US Navy secretary Phalen ousted as Iran blockade continues

[0:00] The breaking news, the Secretary of the U.S. Navy is out as Trump's war with Iran enters day 54. [0:06] The surprise announcement coming just moments ago from the Pentagon, [0:09] multiple sources telling CNN that there were tensions for months between John Phelan [0:14] and the Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. Phelan was then told at this moment during the war, [0:19] resign or be fired. And I mentioned during the war, I mean, this is a major move at a shocking [0:24] time. This is the Secretary of the Navy and the U.S. Navy right now has 15 ships in the Middle East [0:29] with most enforcing the biggest blockade by the United States since World War II. [0:34] Phelan's sudden departure coming as it comes as we have new video tonight from Iranian state media [0:38] purportedly showing soldiers seizing container ships in the Strait of Hormuz. [0:43] Kristen, what are you learning? Obviously, as we said, you think about the scale of this blockade [0:47] and what the United States Navy is doing right now. Suddenly, the Secretary of the Navy out with a [0:52] resign or be fired. Yeah, that's right. Obviously not good for the Secretary of the Navy. And we're [0:58] learning some new reporting. And you mentioned some of this, which is this idea that there was [1:02] tension between Pete Hegseth and Phelan. A lot of it stemming from Hegseth wanting him to be quicker, [1:07] thinking it was too slow on ship reform. But there's another part of this that I think is key. [1:12] And this is what is always key in a Trump White House, which is proximity to power. And the reason [1:16] being that Hegseth was annoyed by Phelan because Phelan would go directly to President Trump. Now, [1:21] remember this. Phelan was not somebody with military experience. He was a donor. He and his wife had raised [1:26] millions of dollars for President Trump. He had a personal relationship with President Trump. [1:31] And in Trump's White House, administrative, even the top branches of government, the top [1:36] cabinet officials know that the closer you are in the direct line to Donald Trump, that gives you [1:41] all of the power. So Hegseth felt like Phelan was going around him, having these direct conversations [1:46] with President Trump. Now, we're still not entirely sure what option that Phelan went with, whether he [1:52] resigned or was fired. But of course, we know now he was ousted after these personal tensions amid this [1:59] ongoing war where the Navy is a central component. I mean, it is it is obviously incredible timing. [2:06] Kristen, thank you very much. Everyone is here with me. General Mark Schwartz, let me just start [2:10] with you because you spent so much of your military career in the Middle East with special forces. So, [2:15] you know, the context of this Phelan out all this with a resign or be fired as the reporting is [2:21] suddenly in the midst of this massive blockade, at least 15 ships involved in it. I mean, how what [2:27] is the impact of something like that at the Secretary of the Navy at a moment like this? [2:32] Well, I think the impact is greater from, you know, an outsider's view of, like you said, [2:37] the Secretary, the Navy Secretary being removed during a time of war down at the CENTCOM level and [2:43] certainly below that in terms of operations day to day in the Gulf and the CENTCOM area of [2:48] responsibility, not as big of an impact. But I think the optic certainly for our enemies, Iran [2:53] seeing this, just like, you know, they saw the ousting of the Army Chief of Staff a couple of [2:58] weeks ago, I think has an impact in terms of, oh, there's some instability inside of the department. [3:03] Laura, you've covered Iran for more than 20 years, obviously your senior editor at The Atlantic. [3:08] When the general talks about how this lands in Tehran, when they look at something like this, [3:13] what is the significance of that? Someone who's at the top of the U.S. Navy, the optics of that being out. [3:18] Yeah, it's not a great look, especially not at a time when there's sort of so much confusion [3:23] about what the U.S. objectives seem to be and where its red lines lie in advance of these [3:27] negotiations. It does project a bit of chaos. You know, Brett, as you've been involved with [3:33] negotiations with Iran during both the Obama and Biden administrations, you know, and you've [3:38] been in the rooms where the negotiations happen, you know, what do you think the impact of something [3:43] like this is? You know, obviously there is a bit of an irony, right, in the fact that we're being told [3:49] no one knows who's running things in Tehran when the U.S. is doing things like just kicking out [3:53] its secretary of the Navy in the midst of the biggest blockade in 70 years. [3:58] Yeah, and I agree with Mark. It's not going to affect, I think, the operational element of the [4:02] blockade. But what the U.S. is trying to project right now to Iran is that we're settling into a steady [4:08] state of economic pressure, mounting economic pressure. We're going to have this blockade in [4:12] place. We've got three carrier strike groups. We're settling in. So to have your Navy secretary [4:18] ousted or resigning, right, as that's happening, does not, I think, it doesn't send a signal of [4:25] confidence. And Iran will read it. They're looking for any indication that they can wiggle out of [4:30] this. And they'll read it as kind of an opening and maybe the administration is not as cohesive. [4:35] One thing that might be happening behind the scenes, I mean, the Navy secretary is focused, [4:39] Aaron, on force management, global force management. And I'm sure there is a debate in [4:43] the administration as we have this massive resource focus on the Middle East that affects [4:49] readiness in other parts of the globe. That's probably part of the debate, might be part of it, [4:53] but we don't know. Yeah, we don't know. General Schwartz, all that is really crucial, [4:58] not just in terms of force positioning, but also the weapons that have been used, right, [5:03] and everything, given obviously we've talked about what this all means for China. But what does [5:08] this mean also for Pete Hegseth? You know, there had been discussion as to whether there was any [5:12] wavering in the president's commitment to Hegseth at various moments. But this would appear that this [5:17] sort of came down to it's me or him. And Hegseth won. Certainly the secretary has the full confidence [5:24] of the president. I mean, every time that they're in public together, whether it's the formal briefings [5:29] or, you know, at the White House when they have their updates, obviously the security updates, [5:34] the president speaks very highly of the secretary and, you know, demonstrates that he has full [5:40] confidence in how he's carrying out the war. So whether it's a consolidation of power, I really [5:44] can't assess that. But certainly, you know, he's the one that brought that recommendation to the [5:49] president, and the president approved it. [5:50] Laura, you know, Barack Ravid was reporting from a U.S. government source that there's real [5:54] questions about whether the Supreme Leader, Mechab al-Khamenei, is incapacitated. You know, [6:01] whether he's, you know, in a sense it wasn't even a point about alive or dead. It's whether he can be [6:05] involved in any way, shape, or form, which could be crucial. Where do you think we are with the [6:12] Supreme Leader right now? We obviously haven't seen him in the 54 days of this war either. [6:16] Right. No, there's obviously there are legitimate questions to be raised here. And [6:20] in this length of time to have seen nothing that would indicate that he is functioning in the way [6:26] that one would expect the Supreme Leader to be functioning is a sign that something is not as [6:31] it's been presented. There's a lot of unknowns, obviously. And one of them is to the extent that [6:38] the Supreme Leader there is as an individual, but is also in office in Iran. There is a whole [6:43] institution that undergirds the Supreme Leader. It's got about 4,000 employees at headquarters and [6:48] maybe 10 times that across the country. So it's not just a question of is Moshe-Bal-Khamenei himself [6:55] making every decision personally, but is this bureaucracy functioning? Who is running it? [7:01] And to the extent that it is or isn't, what does that mean for the balance of factional forces [7:06] inside the Iranian regime? Because those forces have always been there. It's a country without [7:12] political parties, but with politics. And the office of the leader in certain times was a sort [7:20] of balancing and juggling. An arbiter of some sort. Allegedly. Allegedly. But it's interesting [7:27] you say 40,000 people work, the bureaucracy of the Supreme Leader's office itself. Brett, [7:32] you know, would you talk about who's making the decisions here? And I know that the White House [7:36] has talked about all these factions that are going on. And now there's talk about the former [7:42] Quds Force leader, General Vahidi, who is obviously chief of the IRGC, that perhaps he is essentially [7:50] calling the shots. What do you know of him? Well, he goes back a long ways. He was sanctioned in [7:58] the Obama administration in 2010 for having connections to the nuclear program.