Trump, Iran and the ‘Greater Israel’ project: Varsha Gandikota & Jeremy Scahill — Reframe

[0:00] It would seem that taking out leaders, quote-unquote, [0:02] has now become completely, completely normalized. [0:05] The Iranians might point to the Epstein files, [0:08] and they've in fact begun to remark and refer [0:11] to the United States government as the Epstein regime. [0:13] Is that relevant at all as you think about the sameness [0:16] between Democrats and Republicans? [0:18] I think on a deeper level, the real scandal of this [0:22] is that what it is is an indication [0:24] of what is visible in plain sight, [0:26] that we don't need to see Epstein's private emails [0:28] to understand, and that is that there is an elite group [0:32] of leaders that are constantly, as part of a system they built, [0:37] conspiring to wage these wars, conspiring to steal [0:41] natural resources from the rest of the world. [0:51] The U.S. and Israeli military strikes on Iran [0:54] have transformed the region into a battlefield, [0:56] igniting fears that the world will be destabilized [0:59] for decades to come. [1:01] But who was really in control of this war? [1:03] How far have we come from the U.S. so-called war on terror? [1:07] And is this actually a brazen attempt to reshape the region? [1:12] I'm Varsha Gandikota Nell Utla. [1:14] I lead the Progressive International, [1:16] and I also serve as Executive Secretary for The Hague Group, [1:19] a forum for governments coordinating legal and diplomatic [1:23] action for Palestine. [1:25] My guest this week on Reframe is the award-winning [1:28] investigative journalist Jeremy Scahill. [1:31] He's the author of Blackwater and Dirty Wars, which uncover [1:35] the expansion of U.S. covert operations around the world. [1:40] Jeremy is co-founder of DropSight News. [1:44] Jeremy, welcome to Al Jazeera Reframe. [1:46] It's my honor to be here. [1:48] You've spent decades working on U.S. wars [1:51] and documenting them in great detail, [1:53] from the death squads in Iraq to the drone campaigns [1:57] of the Obama years, and the genocide in Gaza [1:59] under both President Trump and President Biden. [2:02] But as you watch the chaotic few months of 2026, [2:07] from the abduction of Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro [2:10] to the repeated threats on Greenland to the blockade of Cuba [2:13] and Operation Epic Fury, as it's called, on Iran, [2:17] I have to ask, who is running U.S. foreign policy right now? [2:21] You know, I think there's a tendency, [2:23] because Trump is such a cartoonish villain, [2:26] and is constantly saying the quiet part out loud, [2:28] and he's constantly telling lies, big and small, [2:32] to perceive this moment as some kind of extraordinary moment [2:36] in history, and in some ways it is. [2:38] But I think if you break down your question, [2:41] we're talking about some of the most violent [2:43] and obscene strands of American empire history [2:46] all coming together under Trump. [2:48] You mentioned the abduction of Nicolas Maduro. [2:51] This is reminiscent of the early stages of the CIA, [2:55] when the U.S. started to expand its covert operations [2:57] in Central Latin America, [2:59] the overthrow of Mossadegh in 1953 in Iran. [3:03] So Trump is pulling from that. [3:06] Trump, when he first came to power in 2016, [3:08] was constantly denouncing the neoconservatives. [3:11] Well, this time around in Trump 2.0, [3:13] the neocons are in control of a large portion [3:16] of American foreign policy. [3:18] And then you, of course, have the sameness [3:20] of American foreign policy under both Democrats [3:22] and Republicans, the continuity from Bush to Obama [3:26] to Biden to Trump. [3:28] That's all present, but there's an added dimension, [3:30] which is profiting off of the White House [3:32] in an unprecedented manner. [3:34] But all that said, you know, Trump did campaign [3:36] on ending the forever wars. [3:38] He was supposedly the candidate of peace. [3:41] And then, of course, he's launched what many would claim [3:44] and argue is the most reckless U.S. assault [3:46] in a generation. [3:48] What changed? [3:49] I think that there is a Benjamin Netanyahu, [3:52] Miriam Adelson wing of the Trump base [3:55] that essentially has purchased, on the one hand, [3:58] a very core part of American foreign policy, [4:01] and then won an internal battle within Trump land on this. [4:04] I think the fact that the president's son-in-law, [4:06] Jared Kushner, is so close to Netanyahu, [4:09] but also his business dealings are totally immersed [4:13] in both Gulf money and Israeli projects. [4:16] So there's an ideological component to it [4:19] of the people around Trump, [4:20] but Trump himself is not an ideological guy. [4:23] And I think that part of why we saw this difference [4:25] from Trump one to Trump two [4:26] is that there was also a financial component. [4:28] Miriam Adelson was the chief fundraiser [4:32] and donor to Donald Trump, [4:33] and I think we're looking at a transaction [4:35] for the benefit of Israel in large part. [4:38] That brings up for me a kind of contradiction, [4:40] which is, you know, you've argued, in fact, [4:43] that Trump has been telling sources [4:45] that he wants to be remembered as the precedent [4:47] who forever ended the Islamic revolution in Iran, [4:50] and that he wants it done before the midterms. [4:53] Now that's a big claim, right? [4:54] No matter what we think of Trump as ideological or not, [4:58] I think we can argue that he wants to be remembered [5:01] as the guy that gets the job done, [5:02] which fundamentally means he needs resolution of some kind. [5:05] I would argue that Israel's motives are exactly the opposite, [5:08] which is a kind of anti-resolution, [5:11] a forever destabilization of the region. [5:13] How do these two contradictory motives then work? [5:15] Yeah, I mean, look, what I understand is that, [5:18] you know, Trump has been sold on the idea of his greatness [5:21] as an American president when it comes to foreign policy, [5:24] and I think that he was sold on the idea of running the deck, [5:28] that what you did in Venezuela can be replicated elsewhere. [5:31] And in the deliberations ahead of the February 28th [5:35] of the launching of the war against Iran, [5:37] Trump did start to talk increasingly among his advisors [5:41] and people briefing him about being the man [5:44] who forever changed the Iranian regime. [5:46] And I think that essentially he was being fluffed up [5:49] by people who had their own reasons [5:52] for wanting to go to war against Iran. [5:54] The reason why I say that he's not ideological [5:56] is that I don't think that Trump is driven [5:58] by a greater Israel project. [6:00] I don't think Trump is a particularly religious man. [6:02] I don't think Trump even particularly likes Benjamin Netanyahu. [6:05] I think that Donald Trump can be sold on ideas, [6:08] but if the bottom line is always secured, [6:10] which is setting up financial prospects [6:12] for his family and his cronies, he leans into that. [6:16] And I think that's a huge factor in all of this. [6:18] You've reported extensively on the privatization of war. [6:21] So even this phenomenon is an altogether new, right, [6:24] from Blackwater in Iraq to the mercenary architecture [6:27] of the war on terror. [6:29] And as you've just argued, of course, [6:31] now you have his son-in-law Kushner [6:33] with business interests in the Gulf, [6:34] Steve Witkoff's son, Alex, who's making business deals [6:38] just as his father's negotiating peace deals in the region. [6:42] Who are these people? [6:44] Well, what's interesting is before the Americans, [6:47] for the second time in one year, [6:49] pretended to be engaged in negotiations, [6:52] only to turn around and then launch [6:54] a surprise massive bombing campaign against Iran, [6:57] one of the things that Iranian negotiators were contemplating [7:00] was offering huge oil and natural resources concessions [7:03] to the United States as part of the negotiations [7:06] that were supposedly about nuclear. [7:08] I spoke to Iranian sources that described a process [7:10] of trying to come up with a package [7:12] that would appeal to this part of Trump. [7:14] It's extraordinary if we think about it [7:16] because all of these deals that were made [7:18] with the United Arab Emirates, with other Gulf countries, [7:21] when Trump went on his tour there. [7:24] Gulf Arab countries have to be thinking, [7:27] are we talking with President Trump or businessman Trump? [7:30] It's an extraordinarily unusual situation [7:33] that these countries have to deal with. [7:34] It's a huge question. [7:36] I mean, that's an interesting question [7:37] because we're not just talking about the privatization [7:40] of military contracts, which again, [7:42] we've seen in the past as well, under Obama, under Biden, [7:45] but a privatization of all of the state's architecture, right? [7:49] It's diplomacy fundamentally and taking it a step further, [7:52] privatization of the United Nations, [7:54] privatization of the global governance architecture [7:58] as we've seen with the Board of Peace [8:00] or a stabilization force that's fundamentally private. [8:04] You've worked very closely [8:05] on kind of taking about the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. [8:08] What did you find there? [8:09] Look, the Board of Peace, this whole scam [8:12] is one of the lowest points [8:14] in the history of the United Nations. [8:16] The idea that the United Nations Security Council [8:19] put its stamp of legitimacy [8:21] on a privatized so-called board [8:23] and the charter of that [8:25] says that Trump remains the chairman [8:26] even beyond his presidency. [8:29] And then the first thing that they do [8:31] is they have Jared Kushner give a presentation, [8:34] which is for a real estate project [8:36] that is going to be built on the corpses [8:39] of tens of thousands of Palestinians [8:41] who have been murdered in this genocide. [8:43] So you have the Gaza model [8:45] and then they say at it, [8:46] but this is a model that applies to the rest of the world. [8:48] So what are they really talking about there? [8:50] They're saying the United Nations is illegitimate now. [8:53] We don't need it. [8:54] That is what they're saying here. [8:56] And the United Nations just abdicated [8:58] its moral, ethical and legal responsibilities [9:00] by saying, yes, Donald Trump can deploy a private force [9:04] that will have no UN oversight to speak of [9:07] with any legitimacy over it. [9:08] This is an incredible low point [9:10] in the history of the United Nations. [9:12] You've spent 25 years documenting [9:14] US-American war crimes. [9:17] Has anyone ever been held accountable even once? [9:19] Has the government of the United States [9:21] come close to being held accountable? [9:24] Absolutely not. [9:25] I mean, what often happens, [9:27] if you take the Abu Ghraib episode [9:30] where American military personnel [9:32] and intelligence personnel [9:34] and private contractors [9:36] were systematically torturing Iraqi prisoners [9:39] in the early stages of the invasion [9:41] and occupation of Iraq, [9:42] it was only the lowest ranking people [9:44] that ever got hit with any charges to speak of. [9:48] In fact, when lawsuits have been brought [9:50] against American officials in US courts, [9:53] like Donald Rumsfeld, [9:54] the former defense secretary, [9:56] for the deaths of detainees at Guantanamo, [9:59] even under President Barack Obama, [10:01] his Justice Department intervened in those cases [10:04] and said that even if everything is true, [10:07] that Rumsfeld was responsible for [10:09] kidnapping, torture, extrajudicial killing, [10:12] it would have been within what they called [10:13] the official scope of his duties. [10:15] This was a Obama-era Justice Department memo [10:19] intervening in a lawsuit that sought to hold [10:21] the defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, [10:23] responsible for a very clear set of war crimes [10:26] involving the kidnapping and torture of prisoners [10:28] who were sent to Guantanamo. [10:30] Only the lowest ranking people ever get hit with anything. [10:34] How much do the US public even know about October 7th? [10:38] How much do the US public know about US's war on Iran, [10:41] about its blockade of Cuba? [10:43] What do they actually hear on their televisions? [10:46] Yeah, you know, I think a lot of people focus on Trump, [10:50] but I think it's more helpful to look at sort of [10:52] the so-called adults that we were all told [10:54] need to go back into the room after Trump's first term. [10:58] Joe Biden was a man who spent 50 years in office, [11:00] was probably the single most dedicated Zionist [11:04] in American politics. [11:07] You know, when we're looking at American political power, [11:11] I think that people make themselves feel like [11:14] they're on the right side of history because [11:16] I'm opposed to Donald Trump. [11:18] But, you know, you can't be a vegetarian between meals. [11:21] And I think that if you don't have the honesty or integrity [11:26] to recognize the sameness of tactics and policy [11:30] and the wielding of power that exists between [11:32] the Democrats and the Republicans, [11:34] you can't have an honest discussion. [11:37] I remember after 9-11, you know, [11:39] all the horrors about, you know, Bush and Cheney. [11:42] And it was a horror period. [11:44] It was unbelievable. [11:45] They launched a borderless war on the world. [11:47] They're doing extrajudicial kidnapping and killing [11:49] and launching ground invasions and bombings. [11:51] And it was completely lawless. [11:53] When we look back now on that, [11:55] it's almost quaint the way that they approached, [11:58] well, things have to be, [11:59] they were almost like fanatically dedicated [12:02] to trying to follow the law compared to what now happens, [12:04] where it's just like, we can just assassinate anyone. [12:07] We can kidnap heads of state, et cetera. [12:09] I mean, I think Dick Cheney, if he was alive today, [12:11] would just be like looking at Donald Trump and seeing like, [12:14] why did we waste all this time even pretending [12:16] that we needed to follow any laws whatsoever? [12:18] Because it's so lawless. [12:20] And Obama deserves credit in a very bad way [12:24] for having legitimized some of the worst policies [12:27] that were incubated after 9-11 by Bush and Cheney. [12:31] He had an opportunity to turn the page on it [12:33] and to hold people accountable. [12:35] And instead, what he said about CIA crimes [12:37] is that we need to look forward, not backward. [12:39] And the failure to hold those war criminals accountable [12:42] from the Bush era for those two terms of Bush and Cheney [12:45] set the stage so that the Gaza genocide can happen, [12:49] so that the crimes that the Trump administration [12:51] is committing can happen. [12:52] You know, the adults in the room are often the ones [12:55] that pave the way for people like Donald Trump. [12:59] I mean, talking about these targeted assassinations, [13:02] you would seem that taking out leaders, quote unquote, [13:05] has now become completely normalized. [13:07] How did we get here? [13:09] The Iranians might point to the Epstein files, [13:12] and they've in fact begun to remark and refer [13:14] to the United States government as the Epstein regime. [13:17] Is that relevant at all as you think about the sameness [13:20] between Democrats and Republicans? [13:22] I follow the reporting on Epstein. [13:25] I have colleagues at DropSite that have done some of the best reporting [13:28] on the Israel angle with Epstein. [13:30] But my take on it is this, that in a way, [13:34] part of the reason that the public imagination is so captured by Epstein [13:38] is that there's a kind of scandalous nature to it. [13:42] It involves very serious allegations about human trafficking, [13:47] about horrid sexual abuse to minors, [13:51] but also the political intrigue components of it, [13:54] and the fact that Epstein very clearly had these deep connections [13:58] with multiple governments, powerful people, the very power elite. [14:01] So I understand why it captures the imagination. [14:05] I understand why the Iranians focused on that a lot, [14:08] saying that it's us versus the Epstein regime. [14:12] But I think on a deeper level, the real scandal of this [14:15] is that what it is is an indication of what is visible in plain sight, [14:20] that we don't need to see Epstein's private emails to understand. [14:23] And that is that there is an elite group of leaders [14:27] that are constantly, as part of a system they built, conspiring to wage these wars, [14:33] conspiring to steal natural resources from the rest of the world, [14:37] are operating in dishonest and seditious ways behind the scenes [14:41] against, in an effort to overthrow basic democratic principles. [14:45] It's all out in the open for us to see. [14:48] And so in a sense, the Epstein releases made something tangible for people. [14:52] But I look at it and say, I'm not surprised that this group of people [14:56] are documented in these files, because we've seen what they've been doing for decades. [15:02] If there is something different, though, about the kind of March 2026 moment, [15:06] about watching Iran respond, compete with the U.S.-Israeli attack on them, [15:12] for me, it's what's happening with the Gulf states, [15:15] who have, of course, been victims of Iran's retaliatory attacks. [15:19] Iranian drones and missiles have struck targets in Bahrain, Kuwait, UAE, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Qatar. [15:26] And I do believe that there's a rising anger in these states, [15:30] that the U.S. has done little to shield them, [15:32] while it has done, on the other hand, a great deal to protect Israel. [15:36] Do you think this has shaken the Gulf states' relationship to the United States at all? [15:41] Let's back up a little bit here. [15:43] You have Iran engaging in an unprecedented level of diplomacy with GCC countries, [15:49] and there was a sort of rapprochement that was setting in that was very disturbing to [15:53] Benjamin Netanyahu, and that was very disturbing to certain elements of the U.S. political class. [15:58] And I think it was to Netanyahu's advantage to try to create a dynamic where it appears as though [16:03] the war is between Iran and the GCC countries. [16:07] And part of what we saw happen after the February 28th bomb started falling, [16:11] is that Iran did exactly what it said it was going to do, [16:14] which was to launch retaliatory strikes against military facilities or other facilities that are [16:20] connected in some way to the U.S. military, not just in Israel, but also in the Persian Gulf. [16:25] This was a war started by the United States and Israel when Iran was in the middle of negotiating [16:29] and putting on the table terms that went beyond the 2015 JCPOA nuclear agreement under Obama. [16:35] And so, yes, there is a legitimate discussion to be had about some of the places that Iran hit [16:40] in GCC countries. [16:42] Iran's president, Masoud Pazeshkian, actually issued an apology that they say was aimed at collateral [16:48] damage that took place. But what Iran is saying is we will not apologize for striking these [16:53] military facilities. If part of your analysis doesn't involve owning the fact that the United [16:58] States and Israel started this war and that Iran said it was going to do this, then you're not really [17:02] being honest about it. [17:03] Does it matter then that the script or the narrative is shifting or if not shifting from Iran, [17:08] the big enemy in the region, to at least Israel, emboldened by the developments of the last few [17:14] months, being much more brazen about the greater Israel project or much more honest about the greater [17:19] Israel project? At the end of March 2026, Israeli finance minister Bezalus Motrich said, you know, [17:24] this war has to end with different borders, different Israeli borders, and the new Israeli border must be [17:30] the Latani river, which is a change to Lebanon. But does this change the calculus? [17:35] Well, you also have a U.S. ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabee, who appears to believe that when [17:40] you're the ambassador to Israel, you become like an Israeli official. And, you know, he says on Tucker [17:45] Carlson's program under questioning that it's perfectly acceptable for Israel to aspire to a greater Israel [17:52] that extends from the Mediterranean Sea all the way to the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. So we're talking [17:57] about huge swaths of sovereign Arab states that the U.S. ambassador co-signed as a legitimate [18:05] objective for Israel to conquer. So this is not just rhetoric. Benjamin Netanyahu is at the apex [18:12] of his career. He believes that he has a clock ticking on this Trump administration where Israel [18:18] will never again get this level of open support and have a greater ability to manipulate American [18:24] power. And I would imagine that if years from now you and I sit again together, that we'll look back [18:29] and we'll recognize that we are at an epic crossroads in this history. [18:35] Jeremy, you talk about Iraq, but I remember the months of preparation that was done before a single [18:42] boot on the ground stepped in Iraq. That hasn't been done now in the case of Iran at all. And in fact, [18:47] it does seem like a greater effort is being made to criminalize speaking to people on the other side [18:53] of U.S. and Israeli bombs. What does it mean for independent journalism when just purely reporting [18:59] on the other side is seen as an act of treason? I mean, first of all, if you if you're a journalist [19:06] and you don't believe in interviewing all of the major players in a story, then you're not engaged in [19:12] journalism. You're engaged in propaganda. I have never in my quarter of a century in journalism [19:17] seen a greater effort to criminalize and demonize speaking to people on the other side of America's [19:24] wars. You know, American reporters and correspondents interviewed Osama bin Laden. They interviewed Saddam Hussein. [19:32] After October 7th, when I started interviewing senior leaders of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, [19:37] I started being called pro-terrorist and attacked. And more recently, the White House has attacked us [19:46] for interviewing senior Iranian officials and said that I'm engaged in America's last behavior. [19:54] I believe that in a democratic society or in societies that profess to be democratic, [20:02] that the public has a right to understand in a factual and sincere way, what is the other side [20:09] of this? By interviewing Hamas or Islamic Jihad or by interviewing Iranian officials, we gain greater [20:18] insight into who they are, what motivates them. When it comes to Iran, we reported even before the first [20:26] bombs dropped on February 28th exactly what Iran was saying it was going to do. Iran was saying this to an [20:32] extent publicly, but because we had sources, what we published, if you go back and look at it, was exactly [20:39] what happened. It's just basic journalism. But Trump's people started saying at one point in, you know, [20:45] after a few weeks into the bombing of Iran, you know, nobody knew that the Iranians were going to, you know, [20:50] bomb all these places in the Persian Gulf. Yeah. Anyone who was actually paying attention or speaking to Iranian sources [20:57] or doing their job as journalists knew that the Iranians were going to do it because they said it to all of us. [21:02] So, you know, I recognize we're in a moment where there's an attempt to criminalize journalism. [21:08] I realize we're also in a moment where anyone who speaks in defense of the right of Palestinians to [21:16] have their voices heard, or yes, even Iranians, is somehow going to be lumped in with them as though [21:21] you're a partisan supporter of those entities. I reject that. It doesn't bother me because it's so [21:27] contra-intellectual and it's so completely against basic principles of journalism. [21:33] I'm reminded of a letter that was read out at the 1966 Tricontinental Conference, [21:39] which you'll remember was the place- [21:41] I don't remember. I'm not at all. [21:42] I'm not at all. [21:55] I'm not at all. So, in fact, you're currently arguing that we must [21:58] build, form, two, three, many Vietnams if we are to defeat imperialism in the global South. [22:04] As you see, the United States today, under Trump, do you think it's doing this to itself? [22:08] Simultaneously opening multiple fronts left, right, and center, or are we very far away from [22:13] even coming close to seeing the u.s overextending itself well i i i think that there is a an overdose [22:20] on imperial hubris that that has taken place i mean it's also it's also relevant i mean you met [22:25] you mentioned the overextension and you know there's of course the vietnam war but also uh [22:30] the war in afghanistan was an indication of that you know the the united states invades afghanistan [22:36] uh under the notion that they're delivering justice for 9 11 and that it was about al qaeda's [22:41] presence in the country and then it turns into a war against the taliban and eventually the united [22:45] states has to leave and then the taliban comes into power and taliban officials would tell me [22:49] all throughout that war that the problem that you have as americans and it was the same problem the [22:54] soviets have is that we have the time and you have the clocks and i and i think that there's a degree [23:00] to which iran also sees events in that way but there's a flip side to that history too which was [23:07] the the creation of the non-aligned movement uh that that grew out of the post-world war ii era [23:13] and the idea that uh the global south or you know states that were on the other end of imperial [23:20] adventures um would band together and respect one another's sovereignty but to say that we recognize [23:26] we have to deal with the soviet union we have to deal with the united states um but we want to [23:31] maintain our neutrality but also our solidarity among uh each other and i think there are some [23:38] moves toward that in the current landscape in the world right now but a counterforce to that are [23:42] right-wing populist movements that you see spreading in europe in latin america certainly trump is a [23:49] manifestation of that so we're entering a different era of history that on the one hand has great [23:55] excitement about the positive possibilities but on the other hand has very dark representations of old [24:02] ideas of imperial thinking the world is up for grabs again right now and the idea space is quite diverse [24:10] but um you know history has shown time and again that when the poor of the world band together when [24:18] people that are viewed as peasants in the world band together when workers actually become politicized [24:25] you shouldn't underestimate their ability to change history and and i think that imperial forces make [24:30] a huge mistake and it's it's embodied in the palestinian struggle and i think that that's [24:35] that's why i will never sort of abandon ship on the idea that from the bottom up people can win [24:43] jeremy scahill thank you very much for joining us on al jazeera refrain thank you for having me