The Transcribed Interview of Karine Jean-Pierre

[0:09] oversight and government reform under the authority granted to it pursuant to House Rule 10. [0:13] Accordingly, House Rule 10 grants the committee broad jurisdiction for the committee to conduct [0:18] investigations of any matter at any time. This interview was requested by Chairman James Comer [0:23] as part of the committee's investigation into President Biden's alleged mental and physical [0:27] decline, the Biden White House's efforts to hide that from the American people, and any [0:32] unauthorized executive actions. Can the witness please state her name and spell her last name for [0:37] the record? Sure. Karine Jean-Pierre. Last name is spelled J-E-A-N hyphen P-I-E-R-R-E. [0:45] Thank you. On behalf of the committee, I want to thank Ms. Jean-Pierre for appearing here today. [0:50] The committee appreciates your appearance for the interview. My name is Jake Greenberg, [0:54] and I am Chief Counsel for Investigations for Chairman Comer. Under the Committee on Oversight [0:59] and Government Reform's rules, you are allowed to have counsel present to advise you during this [1:04] interview. You have counsel representing you in a personal capacity present with you today. [1:08] Yes, I do. Will counsel please identify themselves for the record? [1:12] Raphael Kroeber from Aitken-Gum. Abigail Coleman from Aitken-Gum. [1:16] Roe v. Aitken-Gum. Thank you. [1:19] For the record, starting with the majority staff and the additional staff members, [1:24] please introduce themselves with their names, title, and affiliation. [1:28] Peter Spector, professional staff member for the majority. [1:31] Ellison Tolan, counsel for the majority. James Ross, head of the Center. [1:36] Grace Giles, agent. Tamari Collins, intern. [1:40] Sharon Eates, senior professional staff. [1:42] House [1:45] Phil Harness, staff assistant. [1:55] Mr. Comer. [1:56] James Comer, Chairman of the Oversight Committee, Kentucky. [1:58] Thank you. [2:00] Ms. Jean-Pierre, before we begin, I would like to go over the ground rules for this interview. [2:04] The questioning will proceed in rounds. The majority will ask questions for an hour, [2:08] and the minority will have an opportunity to ask questions for an hour if they so choose. [2:12] To the extent members have questions for the witness, [2:14] they will be propounded during their side's respective rounds. Do you understand? [2:17] I understand. [2:19] The clock will stop if the witness needs to confer with counsel. [2:22] When counsel for the witness is speaking and when members are [2:24] speaking during the opposing side's round of questions, [2:28] we will alternate back and forth until there are no more questions. [2:31] There is a court reporter taking down everything I say and everything you say [2:35] to make a written record of the interview. For the record to be clear, [2:39] please wait until the staff are questioning you, finishes each question before you begin your [2:43] answer, and the staff will wait until you finish your response before proceeding to the next [2:47] question. Further, to ensure the court reporter can properly record this interview, [2:52] please speak clearly, concisely, and slowly. Also, [2:55] the court reporter cannot record nonverbal answers such as nodding or shaking your head, [3:00] so it is important that you answer each question with an audible verbal answer. Do you understand? [3:04] Yes. [3:06] Exhibits may be entered into the record. Majority exhibits will be identified numerically. Minority [3:10] exhibits will be identified alphabetically. We want you to answer our questions in the most [3:15] complete and truthful manner possible, so we will take our time. If you have any questions or do not [3:20] fully understand the question, please let us know. We will attempt to clarify, add context to, [3:25] or rephrase our questions. Do you understand? [3:27] Yes, I do. [3:28] If we ask about specific conversations or events in the past and you are unable to recall [3:33] the exact words or details, you should testify to the substance of those conversations or events [3:38] to the best of your recollection. If you recall only a part of a conversation or event, [3:42] you should give us your best recollection of those events or parts of conversations [3:46] that you do recall. Do you understand? You are required by law to answer questions from [3:51] Congress truthfully. This also applies to questions posed by congressional staff in [3:55] this interview. Do you understand? Yes. [3:56] If at any time you knowingly make false statements, you [4:00] could be subject to criminal prosecution. Do you understand? [4:03] Yes. [4:04] This includes both knowingly providing false testimony but also stating that you do not [4:08] recall or remember something when in fact you do. Do you understand? [4:10] Yes. [4:11] Furthermore, you cannot tell half-truths or exclude information necessary to make [4:17] statements accurate. You are required to provide all information that would make your response [4:21] truthful. A deliberate failure to disclose information can constitute a false statement. [4:25] Do you understand? Is there any reason you are unable to provide truthful testimony in today's [4:31] interview? [4:32] No. [4:32] Please note that if you wish to assert a privilege over [4:35] any statement today, that assertion must comply with the rules of the Committee on Oversight and [4:40] Government Reform. Pursuant to that, Committee Rule 16 states for the chair to consider [4:46] assertions of privilege over testimony or statements, witnesses, or entities must clearly [4:50] state the specific privilege being asserted and the reason for the assertion on or before the [4:54] scheduled date of testimony or appearance. I would enter as Exhibit 1, a letter transmitted [5:01] to your counsel dated August 21, 2025. From there, Mr. Garibaldi. [5:07] This letter states that President Trump has determined not to assert executive privilege [5:14] over your assessment of former President Biden's fitness for the office of the President [5:18] and your knowledge of who exercised executive powers during his administration. [5:22] The letter also states that President Trump will not assert immunity to preclude you from [5:27] testifying before the House Oversight Committee. Ordinarily, we take a five-minute break at the [5:33] end of each hour of questioning, but if you need a longer break or a break before that, [5:36] please let us know, and we will be happy to accommodate. However, to the extent there is a pen [5:40] pending question we would ask that you finish answering the question before we [5:44] take the break you understand yes do you have any questions before we begin it's [5:54] my understanding your counsel wishes to raise a few points before we begin yes [5:59] just a couple process points I wanted to run through and thank you for the [6:06] opportunity as counsel for former White House press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre [6:12] I would just like to note that she's here voluntarily and appreciates the [6:16] opportunity to answer your questions on this topic we would request the [6:23] opportunity to review the transcript for errata or any typographical errors [6:28] before any public release and if there is going to be a public release of the [6:34] transcript or video the interview we would ask that it be released in full so [6:40] it is accurate and the context is provided [6:42] you would reference the August 21st authorization letter from the White [6:48] House counsel's office appreciate you mentioning that I wanted to also note [6:54] that she is while she is authorized to address the topics you noted and [7:00] privilege is not being asserted she has been instructed that she's not [7:04] authorized to reveal information which is prohibited by law or court order [7:09] including classified information and she will not [7:12] and I don't anticipate there's anything that would be an issue in any event she [7:18] will be testifying based on her first-hand experience with her time in [7:22] the Biden administration and on the topics the committee has identified as [7:26] relevant and I would ask with your indulgence Ms. Jean-Pierre has a very [7:31] short opening statement she would like to read into the record if you're well [7:36] thank you noted for the record we are not doing opening statements and we're [7:42] going to proceed with questioning [7:43] okay in that event I would ask perhaps when it's the minority's time if they [7:49] would be willing to allow that to be read into the record thank you sir [7:52] thanks my clock reads 1014 the majority's time will begin now I'll turn [8:01] it over to Peter thank you Ms. Jean-Pierre just a couple of background [8:06] questions to start where did you attend college for your undergraduate degree in [8:11] what year did you graduate I attended New York Institute of Technology and I [8:16] graduated with a bachelor's degree in engineering and I graduated with a [8:17] Ph.D. in 1997 and what was your degree in I got a bachelor's degree in pre-med [8:24] in biology and then you went on to get a master's degree from from where and [8:29] what year Columbia University School of International thank you to start out [8:37] with I understand that you announced in June that you've that you've written a [8:41] book that will come out I believe in October [8:45] titled independence a look inside a broken White House outside the party [8:50] lines and I think simultaneously you announced that you are leaving the [8:53] Democrat Party to be an independent why did you leave the Democrat Party so I [9:01] have been a public servant for almost 20 years I've been part of the Democratic [9:07] Party since I voted none of that in the sense of my support for the Biden Harris [9:12] administration my support for the Democratic Party and its ideology that [9:18] has not changed that is certainly who I am and what I [9:21] will continue to support as far as the platform I believe by being an [9:26] independent I can be much more helpful by being outside of the two-party system [9:34] and I think that that I can get a lot more done that was my decision when you [9:40] say be more helpful what do you mean by that just I think as someone who had a [9:47] platform for a long time and has become a notable voice [9:52] I feel that I want to have a voice that is my own and in that realm that would [10:01] be independent and as part of the Democrat Party you didn't feel it you [10:06] were able to have a voice that was your own I think that I spent 20 years [10:11] working for either a principal if you will in those 20 years and so obviously [10:18] I was working for someone and I think now that I'm no longer in [10:24] a public servant role I feel that that shows just me not being in a public [10:30] servant role that I'm an independent voice and that's how I see myself moving [10:36] you said in a statement to CNN I think around the same time that your book came [10:40] out that quote we need to be clear-eyed and questioning rather than blindly [10:45] loyal and obedient as we may have done in the past what did you mean by that I [10:51] think that's kind of the definition of independent if you will right it means [10:55] that you're standing [10:56] for your own voice and and that's I mean I think the title of the book kind of [11:03] speaks for itself in that statement so to whom did you believe you were blindly [11:09] loyal and obedient in the past I don't think it's to whom I think it's more of [11:16] stepping away from a two-party system and just standing and having my own [11:21] voice former vice president Harris has a book that's coming out soon as well it [11:31] sounds like [11:32] and there's been some recent reporting on what that book contains there is a an [11:38] article at least I believe yesterday with a source from the Biden [11:42] administration that said quote vice president Harris was simply not good at [11:49] the job quote she had basically zero substantive role in any of the [11:53] administration's key work streams and it would instead and instead would just [11:57] dive dive bomb in for stilted photo ops that exposed how out of depth she was do you agree with that? [12:04] can I just ask if I can interject quickly is this sort of on topic and relevant for [12:11] the discussion of President Biden's mental acuity I just want to make sure we're [12:14] staying focused yes I think the decision for President Biden to step out of the race [12:19] is relevant to that to that question and therefore vice president's Harris [12:24] Vice President Harris's role in that is relevant can you repeat the question [12:31] um vice president quote Vice President Harris was simply not good at the job quote she had [12:33] had basically zero substantive role in any of the administration's key work streams and so on [12:37] zero substantive role in any of the administration's key work streams and [12:41] instead would just dive bomb in for stilted photo ops that exposed how out [12:46] of depth she was? Well, I'm not going to speak to a source unknown. What I will [12:53] say is as White House press secretary, my role was to lift up the administration [13:00] and that included the vice president, obviously the president, and to continue [13:05] to talk about, to discuss what we were doing on behalf of the American people. [13:09] That was my focus and that's what I did every day. So some of the reporting on [13:20] what's in Vice President Harris's memoir includes, and this is a quote as well, [13:25] quote, it's Joe and Jill's decision. We all said that like a mantra as if we'd [13:30] all been hypnotized. Was it grace or was it recklessness? In retrospect, I think it [13:35] was recklessness. The stakes were simply too high. This wasn't a choice that [13:38] should have been left to the public. [13:39] It should have been left up to an individual's ego, an individual's [13:42] ambition. It should have been more than a personal decision. Do you agree with [13:48] Vice President Harris's characterization there? I haven't read the book. I didn't [13:51] even read the article or the excerpt from the book. So out of context, I can't speak to it. [13:57] Do you think that it was reckless to leave the decision up to President Biden? [14:05] What I can say is on that question, I can only speak to my observation and [14:11] what I believe in my role as White House Press Secretary. I think for the president, [14:19] any president, it doesn't matter if it's President Biden or any other president, [14:23] deciding to run for a reelection or making that decision is a personal decision. And my [14:31] role was to support the decision that the president made. [14:33] Did President Biden allow for input on that decision? [14:42] All I can speak to is my role as White House Press Secretary, [14:47] and my role was not to give my opinion on something that was a personal decision for [14:55] the president to make. Okay. So you disagree with [15:05] Vice President Harris that it was a reckless decision? [15:07] What I'm saying is that I did not read her book. I did not read the excerpt. I can't speak to [15:15] something that I haven't even delved into. What I can speak to is the role that I played, [15:24] my observation, and [15:27] I do believe any president, it doesn't matter if it's President Biden or any president, [15:31] deciding to run for reelection is a personal decision. My role as White House Press Secretary [15:37] was to move forward with whatever he decided. And respectfully, I'm not asking necessarily [15:45] about from your role as White House Press Secretary. I'm just asking you, [15:49] do you think it was reckless for President Biden to seek reelection? [15:53] I think it was his personal decision, and he made that decision, and I supported it. [15:57] Thank you. [15:58] And I wouldn't characterize it that way. I would just say it's his personal decision [16:06] to make, and he made that decision. I wouldn't characterize it in the way that [16:11] the question was framed. [16:12] I guess I bring it up because certainly, I haven't read your book. It's not out yet, [16:18] but from how you've portrayed it here, to me, it would seem that you could speak freely [16:24] about this in retrospect now. You don't see it that way? [16:31] Can you say more? [16:33] your question. I understand what you're asking. You said, when I read the quote, [16:37] we need to be clear-eyed and questioning rather than blindly loyal and obedient, [16:41] as we may have been in the past. Certainly, I understand your role in the Biden administration [16:45] was to defend the administration's positions, but you've left the party and you say that so [16:52] that you don't have to be blindly loyal and obedient. Well, I will say this. You're focusing [16:59] on one part, one particular quote. There are many factors that led to me leaving the party, [17:08] and I'll just leave it there. Did you feel you had to be [17:11] blindly obedient to President Biden? Well, I wouldn't characterize it that way, [17:22] the role that I played. I would not characterize it that way. What I will say is that it was an [17:28] honor and a privilege to be White House press secretary. It's something that I [17:36] feel very lucky to have been able to be in that role. And to be speaking for the President of the [17:44] United States and to be speaking for the American people was incredibly important to me and the [17:50] Biden-Harris administration. And my role was, yes, to give information, but to do it in a transparent [17:58] way. And that's what I did day in and day out. And not to belabor the point, but I do want to try to [18:06] understand what you mean by blindly obedient. You said it wasn't necessarily a who, but it was [18:12] something else. So what specifically did you feel you were quietly loyal to? [18:16] Well, I just want to be really clear here. We're using one line from a press release, and there [18:23] were many, many factors that led to me becoming independent. And I think I was very clear. I said [18:29] that I didn't want to be part of a party—any party—doesn't matter if it was Democratic Party or Republican Party. [18:33] It doesn't matter if it was Democratic Party or Republican Party. [18:37] I wanted to step out of that and do the work from the outside. [18:43] And so there were many factors. [18:45] I know you all are reading one particular line, but there are multiple factors as to [18:49] why I decided to be an independent. [18:56] Your book will also reportedly examine, quote, the three weeks that led to Biden's abandoning [19:01] his bid for a second term and the betrayal by the Democratic Party that led to his decision. [19:06] Is that something that will be addressed in the book? [19:13] Can you read that again? [19:14] Sure. [19:15] Quote, the three weeks that led to Biden's abandoning his bid for a second term and the [19:20] betrayal by the Democratic Party that led to his decision. [19:23] And you're asking me? [19:25] It's reported that that's something that you will address or examine in your book. [19:28] Is that true? [19:32] Yes. [19:33] I mean, that's what it said in the transcript, correct? [19:37] So just briefly, what do you mean by betrayal? [19:42] Look, I'm not going to go into specifics. [19:45] I'm not going to go into specifics into details. [19:48] But I think it will be, I'll step back for a second. [19:55] You could be assured that everything that I'm saying today is accurate and concise. [20:04] And that's my goal of being here today. [20:07] And I think I've been very clear about the book, about why I wrote it in sense of wanting [20:17] to step out of the two party system. [20:19] After being a public servant for decades. [20:23] And I'll just leave it there. [20:26] Well, I understand that. [20:27] I understand that the book's not out yet. [20:28] I understand that's an uncomfortable position. [20:30] So maybe I can ask it a different way. [20:32] Do you think that the Democratic Party betrayed Joe Biden? [20:40] I'm not uncomfortable in just stating that the book will speak for itself. [20:47] And respectfully, ma'am, this is an interview before Congress, if you're refusing to answer [20:53] the question. [20:54] I mean, we can note that for the record, but this is the time to provide detail. [20:58] She certainly did not refuse to answer the question. [21:03] Saying that you're not going to get into detail, this is the time to provide detail. [21:11] You used a word, betrayal, and we're trying to understand what you meant by that. [21:15] Okay. [21:16] But I also believe that what I wrote is pretty clear. [21:21] What the press release says is pretty clear. [21:26] Okay. [21:28] It lays out what the book is going to be and what the book talks about. [21:32] What was the betrayal that you were describing? [21:34] I mean, you just read the line from the transcript. [21:39] We will return to those last three weeks, but we can proceed from here. [21:48] We'll take a step back and talk about your general career background. [21:53] I understand you've had a long career, so we can move quickly through some of the earlier [21:58] ones. [21:59] But what was your first job? [22:02] Was it out of college? [22:03] Did you work between undergrad and graduate school? [22:06] Yes, I did. [22:08] I worked for a non-for-profit out of college. [22:12] Okay. [22:13] Do you recall what that was called? [22:15] It was focused on education. [22:20] And then after graduate school, was that when you worked for a New York City counselor? [22:25] Correct. [22:28] And then after working for Mr. Ganaro, you worked for John Edwards presidential campaign [22:34] in 2004. [22:35] Is that right? [22:36] I worked for City Council. [22:37] Okay. [22:38] I worked for Council Member Ganaro, and then after that, I worked for City Council Member [22:42] James Sanders. [22:45] And then after that, I worked for an organization, another organization in D.C. [22:51] And then John Edwards presidential campaign? [22:55] Yeah. [22:56] And after the campaign, where did you go next? [23:00] Which campaign? [23:01] After the 2004 Edwards campaign for president. [23:05] If I remember correctly, no, not to 2004. [23:08] I did not work for the 2004 campaign. [23:10] Okay. [23:11] I worked for the 2004 John Edwards campaign. [23:12] Okay. [23:13] What year did you work for the John Edwards campaign? [23:14] It was 2008. [23:15] And then in 2008, you also worked for Barack Obama's campaign? [23:16] Is that right? [23:20] Yes, that's correct. [23:21] What was your role in that campaign? [23:22] In both campaigns, I was a Southern Political Director, Regional Southern Political Director. [23:38] And then after the 2008 campaign, you joined the Obama White House. [23:44] Is that right? [23:45] That's correct. [23:46] And what was your role? [23:47] I was also in the political, I was in the White House. [23:48] I was in the White House. [23:49] I was in the political department, but I had the Northeast. [23:53] And you served the whole first term. [23:56] Is that right? [23:59] Not the whole first term, just for two years. [24:01] And then you joined- [24:02] Let me step back. [24:03] Before I did the political office, I was a White House liaison. [24:07] And then after two years, you went where? [24:11] To go into, move back to Chicago to do the reelect. [24:15] So then you were on the 2012 reelection campaign. [24:19] Okay. [24:21] Did you work in President Obama's second term in the White House? [24:25] No, no. [24:26] Where were you working during that time? [24:28] I think I did some consultant work after the campaign. [24:31] And you worked for Martin O'Malley's 2016 presidential campaign, is that right? [24:36] For a brief moment, yeah. [24:39] And then we can skip ahead here. [24:44] When did you join the Biden 2020 presidential campaign, do you recall? [24:49] I believe it was May of 2020, going into the general. [24:52] And then if I understand correctly- [24:54] Okay. [24:55] At some point, you were on vice presidential candidate Kamala Harris's side of the campaign, [25:02] is that right? [25:03] Or was that the transition? [25:04] It was the running mate. [25:05] When she became running mate, I became her chief of staff. [25:07] And did you have a role on the transition team? [25:10] As an advisor. [25:14] And then once President Biden was inaugurated, you were principal deputy press secretary, [25:22] is that right? [25:24] Yeah. [25:26] And then eventually you succeeded Jen Psaki in May of 2022, is that right? [25:30] Correct. [25:31] And you served the remainder of the Biden administration in that role, is that right? [25:37] Correct. [25:38] So if we take a step back, when was the first time you met President Biden? [25:46] If I'm remembering the year correctly, it was 2009 during the Obama-Biden administration. [25:54] During the administration. [25:56] So you did not meet him on the campaign trail at all in 2008? [25:59] Not that I recall. [26:00] And what was the frequency of your interaction with Vice President Biden during that time? [26:06] I can't remember the frequency, but if he traveled in my region, I saw him often. [26:16] Just, I guess, to get some context. [26:19] No, I understand. [26:20] I don't want to lock in on the amount of time, but I saw him often enough. [26:27] And would this be in a room full of people, or did you have meaningful, direct conversations [26:34] with the Vice President as well? [26:35] Yeah, I did. [26:36] I did. [26:37] I traveled with him, yeah. [26:38] And did you advise him? [26:39] Yeah. [26:40] And did you advise him as well? [26:42] As it relates to my job. [26:44] So during that time, can you give an example of what you mean by that, as it relates to [26:53] your job? [26:54] Yeah, sure. [26:55] Happy to do it. [26:56] I was the Northeast political director. [27:00] So in that role, anytime he traveled in the Northeast, I traveled with him when he was [27:08] doing specific political events. [27:12] And what would you advise him on? [27:15] Because I was the person who kept an eye. [27:16] Who kept an eye on what was going on the ground for the administration politically. [27:22] If he had questions, I was able to answer those questions. [27:25] That's it. [27:27] And it was just what was happening on the ground in that state. [27:32] And during that time, when you first had met and interacted with Vice President Biden, [27:38] did you notice that he had a stutter? [27:41] I honestly can't remember specifically if he had a stutter. [27:45] Obviously, this is something that he talks about very often. [27:49] And he was always open about his stutter. [27:51] But I can't remember in 2009 if that came up or if I even noticed it. [27:57] But I know that he talked about it pretty regularly. [27:59] The reason I ask, and I use the word stutter, because I believe that's the word that President [28:04] Biden used, and we talked about this a little bit with Anita Dunn, who recalled not noticing [28:11] or knowing about his stutter until he made it public at some point, I think, around 2020. [28:17] Is that how you would call it as well? [28:19] Look, I don't specifically remember. [28:21] Obviously, that's her recollection. [28:23] I can't speak to that. [28:25] But I don't remember specifically when that came up. [28:29] But I know that he has talked about it pretty regularly. [28:35] And look, I don't think anybody who has a stutter that prevents them from doing high-level [28:41] and executing high-level issues and problem solving. [28:47] Of course. [28:48] We're trying to understand sort of a change over time. [28:50] And later on, I think the stutter was an excuse at times used later on in the campaign. [28:59] So I think I'm just trying to get a sense for what the evolution of that was over time. [29:05] So you don't recall specifically during that time? [29:07] I don't. [29:08] I just know that on the campaign, I do remember him meeting someone who had a stutter, a young [29:17] boy who had a stutter, and connecting with that young person. [29:21] And he would have conversations about what was his trick to try to get through his stutter, [29:27] which I think was kind of like his humane way of connecting with people. [29:32] That's what I remember. [29:34] Of course. [29:35] And this is the 2020 campaign? [29:36] This is the 2020 campaign that I'm talking about. [29:39] So in 2009, and I won't hold you to exactly 2009, but in that range, did you ever hear [29:47] President Biden stutter? [29:49] I honestly don't recall. [29:51] I don't recall hearing that. [29:53] And I did interact with him, but I don't recall that. [29:57] How would you describe his communication or his communication skills during that time? [30:04] 2009-ish? [30:05] 2009. [30:06] He was the Joe Biden that people talk about, very friendly, very open, wanting to know [30:15] who was everybody in the room. [30:18] He was not like any elected official that I had worked with. [30:23] He was incredibly friendly. [30:25] And wanted to know everything about you. [30:28] That's the Vice President Joe Biden that I met. [30:32] And do you recall him having any trouble recalling your name? [30:37] Not that I recall back in 2009. [30:41] Not that I recall. [30:43] So you don't remember an instance where he forgot your name or maybe somebody else's [30:46] name around you? [30:47] No. [30:48] I mean, I was new to his... [30:49] I was technically on Obama's team, but I traveled with him from time to time. [30:55] But I don't remember him not knowing who I was. [30:58] So when he saw you, he would say, hi, Karine, or hi, Ms. John Kerry? [31:01] He would be very friendly when he saw me. [31:05] And he knew what my role was. [31:08] And we would just move forward in that fashion. [31:11] And you mentioned that you worked on President Obama's 2012 re-election campaign. [31:20] During that campaign, did you have a similar frequency of interaction with Vice President [31:26] Biden? [31:27] No. [31:28] So no. [31:29] So you didn't see him very often? [31:30] No. [31:31] I didn't interact with him. [31:32] Not at all? [31:33] No, because we were in Chicago. [31:34] They were in the White House. [31:36] He and the President were pretty busy. [31:40] And so we didn't see either of them very frequently. [31:43] Did you have any role in debate preparation for either President Obama or Vice President [31:48] Biden? [31:49] No. [31:51] In 2024, no. [31:53] So I guess to be clear, during the Obama administration, did you work on debate prep for anybody? [32:01] I did not. [32:02] And you did not in the 2024. [32:04] Did you do that in the 2020 race? [32:07] Yes. [32:08] Yes, I was. [32:09] For President Biden? [32:10] Yes. [32:11] Then Vice President Biden and also then Senator Kamala Harris. [32:16] Okay. [32:17] We'll get more into that later. [32:18] Mm-hmm. [32:19] So you mentioned you joined the Biden 2020 campaign around May. [32:27] Is that right? [32:29] Yeah. [32:30] May 2020. [32:31] Did somebody approach you for this role? [32:33] It was a conversation that I had with then Vice President Biden in early of 2019, don't [32:41] remember the exact day, when he had asked me to join the campaign before he announced. [32:48] And I was not able to do that. [32:50] I had a young child at the time and could not commit being on the road for two years. [32:56] And so one of the things that we discussed was in the general election for me to come [33:01] on board in the general election if that were to happen. [33:03] So it was a conversation directly with then Vice President? [33:08] Yeah. [33:10] Yeah. [33:11] And then it was revisited in May of 2020. [33:15] Was that a phone call? [33:16] No, it was a meeting. [33:18] Where was the meeting? [33:19] In Virginia. [33:20] Was that a home or a restaurant? [33:25] If I'm remembering correctly, it was a home that the Bidens rented in Virginia in 2019 [33:33] at the time. [33:34] Can you tell me, add a little color to what that meeting was? [33:39] It was pretty straightforward. [33:40] It was a meeting. [33:41] It was, you know, come join my campaign, need you on my campaign. [33:45] It was, I mean, it was very straightforward. [33:47] There was nothing much more than that being just straightforward and asking me and direct. [33:54] Did you talk about his time, Joe Biden's time as Vice President? [33:59] Did he make any reference to that? [34:01] No. [34:02] It wasn't a long conversation. [34:04] It was pretty direct. [34:05] Sure. [34:09] And once you joined the Biden 2020 campaign, did you travel with an former Vice President? [34:15] It was COVID, so there wasn't a lot of traveling. [34:19] I mean, this was a very 2020 campaign was unprecedented, as I'm sure you all could imagine. [34:29] And so it was there wasn't a lot of travel because of COVID. [34:32] So what did your interactions with candidate Biden look like? [34:37] It was mostly virtual, to be quite honest, because of COVID. [34:40] And were these meetings with lots of participants on the call or did you interact with them? [34:45] It would depend. [34:47] So occasionally you would have calls directly with candidate Joe Biden? [34:51] Like one on one. [34:52] How would you characterize it? [34:56] I would say that any time there involved information that he needed or, you know, to prepare for a meeting, there would be a virtual conference call. [35:12] I couldn't tell you how many people were on the call. [35:16] Sure. [35:17] But you interacted with him? [35:18] Yes. [35:19] You interacted with him, whether it be virtually or on the phone or maybe occasionally in person frequently? [35:25] Well, it was COVID, so it was mostly virtual or on the phone. [35:29] And I don't know, maybe I saw him a handful of times because of the moment that we were in. [35:36] So those virtual and phone calls, were they frequent? [35:40] We're talking about 2020. [35:44] I mean, it was a campaign, so they were often. [35:47] I can't give you the exact frequency. [35:50] And can you estimate how many times you actually interacted with then candidate Biden in person? [35:54] Probably, this is just a guess, I would say maybe less than five times. [36:00] I mean, it was COVID, so it was like, it was really hard to engage in person. [36:04] And it's my understanding that President Biden was mostly based out of Wilmington at that time, is that correct? [36:10] I know he was in Delaware. [36:13] Sure. [36:14] Yeah, most of the time. [36:15] And just, I'm not asking for an address, but just generally, where were you based at that time? [36:20] I was based in Maryland. [36:22] Okay. [36:23] Yeah. [36:24] And who, to your understanding, was actually with then candidate Biden up in Delaware? [36:32] I don't know. [36:35] I mean, it was a small, again, it was COVID. [36:38] It was a very, very small team of people that were around because of just trying to be careful and mindful of the protocols. [36:45] And it was, you know, as we all know, a scary time. [36:48] And then I believe you said in August of 2020, roughly, you became then candidate Kamala Harris's candidate. [37:02] And you were the chief of staff, is that right? [37:04] Yeah, the running mate. [37:05] And could you remind us what your title was? [37:07] Or sorry, what your role was, exactly? [37:09] Basically to help manage her team and to get her ready for whatever it is that she needed, whether it was a debate or a speech or making sure that she had what she needed on the road while she was traveling. [37:24] But it was managing the team, essentially, what chief of staffs do. [37:29] So you did help prepare Kamala Harris for her role? [37:31] Kamala Harris for her vice presidential debates? [37:33] Yeah. [37:34] I think she only had one, if I remember correctly. [37:38] You are? [37:39] Yeah. [37:45] Did you request to work for Kamala Harris over Joe Biden? [37:50] So just to give you a little bit of the lay of the land, while I was her chief of staff, I was still a senior advisor for Joe Biden. [38:00] And there was once or twice where I would travel. [38:03] I think I traveled with him once. [38:05] I may have helped. [38:07] I still was doing stuff for him, but limited capacity because I was focused on being her chief of staff. [38:15] And it wasn't a choice. [38:17] I didn't pick one or the other. [38:20] He asked me to be the chief of staff for the running mate. [38:23] I didn't know who the running mate was going to be at the time. [38:25] And, you know, when your boss asks you to do something, you say, in that really important role, like a job like that, I said yes. [38:35] How? [38:36] I guess I didn't realize that. [38:40] I guess I didn't realize that you had been asked to serve with the running mate before the running mate was actually chosen. [38:45] How long was that kind of roughly? [38:49] I mean, days. [38:50] It was days. [38:52] That's a good question. [38:54] I can't remember exactly when, but it was a very small, short timeline. [39:00] What was your relationship with then Senator Harris like at the time? [39:09] We knew of each other. [39:11] But we weren't like friends. [39:12] We were friendly, but we weren't friends. [39:15] And we knew of each other and respected each other. [39:18] When Senator Harris was picked as the running mate, did you think that was a good idea? [39:28] Again, this is something, a personal decision that only a, you know, a candidate can make. [39:36] So I just respected his decision and moved forward with it. [39:39] Did you think she was a suitable candidate to be vice president if so elected? [39:45] I mean, look, she was in the 2020 presidential primary. [39:50] And so I thought that, I've always thought that she was impressive. [39:54] I always thought that she was incredibly talented. [39:57] But again, I didn't have an opinion. [39:59] It was for the president to make or then vice president Biden to make. [40:04] Did you find her to be honest? [40:05] I mean, I worked with her for a very short period of time. [40:11] I've always found her to be direct and a hard worker. [40:17] That's what I can speak to. [40:19] But not honest? [40:20] I think she was direct. [40:23] I mean, honest, direct, hard worker, all of the things. [40:26] I think that she was just really focused on the job at hand. [40:30] That's what I can speak to. [40:32] Thank you. [40:35] And understanding this is still COVID, how often did you interact with then vice presidential candidate Harris? [40:43] I interacted with her. [40:45] She lived in D.C., so it was easier to interact with her. [40:48] So I saw her often enough. [40:50] So every week? [40:53] Yeah, every week. [40:57] And now thinking into the Biden administration, of course, COVID was still around. [41:06] Did your interaction with then President Biden increase from the campaign? [41:12] Say that one more time. [41:13] Once President Biden was inaugurated, of course, COVID was still around. [41:17] Oh, inauguration, yeah. [41:19] Once you were in the White House, did your interactions with President Biden increase [41:23] from what it had been on the campaign? [41:25] So I was the principal deputy press secretary. [41:27] So Jen Psaki was the press secretary. [41:31] So she interacted with him a lot more than I did. [41:34] But we were all, you know, there was, well, I didn't say all of us, but there was a group of us that were at the White House. [41:42] And so we were there every day. [41:45] So you would see him in person every week? [41:51] I would say a couple of times a week, once a week. [41:53] But again, I was the deputy. [41:55] I wasn't the press secretary. [41:58] So I didn't see him as regularly. [41:59] So just generally, what were your responsibilities and duties as the deputy? [42:04] To step in for Jen Psaki at the podium when she couldn't, to travel with the president, and to prep him when needed, and also to deal with, deal and talk to and manage with the press. [42:21] And then when you became press secretary, is that when your interaction with President Biden increased? [42:32] Yeah. [42:33] Well, White House press secretary, most White House press secretary deal with the, with the president regularly. [42:39] And so, so did I. [42:40] So every day when he was in the White House or? [42:44] I would say on average, once a day. [42:49] And as press secretary, did Andrew Bates report to you? [42:54] He reported to me, the communications director, and also Anita Dunn. [42:59] And how much direction did you give these people that reported to you? [43:09] Were you their direct supervisors or? [43:11] Yeah. [43:13] And did you interact with them on a daily basis as well? [43:15] With my team in the White House press? [43:17] Yes. [43:18] Is it usual for somebody from your team to also answer to Ms. Dunn? [43:26] It was because of his portfolio. [43:30] He had a political portfolio. [43:32] Were there other members of your team that also answered to Ms. Dunn? [43:35] No, because he had a political portfolio. [43:37] So yes. [43:39] What about Ian Sams? [43:41] He didn't, he was not a part of my team. [43:43] Oh. [43:47] So Ron Klain and others have testified that there was sort of, the timing, it may not [43:52] be exact, but roughly 8 a.m. senior staff meeting every day, followed by another slightly [43:59] less senior staff meeting around 8.40 or so. [44:02] Did you attend either or both of these every day? [44:06] I did, as press secretary, yes. [44:08] So not while you were deputy, but once you became press secretary? [44:11] Yes. [44:12] While you were deputy, did you attend the second meeting, the slightly less senior meeting? [44:16] I don't believe I did. [44:18] So understanding this is while you're press secretary, what were the usual topics of [44:27] these senior, senior staff meetings? [44:29] It was usually what was going on that day, the week ahead if needed, depending on the [44:35] day, any legislative announcement, policy announcement that we were doing. [44:41] It was pretty straightforward. [44:43] Were there discussions of executive decisions being made by the president? [44:48] Can you say more? [44:52] Was there discussion of the process of making an executive decision, such as issuing an [44:58] executive order or a pardon, clemency decisions? [45:01] I think there were many meetings like that, but there were many meetings that I was not [45:07] part of. [45:08] Obviously, as White House press secretary, I'm not in every meeting, but usually those [45:13] morning meetings were more, I would say, like a check-in meeting on the day and how to move [45:17] forward. [45:18] And did these meetings ever include discussions of President Biden's health? [45:23] I think as far as I was. [45:25] As far as I was involved, it was more of what was being asked by the press and what was [45:31] the press inquiry, and it was in that form. [45:35] So if the press had questions about President Biden's health, then it would have come up [45:39] at that meeting? [45:40] Not necessarily, but that would be, if you're asking me how it would come up, it would come [45:47] up because of the press perspective. [45:49] Do you recall that happening? [45:51] If it did, very infrequently. [45:54] Do you recall a specific instance? [45:57] No, because it didn't take over and take over in those meetings at all. [46:01] I'm sorry, could you say that again? [46:03] Meaning like the health, what press was asking about as it related to his health didn't overtake [46:10] those meetings. [46:11] You have to remember, one of the questions that I got frequently from press was health [46:18] questions and age questions. [46:19] So that was something that we had to deal with for a good portion of his first term [46:26] or his term. [46:27] So any discussions of President Biden's health at these morning meetings, they were only [46:35] in the context of press inquiries, never anything different than that? [46:39] I do not recall having a specific meeting on his health, no. [46:44] Maybe, to be clear, maybe not a meeting that's all about his health, but did his health come [46:49] up at these meetings in any context? [46:51] Not that I recall. [46:52] So when you were facing media inquiries regarding the President's health, when was the press [47:02] meeting on his health? [47:05] When would you raise those in a normal situation? [47:10] So I think in these meetings, I'm the White House Press Secretary, so if I get asked, [47:17] hey, what is the press talking about? [47:19] What's going to be the focus in your press briefing? [47:21] That's how it would come up. [47:22] I would say, this is what the press is covering. [47:26] This is the topics that they're into. [47:28] That's how it would come up. [47:29] And to get answers to those questions from the press, would you raise them exclusively [47:35] in that meeting? [47:36] No. [47:37] It was just, as I said, this was a check-in. [47:40] These meetings were primarily check-ins, so it was my role is to engage with the press. [47:45] And so that's how it would come up. [47:47] And if one of those questions came up and it didn't feel natural, circumstances arise [47:56] in which you're not bringing it up in that meeting, who would you go to to get answers [48:01] to that question? [48:02] And just want to step back for a second and be very clear. [48:08] If there was a shooting, for example, and people were having inquiries, press was having [48:17] inquiries, did he speak to the mayor? [48:18] Did he speak to the governor? [48:20] It was just in that same vein. [48:22] I would be asked, okay, what's going on? [48:24] What's the incoming that you're getting? [48:26] What's going on in the press? [48:27] I would bring that up. [48:28] So that's what I'm talking about, what press had on their mind. [48:34] As it relates to my press briefings and how I would take on any incoming questions, I [48:39] think the Q&A, if you will, the talking points that came out would come from the comms team, [48:52] senior advisors, and my press team. [48:54] So I don't think that that was helpful. [48:58] I don't think it entirely answers my question. [49:00] Just if you had a question that you were trying to get an answer for about the president's [49:06] help, who would you go to? [49:08] The press team, the comms team, senior advisors, depending on the question. [49:11] Would you go to them? [49:12] Who would you go to? [49:13] Like Donnellan, for instance. [49:14] So just to lay out a little bit. [49:20] So the press team, people have a portfolio. [49:24] Comm's team, people have a portfolio. [49:26] And so they would be the ones that would work with the policy teams or the senior advisor [49:35] on any topics that were coming up in the briefing room. [49:38] And then they would come to me. [49:40] And then we would talk through whatever topics that were going to come up. [49:45] And then we would talk through topics that were going to be coming up in the press briefing [49:47] room. [49:48] And that's how it worked. [49:49] So who had the portfolio for inquiries regarding President Biden's health? [49:55] That was primarily coming from the communications team. [49:59] And who on the communications team? [50:00] I mean, we've had different people coming, kind of being part of the communications team. [50:07] So it was an array of people. [50:08] It was also Anita Dunn, who was part of the senior advisors. [50:11] So I don't want to pinpoint anybody because there was, depending on the timing, there [50:15] was an array of people. [50:16] Depending on the timing, depending on what time during the first term or his term. [50:23] Would you ever go to, whatever occurred to you, to go to Ms. Tomasini with a question [50:29] regarding the President's health? [50:30] I did not. [50:31] How about Mr. Bernal? [50:34] About the President's health? [50:36] Yes, ma'am. [50:37] Mr. Bernal? [50:38] No. [50:42] Ashley Williams? [50:45] No. [50:46] I don't recall doing that. [50:48] How about the First Lady? [50:49] Same question. [50:50] No. [50:52] Did you interact frequently with the First Lady? [50:53] No. [50:55] Not frequently, but I saw her from time to time. [50:58] And did you ever have a conversation about President Biden's health or fitness? [51:05] No. [51:14] How would Ms. Dunn tell you to handle inquiries regarding the President's health or fitness? [51:26] Basically how, meaning, can you be more specific? [51:29] If there were any talking points that stick out to you about what the message should be [51:34] regarding the President's health or fitness coming from Ms. Dunn? [51:37] I mean, I was pretty much on the record about the President's health. [51:40] And from my observation, and I've always, what I said at the podium is certainly what [51:46] I believed and what I saw myself, my personal observation as well, which is that he was, [51:56] you know, capable of doing the job. [51:58] This is a President that had the experience to do the job, cared about the American people, [52:03] and did it every day, day in and day out, and was able to have some pretty successful [52:09] legislation and policy. [52:10] And that's how we, we just kept it high level. [52:13] We kept it on what the President has been able to do. [52:16] Do you think that strategy delivering that message was effective? [52:22] Or do you wish, do you think that there should have been other efforts taken by you or other [52:26] people in the White House to, to push back on this story about the President's health [52:31] or fitness? [52:32] Here's what I say. [52:33] I would say that this is a President where the American people, the American people, [52:39] the American people, the American people. [52:43] The American people, reporters, whoever was following him got to see him on a regular [52:48] basis. [52:49] This is someone who talked to reporters, you know, in an informal way, taking shouted [52:57] questions, inquiries from them over 670 times. [53:01] So he did that pretty regularly. [53:04] People got to see him multiple times a week. [53:07] And that, I think that's, that reaches a level of, hey, you got, you guys get to see and [53:13] speak to him and he takes your question and he's out there. [53:15] Then why did this question keep coming up? [53:17] You know, that's something for, I think, reporters to speak to. [53:24] It was a question that came up. [53:26] I tried, we tried to do our best to answer it. [53:29] The President was out there. [53:31] People got to see him. [53:32] People got to hear directly from him pretty regularly. [53:35] I can't speak to that. [53:37] I'm not going to speak to, I have a hypothetical that I can't even answer. [53:41] Did the frequency of this question increase as from January 20th, 2021 to now? [53:50] To the end of Joe Biden's term? [53:53] I think it was something that was part of being in the administration. [53:59] It came up. [54:00] I can't speak to the frequency, but it was one of the topics that came up often. [54:05] It didn't increase after his debate with President Trump? [54:09] I mean, you all watch my press briefings, right? [54:13] So that was a topic certainly after the debate. [54:16] But again, that my observation has always been when it comes to this President, President [54:23] Biden, that he was more. [54:24] More than more than competent of doing the job each and every day, day in and day out. [54:31] And I got to see that on a regular basis. [54:34] That was my observation. [54:36] And I hear what you're saying. [54:38] I too, I'm less interested in what you have to say about whether you believe the President [54:50] was capable of doing the job. [54:52] My question, my question is, did you ever see a change in the President's ability to [54:56] do the job? [54:57] We started off part of your questioning about when I first met him in 2009. [55:05] I think that he's aged. [55:07] I've aged. [55:09] Presidents age in these job. [55:11] It is very common. [55:12] Obviously, he got older. [55:14] I spoke to that at the podium. [55:16] He spoke to that about how he's aged. [55:19] But when it comes to competency, when it comes to being able to do the job, he was more than [55:26] capable of doing that. [55:28] Did he age? [55:29] We all do. [55:30] Yes, he did. [55:31] And I understand that we all age. [55:35] We're aging just sitting in this room right now. [55:37] But every second, every second. [55:39] But it feels like my question is, did you see a change from in his competency? [55:51] You brought the word competency from 2021 to 2025. [55:56] I did not see a change in his competency from 2021 to 2021. [56:00] To the end of his administration, if that's what you're asking me. [56:04] So if I have that correct. [56:06] Yes, ma'am. [56:07] So let's expand the scope even further. [56:09] You've known Joe Biden, interacted with Joe Biden since on a semi-regular basis since [56:15] 2009. [56:16] Is it your testimony here today that Joe Biden's competency is the same from 2009 to today? [56:24] What I will say is when I served with him in the four years of this administration, [56:29] he was more than competent to do the job. [56:33] This is someone who woke up every morning focused on the American people and delivering [56:37] for the American people. [56:38] And that's what I saw. [56:40] I saw someone who cared and did that in a very focused way. [56:49] And that's why I was honored and privileged to have worked in this administration. [56:56] And I understand that you believe that he was competent the entirety of his term. [57:00] I'm asking you, did you see a change from 2009 to 2025 in Joe Biden's competency? [57:08] No, I did not. [57:10] This is someone who, if you're in a room with him, when I was in a room with him during [57:17] the administration, when I came in to talk to him about whatever issue that he wanted [57:22] to know about, this is someone who had a conversation with me back and forth, who was very engaged, [57:28] who was very aware of what was happening. [57:31] And in the press, sometimes more aware than I was. [57:35] And we would have that discussion. [57:37] And that was my exchange. [57:39] And that was what I experienced in the four years that I worked for this president. [57:46] Do you believe that Joe Biden became a less adept debater from the time that you began [57:53] knowing him to 2025? [57:55] So I will just use his own words. [57:57] He said himself he wasn't as good debater as he used to be. [58:00] Or he wasn't. [58:01] He wasn't speaking as well as he used to. [58:03] That's something that he said. [58:05] He actually spoke to. [58:10] Did you ever have conversations with President Biden about why he wasn't as good of a speaker [58:16] as he used to be? [58:19] I never had a direct conversation with the president about that. [58:24] Did you have a conversation with somebody else about that? [58:26] I never had a conversation with anybody about that. [58:28] You mentioned that you didn't recall at least noticing that Joe Biden had a stutter when [58:37] you first met him. [58:39] Did you notice it at some point during your time in the Biden administration? [58:45] I can't remember specific times, but obviously this is something that he was free willing [58:54] and talked about extensively. [58:57] And I can't pinpoint a moment where I experienced that or could remember. [59:04] But this is somebody who talked about it, connected with other folks who had stutters. [59:09] And again, if you have a stutter, it doesn't mean that you can't perform at a high level. [59:18] Certainly. [59:19] And the reason I ask it all is simply because the fact that he had a stutter was brought [59:25] up as perhaps a reason for some of his lack of performance in the debate, for example, [59:34] and other moments. [59:36] Do you agree with that? [59:37] Do you think that that played a role? [59:39] Look, I can't hypothesize or opine. [59:42] What it's like to have a stutter and that's not something that I can speak to. [59:47] I know what you're speaking of. [59:49] What I know is that he had to work very hard to deal with his stutter even today from the [59:57] time he was young, even today, something that he talked about extensively. [1:00:00] Again, just because you have a stutter doesn't mean you can't operate at a high level and [1:00:06] be very functioning. [1:00:07] And that does not affect your competency. [1:00:09] Certainly. [1:00:10] And I agree with you. [1:00:11] I only mean that it seemed to be cited as proof that he was not in cognitive decline [1:00:18] in any way, that any verbal stumble was simply the result of the stutter. [1:00:24] Again, what I can speak to is my observation, and this is somebody that was more than competent [1:00:30] to do his job. [1:00:31] I don't think a stutter, if he had it or not, if you have a stutter, doesn't mean that you [1:00:41] can't perform at a high level. [1:00:42] But my observation, again, and I said this at the podium and I will continue to say it [1:00:43] today in front of all of you, which is, this is someone who was very active and engaging [1:00:44] with me when I had conversations with him. [1:00:45] Do you think that, you mentioned that the press was very concerned or brought up frequently [1:00:46] President Biden's health or these related issues of his cognitive abilities or fitness [1:00:47] to serve. [1:00:48] Do you think the American people are concerned about that? [1:00:49] I don't think so. [1:00:50] I don't think so. [1:00:51] I don't think so. [1:00:52] I don't think so. [1:00:53] I don't think so. [1:00:54] I don't think so. [1:00:55] I don't think so. [1:00:56] I don't think so. [1:00:57] I don't think so. [1:00:58] I don't think so. [1:01:05] I don't think so. [1:01:06] I don't think so. [1:01:07] I don't think so. [1:01:18] I don't think so. [1:01:19] I don't think so. [1:01:20] I don't think so. [1:01:21] I don't think so. [1:01:22] I just don't think the American people were also concerned about that? [1:01:23] I can't speak for the whole entire American people. [1:01:24] That's not something I can speak to. [1:01:27] Did you ever have outreach from friends or people you knew that were concerned that President [1:01:34] Biden was struggling with his health or cognitive abilities? [1:01:38] Not that I recall, not specific conversations. [1:01:42] Did you ever have a conversation with anyone in the White House? [1:01:45] In the White House? [1:01:47] Where you or they were concerned about President Biden's health. [1:01:51] health or cognitive abilities? [1:01:52] I've never spoken to anybody in the White House about that. [1:01:57] To be clear, you've spoken to people in the White House [1:02:01] about that regarding press inquiries. [1:02:03] Exactly. [1:02:03] But the question was, right, if I heard the question, [1:02:07] if people in the White House were concerned, [1:02:10] like gay, personally concerned. [1:02:12] I did not talk to anybody about that in the White House, [1:02:15] about personal concern. [1:02:16] Sure. [1:02:17] And you would in the, I'm not a press person. [1:02:21] I don't really know how your job works. [1:02:23] But it's my understanding that if you had, [1:02:30] if you were receiving outreach from the press [1:02:32] about the president's health or ability to serve, [1:02:34] you would go to either the comms team, the press team. [1:02:38] So it's not necessarily that I would go. [1:02:40] Everybody was watching the news, just as I was, right? [1:02:44] So people were aware with what was happening in the news. [1:02:48] But as the press secretary, when I'm in these meetings, [1:02:51] these check-in meetings, I would bring [1:02:53] up, hey, this is what I'm going to get in the briefing room. [1:02:55] This is what the incoming that we're [1:02:58] having that's coming in from the White House press corps. [1:03:01] Sure. [1:03:02] And over the course of your two years as press secretary, [1:03:06] it's your testimony here today that you never just [1:03:10] asked somebody, whether it was one of the senior advisors [1:03:13] or the vice president, hey, Steve Ricchetti, [1:03:21] is the president OK? [1:03:23] I never had to ask that question because I [1:03:28] saw the president on a daily basis. [1:03:30] And I never, ever thought if I never had that question. [1:03:37] But to be clear, you're not a doctor, correct? [1:03:41] I'm not a doctor, but you're also [1:03:43] asking me to make a statement about his health. [1:03:47] So I mean, it goes both ways here. [1:03:49] I'm just telling you my observation. [1:03:52] My observation was this was somebody who was competent. [1:03:55] And these are conversations that I'm having. [1:03:57] These are direct conversations that I'm having with the president. [1:04:00] I was the first president of the United States, Joe Biden at the time. [1:04:04] And it was always direct. [1:04:07] It was always very alert. [1:04:10] And it was a healthy back and forth. [1:04:13] So because I had that daily access to him and talk to him, [1:04:17] there would be no reason for me to go to a senior advisor [1:04:21] to ask the question that you just asked. [1:04:23] And just to be specific, after the 2024 debate, [1:04:27] you never thought maybe I should actually ask a few other people, if the president's [1:04:30] doing OK? [1:04:31] He said he had a bad night. [1:04:34] The president said he had a bad night. [1:04:37] And you never thought to ask why? [1:04:40] Again, this is somebody that I had regular engagement with. [1:04:46] And I never had a concern about anything that dealt with if the president could do his job [1:04:53] or not. [1:04:54] I saw a president that was more than capable to do his job. [1:04:58] So I understand you had frequent interaction with President Biden. [1:05:02] But for those in the White House that didn't. [1:05:04] Right. [1:05:06] Were you aware of any of them coming to you or to anyone else? [1:05:09] They did not come to me. [1:05:11] Are you aware of anybody raising concerns about President Biden's health with another [1:05:16] senior advisor? [1:05:17] No. [1:05:18] I was not. [1:05:19] So as far as you know, the White House, nobody in the White House had concerns about the [1:05:25] president's ability to do his job. [1:05:27] I'm one person out of hundreds of people that worked for the president of the United States. [1:05:32] I could only speak for myself and my observation and my engagement with him. [1:05:37] I think he has many things to say about what he did not do and what he is going to do for [1:06:01] his time. [1:06:05] Yeah, he was very 04 Network. [1:06:08] Excuse me. [1:06:09] And they did not say anything. [1:06:10] is that my observation again I'm one person and my job was to share [1:06:19] information that in a transparent way that was that reporters and the American [1:06:27] people needed to know I did not have those direct very direct you're talking [1:06:33] about very direct conversations with people and I didn't happen do you think [1:06:38] you share information that the White House shared information directly and [1:06:44] clearly regarding the president's health or ability to do the job yes we're [1:06:53] getting close to the end of our hour but just quickly Ian Sams testified that I [1:07:00] don't want to misrepresent the exact number of times but that he did not [1:07:04] interact with President Biden very often in person and he was certainly asked to [1:07:09] make statements particularly in the context of the Robert Herr report [1:07:13] and [1:07:14] um pushing back against the concerns about President Biden's I think in that [1:07:19] case primarily memory did Ian Sams come to you to discuss how to respond to those concerns [1:07:29] come to me for to help him how to respond to those concerns [1:07:35] are you aware of how Ian Sams got his direction for how to respond to these concerns since he [1:07:42] did not interact with President Biden very often Ian Sams didn't work for me he didn't [1:07:48] report to me so I would not have been involved in how he engaged or interacted [1:07:53] with with the press in his job because he wasn't under my um under my tutelage [1:08:01] if you will under he didn't work for me I wasn't his direct report so you have [1:08:05] no knowledge of how his response to questions in the context of the her [1:08:10] report would have been made or considered that was not my uh that would not be my role with how Ian in [1:08:19] um would go and speak to the press about I just wasn't involved in that yes yes but yes chair [1:08:28] I've never really understood why Ian Samson brought on uh he said he didn't interact with [1:08:37] the president hey you say you didn't interact with him who was telling Ian Sam what to do and [1:08:45] what to say when he would go out there seem like on a daily basis so just to correct um I I [1:08:50] interacted with Ian yeah yeah I didn't want I didn't want that to be on the record [1:08:55] I interacted with Ian because he did have a portfolio, [1:08:58] and so we definitely interacted on his portfolio. [1:09:02] I did not give him direction on how to do his job [1:09:07] because he didn't report to me. [1:09:09] My understanding, [1:09:11] because I was not involved in his hiring, [1:09:14] I wasn't part of that, [1:09:15] my understanding is that he reported [1:09:17] to the White House Council [1:09:18] because that's where he was based, [1:09:20] and also Anita Dunn, who was a senior advisor at the time. [1:09:24] That's my understanding. [1:09:26] It seems like you did a very good job for President Biden. [1:09:33] Oh, thank you. [1:09:35] I don't understand why they would bring in Sam Dunn. [1:09:39] Yeah, I can't speak to it. [1:09:41] I honestly can't speak to it. [1:09:42] And you think he reported to the council, [1:09:44] but I mean, are you sure? [1:09:46] Somebody had to tell him what to say when he got there. [1:09:48] Yeah, that's where- [1:09:49] He said a lot, a lot about me, [1:09:50] which I don't know how you think it was this, [1:09:51] but a lot about the president's health, [1:09:54] and then you come to find out he never talked to the president. [1:09:56] Well, he was, I believe his title was spokesperson [1:10:00] that was in the White House Council, [1:10:02] if I'm remembering correctly, [1:10:04] and I'm sure your team will correct me. [1:10:08] That's where he was based, [1:10:10] and that's where he kind of lived in doing his job. [1:10:15] I can't speak beyond that, but I understand your question. [1:10:19] I don't have much to share. [1:10:21] I appreciate the question, though. [1:10:24] Thank you, we'll go off the record. [1:10:31] John Pierre, I understand you have a statement [1:10:33] if you want it to read, we'll give you some time. [1:10:36] Thank you so much for this opportunity. [1:10:39] I guess it's, I don't know, is it afternoon or still morning? [1:10:42] Still morning. [1:10:43] Good morning. [1:10:45] I have been willing to voluntarily cooperate [1:10:48] with the committee from the time I received your request. [1:10:51] I'm here today to answer your questions [1:10:53] about my service in the Biden administration [1:10:56] that are within the scope of our inquiry. [1:11:00] I have fulfilled my obligations to the committee [1:11:02] by appearing before you today, [1:11:04] as requested in your letter dated June 27th, 2025. [1:11:09] I served as the 35th White House press secretary, [1:11:13] becoming the first Black person, immigrant, [1:11:15] and openly queer person to serve in that role. [1:11:18] I was the longest serving female press secretary [1:11:22] in my role, first as principal deputy press secretary, [1:11:25] and then as press secretary. [1:11:28] My job was to relay information [1:11:30] from all corners of the executive branch to the press [1:11:34] and to the American people. [1:11:36] I served in the Biden Harris administration [1:11:38] from day one through its end. [1:11:41] During this time, my focus was on the administration's [1:11:45] countless administrative and legislative accomplishments. [1:11:48] Transparency was one of my priorities, [1:11:51] and I believe the Biden Harris administration [1:11:53] shared that priority. [1:11:56] In furtherance of this priority, [1:11:58] I conducted 306 formal press briefings [1:12:01] and hundreds of . [1:12:03] Thank you. [1:12:03] Thanks, Dr. H boss. [1:12:04] interactions, I answered questions with the information I had at the time. I will be clear [1:12:11] today. At all times during President Biden's presidency, I believed that he was fully capable [1:12:17] of exercising his presidential duties and responsibilities. That is not to say that he was [1:12:24] infallible. No one is. Like any person, including presidents, President Biden made mistakes and had [1:12:32] bad days. And like any person, including presidents, President Biden physically aged over [1:12:39] the years. There was never a moment when I doubted his abilities or judgment. I can, of course, only [1:12:46] speak for my own observations. I've traveled with and saw the president often, but I was not party [1:12:54] to every conversation that occurred in the administration. I had an important and visible [1:13:00] role in the administration. [1:13:02] But my [1:13:02] role was only one of many important roles throughout the executive branch. I'm honored to [1:13:08] have had the privilege of serving the president and the American people. Thank you for this time. [1:13:13] Thank you, Michelle and Pierre. You, as press secretary, you were a deputy, [1:13:20] principal deputy press secretary at the beginning of the administration. And as [1:13:23] press secretary, you, I think you told my colleagues, you saw the president once, [1:13:27] about once a day, on average, once a day. And you traveled with him quite frequently on [1:13:33] the [1:13:33] same day. And just so we have a clear record, was it ever your view that President Biden was unable [1:13:39] to make decisions about the matters within the scope of his presidential duties? [1:13:43] No. [1:13:44] Was it ever your view that President Biden was unable to fulfill, [1:13:49] to fully execute the duties of his office? [1:13:52] No. [1:13:53] And did you ever have any concerns about President Biden's ability to handle significant policy [1:13:57] matters? [1:13:57] No. [1:13:59] And my majority colleagues have alleged the existence of a cover-up within the office. [1:14:05] With respect to President Biden's mental acuity. Also, in interest of making sure we have a [1:14:10] clear record, Ms. Jean-Pierre, you have no knowledge that Joe Biden was at any point [1:14:15] in time mentally unable to execute the duties of his office as president, correct? [1:14:20] Correct. [1:14:21] And to your knowledge, did anyone in the White House at any point during Joe Biden's presidency [1:14:26] ever make decisions to issue any form of clemency, pardons, or otherwise in Joe Biden's name without [1:14:34] his knowledge? [1:14:35] Or authorization? [1:14:36] No. [1:14:37] And did you ever make decisions to issue any form of clemency, pardons, or otherwise in [1:14:43] Joe Biden's name without his knowledge or authorization? [1:14:46] No. [1:14:47] And again, at any point during the Biden presidency, did anyone in the White House, [1:14:52] to your knowledge, ever issue any other type of executive order without President Biden's [1:14:57] knowledge or authorization? [1:14:59] To my knowledge, no. [1:15:00] So to your knowledge, all decisions to issue executive orders during the Biden administration [1:15:05] were made by President Biden alone? [1:15:06] Yes, to my knowledge. [1:15:07] And no one exercised the power on his behalf? [1:15:10] To my knowledge. [1:15:11] And lastly, aside – apart from the instances in which President Biden delegated authority [1:15:16] to Vice President Harris while he was undergoing a medical procedure, did anyone, to your knowledge, [1:15:22] ever step in to carry out the duties of the presidency into Biden's place because he was [1:15:26] unable to do so? [1:15:27] No. [1:15:28] Thank you. [1:15:29] Great. [1:15:30] We'll go off record. [1:15:31] As a general question, have you discussed this interview today with anyone besides your [1:15:46] immediate family and your counsel? [1:15:48] No. [1:15:50] I think you mentioned that you have spoken with former President Biden since he left [1:15:57] office. [1:15:57] Is that right? [1:15:58] Yes. [1:16:00] On more than one occasion, or was it one time? [1:16:03] To my knowledge, it was one time. [1:16:05] No, it was one time. [1:16:06] It was a couple times over a week period. [1:16:10] Okay. [1:16:10] When was that? [1:16:12] It was early May. [1:16:14] And in your conversations in early May with former President Biden, what did you discuss? [1:16:20] I was talking to him. [1:16:21] I was talking to him about an interview that he was about to do. [1:16:24] So it was a prep, if you will. [1:16:27] And anything related to this investigation? [1:16:31] Not to my knowledge. [1:16:33] What was the interview about? [1:16:36] It was the VIEW interview. [1:16:37] I think you all probably watched it. [1:16:39] I was part of a team that prepped him for it. [1:16:44] So just to be clear, you had no conversations with former President Biden about the contents [1:16:49] of your testimony today or what you would testify to? [1:16:52] No. [1:16:53] And just one of your former questions, Peter. [1:16:55] I believe, and I don't have the transcript in front of me, I believe Mr. Bates told us [1:16:59] that while you were having a phone conversation, this investigation came up with him. [1:17:07] Do you remember that? [1:17:09] I'm sorry. [1:17:09] Can you just explain that a little? [1:17:11] I want to make sure we're tracking the question. [1:17:13] Who is having the conversation with who? [1:17:16] Sure. [1:17:17] When we had an interview with Andrew Bates, I believe he told us that there was a phone [1:17:23] conversation in which this came up in passing. [1:17:28] Is that correct? [1:17:28] So I know what you're talking about. [1:17:31] It was probably the day that we both got the letter. [1:17:35] And I think it was one of those, are you okay conversations. [1:17:39] And then we both decided on that call that we should not be moving forward to not talk [1:17:44] to each other. [1:17:45] Understood. [1:17:45] Any similar conversations? [1:17:47] No. [1:17:48] Thank you. [1:17:48] No. [1:17:50] And during that conversation with Mr. Bates, did you have any conversation of what topics [1:17:55] might be brought up in these interviews? [1:17:58] No. [1:17:58] Okay. [1:17:59] Just are you okay checking in on you? [1:18:02] Okay. [1:18:02] That's it. [1:18:02] We don't need to talk anymore. [1:18:04] Sounds good. [1:18:04] Thank you. [1:18:06] Oh, listening to your statement that you just read, I think you made reference to President [1:18:16] Biden having bad days. [1:18:18] Do I have that correct? [1:18:19] Correct. [1:18:21] How did you know President Biden was having a bad day? [1:18:25] I was speaking in generalities, right? [1:18:29] Not everybody, we're not perfect. [1:18:31] We have good days and bad days. [1:18:33] So I was speaking in general. [1:18:35] Did anybody ever say, inform you, the president's having a bad day today? [1:18:43] Not that I recall. [1:18:44] Not specifically in that way. [1:18:46] Well, what do you consider a bad day? [1:18:54] I mean, I'm speaking for myself, right? [1:18:57] Not for anybody else. [1:18:58] Sure. [1:18:59] Let's start with what you consider a bad day. [1:19:00] I mean, I think we all have bad days, right? [1:19:03] You don't feel like, at least for me, right? [1:19:05] As White House Press Secretary, maybe I came off the podium and I was like, oh, that didn't [1:19:09] feel good, right? [1:19:10] Sure. [1:19:10] Or I felt like I... [1:19:12] Could have been, you know, more sharp or whatever. [1:19:16] Like you critique, we critique ourselves very harshly. [1:19:20] And I think in that regard, in that regard. [1:19:24] And it's big to us, but sometimes it's small to others, right? [1:19:28] So. [1:19:29] Are you aware of anybody ever instructing either President Biden, a member of staff [1:19:40] at the White House, that maybe the president shouldn't do something because he's having [1:19:46] a bad day? [1:19:47] No. [1:19:52] On March 26th, 2022, soon after Russia invaded Ukraine, President Biden spoke at, spoke [1:20:00] in Warsaw, Poland, and he said, quote, for God's sake, this man cannot remain in power [1:20:07] with regard to Vladimir Putin. [1:20:10] I think this is March 26th, 2022 is shortly before you became press secretary. [1:20:15] Is that right? [1:20:15] You were deputy still at that time. [1:20:19] Can you say that again? [1:20:21] I'm so sorry. [1:20:21] I'm just trying to... [1:20:22] Sure. [1:20:22] This is a quote from President Biden from March 26th, 2022. [1:20:27] So I'm just stating for the record, I believe you started as press secretary on May 13th. [1:20:34] So shortly after that. [1:20:35] So during this time that this was said, you were deputy? [1:20:40] Yes. [1:20:40] If you're talking about March 2022, yes. [1:20:43] So I can read the quote again if you'd like, but do you mind? [1:20:46] Sure. [1:20:46] President Biden stated, quote, for God's sake, this man cannot remain in power. [1:20:51] End quote. [1:20:53] With regard to Vladimir Putin. [1:20:56] Do you recall that? [1:20:56] Not specifically. [1:20:59] It vaguely sounds familiar. [1:21:00] Okay. [1:21:02] So do you recall what the White House said after that statement was made? [1:21:10] I mean, I wasn't the press secretary at the time, so I don't recall. [1:21:15] Do you believe that President Biden meant to say what he was saying when he appeared to call for [1:21:25] President Putin to be... [1:21:26] Look, I don't specifically remember that moment. [1:21:33] And so I did not have a conversation with him directly because I was not the press secretary [1:21:38] at the time. [1:21:38] Sure. [1:21:39] I can't speak to... [1:21:41] I can't characterize what the president was meant. [1:21:45] But you were principal deputy press secretary. [1:21:47] Yeah. [1:21:47] So when something like this would come up, was that not the deputy press secretary or [1:21:55] other people in the office? [1:21:56] Did they not handle things like this? [1:21:58] I think what I'm trying to say is I wasn't the press secretary at the time. [1:22:02] So this would have been something that I don't directly remember. [1:22:08] And so I can't speak to how that played out. [1:22:12] I mean, I said earlier that as deputy press secretary, I didn't see him as often. [1:22:19] So this would be something that my predecessor would have handled directly, [1:22:24] would be able to speak to. [1:22:26] Well, I believe that that statement was walked back slightly. [1:22:30] In the aftermath. [1:22:31] And so would something like that be what you mean by a bad day, for instance? [1:22:38] Look, I think what I can say is, and you guys heard it, right? [1:22:47] People have bad days. [1:22:50] Nobody's perfect, even presidents in my statement, right? [1:22:53] Like all of us. [1:22:58] And my observation, more broadly, continues to be that he was still very much competent [1:23:08] to do this. [1:23:08] He was very good at the job. [1:23:13] And again, that's why I wanted to be really clear that we all have bad days. [1:23:18] We all have missteps. [1:23:20] And we're not perfect. [1:23:24] Maybe it's helpful if we talk about some other examples when you were press secretary. [1:23:28] So this is on May 23rd, 2022. [1:23:31] So just for the record, that was after you became press secretary. [1:23:34] Is that right? [1:23:34] Yes, yes. [1:23:36] So speaking alongside Japanese Prime Minister Kishida in Tokyo, President Biden was asked, [1:23:43] quote, [1:23:43] are you willing to get involved militarily to defend Taiwan if it comes to that? [1:23:48] And President Biden responded, yes. [1:23:51] The reporter responded, surprised, you are. [1:23:54] And President Biden stated, that's the commitment we made. [1:23:58] Do you recall that? [1:24:00] Yeah, I recall. [1:24:03] Were you surprised by President Biden's statement in that moment? [1:24:07] In that moment? [1:24:08] I can't speak to what I was thinking in that moment. [1:24:12] Did that statement appear to be at odds with what you understood to be President Biden or, [1:24:17] I guess, America's policy toward Taiwan? [1:24:22] From where our policy was, yes. [1:24:28] I'm sorry, could you be more specific? [1:24:30] Well, I was answering your question. [1:24:32] What, like, where our policy was? [1:24:34] Was it at odds? [1:24:35] Yes. [1:24:41] Were you consulted in or were you involved in the handling of the aftermath of that? [1:24:48] Yes. [1:24:50] Did you advise President Biden on how to handle that issue going forward? [1:24:54] I think we, I think- [1:24:55] Yeah. [1:24:56] think uh we all talked through with him uh about the statement i look i can't i want to be really [1:25:03] i can't specifically remember the conversation but i was certainly part of the conversation yes [1:25:08] sure did president biden explain how the mix-up if it was a mix-up how how it happened what happened [1:25:16] honestly i can't recall the specifics of the conversation on how he uh explained it do you [1:25:24] believe president biden knew what he was saying when he said it or did he misspeak what look i [1:25:31] think that um we had a conversation about it um i i i cannot recall specifically how it went back [1:25:43] and forth um and so it's hard for me to characterize that today i think in your opening [1:25:49] statement you said something on the lines of you never had a moment where you doubted president [1:25:54] biden's judgment um and and this instance [1:25:58] of seemingly forgetting about strategic ambiguity with regard to taiwan that that wouldn't stand out [1:26:05] to you as an instance where his judgment was that question the president was in the in the job for [1:26:11] four years and i think his record shows that he made critical important decision that mattered [1:26:19] to the american people whether domestically or foreign [1:26:23] we're talking about two moments i think he just laid out to me [1:26:30] and he had 37 press conferences during his time and that does not take away from believing that [1:26:39] this was the president that was indeed competent to lead and to move this country forward sure i [1:26:45] understand that you've been very clear i think on that but i just i don't mean to split hairs [1:26:49] you just said that there was never a moment where you doubted his judgment that continues to be true [1:26:53] so in that that moment where he appeared to forget or reject strategic [1:26:59] ambiguity you you have no you had no concerns about his judgment i wouldn't use that moment as [1:27:05] an only time or a moment that would me that would make me question anything about his [1:27:12] competency i that does not change my statement okay well a third example um on june 20th [1:27:20] 2023 again that being while you were white house press secretary is that correct yeah yeah president [1:27:26] biden attended a fundraiser uh with governor gavin newsom in california [1:27:30] during fundraiser president biden called chinese president xi jinping a dictator [1:27:37] um i guess similar questions were do you recall that instance uh yes um were you surprised when [1:27:44] president biden said that i don't remember my initial reaction but i do recall so i guess [1:27:51] similarly then did did that statement appear to be at odds with the white house's general stance on [1:27:59] china or president xi jinping yes do you believe that president [1:28:05] biden meant to say that when he said it what i will continue to believe is that this president [1:28:12] was more than confident to lead and move this country forward i can't get into characterizing [1:28:18] or explaining for the president in that moment what he was thinking i guess the reason these [1:28:24] examples stick out to me is in the course of our interviews and certainly my knowledge of [1:28:30] president biden's career um you know chairman of the senate foreign relations committee [1:28:36] and his uh his expertise in foreign policy is something that many of the witnesses have [1:28:44] brought up even as something that distracted him at times from being sharp on domestic issues and [1:28:50] so these missteps appear do you not think that they're a reflection of his waning abilities [1:28:59] i think that presidents i don't think it's just joe biden presidents have had misspeaks missteps i [1:29:12] think i said that in my opening statement [1:29:14] this is not a a specific to one president i think that we can go go back [1:29:20] and look at other presidents who have had um similar situations i think when it comes to his [1:29:28] competency when it comes to again getting things done when i was there in the four years for the [1:29:34] american people doing some historic policies moving forward some historic policies and [1:29:38] legislation it would not have happened if it wasn't for this president's experience it would [1:29:44] have happened if it wasn't for his leadership and again i mean it goes back to what i said in my [1:29:49] statement that we were not perfect i guess i won't believe the point but you know certainly [1:29:58] as you mentioned president biden you know made an uncountable number of statements and [1:30:04] um over the course of his presidency and certainly you know all presidents are bound to have a [1:30:09] misstep here or there and the reason that these and maybe some others will bring up that we will [1:30:14] bring up today stand out to me is because they they do have very strong missteps and there's a lot your [1:30:17] appear to be something that President Biden operating at full capacity would [1:30:22] not have gotten wrong you don't see it that way no no I think again I'm in my [1:30:28] statement I mentioned presidents with an asset that is very much something that [1:30:33] happens with presidents with all of us at times from time to time but in those [1:30:38] four years that I worked with him he was able to accomplish a lot and he was more [1:30:43] than capable of doing the job and got things done in those four years and we [1:30:47] used to say this all the time that most presidents couldn't get done in their [1:30:50] first first two two terms and there are two terms when you were I understand [1:31:00] what you're saying about this stuff when you were debriefing or talking with [1:31:10] President Biden about how to how to handle any kind of fallout from these [1:31:19] rather significant missteps in terms of what American foreign policy was you're [1:31:27] talking with him how would he [1:31:30] how would he [1:31:30] respond what I can remember he took it in he took it in he listened and that's [1:31:39] what I could remember specifics or details of is like he just took it in [1:31:46] did he ever say no I said what I said you know to be effective I said what I [1:31:52] said and I meant it I don't remember that those interactions specifically but [1:31:57] I know any time that I would bring something up or I would say this is what [1:32:01] the press is saying most of the time he would just take it in and listen did you [1:32:06] President Biden um yell in response to somebody trying to clean up something but he had said [1:32:14] not that I recall you ever see president Biden you know not that I recall specifically and so [1:32:25] to be clear you don't recall in any of those instances that I those three instances that I [1:32:31] just discussed with you you don't recall president Biden expressing regret about what he had said [1:32:37] I don't remember the specific conversation that's what I can share with you did he ever say when a [1:32:44] was presented to clean up what had been said or clarify what he meant did he you [1:32:53] know approve that kind of cleanup normally if it's coming from him he [1:32:58] would he would approve it yes what if it were coming from someone else no meaning [1:33:03] like if if we would flag something like that to him again you're asking me for [1:33:08] granular details over the back and forth that I that I can't remember the [1:33:13] granular but I can speak to the process and he would he would sign off on that [1:33:19] so just just for clarity's sake you're talking generally about the process [1:33:24] generally about the process if there was something that we wanted to make sure he [1:33:29] was comfortable with saying yes in general the process was that were there [1:33:37] deviations from that general process not that I recall and with those missteps [1:33:52] did you see those [1:33:54] did you see those [1:33:55] did you see those missteps [1:33:55] did you going back to your time your entire time knowing Joe Biden did you see [1:34:01] those increase as as he aged I can't speak to frequency or the amount of if [1:34:21] it increased I just know that we all have them and it happens but I can't as [1:34:28] you know I said this before did he get older yes did he age yes and he would [1:34:34] say this I think he said many times about [1:34:38] about him getting older and that's speaking as well and that walking as well [1:34:42] this is something coming directly from him so he acknowledged that he aged I [1:34:48] can't speak to the frequency I understand change sorry yeah and I [1:34:53] understand getting older and I understand that being slower is part of [1:35:02] getting older but I think you've lumped that in President Biden lumped that in [1:35:10] with speaking as well and that raises different issues I believe don't you think [1:35:14] so I I'm not a medical expert so I can't speak to that well okay did you [1:35:22] fair did you notice from your entire time knowing him that his speaking [1:35:26] um deteriorated what I will say is I his age he definitely aged uh we all make missteps we all [1:35:45] have bad days did he have some obviously I said that at the top that he did I was not tracking [1:35:54] every [1:35:55] thing that happened every day so I can't speak to frequency I'm not an expert so [1:36:01] I can't really speak to that so you think president Biden speaking ability [1:36:06] today or in 2024 is the same as when you first met him in 2009 obviously it's not [1:36:12] what about it changed I can't speak to specifics but I mean 2009 to 2024 it is [1:36:22] a lot of time has has has lapsed none of all of us change all of us age it's been [1:36:32] reported that again I don't have the book we will certainly be reading the [1:36:37] book vice president of yours as well but vice president Harris's book is reported [1:36:46] to have said reports to say at 81 Joe got tired that's when his age showed in [1:36:53] physical and verbal stumbles [1:36:55] I did not I haven't read the book I did not read the excerpt I can't speak to it [1:37:01] okay well let's take out the fact that it's an excerpt from a book do you agree [1:37:05] with Joe got tired that's when his age showed in physical and verbal stumbles [1:37:11] that's not my observation my observation that this was somebody who was always [1:37:18] running around and doing things on behalf of the American people whether [1:37:22] that's traveling whether that's speaking in front of [1:37:26] you know the people that are in front of you know the people that are in front of you [1:37:26] know the people that are in front of you or they're coming forth so people [1:37:27] of America you know American people at the White House and talking about events [1:37:30] I've been talking about policies or what it is that we're doing for the American [1:37:34] people I that is not my experience who saw president by more do you think [1:37:42] between you and Vice President Harris I believe I did because I traveled with [1:37:50] him and saw him every day so it's our understanding that you would oftentimes [1:38:03] have a [1:38:05] binder or book of talking points, is that right? It is not unusual for a White [1:38:11] House press secretary to have a binder. Sure, but I've never been the White House [1:38:16] press secretary, so what usually is included in a binder like that? [1:38:20] And who prepares it? Yeah, that's why I was sharing it's not unusual for a [1:38:24] White House press secretary to have a binder. It is a collective process. So by [1:38:34] people from your team as well as people from outside of your team, is that right? [1:38:39] People from my team and people outside of me. And this would include talking points mainly [1:38:45] for you to answer questions at the podium from reporters or other types of [1:38:51] talking points as well? The purpose of the binder is [1:38:56] to have points in the book to address many topics, domestic, foreign [1:39:03] topics primarily. Were there ever talking points [1:39:07] in your book related to President Biden's health, cognitive abilities, [1:39:13] mental acuity, kind of all those sorts of related topics? Yes, because it was [1:39:18] questions that the press was asking. Do you recall what the general theme of [1:39:24] those talking points was? I mean I did press briefings, so I think what I said [1:39:29] is out there on the record about answering those specific questions. [1:39:35] So your public statements reflect exactly what [1:39:39] generally would have been put in those binders. And just to clarify, because the [1:39:47] question is a slightly convoluted, and I don't mean that in a critical [1:39:51] way, you said exactly generally reflect. I just want to make clear that I [1:39:57] think the answer was probably generally reflects what was in the book. [1:40:01] No, no, no. Appreciate it. Thank you. No judgment on binders. We're using binders. As I could see from here. [1:40:17] Did you read the binder? Like, what do you do? It's a huge binder. You read the binder every night before him? [1:40:25] Well, just want to make sure this is clear. Like every other White House press secretary, [1:40:30] we have binders, notes, whatever you want to call it, because we want to make sure that [1:40:36] we are accurate in pushing information out to the American public. And so that's why [1:40:44] that exists. [1:40:47] As far as my process, [1:40:48] I read, you know, read the binder pretty regularly. I focused on it pretty [1:40:55] regularly because that was my job to do so. [1:40:57] And who would prepare talking points for [1:41:01] regarding President Biden's help for the binder? [1:41:06] That would, it depends, it depended on if it was certainly any memo or anything [1:41:16] like that that came out from the [1:41:19] doctor. It would certainly have his involvement. And outside of that, it was senior advisors [1:41:27] and the communications team. [1:41:30] Do you think Anita Dunn played a role in that in preparation for with bullets or memos regarding [1:41:39] the president's help? [1:41:41] I can't speak to what she did specifically on anything, memos or anything like that. [1:41:47] I can't speak specifically, but she certainly was part of the senior advisors. [1:41:51] She was part of the senior advisors that we would ask, that my team would speak to about [1:41:54] certain issues. [1:41:55] And when you make reference to the doctor, you're speaking about Dr. Kevin O'Connor? [1:41:59] Yes. [1:42:00] And his team, presumably? [1:42:03] It was primarily him directly. [1:42:05] How often would you interact with Dr. O'Connor? [1:42:07] Not often. I would, I would, he would travel. When he traveled with the president, I would [1:42:14] certainly interact and see him. [1:42:17] And I assume that when the president's annual health report would come out, you know, that's [1:42:25] when you would speak more regularly or in the run-up to that with Dr. O'Connor? [1:42:32] Not in the run-up, mostly afterwards. [1:42:35] And it was, my question was ambiguous. The afterwards, meaning after you had gone and [1:42:43] spoken in front of the press or afterwards, after his examination? [1:42:48] Yeah. To be clear, I had, I was not involved in the memo process that Dr. O'Connor did. [1:42:53] I had no involvement in that. [1:42:55] I, my, my team and I would put that. [1:42:58] Put that out there. [1:42:59] When one of the memo was ready, it came to my team and we would share it with the American [1:43:04] public. [1:43:05] And the times that I engaged with him was usually when there were additional press inquiries [1:43:11] or they wanted to understand something better or wanted more clarity in the memo. [1:43:18] And that's when my team, somebody from my team would, would go to him directly just [1:43:23] to ask for clarity. [1:43:26] Did Dr. O'Connor ever instruct you or advise you? [1:43:28] No. [1:43:29] On the, the book, The Binder, of Talking Points, I think you said various people at various [1:43:43] times would contribute to this binder or book, would a, was there one person who was ultimately [1:43:50] responsible for putting it together? [1:43:52] Was that you? [1:43:53] Like putting the book together? [1:43:54] There's usually, is that what you're talking about? [1:43:57] Yeah. [1:43:58] Yeah. [1:43:59] There's usually a junior person that's in charge of making, like making sure everything [1:44:01] is in the book, but I was responsible for it ultimately. [1:44:05] So if there were a talking point about President Biden's health or fitness in the book, would, [1:44:13] would you know, would it be denoted in some way who that came from? [1:44:21] Meaning, can you say more? [1:44:23] So if, if you are getting a question from the press about President Biden's health and [1:44:27] you looked in your book and there was a state, a talking point, a suggested talking point [1:44:32] on that topic, was it denoted in some way who had prepared that talking point or how [1:44:38] would you know? [1:44:39] Who had prepared that topic? [1:44:40] So in no way, in nowhere in the book did that exist. [1:44:44] So in general then, how would you know who had prepared a specific talking point? [1:44:50] It depended, I think I explained before that people had portfolios. [1:44:56] And so usually a policy or topic or issue was in someone's portfolio and so they owned [1:45:02] that portfolio. [1:45:03] And so they would be, that's, that's how I would know where it came from. [1:45:08] And just, I can't remember and I don't have the transcript. [1:45:10] Confirm for me what you just said, what you said last hour, you, you do not remember who, [1:45:15] whose portfolio was President Biden's health, is that correct? [1:45:19] That usually came from senior advisors in the communications team and in my team. [1:45:25] I mean, it was coming from various places, but usually senior advisors were, were in, [1:45:32] were kind of in charge and that would primarily be Anita Dunn. [1:45:38] What other issues besides President Biden's health were, were in charge of? [1:45:39] What other issues besides President Biden's health were, were in charge of? [1:45:40] What other issues besides President Biden's health were, were in charge of? [1:45:42] What other issues besides President Biden's health were, were dealt with? [1:45:43] What other issues besides President Biden's health were, were dealt with? [1:45:44] At the senior advisor's level exclusively. [1:45:45] There, there were a lot of issues. [1:45:47] It wasn't just that. [1:45:48] You're asking me about the health, but there were a lot of issues like if we're announcing, [1:45:52] for example, an important policy or legislation, talking to Congress about certain things, [1:46:01] that would certainly, be at the senior, senior advisor level. [1:46:05] So it was, they handled an array of things that we wanted to make sure that they got [1:46:09] signed off on. [1:46:10] Is it fair to say that? [1:46:13] If a particular issue were being handled by the senior advisors, that it was an issue [1:46:18] that was significant? [1:46:21] I wouldn't necessarily say that because it was an array of things, again, talking to [1:46:28] leadership or an important issue that was announcement of a legislation or a policy. [1:46:36] But those sound significant. [1:46:37] They sound significant, but I don't want to limit it to that. [1:46:42] It could be, I mean, things could rise to that level in any issue. [1:46:46] We'll talk a little bit more about the Her report, I think, at some point. [1:46:51] But so just briefly, and I want to separate, I think the Her report issue is, there's kind [1:46:57] of two separate issues. [1:46:58] So taking the president's memory and the related concerns raised by special counsel [1:47:04] Her on that topic, who would have provided talking points about that for the briefing [1:47:10] before? [1:47:11] That would have come, that came from Ian. [1:47:13] And the White House counsel team and Anita Dunn. [1:47:17] So the statement that Ian Sams made, and I believe you may have used this word as well. [1:47:23] I don't have it in front of me. [1:47:24] So feel free to correct me and we can check as well. [1:47:26] But the term gratuitous was brought up a number of times. [1:47:31] Was that something that originated with Ian Sams? [1:47:34] That originated from that side of things. [1:47:36] Yeah. [1:47:37] Ian, Anita and that team. [1:47:38] Yes. [1:47:40] And just, sorry, for clarity's sake. [1:47:42] Are you saying it is? [1:47:43] Are you saying it is specifically your recollection that it was Ian or it was that team of people? [1:47:48] My specific recollection, to be more clear, it came from that group of people. [1:47:53] I don't know who wrote it. [1:47:54] I don't know who decided on that word. [1:47:57] I can't speak to that. [1:47:59] Sure. [1:48:00] But generally it would be Ian Sams who would handle providing talking points out of that [1:48:05] office to you? [1:48:06] Yes. [1:48:07] Did you ever, was there ever an instance where you had to go and follow up with Ian Sams [1:48:13] about one of those talking points? [1:48:16] Not that I recall. [1:48:17] So not on the HER report? [1:48:18] I mean, it's not that I recall. [1:48:21] Did we have conversations? [1:48:22] Did we go back and forth? [1:48:23] Yes. [1:48:30] And just quickly on the process of compiling the binder, I know you said various people, [1:48:34] including yourself, had put talking points in it. [1:48:37] Was there a final review of everything that was added to the binder? [1:48:41] Yeah, from the communications team. [1:48:43] And just the communications team or any other? [1:48:45] I mean, sometimes they would pull in senior advisors. [1:48:49] And there's also policy. [1:48:50] And folks as well that would be involved. [1:48:52] Sometimes folks from the different agencies would be involved as well if it's an issue [1:48:57] that's coming from that agency. [1:48:59] But the communications team was the primary because they deal with the messaging. [1:49:05] And did President Biden ever review the binder talking points? [1:49:10] What was in my binder? [1:49:12] Not that I recall. [1:49:17] At a press briefing on July 2nd, 2024, a reporter stated, [1:49:23] quote, the administration strongly criticized the media for clips showing the president [1:49:28] appearing to be confused, freezing at times. [1:49:31] You called it cheap fakes, misinformation, disinformation, and in one case implied that [1:49:36] it was the product of artificial intelligence, calling it deep fakes. [1:49:40] Do you have any regret over using that language? [1:49:43] End quote. [1:49:44] You responded, quote, no, not at all. [1:49:47] And let me be clear, it was a certain part of the media. [1:49:53] End quote. [1:49:57] Was the term cheap fakes? [1:49:58] No, not at all. [1:49:59] Was the term cheap fakes something that was put into the binder? [1:50:03] Meaning? [1:50:08] When you used the term cheap fakes, was that your choice of words in the moment or [1:50:17] was that something that had been prepared ahead of time as a talking point? [1:50:20] It was prepared. [1:50:21] Do you know who prepared that? [1:50:25] It came from, again, various offices, departments in creating the talking points for that particular [1:50:35] issue. [1:50:37] Sure. [1:50:38] But to be more specific. [1:50:39] Who would generally handle- [1:50:41] I don't recall. [1:50:43] If you're asking me where that came from specifically, I just don't recall. [1:50:48] And did you or did anyone ever verify if the videos you were talking about were in fact [1:50:54] cheap fakes? [1:50:55] I believe so. [1:50:57] What is a cheap fake? [1:50:59] I really don't know. [1:51:00] It was something that we did not coin, it was something that the media coined. [1:51:05] They did the work. [1:51:06] They did the legwork on coming up with that terminology. [1:51:12] End quote. [1:51:13] And so we were just elevating essentially what the media was saying, what the press [1:51:18] was saying. [1:51:20] So do you know where it is? [1:51:21] I mean, it basically is laid out with how you defined it with what President Biden was [1:51:29] actually doing and it took away from what he was actually doing or created an illusion [1:51:35] of something that just did not exist, but using him. [1:51:39] And so that is what we were calling out. [1:51:42] And the press was calling it out too. [1:51:44] Right. [1:51:45] We're just elevating it in the briefing room. [1:51:48] But were all clips circulated on social media or otherwise showing President Biden being [1:51:56] confused or freezing at times, were those all fakes? [1:51:59] I can't speak to everything that was on social media. [1:52:05] Sure. [1:52:06] But there were instances where videos were circulated of President Biden appearing confused [1:52:12] or freezing for a moment that were real, correct? [1:52:18] Not that I recall. [1:52:19] This... [1:52:20] What we were trying to lift up was something that was very, very clear that what they were [1:52:26] showing was not actually what was happening. [1:52:29] Did you ever see President Biden appear confused? [1:52:31] No. [1:52:34] What about during the debate performance? [1:52:36] Did he not appear confused to you there? [1:52:39] He... [1:52:41] During the debate performance, he seemingly to me looked like he had a cold. [1:52:47] And that's what he said. [1:52:49] And I... [1:52:51] From someone who saw him every day. [1:52:52] That's what I was able to see. [1:52:53] Yeah. [1:52:54] That's what I saw. [1:52:55] Someone who had a cold, who was hoarse, and that is something that he said that he had. [1:53:01] So when he said, we finally beat Medicare, that's indicative of a cold to you? [1:53:06] I think he was sick. [1:53:08] I can't speak to what was... [1:53:10] I can't speak to what he was thinking at the time. [1:53:14] He said it was a bad night. [1:53:16] He said it was a bad performance. [1:53:18] Is it fair to say, though, that it was reported in the press after the debate that President [1:53:26] Biden appeared to be confused when he delivered that line about beating Medicare? [1:53:29] I mean, I can't characterize what the president was feeling or thinking. [1:53:34] I'm sorry. [1:53:35] But not... [1:53:36] No, no. [1:53:37] I hear. [1:53:38] Regardless of whether you think he was confused, do you think that the American people thought [1:53:41] that he was confused in that moment? [1:53:44] I think it was a bad debate. [1:53:45] And he said it was a bad debate. [1:53:47] And I think it was indeed a misstep. [1:53:49] I do think it was a misstep. [1:53:52] And that's what it looked like. [1:53:56] And that's what he said. [1:53:57] That it was a bad debate. [1:53:59] Well, and the reason I don't mean to split hairs, the reason I'm asking, I think this [1:54:04] question that was raised to you at this press briefing was very shortly after the debate. [1:54:08] And so the way I read that is, were all of the clips of President... [1:54:18] So this is my question. [1:54:19] Were all of the clips being circulated of President Biden where he appeared to be confused, [1:54:24] they weren't all cheap fakes, were they? [1:54:27] You're asking me to speak to a hypothetical that I can't answer. [1:54:31] I don't know all of the videos or tapes that are out there. [1:54:36] I can't. [1:54:37] I just can't answer that. [1:54:38] I can't speak to that. [1:54:39] So you don't think that your characterization of these videos as being cheap fakes may have [1:54:43] been misleading to people who are seeing clips from the debate where President Biden, in [1:54:48] my opinion, appeared to be confused? [1:54:52] You don't think that that was a confusing statement? [1:54:54] I think you're bringing a bunch of things together. [1:55:00] My... [1:55:01] I don't believe that... [1:55:02] I don't believe that... [1:55:03] I don't believe that... [1:55:04] ...that's what I was doing, misleading the American people. [1:55:08] I was lifting up something that the press themselves talked about and laid out and we [1:55:17] were really just making that clear, as well to the American people, something that the [1:55:23] press talked about in those particular moments. [1:55:27] And we're speaking about specific videos. [1:55:32] So there, there were specific videos that you were referring to with cheap fakes? [1:55:36] There were specific videos that the press talked about. [1:55:38] It wasn't just plenty, right? [1:55:39] was referring to the cheap fakes and that's what we were lifting up did you ever clarify the specific [1:55:45] videos that you meant when you called them cheap fakes I mean I don't recall I mean I think at the [1:55:50] time it was very clear to the press what I was talking about I don't think there was confusion [1:55:55] in the press room at the time about what we're talking about because it was all over the news [1:55:59] it was being reported on pretty heavily um so switching gears a little bit um neurologist Dr [1:56:22] Kevin canard visited the executive mansion eight times in eight months between 2023 and 2024. [1:56:29] um do you recall these visits I mean I know that it was reported on uh do you know what prompted [1:56:38] those visits I believe there was a statement that was put on put out by Dr O'Connor explaining so I [1:56:45] would have to refer you to that statement so at the time your only knowledge of Dr canard's visits [1:56:50] would have been the publicly available memo from at the time I think [1:56:55] it was reported by the press first and then uh there was a supplemental memo that came out from [1:57:01] Dr O'Connor so you recall that the supplemental memo yes I recall the supplemental memo being [1:57:16] released uh to explain uh Dr canard's visits um and then at a press briefing on July 8th 2024 you [1:57:24] cited quote security reasons unquote when referring to um when refusing to explain the details of the [1:57:33] neurologist [1:57:34] visits um you never said what those security concerns were I believe the memo the supplemental [1:57:41] memo spoke to um took spoke to Dr canard's visits and I would refer you to that have you ever heard [1:57:49] the name um Dr canard before this was reported not that I recall did you ever hear about a [1:57:58] neurologist visiting um the White House prior to this being reported on not that I recall as you [1:58:06] know as it's connected to his physical he sees an array of um specialist but I know I would have to [1:58:13] say no I don't know any visits from Dr canard and beyond learning this and um did you um you received [1:58:28] questions correct about the president um engaged participating or somehow completing a cognitive [1:58:39] you received those questions correct correct [1:58:46] did you know of the president in fact taking a cognitive exam not that I'm aware of are you [1:58:54] aware of anybody in the White House advising that the president take a cognitive exam not that I'm [1:58:59] aware of ever say like it would make my job easier if you just took the cognitive exam it's not my [1:59:07] decision to make is it uh I really don't know is it would have been inappropriate to say like this [1:59:13] would make my job easier if you just I think that's up to the medical doctor in her interview [1:59:21] uh I need to not explain that [1:59:23] um some of Biden senior advisors came to a consensus that Biden shouldn't take the [1:59:30] cognitive exam concluding that it would offer no political benefits um were you aware of those [1:59:37] discussions or I I don't recall um and I've said this earlier um as the White House press secretary [1:59:45] I'm not in every meeting right um it's not my job to be in every meeting there's some [1:59:50] conversations that are going to happen that I'm not involved in that I'm not included in [1:59:56] so you don't recall being aware that the reason that President Biden wasn't taking a cognitive [2:00:01] test was that it had been deemed that it would offer no political benefits and I will also say [2:00:07] that I wasn't part of kind of political strategy because that was not part of my portfolio and that [2:00:17] was something that I was not as a White House press secretary was not um capable of doing or [2:00:25] was part of my purview and when you said [2:00:30] the previous question that believed that it was up to the doctor for the president to take [2:00:36] a cognitive exam um that was you're referring to Dr Kevin O'Connor again yeah he was the president's [2:00:42] doctor so I was referring to Dr O'Connor and he has a team he is the president has a team [2:00:47] of doctors every president does it's not unusual and Dr O'Connor um pled the fifth when he came [2:00:55] before this committee are you aware of that yes I'm aware um do you have any reason to do you have [2:01:02] knowledge of why Dr O'Connor would plead the fifth I'm assuming it's because he's a doctor and just [2:01:10] out of uh that's what uh would not be uncommon uh that's my that's what I believe I have no idea I [2:01:17] can't speak to anything beyond that well um actually um Miss Tomasini and Mr Bernal both [2:01:25] also pled the fifth in front of this committee are you aware of that I'm aware um same question [2:01:31] do you have any knowledge about why they would do that I don't have any knowledge [2:01:38] and to the question of it was up to the doctor up to Dr O'Connor whether President Biden should take [2:01:48] a cognitive exam um did maybe you already said this but did you have a conversation with him [2:01:54] about that no and so when did you become aware or how did you become aware that Dr O'Connor did not [2:02:01] believe that President Biden required a cognitive exam when it became a question uh a very heavily [2:02:08] asked question in the brief press briefing room maybe I'm confused so so how did you become aware [2:02:16] that Dr O'Connor had said that President Biden did not oh I said it's up to no what I was trying [2:02:22] to say was that it's up to the doctor uh to make that decision and he would assume that you know [2:02:31] that he didn't think that was needed but that's up to the doctor that's not up to me because I [2:02:36] think I was asked well why didn't I ask um for him to have one and they said it's up to the medical [2:02:44] doctor what would have made your life easier if you had taken a cognitive exam I you know I didn't [2:02:52] think that way that's not how I thought about it I thought this is a medical decision it's not my [2:02:56] decision to make it's a medical decision and that was decided on outside of me in your role as press [2:03:09] secretary um did you advise on um what would what you believed would would help the White House [2:03:18] regarding what you could tell um the press or were you just given you know just or did you see your [2:03:31] I saw my role in making sure that the American people had the information that they needed that [2:03:36] was my role when it came to policy issues obviously there are policy experts who knew how to talk [2:03:42] about those issues and I would certainly take their lead on those issues and most of the things [2:03:48] that I talked about was connected to a policy connected to an issue that my colleagues would [2:03:55] certainly play a role in on how we spoke about it I asked I think in the first hour about [2:04:06] their impression of the American people's concern or whether they had concerns about President [2:04:11] Biden's mental or cognitive health and I understand you certainly can't speak for every person but [2:04:18] maybe I'll leave it to you to characterize do you do you think the American people have those types [2:04:24] of concerns that some of them have those types of concerns or many look what I know is that polling [2:04:28] was often used from reporters about what the American people believed and thought obviously [2:04:35] it's a subset of [2:04:37] a group and it's a snapshot in time when you talk about polling that that's as far as I can speak to [2:04:44] I think one of those polls that got brought up to at the time was a poll from June of 2024 that [2:04:51] found that quote 72 percent of voters do not believe that Biden has the mental or cognitive [2:04:57] health to serve as president as well as nearly half of his own party end quote and so when this [2:05:04] when we've brought that up to some of our other witnesses [2:05:07] many [2:05:08] have made hay out of separating concerns about President Biden's age from concerns about [2:05:15] President Biden's mental or cognitive health and several have said that they believe that [2:05:22] the American people were only concerned about his age and frankly I I don't believe that I [2:05:29] don't think that this poll reflects that either what do you make of that look what I can say is [2:05:34] and I think just repeating what I've said multiple times here is when it comes to his age [2:05:41] he aged we all do we saw it he talked about it he owned up to uh to how things had changed for him [2:05:48] certainly physically uh he talked about that often and what I can say my observation deals [2:05:57] with his mental acuity right is being able to do the job and this is someone who was able to [2:06:03] do the job day in and day out uh and that's what I saw um I'm not arguing the age I don't think [2:06:12] one of us are sure um we never did I didn't do that at the podium but what I wanted to make very [2:06:18] clear is that he was more incapable of doing the job that's what I observed and that I you've made [2:06:26] that clear and I I understand but I think the question is more so separately of your opinion [2:06:34] this poll says that 72 of voters do not believe that Biden has the mental or cognitive health to [2:06:40] serve as president does that sound like they were concerned about his age or does that sound like [2:06:46] they were concerned about [2:06:47] cognitive and mental health granted those things are associated with age but it's a separate [2:06:53] question is that right what I could speak to is what I observed and we've talked about the age [2:07:01] we've all been very honest about that I think and we're not trying to change that up right we have [2:07:08] said uh this is someone whose age we all age but what we also when I she's just speaking for myself [2:07:15] uh wanted to be clear as someone who saw him on a daily uh a daily [2:07:21] date if you will he was alert I would have back and forth conversation with him uh and he [2:07:32] um was always looking for information uh from me and was always trying to go back and forth with [2:07:38] him on on an issue that mattered to him and the American people I mean we had a lot of [2:07:45] conversations and this is somebody who was certainly alert and aware and focused every [2:07:52] single day right again I don't I don't want to belabor the point but other witnesses have been [2:07:58] hesitant to even admit or say that the American people had concerns about President Biden's mental [2:08:07] and cognitive health but my impression and I think my impression of your testimony today as well you [2:08:13] were fielding questions about that topic somewhat frequently independently of his age questions [2:08:19] about his cognitive and mental health is that right I was the White House press secretary [2:08:24] uh anything that the press wanted to talk about came through came through me right but including [2:08:30] that I mean I think I've been pretty clear that that is something that came up a lot in the [2:08:36] briefing room for a good part of my tenure as the White House press secretary it was talked about a [2:08:44] lot it was brought up a lot and I answered the I answered their questions every time I asked I was [2:08:49] asked about it um you said that um you would speak with President Biden [2:08:56] about the inquiries you were receiving from the press did you speak with him about inquiries you [2:09:00] were receiving about his mental acuity I would let him know what the press was was thinking about or [2:09:06] wanted to talk about or what was coming up in the briefing room what was his response to things like [2:09:12] that he took it in I don't remember a specific response but he would be like okay really like [2:09:20] he wouldn't he wouldn't be a little I would understand if somebody were offended uh if [2:09:24] they were questioning my mental acuity um but you don't you you don't remember any [2:09:30] kind of response from President Biden as I said just moments ago it was something that came up all [2:09:37] the time so it wasn't unusual for me to say this is what's coming up in the briefing room because [2:09:42] it was a constant thread if you will narrative of the administration so it wasn't unusual for [2:09:51] me to say to him hey this is coming up what would you what would you what would you actually say or [2:09:57] was there anything you wouldn't say um and you don't want to offend him by phrasing something [2:10:02] in a certain way how would you how would you it's a delicate issue yeah yeah so how would you present [2:10:08] that to him I mean look I was I was pretty forthcoming and honest with him and also he [2:10:13] would see the briefings himself sometimes right like he would see the reporting himself so he saw [2:10:19] for himself what people were saying and what the reporting was so I mean I don't wasn't telling him [2:10:25] any secrets right he saw for himself did he ever um you know have an opinion about his own mental [2:10:31] acuities I wouldn't be surprised if he did [2:10:35] um can you can you say more sure did they ever opine on the criticism that he was [2:10:41] um in some sort of cognitive decline or maybe he lost his fastball or something like that I don't [2:10:47] remember anything specific to share I don't remember anything specific again like I said [2:10:53] this was something that came up quite often are there any issues that you remember that [2:10:58] um not just this one but what an old would elicit an emotional response from President Biden when [2:11:04] you were um you know briefing him on something [2:11:07] that the press was asking about um nothing specific that I can recall what about questions [2:11:17] about um his family can you sure um what about what about congressional interest in um his son [2:11:27] Hunter Biden would that elicit an emotional response from the president um I don't remember [2:11:33] an emotional response but I would mention it to him if it came up in the briefing room and if he [2:11:39] asked so your testimony today is President Biden was when you would relay information [2:11:44] um regarding any issue at all is pretty stoic didn't what you're asking me are about specific [2:11:54] things I'm not taking a a broad brush here uh we and I said this before there many times we [2:12:03] would have a back and forth about a particular issue whether it was the economy or legislation [2:12:09] uh and we would have a healthy back and forth I think some issues he just had to take it in I [2:12:17] think it was him [2:12:18] in i wouldn't characterize it as stoic i would say he was taking it in taking in the information [2:12:26] and not to come back to the the same point that i was on but and i don't you know i actually [2:12:32] appreciate that you have the way that you've characterized this and explaining that you know [2:12:39] separating out cognitive um health and mental health from the age concerns and saying that [2:12:46] you know you were aware that the press was asking those questions and i'm only continuing to ask [2:12:51] about it because um you may be the first if not um one of the few who've actually had that [2:12:57] discussion with us in our interviews most of the time there if our witnesses have been unwilling to [2:13:03] say that that the people had concerns about president biden's yeah i didn't yeah go ahead [2:13:10] i didn't say the people had concerns i'm telling you what the press was asking me and it was pretty [2:13:15] consistent i can't like i can't speak for every person in the country i can only speak to [2:13:22] what i was asked in the briefing room and what the press was asking me and that was what i was [2:13:28] speaking to i'm not asking you to speak for every american but do you think that a significant group [2:13:39] you can characterize the grouping if you'd like but were the american people concerned [2:13:44] about president biden's cognitive or mental health again i could [2:13:47] obviously you read me one poll right that i was asked about uh i cannot i cannot do a broad [2:13:55] question talk about the the american people right i cannot it's not something that i can [2:14:01] can do what i can tell you is my experience my observation um and things that we have talked [2:14:08] about in the briefing room the president's talked about his age is that something that [2:14:13] we did not talk about directly or engage on directly so the press was very interested in [2:14:21] that topic then is that that's what you're saying yeah i've said that multiple times and the briefings [2:14:27] would prove that and you don't think that's a reflection in any way that people were also [2:14:32] concerned about it i mean i can't speak to um i can't i can't speak to that every you know every [2:14:39] outlet has their reasoning to ask questions i can't speak to that my my job as the white house [2:14:45] press secretary is to answer the questions that are before me thank you there are two more people [2:14:59] that joined so billy grant counsel for the majority hannah county professional staff thank [2:15:06] you um michelle pierre uh in the previous [2:15:09] hour you talked to my colleagues about the president's debate and they asked you about [2:15:14] the reaction to president biden's performance as i understood you do not you do not attribute the [2:15:20] president's debate performance to cognitive issues is that correct no and nothing about [2:15:25] that debate changed your understanding that joe biden was able to execute the duties of the office [2:15:30] of the president of the united states that's that's correct and uh my majority colleagues also [2:15:35] um asked you about a few examples of president biden misspeaking and um [2:15:41] you also also again you you do not attribute uh the president misspeaking to cognitive issues [2:15:48] correct and you mentioned i think whether it's in your opening or with my um majority colleagues [2:15:55] that you know presidents they speak you know it's been something they do um i would like to [2:16:01] use a few examples um from president trump um i would like to take a record of exhibit a [2:16:07] a july article that discusses president trump forgetting that he appointed [2:16:12] jerome powell as uh the fed chair thank you thank you also like to enter into the record [2:16:31] as executive b a new york times article that discusses president trump using nikki haley [2:16:36] with nancy pelosi in regards to january 6th and then i just want to make sure that i just want [2:16:51] to make sure the record is really clear about um one of the questions my colleagues my colleague [2:16:54] just asked you the first one about um whether it's correct that you did not attribute president [2:16:59] biden's debate performance to his cognitive issues i do not attribute it to his his cognitive issues [2:17:03] cognitive issues. Thank you very much. Just to be crystal clear on the record, [2:17:07] when you say cognitive issues, I want to make sure no one is suggesting there are [2:17:13] cognitive issues you're asking. Alleged. Thank you. My majority colleagues noted [2:17:25] earlier that some of the targets of this investigation chose to invoke their Fifth [2:17:29] Amendment rights. I do recall that conversation. I do. I'd like to enter into [2:17:35] the record Exhibit C, a truth social post by President Trump that states in [2:17:42] part, it was the people that knew he was cognitively impaired and that took over [2:17:47] the auto pen. They stole the presidency of the United States and put us in great [2:17:51] danger. This is treason at the highest level. A later part of that same post [2:17:55] states something very severe should happen to these treasonous thugs. This [2:18:00] post was made on May 20th, 2025. Two days later, Chairman Comer sent his first [2:18:06] round of letter to the White House. The White House sent a letter to the White House [2:18:07] requesting transcribed interviews in this investigation. I then would like to [2:18:12] enter into the record as Exhibit D, a June 4th, 2025 presidential memoranda, [2:18:20] in which President Trump directed the Attorney General to investigate, [2:18:25] quote, whether certain individuals conspired to deceive the public about [2:18:30] Biden's mental state and unconstitutionally exercised the [2:18:33] authorities and responsibilities of the President. On that same day, Chairman [2:18:42] Comer sent additional letters to senior White House officials, former White House [2:18:45] officials, requesting transcribed interviews in this investigation. My [2:18:53] majority colleagues also quoted earlier from excerpts that appear to have been [2:18:58] published from Vice President Harris's upcoming book. You said you have not read [2:19:03] the article or the excerpts. Is that correct? That is correct. I have not. I [2:19:06] will just read one more piece of the excerpt to you. On his first day, [2:19:11] President Biden, he, President Biden, was more deeply knowledgeable and more capable of [2:19:15] exercising judgment and far more compassionate than Donald Trump on his best. [2:19:20] We'll go on to our next question. [2:19:23] I'm here. Were you interviewed by special counsel Herb? [2:19:37] No. [2:19:39] How would you describe your involvement in the White House's response to the release of the Herb [2:19:50] report? I was at the podium taking questions about it. [2:19:55] Who was, I'm sure there are multiple people involved in the formulation of the response [2:20:03] to the report of special counsel. [2:20:06] That, to my understanding, that Anita Dunn, senior advisor, handled and with Ian Sams, to my knowledge. [2:20:17] And did you assist with, you know, communication strategy regarding that? [2:20:25] No, I didn't. Besides being at the podium. [2:20:34] Besides being at the podium. Is that difficult, being at the podium and not having, [2:20:42] you know, really a say in what the communication strategy is? [2:20:45] I think, [2:20:51] that my job is to execute the strategy. That's the job of the press team and is to have [2:20:59] relationships with the press and do the best that we can to answer their questions. Everybody plays [2:21:04] a role and that's just the job of the White House press secretary. [2:21:07] Did you ever deliver any message from the podium that you believed was not entirely true or [2:21:16] accurate? No. [2:21:17] What was the message conveyed to you, to your recollection about how you would, what you would [2:21:26] do regarding her report? I mean, I don't remember the specifics. Obviously, I'm on the record in [2:21:34] the briefing room talking about it, but I don't remember the specifics. I do know that, I do [2:21:41] remember that Ian did most of the handling from the press. What my, what I, what I primarily did [2:21:48] was say that they needed to talk to the White House counsel and Ian handled most of the incoming and [2:21:54] even came into the briefing room. The White House, is it fair to say that the White House was not [2:22:06] actually thrilled about the conclusions of the her report? I mean, sorry to interrupt. Are you [2:22:15] asking about a particular person or conversation? I was just asking about the general vibe [2:22:25] surrounding the her report, but I can be more specific. Did people who did, did the people who [2:22:35] did formulate the, the response to the her report, did they take issue with, [2:22:42] with the conclusions of the her report? I don't recall anything specific. Like any conversations. [2:22:49] I, I just can't speak to anything directly that I had. Do you remember, sorry, I didn't mean to cut [2:22:55] you off. Do you remember, I think I'm quoting, but I'm paraphrasing because I'm doing it off the [2:23:04] cuff, but do you remember the conclusion that President Biden would be likely to present [2:23:12] himself to a jury as he did during our interview of him, [2:23:16] to bringѐ personally sympathetic, well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory? [2:23:19] Who I remember? Do you remember that, that conclusion [2:23:23] from the her report? yes, I do. [2:23:25] Do you remember anybody, again, from, from the, from the [2:23:30] White House communications team or really anyone in the White House at large about [2:23:36] people taking particular issue with that statement? I don't remember specific, [2:23:41] more broadly speaking, but I do, I think there was a feeling of like, they took issue to it, so to say used to doing that, but I think they've been able to do so ever so that, [2:23:42] even if there's been a бумask, then you can't discover it because the, makes showing that these questions are actually wrong. [2:23:52] but I couldn't tell you this person, that person. I don't remember having conversations, [2:23:58] but more broadly about the feeling of those words. [2:24:02] Well, maybe we'll do the exercise that we did earlier. Pretend like it's not a quote. [2:24:09] Would you agree with the statement that President Biden is a sympathetic, [2:24:14] well-meaning elderly man with a poor memory? [2:24:17] That is not how I would characterize the president. [2:24:22] And not to not to split hairs here, but I recognize that that's not the way that you would [2:24:37] characterize the president. But would you disagree with that statement [2:24:41] that he was a sympathetic, that he is a sympathetic, [2:24:45] well-meaning elderly man with a poor memory? [2:24:48] That's not what I would agree with from my experience and observations. [2:24:52] And we're going to get to the debate here shortly. [2:25:01] When we brought [2:25:03] Ron Klain in, he said that he, like you and like President Biden, said that [2:25:15] President Biden had a bad night that night. He also said that it was a uniquely bad night [2:25:25] in that he had never seen the president appear that way. [2:25:30] Have you ever seen the president appear the way that he did on the debate stage that night? [2:25:36] No. [2:25:38] And just to be clear from one of these hours that we talked about it, [2:25:43] you attribute President Biden's performance that night solely to the fact that he had a cold. [2:25:50] That is something that the president stated himself. [2:25:52] I'm going to play. Well, let me ask you this. [2:26:03] Have you ever heard the audio from the interview that Special Counsel Herr did, [2:26:12] the interview special between Special Counsel Herr and President Biden? [2:26:15] Only bits and pieces from the press. [2:26:18] Okay. We're going to play a portion of it. [2:26:20] Okay. [2:26:21] And then I'm going to ask you a question. [2:26:22] Sure. [2:26:22] If you can't hear, we can make it louder or something. [2:26:39] So at the end of your vice presidency, what kinds of papers or documents or files [2:26:47] were at the Naval Observatory as you were preparing to make your move out? [2:26:52] I found, I think, speeches. [2:28:25] Council Herr's question to President Biden was where would documents be stored at the Naval [2:29:54] Observatory? [2:29:54] Yeah. [2:29:55] Yeah. [2:29:56] I played three minutes of President Biden's response. [2:30:04] His response goes on for an additional nine minutes. [2:30:08] During that time, he speaks about the Violence Against Women Act, [2:30:13] agriculture in the Delmarva Peninsula, the International Moot Court Competition, [2:30:17] moving to Idaho, working at a law firm, the Wilmington Club, the DuPont family, [2:30:23] the Civil Rights Movement, reforming the Democratic Party in the South, [2:30:27] and his first time running for office. [2:30:29] Until Special Counsel Herr interrupts and asks the question again. [2:30:37] Do you think that's an example of maybe a bad day for President Biden, [2:30:47] how he's responding to those questions? [2:30:49] I'd just like to make clear, I obviously haven't heard the balance of... [2:30:59] Yeah. [2:30:59] I understand. [2:31:00] The interview wasn't in the room. [2:31:02] Yeah. [2:31:04] You know, this really seems a little bit afield from the type of thing that she would have [2:31:09] any firsthand knowledge of beyond, you know, sort of her own point of view. [2:31:12] Thank you. [2:31:13] Thank you. [2:31:13] Thank you. [2:31:15] Thank you. [2:31:15] And she's going to speak about a little bit more of her own personal experiences. [2:31:25] Do you think that it should take 12 minutes to answer the question? [2:31:32] Do you think, in your experience, when President Biden received a question, [2:31:42] that to me appears would require a pretty simple answer, would President Biden ever [2:31:48] provide these long-winded 12-minute answers to a simple question? [2:31:58] Okay. [2:31:58] I think so. [2:31:59] Absolutely. [2:31:59] Well, hi. [2:31:59] There's no question. [2:32:00] In. [2:32:00] I don't know what the environment was I don't know the factors I've never been [2:32:07] in that situation so I don't know what it feels like so I can't speak to it [2:32:13] with great knowledge in that particular interview and instinct what I can say [2:32:21] which is what I've been saying multiple times is it that well well that has was [2:32:28] not my experience with the president in my engagement interaction with him so [2:32:34] what you what you heard just now the president talking about the violence [2:32:39] against women that agriculture in the Delmarva Peninsula that kind of [2:32:44] interaction you never had an interaction like that me personally engaging with [2:32:48] the president I've never had a a reaction like that do you think somebody [2:32:56] who personal opinion do you think somebody who takes 12 minutes to respond [2:33:02] to us up a simple question like that [2:33:03] is fit to run the country I'm not sure that's a question that can be answered I [2:33:11] mean I'm I would like for her to provide an answer and she's here voluntarily and [2:33:14] happy to participate but I mean without knowing what the question is what the [2:33:20] context is you know it seems fairly you know convoluted to just suggest that [2:33:31] there's a particular amount of time that is too much for a question to be [2:33:35] answered so I mean I would like for her to be able to address the question but [2:33:38] that just feels like something that is not [2:33:40] answerable sure and we can we can leave it and unless you would like to answer [2:33:44] the question I'll leave it I'll talk a little bit about President Biden's run [2:33:54] for reelection and we talked a little bit about that in the context of former [2:34:00] Vice President Kamala Harris's book but just to go back a little during and [2:34:06] immediately before the 2020 election was it your impression that President Biden [2:34:12] intended to serve to seek a second term [2:34:17] I don't know what the president intentions were we were so focused on [2:34:21] the moment and winning I never even thought beyond that my my focus was and [2:34:28] all of our focus was on the upcoming election then candidate Biden had said [2:34:37] at one point that he intended to be a quote bridge to a younger generation of [2:34:41] democratic leaders was that your impression as well that he was going to [2:34:46] be a bridge president? [2:34:47] I think that's a good question. [2:34:50] I he said this and I believed him when he said it and that's those were his words do [2:34:59] you think that that implied that he intended to only serve one term I [2:35:02] wouldn't put too much into that so no you don't believe that I mean I you [2:35:09] would have to speak to him and ask him what he meant what I believed he meant [2:35:15] was the pick of his vice president making history and picking a woman vice [2:35:25] president in this case a woman of color. [2:35:27] So I actually just don't understand he's a bridge candidate by picking Kamala Harris [2:35:35] as his running mate? [2:35:37] I think it's picking someone younger and bringing like having a ticket that brings [2:35:43] everybody together a unity I think we even said that during the 2020 campaign unifying [2:35:50] and I think that's that's how I took it but you would have to ask him directly specifically [2:35:54] about what he meant by that. [2:35:59] So when did you first understand that president Biden was a bridge candidate? [2:36:00] That's a good question. [2:36:01] Biden would seek a second term? [2:36:04] When he announced it. [2:36:06] You didn't know before that? [2:36:08] It was his decision to make. [2:36:09] It's a personal decision to make. [2:36:12] So inside the White House, were there any discussions or considerations of whether President [2:36:18] Biden was physically or mentally fit to seek or serve a second term? [2:36:24] No, not that I was part of, not that I was aware of, and not that I was part of. [2:36:37] And to circle back to the 2020 election, because we're going to talk a little bit about debate [2:36:43] prep for 2024. [2:36:44] So for 2020, I think you had said that you had some role in preparing Joe Biden for his [2:36:50] debates in 2020. [2:36:51] Is that right? [2:36:52] Yeah. [2:36:53] I was part of the debate prep. [2:36:54] Okay. [2:36:55] And were you part of the debate prep team for 2024 as well? [2:37:00] No, I was not. [2:37:03] What did debate prep look like for the 2020 debate? [2:37:06] Again, I was just saying, yeah, it was an awkward time. [2:37:10] So it was all virtual. [2:37:12] There was some moments where there were people. [2:37:14] There at the location with him, and then there were folks who were virtual. [2:37:20] At the time, I had a dual role. [2:37:22] So I was virtual for the debate prep. [2:37:27] So I mean, it was, again, it was a virtual process because of COVID and because what [2:37:33] we were dealing with with the protocols. [2:37:36] And how would you say then candidate Biden performed in debate prep during the 2020 race? [2:37:44] At the time? [2:37:45] At the time, it was the beginning of debate prep. [2:37:48] So it was more taking information, reading the documents. [2:37:52] That's the part of debate prep that I was involved in, in 2020 to be specific. [2:37:56] So you weren't involved in any mock debates? [2:37:58] No, because again, I had dual roles. [2:38:00] So I was not. [2:38:03] What sort of documents were you preparing for that? [2:38:06] Policy, just kind of domestic policy for the things that any other candidate would do just [2:38:11] to kind of talk through, walk through. [2:38:13] That was prepared. [2:38:14] That was it. [2:38:15] That's what the part that I was involved in. [2:38:20] Did you watch the 2020 presidential debate? [2:38:24] I'm sure I did. [2:38:26] How would you characterize then candidate Biden's performance in that debate? [2:38:30] I believe it was strong. [2:38:39] So you were not at Camp David during the debate prep for the 2024 election? [2:38:43] No, not in my, in my role as White House press secretary, I was not involved in campaigns [2:38:48] or any political strategy that related to his re-elect. [2:38:52] Did you have any conversations about? [2:38:54] Debate prep with any of the people who were there or were involved with it? [2:38:58] If it was, it was informal. [2:38:59] It was like, how's it going? [2:39:00] Very, very informal. [2:39:01] No memo, no specifics, no readout. [2:39:02] It's my understanding that there were certain White House staff present, correct? [2:39:05] Yes. [2:39:06] Yes. [2:39:07] So I guess to kind of re-ask the question, why weren't you there specifically? [2:39:23] From what I understood from White House counsel, I had a role that. [2:39:28] It was better not to politicize it, not to be involved in any political decision. [2:39:34] It was better just to keep me, you know, in my White House government role and not be [2:39:41] involved in that way, in any decision-making strategy or part of the campaign. [2:39:45] And not to ask you an awkward question, but you're not unaware of anybody recommending [2:39:50] that you don't, besides White House counsel providing advice, but nobody in senior staff [2:39:56] recommending that you not appear? [2:39:58] No, it was a White House counsel decision because I was so public. [2:40:06] And if you watched the briefing, you probably would understand why. [2:40:09] I watched a lot of them. [2:40:13] So in your, hey, how's it going conversations, informal conversations, I think you said with [2:40:18] people who were involved, what did they say about how it was going? [2:40:22] It was just one person, the communications director, because he was there and we're friends [2:40:29] and he'd be like, it's going great. [2:40:30] It would be one answer. [2:40:31] It wouldn't be. [2:40:32] It wouldn't be a full-throated explanation. [2:40:37] So in that conversation or conversations, there was no indication that debate prep was [2:40:43] going poorly? [2:40:44] I never got that indication. [2:40:46] Even before debate prep, did you ever hear anybody express any concern about how President [2:40:53] Biden would do in a debate against in 2024? [2:40:56] No, no. [2:41:02] The debate happened relatively early in the election cycle. [2:41:05] Yeah. [2:41:06] It was a political cycle compared to other debates. [2:41:07] Do you know why that was? [2:41:08] That was a political strategy that I was not involved in. [2:41:09] Following that, are you any one finding that it should be an early debate to push back [2:41:10] against any of the narrative or concerns about President Biden's age or ability to do the [2:41:11] job? [2:41:12] That wouldn't be a conversation that I would be part of because it's part of the campaign [2:41:18] and the strategy. [2:41:23] So I was not part of that conversation. [2:41:25] Recognizing that you weren't part of the conversation, but did you hear that? [2:41:27] I was. [2:41:28] I was. [2:41:29] I was. [2:41:30] I was. [2:41:31] I was. [2:41:32] I was. [2:41:33] I was. [2:41:34] I was. [2:41:35] I was. [2:41:38] I was. [2:41:39] I was. [2:41:40] I was. [2:41:41] I was. [2:41:42] I was. [2:41:43] I was. [2:41:44] I was. [2:41:45] I was. [2:41:46] I was. [2:41:47] Right. [2:41:48] Recognizing that you weren't part of the conversation, but did you hear that? [2:41:50] Oh, did I hear it? [2:41:53] Not that I was privy to, not in a conversation that I was involved in. [2:41:58] But any other way that you might've heard that? [2:42:09] Not in a conversation that I was involved with. [2:42:13] I would certainly make that assumption, but I was not part of a conversation to make that [2:42:17] decision. [2:42:24] To understand that you were not involved with debate prep in any way for the 2024 race, [2:42:30] Were you there on debate night? [2:42:33] Yes. [2:42:34] I think, if I'm recalling correctly, I think there were a couple of different holding [2:42:39] rooms or rooms where different staff or campaign staff were watching from. [2:42:45] Do you recall who you were sitting with when you watched it? [2:42:49] Correct. [2:42:50] I was in a holding room with a mix of White House staff and campaign staff watching the [2:42:54] debate. [2:42:56] Do you recall if Ron Klain was in the room with you? [2:42:59] He was in the room with me. [2:43:04] I believe Mr. Klain said at some point during the debate, I believe after the line about [2:43:12] beating Medicare, said something along the lines of, we're effed. [2:43:17] Do you recall that? [2:43:18] I don't remember specifics, but I know people were reacting to what we were all watching [2:43:24] in the room. [2:43:25] But I can't say specifically that's what Ron Klain said. [2:43:28] If that's what he said, I'll take his word for it. [2:43:31] So in the general reaction to the debate in that holding room, was it different? [2:43:38] Was it clear then that it was a bad night? [2:43:43] I think for many of us, including the president who said it was a bad night, it was a bad [2:43:50] night. [2:43:54] But I want to make clear, it was a bad night for not health concerns, but political strategy [2:44:01] concerns. [2:44:02] That's what was going on in the room. [2:44:05] So what was bad about President Biden's performance? [2:44:09] Look, I'm not going to... [2:44:12] I think we all watched it. [2:44:13] I'm not going to go into specifics. [2:44:14] Okay. [2:44:16] I'm not going to go into specifics, but we all watched what was happening. [2:44:20] And he said it was a bad night. [2:44:22] We all watched it. [2:44:24] We all agree it was a bad night. [2:44:26] It did not go the way that we wanted to. [2:44:28] I understand that. [2:44:29] Frankly, I'm interested in your perspective. [2:44:30] You have a lot of expertise and you've worked in politics a very long time, and you don't [2:44:38] have a specific aspect of it that was poor. [2:44:42] I agree with the way the president characterized it, which was it was a bad night. [2:44:45] Were you part of the spin team that goes after the president? [2:44:48] Yeah. [2:44:49] Yeah. [2:44:50] Were you part of the spin team that goes out on the floor after these debates and characterizes [2:44:56] the candidate one way or the other? [2:44:58] I would not be because that would be a political strategy and part of the campaign world. [2:45:03] So I would not be part of that. [2:45:04] And just to go back to what you said, you attributed a lot of President Biden's appearance [2:45:11] to a cold. [2:45:14] Is that correct? [2:45:16] Yes. [2:45:17] That's what I've attributed it. [2:45:18] I've said that on the record many times. [2:45:23] Yeah. [2:45:24] When did you learn that President Biden had a cold? [2:45:26] When I was in the room. [2:45:28] So while he was on stage, somebody informed you that he had a cold? [2:45:32] Look, I had not seen him that day. [2:45:34] Others in the room had and had conversations with him. [2:45:38] I was on the plane with him, but did not speak with him directly before the debate. [2:45:44] And so folks who had talked to him said that he had a cold. [2:45:51] And that was while he was debating. [2:45:55] Somebody informed you? [2:45:57] I was informed that he had a cold. [2:46:00] And one of the reasons I was informed that is because press was asking, there was inquiries [2:46:05] from press asking if he was sick. [2:46:07] You remember who told you that? [2:46:09] I don't. [2:46:10] There was a lot going on in that room, as you can imagine, during a debate. [2:46:15] So to be clear, he had already started debating when you found that out? [2:46:18] Yes, because we heard him speaking and his voice and it was hoarse. [2:46:22] And so that was what I was, that's what was shared with me. [2:46:27] In a recently released interview, the president's son, Hunter Biden, told Andrew Callahan that, [2:46:34] quote, they gave him Ambien to be able to sleep and he gets up on stage and looks like [2:46:39] a deer in the headlights. [2:46:40] Do you have any knowledge of President Biden taking Ambien ever? [2:46:43] No. [2:46:44] Do you have knowledge of anyone on the president's team providing medication to the president? [2:46:57] No. [2:46:58] And this is my question. [2:47:06] Do you have any knowledge of anyone in the White House providing the president Ambien? [2:47:09] No. [2:47:10] And this is my question. [2:47:11] Do you have any knowledge of anyone on the president's team providing the president medication [2:47:12] other than Dr. O'Connor? [2:47:18] No. [2:47:19] Did you discuss the president's performance after the debate with him directly? [2:47:24] I had a brief conversation on the incoming that I was having, that I was getting from [2:47:29] the press about the debate because he asked. [2:47:33] And what did you talk about? [2:47:36] I can't remember the specifics, but I shared with him the incoming that I was receiving, [2:47:41] that we were all receiving. [2:47:43] Did he express any regrets about what he had said or how he had performed other than saying, [2:47:49] of course, that it was a bad night? [2:47:51] Did he get any more specific than that? [2:47:52] He did not get more specific than that. [2:47:54] Did you have any conversations with other senior staff at the White House about President [2:48:02] Biden's performance? [2:48:03] I mean, likely, yes, we talked about it. [2:48:08] So conversations that involved discussions of why he performed like that? [2:48:20] We talked about the debate, the incoming that we were getting, and how to respond to reporters. [2:48:29] How are you directed to respond to reporters? [2:48:33] We shared basically what I shared before, that he had a cold. [2:48:39] They also asked me if he was tested for COVID. [2:48:42] We said yes, but he did not have COVID. [2:48:44] Those were the things that we shared, and it was a bad night. [2:48:47] Were there any additional talking points that were suggested or you put in the book that [2:48:53] weren't put out? [2:48:56] Just for some clarity, it wasn't talking points. [2:49:02] It wasn't in the book. [2:49:03] We were traveling. [2:49:04] We were on the road. [2:49:05] It was just trying to get in real time answers to questions that reporters were asking. [2:49:12] But did anybody suggest a different narrative other than that he had had a cold for why [2:49:17] he performed like that? [2:49:18] No. [2:49:24] Did anyone ever advocate for the president to be more public facing after the debate, [2:49:30] to do more press conferences or anything of that sort to you? [2:49:34] So I will say this. [2:49:37] As it relates to public facing and his schedule. [2:49:41] We went from, if I remember, which was always the plan, we went from Atlanta to North Carolina [2:49:50] to New York to New Jersey. [2:49:53] We had a full two, three days of a four-state swing. [2:50:00] That's if I'm remembering the numbers of states and the amount of days. [2:50:06] But we had a pretty full, robust schedule coming out of the debate. [2:50:11] And I will just add, would the president engage with supporters, took pictures, talked [2:50:22] to them, spoke in front of them, and he was out there for the American people to see him [2:50:30] directly after the debate for two days and four states, I believe. [2:50:36] But are you aware of any members of senior staff recommending or advising that he do [2:50:42] more than that, to be more public facing than he was being? [2:50:46] I mean, there was always conversation about him. [2:50:48] Continuous. [2:50:49] Continuing to be public facing. [2:50:51] There was always conversation about him being out there, especially for the campaign, right? [2:50:57] It was a campaign. [2:50:59] So those conversations were always happening. [2:51:02] Where can we send him? [2:51:03] Where does he need to go? [2:51:04] Obviously, a lot of that was strategic and from the campaign side because we were a few [2:51:09] months out from the election. [2:51:12] But do you recall anybody specific recommending that in the wake of the debate? [2:51:15] I don't remember anybody specific, but it was a conversation that was consistently happening. [2:51:20] We had to continue for him to be out there. [2:51:23] At this point, immediately after the debate, did you believe that President Biden should [2:51:31] stay in the race? [2:51:34] Look, what I believe is when it comes to something like this, to run for reelection, run for election, [2:51:41] make these types of decisions, it is something that is very personal. [2:51:46] And I supported, my job is to support the president in whatever decision that he wants [2:51:52] to make. [2:51:53] My understanding was at that time. [2:51:55] That we were, he was still in it and he was still going to continue to run for reelection. [2:52:01] I did not think anything else out of that. [2:52:03] I did not have an opinion. [2:52:05] My only thing was, let me support the White House, this president, the best way that I [2:52:10] could. [2:52:11] And I do understand that was your job. [2:52:14] And thank you for that. [2:52:15] But you're also a citizen of this country. [2:52:17] Did you think that President Biden was the best candidate at that point to be the Democratic [2:52:21] nominee for president? [2:52:22] Well, that's a different question. [2:52:24] You just asked me. [2:52:25] Yes. [2:52:26] But the answer is yes. [2:52:28] The answer is yes. [2:52:29] That's why, yeah. [2:52:30] A lot of questions fly around. [2:52:31] No, I know. [2:52:32] You just asked me a completely different question and the answer to that question is yes. [2:52:36] And maybe I'll save us some time. [2:52:40] Did you believe that up until the day that President Biden dropped out of the race? [2:52:47] Did I? [2:52:48] Did you believe that President Biden should be the Democratic candidate for president [2:52:52] up until the day that he dropped out of the race? [2:52:54] Yes. [2:52:55] Again, personal decision, something for him to make. [2:52:57] But yes. [2:53:05] You can support somebody's personal decision and not tell them that you disagree with it. [2:53:11] Privately disagreeing with it is different. [2:53:13] So did you have personal opinions that you didn't share that President Biden should step [2:53:18] aside earlier than he did? [2:53:19] Well, your colleague just asked me that I think that the president, and I'm paraphrasing [2:53:25] here, was the right person for that moment to be running the, to be nominee for the Democratic [2:53:33] party. [2:53:34] Yes. [2:53:35] So I think, I think that answers what I believe, that I believe that he was the right person [2:53:40] in that moment to run for president. [2:53:43] I think that answers that question. [2:53:47] Did anybody that you're aware of on the campaign or in the White House have a different view [2:53:53] than you? [2:53:54] Did anybody start having reservations about whether President Biden should stay in the [2:53:58] race? [2:53:59] Not directly. [2:54:00] I never had a conversation with anybody about that. [2:54:01] Did you hear, did you hear, did you hear of conversations that you weren't part of where [2:54:07] that was raised? [2:54:08] No. [2:54:09] And I, when it came to the campaign, I just wasn't engaged with people on a regular basis. [2:54:16] So I couldn't even tell you what was going on on the campaign and people's feelings. [2:54:23] At one point on a, I believe it was on Morning Joe, President Biden implied that, or said [2:54:30] directly that it was the elites in the Democratic party that were pressuring him to step aside. [2:54:37] Do you think that's true? [2:54:41] Look, I think there were a lot of factors. [2:54:43] That, um, that led to the president to decide not to run. [2:54:48] He wrote about it. [2:54:49] His statement is, there's a statement that he put out and I would just let him speak [2:54:53] to it. [2:54:54] I mean, he, it is, he was very clear when he made that decision, um, why he wanted to [2:55:01] and he did an Oval Office address laying out his thought process. [2:55:05] So do you believe that the pressure for President Biden to drop out was from the Democratic [2:55:16] party elites? [2:55:17] I think there were a lot of factors. [2:55:19] That played into his decision. [2:55:21] Is that one of them? [2:55:23] I believe there were a lot of factors that played into his decision and he laid it out [2:55:27] his thought process and it was, you know, he put out a statement about it and again, [2:55:33] did an Oval Office address. [2:55:38] Do you think, um, pundits, there were, there were politicians on the Hill would eventually [2:55:53] come out and, um, be in favor of Joe Biden dropping out of the race? [2:55:58] A lot of that, most of that occurred in the wake of President Biden's debate performance. [2:56:04] Sitting here today. [2:56:07] We're over it. [2:56:08] A year past, um, Joe Biden dropping out of the race, the Heinz with the benefit of hindsight. [2:56:15] Do you just think that all of that was an overreaction to Joe Biden's performance during [2:56:24] one debate? [2:56:26] Yeah, that strikes me as more of like a political science question than a mental acuity question. [2:56:31] I mean, is there a question about sort of his performance and, and I'll be, I'll be [2:56:38] honest. [2:56:39] Other witnesses, I've asked the same question to other witnesses and they actually didn't [2:56:42] have a problem answering that question. [2:56:43] The question being, do you think that this was an overreaction on the part of the democratic [2:56:49] party to push jump Joe Biden out of the race? [2:56:53] Again, I, I don't have a problem with an answer. [2:56:56] I'm just pointing out that it seems far afield from what brings us here today. [2:57:01] Well, um, I'm happy to respond to that. [2:57:05] Um, the investigation is about Joe Biden's decision-making and one of the biggest decisions [2:57:12] that Joe Biden made during his presidency was dropping out of the race. [2:57:16] And I'm interested to know what was behind that decision. [2:57:22] Understood. [2:57:24] And I think if, if Ms. Jean-Pierre has personal knowledge from the time or anything that's [2:57:31] relevant, she should obviously answer the question. [2:57:33] I just wanted to make sure, um, that it's something she's able to speak to and not just [2:57:39] opining on sort of the politics of the day. [2:57:42] I'll tell you what, you don't even have to answer the question. [2:57:45] The question being, do you think it was an overreaction on the part of the democratic [2:57:48] party? [2:57:48] And punditry, um, to pressure Joe Biden to drop out of the race, would you like to respond [2:57:58] to that? [2:57:59] So something that you just said that I think is also important that you said that you were [2:58:04] trying to figure out what was behind the decision of president Biden, uh, uh, making a very [2:58:12] difficult, uh, very personal decision. [2:58:16] I do not know, right. [2:58:18] I know from what he wrote. [2:58:20] And put out in the statement, um, I was not part of his thought when I, what I don't know [2:58:25] is I wasn't part of his thought process. [2:58:27] I was in the room when he was making this decision. [2:58:30] I wasn't in a room when he was talking to his family, I was not in the room. [2:58:34] I learned maybe 20 minutes before everybody else in the world learned that he had made [2:58:40] this decision. [2:58:41] It is an incredibly personal decision. [2:58:43] Uh, it was for him to make alone. [2:58:47] Was I surprised? [2:58:48] Yes. [2:58:49] Because I thought we were going to continue, um, continue the re-election and move forward. [2:58:57] That's the best way that I can answer that question. [2:59:01] Thank you. [2:59:02] And I told you we'd return to it. [2:59:05] So I want to return to it. [2:59:06] Um, there is, um, your book, which we have not read, We Awaited, Baited Breath. [2:59:15] Um, the description is, uh, a word that is used to describe something that you talk about [2:59:22] is betrayal. [2:59:23] So I want to talk about, I want to talk about that. [2:59:25] Um. [2:59:27] What I was talking about is stepping out from, um, the Democratic Party, from a two-party [2:59:39] system that I felt, um, we needed to, to really take a hard look at and see what works and [2:59:48] what doesn't work. [2:59:49] Um, it was a feeling of, uh, and there were many factors that played into this of, I want [2:59:58] to do this in a space where I can be, look at it in an independent light. [3:00:01] Um. [3:00:03] So, um. [3:00:04] Yeah. [3:00:05] Um. [3:00:06] And that is what I was talking about. [3:00:08] Stepping away from the two-party system, stepping away, uh, from a party that I had been part [3:00:13] of for a long time. [3:00:15] Still believe in the ideology, uh, still, uh, believe in what the Biden-Harris administration [3:00:20] did, but I wanted to step away from it. [3:00:24] It being the two-party system. [3:00:26] The two-party system. [3:00:27] That I spent a lot of time on. [3:00:28] It being the two-party system as, as, as a whole, as a whole. [3:00:33] Okay. [3:00:34] I, this is my least favorite part of the job, but I don't think you answered the question. [3:00:38] Um. [3:00:39] I wanted to step away from a two-party system that I didn't feel like was working. [3:00:46] Do you believe that the Democratic party betrayed you? [3:00:51] I believe that that is something that certainly the president will speak to. [3:00:55] Um, I do have my thoughts, uh, about that, but I think at the end of the day, I am still [3:01:03] very much part of what the Democrats stand for. [3:01:07] I want to do it in my own way and from the outside, and I feel like I can have a better [3:01:12] effect in doing that. [3:01:13] Okay. [3:01:14] Um, do you believe that the Democratic party betrayed Joe Biden? [3:01:19] I think, uh, many historians will, will write that tale. [3:01:28] Do you believe Joe Biden betrayed you? [3:01:32] No. [3:01:35] Remember, I stayed till the end. [3:01:36] You know, I, I actually have, um, I'm not looking for spoilers on your book. [3:01:52] Um. [3:01:53] You're trying. [3:01:54] Um. [3:01:55] But, um, you know, I, I, I do want to be clear that, um, is it your testimony today that [3:02:07] your book will not make reference? [3:02:09] Will not make reference to President Biden's health, his cognitive ability, or any inability [3:02:16] to do the job of the presidency? [3:02:20] What I will say is your, the questions that you're, you're asking me today, I'm, I'm answering [3:02:25] them accurately and completely, uh, and I am not deviating from what I have said at [3:02:33] the podium on the record. [3:02:40] Will your book make any reference to President Biden's, his cognitive, cognitive ability, [3:02:46] or inability to do the job of the presidency? [3:02:47] And again, I've talked about this. [3:02:55] I've been very clear that from my perspective, from what I saw, the president was always [3:03:02] able to do the job. [3:03:03] Um, I talk about the three weeks. [3:03:06] I talk about it from my perspective and I talk about things that happened from the podium [3:03:13] and nothing that I'm telling you right now deviates from what I said in public. [3:03:18] Do you talk about it in the book? [3:03:19] And do you talk about it in the book? [3:03:20] Anything that involves the president's health, his cognitive ability, or his inability to [3:03:27] do the job? [3:03:28] Well, I would say that I never thought that he was enabled to do, didn't, was not able [3:03:35] to do the job. [3:03:36] So that's not how I would characterize how the president, uh, performed as president [3:03:43] of the United States. [3:03:44] He was always capable of doing the job. [3:03:46] And again, I do talk about the three weeks of that period between the debate. [3:03:53] I mean, it's. [3:03:54] Pretty much says that, um, to when he decided from my point of view, from what I point of [3:04:02] view, I'm, I'm speaking from like what I has said at the podium. [3:04:09] What does your book say about the president's health? [3:04:13] I think I'm just going to interject. [3:04:14] I think she's repeatedly telling you, she's just characterizing it differently, but she's [3:04:19] saying she's consistent with what she said in the podium, with what she's saying here [3:04:23] and what's in her book. [3:04:26] I understand. [3:04:27] Um, uh, the last thing I want to do is read a book, read the book and see something that [3:04:34] is, if not inconsistent, but is being left out from this interview and have questions. [3:04:40] And then we all have to come back here and me asking more questions. [3:04:44] Um, so, um, I would, I would really just like a straight response. [3:04:49] It is our expectation that that will not happen. [3:04:52] Right. [3:04:53] And I would love for that to be my expectation as well, but it's, it's currently not. [3:04:57] Um, so. [3:04:58] So the, the way you're phrasing the question, she's, she's saying that those same themes [3:05:02] about the three weeks where she's getting incoming from press, all the things that we've [3:05:06] just been talked about are also discussed in her book consistently. [3:05:10] Inconsistent with the discussion today. [3:05:12] I think that's the message. [3:05:18] My question is what is the book going to say about this? [3:05:22] Everything that I'm answering today to all of you, I said that there will be no discrepancies. [3:05:35] Ultimately. [3:05:36] Yeah. [3:05:37] And I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I [3:05:43] think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's [3:05:46] the right decision to make. [3:05:47] I, it was his decision to make. [3:05:48] Um, now if you're asking me, um, if I was disappointed, if I was surprised, yes, because [3:05:57] I thought we were going to continue again. [3:06:00] And the reason why, because he made that decision, that personal decision for himself. [3:06:05] Um, we're going to switch gears a little here, um, to this. [3:06:18] Okay. [3:06:21] So the press asked you on numerous occasions, whether president Biden plans of pardon his [3:06:26] son Hunter. [3:06:27] Um, and you repeatedly and adamantly said that he would not, um, is that right? [3:06:34] Yes, because that's what I knew the answer to be at the time. [3:06:38] Um, and of course he eventually did pardon his son Hunter Biden. [3:06:44] Is that correct? [3:06:45] Correct. [3:06:46] When did you learn that he intended to pardon Hunter? [3:06:49] Uh, it was a short timeline when I, when I learned. [3:06:52] Okay. [3:06:53] It was a short time that, uh, from the time I learned to the time that we shared it with [3:06:58] the press, a very short timeline. [3:07:06] Meaning like the same day or? [3:07:08] I honestly don't have a, uh, actual amount of time, but it was a short timeline. [3:07:15] Like maybe I found out the night before and we announced it the day before. [3:07:20] It was very, very short period of time. [3:07:23] And the basis of your understanding before he ultimately did decide to do it, the basis [3:07:29] of your understanding that he would not pardon Hunter Biden. [3:07:32] Was that a conversation you had with him directly? [3:07:36] No, I did not have a conversation with him about it. [3:07:39] And would that be who, who would that be that you would talk to you about that? [3:07:43] I mean, he, again, we put out a statement, uh, that he was very involved in, in his thought [3:07:49] process about his decision to pardon his son. [3:07:53] And that's what I understood it to be. [3:07:56] That's what he wanted to make sure that the American people had, uh, I was not part of [3:08:01] any conversation on that. [3:08:02] Okay. [3:08:03] Sorry if my question was confusing, but before when your answer at the podium was that he [3:08:08] would not pardon his son, um, you were saying that because you had spoken to him and he [3:08:13] said he wouldn't. [3:08:14] Oh, I understand. [3:08:15] I thought you meant when he actually made the decision, um, yes, it's something that [3:08:20] he had said multiple times. [3:08:22] He said it in public on the record is what I knew, uh, knew to be true at the time. [3:08:28] Uh, and that's what I, that's what I repeated. [3:08:32] That's something that he was very clear about during that period of time when I said he [3:08:37] would not. [3:08:38] Um, when president Biden would be given talking point cards for a specific issue, is that [3:08:47] something you'd be involved in generally? [3:08:50] If it relates to the press or inquiry that was coming from the press? [3:08:55] Yes. [3:08:56] Um, I can introduce it if it's, if it's easier, but at first I can just represent it to you. [3:09:02] Um, there was a tweet by Alex Thompson from September 8th to just a few days ago. [3:09:06] Okay. [3:09:07] Um, that like a year ago, September, I'm sorry, just a few days ago currently, um, that included [3:09:15] a, uh, a document, which was a talking points card dated December 1st, 2024. [3:09:23] Um, one of the talking points is a bolded header that says, when did you in all caps [3:09:31] this decide to do this with regard to, um, why did you change your mind to pardon Hunter? [3:09:39] Um, and then under the, when did you decide to do this header, it says made the decision [3:09:45] this weekend. [3:09:46] Um, is, is that a, is that a normal talking point for a card like that? [3:09:52] Can we take a look at if you've got, sorry. [3:09:55] Thank you. [3:10:12] Yeah. [3:10:13] I'll introduce this exhibit to the tweet that I was mentioning earlier from Alex Thompson. [3:10:17] Um, and as you can see, it's dated December 1st, 2024. [3:10:21] Firstly, have you, have you seen this before? [3:10:25] So it would not be unusual for me to have. [3:10:28] Uh, put together or be part of with the coms team and putting, um, notes like this is not [3:10:34] unusual for any president to be quite honest, uh, to have, um, cards or, or notes, um, uh, [3:10:43] from the press of coms team. [3:10:44] I don't remember this particular specific one, uh, but you know, it wouldn't be, I would [3:10:50] normally be involved in this. [3:10:54] Um, and of course this is a talking points sheet notes, uh, with regard to. [3:11:00] The president's, um, the president changing his mind about pardoning his son. [3:11:06] Um, and it, it, it strikes me as odd that he would require a talking point for when [3:11:13] he made the decision when it was only the, apparently the previous weekend, um, is, is [3:11:20] that unusual? [3:11:21] It's, it's not unusual. [3:11:22] So just to give you a little bit of, of, of the process here is that my job is the press, [3:11:29] uh, white house press secretary. [3:11:30] Yeah. [3:11:31] And my, my communications, uh, director job is to make sure whatever questions that we [3:11:35] think, cause he engaged, he engages with the press pretty regularly. [3:11:38] I think I said he engaged with, uh, uh, the press unofficially over 700 and 670 times, [3:11:47] right? [3:11:48] So this was a regular occurrence. [3:11:49] So he saw the press all the time and members of the press travel with the president pretty [3:11:54] regularly. [3:11:55] So we would put together, like I've said before, um, daily news summary, daily notes. [3:12:01] And we're talking about one card, but there were probably other cards here on whatever [3:12:06] issue topics of the day. [3:12:09] And it was, I would look at it just like a memo that he would be getting just to let [3:12:13] him know, Hey, this is what's up. [3:12:14] This is what's going on. [3:12:16] Um, and this is probably what you're going to hear. [3:12:19] So it was not unusual. [3:12:20] It's not uncommon for presidents or principals or candidates to have these types of notes, [3:12:26] uh, that's, they're going to be getting from the press. [3:12:30] That all makes sense. [3:12:32] I guess it, to me still strikes me as odd that, you know, it just seems like a pretty [3:12:39] big decision. [3:12:40] He's going back on something that he said he wouldn't do and now he's doing it and it's [3:12:45] with regard to his son and he made the decision only in the previous days. [3:12:51] Is it not odd to you that he would need to be reminded that it was just, it's not odd [3:12:55] because we did this consistently, made sure that he had what was on the minds of the press. [3:13:02] It's something that we did daily and this would be it. [3:13:05] This in this moment dated, right? [3:13:08] This would be something that the press was focused on. [3:13:11] So it's not unusual. [3:13:13] Candidates do this. [3:13:14] Other principals do this. [3:13:17] It's not unusual. [3:13:27] Were you surprised that president Biden changed his mind about pardoning his son? [3:13:33] Um, yeah, I was, I was surprised. [3:13:40] Why? [3:13:42] Because we had said that he wouldn't, but again, his decision to make very personal [3:13:48] decision and he laid out in a statement why he made that decision. [3:13:55] And I know we got a little, my question got confusing the last time, but for the record [3:13:59] to be clear, did, did you have a conversation directly with president Biden about his reversal [3:14:05] about when he eventually decided to pardon his son? [3:14:07] If you're asking me if I had a conversation about his thought process, the decision-making, [3:14:14] no. [3:14:15] And did you just discuss that with anybody else? [3:14:17] No. [3:14:20] So are you, are you directly aware of when he made the decision to pardon his son? [3:14:25] I mean, he shares it in his statement. [3:14:26] But is the question outside of that? [3:14:30] Is she aware of anything outside of what he has said or what's in the statement? [3:14:35] Yeah. [3:14:36] Do you have direct, any direct knowledge of the process by which president Biden came [3:14:41] to make that decision besides his public statement? [3:14:44] No. [3:14:45] Besides his public statement. [3:14:46] No. [3:14:47] Did you ever hear any conversation, any rumor that president Biden was considering pardoning [3:14:53] his son when, while, while you were going to the podium and saying he would in fact [3:14:58] not do that? [3:14:59] Are you asking me from like internally? [3:15:00] Yeah. [3:15:02] Yes, ma'am. [3:15:03] No. [3:15:04] Like internally from the White House? [3:15:05] Yes, ma'am. [3:15:06] No. [3:15:11] Why do you believe he changed his mind? [3:15:12] I mean, I would just refer back to the statement that he put out about it, personal decision [3:15:21] that he made, difficult decision for him to make, but he made it. [3:15:27] Did you ever speak with anybody from Hunter Biden's legal team? [3:15:32] No. [3:15:33] Did you ever speak with Hunter Biden? [3:15:36] If you're asking me if I've ever spoke to Hunter Biden about his legal or pardons or [3:15:41] anything like that. [3:15:42] I'll get there. [3:15:43] But let's start generally. [3:15:44] I mean, I would see him from time to time with his family, but we did not talk about [3:15:53] this. [3:15:54] You never talked with Hunter Biden about any of his legal issues? [3:15:57] No. [3:15:58] You never spoke with Hunter Biden about any congressional inquiry into Hunter Biden? [3:16:02] No. [3:16:05] Who, going back to the binder, who inserted, who would insert information into the binder [3:16:13] about pardons, if you know? [3:16:14] No. [3:16:15] No, I didn't. [3:16:18] Are you asking me who would help formulate the questions? [3:16:23] Or the response? [3:16:24] Or the response, yes ma'am. [3:16:27] I believe that came from the comms team primarily. [3:16:30] Do you know if anyone had pardons as their portfolio? [3:16:40] Not specifically. [3:16:41] No. [3:16:42] Not that I remember. [3:16:43] No. [3:16:44] Do you know if Anita Dunn was involved? [3:16:45] She was not there by that point. [3:16:48] We're talking about December of 2015. [3:16:49] of 2024. So that was, this was all towards the, or even January, actually. This was the end of [3:16:56] the administration. That's right. So you couldn't pinpoint a particular person or a couple people [3:17:01] who were writing about, who were inserting information into the Binders about pardons? [3:17:05] Well, I would say it was the communications team, right? The communications director was involved. [3:17:11] That's where I would say that it came from. Did you ever speak with President Biden about pardons? [3:17:17] I mean, we were, again, like the, this was like the last couple of days of the administration, [3:17:22] so I never had a specific conversation with him about it, no. And just so I'm clear, [3:17:32] we're talking about the pardon of Hunter Biden. Oh, oh. Did you have any, I'll rephrase the [3:17:40] question. Did you ever have any conversation with President Biden about the pardon of Hunter Biden? [3:17:43] No, like before he. Before or after? No, I did not. Did you ever have a conversation [3:17:50] with President Biden about the pardon, the later? [3:17:54] That's what I was speaking to prior, which is, it was towards the, I think it was like the last day [3:18:02] of the administration, so there was no time to talk about that. The only time I talked to the [3:18:08] president about the pardon is in, as I explained, when I tell him what's on the mind of the press, [3:18:14] what I'm getting in the press briefing room, and I would bring it up in that way, but we never had [3:18:18] a direct conversation about it. And I just want to clarify on that to make sure there's no confusion. [3:18:24] Are you talking about? [3:18:25] The theoretical question of would the president pardon Hunter Biden, or after he had made the decision? [3:18:33] I've never talked to him about him pardoning his son, Hunter. Like never, we never had a conversation. [3:18:41] What I was trying to say is, if it was on the mind of the press, I would say, this is what the press [3:18:46] is asking me, but we never had a conversation about it, about his decision or anything like that. [3:18:54] So that, what you would deliver to the press, [3:18:58] was from the briefing book, regarding, when you would tell the press that the president does not [3:19:05] intend to pardon his son, Hunter, that you were getting that information purely from the briefing [3:19:11] book? [3:19:13] No, no, I think I made that clear, that the president said it himself, right? This is, [3:19:19] this is, when I said it at the podium, the president had also said it, whether at a gaggle, [3:19:25] or in the interview, a sit-down interview, which he did 151 of sit-down interviews. Um, [3:19:31] he would, uh, if he were asked during that time, he would answer it and say no. So, it came from the [3:19:39] president of the United States. [3:19:44] Were you at all aggrieved when the president did the exact opposite of what you had been saying from the podium? [3:19:51] Was I aggrieved? No. [3:19:52] We'll stop right there. [3:19:59] Oh, uh, Ms. Jean-Pierre, in the last hour, um, my majority colleagues talked to you about her report, [3:20:14] with the president's response to an answer, a response to a question, excuse me, um, and they [3:20:20] that a long-winded answer was, uh, some indication of mental, a cognitive decline, or the president's [3:20:26] inability to do the job. Um, would you say in your experience that, uh, President Biden is known for [3:20:32] being long-winded? [3:20:34] Yes, he is known for being long-winded. [3:20:36] So, was that abnormal for him to go give lengthy answers to questions that most people would take [3:20:41] a shorter amount of time? [3:20:43] True. [3:20:43] Yes. [3:20:44] Okay, so, um, so it's fair to say that because Joe Biden gave a long-winded answer to, um, uh, [3:20:50] the question by, [3:20:51] uh, special counsel Hurd, does not, is that an indication, um, that he is, he was unable to do his job? [3:20:58] Correct. [3:21:00] Ms. Jean-Pierre, thank you again for appearing today. [3:21:02] Thank you for having me. [3:21:04] I just want to clarify for the record, and I know this has been discussed a few times, [3:21:07] you're here voluntarily, right? [3:21:08] Yes, I am. [3:21:09] And you have been asked a variety of questions by my, about different events spanning numerous [3:21:17] years. I just want to be very clear that you are answering these questions to the best of your [3:21:21] recollection, is that right? [3:21:22] Yes, I am. [3:21:23] And I also want to [3:21:29] know, during your time at the White House, was there a grand conspiracy to cover up the [3:21:34] mental decline of President Biden? [3:21:37] No. [3:21:37] Actually, I, I had a few follow-up questions, um, about pardons. Um, were you in meetings [3:21:56] or, um, have discussions about the pardon of Dr. Fauci? [3:22:02] No, I was not. [3:22:03] Were you in meetings or did you participate in any discussions regarding the pardon of [3:22:08] General Milley? [3:22:09] No, I was not. [3:22:10] Were you in meetings or part of any discussions, uh, regarding the [3:22:14] pardon of January 6th committee members and staff? [3:22:16] No, I was not. [3:22:17] Did anyone discuss these pardons with you? [3:22:25] The decision process? No. [3:22:28] So the only discussions that you would have on these would be how you would [3:22:33] communicate them from the podium? [3:22:35] Correct. [3:22:36] Thank you. [3:22:38] Or to the press more generally. [3:22:42] And these are related questions, just thinking more broadly of other types of executive actions, [3:22:49] such as executive orders or, um, signing bills or things of that nature. [3:22:55] Um, we talked about it a little bit in the context of the very senior staff and senior [3:23:01] staff meetings that occurred each morning. [3:23:04] Um, I feel free to correct me, but I think what you said was that those things would [3:23:09] come up, um, during those meetings, but it sounded like that that was not a meeting where [3:23:15] the decision process was discussed at length. [3:23:17] Is that? [3:23:17] That's correct. [3:23:18] I would see those meetings in the morning as more like a check-in meeting. [3:23:21] I think I said that earlier. [3:23:23] So were you involved in any meetings or discussions? [3:23:26] Were there any discussions that were more substantive than that with regard to making [3:23:30] other types of executive decisions like executive orders? [3:23:33] No. [3:23:33] So same question that my colleague just asked you, you would essentially only [3:23:38] have conversations about those types of actions in the context of answering questions on the [3:23:43] podium or telling somebody that you had been receiving questions about them. [3:23:47] That's right. [3:23:48] That's correct. [3:23:48] So do you have any understanding of what the process for, um, getting an exec, getting [3:23:56] the sign off from the president on a given executive action was? [3:24:00] Can I step back from your previous question? [3:24:02] There would be times where we would look at the week ahead and we would say the president's [3:24:07] going to potentially make this announcement or that announcement, but I was never part [3:24:11] of the decision making. [3:24:12] I was never part of how, I was never, I wasn't in the room for those particular, um, executive [3:24:18] orders or decisions to be made. [3:24:20] Sure. [3:24:22] So do you have an awareness of what the process looked like for making an executive decision or [3:24:27] getting the president signed? [3:24:27] Were you ever in the room when somebody gave a verbal, um, authorization, I'll start again, [3:24:40] when our understanding is that there is a decision card or decision memo that goes to [3:24:46] the president, um, and that he signs that basically indicating his intention to do whatever, [3:24:54] um, executive action, um, were you ever in the room when somebody verbally communicated [3:24:59] that the president intended to do something? [3:25:01] When you knew he had not signed? [3:25:03] No, I'm not aware of that. [3:25:05] And similarly, are you familiar with the process by which official documents [3:25:13] are signed with the, with the auto pen? [3:25:15] No. [3:25:16] Was the auto pen ever something that, what, that came up? [3:25:22] Um, were there ever talking points in your briefing book about the auto pen? [3:25:26] Not that I recall. [3:25:28] Um, do you have any knowledge of president Biden's political advisors [3:25:44] weighing in on any, any healthcare he should or should not receive? [3:25:47] No. [3:25:49] Um, were you present for any of president Biden's meetings with Dr. Kevin O'Connor? [3:25:57] No. [3:26:00] Do you know who would attend those meetings? [3:26:02] I would not. [3:26:06] Are you aware of anyone in the White House advocating for you to no longer be press secretary? [3:26:15] I don't. [3:26:17] I mean, look, just as there were a lot of stories written, as you know, uh, but all [3:26:22] I can say is I stayed to as press secretary till the end. [3:26:25] Yes, ma'am. [3:26:26] I do know. [3:26:27] And one of the, one of those stories was. [3:26:29] Yeah. [3:26:29] That Anita Dunn had advocated for you to no longer be press secretary. [3:26:35] Do you have any knowledge of that? [3:26:38] I know of the story. [3:26:39] Um, I can't speak to the validity of the story, uh, but I am aware that it's out there and [3:26:46] exists. [3:26:52] Did Ms. Dunn ever raise anything with you about no longer being press secretary? [3:26:55] What I will say is that, um, we had a professional relationship, um, in these types of high stakes, [3:27:04] uh, type of jobs. [3:27:06] Are there disagreements? [3:27:07] Yes. [3:27:08] There are disagreements. [3:27:09] Um, did we have disagreements? [3:27:11] Yes, we had disagreements, but, uh, all in all, our relationship was, we kept it on a [3:27:17] professional level. [3:27:19] Um, there have been a number of books released in the, um, months following, uh, Joe Biden [3:27:29] leaving office. [3:27:30] I hear there are better ones coming out. [3:27:32] Sorry. [3:27:33] Just for the record. [3:27:34] Just for the record. [3:27:35] For the record. [3:27:36] I have no reason to doubt it. [3:27:37] Um. [3:27:38] I know you're gonna. [3:27:39] I know you're gonna read it. [3:27:40] I can see it. [3:27:41] Um, did you, um, ever speak with Jake Tapper or Alex Thompson for their book, Original [3:27:51] Sin? [3:27:52] No. [3:27:58] You were not a source for this book? [3:27:59] No. [3:28:00] Did you speak with, uh, Chris Whipple for the book Uncharted? [3:28:03] No. [3:28:04] Did you speak with Josh Dawsey, Tyler Pager, Isaac Armsdorff for their book 2024? [3:28:12] No. [3:28:17] Did you ever discourage people from speaking with any of these people that I just talked [3:28:20] to, uh, from speaking with them? [3:28:22] No. [3:28:23] It's my understanding actually that, um, for the book Original Sin, um, there was somewhat [3:28:34] of a, uh, a strategy to encourage people in the White House to, to speak with Mr. Thompson [3:28:43] or Mr. Tapper. [3:28:44] Are you aware of that? [3:28:45] I am aware of that. [3:28:46] Yes. [3:28:47] Did anyone ask you to speak? [3:28:48] No. [3:28:53] Do you know what the, what, what, what rationale underlay that decision to have him speak? [3:28:58] I, I, my guess would be the book is gonna be written. [3:29:01] It's gonna be written anyway, so maybe we can, folks can help with the, to, with the [3:29:08] narrative of the book. [3:29:09] Have you read the book? [3:29:10] No. [3:29:11] I've not read the book. [3:29:15] There are several unnamed cabinet secretaries in the book. [3:29:16] Do you know who those were? [3:29:17] I didn't, I didn't read it, so I can't even speak to it. [3:29:18] Off the record? [3:29:19] You said previously, uh, you're not aware of the autoprint process. [3:29:20] Um, but just so for the record, uh, we just want to ask you a couple questions. [3:29:21] Sure. [3:29:33] Um, Ms. Jean-Pierre, to your knowledge, are you aware of any instance where an executive [3:29:34] order issued during the Biden presidency, um, would have, would have, would have, would [3:29:35] have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would [3:29:36] have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would [3:29:37] have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would [3:29:38] have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would [3:29:39] have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would [3:29:40] have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would [3:29:41] have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would [3:29:42] have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would [3:29:43] have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would [3:29:44] have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would have, would [3:29:45] during the Biden presidency was signed by auto-penned without President Biden's knowledge [3:29:49] or authorization? To my knowledge, no. And to your knowledge, are you aware of any instance [3:29:54] in which the auto-penn was used to sign a presidential memorandum issued during the [3:29:58] Biden presidency without President Biden's knowledge or authorization? To my knowledge, [3:30:03] no. And to your knowledge, are you aware of any instance in which the auto-penn was used to sign [3:30:09] a pardon issued during the Biden presidency without President Biden's knowledge or authorization? [3:30:16] To my knowledge, no. [3:30:17] And lastly, to your knowledge, are you aware of any instance in which the auto [3:30:21] pen was used to sign an order granting clemency issued during the Biden presidency [3:30:26] without President Biden's knowledge or authorization? [3:30:28] To my knowledge, no. [3:30:31] Go off the record.