The Michigan divide: Voters struggle with their Senate choice — All Over the Map

[00:00:00] Joseph: I'm a lifelong Democrat. I've never voted Republican a day in my life, but I feel so strongly about El Sayed not winning. [00:00:07] John King: Welcome to All Over the Map. I'm John King. We learn by listening to voters all across America and all across the political spectrum. It's affordability. It's the rising energy prices. Today, a Senate showdown in a purple state, vital to the balance of power in Washington. [00:00:23] Mike Rogers: He wants to apologize for America. I want to defend America. He wants to represent Palestine. I want to represent Michigan. [00:00:32] Speaker 4: The Islamophobia is rampant. The fear mongering is rampant. The ads that calling him a terrorist is disgusting and disappointing. [00:00:40] John King: Mike Rogers versus Abdul El Sayed. [00:00:42] Speaker 5: One of the most important things is to be able to go to a doctor when you get sick. [00:00:48] John King: The Michigan contest is a referendum on Medicare for All, a referendum on money and politics, a referendum on the direction of the Democrats. [00:00:56] Rob: We're seeing this polarization of candidates when most people live in the middle. [00:01:01] Speaker 7: A referendum on a president who has carried Michigan twice. He decried Donald Trump when Donald Trump came to power, and now he's willing to do whatever Donald Trump tells him to do so long as Donald Trump is happy with him. [00:01:13] Speaker 8: I do believe that Michigan will vote red, just like Michigan voted Trump. [00:01:18] John King: A fantastic group of Michigan voters with us today, split on this Senate race, but a great group to discuss the candidates and the big issues. I want to start by framing our conversation just to help us understand where everybody is with a few yes or no questions. Let's start with one of the big issues in the race. Do you believe tariffs and other big pieces of the Trump economic agenda are helping Michigan? Okay, mostly no's on that one. Joseph is a yes. Regardless of how you're voting, do you believe Abdul El Sayed will win this race and keep the Michigan Senate seat blue? Okay, we've got a split there. So let's get into it. Let's get to the elephant in the room. Two of the voters with us here today would be inclined to vote Democrats, but they can't support Abdul El Sayed. One of the reasons is Israel. Not the only reason, but one of the reasons is his views on Israel and other things he has said on issues related to the Middle East. And Mr. Rogers, the Republican candidates knows there are independents or Democrats out there who have these concerns, which is why when he gets a chance, he says things like this. [00:02:32] Mike Rogers: When a terrorist targeted a synagogue to kill 140 children inside, what did Abdul El Sayed have to say? Hurt people hurt people. A man attacks a school to kill children in the name of Hezbollah. And Abdul's instinct was to excuse it. No terror is terror. Evil is evil. Lauren, that was your synagogue. [00:03:02] Joseph: Yes. Yes. I grew up going there my entire life. I went to school there. I was confirmed there. I was bat mitzvahed there. I was married there. My parents still live a mile away, still go. So that to me is extremely troubling. When he said hurt people hurt people, there was a terrorist who drove their car trying to kill 140 children and who knows who else. And that was his first response. That is, there's no, there's no answer to that, to his statement. It's horrible. And being a Jewish person, I think that was the first straw for me and probably the last. It was really disappointing. [00:03:50] John King: He has since said that he understands now that he hurt a lot of people and that he wishes he could have chose his words differently. Do you take that as genuine, even though you said, you know, first straw, maybe last straw? Do you, even if you don't plan to vote for him, do you take from that any evidence that at least maybe he's listening and learning or do you think that's just politics and he realizes he [00:04:13] Joseph: has to say something different? I definitely think it's politics and he feels like that's what he had [00:04:18] John King: to say. Rob, when I first met you and some of your friends, we were having this conversation and both you and your friends were talking about how painful it was to maybe get to a point where you had a candidate who you had a hard time supporting or maybe couldn't support, even though, you know, in your back of the mind, your Senate race could come down to determining the balance of power in the United States Senate. If Mike Rogers wins, it is possible that the Democrats come up one seat short and that if you vote for Rogers, you might help flip red. How do you deal with that? [00:04:49] Rob: Yeah, I think, I think you've put your finger on it is. And, and I can say that the, you know, the Jewish community as a whole is, is torn about this discussion in this debate and particularly those of us that consider ourselves Democrats or progressives and, um, have tried to open every door towards, um, El Sayed, um, giving us the opportunity to vote for him, right? There is the non-negotiables that a group of rabbis put out about basic premise of, you know, the right of Jews to live in peace, the, you know, the right of Israel to exist. Um, the apology that you referenced was a non-apology apology and said, I just picked the wrong timing. And, um, you know, October 7th just came and we didn't hear a word from El Sayed. And so even in the moments of politics, um, the most basic statements of, you know, I'm sorry Jews died and I'm sorry for this. We can have lots of debate about Israel. And I think that there's lots of ways that Israel, uh, behaves that are, uh, frustrating. The, the problem is, is Israel exists. It's not going away. Um, and it's a very unrealistic position. And the way that it's getting talked about is driving up antisemitism. It's making Jews unsafe. Um, and I think that, you know, we fundamentally are not asking for much other than the ability to say, Hey, we want to be able to feel safe and not have snipers on the roof when we go to pray. [00:06:20] Joseph: I'm a lifelong Democrat. I've never voted Republican a day in my life, but I feel so strongly about El Sayed not winning because I don't believe that he supports the Jewish community and the safety of the Jewish community that I actually, I, I'm happy to place my vote for Rogers as much. I am. Like I said, again, I've never voted Republican ever, but that's how much I don't want him to be elected. [00:06:49] John King: Jade, listening to that, I just want to get your perspective. Uh, and I just want to tell the others as I asked for it, you know, just remind them of how we first met. I came to the university campus when you're at the university of Michigan, you're active in the college Democrats. Uh, the campus in those days was full of the protests after October 7th, uh, of students, uh, Palestinian students, but also other just young students supporting the Palestinian students who were out there protesting, you know, uh, on making their point that they believed Israel had grossly over-responded, uh, disproportionately responded. Uh, and that was part of your passion, uh, at the moment. Uh, what did, what do you make of what you just heard? [00:07:28] Speaker 4: I feel deeply, deeply sad. Um, and, you know, heartbroken in response to the attack on your community. I also have friends who are lifelong attenders of the synagogue down there. I'm not a Jewish woman. Um, but I am a Michigander. Uh, and so I want to, you know, stand with Michiganders, and I, I condone any, any violence anywhere, um, at any time, but I am definitely disheartened to hear that, you know, there are, there are voters, there are lifelong Dems that are, you know, going to be casting a ballot for MAGA Mike Rogers, um, in this election at this, you know, political moment. Um, and yeah, you did meet me at quite an interesting time, you know, on a very active campus, um, and where there were a lot of protests happening, but there was also a lot of just sadness about the loss of human life. And I just feel like we should all be able to understand that the loss of human life at any point in time is sad. Um, but that includes the genocide that Israel is imposing on the Palestinian people. That makes me sick too. Walter and Joseph, you're on a factory floor every day. [00:08:36] John King: Uh, when this race is discussed and whether you're ha when you're having debates about El Syed or Rogers, um, does this issue come up or is it more about, you know, taxes and spending [00:08:47] Speaker 8: and affordability and jobs? Um, just me speaking on the floor. We never talk about Israel or Iran or anything like that. I think people more concerned with, and this election is more is about our finances, our way of life. Um, I, I, I understand what's going on in Israel and, you know, I'm mixed there. You know, I support our country supporting Israel, but I also believe that on both sides is wrong on both [00:09:20] Speaker 5: sides. And I just don't think it's all Israel. Walter. Well, yeah, I, there are some, uh, Jewish people, uh, that I've spoken with here, uh, and they, uh, they, uh, are having the same struggle. Uh, the words that, that El Syed used were very unfortunate. Uh, the act that happened was just like less than two miles away from my plane. Okay. So it is, it's hurt the community. Uh, and I really, uh, my heart really goes out to those people who were, uh, who were involved in that. Uh, but just like Joseph said, uh, people, uh, when I talk to them, they are talking about cost. They're talking about how long, uh, their money stretches and how much shorter is stretching nowadays. [00:10:18] Rob: Walter, I, I mean, I, I'm as frustrated as you are about where this conversation is. And that's why we fought so hard in the primary is not to end up with someone who is distracting from the important, economic and progressive issues with stances and views on things that are not helpful. It's frustrating that this is the candidate that the democratic party has put up, um, that, that we're stuck with two, uh, really difficult and bad choices and having to, having to choose between them. [00:10:53] Speaker 5: It wasn't the democratic party that put him up. They actually, he was the outsider at that point, just like Trump was 10 years ago. He was the outsider. And, and so, uh, they had to go with the person who the people, uh, picked. And, uh, the only reason that the Jewish, uh, issue keeps coming up is because they keep bringing it to him. He's been talking about, uh, uh, money in your pocket, uh, money out of politics, Medicare for all. That's his three things that he's saying over [00:11:29] John King: and over and over again. But if he is in the United States Senate, yes, those are his signature issues. But on the other hand, if he gets the job, um, he's going to be a vote in whether the Democrats narrowly win the Senate or the Republicans narrowly keep the Senate in an evenly divided Senate, he's going to be a vote for, you know, a military aid to Israel. He's going to be a vote if it comes up. Does Israel have a right to exist as a Jewish state? He's going to have to vote on foreign policy. [00:11:53] Joseph: Well, he's already, he's already stated he doesn't even want to protect the Jewish nation. And he doesn't even want them to be able to fight back or protect themselves. We're such a small minority. He has such a focus on the Jewish people. I'm not really sure why, but I mean, for him to not give, um, money and aid for Israel to defend themselves against the enemy. I mean, that pretty much sums up his, his beliefs and the Jewish people and what he cares about. [00:12:21] John King: Tony, you've been patient and silent during this. Kamala Harris lost your state by about 80,000 votes last time. Alyssa Slotkin won a Senate seat by 19,000 votes. So a very small number of votes can matter. [00:12:34] Speaker 9: Every vote does matter. And, and I don't like people talking about the idea that, well, we're just trading one minority population for another. Um, I don't like fracturing Democratic voters or Michiganders into, Hey, we'll reactivate the, the Muslim American vote. We lost in Kamala's race for the Jewish vote that we're losing now. Um, my husband is Jewish. And while I myself am agnostic, um, he and his family have been following, um, Abdul El-Sayed's, uh, speeches and what he has said very closely, obviously. And it's a terrible situation. And, and I don't think that the number of times he has talked to different members of the Jewish community here and said how much he respects them and how much he wants safety for, um, the Jewish community here in Michigan. I don't, I don't think there's anything that he can say that can explain the context of some of the other things that he has said. [00:13:41] John King: So let's move, let's move then to the economic conversation, the affordability conversation. These are my words, not their words, but, uh, you heard what Mr. Rogers says and his, his campaign seems largely to be about, you can't vote for this guy because he's not one of us. Uh, Mr. Al Sayed's campaign, he looks at Trump, he looks at Rogers and he says, listen, this guy doesn't get you and he doesn't get your stress. Listen. [00:14:04] Speaker 7: They're paying more for things like groceries and gas, and they can't see a doctor in the richest, most powerful country in the world. So I will sit down with anybody and everybody who I can to actually try to address those problems and maybe even sit down, uh, with the president. What do you hear in there? [00:14:20] Speaker 4: I want to start with acknowledging how disgusting the attacks from Republicans, really from people across the aisle are against Dr. Abdul Al Sayed. The Islamophobia is rampant. The fear mongering is rampant. The ads that calling him a terrorist is disgusting and disappointing. And so I think any, anybody using that messaging to try to attack him and to support Mike Rogers is just, I, I can't understand it. And I really won't tolerate it. It's rude. And it's, we should be above that. It's racist. So I feel like we got it right there. And then the policies, I mean, I want to talk about Abdul's policies. I wish Mike Rogers would focus on Abdul's policies. [00:15:02] Speaker 8: I think, I think some of these harsh critics about him is justified. There's things that's been coming out about him. He's saying things about women. It's this credible things that's been said about him. I don't, I don't think it's disgusting. I just think that this is politics. People get into your business and this is what's coming up. [00:15:21] Speaker 5: That's not, that stuff that they're saying is not credible. That stuff is not credible. That stuff that they're saying is, is, is sound bites. They're saying that he's not a doctor when he is a doctor. There's any time that you can sit up here and talk about his family and telling them that they're talking about this guy's mother. Why don't you talk about the issues that really affect people? Why are you going out and talking about all of this other stuff, a terrorist? Come on now. That's, that's crazy. [00:15:53] John King: Rob, what's the reset button to have an adult conversation that hopefully turns down the volume and turns up the understanding? How do we get there? [00:16:03] Rob: Yeah, I, I think that that's exactly the right question. And, and honestly, it's one of, you know, even if you take Israel off of the table, which of course, and Jews off of the table, because I think they're two separate issues, but I, it's why I struggle with El-Sayed as a candidate anyways, because what we're seeing and it's being built up by social media and it's being, being built up is we're seeing this polarization of candidates when most people live in the middle. And I'm not calling El-Sayed a radical just to be clear. But what I am saying is the farther we get to the polls, the less ability there is to have rational conversation. And El-Sayed either the parties moving to him, which is what we'll find out as part of this election and some of the other things, or he is on the far end of the party. [00:16:57] John King: We'll keep having this conversation as we head into the next cycle, which will be as interesting, if not more so than this one. If you look at the polling, this is a Fox News poll, but they've all been pretty consistent, a point or two, right? The next one has El-Sayed 50, Rogers 49. You might see one of the candidates up two or three points in different polls back and forth. That makes it a statistical tie. You have a dead heat race heading in to the final days. What's interesting is among voters over the age of 45, Rogers leads by a little tiny bit. And among voters under the age of 45, El-Sayed has a more healthy lead. Jada is someone who's a younger person. Why the age gap there? What's, what is it? [00:17:37] Speaker 4: I work for a nonprofit and I work for an organization that turns out young voters. And so I talk to a lot of young people on campus. Also, I'm a recent college grad. I'm only 23. I'm probably Gen Z. I think the future is progressive. I think younger people generally are going to be more progressive. But I do think that more than anything, it's about Abdul actually talking to young people. And Michigan is one of the states that's going to be most impacted by youth voter turnout because we have so many young people in Michigan. And so I think, please trust young people and trust that we are involved, we care, and we're going to show up. [00:18:13] Speaker 9: And one of the reasons, importantly, that our youth can show up in Michigan is because we're not suffering from a lot of the voter suppression that some states have put their college students and their young people through. [00:18:26] John King: Walter, when I was there during the primary, you know, the UAW, you're a proud member, supported Mr. Al-Sayed. But I remember I was in the union hall and some of your brothers and sisters around were having a conversation. They said there was a generational divide. What was the divide? Was it about an issue? Is it about just relationships with the candidate? What was it? [00:18:46] Speaker 5: Well, I think that the more that people learned about him and saw him speak, because even at that time when we spoke, I had really not seen a lot of Al-Sayed. But then when I first started looking, I started seeing some of his speeches, seeing some of the stuff he was talking about. Mike Rogers, he barely goes out. I don't even know how people can vote for him because they never see him. [00:19:15] John King: Joseph, what makes you think this year, in this national climate, Mike Rogers can win? [00:19:21] Speaker 8: People have concerns with how I do. So, I just, I don't, I keep saying that he's coming around and talking to people. We haven't seen him. You know, and my job, and I work in Detroit, and we haven't seen him. So, I'm not, he might be on the cottage campuses, probably we spend most of his time at. But the blue-collar workers, we have not been, we haven't seen him. So, I do believe that Michigan will vote red, just like Michigan voted for Trump. So, I think Mike Rogers is going to win. He talks our language. And now, our language is manufacturing, strengthening the manufacturing. [00:20:01] Speaker 5: But, Joseph, what about Al-Sayed working in the city of Detroit, making sure the kids had glasses, making sure that they had dental care? What about stuff like that? And then, you're talking about a majority black city. What about that type of stuff? [00:20:16] Speaker 8: That's good. I'm glad you brought that up, because none of those things matters to Detroit. What matters to Detroit is safety. And that's another thing that we have an issue with him about, that he is wanting to defund the police. He lost the, he also lost the police union, and he lost the fire department union. I don't believe that his, that what really matters, I don't believe that he's going to support what really matters. No one cares about glasses. Those are the things that doesn't change. Those are the things that don't pay the bills. [00:20:46] Speaker 5: All right? When your kid needs glasses, when your kid needs dental care, because they have abscesses and their teeth aren't right, that's a kitchen table topic right there. That takes money out of people's pocket. And so, it has to be a kitchen table topic. [00:21:03] Speaker 8: Safety is also, jobs is what's, I think that people will choose where to have a job and where to have the police come to your door, or glasses. What do you think that people are going to already choose the most? Glasses or safety? Safety or jobs? What do you think people are already going to choose? Like Detroit has one of the highest crimes. So, I'm sorry. If anything, we need strengthen and more stronger presidents with the police. They need to have every asset to tools they need to protect the city and protect the state, because we've got a lot of issues going on, harsh crime in the state. [00:21:38] John King: Well, hopefully after the election, we reconvene and we have this conversation where we have a better sense of who won and how many of these candidates will be in the Congress. Just a couple more questions as we close on this race. One of the central issues for the Democratic candidate, Mr. El-Sayed, is Medicare for all. Yes or no? Do you support Medicare for all? [00:21:56] Speaker 8: Medicare for all, huh? I'm going to go yes. [00:22:03] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:22:04] John King: All right. So, that's interesting. Walter, I want to start with you. This has been one of the conversations. Do you want more government influence, government-run, big government decisions about your health care like Medicare for all for me? And can you sell that to people who get, you know, health care from their employers or health care through their unions? Why did you answer yes, Walter? [00:22:26] Speaker 5: Because that's one of the major pieces that people file bankruptcy on is under medical debt. So, the most important thing, well, one of the most important things is, is to be able to go to a doctor when you get sick, be able to afford prescription drugs, and not have someone that will talk to you or be in between you and your doctors. [00:22:56] John King: Joseph, to you on the same point, you voted for Donald Trump, who doesn't like Medicare for all, who doesn't like the Affordable Care Act. Why did you say yes? [00:23:07] Speaker 8: You know what? I should, you know, I should have put both cards up, yes and no. [00:23:11] John King: Okay. [00:23:12] Speaker 8: And to be honest with you, I support Medicare for all, only for cost reasons. [00:23:21] Joseph: I don't necessarily think that Medicare for all is going to work, no matter who's elected, because it doesn't seem possible. We haven't had that. So, I do think all Americans should have access to good health care, but I also think that Americans should be able to be able to pay and choose the insurance that they want. [00:23:41] John King: In your state, look at this one. This is from a New York Times-Siena poll. Do you support Medicare for all? 56%. 56%, nearly 6 in 10 in a purple state say yes. It's a 2 to 1 lead over opposing Medicare for all, 27. Then 15% say it doesn't matter either way. 3% say they don't know. So, Jade, what does that tell you? [00:24:01] Speaker 4: I would love to see Medicare for all, but on the way to that, I want to see expanded health care access, period. So, getting more people health care, I don't think is a radical idea. I don't really think it should be a controversial idea. [00:24:13] Speaker 9: When we're the richest country in the world, it's kind of shameful that we haven't figured this out already. And regardless of who wins the Senate rates in Michigan, we have to get this conversation going. And it's not going to happen in two years, regardless of who's president. But we need our government to get on the ball. [00:24:33] John King: So, we're in the final days of literally a 50-50 Senate race that could decide the balance of power in the United States Senate. Clearly, some disagreement of the conversation, which is fine. That's what a democracy is. We're not going to settle all the debates today. What I want to do is just go around and give each of you sort of a last word about what you think is most important in this race and maybe what you think will settle it in the end. [00:24:58] Speaker 8: You know, I think the most important issue is what candidate is going to fix the gap from the high honors to the middle class. How are we going to fix that? Because to be honest with you, you know, I'm voting red, but my pockets are still hurting, no matter who's in office. [00:25:23] Speaker 4: Well, I mean, midterm elections are supposed to be your response to the presidential administration. Maybe not supposed to be, but that often ends up being how they work, right? So, you know, if you're happy with the pointless war in Iran, high gas prices, high grocery prices, people being murdered in the streets, ice going unchecked, and a completely incompetent con man convicted felon in the office, then maybe you should vote for MAGA Mike Rogers, who's committed to doing his bidding and who is going to work on behalf of his corporate donors and not Michiganders. I am going to approach this race voting for progress, voting for change, voting for Abdul El-Sayed. [00:26:05] Joseph: So, I am looking for a candidate who will support the Jewish community, who will keep the Jewish community safe, who will stand up to terrorism. [00:26:16] Speaker 5: Well, of course, the kitchen table topics would be what I am hearing. I've been phone banking for the last month or so, and everyone is saying the same thing. The energy prices, the gas prices, the home prices, things that they are scared that their children will not prosper as much as they are. [00:26:41] Speaker 9: I think we're going to see a lot of ticket splitting here in Michigan this year. I think we're going to get our governor and lieutenant governor, secretary of state, and a lot of our congressional delegates on the Democratic side, and possibly not, El-Sayed. And that is my candidate, and that's who I'll be backing. [00:27:04] Rob: I am a ticket splitter, and I have to say, it really is painful to be put into a position to vote on the Republican side of the ticket. It is not a choice that I want to be making. It is an uncomfortable choice, but I don't view El-Sayed as someone who's interested in compromising or in looking in how to actually get things done. [00:27:30] John King: There's proof here in this conversation of why this is such a close, competitive, and contentious race, and proof here also of why Michigan is such a purple and interesting battleground stand. I want to thank you all for your time in the conversation. I want to thank you all for having it in a feisty but civil way. I think that's the best way to do it. And thank you for joining me this way, and I look forward to coming to see you again in your community as soon as I can. Thank you.