What's the fallout from the dispute between Trump and Pope Leo? — Inside Story

[0:00] Donald Trump in a war of words with the leader of the Roman Catholic Church. [0:05] The U.S. president refuses to apologize for criticizing Pope Leo's opposition to the Iran conflict. [0:11] He says the pontiff should stay out of American affairs. [0:14] So is this political interference or a moral duty to speak out? [0:19] And what are the consequences? [0:21] This is Inside Story. [0:39] Hello and welcome to the program. I'm Fully Batibo. [0:42] Leo, already fraught, the relationship between the United States and the Vatican is getting worse. [0:47] It's a result of an unusual public exchange between President Donald Trump and Pope Leo. [0:53] The leader of the Roman Catholic Church spoke out against the Iran war, drawing a backlash from the U.S. president. [0:59] But Pope Leo has remained defiant, saying he will continue to condemn the war and that he isn't afraid of the Trump administration. [1:06] Now, it's not the first time the White House has been on the receiving end of criticism from the Vatican. [1:12] We'll discuss the consequences of this rift with our guests in just a moment. [1:16] But first, this report by Imogen Kimber. [1:21] A war of words between Pope Leo, leader of the Roman Catholic Church, and Donald Trump, the U.S. president. [1:28] It seems to have started with these remarks. [1:30] The Pope was commenting about this post on social media. [1:51] Trump hit back. [1:52] Pope Leo said things that are wrong. [1:55] He was very much against what I'm doing with regard to Iran. [2:00] And you cannot have a nuclear Iran. [2:02] I think he's very weak on crime and other things. [2:05] So I'm not. [2:06] I mean, he went public. [2:08] And posted this image, widely interpreted as a depiction of himself as Jesus Christ. [2:14] It sparked a backlash among Catholics. [2:17] Trump maintained the AI-generated image was supposed to show him as a doctor, but unusually took down the post. [2:23] The Iranian president condemned what he called an insult. [2:29] And the Italian prime minister, who has close ties with Trump, called the remarks about the pontiff unacceptable. [2:37] Pope Leo responded, saying he's not afraid of the Trump administration. [2:56] Before being elected, the American-born cardinal had shared posts on social media criticizing the Trump administration, particularly its deportation campaign. [3:04] His predecessor called Trump's immigration policies a disgrace. [3:10] And other pontiffs have spoken out against former U.S. president's policies. [3:15] But this is the first public dispute. [3:18] Trump previously said it was a great honor to have a pope from the United States. [3:22] A sentiment, it seems, has changed. [3:25] Imogen Kimber, Al Jazeera, for Inside Story. [3:27] Let's bring in our guests now from New York. [3:35] We're joined by Cornel West, a philosopher, political activist, and former U.S. presidential candidate. [3:41] He's also a professor and Dietrich Bonhoeffer chair at the Union Theological Seminary. [3:46] Adolfo Franco is in Washington, D.C. [3:48] He's a U.S. Republican strategist, foreign policy analyst, and former surrogate for Donald Trump's presidential campaigns. [3:55] Also in New York, Christopher White, a Vatican journalist and author of the book, Pope Leo XIV, Inside the Conclave and the Dawn of a New Papacy. [4:05] A warm welcome to you all, gentlemen. [4:06] Thank you so much for joining us on Inside Story. [4:08] Professor Cornel West, let me start with you. [4:10] As a theologian, how do you view this row between the president and the pope? [4:15] Is this clash about religion versus politics or about ego versus principle? [4:23] No, I think it's far beyond ego. [4:24] I think it has to do with a pope that is trying to keep alive the prophetic legacy of Christianity. [4:32] Of course, for Catholics, it goes all the way back to 30 AD with St. Peter and then St. Linus. [4:38] And it has to do with a president, Brother Trump, who is a sign and symptom of a society that is suffering from spiritual sickness, [4:47] moral decrepitude, and political corruption, and thinks he can say and do anything and get away with it. [4:54] So it's a very important juxtaposition and contrast and clash because there's a sense in which the pope represents the prophetic element of both the American empire. [5:07] The American empire has already been complicitous with genocide in Gaza and the president calling for genocide in very precious Iranian and Persian society and so on. [5:16] But it's a crucial juxtaposition. [5:19] We can really see the differences between those who are concerned about love and justice as opposed to those who are concerned about hatred and revenge. [5:27] So Brother Trump, he's a slave to hatred. [5:30] Brother Trump is a slave to revenge. [5:33] Brother Trump is a slave to spectacle. [5:37] It's a sad thing. [5:38] But we need to see the juxtaposition in order to move on. [5:41] Adolfo Franco, your thoughts. [5:43] Why was the president so offended by the pope's remarks? [5:48] Well, that was a nice philosophical statement. [5:50] But let me think a little bit about more of the facts, in my opinion. [5:54] I think it's offended because it's been building for some time, including a 60 Minutes program that ran on Sunday with the most liberal, [6:03] three of the most liberal American cardinals that were really talking about policy issues. [6:07] There was a cardinal, I'll get to the pope here in a moment, Colonel Tobin talking about the mask issue, which people differ greatly about ICE agents. [6:15] And the pope, I think, backtracked a bit when he said, which I appreciated the comments, when he said, [6:20] I wasn't talking about foreign policy the way he would see it. [6:24] The problem is it was specific about specific policies in the United States when he said that things shouldn't be done by simply something, [6:34] a power that thinks it's omnipotent and that's able to do what it wants. [6:40] The problem the president has is these comments, I think, cross a line. [6:45] You know, since the professor mentioned the Bible, is when Christ said, render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, [6:52] he was responding to a question regarding tax policy and render unto God what is God's. [6:58] Now, obviously, popes are always going to be talking about peace and peacemaking and we want peace in the world. [7:04] But this is very different since the 1970s, where popes have been, particularly the last, this one, [7:11] and Pope Francis talking about specific policy, everything from climate change to immigration policies, [7:18] these are governmental decisions. [7:21] And I think the president who's been under sharp attack, and there have been memes about him that are awful, [7:26] not from the pope, obviously, but from politicians who repost and post the most horrific things about the president, [7:34] that creates, he's a human being, that creates a sharp reaction to any type of criticism. [7:40] I did not hear the pope condemn the atrocities in China about Muslims, organ transplants, the hanging of people in Iran. [7:51] I think that would have been probably appropriate as well. [7:55] Okay. I'll have Professor West respond to that in just a moment. [7:58] But Christopher, let me bring you into the conversation. [8:00] Do these comments cross the line, as Adolfo says there? [8:04] How unprecedented is this level of public hostility between a U.S. president and a pope, especially the first American pope? [8:15] Yeah, I think it's important to note that Pope Leo didn't start this fight. [8:18] I think what we've seen since the start of this war is the president and other administration officials [8:25] trying to use religious language and religious justification for the war. [8:29] And that's why Leo felt the need to respond and to make very clear that whatever language you want to try to use to justify this war, [8:38] you can't do so under religious terms. [8:40] It simply doesn't add up. [8:42] And I think what we've seen over the last year since Pope Leo was elected was that, you know, peace is what keeps him up at night. [8:49] He began his papacy on May 8th of last year using the word peace nine times in his opening address. [8:57] I think this is the issue that motivates him more than any issue in the world. [9:01] And to see the administration try to wage war under using religious language, I think, is a total affront to everything that he stands for. [9:10] And that's why I think the pope felt the need to speak out. [9:14] OK, Professor West, your thoughts about what was said there, especially by Adolfo, [9:18] when the pope talks about the war contradicting the gospel, is that a universal principle or selectively applied, as some of his critics have said? [9:30] Well, the pope himself, of course, comes from the rich legacy of St. Augustine. [9:35] St. Augustine did have a notion of just war. [9:37] He's right there in Africa at this very moment, trying to, in fact, express his solidarity with people who are suffering there. [9:45] I think Brother Adolfo's right, though. [9:47] I mean, the execution of innocent people in Iran and even the even the persecution of Christians there requires attention. [9:55] But you have to be morally consistent. [9:58] You have to be critical both of what's been going on in the United States, ice killing citizens, [10:04] what's been going on in Gaza, the genocide taking place, what's been called for in the United States, [10:11] what Trump himself and his policies have been doing. [10:14] But you've got to keep in mind, I mean, the first 35 popes, 31 of them were executed, 31 of them were martyrs. [10:20] The pope's office is known as the office of man of deep sorrow. [10:26] To follow Jesus is, in fact, to pick up your cross. [10:30] To follow Jesus means you will be undergoing character crucifixion, if not literal crucifixion. [10:37] So I like that about the pope. [10:39] His words and his witness are going to hold no matter what politicians say. [10:43] But we also recognize that the pope himself is not Jesus either. [10:48] Speaking of that, of being Jesus, Adolfo, President Trump posted after the pope's criticism, [10:55] he posted something on social media, which is since deleted, a post appearing to depict him as, you know, a Christlike image. [11:04] He's denied that that was his intention. [11:06] Why did he do that? [11:08] And how much damage does that cause him in the United States? [11:11] You know, do you foresee evangelical leaders eventually breaking ranks with him over this? [11:16] Because there was a great deal of criticism of that post. [11:21] If I may, I'm going to address that in a moment. [11:23] But let me say I agree with the two other guests in large part of what they've said. [11:27] But let me just say about what Christopher mentioned is, he's right. [11:32] This was not really started by the pope directly as much. [11:36] There's an expression in American baseball called, you don't have to swing at every pitch. [11:41] And President Trump probably, if I would have been advising, would not have responded to Pope Leo in that regard. [11:47] And secondly, absolutely right about, Cornell's right about what this is, popes should be speaking about peace and have in generally and against war. [12:00] And he's right. [12:01] It should be applied consistently. [12:03] That's the president's, I think, chief concern. [12:06] That does not come through. [12:07] It does not come through to me. [12:08] I am a Roman Catholic and I'm a great admirer of Pope Leo. [12:11] Let me state that. [12:12] But I do believe that in recent times, they have become involved in secular political issues with specificity that I don't think are justified or warranted. [12:23] Now, to answer your question directly about the image, obviously, that was bad judgment. [12:30] How often does President Trump take down a post? [12:34] It's not frequent. [12:35] Now, it was explained away by the vice president and the president as misinterpreted it. [12:40] I don't think most people buy that. [12:41] But I don't think, I don't think in the long run, American voters, he won 54% of the Catholic vote. [12:50] I don't think American voters are going to decide this. [12:52] This is a one-week story at most. [12:56] I don't think people are going to decide the election is going to lose support because of this or lack thereof. [13:00] Christopher, do you agree with that? [13:01] You mentioned quickly the evangelicals. [13:02] Yeah. [13:03] Okay, finish your thought. [13:04] Finish your thought, please. [13:06] Yeah. [13:07] Franklin Graham, who's highly respected, America is mostly Protestant, not a Catholic country. [13:12] Franklin Graham, Billy Graham's son, has prayed for victory in Iran. [13:17] Evangelicals and conservative Christians have a very different view than Pope Leo, and they make up the majority of the country. [13:23] All right. [13:23] Christopher, your thoughts about that? [13:26] Adolfo says that this image that the president put up and then later deleted is not going to cause any damage, and that evangelicals are still, you know, fully supporting him. [13:36] Is that the case? [13:38] Yeah, I think he's probably right that it may be a one-week story, but it does, you know, point to the fact that this is a weakening of the relationship between the Vatican and the United States, and it comes at a time in which, you know, the United States has two very important Americans on the world stage. [13:54] One is the president and one is the pope, and the fact just remains that they have very different visions of the world and very different operating styles, and I think that's why this conflict almost seemed inevitable. [14:08] I think there's a bit of irony here to sort of claim that the president or the pope shouldn't be engaging in this sort of specific sort of pleas against the war. [14:18] You know, Vice President Vance last night made this same claim on Fox News, saying that he needs to stick to other matters. [14:25] Yet a year ago, he was talking about how he was grateful that Pope John Paul II used his voice to try to urge the U.S. not to go to war with Iraq in the early 2000s. [14:35] So I do think there is a double standard here. [14:38] Right. [14:38] Professor West, your thoughts about that, that double standard, and also, interestingly, the kind of religious interest in the U.S. [14:45] has been elevated through the lens of this Iran war because a lot of the descriptions, especially from the so-called secretary of war, Pete Hectus, have, you know, described this war as some sort of crusade, right? [14:59] So how does that resonate with Americans? [15:01] And do you see the president's comments and the picture he posted doing him damage among, you know, the Catholics and evangelicals in the U.S.? [15:12] You know, it's hard to predict. [15:13] It really is. [15:14] But I think we ought to be very clear, and here I'm just trying to speak out of the black Christian prophetic tradition of Martin King and Fannie Lou Hamer, [15:21] that there's always a very deep tension between bearing the cross and waving the flag. [15:27] The cross is over every flag. [15:32] Every flag is under the cross for Christians like myself. [15:35] When that flag representing a nation conforms to the kind of unarmed truth and unconditional love represented by the cross when a Palestinian Jew named Jesus died on that cross and whose blood at the bottom of that cross has salvific power, then that nation must be criticized. [15:57] When the nation does, in fact, aspire to it, the nation is to be affirmed, is headed toward truth, is headed toward justice. [16:06] The problem with Brother Trump is that he's primarily obsessed with the hatred and the revenge. [16:14] I don't see a lot of love in him. [16:16] I don't see a lot of concern about justice or the least of these. [16:20] In the 25th chapter of Matthew, that's all that Pope Leo is talking about, and he's absolutely right. [16:26] But he says it in love, and we have to say it in love. [16:29] All right, Adolfo, your response. [16:30] Professor West says President Trump is about hatred and about revenge. [16:37] Well, I think—well, I disagree. [16:40] I think it was hatred and about revenge is the Iranian dictatorship, which is ironic, praising the Pope, and the Pope didn't reject those comments he should have praised from the Iranian regime. [16:52] He should have responded, saying, thank you for the comments, but stop hanging 160 people publicly, including young people, and slaughtering 45,000, and calling for death to America, death to Israel, and a jihad against the infidel. [17:07] I don't see a lot of comments on the Pope in that regard. [17:11] That's constant and going on. [17:13] So it's selective outrage. [17:16] And it's, of course, always directed toward the West or democracies. [17:20] So I think the hate is in the terrorist regime in Iran. [17:23] And again, they've been spared any of this, as other places in the world where our trial-seaters are going on. [17:30] But, you know, Christopher mentioned comments about inconsistency. [17:35] Yes, of course, this is called politicians. [17:37] This happens all the time. [17:39] Senator Schumer had a fiery speech in 2015 denouncing and voting against the Iranian deal, which she now supports with President Obama. [17:49] So, you know, this is consistent. [17:52] I don't disagree with that. [17:54] It was in our interest to use John Paul's anti-communist crusade. [17:58] And that's a true statement. [17:59] Christopher, your response. [18:00] Let's talk a little bit about, again, but can I say something quickly? [18:03] There is a sort of hypocrisy here because the church is human beings. [18:10] Pope Leo is not a saint and he's not Christ. [18:13] The Catholic Church in China gets clearance on the clerics it elevates now to become cardinals. [18:20] Those are communists cleared. [18:22] Is that consistent? [18:23] Is that human rights? [18:25] Is that love? [18:26] Let's allow Christopher to respond. [18:27] That's political. [18:28] Christopher, go ahead. [18:30] Yeah, I just want to offer a point of clarification in that the Pope isn't trying to be some cheerleader for the Iranian regime. [18:37] You know, contrary to what the president has said, actually, it's the Catholic Church that teaches, you know, and made explicit by Pope Francis and now Pope Leo, that the Catholic Church doesn't just believe that it's immoral to use nuclear weapons. [18:50] The Catholic Church teaches that it's immoral to have nuclear weapons. [18:53] So it's not as if the Pope is positioning himself as some great defender of the Iranian regime and its nuclear ambition. [19:01] So I think that's an important part of the conversation that's gone missing. [19:05] Okay. Now, let me just ask you, Christopher, about this, you know, about President Trump. [19:11] Initially, he hailed Pope Leo's election as a great honor for America. [19:16] But now he says that if it wasn't for him, if he wasn't in the White House, then Leo wouldn't be in the Vatican. [19:22] What do you make of that? [19:23] And is there any truth to that? [19:25] Look, on one hand, many of the cardinals that I spoke with after the conclave wanted to make sure it was understood that the conclave was not some continuation of the American election cycle. [19:37] But they also said that, look, at a time in which America is sort of becoming more isolationist and sort of reversing its commitment to multilateralism, to have an American as Pope who stands for those ideals, that was very attractive to a lot of the men that went into the conclave last May. [19:56] So certainly to have an American, Robert Prevost and El Poplio XIV, who believes that America should have a place in the world working with partners, deeply committed to sort of the sort of post-Second World War, you know, human rights project and this sort of larger commitment to multilateralism. [20:15] Absolutely. That was attractive to them. [20:16] OK, Professor West, you're fast. Do you think this rift can be repaired or are we seeing a permanent realignment between traditional religious authority and Trumpism? [20:30] No, I think that the conflicts are deep. The tensions are deep. I don't think they will go away at all. [20:34] But most importantly, what we need more than anything else is what 12th chapter of Hebrews is all about, which is a cloud of witnesses who are willing to be truth tellers and justice seekers in a consistent way. [20:44] When Brother Adolfo talks about the hatred of the Iranian elite vis-a-vis Iranian people, he's absolutely right. [20:51] The killings, those are immoral. The hatred of the Israeli elites, of Palestinians, that's wrong. [20:58] That's morally consistent. But to say that Trump himself has not put out various statements where black presidents and their wives are apes who himself explicitly says, [21:08] I love the hate at Charlie Kirk's funeral. Let's be morally consistent. Hatred is hatred, no matter what. Revenge is revenge. [21:19] Love and justice is love and justice, especially if you're a follower of Jesus of Nazareth. [21:25] All right. Your response, Adolfo, to that and also the same question to you. Can this rift be repaired? [21:30] Yes, of course, it can be repaired and it will be repaired in all likelihood. [21:38] But evangelical donors are said to be deeply disturbed by all of this, Adolfo. [21:43] I don't know how many political obituaries I've read about President Trump over incidents since 2015, actually, and they've all proven wrong. [21:53] And I'd like you to invite me back when this one is as well. That's my answer to that. [21:57] But quickly on these comments that have been made, number one on this is the fact of the matter is that, yes, of course, [22:08] who can disagree with what Professor West said about complete love and so forth for everyone? [22:15] We live in a real world of tension and geopolitics, and that is what is why the government and policies should not be something other than specifics, [22:23] shouldn't be something that the church should be involved in, just the message of general peace and not and not be embroiled in things like whether ICE agents should have masks. [22:33] That wasn't the pope, but it was a cardinal. You know, the thing about this is, with all due respect, how many how many people listen to the pope? [22:41] Are Catholics using artificial means of birth control? Are they mostly pro-choice? [22:47] At the end of the day, this is selective. When you use the pope, as Christopher said, sometimes when it's the benefit of the administration and sometimes critically. [22:56] At the end of the day, with all due respect, as much as I admire the pope, I don't think most people pay attention to what he says in terms of specifics. [23:07] If not, they wouldn't be using birth control, which is against church law. [23:11] Do you agree with that, Christopher? I mean, how many people, as Adolfo asks there, listen to the pope? [23:16] And do you see a long-term damage to U.S. Catholic unity or Vatican influence in America? [23:24] Well, I can tell you who does listen to the pope, and that's the president of the United States. That's why he's responding to him. [23:29] Look, the pope has 1.4 billion Catholics around the world, 60 million in this country. [23:35] And so, he is the spiritual leader. And so, to try to silence his efforts to speak to these issues, I think, is a real betrayal of America's fundamental freedom and commitment to religious liberty. [23:46] That being said, of course, there's dissent on particular issues. That's no surprise here. [23:53] But there are, of course, as Adolfo mentioned, ups and downs in Vatican-U.S. relations. [23:58] The Vatican's general disposition is to sort of look for areas of agreement, not to sort of focus on conflict. [24:05] So, I think, you know, if the administration is wise, they will pivot to areas where there is commonality, where there is shared work to be done together, and use this as a reset moment. [24:17] But that reset will not be possible if the president wants to try to threaten or undermine the pope's ability to speak to moral situations in the world. [24:26] Adolfo Franco, what do you respond to that? [24:30] Well, I don't know where Christopher got silencing. [24:32] Where has the president said the pope has to be silenced? [24:36] He just responded. [24:38] Doesn't he have a right to also have his opinion? [24:40] Is the pope trying to silence the president? [24:43] Of course. [24:43] That would be ludicrous. [24:44] But my point is, I don't know where you got the word silence. [24:47] I have never said that. [24:48] The president never said that. [24:50] The fact of the matter is, they can have a difference of opinion, but I never heard silence or so forth. [24:57] I stick with what I've said. [24:58] I don't know how many people are going to be looking to Pope Leo for positions on immigration policy, border control, frankly, the war in Iran, any more than they do on abortion, birth control, or anything else. [25:12] I just don't see it. [25:13] Okay, Christopher, briefly your response. [25:14] By the way, President Trump won 54% of the Catholic vote. [25:18] Okay, Christopher, your response. [25:20] And do you see that win that President Trump had with the Catholics in the previous election? [25:26] Do you see that being sustained? [25:29] Oh, I mean, undoubtedly, President Trump carried the Catholic vote. [25:32] But I do think many of the Catholics, as we saw in just the past 48 hours, have said, this is not the person we voted for. [25:39] There's a general disgust at the way he's treated Catholics and religious people across the board. [25:44] I mean, we saw with this image just widespread backlash among not just the left, but the far right appalled by this. [25:51] But it's no secret the president is not a deeply, a deep man of faith. [25:55] It doesn't take an art historian to tell you what the president was trying to do with that image on Sunday night. [25:59] All right. [25:59] Professor West, I'll give you the final word. [26:01] What do you see as a long-term damage to such a rift in America? [26:08] Well, I think that part of the problem is, and here I want to really go at my dear brother Adolfo here, [26:15] because, I mean, on the one hand, you said you admire the Pope. [26:18] On the other hand, you say nobody really listens to the Pope. [26:22] On the one hand, you talk about, of course, we must talk about peace, love, and justice. [26:25] But you got a president who is clear about his concern of hatred and revenge. [26:31] And it is those who rationalize and justify hatred and revenge in the language and deeds of a president or anybody else who are as responsible for the spiritual bankruptcy as the president himself. [26:46] And so, in that regard, we've got to declash. [26:50] And in the end, if we don't come to terms with truth-seeking and justice-seeking, the country's going to slide down a slippery slope to chaos. [27:00] Let's just be honest about it. [27:02] Okay, gentlemen, thank you so much for a very fascinating discussion. [27:05] Thank you for joining us today on Al Jazeera. [27:08] Professor Cornel West, Adolfo Franco, and Christopher White, thank you to all three of you. [27:13] And you can watch this program again anytime by visiting our website at aljazeera.com. [27:20] For further discussion, go to our Facebook page. [27:23] That's facebook.com forward slash AJ Inside Story. [27:25] You can also join the conversation on X. [27:28] Our handle is at AJ Inside Story. [27:30] From me, Fuli, Batibu, and the whole team, thanks for watching. [27:33] Bye for now.