Why are global views of the US getting worse? — The Stream

[0:00] The good old U.S. of A, widely seen as the world's superpower. What do you think? [0:05] It's something that you guys are passionately debating online. What is [0:09] its global standing? Many of you are not happy. I'm Stephanie Decker and on today's episode of [0:14] the stream we ask, what is happening for the United States? Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to [0:23] the United States of America. People don't understand what it's like to be from the south [0:28] because now America is the south of the rest of the western world, right? You know we're [0:34] dropping billion dollar bombs on brown people for no reason and we don't even have health [0:39] insurance in this country. It is changing how America is perceived. In Europe, leaders no longer are [0:54] whispering about this issue anymore. They're openly talking about what's called strategic autonomy. [0:58] Translation, we don't trust Washington and we can't trust America anymore. Do you think the [1:02] reputation of the United States has gone down under your presidency? No, I think it's gone way up and [1:08] I think we're a respected country again. We were laughed at all over the world. We had a president [1:13] that was grossly incompetent. You knew it, I knew it, and everybody knew it, but you guys didn't want [1:18] to write it because you're fake news. Now despite what Trump says there, several recent surveys and [1:22] polls are showing that opinions about the United States have been going south for years and continue to [1:27] do so. Why is that? Let's dive straight into it with Jonathan Shulman. He's a global attitudes researcher [1:33] at Pew Research Center and he joins us from Washington, D.C. And we're also joined by George Lee, [1:39] educator and content creator. His work sits at the intersection of media, socio-political issues and [1:45] popular culture and he joins us from Houston in Texas. Now to kick off our discussion, I want to play this clip [1:53] posted by an American expat in China. He overheard a couple of businessmen talking at the pool, [1:58] as you do. Watch this. I'm at a resort right now and I was just by the pool and I heard [2:04] a couple of different people talking about America. And as an American who lives outside of America, [2:10] I live in China, it was fascinating to listen to it. There was a Brit, there was an Australian, [2:14] and there was a Pakistani. And they were talking about global trade and all the political stuff that's [2:19] happening. And the Australian was just going on and on about how America used to be our biggest ally [2:25] and everything that Trump says now is like, you can never trust him. And then they were talking about [2:30] China and how they have such a better business relationship with China now. Now they can trust [2:35] them so much more. And the honest truth about all of this is in the past six months, America's [2:41] standing in the world has just totally imploded to the point where people are on vacation in a pool [2:48] talking about how they can't trust Americans anymore because we're unreliable, not good [2:53] trading partners. And they're just laughing at how pathetic the political situation in America is. [2:59] Now Jonathan, you were the lead researcher in a Pew Research Center survey. It was in July of last [3:06] year. What did people then abroad feel about the United States and its standing? Attitudes and a lot of our [3:15] different measures were mixed. We saw that the favorable views of the U.S. have declined since [3:22] we last asked in 2024. We also saw that people still wanted to have a close economic relationship with [3:28] the U.S. In most of the countries we surveyed, most of the 24 countries we surveyed, people said they wanted [3:35] to have a close economic relationship with the U.S. more than China, but they lacked confidence in President [3:41] Trump to handle issues like the global economy. And they viewed him as arrogant, as dangerous. [3:48] And they were concerned about both U.S. domestic and foreign policy. [3:53] And it's interesting, isn't it? Because, George, since last July, we have had a list of things that [4:01] President Donald Trump has executed. He's kidnapped the Venezuelan president. He's threatened to annex [4:07] Canada. He's put an oil blockade on Cuba. He put tariffs on his allies. He's threatened to leave [4:13] NATO. Of course, the U.S.-Israeli war on Iran. I mean, the list goes on. I probably missed something [4:20] there. But that's just internationally. I want to get to domestic in a second. How do you see the U.S. [4:27] is standing internationally today with everything that's happened? I think the Internet allowed for [4:34] the world to see American imperialism illustrated every day. And I think when we start to capture [4:41] all the different moments that American militarism is impacting the world at the same time in a short [4:46] time span, it really starts to make us reevaluate the narrative that we're told about American democracy [4:54] and they were told about America being the great watchdog of the world that ensures safety and freedom [4:59] for everybody. Yeah, because I guess a lot of people used to refer to the U.S. as the policeman, [5:05] right? Jonathan, I'm interested to get your opinion on this. You've been looking into this for years. [5:11] Is this just a Trump thing or has there been a decline when it comes to other presidents as well? [5:21] We were seeing, especially from 2022 to 2024, a gradual decline in a lot of our countries surveyed [5:27] in favorability of the U.S. So in 2025, it was a steep decline from 2024, but it was also a bit of a [5:35] continuation of a trend. We know from a question we asked in 2024 that a good a good portion of the world says [5:43] that U.S. democracy used to be a good example for other countries to follow, but no longer is. [5:49] So it does seem that people are paying close attention to to the domestic situation in the U.S., as well as its foreign [5:55] policies, of course. George, just to follow up briefly on. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Jump in there. [6:00] But say my hypothesis is that the way American democracy was working domestically has always [6:11] been under a guise that tells us as Americans here domestically that whatever America is doing with [6:16] our tax dollars through the military is always for the good to ensure stability and always good to [6:21] ensure freedom. Now that we're able to see Donald Trump is in office, he's not going along with the [6:26] business as usual, particularly in a way that allows for Americans to see our government and our [6:31] military as being the great benevolent force of the world that ensures the bad guys get thrown down. [6:36] Now that Donald Trump has been saying straight up front, hey, I want that oil there. [6:41] Tell those guys to do this. Tell those guys to do that. And he's doing it in a very non-diplomatic way. [6:46] It's capturing the exact ugly monster that America has been for a very long time. So to answer the [6:52] question, I know I don't have the data, but I think from just a structural analysis thinking about how [6:56] history has worked specifically in America, I think the decline of the American empire really started [7:03] to come to fruition the longer we got to be on the internet and see that we have two different [7:07] narratives. The reason that Donald Trump has attacked my industry in America, social media, [7:12] is because he can't dictate. The American government can't dictate the narrative of how us Americans are [7:17] experiencing America. So then they were able to get with Netanyahu to make sure they got the apprehension of [7:22] TikTok because us as Americans now are seeing that the imperialism the rest of the world has been [7:28] experiencing is now the fascism being turned inward on us. It's interesting you're alluding there that [7:34] the mask is off, right, that Trump isn't really knew what he's doing. He's just doing it quite brazenly [7:39] and doesn't care what he says. I'm going to come to you in a second, Jonathan, because Pew released [7:44] another survey just last week and it found that 61 percent of Americans actually disapprove of Trump's [7:49] handling of Iran. Jonathan, you are the global attitudes researcher for Pew. Now, there isn't any data [7:55] yet for global attitudes towards the U.S. after it, official data after it launched its war with Israel [8:01] against Iran. But we took a look at the online attitudes. Now, most comments criticize it. This guy [8:08] says Americans never getting health care, bro. If you look elsewhere, it says the world hates us and there's a lot of [8:15] agreement with this now. Americans feeling that the spotlight is on them. Sounds like the USA is going [8:21] backwards. What else are you guys saying? This is exactly why America is broke now. Another user went a little [8:30] further by saying arrogance comes before the fall. Others just plainly said we do not support this war. [8:38] Jonathan, how do you react to that? I know that you are a researcher, but you're also an American. [8:48] How would you see the world going right now? And especially when you interview people in your [8:54] research, like, you know, what do you ask them? And have they perhaps given you a little bit more to go [9:00] on about how they see the state of the world where we find ourselves today? Yeah, it's a great question. [9:07] We ask people a lot of the same questions year over year so we can zoom out and look at big change over time. [9:13] So that's where we ask a lot of these questions about [9:15] favorability of the U.S., confidence in presidents to handle a lot of different issues. [9:21] And like you said, we just asked a series of questions about [9:25] the current conflict with Iran in the U.S., and we released some data last week. We'll have [9:30] some more data coming shortly on that topic. And Americans echo a lot of these sentiments, [9:37] broad disapproval, a lot of concerns ranging from higher gas prices to the war expanding beyond the [9:45] region to involvement of U.S. ground troops and lots of other concerns. Obviously, they're split [9:52] along partisan lines. Democrats tend to be more concerned than Republicans. But even within the [9:57] Republican Party, we see things like younger Republicans are a lot more worried and a lot [10:03] less approving of some of these actions abroad than older Republicans are. So we do see some splits there [10:08] as well. George, you're in Texas, right? A red state. We have had a split within Trump's base somewhat. [10:17] I want to talk to you domestically, right? I also did my own research talking to a couple of my American [10:23] friends before the show. One of them said to me, well, you know, Steph, most Americans don't care about [10:28] the international standing. Some probably don't even know what NATO is. Not all, obviously. But she [10:33] said, you know, they're mostly caring about gas prices, affordability, the fact that life is becoming [10:38] more expensive. How do you see it, George? How would you describe the situation at home? [10:45] I would describe the situation as home using my expertise in education. The average American has a [10:51] extremely low reading level. And I think that when we talk about what Americans care about, our low reading [10:57] level usually reflects how we care about the structural things that's going on in this world. [11:01] A lot of Americans have a hard time connecting the dots internationally in how there are particular [11:06] wars going on that is impacting your gas prices at home. I'm reminded of a quote that I think is very [11:13] appropriate in this time. When the Roman Empire was falling, it's a quote that says that at that time, [11:19] they had the number one military in the world as well. It was just ran by idiots. And I think that [11:23] America right now has that reflected. So regardless of what American citizens think, [11:28] we know that the American government has been acting in the interests of corporations and has [11:32] been allowing for them to put more money in the military than our domestic education. And right now, [11:38] when you go, when y'all have these type of specials and y'all talk about how Americans view, [11:42] you know, international, do we know NATO? Most Americans don't know NATO. But that is a reflection of [11:47] the American government no longer starting to invest in the constituents here and the citizens here [11:52] and making sure that we can read and comprehend and starting making sure that Exxon Mobile and making [11:56] sure that all the military gets their billions of dollars. So we're not going to get that health care [12:00] anytime, bro. But it's interesting, isn't it? Because like Jonathan, you're alluding to that. [12:06] I've been reading several different polls and they're all saying the same thing, like Politico early 2025 [12:11] saying America's brand fading from within that the country is divided. Also saying the brand finance soft power [12:19] index that America's soft power is going down and actually we're seeing a rise in China. George, [12:25] go ahead. I see you saying something. I was reading over American hegemony before we got here today. [12:33] And I was thinking about the way that hegemony works in soft power and it works in hard power. Right now, [12:38] the cultural narrative, the overall perspective of America was the soft power. The soft power being that [12:44] the globe used to look on to America as being the leadership of democracy of how to have fair elections, [12:49] how to have the transfer of power would be very smooth. Now, over time, we've seen culturally [12:55] all that long PR that America has worked so hard to make sure the rest of the world views [13:01] is no longer seen that way. Why? Because of them cell phones, because of social media. [13:06] Once the American corporations and the government no longer had the ability to dictate the narrative, [13:11] then you have individuals like me. People watching this right now, do y'all think the American [13:15] government or American corporation would give a guy like me an opportunity to speak? What I'm [13:19] talking about? No. That's how I've been able to build my audience. And that's one of the reasons [13:24] why the overall perspective of America is starting to be viewed different because now different people [13:29] have the microphone. Soft power in America used to be how they treated black people. Even though they [13:34] treated us bad in America, they'd be like, hey, look at the black people. We let them rap. We let them [13:38] sing. We let them dance. Don't you want to be a part of this? Now people like me have social media and we're [13:43] able to see. Yeah, they let us sing and let us dance, but they were killing us. So a lot of America right now [13:48] is starting to view this country the way black people have been viewing this country for a hundred [13:51] years. Hundreds of years, I should say. Interesting. And just to segue off that to [13:57] Jonathan about how different people view the U.S. but internationally, I suppose it depends what kind [14:02] of a country, because we've seen a massive decline in Canadian support, for example, in America. A lot of [14:08] Canadians. I see you laughing, George. Exactly. Well, now that U.S. President Donald Trump has threatened to [14:13] annex Canada as the 51st state. I think the approval ratings have gone from 50 something to 19 percent. [14:20] This kind of language, I was trying in the research of the show, look at other presidents in other [14:26] parts of the world. I don't see anyone who talks like this threatening to annex, to invade, to bomb [14:33] back to the stone ages. Jonathan, do you see a further decline in the U.S.'s standing if this kind of [14:41] conversation and reality continues? It's hard to say what we're going to see. We're going to get new [14:46] data back in just a couple of months. Canada is actually a really great example. You mentioned China, [14:53] one of the videos you played mentioned China as a global partner. Canada was one of the countries we [15:00] saw have a huge decline in favorability of the U.S. and they're a country that views both Trump and Xi [15:07] Xi Jinping pretty poorly. So they're a country that says they want to have a lot of folks in Canada [15:15] say they want to have strong economic relations with both the U.S. and China, but they don't [15:19] particularly have a lot of confidence in either leader. And you see things like Canadians calling for [15:26] for more general alliances possibly as a result of that. Certainly all the polls. China is creeping up [15:34] slowly when it comes to trust. Also the economy as business partners. So things are slowly changing, [15:41] I guess. Now I want to play another clip because people online are not just focusing on whether the [15:46] U.S. is a reliable global partner, but it's also on its image as a nation of immigrants. The concept [15:52] of the American dream has been questioned. The idea that anyone can come in and make it in America [15:56] regardless of socioeconomic background. George, I see you cracking up. And ethnicity, the land of the free. [16:01] And many are expressing doubts whether that is still true. America is a country of immigrants [16:07] and this idea that there was always this ideal of we accept all kinds of people. We accept everyone. [16:14] And that wasn't always true, but it was at least an ideal that people would pay lip service to. [16:19] And now I feel like that's changed. I feel like people don't want to even pay lip service to that. So [16:26] that's been a big difference. And I've seen through my mom's eyes, how her view of America has changed [16:34] over the last few years. When she first came here, she was sort of struck by the freedoms and [16:40] um, the lack of, you know, I mean, just that there was support for everything. [16:46] Yes. And then now she's, she's like, oh, they don't want us here. And I think to her that's, [16:52] she's very, very, um, tense and scared about all of it. And it's been, now it's going close to 10 years [16:59] that she's worried about this. So to me, that's what's really heartbreaking is that she's like, we [17:04] already left Pakistan. Where will we go now? They don't want us here here. And I can't be like, [17:10] no, they do because they don't. George, Donald Trump's policy on immigration [17:16] and border control. How would you describe it? Um, I would describe it as illustrating the hypocrisy [17:24] of democracy or what I call a conservative contradiction. Um, Donald Trump is a proud, [17:30] proud descendant of German immigrants. Um, a lot of the white conservatives, when guys like me start [17:35] talking about slavery and start talking about the, uh, how Africans were brought over here, [17:39] uh, forcefully, they love to lean back on some type of immigration, some type of immigrant status that [17:45] there people came into right now. We're seeing the contradiction in that because there's a very [17:49] racialized perspective they have when we start talking about immigrants that did not come from [17:54] Europe. So like they got, uh, in the video alluded to, there's been a lot of legislation in this country [17:58] that it's always racialized the concept of immigration going all the way back to the first policy that we [18:04] had about naturalized citizens that created quotas about different racial groups that can come in [18:08] and it cannot come in. Right now, however, we're seeing this rise of alt-right politics has made it [18:14] where the lip service we used to pay for or the idealistic, uh, the reality that allowed for all, [18:21] uh, all immigrants to come in. We see that's not really what's going on. The last thing I'll say is [18:25] this, uh, the creator of Fox News was a, uh, Australian immigrant. He also ran a whole bunch and owned a [18:32] whole bunch of media in Australia as well as the UK. He has been able to construct this master grand [18:39] criminalization narrative about immigrants. He too was an immigrant. When I say the hypocrisy of democracy [18:45] or the conservative contradiction, I'm illustrating this sensational on face value. You, you, you say [18:53] this is a country of immigrants and you show us images of Ellis Island. You don't show us images of [18:58] of Pakistanis. You don't show us images of West Africans or West Indies. You show us images of [19:04] good old Europeans fleeing persecution of their European leaders. Jonathan, I want to broaden it [19:10] out when we talk about research and polls. And for example, if Donald Trump sees these reports across [19:16] his desk where it says that support for him is dwindling, um, Americans are starting to question [19:22] whether what he is doing is right. Certainly a lot of people globally don't trust him to do the right [19:26] thing. Don't trust him not to lie. This is proven in polls. Do you think these polls have, it's a [19:33] difficult question, but I am going to ask you, do they have an impact? Do you think he's going to take [19:38] stock and be like, all right, I need to change something or is he just going to dismiss it as fake news? [19:46] I really can't predict on that front. I would just say that our mission is to inform, not to prescribe. [19:52] So, so we view surveys as giving a voice to people, giving a voice to publics around the world. [19:59] Uh, and then that information can then be used by policy makers, by civic leaders, by educators, [20:07] by people in the media, uh, by anyone in the public, uh, uh, to represent that voice of the people, [20:13] uh, and use it to, to inform sound decision-making. George, your reaction to that? And, and what do you [20:19] think Americans are going to do? I think patterns and trends show us that, uh, Donald Trump is very [20:28] unapologetic in what he's doing and how he's doing it. So I will answer the question as a definite note, [20:32] but shout out to him and being like, this is what the data say. I don't want to give my feelings, [20:35] emotions. I will give you those. The second thing I would say is that, uh, a lot of us Americans are [20:42] grappling with not being able to move backwards, or I say it better. A lot of us as Americans are [20:49] grappling with, even if we have an election in 2028, it might not be able to remedy the way that [20:55] Donald Trump has been able to cause destruction in the time he's been in office. Um, I know that [20:59] it's not just me as an American. I know it's not just Southern Americans. I know it's not just [21:03] Black Americans. A lot of Americans across, across party lines, across state lines are now grappling [21:09] with and thinking about how much can be repaired about, about America domestically and internationally [21:15] after Trump leaves office. And a lot of us are coming to very, you know, uh, ugly, pessimistic [21:21] conclusions or uncertainty. That's such a great point because it leads me exactly to a question [21:27] I wanted to ask. Once the reputation has been damaged or trust, let's say trust has been eroded, [21:34] which we see through these polls so much. I see you laughing at George. But Jonathan, I'm going to put this to you. [21:39] Can it be undone? We have seen it in the past. Yeah, we saw views of the U.S. and confidence in [21:48] President Bush decrease, uh, by the end of his second term and then rebound quite strongly under [21:54] President Obama. Uh, and then we saw, uh, at the beginning of President Biden's first term, uh, [22:00] views, views increase back up, uh, and then they eventually did gradually decrease over time. So it is, [22:06] it is something we've seen over the two decades plus we've been doing this, that the views do tend to [22:10] ebb and flow, uh, views of, of both American foreign policy as well as, uh, as we've talked [22:17] about, people around the world monitor closely what's going on domestically in the U.S., uh, [22:23] partisan conflicts are something that people are highly aware of, uh, and they reflect that in [22:27] our survey. Uh, but we do see these views ebb and flow, uh, significantly when, uh, presidents change, [22:34] when major events happen, uh, so, so we really can't say exactly, uh, what's going to happen when [22:42] we get new data back in just a couple of months. George, I'm going to give the final thought to [22:47] you. Do you think there is coming back from where the U.S. finds itself? And is there anything we've [22:52] missed in the show that you want to address that there's a glaring, you know, something we've, we've not [22:58] talked about? Like, for example, the Epstein files, like, we haven't mentioned that. Is that something that we [23:03] should still be talking about? It seems to have completely fallen off the media headlines. [23:07] Um, I think the Epstein files is one of the unique things that, uh, though I want to be careful on [23:13] trying to predict the future because I'm not a, you know, a person that can tell the future at all. [23:18] So I want to be respectful of what, what I'm saying bro was talking about in terms of not being able to [23:22] predict the future. But I do think that the Epstein files has caused a stir globally that allows for [23:29] Americans to see specifically that these folks been playing with us for a very long time when [23:33] it comes to social order, when it comes to upholding the law. We see that the same government that wants [23:38] to, uh, break up families, ambush people outside of courtrooms, go into churches and, you know, [23:45] abduct people in terms of ICE because they're not upholding the law is the same government that will [23:49] protect pedophiles and billionaires that, you know, going against the law. Uh, the thing I will also [23:54] say is that, uh, the sun used to set and rise on the British empire. A lot of us throughout the world, [24:01] we speak English as a result of British colonialism because they were so good at it. British is no [24:07] longer the empire that the sun set and rises on. Now we're seeing it's just a little old island that [24:12] can just be a part of global trade and commerce. I would argue that America is just heading down that [24:18] same road. And I think once we start to stretch what you can do domestically, because you have put all [24:24] your funds internationally, we know throughout the world history, we know that is the symptoms of a [24:30] declining empire. And because we in America, we don't even have, not only do we have health care, [24:36] we've been fighting to get a rise in the minimum wage. And Pete Hedzik in the, in, in, in, [24:42] in the department of war just asked for billions of more dollars. They tell us we can't get money to raise [24:46] them a wage or for health care. That is a symptom of a failing empire. And I think that the new [24:51] conferences, no pun intended, that everybody has, that more people in America is starting to gain. [24:56] Well, that is unfortunately all we have time for. George and Jonathan, thank you very much for [25:00] joining us here on the stream today. And thank you for watching from me and the entire stream team. I'll see you soon.