US-Israel war on Iran: Trump’s victory narrative vs reality — This is America

[0:09] This is America, and this is where Donald Trump lives [0:13] and where he's been selling victory in the war with Iran, [0:17] even as a fragile ceasefire draws to a close. [0:21] But is the US public really buying that? [0:24] And will they continue to do so if this conflict, [0:28] which he said would be over in six weeks, [0:30] continues to go on and on? [0:34] I'll have more on that coming up. [0:35] But first, here's Cyril Vanier in our Washington studio. [0:39] John Holman there. [0:40] Thank you very much, John. [0:41] The US president says that it is only a matter of time [0:44] before Iran makes a deal, a deal on his terms, [0:48] one that Donald Trump can present to the American public [0:50] as a clear victory. [0:52] But promising a victory that hasn't materialized [0:54] and then doubling down on that promise also comes with risks. [0:59] Thanks to the progress we've made, [1:01] I can say tonight that we are on track [1:03] to complete all of America's military objectives shortly. [1:07] It will be wrapped up soon. [1:10] We're going to have a much safer world. [1:12] The Navy's gone, their Air Force is gone, [1:14] their anti-aircraft is all gone, it's all gone, [1:18] their radar is all gone, their leaders are all gone. [1:22] We're going to have victory very shortly. [1:24] I think it's close to over, yeah. [1:26] I mean, I view it as very close to over. [1:29] So in a moment we'll be speaking to Mike Hanna [1:31] about the thinking inside the White House. [1:33] Then we'll be asking what would actually constitute victory [1:37] for the United States, what the U.S. needs to achieve in Iran [1:40] and the wider Middle East to bolster the president's case [1:42] that this costly war has made Americans safer [1:45] or otherwise work to their benefit. [1:48] Well, President Donald Trump's rhetoric is clear [1:50] that the war is a success [1:52] and the U.S. is rapidly meeting its objectives. [1:54] But the president also has a history of making statements [1:57] that don't reflect the reality on the ground. [1:59] Trump repeatedly said that Iran was on the verge [2:02] of developing a nuclear weapon. [2:04] He also said that he launched the war [2:05] because Iran posed an imminent threat. [2:08] Well, a U.S. intelligence analyst contradicted him, [2:11] saying that Tehran was not, in fact, building nuclear arms. [2:15] In early April, Trump said the U.S. had already met [2:17] its military objectives in the war. [2:19] His secretary of defense added that Iran's military [2:22] has been decimated and rendered combat ineffective [2:24] for years to come. [2:26] But Iran has demonstrated that it still maintains [2:29] missile and drone capabilities, [2:31] even though they have sustained extensive damage. [2:33] And it still has its enriched uranium stockpiles. [2:37] Trump says the U.S. plans to take those. [2:40] Al Jazeera's Mike Hanna is live at the White House. [2:42] Mike, how does the president reconcile his promises [2:46] of a swift victory at the start of the war [2:48] with where we are now? [2:50] Well, he does so by continuing to insist [2:52] that there's already been a victory, [2:54] despite all the evidence to the contrary. [2:57] From the moment this conflict began, [2:58] President Trump has had shifting timelines [3:00] about how long this conflict is going to last. [3:03] Initially, he was saying it was a matter of days [3:05] and it became a matter of weeks, [3:07] not more than three weeks, then five weeks. [3:09] And then, of course, what we've had in recent days, [3:12] that one word, soon. [3:14] Soon has been repeated many times by President Trump [3:17] with reference to when this conflict is going to end [3:19] or when President Trump intends it to end. [3:23] So there are these shifting timelines. [3:25] There is this lack of clarity as to exactly [3:28] what the status of this conflict is. [3:30] And given the fact that there are these shifting timelines, [3:33] one raises the question whether there was any timeline [3:37] at all from the beginning of this conflict, [3:39] whether indeed the end game had been thought through [3:43] before the conflict began. [3:45] So these are questions that many within [3:47] the American public are asking. [3:49] Why start a war when you do not know how it's going to end [3:52] and you do not have an off-ramp in order to end it? [3:55] President Trump now continuing to try and build an off-ramp, [3:59] insisting that talks will take place, [4:01] insisting that he believes that these negotiations [4:04] will be successful, this despite, once again, [4:07] all evidence to the contrary. [4:09] Al Jazeera's Mike Hanna reporting live from the White House. [4:12] Thank you very much, Mike. [4:13] And the White House is holding firm [4:15] that the pressure campaign against Iran is working [4:17] and that a deal is within reach. [4:19] Manuel Rapallo has more. [4:22] After almost two months of war, [4:24] President Donald Trump has doubled down [4:26] that U.S. military force has put Washington [4:29] on the brink of a deal with Iran. [4:31] They have no Navy, they have no Air Force, [4:34] they have no leaders, they have no nothing. [4:36] Actually, their leaders are, it is regime change. [4:40] You call that enforced regime change. [4:42] The U.S.A. will get all nuclear dust. [4:45] In speech after speech, [4:47] We will make America powerful again. [4:51] Trump has argued the U.S. has already achieved [4:53] its core objectives, crippling Iran's nuclear program, [4:56] degrading its missile capabilities, [4:58] and striking its military infrastructure. [5:01] Across the administration, that message is echoed. [5:04] A deal, and by extension, a U.S. victory is seen within reach. [5:08] Nothing is official until you hear it from us here [5:10] at the White House, but we feel good [5:12] about the prospects of a deal. [5:14] But there is an alternative. [5:16] As our negotiators have said, [5:17] you, Iran, can choose a prosperous future, [5:20] a golden bridge, and we hope that you do [5:23] for the people of Iran. [5:24] Thank you very much. [5:25] The White House narrative is one of control, [5:27] economic pressure, military dominance, and momentum. [5:31] But outside the briefing rooms, [5:33] the picture begins to blur. [5:35] Thousands have been killed since the joint U.S.-Israeli strikes [5:38] began on Iran almost two months ago. [5:41] Still, there's been no surrender, no sweeping concessions, [5:44] and no clear sign that Tehran is ready to fold. [5:48] And U.S. intelligence assessments have suggested that, [5:53] despite the U.S. strikes, Iran's leadership structure [5:56] remains intact and may even be hardening, [5:59] with the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps exerting greater control. [6:03] Over the weekend, Iranian officials said they would not be joining a new round of talks with Washington, [6:09] and both sides continue to apply pressure in the Strait of Hormuz. [6:13] The Trump administration insists that its pressure tactics are delivering results [6:17] and that a victory is close. [6:19] But the version of success being sold here in Washington [6:22] does not fully match with what we're seeing play out in reality. [6:27] For now, the U.S. is projecting strength, [6:30] as Iran is projecting resistance. [6:32] Meanwhile, the gap between those two narratives is growing. [6:36] So while President Trump continues framing the conflict as a U.S. victory, [6:40] uncertainty looms over what that victory actually looks like [6:43] and whether it materializes at all. [6:46] Manuel Rappalo, Al Jazeera, Washington. [6:51] So let's pick up on the back of that question. [6:52] What could victory actually look like for the United States, [6:56] assuming victory even happens? [6:57] We're joined in the studio by former U.S. Deputy Assistant Secretary of State [7:00] for Arabian Peninsula Affairs, Ms. Danielle Benahim. [7:03] Good to have you with us. [7:04] Former senior U.S. diplomat and former U.S. Deputy Assistant Secretary [7:08] for Levant Affairs, Joe Rayburn, also with us. [7:11] Thank you very much, gentlemen. [7:13] Danielle Benahim, what is... [7:15] You were an advisor to President Biden. [7:17] You were also an advisor to Vice President Biden, [7:20] also an advisor to the Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton. [7:24] What would be the very minimum level of diplomatic or military achievement [7:31] that Donald Trump needs to get to right now [7:34] to be able to walk away and say he has won the war or the U.S. has won the war? [7:38] I think the off-ramps from this journey where the U.S. could say [7:42] that they outright won the war were probably far earlier [7:46] and we didn't take them. [7:47] We're now in a very complicated military engagement with Iran [7:51] and a very complicated diplomatic engagement. [7:53] And I think you have to go back and look at the goals [7:55] for this war from the outset. [7:57] They were never articulated in one place very clearly, [8:00] but we talked about restraining Iran's nuclear program [8:04] in an authoritative way over a long period of time. [8:07] Arguably, some of that could have been done without a war. [8:09] We talked about addressing Iran's missile stockpiles [8:12] so that it can't threaten the region and the world. [8:15] I think that has happened to some extent, [8:18] although a lot of those missiles remain. [8:20] And Iran has found a new way to threaten the region and the world [8:23] by closing the Strait of Hormuz in a way that wasn't even really [8:27] palpably clear before this war. [8:30] You know, they talked about an Iranian regime change. [8:34] And in some ways, the Iranian regime has changed in the sense [8:37] that it's the same regime with different people. [8:40] But in some cases, those people are less amenable. [8:42] That's not what most people would define as regime change. [8:44] That's right. [8:45] And then I think what most people hoped regime change would do [8:48] would be unleash the talents of the Iranian people. [8:51] And so we haven't seen that. [8:52] So on all of those goals, we're pretty far behind [8:56] where we started this war. [8:57] But I think the key question is, what can we get through diplomacy [9:02] or otherwise to advance U.S. interests here? [9:05] And I think the absolute pass-fail test at the start of this [9:09] is can you reopen the Strait of Hormuz for commercial traffic [9:13] to get that blood pumping to the world economy [9:17] through those waters and get those ships moving? [9:20] The second test that I think is important, in part because [9:22] the administration made it very important, [9:25] even though Iran wasn't currently enriching [9:27] since the bombing of last June, would be to come to some kind [9:30] of understanding that prevents Iran from racing for a bomb [9:33] and puts many, many years on the clock of verifiable restrictions [9:37] for the Iranian nuclear program. [9:39] And then I think beyond that, there are other things [9:43] that the United States would certainly like to see, [9:45] and there are a bunch of things that Iran would like to see. [9:47] But the United States and Israel and others [9:50] may have to live to fight another day. [9:51] Joe Rayburn, you've been involved in the major conflicts [9:55] that the U.S. has fought the last, what, three decades? [10:00] Iran? I beg your pardon, Iraq, Afghanistan? [10:03] Yugoslavia. [10:04] Okay, I didn't know about that one. [10:06] And you've been in the field, [10:10] you've been an intelligence analyst, [10:11] and you've been a political advisor [10:13] and also involved in diplomacy. [10:15] So, you check all the boxes. [10:17] What, when you look at the situation here, [10:20] what constitutes success and victory from your point of view? [10:24] Because I imagine it could be very different [10:26] for a military man. [10:28] Well, so, on a military level, [10:31] the Iranian regime has been dramatically weakened, [10:35] operationally speaking. [10:37] I mean, it happens to be that the ceasefire [10:39] has sort of put the military campaign on hold. [10:43] But when you're in a situation [10:45] where the Iranian regime doesn't control its own airspace, [10:48] the Israeli Air Force, the U.S. Air Force, [10:51] is flying over all parts of Iran, [10:54] able to strike anything they want to at pretty much any time. [10:57] That's a militarily unsustainable situation [11:01] for the Iranian regime to be in. [11:03] U.S. war jets being shot down notwithstanding. [11:06] Well, so, I mean, we don't know the exact tally, [11:10] but probably over 13,000 sorties [11:12] flown into Iranian airspace [11:15] with two aircraft shot down [11:19] by probably a shoulder-fired system. [11:22] So, I mean, compare that to any other air campaign we've had. [11:26] I think the air planners, if you told them, [11:28] that at the outset, you're going to do that many sorties [11:32] and only lose two aircraft to hostile fire and no crews, [11:36] I think they would have said, no, no, no, that's not possible. [11:39] So, but that's the military mismatch. [11:42] Now, if it comes to a confrontation in the Strait of Hormuz, [11:46] I think you'd see a similar military mismatch. [11:49] CENTCOM, before the ceasefire, [11:51] CENTCOM was strafing the littoral region, [11:54] the coast there for at least three weeks, [11:57] basically pushing back all the assets [11:59] that the Iranians could use, [12:01] destroying their bases and so on, [12:04] it'd be very difficult for the Iranians [12:05] to actually enforce the closure of the Strait of Hormuz [12:09] if CENTCOM chooses to try to force it open. [12:12] But they've just enforced it over the last 48 hours. [12:14] They opened fire on ships, so ships had to turn back. [12:17] Yeah, that was the ships unescorted. [12:19] I mean, this is a confrontation. [12:20] This is an untested proposition. [12:22] Does the Iranian regime have the military means [12:26] to be able to enforce the closure of the Strait of Hormuz [12:29] against the U.S. Navy and against the U.S. Air Force? [12:33] It's an untested proposition. [12:34] Just looking at the mismatch in all other aspects of the war [12:39] and what assets they probably still have available, [12:41] I think the answer is probably no. [12:43] I think the CENTCOM planners probably agree with me. [12:49] So, the question- [12:50] But the ships going through the Strait [12:51] don't agree with you, right? [12:52] Because they're not going through the Strait. [12:53] Those are commercial ships that are unescorted. [12:55] But on the day of the first Islamabad talks, [12:58] there were two U.S. destroyers transited the Gulf one way, [13:01] turned around and transited back unmolested. [13:05] So, I think- [13:05] Iran disagrees with that narrative. [13:07] They have their own narrative, but carry on. [13:08] Yeah, I mean, it's very clear. [13:11] Either they did not have the ability [13:13] to stop those destroyers from going through the Gulf [13:16] or they were afraid to. [13:17] Both of them amount to the same thing in the end. [13:19] So, there's a third U.S. carrier strike group [13:23] en route to the region. [13:24] By the time that gets there, for sure, [13:26] there would be the naval assets, [13:27] I think military experts would tell you, [13:30] to be able to force the Strait [13:31] and enforce a blockade of all of the Iranian ports. [13:34] Now, the difficulty comes in translating [13:38] that military advantage into your political objectives. [13:42] So, in that case, wider things play in. [13:46] The world economy, political pressures, [13:48] both international pressures, [13:50] domestic pressures and all that. [13:51] How that will, how President Trump and his cabinet [13:55] will decide according to that calculus, I don't know. [13:58] But just in strict military terms, you know, [14:02] the negotiators are sitting on one side of the table, [14:05] have the decisive military advantage if they choose to use it. [14:10] Let's say they return to hostilities, [14:11] not to belabor this point, [14:12] let's say they return to the hostilities, [14:15] the U.S. side, the Israeli side together, [14:17] can go far up the escalation ladder [14:20] beyond where the Iranians are able to go. [14:22] But the question that we're asking today is what actually constitutes a win? [14:25] And so what you're telling us is that the U.S. and Israel have the ability [14:29] and have vastly degraded Iran's military capabilities. [14:34] But you're also yourself pointing out that this may not actually constitute a win [14:38] when you turn back and try to sell this to the American audience. [14:41] There may be other factors that cause the administration to stop short [14:45] of what their military leverage could likely get them if they were to continue. [14:50] This is true. [14:51] Daniel Benayim, how do presidents, secretaries of state, vice presidents weigh this? [14:58] In other words, what their military people are telling them [15:01] of what may or may not have been achieved on the ground [15:03] versus how they are then, especially in an election year, [15:07] going to be able to package it for the American voters? [15:11] You know, I think if you're the president or the vice president [15:15] or the chief of staff, you're among the only people who really have these jobs [15:19] that kind of cut all the way across the panoply from how do we end this war [15:23] in a way that meets the national interests of the United States [15:25] and what's the price of a gallon of gas [15:28] and what does this mean for the midterm elections? [15:31] And I think that, you know, David Petraeus, among others, [15:34] have talked about the fact that the center of gravity... [15:36] Whom Joe Rayburn advised. [15:37] Exactly. [15:38] For the center of gravity for an effort like this one, [15:41] one of the key centers of gravity is the public opinion of the state [15:44] that has to conduct this war over time. [15:46] And so I think they are looking at public opinion. [15:48] They are looking at macroeconomic indicators. [15:51] They're trying, and President Trump is trying, [15:53] to talk down the markets. [15:55] Every Friday afternoon there seems to be great news that comes out [15:57] to kind of help the markets close at a sustainable level, [16:01] and then something seems to go wrong on a Sunday, [16:02] in part to create enough time and space politically and economically, [16:07] which are tightly enmeshed to do whatever they want to do militarily or diplomatically. [16:12] But I do think that they're concerned. [16:14] It's already, you're already in April. [16:17] We're increasingly, the further we get along this year, [16:20] the closer any disruptions to the macroeconomic picture in the United States [16:24] get to those midterm elections. [16:26] Yeah, six months from now. [16:27] Exactly. [16:28] I think while President Trump really wants to see this war [16:31] to a satisfactory conclusion insofar as he can, [16:35] I think he's got to have one eye on the calendar. [16:37] Look at how, let's take a quick look at how this is being portrayed [16:41] across the U.S. media landscape. [16:43] Also, how Americans currently feel, according to the latest poll numbers, [16:47] currently feel about this war. [16:49] John Holman has been looking at this. [16:52] So as we head into the last two days of a fragile ceasefire [16:56] and stalled peace talks, [16:57] is the U.S. winning this war or even bossing the negotiations? [17:02] President Trump's doing what he can to shape the story into a yes, [17:05] making impromptu calls to reporters across the spectrum. [17:09] On Sunday, it was the turn of Trey Yinks to Fox News, [17:13] one of the most Trump-friendly outlets. [17:16] He explained the conversation he'd had. [17:17] Good morning. [17:18] I just spoke with President Trump for about 20 minutes, [17:20] and he told me if Iran does not sign this deal, [17:24] the whole country is getting blown up. [17:26] The president told me this tough talk is the only thing the Iranians understand. [17:31] They don't understand the traditional diplomacy and dialogue of the region. [17:34] They understand firepower, [17:36] the firepower that belongs to the United States military. [17:39] So Trump there is the master negotiator playing hardball. [17:43] But the Saturday night panelists for Fox News competitor, [17:47] leftist CNN, saw things differently. [17:49] I want Donald Trump to succeed in ending this war, [17:53] but I can't ignore the incompetence in which he's prosecuting that negotiation, [17:57] because it's obvious. [17:57] And the way that we know they don't have a strategy is because the strategy changes every day. [18:00] The Wall Street Journal, a conservative outlet but often critical of Trump, [18:05] took things further with a behind-the-curtains look at a president who they said [18:10] is dealing with doubts himself. [18:12] Here's the headline behind Trump's public bravado on the war. [18:17] He grapples with his own fears. [18:19] It goes on to say that Trump's veering between belligerent and conciliatory approaches [18:24] and grappling behind the scenes with just how badly things could go wrong. [18:29] The article also says that some of his more out there messages threatening Iran were actually staged. [18:35] He said he wanted to seem as unstable and insulting as possible, [18:40] believing it could bring the Iranians to the table, [18:43] administration officials reportedly told the journal. [18:46] It was a language, he said, the Iranians would understand. [18:51] But what does the US public think? [18:53] Is Trump leading the country to victory or into a long, drawn-out mess? [18:58] Well, there's a new poll from NBC News who are usually pretty critical of Trump. [19:02] It shows that 67% of Americans disapprove of his handling of the war. [19:09] NBC says that, according to their polling, [19:11] that's the lowest job rating for Trump yet in his second term. [19:16] As he goes into the crunch point of this ceasefire, [19:19] there's a lot on the line for Iran, the US, and for this presidency. [19:25] OK, gentlemen, you both worked for the last two administrations. [19:28] You worked with the Trump administration in his first term, Joel. [19:32] And, Daniel, you worked, as we said, with President Biden and before that when he was vice president. [19:37] I'd like to ask you both the same question. [19:39] If you were advising the president in this moment, [19:44] and we've established that all presidents are always balancing their political needs, [19:50] how they're going to sell this to the public, [19:51] versus what they're actually doing on the ground, [19:54] how the war is actually going and how it's being prosecuted, [19:57] what would you advise them, what would you tell them to do now, [20:01] based on where we are in this war against Iran, Joel? [20:05] Yeah, I think he's, well, look, if you look at the polling among the president's Republican base, [20:11] and especially the self-identified MAGA constituency, [20:16] the support is overwhelmingly positive for the president on the Iran war approach. [20:23] So I think he doesn't have to worry about his own base for the time being. [20:27] The midterms are quite some time off. [20:29] But the base is not enough, by the way. [20:30] Sorry? [20:31] The base isn't quite enough, right, if he wants to hang on to a majority in the midterms. [20:34] I mean, you know, midterms, I'm not a political commentary expert, [20:39] but, I mean, midterms tend to be about enthusiasm in your own base [20:43] and turnout among the base. [20:46] But I think that he has some time politically speaking. [20:50] He's got a military advantage. [20:51] If I were advising him, I would say press the military advantage. [20:55] Americans don't like warfare, but they like a winner. [20:59] So there are some achievable objectives here to, I think you could impose some terms [21:05] on the Iranian regime related to the threats that we identified at the outset of the war, [21:11] the nuclear disposition of the nuclear material, missile and drone threat, financing of proxies. [21:16] Those are well within reach with the military leverage that he has. [21:19] How do you impose terms? [21:21] What in the last six, seven weeks gives you confidence that if the U.S. either resumes bombing [21:27] or just without resuming bombing maintains its current naval blockade, [21:30] that the U.S. would achieve sometime in the next few weeks or months what it hasn't yet achieved? [21:35] Listen, what the president has been saying from time to time, warning, is the following. [21:41] The Iranian regime's critical infrastructure, its electrical grid, its telecoms network, [21:47] its refining capacity is undefended. [21:50] That could be taken out, probably taken out by target, you know, skilled targeteers in a way [21:56] where you didn't permanently damage the main infrastructure. [21:59] And the Iranian regime's economy would grind to a halt. [22:02] If that country went dark, I think the Iranian regime would begin to have great trouble [22:05] maintaining control on the ground, and that could see an unraveling. [22:09] Those things could be war crimes. [22:11] No, they're not war crimes. [22:12] If dual-use infrastructure, which is supporting a military campaign, [22:17] is a legitimate target under the law of war. [22:20] But bomb the power plants, make Iran go dark, which is what Trump has threatened to do? [22:25] Yes, you could do that. [22:26] There's nothing that the Iranian regime can do to prevent that, [22:30] because they don't control their own airspace. [22:32] So, I mean... [22:33] No, they can't prevent it, but my point is it might be against international law. [22:36] It might be unlawful to do those things. [22:38] It's not unlawful. [22:39] This is, I mean, like I said, critical infrastructure that serves a dual purpose, [22:43] if it's supporting a military adversary, it's a legitimate target. [22:47] This is, I mean, this is a closed-and-shut case. [22:50] So, he has that escalatory option. [22:52] Honestly, I suspect, having looked at the Iranian regime for quite some time, [22:56] including as a CENTCOM officer, again, if the country went dark, [23:00] if the regime could no longer communicate at a local level, [23:03] they would begin to lose control in large swaths of the country. [23:06] And that could be the unraveling of the regime. [23:08] I think they know that. [23:09] That's why that threat is a very potent one. [23:11] Daniel, what would you advise the president if you're in this moment now? [23:15] Well, I think we advise two very different presidents. [23:17] Sure, of course. [23:18] But the advice that I would give to any American president at this moment [23:22] would be to look at this picture and say that you've achieved militarily [23:25] what you can achieve militarily. [23:26] Now is the time to pivot to a more flexible diplomatic approach [23:31] to try to get political gains out of the military gains you've got. [23:34] You're going to need to apply pressure. [23:36] You're going to need to apply pressure on the straight to keep that open, [23:38] including the counter-blockade that they've done. [23:41] They're going to need to have the threat of the use of force on the table. [23:44] But this would be a good time to lose your phone, [23:46] stop issuing threats of civilizational erasure, [23:49] and start looking for an actual compromise that addresses the issues [23:52] and be as flexible as necessary to achieve an outcome here. [23:57] Going back to war for the United States, [23:59] I think regime change remains a fantasy. [24:02] And while it's a fantasy that I share and would love to one day as an American [24:05] have a relationship that's more direct with the people of Iran [24:08] than we've been able to have and give them a direct role in ruling their country, [24:11] I don't think that should be the United States policy at this moment. [24:14] I think the United States policy should be to look for an end to the war [24:17] that preserves U.S. interests, of which there are several vital ones on the table, [24:21] including nonproliferation and the freedom of the seas. [24:23] All right. [24:24] So you're saying don't go—the two of you are quite different in the approach [24:28] that you would take right now. [24:29] Joel Rayburn saying maybe there is more military pressure to be applied [24:32] that could achieve results. [24:34] You're saying don't go down that road. [24:36] You've achieved what you can so far. [24:37] I also think that there are times when military pressure achieves a great deal. [24:41] And I think the old saying that there's no military solution to a political problem, [24:46] it's not totally true. [24:47] I think last June's war actually meaningfully set back Iran's nuclear program [24:51] in ways that bought a lot of time for the United States to try to find other solutions. [24:56] So I think there is a role for the military instrument here. [24:58] I just think that it comes at a cost and it's achieved a great deal [25:01] and needs to be used in harmony with other tools. [25:04] Listen, thank you very much, gentlemen, for joining us on the show today. [25:07] That's Joel Rayburn, former U.S. Deputy Assistant Secretary for Levant Affairs [25:14] and Danielle Benaim, former U.S. Deputy Assistant Secretary of State [25:17] for Arabian Peninsula Affairs. [25:19] Thank you very much to both of you. [25:20] And the president has repeatedly claimed that he is winning [25:23] or has already won the war with Iran, [25:25] especially when talking to when taking to social media. [25:29] Alex Baird has this roundup of how the American public [25:32] has digested that victory narrative online. [25:34] The president famously hates losing, even more than he loves winning. [25:39] His latest reminder of that on Instagram. [25:42] We're going to win so much, you may even get tired of winning. [25:45] And you'll say, please, please, it's too much winning. [25:49] We can't take it anymore. [25:51] But for some, that post over the weekend was tone deaf. [25:54] Many struggling to believe this is what winning looks like, [25:58] with the Strait of Hormuz still a shooting gallery [26:00] and the war with no exit. [26:02] Trump's victory narrative proving hard to swallow flip-flops [26:05] happening at warp speed. [26:07] The Daily Show distilling that down to this. [26:10] Remember, I'm the president of peace. [26:13] Peace and war, are they really so different? [26:17] Recent polling during the rounds online [26:18] has only 15% of Americans backing Trump's victory claims [26:22] and 38% still support the strikes. [26:26] Economic podcaster Peter Schiff saying, [26:28] that matters because Trump's diehard fans will believe the president [26:32] even if he spins defeat as the greatest military victory in history. [26:37] That spin being spun across social media with AI videos raking up millions [26:41] and millions of views on both sides of the spectrum. [26:45] Republican strategist Scott Jennings convinced that for the Democrats, [26:49] Trump can never win, even if he just walked into Iran. [26:52] Do you want us to win? [26:55] Do you want us to defeat these people? [26:57] I always want the U.S. to win. [26:59] Because it sounds to me like you are cheering for a bad outcome. [27:02] Fred Flights is the vice chairman of the America's first policy institute [27:05] and he maintains Trump is winning, eroding Tehran's leverage [27:08] despite constant media lies. [27:12] Whatever side you're on, there's no denying the president's view [27:15] that he's going to win so much, [27:17] you're going to be so sick and tired of winning. [27:20] Alex Baird there. [27:23] Well, on This Is America, [27:24] we'll keep following the decisions that shape the U.S. [27:26] and influence the world. [27:28] For now, we'll hand right back to Al Jazeera's global headquarters in Doha. [27:32] Thank you for joining us.