This Week with George Stephanopoulos Full Broadcast - Sunday, April 12, 2026

[0:00] Here in Pakistan, the U.S. meets face-to-face with Iran for the first time in decades, [0:06] but walks away without a deal to end the war. [0:08] A special edition of This Week from Islamabad and Washington starts right now. [0:14] No deal. [0:15] We go back to the United States having not come to an agreement. [0:18] After a marathon negotiating session, Vice President Vance leaves peace talks, [0:24] with Iran refusing to commit to U.S. demands. [0:27] The simple fact is that we need to see an affirmative commitment [0:31] that they will not seek a nuclear weapon. [0:34] President Trump downplays the efforts to end the war. [0:37] Whether we make a deal or not makes no difference to me. [0:41] As U.S. ships enter the Strait of Hormuz for the first time since the war began, [0:47] Navy destroyers starting mine-clearing operations in the critical oil passageway. [0:52] So how can the shaky two-week ceasefire hold? [0:56] What comes next on the path to end the war? [0:59] I'll speak with GOP Senator Ron Johnson and Democratic Senator Tim Kaine. [1:04] Plus, former CENTCOM commander Joseph Votel on what the U.S. has achieved so far. [1:12] Surprise statement. [1:14] The lies linking me with the disgraceful Jeffrey Epstein need to end today. [1:21] We'll cover all the week's politics and former House Speaker Kevin McCarthy joins our roundtable. [1:26] It's a special thing to be a human and it's a special thing to be on planet Earth. [1:31] The Artemis II crew splashes down to Earth after a historic 10-day mission around the moon. [1:40] From ABC News, a special edition of This Week, here now, Martha Raddatz. [1:46] Good morning and welcome to This Week. We are reporting this morning from Islamabad, Pakistan, [1:53] where Vice President Vance has just wrapped up marathon peace talks with Iran with no deal to [1:59] end the war, now entering its seventh week. After 21 hours of overnight closed-door negotiations with [2:07] Iran mediated by Pakistan, the Vice President emerged to say that the parties had failed to reach an [2:13] agreement, saying Iran was unwilling to make a firm commitment on not seeking nuclear weapons. [2:20] And with that, the U.S. delegation heads back to Washington and a fragile two-week ceasefire announced [2:27] this week will now be put to the test. We will cover the very latest, both here and in Washington, [2:33] but we begin with the state of the talks and what comes next in this conflict. [2:37] The bad news is that we have not reached an agreement. [2:40] This morning, no breakthrough in talks as the U.S. and Iran failed to hammer out a permanent [2:46] resolution to the war in Iran. And I think that's bad news for Iran [2:49] much more than it's bad news for the United States of America. We've made very clear what our red lines [2:54] are, what things we're willing to accommodate them on, and what things we're not willing to accommodate [2:58] them on. And we've made that as clear as we possibly could. And they have chosen not to accept our terms. [3:05] The two sides meeting behind closed doors for 21 hours, working well into the night to find a [3:10] resolution, but yielding no progress. The president told us, [3:14] you need to come here in good faith and make your best effort to get a deal. We did that. And [3:20] unfortunately, we weren't able to make any headway. Iran's nuclear ambitions remaining a key sticking [3:26] point. The simple fact is that we need to see an affirmative commitment that they will not [3:32] seek a nuclear weapon and they will not seek the tools that would enable them to quickly achieve [3:37] a nuclear weapon. With Iran's Speaker of the Parliament and lead negotiator [3:42] posting that the opposing side ultimately failed to gain the trust of the Iranian delegation [3:48] in this round of negotiations. America has understood our logic and principles, [3:53] and now it's time for it to decide whether it can earn our trust or not. Vice President Vance, [3:59] reaffirming the United States position as he left Islamabad. We leave here with a very simple proposal, [4:06] a method of understanding that is our final and best offer. We'll see if the Iranians accept it. [4:12] As the marathon negotiations were wrapping, President Trump attending a UFC fight in Miami [4:19] with Secretary of State Marco Rubio and dismissing the effort Saturday. Whether we [4:25] make a deal or not makes no difference to me. The trilateral effort mediated by Pakistan was the [4:31] highest level face-to-face meetings between the United States and Iran in 47 years. The breakdown in [4:38] talks now putting the fragile temporary two-week truce agreed upon late Tuesday to the test, [4:44] with differences in those agreed upon terms emerging throughout the week. The administration [4:49] claiming Iran had agreed to open the Strait of Hormuz. President Trump posting on social media Saturday [4:56] that the U.S. is now starting the process of clearing out the Strait of Hormuz as a favor to countries all [5:02] over the world. The Pentagon said two Navy destroyers were clearing mines. In the days since the announced [5:09] agreement, few ships have crossed the passage, which remains under Iranian control. And on the key [5:15] sticking point of Iran's nuclear ambitions, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth insisting this week the [5:21] U.S. will secure Iran's enriched nuclear material. We know exactly what they have, and they know that, [5:27] and they will either give it to us, which the president has laid out. They'll give it to us [5:32] voluntarily. We'll get it. We'll take it. We'll take it out. The temporary truce came under immense [5:37] pressure. Just before Tuesday night's deadline to Iran, Trump stunningly said, [5:43] a whole civilization will die tonight, never to be brought back again. I don't want that to happen, [5:49] but it probably will. A lot to discuss. I'm joined now by GOP Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin. [5:56] Good morning to you, Senator. You have been a supporter of this war, but after 21 hours of really [6:02] historic negotiations, there was no deal cut. And it's basically, according to J.D. Vance, [6:08] take it or leave it. What's your reaction? Well, good morning, Martha. Well, first of all, [6:14] I'm not supportive of the war with Iran, but that's because Iran declared war on America 47 years ago. [6:21] They have blood on their hands of American soldiers, hundreds, probably thousands of them. [6:28] But it's the ayatollahs, it's the regime that declared war on America, not the Iranian people. [6:33] So we're not at war with the Iranian people. We're trying to end the state-sponsored terrorism. [6:40] We're trying to end the threat, the menace that Iran represents not only to America, but to world [6:45] security and peace. So I'm supportive of ending the Iranian regime's ability to threaten [6:53] world peace and security. And what's your reaction to what happened here [7:00] in Islamabad with no deal? What do you think happens now? I'm not surprised at all. [7:09] The ayatollahs, even though they have been so degraded in terms of their capabilities, [7:17] nobody thought this would be easy. They've been preparing for this for 47 years. They have [7:22] multiple layers. They've got 200,000 people in the IRGC, 600,000 people in the Basij police force. [7:29] They are brutal. By the way, this is exactly what nationwide gun control results in. [7:35] The Iranian people are completely disarmed. It's going to be very difficult for them to rise up. [7:40] And so it's a very difficult situation. Now, I hope, I hope that President Trump is successful [7:46] in this, because if we could just imagine the world if the ayatollahs, the brutal Iranian regime [7:52] is no longer in power. That's what we're trying to achieve. [7:55] The president was in a UFC fight in Florida with Marco Rubio during the negotiations. [8:03] He was getting updates. But earlier in the day, he said whether we make a deal or not makes no [8:08] difference to me. And the reason is because we've won. It makes no difference? [8:13] Well, first of all, we will not have won until we have completely defamed the Iranian regime. [8:23] We have to make sure. I thought it was very interesting in President Trump's address to the [8:28] nation when he spoke to the families of Dover, how apparently to a person they said finish the job. [8:35] And to me, finishing the job is to make sure that Iran can never produce a nuclear weapon, [8:41] they can no longer enrich uranium, that hopefully we can remove that enriched uranium, [8:45] that they can no longer hold the Strait of Hormuz hostage, that they can no longer brutalize the [8:52] Iranian people, they can no longer be a sponsor of state terror. So we have to finish the job. [8:59] Again, there's multiple ways of potentially doing it, short-term, long-term. There are multiple [9:06] avenues we can approach here. But we have not yet finished the job. [9:09] Meanwhile, we have 50,000 troops in harm's way right now. We have Gulf allies in harm's way. [9:19] We have gas prices spiking, oil barrels, the price raised there. President Trump was asked about [9:27] people who are not fans of the war. Asked specifically, what do you say to Americans [9:32] who are not fans of the war? And he said, they're foolish because the war is about one thing. Iran [9:38] cannot have a nuclear weapon. So what would you say to those Americans who are sitting at home, [9:44] seeing those 50,000 troops in harm's way, seeing gas prices spike, and listening to you saying how [9:51] complicated this could be and that it could continue for a long time? [9:55] Well, first of all, it's a good answer. That's exactly the reason why we have to make sure [10:01] the Iranian regime is ended. You know, whether it's President Obama, President Biden, President [10:08] Trump, they all said we can never allow Iran to become a nuclear power. The problem with what [10:13] President Obama and Biden did is they coddled the regime. They funneled billions of dollars, [10:18] strengthened the regime, allowed them to sponsor state terror, allowed them to continue [10:22] enriching uranium. And at some point in time, we had to act before we couldn't, before Iran became a [10:29] nuclear power, before they had so many missiles and so many drones that this kind of action would [10:33] have devastated the region. It's already done enough damage. So again, I know it's a tough decision [10:38] for President Trump because he knew it wouldn't be easy. And it's not easy. And it could be longer term [10:44] here. But I don't believe it's going to require boots on the ground, you know, potentially assets to help [10:49] the Iranian people. Other people eventually completely destroy the regime. But let's face it, [10:54] this regime is incredibly weakened. You know, all their bold statements reminds me of Baghdad bomb. [11:00] You know, they are not in a position of strength right now. And we also have to make sure that China [11:05] and Russia no longer help Iran. I heard a very disturbing report that apparently China is going to be [11:11] sending man pads to Iran. We need to express in no uncertain terms, China had better not do that. [11:18] You know, you know, we certainly have the capability of blocking oil from the Strait of Hormuz going to [11:24] China as well. So again, we have plenty, plenty of power in this situation and we need to use it. [11:32] Senator, I want to go back to you saying that President Trump had a good answer [11:40] about what do you say to Americans who are not a fan of the war. He did say they're foolish. [11:44] Do you agree they're foolish not to be fans of the war? [11:46] No, no. The answer he gave that I agreed with is we cannot allow Iran to become a nuclear power. [11:54] They have missile technology. All they would have to do is park a barge in international waters off [11:59] the shores of the U.S., lob one of those missiles, have a high altitude nuclear blast, an EMP event. [12:06] We could wipe out America's electrical grid. That would be existential threat to America. [12:11] So Iran represents an existential threat to America. That's why Obama, Biden and Trump said [12:17] we can't allow them to become a nuclear power, but they're racing toward it. You know, Martha, [12:23] if Iran didn't want to be attacked, if they wanted to be left alone, all they had to do was say, [12:27] we're not going to enrich uranium. We'll allow inspectors in to make sure that we're not doing [12:32] it. Because they didn't allow that, because they allowed their economy to become devastated, [12:37] just proves the point that they are they were absolutely dedicated to become a nuclear power [12:41] and threaten and potentially destroy America. We had to take that threat seriously. [12:45] But, Senator, they're not doing that. They're not stopping. The strait is essentially closed. [12:51] They still have that enriched uranium. So what do you do now? You yourself did not like the [12:56] president threatening civilian power grids and structures. So if the ceasefire fails, what do [13:03] they go after? What do they do? [13:05] Again, you keep degrading the Iranian regime. I think it's interesting that you have [13:12] Iranians actually calling in airstrikes against some of their leadership. It's remarkable the [13:17] amount of destruction we've already brought to the Iranian regime without really harming that much [13:23] civilian infrastructure. So, again, I think we continue down that path. We make sure that we deter [13:28] China and Russia from helping out Iran. We continue to weaken the regime until they are no longer [13:33] effective and the Iranian people can reclaim their own liberty and take over Iran themselves. [13:39] Again, it's going to be a long-term project. [13:41] And that could go on for a long time. [13:42] I never thought this would be easy. I don't think Trump thought it'd be easy. [13:45] It could take a long time. But, again, the threat was there and the threat was growing. [13:50] And at some point in time, we had to act before we no longer could. That's why I supported what the [13:55] President Trump, when he made an incredibly difficult decision to finally act. But now we have to [14:00] finish the job. And that may take some time. And it could be complicated. And it could be risky. [14:04] There's no guarantees here. But we could not allow Iran to become a nuclear power, threaten [14:10] the region, threaten the world. [14:11] Okay. Thank you very much for joining us this morning, Senator. Appreciate it. [14:17] Have a good day. [14:19] Let's bring in Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia, a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee [14:25] and Foreign Relations Committee. Good morning to you, Senator. You saw these negotiations break [14:32] down. J.D. Vance said they presented the final offer and then he went home. What is your reaction? [14:37] Well, Martha, we need to extend the ceasefire. We shouldn't be in this war to begin with. [14:45] What people need to realize is we had a diplomatic control over Iran not seeking a nuclear weapon [14:52] that Donald Trump decided to tear up. And we had an open Strait of Hormuz and reasonable gas prices [14:59] up until February 27, when Donald Trump launched this war without the support of allies, the American [15:05] public or Congress. And so the ceasefire, while it is not perfectly holding, we need to find a way to [15:13] extend it past April 21. Both parties, when they left the negotiation in Pakistan, said the door wasn't [15:22] closed to additional negotiation. And so even an imperfect ceasefire is better than resuming full war. [15:29] I'm going to force a vote on another war powers resolution in Congress this week in the Senate, [15:35] because returning to full war will just compound the suffering of American troops and the American [15:42] citizenry who are suffering under a very, very devastated economy because of what Donald Trump has [15:47] done. You heard J.D. Vance, however, say it was a final offer. Whether he's open to talking to them [15:56] again is something different than saying this is the final officer offer. We're welcome for you to come [16:01] back and accept it or not. The Iranians have stood firm. They walked away from here as well, saying [16:07] they would like to get closer to the American side. This seems like an absolute red line for President [16:14] Trump. I'm not sure what President Trump's red lines are, because they seem to change all the time. [16:21] His rationale for the war has changed all the time. You know, the threat to bomb the entire [16:27] civilization and 90 minutes before that. OK, we're not going to bomb the entire civilization. And I [16:33] don't know exactly what the offer was that J.D. Vance put on the table. He had a brief press conference [16:38] and he said we need to make sure that Iran doesn't get a nuclear weapon. But Martha, as you know, Iran [16:45] entered into an agreement with the United States and other nations, both allies of the U.S. and China and [16:50] Russia in 2016 reaffirming that they would never purchase, seek or acquire a nuclear weapon. Donald [16:59] Trump tore that up. He tore up the restrictions on uranium production. He tore up the restrictions on [17:06] centrifuge production. He tore up the deal that allowed intrusive inspections in Iran. So J.D. [17:14] Vance says now that, well, Iran won't agree to what they agreed to 10 years ago. [17:19] I'm sure Iran wonders, if we agree to it, will the United States tear it up again and bomb [17:25] our civilian infrastructure and kill schoolchildren and engage in an assassination campaign against [17:30] our leadership? This is not going to be an easy negotiation, because the last negotiation [17:35] that led to a control of Iran's nuclear program, the U.S. made the decision to tear it up and walk [17:41] away from the deal. I think that decision by President Trump to tear up a diplomatic deal will go [17:46] down in history as one of the worst decisions in the foreign policy space ever made by an American [17:52] president. If you make diplomacy impossible, you tend to make war inevitable. [17:57] And the war itself, one of the things you just heard Senator Johnson talk about is what he said now, [18:06] whether, you know, they tore up that or not. He said now they are, Iran, an existential threat. [18:13] Do you do not believe it's an existential threat or there was an imminent threat? [18:18] There was no imminent threat. They are a regional threat. The regime is bad actors for sure. [18:27] The tragedy is the U.S. and Iran were friends in World War II. We were allies [18:32] until the U.S. toppled the Iranian government in 1953. And since then, it's been back and forth between [18:37] the U.S. and Iran for not, not 47 years, but for 80 years. And if war was the answer, we would have [18:45] found it before now. They are a regional threat, but they posed no imminent threat to the United States. [18:51] I'm on both the armed services and foreign relations committees. I'm in the classified facility at the, [18:57] at the Capitol all the time. And there was zero evidence of an imminent threat to the homeland from Iran. [19:05] There was suggestion that if Israel attacked Iran, Iran might then turn its attention to U.S. forces [19:12] in the region, our, our 40,000 permanent forces that we have. We could have, we should have talked [19:18] Israel out of attacking so as to minimize risk to our own forces. Instead, we accepted the notion that [19:24] Israel would attack, but there was no imminent threat to the United States from Iran from a nuclear [19:30] program for their ballistic missile program or for their other military activities. That doesn't mean that [19:36] they're a good guy. They're a regional threat, but they weren't a threat to the U.S. homeland. [19:42] Senator, if we could just close on this. Trump has continued to blast NATO allies who are not supporting [19:47] opening up the Strait of Hormuz. The president can't pull out of NATO, of course, but he could pull troops out. [19:55] Are you concerned about that? Yes. I mean, the president has been trashing NATO for years long [20:02] before he was president. And in this term, the tariffs that he has imposed on our allies, [20:08] the language that he uses calling Canada a NATO ally, a 51st state threatening the attack of Greenland, [20:15] a part of Denmark, another NATO ally. He's really hurt NATO. And then he starts a war without consulting with [20:23] them that has a huge effect on NATO allies' economy and then gets mad that they won't join in. I mean, [20:30] it's like you don't suck or punch somebody in a bar and then blame your buddies when they don't join [20:36] the fight with you. I mean, if the president wanted the support of allies, he should have [20:42] valued allies and respected them rather than putting tariffs on their economies and trash talking them. [20:47] Okay. I'm going to stop you there. And I appreciate you coming on this morning. Thanks so much, [20:54] Senator. When we come back, General Joseph Votel, the former CENTCOM commander, [20:59] tells us what may be next. Operation Epic Fury was a historic and overwhelming victory on the [21:13] battlefield, a capital V military victory. Together with our Israeli partners, America's military achieved [21:22] every single objective on plan, on schedule, exactly as laid out from day one. Defense Secretary Pete [21:32] Hegseth this week declaring victory in the Iran war. But what has the U.S. achieved in its military [21:38] aims? For more on that, I'm joined now by former CENTCOM commander General Joseph Votel. It's great to [21:44] see you, General Votel. So, no deal. What do you expect to happen now in the coming weeks? [21:49] Yeah, thanks, Martha. It's great to be with you. Well, I think hopefully what's going to happen is [21:57] behind the scenes they will continue works to try to get back into some type of negotiations. I think [22:02] that's really, really important. And at the same time, I expect the U.S. military to continue to [22:07] maintain its presence. Of course, we heard from Admiral Cooper yesterday that they have begun a very [22:13] deliberate process to open a route through the Straits of Hormuz. And I would expect that they would [22:17] continue to do that moving forward. And I want to talk about that in a minute. But I want to talk about [22:23] the overall performance and what we have done so far. The military, of course, has done an incredible [22:28] job with what they were tasked to do. But you have heard the president say make threats about civilian [22:35] power grids, civilian sites, antiquities, things like that. Would the military carry out those kinds of orders? [22:43] Well, I think our military leaders have a process by which they evaluate targets to assess the military [22:51] value of those. And if there are concerns, then we have the ability to raise that to our civilian leaders [22:57] and express those types of concerns. Moreover, I think we have to be concerned about targeting those [23:04] types of targets that would in turn cause Iran to target similar type targets of our partners across [23:12] the region. So I think it's I think it's really important that we do very deliberate planning here. [23:17] I expect the military is doing that and that we we focus on those things that are most [23:23] critical to reducing Iran's ability to make war and to threaten the region. [23:31] You heard Pete Hegseth say basically the war is won, a military victory with a capital V. [23:38] Do you think the war has been won? [23:40] Well, I think I think we will let the secretary's words speak to themselves. I mean, certainly [23:48] watching what the CENTCOM forces have done over the last several weeks has been really impressive. [23:53] And there's been substantial dismantlement of Iran's war-making capability. It's not absolute. [23:59] They still have the ability to launch some missiles, some drones. And, of course, [24:03] they're still threatening in the Straits of Hormuz. So those are those are issues that will have to be [24:10] either addressed in negotiations or through perhaps future military action. But certainly the performance [24:19] of our military forces has been substantial. And I think it's significantly reduced the war-making [24:25] capability of the of the regime. But you would probably be the first to say those are tactical [24:31] victories. And again, they have done an incredible job doing that. But strategically, [24:38] they haven't really reached their goal, as we have seen here in Pakistan, because of the nuclear material. [24:44] Well, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think we have to this has certainly has to be evaluated by our [24:52] civilian leaders in light of our strategic objectives. And but what the military has done is largely [24:59] move forward substantially against the military objectives that that were identified for them at the [25:05] beginning of this. But as we know, war is a is a political state here. And it involves more than [25:10] just the military. It involves our diplomacy. It involves our economics. It involves the power of [25:15] our information. And so all of those capabilities have to be brought to bear for us to, I think, [25:21] you know, declare some end state. [25:23] AMNA NAWAZ-PTAG Seth has also said, if we don't get that nuclear material, [25:28] our troops may go in and get it somehow will go in and get it. Talk about the difficulty of a mission like [25:35] that. [25:36] AMNA NAWAZ- Well, you know, there's there's a lot that our military can do. And without [25:42] getting into a whole lot of details, you know, we certainly have the capacity to do this. [25:46] But an operation of that nature, well, you know, well into Iran would be significant. [25:52] We not only have to put, you know, the specialty troops on the ground that we require to operate [25:57] in that environment, we have to secure them. We have to make sure over the top of them we had air cover. [26:03] And then, of course, we have to be prepared to reinforce and sustain them for a period of time. [26:08] This is likely not going to be something we will be able to go in and do in a period of darkness. [26:13] It will take days and perhaps longer to, you know, to get control of that. [26:17] And then we have to transport all of that material out of Iran to some safe location. [26:22] So I think it's fair to say that that's a significant operation, [26:27] and it will require a lot of resources and a lot of focus and a lot of time to accomplish. [26:33] And back to the strait, if we can. Those destroyers apparently went through yesterday. [26:40] We're trying to clear out mines. How successful can that be? How difficult would it be [26:46] if Iran does not open that strait for us to do that? [26:50] Well, again, I think this is within the military capabilities of the United States. [26:59] And I think what we saw yesterday is the first part of what will be a very deliberate effort [27:05] to clear routes through the Straits of Hormuz that can be proofed and then hopefully build some [27:11] confidence with commercial shippers to begin moving their ships in and out of the Gulf. [27:18] And that all takes time. And I think we're approaching this properly and very deliberately [27:23] and making sure that we set the conditions for success if that's what we have to do. [27:28] Okay. Thanks, General Votel. It sounds very complicated. We appreciate you joining us this morning. [27:34] Thank you, Martha. Good to be with you. [27:37] And let's bring in our panel, the New Yorker's Susan Glasser and NPR's host, Mary Louise Kelly. [27:43] And Susan, let me talk to you first. Earlier this week, again, we heard PTAG Seth declaring victory, [27:50] saying victory with a capital V guided by the hand of God. You wrote this week, if this is victory, [27:57] I would hate to see what failure looks like. Yeah, Martha. I mean, it's a really striking box [28:03] to a certain extent of President Trump's own making. You have the specter of J.D. Vance flying all the way [28:10] to Pakistan in order to negotiate first and foremost on the reopening of the Strait of Hormuz, [28:17] which, of course, was open before the conflict. And in that sense, it's very hard to see the [28:24] administration claiming it's this enormous victory when what they're negotiating over is to try to get [28:30] the world and the global economy is suffering as a direct result of this back to the status quo ante. [28:37] And right now, that seems like a very distant goal. And Mary Louise, do you think there's any chance of [28:45] resurrecting these talks? You've heard that J.D. Vance basically said, take it or leave it. [28:50] The Iranians said they'd like to get back together. Do you think that'll happen? [28:55] I certainly hope so. I mean, we certainly have to all be rooting for peace. This was round one [29:01] of diplomacy in what we knew was going to be a really hard set of circumstances to produce a great, [29:09] big deal out of. So we still have until April 21st for the ceasefire to hold. And what a ceasefire [29:16] it can do is create some space. The killing stops. Most of the fighting stops. We obviously, [29:23] you know, there's there's still a lot of fire going in this ceasefire, but it hopefully creates some [29:27] space for diplomacy to pick back up. But the challenge has been that they started so far apart. [29:34] There was no trust. And it's that's going to be a very high hurdle if the starting point remains [29:42] in this 10 point plan that the Iranians put on the table that the U.S. correctly has said that we [29:47] can't work with. And the Iranians feel emboldened. It's it's a very high mountain to climb. But there [29:55] is still time. Susan, we've heard a lot about regime change. Obviously, a lot of senior leaders [30:03] were killed and you had negotiators here in Islamabad from Iran. Are they different than the regime [30:10] before? What do you see in terms of regime change? Yeah, I mean, I this is a remarkable [30:16] conversation even to be having in many respects, Martha. I mean, it's it's almost amazing to me that [30:23] we have a situation where the president is claiming total regime change when what he's done [30:27] is swap out one supreme leader named Khamenei for another supreme leader named Khamenei, except he's [30:34] the son younger and reportedly much more hard line than the father. And of course, also presumably [30:41] embittered by the fact that the United States and his partner Israel have killed his his father and [30:47] other members of his family. And so, you know, Iran's president, same leader it was before the war. [30:54] You know, again, this is a theocracy that's been remarkably durable. And, you know, it was a kind [31:02] of asymmetric war in which survival of this government itself was a form of victory for Iran. And so, [31:10] you know, it's it's it's not a claim that holds up to real argument. And that's the tragedy for me, [31:16] Martha, of this moment is that the president started out saying to the people of Iran, help is on the way. [31:21] Remember, there was a terrible mass killing of thousands of protesters at the beginning of 2026 [31:27] that in some ways was the precipitating event here. And yet there's a possibility, and I hope it doesn't [31:33] come to that, where it's the people of Iran end up in a situation where their government may be even [31:39] more entrenched as a result of this military conflict. If I could just jump on that, you have a [31:45] situation where Iran has now proved to itself and the world it can stand up to the greatest military [31:52] in the world, the most powerful military the world has ever seen in the United States, also the most [31:56] powerful military in the region, where to your point, Susan, the regime may well feel emboldened, [32:02] where Iran's regional proxies have been standing up. We're saying that's what we're seeing on this other [32:08] front in Lebanon. And yes, their missile program has been set back. Yes, many Iranians have been killed. [32:16] Yes, they have taken massive hits. But it is they've gained the leverage of the Strait of Hormuz, which they [32:24] didn't have before, at least not in a proven way that will be both strategically and economically hugely [32:31] helpful to Iran going forward. Mary Louise, I want to you and I have both been in Iran together. We have [32:39] talked to the people. I want to go back to the people on the ground. Do you see any potential for that [32:45] population to have the ability to rise up at this point, as President Trump said he basically wants [32:52] them to do? Look, one can be a journalist and be objective and also hope for Iranians to have the [33:00] government that they deserve someday, a government in which Iranians enjoy free speech. And that feels [33:08] still a very long way away today. You know, one of the tragedies of this is that it is hard to see [33:17] that ordinary Iranians are not much farther away from being able to rise up than they were [33:24] before prior to February 28th and the start of this. And that and that the economy is going to be, [33:33] you know, further in great difficulty as a result of this. So, yeah, that that is very challenging. [33:40] We don't have a reporter on the ground. I don't think you have a reporter on the ground inside Iran [33:45] and ABC. It's very hard to know what is on people's minds. But as our colleagues talk to people coming [33:51] out at the borders in Turkey, at the borders in Iraq with Iran and describing what they see and what [33:58] this experience has been like of these last few weeks, people are still terrified to speak [34:04] and describing great fear for what will happen for their country and their families in the weeks ahead. [34:11] And Susan, we're running out of time here, but I do want to have you close this about [34:15] how you think this will end. Yeah, I mean, look, on some level, [34:20] Donald Trump has already signaled that he's probably not very interested in resuming full-scale [34:26] conflict here. The economic price, not only to the United States, but the global economy [34:31] ratcheting up here. It might be the off ramp that he's taken of the ceasefire. I think the Iranians [34:38] know that, though. That's part of why you saw very little movement in those negotiations is because I [34:44] think there's been a very clear signal from Washington that Donald Trump may have reached the limits of his [34:49] interest in conducting this conflict. A lot to watch in the coming weeks. Thanks to you both. When we [34:55] come back, we'll throw it back to Washington and my co-anchor Jonathan Karl. The lies linking me [35:04] with the disgraceful Jeffrey Epstein need to end today. The individuals lying about me are devoid of ethical [35:16] standards, humility and respect. I've never been friends with Epstein. Donald and I were invited to [35:26] the same parties as Epstein from time to time. First Lady Melania Trump there this week with a surprise [35:36] statement at the White House denying any relationship whatsoever with Jeffrey Epstein. Let's bring in the [35:41] roundtable. Former DNC chair Donna Brazile, SCOTUS blog editor Sarah Isger, the author of the excellent [35:48] new book out Tuesday called Last Branch Standing and former House Speaker Kevin McCarthy making his debut [35:56] here on the roundtable. So let's start with what the news just out of out of Pakistan and out of out of the [36:04] president. He's now saying that he's imposing a blockade on the Strait of Hormuz. Two lengthy [36:11] statements on Truth Social one saying at an appropriate moment we are fully locked and loaded and our [36:17] military will finish up the little that is left of Iran. So Kevin what what what do you what do you [36:23] make of this. Are we back to war or. No I don't think we're back to war but I think this is very smart. [36:28] If Iran thinks they can control the strait and people are just going to pay them. But President Trump is [36:32] saying no no ship gets out of there. You're not going to pay Iran. And for anyone who thinks look I give JD [36:40] credit. A negotiation like this isn't going to solve on the first time. All great negotiations you have to [36:47] walk away. And every day America is going to get stronger because for the first time now our destroyers are in the [36:53] strait taking the mines out. This is putting Iran in a weaker position. The president is very clear ships won't go [37:00] through unless all ships go through. And each day that we take the mines out and that it shows [37:06] America with JD you're not going to have a nuclear weapon or we're not having a deal. That's very clear [37:13] of a red line. If you want to get to a peace this is what you have to do. I mean in fact sir the [37:20] Iranians were getting stuff through the strait. They blocked everybody else. And I'm told they had sold like a million [37:25] barrels of oil since the since the war at a much higher price. So there have been I've seen serious [37:32] people proposing this for weeks the idea of cutting off the strait. Yeah I mean look I think when we look [37:38] back on this moment we will not talk about the individual war here or the individual choices about [37:44] the straits of Hormuz. I think we will look back and see a quarter century of America trying to solve a problem [37:50] of the Middle East and instead managing a problem in the Middle East. And that this war looks once again [37:56] like an attempt to solve the problem by Donald Trump. He thought he could do it differently or better [38:01] than his predecessors for the last 25 years. And here we are and it looks a whole lot like where we started. [38:06] Donna it was interesting seeing you had JD Vance who had not really been a part of the you know central to [38:11] the war effort as far as we can tell being sent on this mission to lead the delegation. Historic by the way this [38:17] is the highest level talks between the Iranians and the Americans since 1979. At the very moment that he came [38:24] out to announce no deal take a look at this split screen. We had the secretary of state Marco Rubio on the [38:32] right there at the UFC fight with the president seeming to be enjoying this the championship fight while the [38:39] president vice president United States was announcing no deal. What do you what are the stakes here for JD Vance. [38:46] Well the stakes are very high clearly because JD is the vice president is known as someone who is [38:53] a peacemaker. He he's not for the so-called forever wars in the Middle East and elsewhere. I thought it was [39:00] like a dog sniffing exercise where you know you finally got a chance to you know take a look at the other side [39:06] uh and and to begin to put all of the cards on the table. I agree. I think this is round one. [39:12] Uh I'm what I what am I watching right now. I'm watching some of the other key indicators. The United [39:18] States military. Will we resume bombing. I'm watching Israel. Will they resume bombing in Iran. I'm also [39:25] watching you know what happens with this blockade. Will the United States finally get some of our Gulf allies [39:30] and European allies to join us. And of course I'm watching what happens on Tuesday when Israel sits [39:36] down with Lebanon. Will they begin to figure out. Yeah. How to stop the war. But no this was a dog [39:42] sniffing exercise where you size up the other side and then hopefully you go back to the table and begin [39:47] to some serious negotiations. A lot of sniffing. This was a very long meeting. It went on. It was an all nighter. [39:53] But Kevin you said something interesting right before we came on the air here. That Trump loves [39:58] that image of him being at the UFC fight while you know the talks are underway. This is why this is [40:04] where I think people misinterpret the president. He's communicating directly to Iran. When he says the [40:11] things he does in the tweets they're not for you or I. They're to them. So he's telling them they're not [40:16] getting through. What he was telling Iran and those negotiators right then. I don't have to have a deal. [40:22] I'm very comfortable. And where is he. He's in a fight match that's tough that he shows people can [40:28] win. And he's got Marco right next to him. If that's part of the negotiation that gives America a [40:34] stronger hand. If you're Iran and you're thinking that this guy doesn't care. This guy's tough. This [40:41] guy's going to shut down what money or oil we're getting. And now they're taking the mines out and we [40:46] don't have a navy to replace them. Maybe I should negotiate. And if JD said no nuclear [40:52] weapons and he's willing to walk away. But he doesn't want this. I mean. But the bottom line [40:57] is the military is fully still present in the Persian Gulf. Exactly. That puts a fear on. But I mean [41:03] does. I mean are we going to be back in a war. Is the ceasefire going to be over. Or is this. [41:08] That's that's that's part of negotiations to end it. You've got to show all your. The fear. The fear of the military [41:16] is almost greater than when you use it. Because if we wipe everything out they have no more fear. [41:22] He's showing greater strength that they can't have money now. They can't control the strait. And [41:27] you can't have a nuclear weapon. You should. But beyond symbolism which I understand you got. [41:32] The American people are tired and frustrated with this war. They're tired of gas prices. They're tired [41:38] of the uncertainty. So there's some domestic risk that the president has to also take into consideration. [41:45] He needs an off ramp. He needs to figure out what constitute victory so that the American people [41:51] we're proud of the military. But the American people want to see some ending results and a [41:56] strategy going forward. But this is exactly why your point was so spot on. Iran knows that Trump [42:02] has a domestic problem with this war and with gas prices. He needed to communicate to them that he was [42:08] not going to cave. He was not in a weaker position here. And he's as you said quite comfortable with his [42:14] domestic position. It was also wild to see him go after Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens, [42:18] Megyn Kelly. Well it's a day ending in life. So I want to quickly touch on the other extraordinary [42:25] statement. Melania Trump comes out suddenly with no warning and talks about Epstein. I'm told the [42:32] White House nobody in the West Wing had any idea that she was going to do this. The president himself [42:36] told the New York Times he didn't know that she was going to do this. Welcome to being a campaign [42:41] operative. Anyone who has done this for a living is very familiar with the spouse who sits on Twitter [42:46] and sees random accounts saying negative things that they don't think are true and says I want to go [42:51] out and defend this. And you're like no ma'am we are not doing that. That would step on the message [42:56] etc. etc. What you saw was the team lose. You know if the Streisand effect is when you file a lawsuit [43:02] that brings more attention to something. The Melania effect is when finally Epstein is out of the news. [43:08] You have an entire war in the Middle East and you're like no no please let's talk more about [43:13] Epstein. It had finally faded away. I mean at least from public and now we're told search engine [43:20] search traffic online. As we talk about all of the emails that she sent that are in the file. I mean [43:25] this is the worst possible decision. And I think that's precisely why the first lady decided that it [43:30] was time for her to clear the air to put her language out there. For example in 1998 she met the [43:36] president with another friend at the Kit Kat club. She wanted to put her story out in her own voice [43:42] and she also said something I thought was very important. She said please allow the survivors to [43:46] come on the oath and testify and tell their story. So I thought it was good on her part to get out there [43:52] and clean the air. We don't have much time left but I want the allegations against Eric Swalwell which [43:57] have not been independently confirmed by ABC. He's denied them all. But serious sexual misconduct [44:03] allegations. And now you have a you know an army of Democrats abandoning his his campaign for [44:11] governor. He was the leading candidate a Democratic candidate for governor. And now he's facing calls [44:16] to drop out from people like Nancy Pelosi. Listen let me be very clear. I tried to get rid of Swalwell [44:23] six eight years ago. When I got the briefing when I became leader with the FBI. Yeah. Nancy Pelosi was in [44:29] the room. I turned to her and said how can you keep her on Intel. Intel is a select committee that only [44:35] the leaders put on that you know all the secrets that the members do not. But I made a motion about [44:40] sexual misconduct allegations or. It was a combination with the Chinese spine led to all that. [44:45] Every member in Congress knows not to not to let any young staffer get around Swalwell or Matt Gaetz. [44:53] It. It's it's not a secret there. There's a reason why you didn't want those two people around. [44:58] He was the leading candidate for governor. He probably could have won the primary and gotten [45:02] there. But this all came forward. And these young women deserve justice. I agree. Don't you drop out. [45:08] His campaign is in a free fall right now with top staffers leaving. And let me just say it is [45:14] as someone who knows at least one of the victims that have come forward. I'm very concerned. Thank you [45:20] Donna. Up next a look at the remarkable Artemis 2 mission and we'll send it back to Martha in Islamabad. [45:26] We're back in a moment. [45:27] Use integrity splashdown sending post landing command now. Splashdown confirmed. Copy splashdown waiting on VLDR. [45:38] Splashdown confirmed at 7 0 7 p.m central time, 5 0 7 p.m pacific time. From the pages of Jules Verne to a [45:47] modern day mission to the moon, a new chapter of the exploration of our celestial neighbor is complete. [45:52] Integrity's astronauts back on earth. That was the moment when the Artemis 2 crew returned home to [46:01] earth after their historic journey around the moon. While we are here on earth amid divisions and attempts [46:08] to end a war, we saw remarkable images this week of the beauty of our planet and the moments that bring [46:14] us together. And lift off the crew of Artemis 2 now bound for the moon. In a triumph of human achievement, [46:24] the 10 day Artemis 2 mission shattered a 56 year old record for the farthest distance from earth ever [46:31] traveled by humans. Those astronauts splashing down safely back at home Friday night. Splashdown confirmed. [46:39] During their historic flyby of the far side of the moon and capturing those stunning images of our [46:45] planet in the distance, the crew shared a poignant moment captivating all of us back on earth. [46:52] A number of years ago, isn't it? That loved one, the late wife of mission commander Reed Weissman, [47:04] Carol, who died in 2020 of cancer, leaving Weissman to raise their two daughters. The Artemis 2 team [47:12] suggesting they name one of the craters of the moon after Carol. It's a bright spot. [47:32] The four astronauts sharing a long emotional embrace. Artemis bringing humanity together to [47:44] marvel at our closest celestial neighbor and serving as a reminder of what we can do on earth when we [47:51] are focused on exploration rather than division. Beautiful. And that's all for us today from Islamabad. [47:59] Stay tuned to ABC news for the latest on the war in Iran. Thanks for sharing part of your Sunday with [48:05] us. Be sure to catch world news tonight and have a great day.