [25:58] there is a risk [25:59] of widening war [26:00] around the world. [26:01] But if we're just talking [26:02] about disruption, [26:04] who is paying the price of this? [26:07] I assume it's all of us. [26:10] That's absolutely right. [26:11] It's everybody. [26:12] And so we have to consider [26:14] that shipping, for example, [26:15] is responsible for carrying [26:17] several billion tons of cargo. [26:20] Just to remind you, [26:21] for example, [26:21] that the value of a vessel, [26:22] as we were talking [26:23] a minute ago about piracy, [26:25] a value of a vessel [26:26] approximately is 150 million [26:28] for one vessel. [26:29] And you have to consider [26:30] that some of them, [26:30] they have a couple of billions [26:32] on top of that [26:32] in terms of value of cargo. [26:34] So it makes sense that, [26:36] first of all, [26:37] the pirates want to get hold of them. [26:39] And also, [26:39] whatever is happening [26:40] in the region, [26:41] everybody wants to use shipping [26:42] as a bargaining chip [26:43] because there is a lot of power [26:46] in terms of economics on it. [26:48] You know, [26:48] it costs a lot of money [26:49] to move stuff around the globe [26:50] and everything has been [26:51] loaded on vessels. [26:53] Stavros Karamparidis, [26:55] George Theokaridis [26:56] and Rockford Vice, [26:58] thank you for joining us [26:59] on today's Inside Story. [27:01] If you missed any of this [27:02] fascinating discussion, [27:03] don't worry. [27:04] You can watch the program again [27:05] anytime you want [27:06] at aljazeera.com. [27:07] What did you think of this topic? [27:09] You can post on our Facebook page, [27:10] facebook.com forward slash [27:12] AJ Inside Story [27:13] or join the conversation on X. [27:15] There you'll find us [27:16] at AJ Inside Story. [27:18] For now, [27:18] that's it from me, [27:19] James Bays and the team here. [27:21] But of course, [27:21] it's not it from Al Jazeera. [27:23] Coverage continues around the clock. [27:25] Stand by for an update [27:26] in just a moment.