What now for Kanye West? — The Global Story

[0:00] Kanye West has been banned from visiting the UK to perform. [0:04] Given his history of anti-Semitic remarks and behaviour, [0:08] why is this decision dividing people? [0:10] West was due to visit the UK this summer to perform at a festival [0:14] until the UK government intervened, [0:16] saying his presence in the country would, quote, [0:19] not be conducive to the public good. [0:21] West has apologised for his behaviour multiple times [0:25] and blamed his bipolar disorder. [0:27] But what does his continued popularity tell us about [0:31] how mainstream anti-Semitism has become? [0:34] This is The Global Story on YouTube. [0:42] Well, I'm very pleased to say that, [0:45] to help us decipher this very complex story, [0:49] we're joined from Manchester by Anoushka Mutanda-Doughty, [0:53] the BBC's host of Fame Under Fire podcast, [0:57] and my mentor for all things pop culture and youth culture. [1:04] Anoushka, I'm hoping you can help me understand what's going on, please. [1:08] Well, I mean, trying to decipher the world of Kanye. [1:11] Are we calling him Kanye or are we going to call him Ye? [1:13] He prefers Ye. [1:15] That was going to be my first question. [1:16] What is the correct thing and how are we going to proceed? [1:18] I think we should go with Kanye, [1:20] because I think that's what most people know him as. [1:21] So Anoushka, this week we've learned that Kanye West [1:28] has been banned from visiting the United Kingdom [1:31] in a somewhat dramatic decision by the UK government. [1:35] Tell us what led up to this. [1:37] A few weeks ago, it was leaked online that Kanye was going to headline [1:41] a festival called Wireless, a wireless festival in the UK. [1:44] It's known for having a lot of rap artists that perform there. [1:48] And some people say it's the only real festival that caters to that market in the UK. [1:53] So that was leaked online and it was circulated by a lot of the blogs. [1:56] And it was circulated to quite positive reception. [1:59] A lot of the comments were like, you can't cancel Kanye. [2:02] This is amazing. [2:03] Well done to wireless for standing up to cancel culture. [2:06] And then this week on the 30th of March, [2:07] it was announced that he would be headlining three nights. [2:10] So headlining every single day at wireless. [2:12] But then the sponsors start pulling out. [2:15] We've got Pepsi, which is the biggest sponsor of wireless. [2:17] Diageo pulled out. [2:19] And then there is a public call for why is he headlining at wireless? [2:23] Why have they done this? [2:24] It's disrespectful to the Jewish community. [2:26] It's disrespectful to the African-American community, [2:28] who Kanye has also said made derogatory comments about. [2:31] It's disrespectful to women. [2:33] But the loudest sort of cry was he's been repeatedly anti-Semitic. [2:36] He said outrageous things. [2:39] Why was he chosen to headline wireless? [2:41] And then the man who organizes wireless, [2:44] his creator came out and defended that and asked, you know, [2:47] please find forgiveness for Kanye. [2:49] So they actually backed him. [2:50] But then eventually it was said online that the government [2:53] were reviewing whether he'd be allowed to come into the UK. [2:56] And then pretty quickly it was actually he's not. [2:58] His request has been denied. [2:59] When did the anti-Semitism accusations against him first begin? [3:05] There were sporadic demonstrations of what you could say negative stereotypes about Jewish people in his music. [3:15] In 2005, in a freestyle, he rapped, I'm tight with my dough, like my family Jews. [3:20] And that was seen as, you know, perpetuating a negative stereotype about the Jewish community. [3:25] There were reports that surfaced that in an interview in 2018 with TMZ, [3:29] he reportedly made pro-Nazi comments that were edited out. [3:32] So we've had accusations peppered throughout his career. [3:35] But in 2022, a spree of tweets, he woke up, he says, [3:41] I woke up, I'm a bit sleepy tonight, but when I wake up, I'm going death-con-free on Jewish people. [3:45] He started to praise Hitler and say that he admired Hitler. [3:49] It started creeping its way into more of his social media posts. [3:52] I do have to say a lot of this commentary that he was making, a lot of these anti-Semitic remarks were [3:57] alongside other remarks that were offensive against other groups. [4:00] He has been repeatedly misogynistic and encouraged sexual violence on multiple accounts. [4:07] So we start to see this behavior, these frankly unbelievable tweets that are coming out in 2022. [4:14] Then in 2023, he apologizes and then he does it again. [4:19] What was the context of that apology? [4:21] So a lot of people have viewed it as him doing damage control because he was dropped by Adidas. [4:26] If you remember, he did Yeezy with Adidas. [4:28] He had some very successful launches of trainers. [4:31] He was dropped from higher end brands like Balenciaga. [4:35] He had his Twitter account revoked by Elon Musk, who said that he was violating their policy. [4:41] So it started to affect Kanye's business. [4:44] And then in 2023, he made this completely weird remark that watching Jonah Hill in 21 Jump Street, [4:51] quote, made him like Jewish people again, which some people think constitutes an apology. [4:56] I think the Jewish community will probably say that it does not. [4:59] But there was an element of damage control. [5:01] And then in, I mean, in 2025, it goes beyond that. [5:05] He releases a song. [5:07] I'm going to warn people now because obviously the title is inflammatory and offensive, [5:11] but he releases a song called Heil Hitler with the repeated lyric over and over. [5:15] I'm not going to keep saying it, but repeated over and over again. [5:18] That's released by his own platform. [5:20] So that's not through a label or a distribution service, but he just doubles down. [5:25] And it's it's when you're when you look at it in in a timeline, you're just like, what is happening here? [5:30] Because what was the reception when he released that song? [5:36] It's really difficult with Kanye because you're always going to have a group of people who were like, [5:40] this is this is atrocious and the voice of reason that I cannot believe this is the space that we're [5:45] in, that somebody is doing this and hasn't been completely ostracized. [5:49] But when Kanye does these things, it's imbued with an air of I really don't want to say humor, [5:56] but it is received online by a rather large community as this is funny. [6:03] And once you make something funny, you make something forgivable. [6:07] And that's what has happened. [6:09] Um, Kanye is humorous. [6:11] That's why people like him. [6:13] They always liked him for his humor. [6:14] He was a witty rapper. [6:16] He was known for saying things that other people wouldn't say. [6:18] I'll refer you back to George Bush doesn't care about black people after critique after Katrina. [6:24] Um, that's what people liked him for. [6:26] And he's taken that personality, applied it to these horrific statements, [6:31] and people have run with it as memes. [6:34] And like I said, when you are laughing, you are forgiving. [6:38] Look at what Kanye has done. [6:39] This song is jokes. [6:40] I can't believe he's done this. [6:41] You can't cancel Kanye. [6:43] And it starts to become almost a caricature of what it looks like to be canceled. [6:48] And it's this returning joke of like, you just can't cancel this guy because he will just say [6:53] something more inflammatory, more racist, more xenophobic next week. [6:58] And then he'll make it into a song and then he'll make it into merch. [7:01] You create an atmosphere online where it's like, well, really, what can't he say or do? [7:06] And he makes a number of appearances, doesn't he? [7:08] On, um, controversial right wing talk shows, right? [7:13] Yeah. [7:13] So Kanye turns up on Alex Jones's podcast and he's wearing a, it almost looks like he's got a pair of [7:20] black tights and put it over his face. [7:21] I'm sure Kanye would like me to talk about it as high fashion, but that is what it looks like to me. [7:26] Um, and he's wearing a camouflage biker jacket on top of that. [7:30] He's known for looking ridiculous and claiming it's fashion. [7:32] So that wasn't crazy for him to turn up looking like that. [7:35] But then when the podcast got going, he started to say things like, I see good things about Hitler. [7:40] He has made comments like this before, but once again, it was an example of him, [7:45] not just saying, making antisemitic comments, but aligning himself with Hitler. [7:50] I mean, one of the things that struck me about that was even Alex Jones, who is no stranger to [7:55] extreme pronouncements seemed, um, I wouldn't say shocked, but maybe uncomfortable at the things, [8:02] that Kanye West was saying on the set of his show. [8:05] I mean, this is the thing, Kanye aligned himself after he came out in support of Trump in 2016. [8:11] He aligned himself quite heavily with Candace Owens, who is a right wing political commentator. [8:16] So he very much was existing in that world of right wing influences, uh, commentators, [8:21] however you want to see them. [8:23] But then you get to the point where Kanye starts saying things that make them feel uncomfortable. [8:27] And Candace Owens also came out and distanced herself from some of those comments by saying, [8:31] you know, we need, we need to talk about his mental health. [8:33] And it became talking about Kanye's mental health. [8:35] And that was an explanation for what he was doing, but these comments have been repeated [8:39] and they've also been apologized for and then doubled down on and done again. [8:43] So he says that on the Alex Jones podcast, but then he also releases a line of merch [8:48] with a swastika on a t-shirt, which is, I mean, how much more offensive does it get? [8:54] So when does he start selling swastika t-shirts in Oshka? [8:57] Yeah. [8:57] So what happens is Kanye does an advert at the Superbowl. [9:01] Now ad space at the Superbowl is highly coveted because it's one of, [9:05] if not the most watched sports game in the US. [9:09] Kanye takes out his own ad at the Superbowl for his brand. [9:12] And then when you click onto his website, the only piece of merch he was selling was [9:17] a t-shirt with a swastika on it. [9:18] And that was in 2025, in February, 2025. [9:21] And once again, yes, there's uproar in the mainstream media, but in another world, [9:27] in another sphere on social media, on Reddit pages, a lot of it is making light of it. [9:33] It's funny. [9:34] Look at what Kanye has done now. [9:35] He has such a huge fan base. [9:38] It's been likened to a cult by some critics of Kanye. [9:42] You know, he called himself Yeezus, that he just seems to get away with it. [9:48] But the pattern seems to be that when it starts to threaten his earning potential and his brand [9:54] deals, he comes out and tries to do some form of damage control. [9:57] Okay, well, explain how he tries to control the damage then. [10:02] So people have been saying that this year was the redemption arc for Kanye West. [10:07] This was his comeback where he was going to make amends. [10:10] So Kanye publicly says that he wants to sit down with leaders in the Jewish community. [10:14] And then he does sit down with a rabbi. [10:15] And he explains what he feels as an explanation for his actions was that he has bipolar disorder, [10:21] which is something he's spoken about before, but also denied as well. [10:25] But he seems at this point to be reconciling with the fact that he was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. [10:30] And this is the reason for, I don't want to call them outbursts, because I think that minimizes [10:34] what was said, but it was the reason for the anti-Semitic remarks that he's made. [10:40] Okay. [10:40] And then he makes a second apology, right? [10:43] What happened there? [10:44] Yeah. [10:44] So in the Wall Street Journal, he takes out an ad space and releases a written statement saying to [10:52] those I've heard, which is essentially an apology to both the Jewish community and the African-American [10:57] community who he says were always his home. [11:00] And he's going to find his way back to them. [11:02] He was also involved in a car crash, very famous car crash that he says has had [11:07] lasting impacts on him. [11:08] And this was basically a result of him being unmedicated and refusing, refusing to come to [11:14] terms with his bipolar disorder diagnosis. [11:16] And this led to him basically being in a four month manic episode, he says, where he wrote all [11:22] these tweets, where he made this song, where he sold these t-shirts and he apologizes and he asks [11:29] for time to earn your forgiveness, re-earn forgiveness and re-earn respect. [11:33] Now, what was going on behind the scenes was Kanye was looking for a distributor to release his album, [11:39] Bully, long anticipated album where the release date kept changing. [11:43] And he actually ends up in a partnership signing a deal with Gamma. [11:47] Now Gamma is a record label. [11:49] Yeah. Gamma is a company founded by former Apple music executive Larry Jackson. [11:54] The reports were that they spoke to Jewish members of staff at Gamma. [11:58] They consulted them before they entered into this partnership with him. [12:02] And it was also hinging on him making these public apologies, these public statements. [12:07] So from a very cynical perspective, the critique has been made that this is just to get this album [12:13] out so he can continue to make his money and his business can continue to function. [12:18] If you take Kanye's side of it, this is a man who has been dealing with [12:21] a bipolar disorder, refusing to be medicated. [12:24] Okay. [12:25] So he introduces in this Wall Street Journal full page apology and also in his conversation [12:32] with the rabbi, the idea that his behavior may be down to his bipolar condition. [12:41] Now, neither you nor I are trained psychologists, Anushka, but we've been doing a bit of reading [12:48] around on this topic. And it does seem that there are divergent opinions on the idea of [12:56] how strong this defense might be. So some psychologists say that unmanaged mental health, [13:04] unmanaged mental health conditions can cause people to act in seemingly uncharacteristic ways. [13:10] It can cause extreme behavior. And there are other experts who say that that's not the case. [13:16] But is this question something that's dividing fans? What are people saying online about it? [13:21] Yeah, I mean, absolutely. It's important to remember that there's been contradictory statements [13:28] made by Kanye about his diagnosis with bipolar. So in 2016, it was reported that he'd been diagnosed [13:35] with bipolar. But in early 2025, he was in a podcast and he said, I was misdiagnosed with bipolar. [13:42] I'm actually autistic. Then there were multiple statements that he made where he claims he was [13:46] misdiagnosed. But he was basically saying that he was being purposefully misdiagnosed [13:51] by doctors from the Jewish community as part of a secret ploy to keep him quiet. [13:56] And then once again, like you say, he has this conversation with the rabbi and he's back to [14:00] saying I have bipolar disorder and he's asking for grace and space and kindness. And then there's this [14:06] Wall Street Journal ad. He's doing the same thing. So it's very confusing for diehard fans of Kanye [14:12] who are hanging on his every word. Do you have bipolar or do you not have bipolar? Because you've [14:16] come out and said it before and then you've backtracked. Now, a lot of people online are [14:21] saying he's also saying other things that are leading to basically the destruction of his life, [14:26] his relationship with the mother of his children, his access to his kids. This is all widely and [14:31] publicly documented. This has been going on alongside those anti-Semitic remarks. And they're saying it all [14:36] speaks to a broader picture that Kanye really does have genuine mental health struggles and he needs [14:43] to be protected. And those people who are saying that are saying, why on earth did Wireless book him [14:50] as the headline performer for a three day festival? This is not a man who went away for five years, [14:55] has come to terms with his mental health struggles, has come to terms with what medication he needs to [14:59] be on, is speaking to psychologists, has mended his relationship with his family, has mended his [15:03] relationship with his fans, with his community. This is somebody who asked for grace and space and [15:08] to find his way home in 2025. It's irresponsible for the festival to book him and they did it because [15:14] they know they're going to get maximum publicity and maximum headlines. That's one camp of his fans [15:21] and other people are saying, we just do not buy this. He's apologized before, he re-secures the [15:26] distribution deals, he re-secures the brand deals, people feel sorry for him and then he comes out [15:31] and if it's not antisemitic remarks, it's something else. It's blatant misogyny, it's racism. I mean, [15:38] those are the two camps and they're going back and forth, but I will say there has been a pretty [15:43] forgiving response online to Kanye West. If you or I or most people that we knew said enormously [15:51] offensive and antisemitic things, we would be ostracized in society, roundly criticized and rightly so. [16:01] It seems like somehow Kanye West is an exception. What have the consequences been for him [16:10] for the things he said and done? Well, if you'd have asked me that two weeks [16:15] ago and I've had a different answer, but what's happened with Wireless and him being denied entry [16:20] into the UK is probably the clearest, strongest and loudest piece of backlash that he's faced [16:28] in the way he's been held accountable. Now we can get into whether that should have happened and the [16:34] reaction to that on social media and the reaction from his fans, but that is the first time in a [16:40] long while that we've seen somebody vocally say, you are going to be held accountable for what you've [16:46] tweeted, for the song you've made, for the t-shirts that you've put out. It's led to the cancellation [16:52] of the festival. Like I said, if you asked me this before all of that happened, I would have said that [16:56] Kanye exists in a space in our culture where he's almost uncancellable, but I still think he's [17:02] uncancellable because that's happened. And a lot of people are commenting, you know, how can you do this? [17:08] You're trying to, you're trying to censor him. He has a right to free speech. He has a right to [17:11] artistic expression. You need to show him grace. He's come out and spoken publicly about his mental [17:16] health as a man. That's really, that's a very difficult thing to do as, especially as a black [17:21] man and a black male rapper, he's, he's shown his vulnerability and your response is to say, [17:25] you're denied access to the country and we're going to show you no grace. I think he's uncancellable. [17:31] I actually do think he has crafted a, a perfect defense for himself. [17:35] Um, so how much does it actually mean for him financially to not be allowed into the UK to perform at [17:42] this festival? So we don't know what deal he'd entered into with wireless. We do know that he [17:47] had another gig that was lined up in London. That's now also had to be canceled. Obviously [17:51] the UK is a massive market for Kanye West and him being able to perform here would have in a lot [17:57] of his fans' minds been the pinnacle of his redemption arc. He hasn't performed in the UK for [18:03] many, many years and it would have spoke to a comeback for Kanye West, which is really, realistically, [18:09] financially, what, what he needs. He's gone into that distribution deal with Gamma. He needs to make [18:14] money. He's lost a lot of his sponsorship. He's lost his brand partnerships. And also, which a lot [18:19] of people are not reporting on, he is facing multiple civil lawsuits in the US, all of which [18:25] count for multi, multi, if, if they're all granted, if all of the claimants win, we're talking millions of [18:31] dollars that he will have to pay out. So financially, he's an actually quite a difficult position. You've got to [18:36] remember he's also not no longer married to a billionaire who can help bail him out, as Kim [18:41] Kardashian has done in the past. I think she gave him 35 million dollars when he was in debt with Yeezy. [18:47] Bianca Sensori does not have that kind of money. I'm not saying Kanye doesn't have a dime to his name, [18:52] but this is a financially difficult year for him and he has already lost one of those civil lawsuits where [18:58] he's had to pay out to a construction worker who was working on one of his properties. He's already lost [19:03] one and he is facing more serious ones as the year progresses. So whilst him not being able [19:11] to headline at wireless probably hasn't dented his pockets that much, it kind of puts a stop to that [19:17] redemption arc. It gives a stop to the apology tour of Kanye West, which can provide a stop to future [19:23] potential earnings. He needs those earnings going forward. Yeah. I mean, he has to keep performing [19:29] from what you're saying because of the future financial burdens he might face. And he is still [19:36] performing. Just last week he performed in Los Angeles to tens of thousands of people who were [19:41] prepared to pay money to come and see him in spite of all the things that he said. Is that a sign, [19:49] Anushka, that anti-Semitism in society is something that is tolerated now in some sectors at least? [19:57] There are figures, Anushka, there are figures. So a huge rise in anti-Semitic attacks in the United [20:03] States over the last five years. The UK government figures suggest a 150% increase almost in anti-Semitic [20:14] attacks in 2023 alone. Jewish groups in Britain have said they didn't want him to perform in the UK. [20:24] The campaign against anti-Semitism has said Mr. West has previously made apologies right before [20:31] album releases and concert tours and then retracted the apology and reverted to type. Is Kanye West [20:40] profiting from anti-Semitism? I think Kanye West has been profiting off of the culture's willingness to [20:51] forgive him for being an anti-Semite, for being a misogynist, for being racist. One of the last [20:58] things you said about reverting to type, working its way through the court system, as I keep saying, [21:03] multiple pieces of civil litigation and one of the defenses that is being used by his lawyers, [21:08] this is this year being in multiple cases, is that Kanye's whole life is performance art. Kanye cannot be [21:16] held responsible for anything he said because it's an extended version of performance art and that [21:20] extends to his anti-Semitic remarks. That is not him taking responsibility and accountability and [21:26] saying, I take accountability, please give me space because I have bipolar and I want to earn your [21:31] forgiveness and your trust back. That's saying, yeah, I said it, but it's art. It's provocative. [21:37] And I want to read you this direct quote. This is speaking to a lawsuit where one of the people [21:45] who worked for him is saying that she heard anti-Semitic comments, that she was victimized [21:50] personally by Kanye West. He says the communications she challenges, his lawyer's writing this, [21:54] were creative directives, conceptual drafts, provocative imagery, marketing strategy and [21:59] staffing decisions, shaping a public facing message. They were not collateral to Ye's art, [22:06] they were part of its development. Now it goes on to say, Ye is not merely a creator, he is art. [22:11] Ye's public and private personas form a continuous provocative performance that challenges societal [22:17] taboos surrounding race, religion, gender, power, politics and censorship. That is not taking [22:23] accountability for anti-Semitic comments. So you've got two conflicting messages, one in what he said in [22:29] the Wall Street Journal, what he said to leaders in the Jewish community and one that's making its way [22:33] through the courts. And because people will not report on what is happening in the court system, [22:36] because nobody cares. I think a lot of the meme-ification of what Kanye has said about [22:43] the Jewish community, his overtly anti-Semitic remarks have been turned into humorous tidbits [22:49] on the internet. And when you try and talk to publications and say, do you know about this [22:55] lawsuit? Are you going to report on this? They say, everybody knows Kanye is a bad guy. No one's going to [23:01] be interested in that. So he has crafted, I don't know if it's intentional. I don't know if it's a, [23:06] it's a, you know, he's saying that this is because of his mental illness. Okay. Because of his bipolar. [23:12] But there is the perfect defense against any crime because people won't pay attention and take it [23:18] seriously. Because Kanye is always doing something bad. He's always saying something outrageous. And it [23:24] is infuriating when you are trying to cover him and say, actually, there are people out there who say [23:30] they have been genuinely victimized by this man, genuinely victimized. That was Anushka Mutanda [23:36] Doughty, host of the BBC's Fame Under Fire podcast. In a statement, Wireless Festival said it was [23:42] cancelled and refunds would be issued to all ticket holders. It added that multiple stakeholders had [23:48] been consulted ahead of Booking West and quote, no concerns were highlighted at the time. It continued, [23:54] anti-Semitism in all its forms is abhorrent. And we recognize the real and personal impact these [24:01] issues have had. Kanye West has previously denied allegations of victimizing his former employee. [24:09] And that's it for today's episode. The Global Story is also an audio podcast. You can find us [24:15] every weekday on bbc.com or wherever you listen. Thanks for tuning in. See you next time. Cheerio.