The Immigration Debate — Sky News — Watch in full

[0:00] Immigration has divided the nation with protests on Britain's streets. [0:05] It's the number one issue. [0:07] We'll hear from the people. [0:09] We'll question the politicians. [0:12] This is the immigration debate. [0:14] Unless the vote itself fails, all of those people will be landing in Britain. [0:29] Our country's ruined. [0:31] They've ruined. [0:32] It's an invasion. [0:33] They're mocking. [0:35] They're mocking. [0:35] They're mocking. [0:36] They're mocking. [0:36] They're mocking. [0:37] I think this lot down the road, they need somebody to hate. [0:42] The Home Office says it's carrying out a blitz on the thousands of migrants already here, [0:50] suspected of working illegally. [0:52] You've got one arrest being made here. [0:57] We've never seen that line as high as it's been recently. [1:03] Immigration is the number one issue. [1:07] The whole atmosphere of the place has changed. [1:10] And it's strange to hear foreign languages spoken so frequently. [1:15] I'm all up for immigrants coming, but sign the paperwork. [1:26] Good evening. [1:28] Immigration. [1:29] It's been the issue of the summer. [1:32] But behind the arguments about asylum hotels and small boats, there's a deeper debate going on across the country. [1:39] Britain is no stranger to newcomers, but the numbers now entering the United Kingdom are higher than they've ever been. [1:53] When my own parents arrived here as part of the early 1950s Windrush wave, annual immigration numbered less than 10,000 people. [2:02] Last year, that number was almost a million. [2:05] Official estimates say that virtually all population growth in the next two decades will come from migration. [2:13] Most migrants come here legally to work and to study. [2:16] Many employers say they couldn't cope without foreign workers. [2:20] But some communities say that they just can't handle the speed and scale of immigration. [2:26] And the small number who do cheat the system have sparked fury. [2:31] Tonight, we'll try to find out what, if anything, can be done to answer those concerns. [2:35] We've gathered representatives of the four major parties here with me to hear directly from our live audience in Birmingham, [2:44] which has been selected by the polling company, Servation, to be nationally representative. [2:50] So, for the government, the Migration Minister and Dover MP, Mike Tapp. [2:55] For the Conservatives, the Shadow Justice Minister, Kieran Mullen. [3:00] For the Liberal Democrats, Home Office Spokesperson, Lisa Smart. [3:03] And for Reform UK, Head of Policy, Zia Youssef. [3:10] Well, before we hear from our audience, there's one thing that I want to ask each of you. [3:15] And this is what we've been hearing from people who've sent in questions from all over the country. [3:21] And I'm going to start with you, Mike Tappers, the new Immigration Minister. [3:25] You've been in post, what, four or five days? [3:28] What are you going to do that is different from what Yvette Cooper and her team did to answer these concerns? [3:37] It's a really important question. [3:38] Firstly, I have to make it really clear, Trevor, to the audience and to the viewers at home, [3:43] that this is an issue that is a top priority. [3:47] The security of our borders are vital to a nation's state, and we do not underestimate that. [3:53] And I have to say that the rhetoric around some of this from some parties has been wrong. [3:58] It's not racist to have these concerns. [4:00] But at the same time, we do this within our British families. [4:03] Can we just start the evening by being clear? [4:05] When you say some parties, name some names. [4:08] Well, look, I won't go into names here, but I will say really clearly that it's not racist. [4:13] You're talking about him, aren't you? [4:13] Not at all, because Zia Youssef has said that he is concerned, but I'm not talking about that. [4:19] I'm talking about the public at home. [4:20] I knock on thousands of doors in my constituency, and 99.9% of those that raise these issues with me are decent people who want to see a fair system and secure borders. [4:31] Now, what we've seen under Yvette is a fantastic start. [4:34] We're putting in counter-terror powers. [4:36] We've got those deportations and removals increasing by 14%. [4:41] We're making sure that we've got the relationships upstream with international partners. [4:46] Now we've got a new home temperature. [4:48] You've got a new immigration minister, as you can see. [4:50] We're going to go harder. [4:51] We're going to go faster. [4:52] We're going to fix this problem for the people at home. [4:54] Mike, we've got some new people with new red boxes, and you've told me what's wrong with all the other guys. [4:59] What you haven't told me is the answer to the question I asked you, which is, what are you going to do differently from Yvette Cooper, which has led to, in the last week, the highest number of crossings for some years across the channel in small boats, and ever-rising numbers of immigration, legal and illegal. [5:22] Are you going to do something that is different, or are you still going to be doing what the last team did? [5:28] I was coming to that, Trevor. [5:29] Don't worry. [5:31] Could you come to it? [5:32] Look, what we've seen from Yvette is fantastic. [5:34] What we're going to see going forward is essentially doing what it takes. [5:39] We're starting already to explore Ministry of Defence sites to take people out of hotels. [5:44] We're looking at the ECHR to ensure we can deport and remove more people. [5:49] We'll make sure that the French deal improves and we're taking on the smuggling gangs. [5:54] We're going to go harder, faster, and deliver on this topic. [5:56] All right, well, we'll try and find out what actually will allow you to do that. [6:00] But let me turn now to Kieran Mullen. [6:04] Kieran, I guess you're in the unfortunate position of being the guy who represents a party that has not yet been forgiven for presiding over the fastest rise in immigration numbers. [6:19] Your leader has said that it was a mistake and you're sorry about it, but you clearly haven't been forgiven. [6:27] What can you say to this audience tonight that will make them think that you have finally actually understood what they are bothered about? [6:35] I think you're right, Trevor. [6:37] My experience from the election, knocking on doors, peeing to people just like you've got in your audience, is that they were disappointed and angry that we didn't get the policies on legal and legal migration right. [6:48] And what we've been doing since the election, quite rightly, is taking the time to really think very carefully about how people want things to change. [6:56] And it's fine for people to be angry, and I understand that, and it's fine for people to criticise what we've done in the past. [7:01] But what I think constituents want to hear from me when I'm speaking to them is specifically what would we do differently if we were in government. [7:08] And I can give you a number of examples. [7:09] We've set out very radically different policies to those that we had when we were last in office. [7:14] For example, we've said very clearly that we'll disapply all Human Rights Act legislation when it comes to immigration cases. [7:20] I think that's really important. [7:22] We've said we'll make it much harder for people to secure the right to stay here, doubling the amount of time people have to be in the country before they can make a claim to stay, [7:31] and actually be much tougher on things like how much money they earn. [7:34] Not just looking at how much money they earn as an individual, but how much does their household earn as a whole to make sure that they're net contributors. [7:41] Those are just some of the examples. [7:42] I think I've met your test of being specific, Trevor, about what we were doing. [7:45] They're clear examples. [7:46] I want to just quickly ask you two things. [7:48] One is, what you said sounds very like the things that the gentleman sitting next to you said to me on Sunday mornings when I interview him. [7:56] And secondly, I think most people watching will ask, [8:00] if this is so clear and simple, why didn't you do it in the 14 years you were in government? [8:06] Well, I think the beauty of being in a democracy is, of course, when you're in a party in government, you're doing what you think the people want you to do. [8:13] You're trying to deliver on a whole range of different priorities, whether it's the health service, the economy, jobs, schools. [8:19] No, but why didn't you do this particular set of things? [8:21] We paid insufficient attention to the issue of legal and illegal migration. [8:26] I think, for example, on illegal migration in particular, the policy where we ended up, the idea of sending people to a safe third country, [8:33] that is the right policy and remains the right policy to tackle this issue. [8:37] But we were too slow in putting that forward and we didn't get the chance to operate it. [8:42] That's a good example of where we could have done better. [8:44] We should have acted more quickly and listened to people more clearly. [8:46] But what I'm really clear in telling all of you and people at home is that we have listened, we have changed, we have a new leader. [8:52] This is a new approach and actually we're united as a party in delivering on these issues. [8:56] Lisa Smart, an interesting stream of questions for the Liberal Democrats came through. [9:03] And let me summarise this way. [9:07] Most people know that you stand for and have spoken about the benefits of immigration. [9:13] You think that other parties don't speak about that enough. [9:19] Let's put that to one side. [9:21] The question that people are asking is, when it comes to the issue of small boats and asylum seekers, [9:28] the qualification is that people are fleeing a country where they have a well-founded sense of fear of persecution. [9:39] Why are people coming from France or the Netherlands or Spain, which are rich and democratic countries, asylum seekers? [9:50] They are not fleeing persecution. [9:53] So we have a problem with this in our country. [9:56] We shouldn't have 30,000 people in asylum hotels and we certainly shouldn't have 90,000 people in the asylum backlog. [10:01] So it is absolutely a problem and the government needs to work harder and faster to fix it. [10:07] People come to this country for all sorts of reasons. [10:09] It can be historic reasons, it can be family ties, it can be because some of the pull factors that are going on, [10:17] and I'm sure we'll talk about some of the gangs that are working and being modern slavers in this country. [10:22] The business model that they have is so lucrative that that's encouraging them to force people to come across and work illegally. [10:29] There are other factors at play. [10:31] When you ask people who have come over on small boats, as the Migration Observatory of Oxford University has done, [10:38] people say actually Brexit is a factor because we used to have a returns agreement when we were members of the European Union, [10:44] the Dublin system, that doesn't exist anymore, and migrants themselves have said that that has been a pull factor for them. [10:50] I don't think that still quite answers the question that has been raised. [10:54] There are lots of reasons why people might want to move, but the issue of asylum is one which depends on the person fleeing having a well-founded fear of persecution. [11:06] And why would somebody who is in France be justified in fleeing France? [11:13] It's a democratic country. [11:14] So every country should play their role. [11:16] There is a lot of instability in the world. [11:19] You look at a number of countries that are really high-grant countries, so Somalia, Eritrea, Sudan. [11:26] These are countries where very high numbers of people who come across get granted refugee status because they have a valid claim. [11:34] All right. [11:35] Zia Yusuf, you and your leader have been very much at centre of this conversation, [11:41] and Mr Farage has been pretty clear. [11:44] I don't think we need to go over your policy. [11:46] But there is a rather interesting question that's been raised by several people that have written in to us. [11:54] You want to bring down the numbers of immigrants, both legal and legal, asylum seekers, labour market. [12:03] Do you just want to bring down numbers of all people, [12:06] or are you particularly concerned about one kind of immigrant or another because they are young or because they are male or because they come from one country or whatever? [12:17] Is it all immigration or are you concerned about some particular kinds of migrants? [12:23] Firstly, Trevor, you were talked about when your parents came to this country, I think you said in the early 1950s, net migration was around 10,000 a year. [12:32] When my parents came to this country in the early 1980s, net migration was around 30,000, 40,000 a year. [12:38] Last year it was about a million. [12:39] And by the way, during the 14 years of Tory government, they imported 11 million people. [12:45] That is the equivalent of the population of Bangkok that was imported by a party that promised in four consecutive manifestos [12:53] that they were going to cut net migration down to the tens of thousands. [12:56] To answer your question directly, number one, we need to stop the boats from coming. [13:00] But number two, the biggest number we're going to bring down, which nobody else here has talked about, [13:04] is the number of people who were already in this country illegally, Trevor. [13:08] There's north of a million people in this country illegally. [13:11] A lot of them are being paid for by the people in this audience and the people watching this programme at home. [13:17] That's why we announced Operation Restoring Justice to deport all of those people back to the countries from which they came. [13:23] Beyond that, of course that will mean the boats stop coming, [13:26] because why would you pay a people smuggler to just get detained and deported? [13:30] And in terms of net migration, you know, in the last general election, we said it would be net zero, one in, one out. [13:36] I think given how overwhelmed this country is going to be at the behest of the current Labour government [13:40] and what the Tories did over 14 years, even that's going to be too many. [13:44] I still don't quite get how you're selecting the people you don't want, [13:50] because your leader said, [13:51] we do want people to come and work in the health service, [13:54] we do want people to do certain jobs. [13:57] Who is it that you do not want to come to this country? [13:59] Who is reform worried about when it comes to immigration? [14:03] Trevor, the country's full. [14:04] They don't know. [14:04] Our infrastructure is overwhelmed. [14:07] By who? [14:08] We are going to have to free this migration for a number of, by whom? [14:13] Yes. [14:14] The 11 million people that the Tories brought in over the last 14 years, [14:17] and by the way, the OBRs, the government's own forecast for the next few years, [14:21] suggest another 1.5 million net new people will arrive before the next election. [14:26] Which is why, Trevor, we're not worried about who the people we need to bring in are. [14:29] We need to deport the people already here. [14:31] Zia, tonight is not my night, it's not your night, it is our audience's night. [14:34] So I think they've heard enough from me and you. [14:39] So let's come to the most important people to here tonight. [14:42] And I want to start the evening by trying to get to the heart [14:46] of why this issue has stirred such emotion and such anger, [14:52] the kinds of sense that we've seen on the streets this summer. [14:56] And I want to start with a question from Diane, who lives in Slough. [15:03] Hello. Diane. [15:04] Hello. Right, so what I would like to know is that if this was 1942 [15:10] and we had the amount of people that we currently have [15:16] coming across the Channel in small boats, [15:20] we would not have hesitated to deploy the Navy [15:24] and to line our shores with soldiers to protect us, [15:29] to protect the country and to protect the people in the country. [15:33] Why are we not doing that and sending these boats back, [15:39] redirecting them back to the countries that they are coming from, [15:44] which is a safe country, as has been stated, France? [15:48] Why are we not returning them? [15:51] OK. Thank you. Thank you, Diane. [15:53] Mike Tapp, why aren't we just sending these people back to France [15:57] and using our military forces to make sure that happens? [16:01] Thank you, Diane. It's a solid question [16:04] and something I've thought about in depth as well. [16:06] It's complex. [16:08] The issue we have here with deploying the Navy [16:11] is if we put them in our waters, it's not enough. [16:15] We'd need to be on the shores of France, and that's French territory. [16:18] So, effectively, we'd need to have French permission to be on the shores. [16:23] So, what we're doing at this point [16:25] is ensuring we're working closely with the French operationally [16:28] through things like technology, radars, drones, [16:32] ensuring that they've got enough people on the beach. [16:35] It's not enough at the moment. [16:36] It's as simple as that. [16:37] Otherwise, we wouldn't see the boats crossing as they are. [16:41] But we are going to put in other measures. [16:42] We're working hard with the French on returns, for example, [16:46] and if there's that doubt when you're sat on the beach [16:49] and you're spending £10,000 to get here [16:52] that you could be immediately removed back to France, [16:55] you're much less likely to cross. [16:57] Yeah, but I don't think you're quite answering her question. [16:59] Why aren't we putting in the Royal Navy? [17:01] Well, I did answer the question [17:02] in that you'd have to have French permission to do that. [17:05] We've got to have French permission to put our boats in the chair? [17:10] Right. Once you go into French waters, of course you do. [17:13] The challenge we have with this sort of boat, [17:15] and I must answer this properly for you, [17:18] is they're very flimsy dinghies and they collapse on themselves. [17:21] So if you start to try and turn one round, it collapses. [17:24] You've then got up to 100 people in the water potentially dying. [17:27] It's different in Australia, [17:29] because I have to make that point that they're still hulled, [17:31] so it makes it much more complex. [17:32] But it is a top priority to get this sorted. [17:35] Zia Youssef, you think this is not a bad idea, don't you? [17:38] Well, number one, people at home and the audience [17:39] can take a view as to whether we need France's permission [17:43] to deploy our own navy to stop these boats arriving on UK shores. [17:48] Secondly, the notion that our brilliant navy and royal marines [17:52] are incapable of boarding those boats... [17:53] I didn't say they're incapable. [17:54] I've served with the military. [17:55] I would not say that our military is incapable. [17:57] What I'm saying is... [17:58] So, listen, you're going to keep hearing words like further and faster, [18:04] and what they do is they come onto programmes like this [18:06] and they try to reprogram you at home [18:09] into forgetting about what a catastrophe the political class [18:12] have inflicted on this country. [18:14] Yes, we would have no hesitation in deploying the navy, [18:16] but here's the thing, Trevor, I keep saying this again. [18:18] OK, can I just stop you there? [18:20] Because when I asked you that question last weekend, [18:23] you said, yeah, we put the Royal Navy out, [18:25] and I said to you, what would be their audit? [18:27] Would they be able to stop the boats? [18:30] And you said, don't be ridiculous, [18:32] they wouldn't be able to do... [18:33] They'd be able to observe. [18:35] They don't know. [18:35] Hold on, hold on, that's all right, Trevor. [18:37] Either you misheard me, but that's... [18:38] No, no, no, the head of policy doesn't know. [18:41] Forgive me, sir. [18:41] That's not what I said. [18:42] The policy doesn't know. [18:44] That's not what I said. [18:44] The reform head of policy doesn't know. [18:46] That is not what I said. [18:47] Forgive me, sir, I do know what people say on my own programme. [18:51] And I was on your programme. [18:53] I'm a primary witness of that conversation too, my friend. [18:56] And so, look, I'm not claiming that you're deliberately misrepresenting it, [19:00] but I want to be really clear about what I did say, [19:02] which was that, number one, we're talking about the boats right now, [19:05] and that's obviously critically important, [19:07] but there's north of a million illegal migrants in this country already. [19:10] The reason why they are coming across the channel from France... [19:14] Forgive me, we're not talking about that. [19:15] We're trying to answer Diane. [19:17] Sorry, Diane, he doesn't know. [19:18] I'm really sorry about that. [19:19] If you let me finish my answer, with respect, please let me finish my answer. [19:23] The reason why they're coming across the channel from France, [19:26] which is a safe country, is because we're a soft touch. [19:27] We offer them a much better deal than the French. [19:29] The new deal under Prime Minister Farage will be, [19:32] you are detained by UK deportation command. [19:34] Forgive me. [19:35] You are detained, you're not allowed to walk around, [19:37] and you are deported back to the country from which they came. [19:39] But what you're actually not doing is answering her question. [19:42] Are you in favour of putting the Royal Navy in the channel or not? [19:46] And if you are, what would they do? [19:49] We would have no hesitation using the Navy to detain all of those illegal migrants, [19:53] transport them directly to a detention camp, and then deport them. [19:57] Lisa, what do you make of this? [19:58] So, Diane talked about the early 1940s. [20:01] I am immensely proud that our country welcomed my nan in the late 1930s [20:05] when she was fleeing the Nazis. [20:07] She was Jewish, she was living in Germany, and had she not come here, [20:09] I would not exist, and she came to contribute to our country. [20:13] And I'm immensely proud that our country welcomed her [20:16] and enabled her to contribute in that way. [20:18] We've got a really proud record that we should be really proud of. [20:21] I think you're right to ask about small boats, [20:23] but I want to take it even further back. [20:26] Most people who are fleeing war and persecution [20:28] want to seek asylum in a country much closer to home. [20:31] They want to return to their country [20:33] when the war or the instability is over. [20:38] And so what we should be doing far earlier [20:40] than when people get to the French coast [20:43] is actually supporting the efforts that are going on [20:46] throughout the United Nations. [20:47] This war and instability is a global problem [20:50] that needs a global solution. [20:51] We are at our best when we take a leadership role [20:54] on the international stage. [20:56] And so cutting the aid budget is short-sighted [20:58] and doesn't help address the process. [21:02] Can we just stick with this question about the channel? [21:05] Before I come to you, Kieran, I want to come to Cara, [21:07] who I think has a point, a view on this. [21:11] Cara from Nottingham, what is the question you wanted to ask? [21:16] Well, there's a large amount of racist protests [21:20] going on regarding hotel asylums. [21:24] I think it's more than 0.1%, but we'll agree to disagree. [21:28] And I was basically just wondering, where do we draw the line? [21:32] If we were to reduce immigration or stop it altogether, [21:36] would we then stop getting involved [21:37] in other countries' political scenarios? [21:40] Because we were all for immigration [21:41] when the war broke out in Ukraine and Russia, [21:45] but we're not with Gaza and Palestine? [21:49] OK, Kieran. [21:52] If I can just pick up on Diane's really important question. [21:55] I mean, the first thing to say is, despite all Mike's warm words at the start, [21:58] the actual number of people crossing has gone up. [22:01] It's higher. [22:01] It's at record levels compared to when Labour took office. [22:04] The number of people in hotels is higher [22:06] than it was when Labour took office. [22:08] So what they're doing... [22:09] 400 cross in 2018, 150,000... [22:11] Mike doesn't like to hear the reality, [22:14] but actually those are the facts [22:15] about what's been happening since Labour took office. [22:18] So what they're doing at the moment isn't working. [22:20] And you've asked the question about how we stop people crossing. [22:22] I agree with Mike. [22:23] I think in practical terms, if a dinghy is out in the ocean [22:26] and we were to intercept it and that topples over and people drown, [22:30] I don't think that's an outcome we want. [22:31] And actually, Trevor, you're completely right. [22:33] When Richard Tice, the deputy leader of reforms, [22:35] asked about what would the Navy do if it were deployed, [22:37] he said nothing, they would observe. [22:38] So you're completely correct, Paul Zia, up on that point. [22:41] But what I think is the underlying answer to this [22:43] is deterring people from crossing in the first place. [22:46] That's what the National Crime Agency say we should do. [22:48] They're not a political organisation. [22:50] They say we have to stop people from coming. [22:51] And you do that by saying, if you come here, you'll be deported. [22:55] And obviously, reform wants to do the same thing. [22:57] But their plan relies on other countries agreeing with us to do that. [23:00] And that's not proven successful, [23:01] which is why we said we should take them to a safe, third country. [23:05] I want to come back to Diane. [23:07] You've heard all their answers. [23:09] What do you make of it? [23:10] Lip service, if I'm honest. [23:12] Absolute lip service. [23:13] Because you've all had an opportunity. [23:17] The Conservatives have had an opportunity. [23:19] Labour, as you quite rightly said, [23:21] you've been in power for over 12 months [23:24] and the figures are higher than they've ever been. [23:26] Yeah. [23:27] Really? [23:29] Hang on, hang on. [23:30] In the past 12 months, they are higher. [23:32] So you're talking about deterrence. [23:36] You've had how many years to put deterrence in place [23:39] as the Conservatives? [23:41] It hasn't worked. [23:42] Yeah. [23:42] I'm really sorry that you feel that way. [23:44] Hang on. [23:44] It just hasn't worked. [23:45] I'm going to come back to the audience. [23:46] Cara, what did you make of it? [23:50] Cara. [23:50] Well, I mean, as you've already said, [23:52] I've travelled down from Nottingham. [23:53] So whilst I understand that Diane deserves full, you know, [23:57] opportunity to respond to their answers, [24:00] I would appreciate some respect in answering the question that I've asked, [24:02] not choosing to answer the question that you wanted to answer. [24:06] I'm happy to. [24:09] Yeah, I'm happy to. [24:11] Yeah, look, racism is unacceptable. [24:14] And there's no either or here. [24:17] We can secure the borders. [24:19] We can, and we will, move people into MOD sites, away from hotels. [24:23] But we do that within our British values. [24:26] And that's being strong but also being decent, [24:29] being firm but also being fair. [24:32] And racism is absolutely unacceptable. [24:35] And, of course, there is racism. [24:37] And what we mustn't do is dial that up. [24:40] And that's what we see from the likes of reform, [24:41] because they do use language such as fighting-age males, [24:45] which, by the way, I've served the country in Iraq and Afghanistan. [24:48] That's the language we use against the Taliban when we're fighting the Taliban. [24:52] But, dear, no, I'm saying you're raising the... [24:54] Tell me what the racist... [24:55] I'll answer your question. [24:56] What is racist about fighting-age males? [24:57] What I'm saying is you're raising the dial, raising the temperature with that language. [25:00] I used that language on the ground in Afghanistan when people were shooting at us. [25:04] You're using it about people who are looking for a better life. [25:07] It's absolutely disgraceful. [25:09] It feeds racism. [25:10] So, number one... [25:10] That's not British value. [25:12] You do not stand up for Britain. [25:13] Number one, the only person... [25:14] You do not like the fight. [25:14] You're plastic cut twits. [25:16] The only person who has used the word invasion since this programme began [25:20] was the introducer at the beginning... [25:22] I didn't say invasion. [25:23] And then the lady in the audience at the front. [25:24] I didn't say invasion. [25:26] We... [25:26] Yeah, I'm using the word invasion. [25:27] Because over the last eight and a half years, [25:29] more people have turned up on the beaches illegally, uninvited. [25:32] The majority of the men, [25:34] the majority of the fighting-age men that hate this country, [25:36] including countries like Afghanistan, Syria... [25:39] And, by the way, and by the way... [25:41] Disgraceful behaviour. [25:41] That is more people, that is more people, Mike... [25:43] This is what I mean. [25:43] That is more people than stormed the beaches... [25:45] You wrap yourself in our flag, but you will do nothing for this country. [25:48] That is more people than stormed the beaches of Normandy on D-Day. [25:51] And you are advocating, as the Immigration Minister for this country, [25:55] to leave our borders undefended, leave them open in the name of, quote, [25:58] British value. [25:59] What you're doing is betraying the British people. [26:01] Kieran, Kieran, what is your response to Cara's question? [26:05] This debate that you're hearing now between Mike and Zia [26:09] actually underlines to me how desperately important it is [26:11] that we actually get a grip on this issue. [26:14] Because I think... [26:15] You said at the start, at the intro, Trevor, [26:17] that we're a divided nation on this issue. [26:19] And while certainly there is pockets of really divided opinion, [26:21] in my experience, actually, [26:23] the vast majority of the public are on the same page. [26:25] They want the small boat crossings to stop. [26:27] They want to stop putting money into putting people up in hotels. [26:30] And they want more reasonable levels of migration to this country. [26:33] I think that's consensus, mainstream opinion. [26:35] And when mainstream politicians, and I've said at the start, [26:38] I take our share of blame in this, [26:39] don't deliver on those issues, [26:41] it leads the public to become more and more intolerant [26:43] and their patience to wear thinner and thinner. [26:45] And Zia can quite rightly articulate that frustration fair to him. [26:50] What I'm concentrating on, [26:51] what the Conservative Party is concentrating on, [26:53] is actually putting forward clear, credible plans, [26:56] taking Diane's point about that we had an opportunity [26:58] and we didn't, as I said, do it in the way I would have wanted us to. [27:00] But we're determined to do that now. [27:02] And it's only a clear, credible plan, thought through, [27:05] that it's going to make a difference to this issue in the end. [27:08] OK. All right. [27:09] So, Cara's question was about racism. [27:11] And I think it's really important to say [27:12] it is entirely possible to talk about immigration and asylum issues [27:15] without being a racist weirdo, [27:17] which is why it's so disappointing [27:19] when some people fail to manage that. [27:21] This is a problem that's been brought about. [27:23] It is a global concern, [27:24] but it is a real problem [27:26] because it was an active decision [27:27] taken by the last Conservative government [27:29] to essentially stop processing asylum applications. [27:32] All right. [27:32] That's why the backlog is so big. [27:34] That's why the taxpayer is paying so much money [27:37] and that is why it is so disappointing [27:39] that the Labour government isn't getting on with fixing it quickly. [27:41] Cara, have you got anywhere near an answer to your question? [27:44] No, the question was where do we draw the line? [27:47] If we were to stop immigration, [27:49] are we going to stop involving ourselves [27:50] in other countries' political situations [27:53] or are we going to help them as much as we can [27:55] but they're not allowed to come to our country? [27:57] And none of you seem to be answering that. [27:58] Well, I don't... [27:59] OK, we have... [28:01] You've all had a chance to ventilate your views on that. [28:03] We've been talking about people crossing a channel in small boats. [28:06] In just the last 24 hours, four people have died. [28:11] And I think we perhaps just need to draw breath on that. [28:15] That includes two children. [28:16] So far, more than 30,000 people have made [28:20] that incredibly dangerous journey. [28:23] Now, the previous government promised to stop the boats. [28:26] This one said they'd smash the gangs [28:29] and we've been hearing some of that tonight. [28:32] But the small boats' numbers have increased under Labour, [28:35] though they haven't reached the level seen under the Conservatives. [28:39] I want to come to Elliot from Newcastle, [28:43] who I think wants to talk about [28:46] some of the issues that have arisen this summer. [28:51] Elliot. [28:52] I'd like to ask, [28:53] why are hard-working taxpayers being forced to contribute more [28:58] in taxes to facilitate the state of mainly young male illegal immigrants, [29:04] but the quality of life for British people, [29:08] especially veterans who served for the country, [29:12] has shown little to no improvement at all. [29:16] OK. [29:16] Mike Tapp. [29:17] Look, I'm a veteran myself and it's an important question. [29:20] We've also got a veterans minister who's a veteran too. [29:23] So we're working hard to ensure that no veterans are homeless. [29:27] We're improving the mental health support for them. [29:29] So I just have to cover that off. [29:31] That's a top priority too. [29:33] But look, people coming over illegally is completely unacceptable. [29:37] And that's why we're looking with the new Home Secretary to ensure that nothing is off the table. [29:44] We will not accept this. [29:45] And I agree with you on that, [29:47] that it's wrong that the taxpayers are having to carry this burden. [29:51] But that's where moving them into MOD sites as well will help, [29:55] because it will reduce the cost. [29:57] But effectively, if we keep doing what we're doing with these increased deportations and removals, [30:03] those costs will go down. [30:04] It will act more as a deterrent. [30:06] And we're working hard on more returns agreements to get that done. [30:09] I just have to add, it is 12 months. [30:12] That can feel like a long time. [30:14] But after 14 years of the Conservatives, [30:17] in 2018, 400 crossed, over 150,000 since. [30:21] We are fixing a problem which is extremely serious. [30:26] And it doesn't happen overnight, but we're working hard at it. [30:29] But actually, Mike, just quickly on the numbers, [30:32] they're not going down, they're going up. [30:36] Well, the issue... [30:38] And you've been there for 14 months. [30:39] The issue with the numbers is when we, for example, [30:42] get a returns agreement with the French, [30:45] when the Germans change their laws, the Italians change their laws, [30:48] the French change their laws, which we've achieved, by the way, [30:51] when we've deported more than before, [30:54] it takes time to have a knock-on. [30:55] Let's look at the agreement that we've had with the French. [30:58] I think it's really important, Trevor. [31:00] So, at the moment, when someone comes over from France, [31:02] there's a high risk that they'll be immediately removed. [31:06] So, they won't spend that £10,000 in making that crossing, [31:11] because that's a lot of money to them. [31:13] So, it acts as a deterrent. [31:14] And it will start to work, but it takes time. [31:16] Do you accept that, Zia? [31:18] Not at all. [31:19] I'm sorry, you're just totally misrepresenting the facts of the British people. [31:23] You just claimed you're deporting more than before. [31:24] More than when? [31:25] When are you deporting more than... [31:27] Well, it's 14% increased this year to now. [31:29] You are... [31:30] How many have you deported in the first year? [31:31] We've had 35,000 deportations and removals. [31:35] OK. [31:36] So, that is one... [31:36] We've increased the processing by 50%. [31:38] That is one totally untrue statement [31:39] that is parroted repeatedly on the airwaves by Labour ministers. [31:43] That 35,000, let's talk about that. [31:45] 74% of those 35,000 are not deportations, i.e. enforced removals. [31:50] I said deportations and removals. [31:51] OK. [31:51] So, of the rest of those, of those 74%, half of those, [31:55] the government didn't know anything about. [31:57] They only found out they'd left after the fact. [31:59] So, don't misrepresent those as deportations, my friend. [32:02] It's totally... [32:03] You're taking the British people for mugs. [32:04] Absolutely not. [32:05] There are a million people in this country illegally today. [32:07] The difference between the removal of deportation is one goes in handcuffs... [32:10] Mike, there are more illegal migrants in this country, [32:13] dramatically more, than when Keir Starmer won that election, [32:16] promising to, quote, smash the gangs. [32:18] I want to say one other thing. [32:19] I want to say one other thing. [32:20] Just once, Ian. [32:20] Which is that there's been a lot of conversations [32:22] about the rights of lots of citizens of foreign countries, [32:26] about the rights of British citizens. [32:27] One of the most extraordinary things of my lifetime in politics [32:29] was lawyers for the government, for the Home Office, [32:33] around that hotel in Epping, [32:35] said on the record in court that the, quote, [32:38] the rights of the asylum seekers take precedence [32:41] over the rights of local residents. [32:42] Can we do... [32:43] British people are being treated like second-class citizens [32:45] in their own country, and it's got to stop. [32:48] At least it's not. [32:49] There's a really good question about the cost to the taxpayer [32:52] that I think is worthy of answer, [32:54] because it is a financial cost, but it's also a cost to communities. [32:56] I've got a constituency that's got two hotels [32:59] currently hosting asylum seekers, [33:01] and there's an emotional attachment to these hotels. [33:04] You know, these are places where people have their wedding reception, [33:07] where they have their child's christening party, [33:09] and I think all communities want their hotels back. [33:12] This is a direct result of some really rubbish decisions [33:14] that were made by the last Conservative government [33:16] to essentially stop processing applications. [33:19] One of the key deterrents... [33:20] So, sorry, just before you go back... [33:21] Before you take it wider, Lisa Smart, just to be absolutely clear, [33:26] when you say people want their hotels back... [33:28] Yeah. [33:29] ..you would close those asylum hotels, [33:33] and would you deport the people in them? [33:35] We have long called for the closing of asylum hotels [33:39] by processing the applications far more quickly. [33:42] It should take days or weeks, not months and years, [33:44] to process asylum applications, [33:46] and the decision should be right the first time. [33:49] One of the reasons the backlog is so long [33:50] is because of the amount of time it takes for appeals. [33:53] About half of appeals get granted, [33:55] so the decision needs to be right the first time. [33:58] This is costing far too much. [34:00] OK. [34:00] It's looking like the Home Office has lost control of this, [34:03] lost control of the board, has lost control of the process. [34:05] The process has increased by... [34:06] I haven't quite finished my point, actually, Mike. [34:08] One of the things you can do is take the processing out [34:12] to a dedicated unit outside the Home Office [34:15] to treat it with the urgency it deserves. [34:18] Hang on, there's a lady in the audience who has her hand up. [34:21] I can't quite see. [34:24] Yes, that's right. [34:25] Me? [34:25] Yeah, you. [34:26] Great. [34:26] Yeah, I wanted to ask... [34:28] I still don't think anyone has answered your question. [34:30] And you've talked about giving people back their hotels. [34:34] I want to know why that is more important [34:36] than the rights of the people living in them, [34:39] who, by the way, are having, like, a terrible time. [34:42] They're not living in the Ritz. [34:44] I support them as a charity worker. [34:46] They've got lice, they've got bedbugs, [34:47] they're not getting any money, they're not getting any food. [34:50] Why does that matter more than someone [34:52] who fancies a trip to a hotel? [34:54] And what are you all doing to actually make sure [34:57] that those people are safe in a UK [34:59] that is full of far-right violence directed against those people? [35:03] I also really want to know [35:05] if any of you can sleep at night [35:07] knowing that you are enabling a genocide [35:09] where 100,000 people haven't died? [35:10] Let's just deal with one question at a time. [35:12] And this is an interesting one. [35:14] This is one for you, Kieran Mullan, [35:16] because it was the Conservatives [35:17] who really started the use of asylum hotels. [35:21] How do you respond to that sense of anger? [35:24] Well, Trevor, I'll pick up directly on the question [35:26] that you posed earlier to Lisa. [35:28] No, I respond to our question. [35:29] I will, which is to say that if people are choosing, [35:33] if they're making a choice to come here from France, [35:36] France is not a war-torn country. [35:38] It is a civilised democracy [35:39] where they are perfectly able to secure access [35:42] to the rights that you would expect any asylum seeker [35:44] to be able to obtain. [35:45] So I don't accept, and my constituents don't accept [35:48] the moral... [35:49] Sorry. [35:50] They don't accept the moral framing that you're putting on it, [35:52] and I don't either. [35:53] Because, actually, if you're choosing to enter a country illegally [35:56] in a way that we don't support as a nation, [35:59] then I'm afraid that my sympathy for you [36:01] is not as high as it would otherwise be. [36:03] Now, our policy has always been to say, actually, [36:05] we should keep people in a safe third country [36:08] that we put forward as a Rwanda as a way to do that. [36:11] So, yes, we have a basic right to secure people's accommodation, [36:14] but, actually, people should not be making the crossing [36:16] in the first place from a safe third country. [36:18] I want to add one more voice to this conversation. [36:21] Ryan from Buckinghamshire, I think you've got a question for us. [36:25] Ryan. [36:27] Labour's promised to close all asylum hotels. [36:29] Where will these people be housed, [36:32] and is this alternative arrangement sustainable and ethical? [36:36] That's a key point. [36:38] You take them out of the asylum hotels, [36:39] and we're talking now, what, 40, 50? [36:42] 40,000 people. [36:43] Where are they going to sleep the night after? [36:46] It's really important that we do move people out of hotels. [36:49] It's an unacceptable solution to this, [36:52] and the public have made that really clear. [36:55] But, of course, I talked earlier about British values, [36:57] and that means that we do the right thing. [36:59] We're decent people. [37:00] We're all decent people. [37:01] I expect you're all decent people. [37:03] And that means that if people are travelling here illegally, [37:07] they should still be treated with that respect. [37:09] So, of course, we're now exploring MOD sites, [37:12] and I've no doubt that that accommodation will be adequate for those people. [37:17] I've slept in the accommodation myself for years, [37:20] as have many veterans. [37:21] So it's important that we do look after people, [37:23] but that doesn't mean we're not strong on this. [37:25] When you say MOD sites, you mean disused airfields and so forth. [37:31] You weren't sleeping in them when they'd been mothballed. [37:34] What is the accommodation these people should be in? [37:37] Are they in tents? [37:38] Are they in shipping containers? [37:40] Because these places have been abandoned. [37:41] Where are you going to put these 40,000 or 50,000 people? [37:44] So we're obviously new into this role. [37:47] So these decisions are still being made, [37:50] but we're exploring the sites. [37:52] I've slept in accommodations such as port-a-cabins [37:55] when I've been on operations as well, [37:58] and that's absolutely fine. [37:59] Probably not for a few years at a time, Mike. [37:59] And it won't be a few years at a time. [38:01] So the point about hotels is they're fine for a couple of nights, [38:03] but for a couple of years they're wholly inappropriate. [38:06] You've got families who've got no catering facilities. [38:09] Hotels aren't working for the communities, like mine, like I was saying, [38:11] but they're certainly not working for the people who are in them. [38:14] And so we do need to process people's applications much faster [38:17] so that those who've got a right to be here can get on with their life, [38:20] can get a job, can contribute, can integrate. [38:23] And those who don't have a right to be here should be sent to which we've got. [38:25] And take up social housing that we don't have the capacity for. [38:27] So, you know, we're talking about where they're in hotels. [38:30] If they're not hotels, they're being accommodated somewhere else. [38:32] And the Liberal Democrats' overall policy on this [38:34] is to have even easier for people to claim asylum in this country. [38:38] They want more safe and legal routes for people [38:40] to actually come and claim asylum. [38:41] Which would stop them having to get in a dinghy across the Channel. [38:44] No, it won't. It will make no difference at all. [38:45] Because if you have safe and legal routes... [38:47] We've got some safe and legal routes for Hong Kong, for Ukraine... [38:49] If I can just make the point, you have to set a cap to that. [38:52] And obviously, inevitably, there will be people that want to come [38:54] after you've set the cap. [38:56] And they will go back to crossing in the dinghies just like before. [38:59] And so, actually, I'll go back to the point I made earlier. [39:01] I really do understand that we didn't deliver this policy in government. [39:05] But the overall policy that's going to stop all of this, [39:07] stop people being in hotels, stop them being in social housing [39:10] that local people desperately want, is to have a deterrent [39:12] so people don't cross in the first place. [39:14] OK, Zia, I know that your party's view is that there needs to be deterrents [39:19] and speed up the returns and so on and so forth. [39:22] But there will be a period where people... [39:24] If you move people out of asylum hotels, they've got to be somewhere. [39:27] One of your colleagues has talked about putting people in tents and so on. [39:31] Yeah. [39:32] Is that what you want to do? [39:33] That's what the French do. [39:34] That's what the French do. [39:35] We've got to ask yourself why people are making that journey. [39:38] It's because we offer, the British people are being forced to pay [39:41] for a much better deal. [39:42] You know, you talk about offering safe and legal routes. [39:45] I said not to. [39:46] The Tory party offered safe and illegal routes, [39:49] which is why hundreds of thousands of people came here illegally. [39:52] There hasn't really been a proper answer, by the way, [39:54] to the question from the gentleman about veterans. [39:56] And I have personally spoken to veterans, [39:58] and this is where it gets to bond levels, [40:00] bond villain levels of wickedry. [40:03] One of the things that the current government does, [40:05] and the Tories did for 14 years, [40:07] they offer big contracts to these big contractors like Serco. [40:10] And Serco go in as a corporate landlord and say, [40:13] we are going to offer enormous rent premiums to local landlords. [40:18] I want to finish this point. [40:19] I know you think it's important, [40:20] but we're moving into a very different territory. [40:21] And veterans who serve this country, with respect... [40:24] It's not an answer to our question, I'm afraid. [40:25] ...that nobody else answered. [40:27] It's not an answer to our question. [40:29] Can we just... [40:29] We've been talking about people coming and going, [40:36] the impact it has on communities. [40:38] Now, before 2021, [40:39] the majority of people who came here were from the European Union. [40:42] It's interesting to hear Zia talking about copying the French. [40:45] But post-Brexit, [40:47] something like nine or ten of all migrants [40:50] have been from non-EU countries. [40:52] Mostly, that's from countries like India, Nigeria and Pakistan. [40:59] Tavinder from Bombsgrove has a question that relates to that point. [41:04] Tavinder. [41:04] I just want to know, [41:05] does legal immigration benefit the UK? [41:09] And their contribution, [41:12] are they taking more or contributing more? [41:18] Lisa. [41:19] So, I think this is a great question. [41:22] And the UK has historically benefited from migration. [41:25] I'm here because of migration, [41:27] and I think lots of people in this room are. [41:29] And it's not just economically that we've benefited, [41:31] it's also culturally. [41:32] But I think even the most liberal, progressive person [41:36] thinks that we need a fair system [41:38] where the rules are enforced properly. [41:41] And that's not what we've had for the last few years. [41:44] Zia, do you agree with that? [41:46] Well, again, you know, [41:47] my parents came in in the early 1980s. [41:50] My father had just qualified as a medical doctor. [41:52] They didn't have much of their name [41:53] other than that medical degree. [41:55] Between my father and my mum, who's a nurse, [41:58] they have given more than half a century of service [42:00] to the NHS between them. [42:02] So, no one knows more [42:03] about the invaluable contribution immigrants have made [42:06] and can make to this country than I. [42:09] But I will say this, [42:10] this country is now overwhelmed. [42:12] Our borders are being overrun. [42:14] And if you ask most British people, [42:16] you know, with respect, Trevor, [42:17] you said it's dividing the nation. [42:18] I disagree with that. [42:19] I think people are united now. [42:21] We've had too much migration. [42:22] We haven't had border security. [42:24] And what that is driving [42:25] is this sense amongst British people [42:27] that they are being taken for mugs. [42:29] They are being asked to pay for lives of leisure [42:31] for people who first acted upon coming to this country [42:35] was to break our laws. [42:37] Well, with respect, [42:37] my own Doge team has found [42:39] asylum seekers and illegal migrants [42:41] being taken to the circus at the taxpayers' time. [42:43] I'm not joking. [42:44] Trips to the cinema, [42:45] Domino's pizza, [42:46] tens of thousands of pounds of McDonald's, [42:47] free TV licenses. [42:49] All of this is on the record. [42:51] All of this is on the record. [42:52] And British people, [42:53] British people are struggling to make ends meet. [42:55] Can I ask Mike Tapp, [42:57] who is in charge of this, [42:59] is that true? [43:01] Asylum seekers are illegal immigrants [43:03] being taken to the circus? [43:05] Look, I'm a bit miffed [43:07] by this Doge set-up in Kent. [43:09] It's been an absolute mess. [43:10] It means that they're spending [43:12] on vital community assets. [43:13] Answer the question, Mike. [43:14] Have illegal migrants been taken to the circus [43:16] at the taxpayer expense? [43:17] That's something that I have not seen. [43:19] And, of course, [43:20] if that sort of thing is happening, [43:22] then it's a little bit odd. [43:23] And, you know, [43:24] there's no reason why [43:25] we can't look into that. [43:26] But when we come back [43:27] to the question here [43:28] around immigrants [43:29] and whether they are, you know, [43:32] a net benefit to this nation, [43:33] there's no doubt [43:34] that the contribution [43:36] from migrants to this country [43:38] is valuable. [43:39] We know that within the NHS [43:41] and in many jobs. [43:42] But the fact is, [43:43] we did have one million [43:44] coming into the country [43:46] under the Conservatives. [43:47] Now, we've managed to cut that [43:49] by 300,000. [43:50] We've halved the working visas. [43:52] We're increasing the requirements [43:53] to degree level. [43:55] We're increasing the salary requirements [43:57] to ensure that we're... [43:59] The jobs are open for British people [44:01] because we've got to put [44:02] British workers first [44:05] and then fill the gaps [44:06] with foreign workers. [44:07] That's what we're striving to do [44:08] and that's what we'll deliver. [44:09] Mike Bench is the NHS [44:10] and he's absolutely right to do so [44:12] because nowhere more can you see [44:14] the benefits that immigrants [44:16] have brought to our country [44:17] than the NHS and the care sector. [44:19] What we're really keen to see, actually, [44:21] is that the government [44:22] has a proper look [44:23] at workforce planning [44:24] so that we can train, retain [44:26] and properly value [44:27] nurses, care workers. [44:29] We should pay care workers properly [44:30] with a carer's minimum wage [44:31] so that we don't need [44:33] to invite other people to come here [44:35] to work in our health [44:36] and care sector. [44:37] And I think the NHS [44:39] is a good example [44:40] but I think what you have to do [44:41] sometimes is take a step back [44:42] and look at the overall impact [44:43] on the country. [44:44] And I think there's kind of been [44:45] an expert view for a long time [44:47] now from the Treasury [44:48] and from economists [44:49] that the overall net migration [44:51] is just a good thing. [44:52] It helps our economy grow. [44:53] And as Zia mentioned, [44:55] actually, future progressions [44:56] still for our economy to grow [44:57] do rely on immigration. [44:59] But actually, [45:00] it's the sort of immigration [45:01] that you're getting. [45:02] Is it high-skilled, [45:03] high-valued people [45:05] that are coming in? [45:05] And actually, [45:06] those were the things [45:06] that we set out to achieve [45:07] but as I said, [45:08] we didn't get that right. [45:09] It wasn't the right people [45:11] that came over. [45:13] But when you talk [45:13] about the volume [45:14] and you take a step back, [45:15] actually, [45:15] immigration isn't just [45:16] about the numbers. [45:17] It isn't just about our economy. [45:19] It's actually whether we have [45:20] a kind of cohesive nature [45:21] with one shared culture. [45:23] I have spent time [45:25] in communities [45:26] where people don't feel [45:27] like they recognise [45:28] their neighbours [45:28] and they're from all sorts [45:29] of different areas. [45:30] We're in Birmingham [45:30] where people will know, [45:31] actually, [45:32] I grew up in Birmingham [45:33] and you can't reasonably say [45:35] that immigration has been [45:36] fully integrated in Birmingham. [45:37] There are parts of Birmingham [45:38] that are very unintegrated. [45:41] So I think you have to think [45:42] about both the economy [45:43] and the social fabric [45:45] of a country. [45:45] I'd like to come back [45:46] to you, Tavinder. [45:48] The panel is basically saying [45:50] that they do think [45:52] that immigration, [45:54] particularly legal immigration, [45:55] has value. [45:57] But do you think [45:58] that you're hearing [45:59] enough of a definition [46:01] of what's of value [46:02] and what's not of value? [46:03] No, because value [46:04] is, like the lady said, [46:08] it's not just financial. [46:10] It is all sorts of things [46:12] and we can live together. [46:14] The Reform Party [46:15] just make it sound like [46:16] these monsters are coming in [46:19] and destroying the whole country. [46:22] Yeah, and there might be [46:23] a very small minority of that, [46:24] but not as much [46:26] as they're making out. [46:27] Yeah. [46:28] The senior surgeon [46:29] who did my job [46:29] shooting the operation [46:30] was born overseas. [46:32] When you say monsters, [46:33] what are you talking about, [46:34] Tavinder? [46:34] I mean, the way [46:35] they keep on talking [46:35] about the boats coming over. [46:38] No-one wants to see that [46:40] for their sake [46:42] as well as ours. [46:43] But, sir, can I just say, [46:44] you're from Birmingham. [46:45] I don't think you can honestly say [46:45] that this feature hasn't been well integrated. [46:46] Excuse me, I just want to come back [46:47] to our audience [46:48] because there's a very, [46:49] someone I think has [46:50] a very relevant question [46:52] to the point Tavinder's just made. [46:54] I want to hear from James [46:55] from Derbyshire. [46:57] James. [46:58] Yeah, my point is [46:59] around the two young children [47:01] I have at home. [47:03] And my concern [47:05] is their future [47:06] and only their future. [47:08] So how can we ensure [47:09] that immigration [47:10] is not only addressed [47:11] as you're all saying [47:12] it's going to be addressed, [47:13] but it's sustained [47:14] and controlled moving forward [47:15] in a way that doesn't diminish [47:17] the next generation, [47:19] their opportunity [47:19] and their right [47:21] to build a future. [47:23] Kieran, [47:25] this is what gets to the heart [47:27] of, I think, [47:28] what is driving [47:29] many people's passion here, [47:31] the feeling that [47:32] their next generation [47:34] are either being [47:35] deprived of opportunities [47:37] or, in some cases, [47:38] by the way, [47:39] in some of the messages [47:41] that we've had, [47:42] they're afraid [47:43] for their children, [47:44] particularly young women. [47:46] Yeah, the first major change [47:48] that we put forward [47:49] as a party [47:50] that we would implement [47:50] if we were to get back [47:52] into power [47:52] is that actually [47:53] we'll put parliament [47:54] in charge [47:54] in determining [47:55] the levels of migration [47:56] to this country [47:57] so that all of your MPs, [47:58] whether in Birmingham [47:59] or any other part [48:00] of the country, [48:00] are directly accountable [48:01] for setting that level. [48:03] And they'll have to take [48:03] into account [48:04] all these things [48:04] we talked about, [48:05] what we need in our workforce, [48:07] what we can accommodate [48:07] in terms of housing, [48:08] and that's, I think, [48:09] the long-term way [48:10] in which we make politicians [48:12] more accountable [48:12] to all of you [48:13] on this issue. [48:15] And I think [48:15] you're right [48:16] to raise concerns [48:17] about the next generation [48:17] if we don't get that right. [48:19] Because actually [48:20] there's an increasing [48:21] body of evidence [48:21] that does highlight [48:22] that particularly [48:23] those on lower incomes, [48:24] on lower wages, [48:26] large amounts [48:26] of low-skilled migration [48:28] can depress wages [48:30] for people [48:31] and make it harder [48:31] for them to earn [48:32] a decent living. [48:33] Actually, for our economy, [48:34] you want your children [48:35] to have job opportunities [48:37] in a thriving [48:37] and growing economy. [48:38] Actually, [48:39] the biggest challenge [48:39] in our economy [48:40] is productivity, [48:41] that our businesses [48:42] don't invest [48:42] in becoming more efficient. [48:43] Again, labour, [48:45] mass low-skilled labour [48:47] discourages businesses [48:48] from investing [48:48] in productivity. [48:48] Just very briefly, [48:49] Lisa, [48:50] do you understand [48:51] the anxiety [48:52] of somebody like James [48:54] or some of the people [48:56] who have written in [48:56] saying they worry [48:58] about their daughters [48:59] going past [49:00] some of these [49:00] asylum hotels [49:01] and so on? [49:02] I think it's the job [49:03] of parents to worry [49:04] about their children [49:05] wherever they're walking past. [49:06] I don't think [49:07] there's any evidence [49:09] that asylum hotels [49:10] are less safe [49:11] than any other hotels. [49:12] But it's a job [49:13] of politicians [49:13] to do something [49:14] about it, [49:14] isn't it? [49:15] So it's a job [49:15] of politicians, [49:16] absolutely, [49:17] to talk about [49:18] a vision for the future [49:20] and I think sometimes [49:20] we can get a bit depressed [49:22] and possibly this evening [49:23] is one of the examples [49:24] of that. [49:25] But where I feel [49:26] most optimistic [49:27] is when I go into schools [49:28] and when I hear from kids [49:29] because they've got [49:29] a load of the answers [49:30] about how we fix [49:31] a lot of the problems [49:32] we face. [49:33] I am really proud [49:34] of our country [49:34] and I'm really proud [49:35] of the patriotism [49:36] I see in our country. [49:37] Never more so [49:38] in the classrooms [49:39] of the kids [49:39] who are welcoming [49:40] some of the new arrivals [49:41] of the children [49:42] staying in one [49:42] of the asylum hotels [49:44] because kids just [49:44] get on with it, [49:45] they cut through [49:46] all of this [49:47] and they welcome children [49:49] like the wonderful [49:49] human beings they are. [49:51] I think people's fears [49:52] right now are well founded. [49:53] Let's talk about, [49:54] you know, [49:54] the gentleman used [49:55] the word monsters. [49:56] Four Iranian men [49:57] crossed the English Channel [49:58] illegally by boat [49:59] and our brilliant [50:00] security services [50:01] successfully foiled [50:03] a terrorist attack. [50:04] Successfully [50:05] foiled a terrorist attack [50:06] that was being [50:06] perpetrated [50:07] by four Iranian men [50:09] and with respect [50:09] when we talk about [50:10] monsters, [50:11] how many British people [50:12] need to be raped [50:13] or murdered [50:14] by people who came [50:14] to the country illegally? [50:16] What is that? [50:16] What is the acceptable number? [50:18] No, genuinely, [50:18] what is the acceptable number? [50:20] Because in our view, [50:21] the acceptable number [50:22] is zero. [50:22] Because every single [50:23] one of those tragedies [50:24] is directly downstream [50:25] from appalling [50:26] government policy [50:28] from people like [50:29] the Tories [50:29] and the government [50:30] who are unwilling [50:31] and unable [50:32] to defend [50:32] and secure our borders. [50:33] Thank you, Zia. [50:33] You've made that point [50:34] before. [50:34] Mike Tapp. [50:36] One rape, [50:38] one sexual assault [50:38] is too many. [50:41] But the majority [50:42] of those that come over [50:43] are not rapists [50:44] and sexual assaulters. [50:46] But it's important... [50:48] Well, of course they're not. [50:49] It's important... [50:49] Well, you don't know that. [50:49] I'm not answering [50:51] your questions here. [50:52] I'm answering [50:52] the audience questions. [50:53] You actually don't know that. [50:54] It's important [50:55] that we secure the borders. [50:56] You're choosing [50:56] to let people [50:56] into the country [50:57] about who you know nothing. [50:58] It's important [50:58] that we secure the borders [50:59] and stop this illegal migration. [51:02] That is our top priority [51:04] and nothing is off the table here [51:06] to ensure that this stops. [51:07] Why are more people [51:07] crossing illegally [51:08] than when Keir Starmer [51:09] took power? [51:10] You'd have to explain that. [51:11] If you're going [51:11] further and faster, [51:12] further and faster [51:13] in context of what has happened [51:14] is more people arriving. [51:15] So you might want [51:16] to reconsider that stuff. [51:17] Well, I'm more than happy [51:18] to go into that. [51:19] Go into it. [51:20] Why are more people [51:21] arriving now [51:21] than when you came into office? [51:24] We've inherited open borders. [51:25] You didn't inherit [51:25] more than you've got now. [51:28] There are more people [51:29] crossing now. [51:30] If you'll allow me [51:31] to answer the question. [51:32] We've inherited open borders, [51:33] which means it's not a quick fix. [51:35] When you've inherited [51:35] a system that had [51:36] 150,000 crossing [51:38] in just three or four years, [51:40] it's unacceptable. [51:42] So the measures [51:42] we're putting in place [51:43] with the record deportations, [51:45] the deals with the French, [51:46] the returns agreements [51:48] that are getting in place. [51:49] And the fact that [51:50] nothing is off the table [51:51] and we'll go hard on this. [51:52] It's getting worse, Mike. [51:53] We have only a few minutes later [51:55] and I want to come to [51:56] one last question [51:57] from Oliver from Cheltenham. [51:59] Where is Oliver? [52:01] Oliver here is on the front row. [52:02] Go ahead. [52:03] Who's most responsible [52:04] for the Labour Party [52:05] changing their tune [52:07] on immigration? [52:08] Donald Trump, [52:09] Elon Musk [52:10] or Nigel Farage? [52:15] Mike, Tab, [52:16] you've gone all tough, right? [52:18] Who's dragged you [52:20] in this direction? [52:20] You're welcome [52:21] to look through [52:22] my social media [52:22] from years ago [52:24] and I've been saying [52:24] the same thing. [52:25] I've said it on the doors [52:26] for years in Dover and Dill [52:27] and I'll continue [52:28] to say it now. [52:29] And look back [52:30] at Keir Starmer's campaign [52:31] for the election [52:31] and he was saying [52:32] exactly the same thing. [52:33] No, he was not. [52:34] He was calling people [52:34] who raised concerns [52:35] about immigration racist. [52:37] That's literally what he did. [52:38] We are very clear [52:39] that securing the borders [52:40] and having an immigration system [52:42] that functions, [52:42] that's fair, [52:43] that serves the people [52:44] of the country [52:44] is a top priority. [52:45] It has been since [52:46] the general election. [52:48] It was in the manifesto. [52:49] He campaigned [52:50] for the continuation [52:52] of free movement. [52:53] Keir Starmer advocated [52:54] that we carry on [52:55] with free movement. [52:56] He described all immigration [52:57] policy as inherently racist [52:59] and he and Danu [53:00] Home Secretary [53:01] both campaigned [53:03] against the deportation [53:04] of convicted criminals [53:05] from this country. [53:06] So you're absolutely right, [53:07] sir, [53:07] in pointing out [53:08] the complete vault face. [53:09] And actually, [53:10] is there any surprise [53:10] because it isn't just [53:11] on this issue, [53:12] whether it's taxing [53:14] national insurance [53:15] for employees... [53:16] OK, no, [53:16] we're talking immigration [53:17] tonight. [53:18] You don't need to go [53:18] through the whole list. [53:19] Lisa Smart. [53:20] Lisa Smart. [53:21] I have zero to do [53:22] with the Labour Party's [53:23] policy platform, [53:25] but I would say [53:26] that people often [53:26] when they're faced [53:27] with the choice [53:28] of the real thing [53:29] or a tribute act, [53:31] they often go [53:32] for the real thing. [53:33] And I think that's [53:34] what some parties [53:35] should give a little [53:35] bit of thought to. [53:36] Can I respond to that? [53:37] Yeah. [53:37] Nigel Farage claims [53:39] to be a patriot. [53:40] This guy's done nothing [53:41] for this country [53:42] and he'll do nothing for this country. [53:43] I thought you were going [53:44] to respond to her [53:44] rather than have a go [53:45] at Nigel Farage. [53:46] I think this is vital. [53:48] Let's just go to, [53:49] in your words, [53:50] Lisa, [53:50] the real thing. [53:52] Are you claiming credit [53:54] for Labour's change [53:56] of direction [53:57] as Oliver's [54:00] said it at? [54:01] Keir Starmer [54:01] is a man who believes [54:02] in nothing [54:03] other than maximising [54:04] his own power. [54:05] This is a man [54:05] who openly said [54:06] that if you are concerned [54:07] about immigration [54:08] and you raise those concerns, [54:09] you are racist. [54:10] You can look that up yourself. [54:11] Then he gave a speech, [54:12] Trevor. [54:13] He gave a speech [54:13] where he talked about [54:15] a country of strangers, [54:16] a nation of strangers [54:17] and then he U-turned [54:18] on that [54:19] because he got [54:19] so much blowback. [54:20] This is a man [54:21] who is utterly rudderless. [54:22] He has no direction. [54:24] He's now brought, [54:24] we've now got [54:25] a new Home Secretary, [54:26] a thousand illegal migrants [54:27] crossed on her first day [54:28] and that same, [54:29] that same Home Secretary, [54:31] by the way, [54:31] there's a video [54:32] you can look at [54:32] on social media [54:33] where she talks about [54:34] white males waving [54:36] the English flag. [54:37] I've got to give [54:38] Mike Tapp a choke. [54:38] And she was condemning that. [54:40] I want to give Mike Tapp a choke. [54:41] That is the current Home Secretary, [54:41] Trevor, of this country. [54:42] Okay, you've made your point. [54:43] I want to give [54:44] Mike Tapp a chance [54:45] to stick up for his boss. [54:47] It's a slur. [54:49] It's true. [54:50] If you look at [54:50] the full video [54:51] in context, [54:51] that's not right. [54:52] Look, [54:53] Siobhanah Mahmood, [54:53] the current Home Secretary, [54:55] was the Justice Secretary [54:56] beforehand [54:57] and during that period, [54:59] she alone [54:59] increased the deportations [55:01] of foreign national offenders. [55:03] That's what she stands for. [55:05] She's going to be very hard. [55:06] You'll see it [55:07] and reformer [55:07] are going to hate it [55:08] when we secure the borders [55:09] because they'll have [55:09] nothing to campaign with. [55:11] Just to be clear, [55:12] though, [55:14] Mike Tapp, [55:16] a year ago, [55:17] Labour spokespeople [55:18] wouldn't come into our studio [55:20] and say, [55:21] we're going to detain [55:22] and deport, [55:23] which is what the Prime Minister [55:25] has said in the last few weeks. [55:26] They wouldn't have been talking [55:27] about introducing ID cards. [55:30] They wouldn't have been talking [55:31] about essentially [55:33] turning people back [55:35] in the channel. [55:36] Are you saying [55:37] that Labour [55:37] in this period [55:39] in government [55:39] hasn't changed [55:40] its position at all? [55:42] I can speak for myself. [55:43] No, no, no. [55:44] You're here speaking [55:45] for your party. [55:46] I can tell you very clearly [55:47] that I've held [55:48] these positions for years [55:49] and I'll go on [55:50] to the Labour Party. [55:50] No, quickly, [55:52] more widely, [55:52] if you look at the manifesto, [55:53] all of this [55:54] was in the manifesto [55:55] to secure the borders. [55:56] We've had five immigration bills [55:57] in five years. [55:58] The Tories and Labour [55:59] have both been on a journey [56:00] over this period. [56:02] Well, we have pretty much [56:04] exhausted our time [56:05] this evening [56:06] but we'd like you [56:07] to stay with us [56:08] because my colleague [56:09] Sarah-Jane Mee [56:10] is here in Birmingham [56:11] and she's going to bring you [56:12] expert analysis [56:13] and interviews [56:14] on the immigration debate. [56:16] That's called [56:17] Immigration Debate, [56:18] The Verdict. [56:19] And that will be [56:20] all you need to know. [56:21] Right now, [56:22] stay with Sky News. [56:24] Sarah-Jane, [56:25] over to you. [56:26] Trump and Farad [56:27] are the same [56:28] type of a vaccine. [56:30] I'm very proud of myself [56:32] and I'm very proud [56:33] of Nigel. [56:34] I'm very proud of myself [56:35] and very proud of Nigel. [56:37] Well, thank you [56:38] very much, Trevor. [56:39] There we have it, [56:40] a very lively hour [56:42] from our invited guests [56:43] and the audience [56:44] here in Birmingham [56:45] tonight. [56:46] Over the next 60 minutes, [56:47] we're going to get [56:48] reaction from our experts [56:50] and analyse the data [56:51] behind the arguments [56:52] that were set out [56:53] there tonight [56:54] and we'll be discussing [56:55] the changing mood [56:56] in the country [56:57] that has made immigration [56:58] the burning topic [57:00] of the summer. [57:02] Well, joining me now, [57:03] Sky's deputy political editor, [57:05] Sam Coates [57:05] and our social affairs [57:06] correspondent, [57:07] Becky Johnson, [57:08] they are with me here [57:09] for a debrief [57:10] because this is a topic [57:12] that we have been following [57:13] for months, [57:14] if not years, [57:15] here on Sky News [57:17] and you were both [57:17] watching that very closely. [57:19] I'll come to you first, [57:20] Sam. [57:20] What jumped out [57:21] for you tonight [57:22] from what was discussed? [57:23] Well, first of all, [57:24] wasn't that a fascinating [57:25] hour? [57:26] Across it, [57:27] a number of things [57:27] absolutely leapt out. [57:28] First of all, [57:30] there are people [57:30] with absolutely [57:31] passionate views [57:32] about this [57:33] but not all [57:33] because they want [57:34] to clamp down [57:36] on migration [57:36] or to deal with it. [57:37] What you heard [57:38] was a complete spectrum [57:39] from our audience [57:40] and I thought [57:40] they were in many ways [57:41] the stars of the show [57:42] today. [57:43] You heard very passionate [57:44] arguments in favour [57:46] of helping the people [57:47] who are living [57:48] at the moment [57:48] in those asylum hotels, [57:50] giving them more [57:51] as well as people [57:52] who wonder [57:52] what they're going to do [57:53] for the next generation. [57:55] Now, [57:56] when trying to assess [57:57] debates like that, [57:58] when looking at the panel [57:59] from across the political spectrum, [58:01] often I find it easiest [58:02] to sort of work out [58:03] where they agree [58:04] and then it really highlights [58:06] where they disagree. [58:06] And there are a couple of moments, [58:08] there are a couple of themes [58:08] where they do agree. [58:10] So if you listen to them, [58:11] all four of our politicians, [58:13] from the Liberal Democrats [58:14] kind of at one end [58:15] of the spectrum [58:15] through to Reform UK [58:17] on the other, [58:18] agreed that immigration [58:20] can bring benefits. [58:22] Even Zia Youssef [58:23] from Reform UK [58:24] was explaining [58:25] how between them [58:26] his parents had given [58:27] over half a century [58:29] to the NHS. [58:31] Where they also agreed [58:32] was that the system [58:33] that we have right now [58:35] is out of control. [58:37] Lisa Smart [58:37] for the Liberal Democrats [58:38] was very clear [58:39] that the system is broken. [58:43] But I think that, SGA, [58:45] is basically where [58:46] the agreement broadly ended. [58:50] If you were to look [58:51] at the moment [58:52] of biggest disagreement, [58:53] there was almost a sharp [58:54] intake of breath [58:55] from the other three [58:57] panel members [58:58] when Zia Youssef [58:59] started talking about [59:01] the men of fighting age [59:02] who have come over here [59:04] using language [59:05] that Mike Tapp, [59:06] the Labour minister, [59:07] pretty quickly jumped on [59:09] and condemned. [59:10] But you heard there [59:11] him passionately, [59:13] not for the first time [59:14] it has to be said, [59:15] talking about [59:17] the men from fighting age [59:18] from countries [59:19] like Afghanistan [59:20] and clearly trying [59:21] to tap into, [59:23] critics would say, [59:24] inflame views [59:26] on migration. [59:27] And that was where [59:29] I felt like [59:30] Kieran Mullen [59:30] from the Tories [59:31] and Mike Tapp [59:32] were trying to draw [59:34] a dividing line. [59:34] But ultimately, [59:36] the dividing lines [59:37] that they wanted to draw [59:38] were most of all [59:39] on language, [59:40] not policy. [59:41] And there was [59:42] a sort of discomfort [59:43] about solutions. [59:45] And if I could channel [59:46] a frustration [59:48] of the audience, [59:50] it was that [59:50] I don't think [59:51] really, [59:52] particularly amongst [59:53] the Tories [59:54] and Labour [59:54] and Liberal Democrats, [59:55] they came away [59:56] completely clear [59:57] what they're going [59:58] to do about it. [59:59] And I think [1:00:00] it is the lack [1:00:01] of clarity [1:00:02] that you could [1:00:02] sometimes sense [1:00:04] in that debate [1:00:05] that I think [1:00:06] some in the audience [1:00:07] and some at home [1:00:07] will find frustrating. [1:00:08] Yeah. [1:00:09] Becky, [1:00:09] as Sam pointed out, [1:00:10] one thing that came [1:00:11] across crystal clear [1:00:12] was the passion [1:00:13] that people have [1:00:14] about immigration. [1:00:15] As Sam's been telling [1:00:16] us all day here [1:00:17] on Sky News, [1:00:17] it's now people's [1:00:18] number one concern [1:00:19] over the economy [1:00:20] for the first time [1:00:20] since Brexit. [1:00:22] And that debate [1:00:22] also showed [1:00:24] how nuanced [1:00:24] this issue [1:00:26] is for people. [1:00:28] It's not us [1:00:29] and them, [1:00:29] it's not against [1:00:30] it or for it. [1:00:31] People have their [1:00:33] views on immigration [1:00:34] for so many [1:00:35] different reasons [1:00:35] and that's something [1:00:36] that you've found [1:00:37] travelling up and down [1:00:38] the country [1:00:38] for the last few months [1:00:39] talking to people [1:00:40] in their communities [1:00:41] about what's going on. [1:00:42] It was a really [1:00:43] passionate debate [1:00:44] and I agree with Sam, [1:00:45] the audience [1:00:46] were the stars [1:00:47] and two things [1:00:48] really struck me [1:00:49] because there are [1:00:50] two things [1:00:50] that I find [1:00:51] out in the towns [1:00:53] and cities [1:00:53] around the country [1:00:55] that I visit. [1:00:56] One, [1:00:56] the emotion [1:00:57] with which people [1:00:58] speak about [1:00:59] this issue [1:00:59] and two, [1:01:00] you could see [1:01:01] on the faces [1:01:02] of the audience [1:01:03] that they just [1:01:04] didn't feel [1:01:05] like the politicians [1:01:06] were really [1:01:07] answering their questions. [1:01:08] And, you know, [1:01:09] I've been hearing [1:01:10] for years [1:01:11] concern about immigration [1:01:12] and that has been [1:01:13] building now [1:01:14] and very much, [1:01:15] you know, [1:01:15] as the polling [1:01:16] that we've had today [1:01:17] shows, [1:01:17] it is the thing [1:01:18] that people want [1:01:19] to talk about [1:01:20] in this country. [1:01:21] They talk about it [1:01:22] with emotion [1:01:22] and they don't think [1:01:23] politicians have [1:01:24] the answers [1:01:25] and, you know, [1:01:25] I think that is in part [1:01:26] why we're seeing [1:01:27] England flags [1:01:28] appearing [1:01:28] and union flags [1:01:29] appearing. [1:01:29] People are like, [1:01:30] listen to us, [1:01:31] we want change. [1:01:32] And, you know, [1:01:33] a lot of the audience [1:01:33] members, [1:01:34] you could tell, [1:01:34] some of them even said, [1:01:36] you haven't answered [1:01:36] my question. [1:01:37] But there was [1:01:38] the emotion there. [1:01:38] And I thought, [1:01:39] particularly the question [1:01:40] from the father [1:01:41] who said [1:01:41] that he fears [1:01:43] for his children [1:01:44] because of the mass [1:01:46] immigration [1:01:46] that we've seen, [1:01:47] you know, [1:01:48] really visibly, [1:01:49] actually, [1:01:49] on our streets [1:01:50] in the last, [1:01:51] in very recent years. [1:01:53] And, you know, [1:01:54] it's very hard [1:01:55] for politicians [1:01:57] to look at somebody [1:01:57] like that [1:01:58] and say that [1:01:59] the country [1:01:59] isn't going to change [1:02:00] as a consequence [1:02:01] of millions of people [1:02:04] coming into the country [1:02:05] in quite a short [1:02:06] space of time. [1:02:07] Of course, [1:02:07] the country [1:02:08] is going to change. [1:02:10] And I don't think [1:02:10] any of the politicians [1:02:11] really had any words [1:02:13] that might reassure [1:02:14] somebody who worries [1:02:15] about how the country [1:02:16] is going to change [1:02:17] for their children [1:02:18] as a result. [1:02:19] But, of course, [1:02:19] we also heard people [1:02:21] saying, you know, [1:02:22] the benefits [1:02:23] that migrants bring. [1:02:24] And I think [1:02:24] some of the audience [1:02:25] members were really [1:02:26] strong on that. [1:02:27] And, you know, [1:02:28] in this heated debate, [1:02:30] we cannot forget [1:02:31] that migrants [1:02:32] do contribute [1:02:33] to this country, [1:02:34] particularly those [1:02:35] working in, [1:02:35] for example, [1:02:36] the health service. [1:02:37] And that mustn't [1:02:38] be forgotten [1:02:38] despite the emotion [1:02:39] and the anger [1:02:41] at the very large [1:02:42] numbers of people [1:02:42] that are coming in. [1:02:43] Something else [1:02:44] that was also agreed [1:02:44] on by the panel [1:02:46] with Trevor tonight, [1:02:48] Sam, [1:02:48] was that the current [1:02:49] system [1:02:50] for asylum seekers [1:02:52] is broken. [1:02:53] We talk about [1:02:53] the backlog [1:02:54] of asylum claims [1:02:56] and it was referenced [1:02:56] there in that debate [1:02:57] that it's come [1:02:58] to a grinding halt [1:02:59] in recent years. [1:03:01] Why is that? [1:03:03] So it's partly [1:03:04] that it is time-consuming [1:03:05] and difficult [1:03:06] to process them. [1:03:07] It's partly because [1:03:08] there are a lot [1:03:09] of legal challenges [1:03:10] and government [1:03:11] at the moment, [1:03:12] Tories to a certain [1:03:12] extent in the past [1:03:13] and now are talking [1:03:14] about maybe tweaking [1:03:15] the law, [1:03:17] Tories and Reform UK [1:03:21] arguing that they [1:03:22] need to pull out [1:03:23] of the European Convention [1:03:23] of Human Rights. [1:03:24] But you talk about [1:03:26] a system that's broken. [1:03:28] I think certainly [1:03:29] amongst the Tories, [1:03:30] the Labour Party [1:03:31] and Reform UK, [1:03:32] there is broad agreement [1:03:34] there needs to be [1:03:34] some kind of deterrent [1:03:35] if we are to stop [1:03:36] people coming. [1:03:37] That's the way [1:03:37] rather than necessarily [1:03:39] ships in the channel [1:03:41] from the Navy. [1:03:41] But precisely how [1:03:44] a deterrent works, [1:03:45] well, nobody's got [1:03:45] any idea because [1:03:46] it's never worked. [1:03:47] We've never come up. [1:03:48] We've never even tried [1:03:49] a system that might [1:03:51] yet be workable. [1:03:52] The Tories talked [1:03:52] about Rwanda [1:03:53] but didn't implement it. [1:03:54] Some people think [1:03:55] it was never possible. [1:03:56] Labour are looking [1:03:57] at this one-in-one-out [1:03:58] system for people [1:03:59] coming in over [1:04:00] from France. [1:04:00] That hasn't been implemented. [1:04:03] Deterrent remains... [1:04:03] Well, we've had three people [1:04:04] die in the channel [1:04:05] in the last 24 hours. [1:04:06] As Becky and I [1:04:07] commented during that debate [1:04:08] when we were watching it, [1:04:09] you know, [1:04:09] if that's not a deterrent [1:04:11] for people, [1:04:11] you sort of wonder [1:04:12] well, what is? [1:04:13] But people are looking [1:04:14] for answers [1:04:14] but in a sense [1:04:15] that there's no handbook. [1:04:17] There is no answer [1:04:18] to these questions [1:04:20] that anybody has [1:04:21] that is tried [1:04:22] and tested [1:04:22] that is in any way [1:04:26] something that [1:04:27] any of the people [1:04:28] around the table [1:04:29] could point to. [1:04:29] There is just [1:04:30] harder language, [1:04:31] harder rhetoric [1:04:31] and maybe that lands better [1:04:32] but, you know, [1:04:34] that's why it's [1:04:35] such a frustrating topic [1:04:36] for people [1:04:37] because there isn't [1:04:38] a lever to be pulled. [1:04:39] Yeah, not just [1:04:39] a frustrating topic [1:04:40] in the UK [1:04:41] for other countries [1:04:42] in Europe [1:04:42] as well experiencing [1:04:43] this problem [1:04:44] and these kind of numbers. [1:04:45] No politicians [1:04:46] in other countries [1:04:46] seem to have the answers. [1:04:48] We are not alone [1:04:49] in that respect. [1:04:49] Let's go across now [1:04:50] to our economics [1:04:51] and data editor, [1:04:52] Ed Conway, [1:04:53] who was watching [1:04:54] that debate [1:04:55] and has been taking [1:04:56] and has been taking [1:04:56] a look at some [1:04:58] of the numbers [1:04:58] that have contributed [1:04:59] to this topic. [1:05:01] Yeah, really interesting, [1:05:03] SJ. [1:05:03] Actually, just going [1:05:04] through some of the topics [1:05:05] that just came up [1:05:06] during that debate. [1:05:07] I mean, one of them, [1:05:08] Zia Yusuf, [1:05:09] talking a number of times [1:05:10] about there being [1:05:11] a million illegal immigrants [1:05:13] in this country. [1:05:15] Is that number right? [1:05:16] Well, you know, [1:05:16] the short answer [1:05:17] is no-one knows. [1:05:18] You know, there is [1:05:18] no official estimate. [1:05:19] I mean, how could there be [1:05:20] of how many people [1:05:21] are here illegally? [1:05:23] But there have been [1:05:23] some attempts at it. [1:05:25] And the one that I think [1:05:26] he was referring to [1:05:27] was probably this [1:05:28] from Pew, [1:05:28] which is a kind of [1:05:29] an American research [1:05:30] organisation, [1:05:31] which estimated [1:05:32] back in 2017 [1:05:35] that in the UK [1:05:36] you were talking [1:05:37] about potentially [1:05:38] 800,000 to 1.2 million [1:05:40] illegal immigrants [1:05:41] in the UK. [1:05:42] As you can see, [1:05:43] it's the highest, [1:05:44] alongside Germany, [1:05:45] the highest, [1:05:46] which has, you know, [1:05:47] slightly higher [1:05:48] if you're just looking [1:05:49] at the median, [1:05:49] which has, [1:05:50] about 1.2 million [1:05:51] as well, [1:05:51] at the maximum. [1:05:53] However, [1:05:54] here's the thing. [1:05:54] Well, first of all, [1:05:55] you know, [1:05:55] there were big question marks [1:05:56] over this. [1:05:56] How do you estimate this? [1:05:58] Secondly, [1:05:59] when they looked again [1:05:59] at the data [1:06:00] a few years later, [1:06:02] so actually just more [1:06:02] recently this year, [1:06:03] look at that bar. [1:06:04] It went down [1:06:05] to 700,000 to 900,000, [1:06:08] okay? [1:06:08] So a lower estimate [1:06:09] will be it still high. [1:06:11] And if you just take [1:06:12] that number [1:06:12] and compare it [1:06:13] with the other estimates [1:06:15] that we have out there, [1:06:15] like I say, [1:06:16] it is not, [1:06:17] in no way, [1:06:18] an exact science. [1:06:19] But that's Pew, [1:06:20] with that revised estimate. [1:06:22] You've got the GLA, [1:06:23] they came up [1:06:23] with a number, [1:06:24] so for London, [1:06:24] but extrapolating [1:06:25] it to the rest [1:06:26] of the country, [1:06:26] which is talking [1:06:27] about 600,000 or so. [1:06:29] Another study [1:06:29] associated with Oxford [1:06:31] was talking about [1:06:31] 745,000. [1:06:33] But these are big numbers. [1:06:35] There's no getting away [1:06:36] from them being big numbers, [1:06:37] whether you're talking [1:06:37] about it being [1:06:38] around a million [1:06:39] or in the hundreds [1:06:40] of thousands. [1:06:41] It's nonetheless big. [1:06:42] And I think [1:06:42] the question really [1:06:43] at the moment is, [1:06:44] how has the recent [1:06:45] increase in asylum seekers [1:06:47] contributed towards this? [1:06:48] This is kind of [1:06:49] the closest thing [1:06:50] we have to an official [1:06:51] estimate, [1:06:51] which is showing you [1:06:52] the number of asylum seekers [1:06:53] in the UK [1:06:53] that are kind of [1:06:54] weighting their [1:06:55] initial decisions. [1:06:56] So they are here [1:06:57] in the country, [1:06:58] many of them [1:06:59] in those hotels [1:06:59] that we've heard [1:07:00] about recently, [1:07:00] others in other forms [1:07:01] of accommodation. [1:07:02] That's about 125,000, [1:07:04] which alone is kind of [1:07:05] the size of a city [1:07:06] like Cambridge. [1:07:07] So that's the official [1:07:08] estimate, [1:07:08] but obviously there are [1:07:09] many, [1:07:10] this is assuming [1:07:10] there are many other [1:07:11] people from previous [1:07:12] years who are still [1:07:14] in the country. [1:07:15] So there you have [1:07:15] the overall numbers [1:07:17] in terms of how many [1:07:17] people might be [1:07:18] in the country. [1:07:19] There was another question [1:07:20] that kind of kept coming up, [1:07:20] which is just how expensive [1:07:22] is this system [1:07:23] and how much are people [1:07:24] having to contribute to it? [1:07:26] On that, [1:07:26] we do have some numbers. [1:07:27] Okay, [1:07:28] so this is just showing you [1:07:29] how much was spent [1:07:30] on the asylum system, [1:07:31] primarily in terms [1:07:32] of accommodation, [1:07:33] in 2023 to 2024. [1:07:35] This is all of the [1:07:36] different departments [1:07:37] in government. [1:07:38] I'm just going to zoom in [1:07:39] because obviously health [1:07:40] and education take up [1:07:41] so much of that spending. [1:07:42] So we can actually [1:07:43] just see this in comparison. [1:07:45] So there you have it, [1:07:46] £4.7 billion in the [1:07:48] latest fiscal year [1:07:50] that we have numbers for. [1:07:52] And it's worth [1:07:52] just taking a step back. [1:07:53] I mean, [1:07:54] you know, [1:07:54] what do these numbers mean? [1:07:55] Well, [1:07:55] £4.7 billion, [1:07:56] it is more [1:07:57] than the single [1:07:58] intelligence account. [1:08:00] So we're spending more [1:08:01] on the asylum system [1:08:02] than we are spending [1:08:03] on all of the spies, [1:08:05] for instance, [1:08:05] in the UK, [1:08:06] include MI6, [1:08:07] MI5, [1:08:08] GCHQ, [1:08:09] and a little bit less [1:08:10] than the energy department, [1:08:11] more than the business [1:08:12] and trade department, [1:08:13] more than culture [1:08:13] and media and sport. [1:08:14] So this is not [1:08:15] in any way trivial. [1:08:16] These are now [1:08:17] very high numbers [1:08:19] that need to be accounted [1:08:20] for within the public [1:08:21] accounts. [1:08:21] And I think the question [1:08:22] is, you know, [1:08:22] whether that number [1:08:23] is going to go up [1:08:23] in the coming years. [1:08:24] So it's a fiscal issue [1:08:25] certainly as well. [1:08:27] But the final thing [1:08:27] just I wanted to kind of [1:08:28] focus on is, [1:08:29] again, [1:08:30] question marks over [1:08:31] what is the contribution [1:08:32] of not just, [1:08:34] not asylum seekers, [1:08:36] but immigrants [1:08:37] to the country? [1:08:38] How much are they [1:08:38] bringing in indeed [1:08:40] and how much [1:08:40] are they taking back [1:08:42] from the welfare state? [1:08:43] And here, [1:08:44] there's an interesting [1:08:44] study here. [1:08:45] This is from the [1:08:45] Office of Budget [1:08:46] Responsibility, [1:08:46] basically showing you [1:08:47] in someone's life [1:08:49] how much they are [1:08:50] taking away [1:08:51] from the state. [1:08:52] So if that line [1:08:53] is below the middle line, [1:08:54] then they are taking away [1:08:55] and how much they are [1:08:56] contributing to the state. [1:08:57] So obviously, [1:08:58] this is for, [1:08:59] you know, [1:08:59] people like you and me, [1:09:01] it's citizens of the UK. [1:09:02] In childhood, [1:09:03] we tend to be [1:09:04] net recipients [1:09:04] of benefits [1:09:05] and indeed payments [1:09:06] from the state. [1:09:07] So obviously, [1:09:07] we're at school [1:09:08] during that period. [1:09:09] Then you go through [1:09:09] the kind of prime [1:09:10] of your working life. [1:09:10] You're putting taxes in. [1:09:12] And then when you're retired [1:09:13] and when you're [1:09:14] potentially in old age, [1:09:15] you're taking more money [1:09:16] back in net terms [1:09:17] because you're, [1:09:18] well, you're taking [1:09:19] your pension, [1:09:19] but also potentially [1:09:20] you're taking more [1:09:20] from the health service [1:09:21] because you need support. [1:09:23] That's UK residents. [1:09:24] Have a look at the shape [1:09:25] of these lines [1:09:26] when it comes to immigrants [1:09:27] because it's kind of striking. [1:09:28] Obviously, [1:09:29] they're not coming in [1:09:29] until later in life, [1:09:31] typically. [1:09:32] And so during that period, [1:09:33] the average migrant [1:09:34] actually is putting in [1:09:36] more to the system [1:09:37] in cumulative terms [1:09:39] than the average UK resident. [1:09:41] So that is the overall, [1:09:42] the average picture, [1:09:44] but it varies. [1:09:45] So for some people [1:09:46] who, for instance, [1:09:46] are earning lots more money, [1:09:47] putting more taxes [1:09:48] into the system [1:09:49] with high wages, [1:09:50] they're actually [1:09:50] contributing even more. [1:09:53] But for those who aren't, [1:09:54] for those who are [1:09:54] on lower wages [1:09:55] who might be taking back [1:09:57] more than they're putting in, [1:09:59] actually, look, [1:10:00] that line is below [1:10:01] the UK resident. [1:10:02] In other words, [1:10:02] over the course of their life, [1:10:04] they are taking more [1:10:05] from the system [1:10:06] than those who are born [1:10:07] in the UK. [1:10:08] So it just really underlines. [1:10:10] It kind of depends. [1:10:11] But there are certainly [1:10:12] lots of positive stories [1:10:13] in terms of migrants [1:10:15] putting in more [1:10:16] in general [1:10:17] and on average, SJ. [1:10:19] Ed, thank you so much. [1:10:24] Ed Conway there [1:10:25] taking us through [1:10:26] the numbers [1:10:26] behind this debate. [1:10:27] I'm just going to interrupt [1:10:28] our immigration coverage now [1:10:30] to take you to America. [1:10:31] Some breaking news [1:10:32] from there [1:10:33] and a prominent [1:10:34] conservative activist [1:10:35] has been involved [1:10:36] in a shooting [1:10:37] in Utah. [1:10:39] Let's bring in David Blevins [1:10:40] for the latest, [1:10:41] our US correspondent. [1:10:42] David. [1:10:45] Yes, Charlie Kirk [1:10:46] is a very prominent [1:10:47] conservative activist, [1:10:49] writer and broadcaster, [1:10:51] a high-profile supporter [1:10:53] of President Donald Trump. [1:10:55] He hosts a weekly podcast [1:10:57] and radio programme [1:10:58] and is known [1:10:59] to many other people [1:11:00] as the founder [1:11:01] and president [1:11:02] of Turning Point, [1:11:03] a non-profit organisation [1:11:05] that promotes [1:11:06] conservative ideas [1:11:07] among high school [1:11:08] and college students. [1:11:10] We understand [1:11:10] that he was speaking [1:11:11] at Utah Valley University. [1:11:15] Some videos circulating online [1:11:17] clearly indicate [1:11:19] that a shot was fired. [1:11:21] He appears to be [1:11:23] physically impacted [1:11:24] by that [1:11:25] and you can hear [1:11:25] the crowd audibly panicking [1:11:27] and beginning to run. [1:11:29] We're told by our partners [1:11:31] at NBC [1:11:31] here in the United States [1:11:33] that one person [1:11:34] is in custody. [1:11:36] We are getting [1:11:37] some response to this. [1:11:39] We're told there is [1:11:40] a very palpable sense [1:11:41] of shock [1:11:42] at the White House. [1:11:43] The Vice President, [1:11:44] J.D. Vance, [1:11:45] is encouraging people [1:11:46] to pray for Charlie Kirk. [1:11:48] He says he is [1:11:49] a genuinely good guy [1:11:51] and a good father. [1:11:53] We're also hearing [1:11:54] from the FBI [1:11:55] Director Kash Patel [1:11:57] who says [1:11:58] our thoughts are with Charlie, [1:11:59] his loved ones [1:12:00] and everyone affected. [1:12:01] Agents will be [1:12:02] on the scene quickly [1:12:03] and the FBI [1:12:04] stands in full support [1:12:06] of the ongoing response [1:12:08] and investigation. [1:12:10] So it's a very clear [1:12:11] indication yet again [1:12:12] of just how deeply [1:12:13] polarised America is [1:12:15] in terms of its politics [1:12:16] and how dangerous [1:12:18] a place it is [1:12:19] in terms of access [1:12:20] to guns. [1:12:21] But the breaking news [1:12:22] this hour [1:12:23] is that Charlie Kirk, [1:12:25] a 31-year-old, [1:12:27] very prominent [1:12:27] conservative activist [1:12:29] in the United States, [1:12:31] has been involved [1:12:32] in a gun incident, [1:12:34] a shooting incident [1:12:35] at Utah Valley University, [1:12:37] an incident [1:12:38] that is continuing [1:12:39] to cause shock, [1:12:40] it would appear [1:12:41] at the White House [1:12:42] and we await further updates. [1:12:44] We, as we speak, [1:12:45] I think are just hearing [1:12:46] from the President [1:12:48] of the United States, [1:12:50] Donald Trump. [1:12:52] He says, [1:12:53] we must all pray [1:12:54] for Charlie Kirk [1:12:55] who has been shot, [1:12:57] a great guy [1:12:58] from top to bottom [1:12:59] in capital letters, [1:13:00] God bless him! [1:13:02] So the President [1:13:04] of the United States, [1:13:05] Donald Trump, [1:13:06] confirming [1:13:06] that the prominent [1:13:07] conservative activist, [1:13:09] writer and broadcaster, [1:13:11] Charlie Kirk, [1:13:12] has been shot [1:13:13] in this incident [1:13:14] at Utah Valley University [1:13:16] this afternoon [1:13:17] and urging people [1:13:19] to pray for him. [1:13:23] David, thank you. [1:13:23] David Blevins, [1:13:24] our US correspondent [1:13:25] with the update there [1:13:25] from Washington. [1:13:26] More updates [1:13:27] from the United States [1:13:28] throughout the evening [1:13:29] on this breaking news. [1:13:33] Well, let's return [1:13:33] to the immigration debate [1:13:35] and get reaction [1:13:36] to what we've heard [1:13:37] over the course [1:13:37] of the last hour or so [1:13:39] from another political party. [1:13:41] I'm joined now [1:13:43] by the leader [1:13:43] of the Green Party, [1:13:44] Zach Kolansky, [1:13:45] who was watching [1:13:46] the debate for us [1:13:47] from Westminster. [1:13:48] Zach Kolansky, [1:13:49] be interested to know [1:13:50] what you made of it. [1:13:51] A broad spectrum of views [1:13:52] from our audience [1:13:53] there tonight [1:13:54] and the responses [1:13:55] from your political opponents. [1:13:57] I thought it was grim [1:13:58] and depressing [1:13:59] and pretty much indicative [1:14:01] of the state [1:14:02] of political conversation [1:14:03] in this country. [1:14:04] I actually thought [1:14:05] the audience did [1:14:06] a much better job [1:14:07] than the politicians [1:14:08] because the one thing [1:14:09] that was really missing [1:14:10] from that debate [1:14:10] was the truth [1:14:11] and I'll tell you [1:14:12] what that is. [1:14:13] Immigration is good [1:14:15] for this country. [1:14:16] We have an ageing population. [1:14:18] We have 150,000 vacancies [1:14:20] in our National Health Service [1:14:21] and ultimately [1:14:22] we need to make sure [1:14:23] that we're training [1:14:23] British workers, yes, [1:14:25] but also if we want [1:14:26] to keep our healthcare system [1:14:27] working, [1:14:28] our care system [1:14:29] and so many other industries, [1:14:31] we need to make sure [1:14:31] that we are accepting [1:14:32] people here. [1:14:33] The average migrant worker [1:14:35] puts £78,000 [1:14:36] on average a year [1:14:38] into the system [1:14:39] then they take out. [1:14:41] Why can't a politician [1:14:42] from another party [1:14:43] just say that? [1:14:43] Yeah, Mr Polanski, [1:14:46] I think it's fair to say [1:14:47] that all political parties [1:14:48] represented on Station Ike [1:14:50] did agree that, [1:14:51] you know, [1:14:51] migration could be good [1:14:52] and they did outline [1:14:53] the positives. [1:14:54] The problems for them [1:14:55] and the audience [1:14:56] was the numbers, [1:14:58] the backlog, [1:14:58] the number of small boats [1:14:59] crossings, [1:15:00] the number of asylum seekers [1:15:02] still in hotels [1:15:03] and as was reflected [1:15:04] by the audience [1:15:05] and the panel tonight [1:15:07] was that the system [1:15:09] is broken [1:15:09] in terms of processing [1:15:10] these asylum claims. [1:15:12] What would the Greens [1:15:13] do that would be different? [1:15:14] How would you fix [1:15:15] this problem? [1:15:17] Well, if I'd been [1:15:17] in the debate tonight [1:15:18] I would have been able [1:15:19] to say that small boat [1:15:20] crossings are just 5% [1:15:22] of overall migration. [1:15:23] They're important [1:15:24] to get right [1:15:25] because these are people [1:15:25] often fleeing their lives [1:15:27] but 95% of the rest [1:15:29] of migration [1:15:29] rarely gets talked about. [1:15:31] In that debate [1:15:31] was 5% of the conversation [1:15:33] about small boats? [1:15:34] No, it dominated the debate. [1:15:36] The way to stop [1:15:37] the small boats today [1:15:38] is quite simple. [1:15:39] It's to offer safe [1:15:41] and legal routes [1:15:42] because actually [1:15:43] this is a manufactured crisis. [1:15:45] The only reason [1:15:45] people are on small boats [1:15:47] is because Conservative government [1:15:48] in 2016, 2017 [1:15:50] and now continued [1:15:51] by a Labour government [1:15:52] decided to go [1:15:53] for performative cruelty [1:15:54] to delay [1:15:55] asylum processing claims. [1:15:57] It's important to point out [1:15:59] that most asylum-seeking claims [1:16:01] over 80% [1:16:01] actually get approved. [1:16:04] Those people have a valid [1:16:05] and legitimate reason [1:16:06] to be here [1:16:06] and all we're doing [1:16:07] by putting them in hotels [1:16:08] or delaying the processing [1:16:10] is making it look [1:16:11] more of a crisis [1:16:12] or a crisis at all [1:16:14] as opposed to dealing [1:16:15] with people [1:16:15] with common humanity [1:16:16] and dignity [1:16:17] and recognising [1:16:18] the problems in this country [1:16:19] are problems of austerity. [1:16:21] 14 years of a Conservative government [1:16:23] and now a Labour government [1:16:24] that refuse to tax [1:16:25] multi-millionaires [1:16:26] and billionaires [1:16:27] just a small amount. [1:16:28] I just wonder [1:16:29] if tonight [1:16:30] you're a little bit [1:16:30] out of step [1:16:31] with public opinion. [1:16:32] I'm going to talk [1:16:32] to our Deputy Political Editor [1:16:33] Sam Coates [1:16:34] who you of course know [1:16:35] and he said [1:16:36] that polling today [1:16:37] shows us [1:16:38] that the issue [1:16:38] of immigration [1:16:39] has overtaken [1:16:40] the economy [1:16:41] as people's number one [1:16:42] concern right now [1:16:42] for the first time [1:16:43] since Brexit [1:16:44] and when you look [1:16:45] at public opinion [1:16:46] 70% of people [1:16:47] polled say [1:16:48] immigration is too high [1:16:49] some 50% think [1:16:50] immigration is having [1:16:51] a negative impact [1:16:52] on the UK [1:16:53] so you talk about opening [1:16:55] safe and legal routes [1:16:56] to stop the small boats [1:16:57] and you also talk about [1:16:58] migration [1:16:59] immigration being [1:17:00] a positive thing [1:17:01] but how do you reframe [1:17:02] that with the public [1:17:03] because in the public's mind [1:17:04] these numbers are too high [1:17:06] and it's stretching resources [1:17:08] it's feeding into everything [1:17:09] you were talking about there [1:17:10] austerity [1:17:11] stretched NHS [1:17:12] the economy [1:17:13] the inability to get [1:17:14] on the housing ladder [1:17:15] so how do you translate [1:17:16] that to a public [1:17:17] that doesn't agree [1:17:18] with what you're saying? [1:17:19] well the first thing [1:17:20] to say is [1:17:20] of course that's partly [1:17:21] the debate [1:17:22] if you hold the debate [1:17:23] and don't invite the Green Party [1:17:24] but put Zia Youssef [1:17:26] on the panel [1:17:26] when he's not even [1:17:27] a member of parliament [1:17:28] second though [1:17:29] I think more importantly [1:17:30] when you look at the polling [1:17:31] it shows over and over again [1:17:33] yes I appreciate [1:17:35] this conversation [1:17:36] so thank you [1:17:36] when you look at the polling [1:17:38] it shows that people [1:17:38] don't want numbers to fall [1:17:40] they just want to know [1:17:41] that the government [1:17:41] is in control of it [1:17:43] and right now [1:17:43] the government isn't [1:17:44] in control often [1:17:45] of migration [1:17:46] because they're invested [1:17:47] in interest [1:17:47] to multi-millionaires [1:17:48] and billionaires [1:17:49] who donate [1:17:50] to their political parties [1:17:51] so rather than spend money [1:17:52] on public services [1:17:53] rather than building [1:17:54] council houses [1:17:55] rather than protecting [1:17:56] their national health service [1:17:58] or lowering people's bills [1:17:59] by nationalising [1:18:00] our water companies [1:18:01] instead they're making decisions [1:18:02] to give tax breaks [1:18:04] to super rich people [1:18:05] whilst reducing welfare [1:18:07] they're making decisions [1:18:08] to spend 15 billion pounds [1:18:09] on nuclear weapons [1:18:10] and spend more money on war [1:18:12] is it a surprise [1:18:13] when we're spending money on war [1:18:14] that then people have to move [1:18:16] and migrate [1:18:16] because their countries [1:18:17] are unstable [1:18:18] none of this [1:18:19] is coherent thinking [1:18:20] and this is entirely [1:18:21] what this government [1:18:22] and the previous government [1:18:23] did [1:18:24] it's time to have a reset [1:18:25] on this conversation [1:18:26] and actually tell the truth [1:18:27] about migration [1:18:27] it's got us to where we are now [1:18:29] but the point we're at now [1:18:30] is where parties like the Greens [1:18:32] the Lib Dems [1:18:33] reform are talking about this [1:18:35] and I know that you very much [1:18:36] want to put immigration [1:18:36] at the front and centre [1:18:37] of the Green Party's agenda [1:18:39] for your views on this [1:18:41] to be heard [1:18:41] and to cut through the noise [1:18:43] as I think it's been put [1:18:45] but how do you solve the problem [1:18:47] because these numbers are huge [1:18:49] we have a large number of asylum seekers [1:18:51] here who aren't being processed [1:18:53] small boats [1:18:54] criminal gangs [1:18:55] asylum seekers [1:18:56] in hotels [1:18:57] how do you make a difference [1:18:59] how will the Green Party [1:19:00] solve the problem [1:19:01] and get to a point [1:19:02] where as you said [1:19:03] people are talking about [1:19:04] migration in immigration [1:19:05] positively [1:19:07] the numbers just aren't huge [1:19:09] so first of all [1:19:10] I have to challenge [1:19:11] the premise of your question [1:19:12] second [1:19:13] the way we deal with this [1:19:15] is to deal with the problems [1:19:16] we have in society anyway [1:19:17] you said I want to put [1:19:18] immigration front and centre [1:19:19] actually I don't [1:19:20] what I want to put [1:19:21] front and centre [1:19:22] the hotels for example [1:19:23] regardless of numbers [1:19:23] let's take numbers out of it [1:19:25] great [1:19:25] communities right now [1:19:26] do not want asylum seekers [1:19:28] seeker hotels [1:19:29] they want them gone [1:19:30] but the big problem is [1:19:32] you know [1:19:32] politicians grappling with [1:19:33] where do they go [1:19:34] what do we do with these numbers [1:19:36] small or big [1:19:37] however you want to cut it [1:19:38] what would you do [1:19:39] well I've just released [1:19:40] a podcast called [1:19:41] Bold Politics [1:19:41] with the migration expert [1:19:43] Zoe Gardner [1:19:43] you should definitely [1:19:44] listen to that [1:19:45] but actually one report [1:19:46] she's just released [1:19:47] well I want to air now [1:19:48] so I'd rather hear your view [1:19:49] sure of course [1:19:50] it's about breaking up [1:19:52] the home office [1:19:53] and actually having a [1:19:53] department of community security [1:19:56] ultimately looking about [1:19:57] how do we put money [1:19:58] into our communities [1:19:59] to create social cohesion [1:20:00] so when people are coming [1:20:01] out of hotels [1:20:02] they are supported [1:20:03] to get into work [1:20:04] to get on the housing ladder [1:20:06] in the same way [1:20:06] that British people [1:20:07] should too [1:20:08] this isn't about [1:20:09] pitting the problems [1:20:10] that British people [1:20:11] are facing against migrants [1:20:12] this is recognising [1:20:14] the 99% [1:20:15] that's small business owners [1:20:17] migrants [1:20:17] working class people [1:20:19] people who are out of work [1:20:20] have so much more in common [1:20:22] than people who are earning [1:20:23] more money in their sleep [1:20:24] than any of us [1:20:25] could possibly ever imagine [1:20:27] we need to redistribute [1:20:28] wealth and power [1:20:29] in this country [1:20:29] and then immigration [1:20:31] just simply won't be a problem [1:20:32] okay [1:20:35] Zach Polanski [1:20:36] new leader [1:20:37] of the Green Party [1:20:38] thank you so much [1:20:39] for your time [1:20:39] thanks so much [1:20:40] for having me [1:20:40] on Sky News [1:20:41] really appreciate it [1:20:42] let's bring an ad up [1:20:44] to political Sam Coates [1:20:45] who was listening to that interview [1:20:46] and was right across the debate [1:20:47] a little debrief there [1:20:49] on what Zach Polanski [1:20:50] has to say [1:20:50] he wants to reframe [1:20:52] this immigration debate [1:20:53] in a positive light [1:20:54] but it's really hard [1:20:54] to do that at the moment [1:20:55] because we've been talking [1:20:56] about public opinion [1:20:57] and they're not feeling [1:20:58] particularly positive [1:20:59] at the moment [1:20:59] I thought Zach Polanski [1:21:01] was really interesting [1:21:02] for this reason [1:21:03] you quoted at him [1:21:04] the figure that 70% [1:21:06] of the people that we polled [1:21:08] thought that immigration [1:21:09] is too high [1:21:10] that leaves 30% [1:21:11] who aren't saying that [1:21:12] now I think [1:21:14] where Zach Polanski [1:21:16] lands on this [1:21:17] suggests [1:21:18] why actually [1:21:19] the Labour Party [1:21:20] might have some difficulties [1:21:21] because the Labour Party [1:21:23] have an electoral coalition [1:21:25] of which [1:21:25] which includes [1:21:26] some people [1:21:27] who would agree [1:21:27] with Zach Polanski [1:21:28] that actually [1:21:30] we need to support people [1:21:31] from some of the [1:21:32] most troubled parts [1:21:33] of the country [1:21:34] and that's the priority [1:21:35] for them [1:21:35] as well as the Labour [1:21:37] part of the voting coalition [1:21:39] having people [1:21:39] who are worried [1:21:40] about the scale of immigration [1:21:41] but Labour's trying [1:21:42] to face both ways [1:21:43] and now it faces [1:21:44] a kind of reinvigorated threat [1:21:46] from Zach Polanski's [1:21:47] Green Party [1:21:48] and I think [1:21:50] you were saying to him [1:21:52] look [1:21:53] a lot of the public [1:21:54] think that there is [1:21:55] a problem here [1:21:55] he is catering [1:21:57] really for the part [1:21:58] for the part [1:21:59] of the public [1:21:59] who don't think that [1:22:00] and there is a constituency [1:22:02] there [1:22:02] and there's a constituency [1:22:03] it's typically amongst the left [1:22:05] and there is a sort of gaggle [1:22:06] of parties [1:22:07] to the left of Labour [1:22:09] on this [1:22:10] the Liberal Democrats [1:22:10] are some way [1:22:11] of the way [1:22:12] of the way there [1:22:14] and he is trying to own that [1:22:16] admittedly [1:22:17] smaller portion of the pie [1:22:18] but you can do that [1:22:20] by staking out [1:22:21] a different position [1:22:22] to it [1:22:23] because actually [1:22:23] what we heard [1:22:24] as we were saying earlier [1:22:25] there was a lot of consensus [1:22:26] amongst the four people [1:22:27] who are on the panel [1:22:27] what is interesting [1:22:29] about Zach Polanski [1:22:30] and the Greens [1:22:30] is they are taking [1:22:31] a different view [1:22:32] they are taking [1:22:32] a strongly different view [1:22:34] because they think [1:22:35] there are voters [1:22:36] to be hoovered up [1:22:37] who agree with them [1:22:38] now let's see [1:22:39] whether it works [1:22:40] let's see whether [1:22:40] the percentage of people [1:22:41] who say they are going [1:22:42] to vote Green [1:22:42] goes up [1:22:43] but there is [1:22:45] there is strategy [1:22:46] in not necessarily [1:22:47] having the same [1:22:48] kind of tough [1:22:49] sounding asylum [1:22:50] and immigration policy [1:22:51] that the other [1:22:51] parties think [1:22:53] is necessarily [1:22:53] for their electoral [1:22:55] success [1:22:55] let's just see [1:22:56] if it works [1:22:57] there was also [1:22:58] an interesting point [1:22:58] in the debate [1:22:59] and I think [1:22:59] it was Trevor [1:23:00] talking to [1:23:01] Zia Yusuf [1:23:02] and asking reform [1:23:04] who they would [1:23:05] allow in [1:23:05] because obviously [1:23:06] reform is saying [1:23:07] look [1:23:07] there are positives [1:23:08] to migration [1:23:09] obviously [1:23:10] they very publicly [1:23:12] talk about the negatives [1:23:13] but when pressed [1:23:14] on [1:23:14] who would you [1:23:15] allow in [1:23:16] again [1:23:16] that nuance [1:23:17] no politician [1:23:18] seems to want [1:23:19] to go near that [1:23:21] as to who [1:23:21] would be allowed [1:23:22] in and who [1:23:23] would not [1:23:23] ultimately [1:23:24] it seems [1:23:25] that Zia Yusuf [1:23:25] wants net [1:23:26] negative migration [1:23:28] so [1:23:28] one in one out [1:23:30] is not even feasible [1:23:31] at the moment [1:23:32] and so you want [1:23:32] to [1:23:33] so [1:23:33] their essential [1:23:35] position [1:23:35] is [1:23:36] the number [1:23:37] of people [1:23:37] in the UK [1:23:37] is still [1:23:38] too high [1:23:40] but [1:23:42] again [1:23:43] solutions [1:23:44] are hard [1:23:45] and [1:23:45] where [1:23:46] the politicians [1:23:47] were most [1:23:48] comfortable [1:23:48] in our debate [1:23:49] this evening [1:23:50] was when [1:23:50] they were fighting [1:23:51] over rhetoric [1:23:52] not really [1:23:53] arguing over [1:23:53] solutions [1:23:54] thank you [1:23:56] Sam Coates [1:23:56] our deputy [1:23:57] political editor [1:23:58] there [1:23:58] I'm going to [1:23:59] cross now [1:23:59] to a place [1:24:00] that in many ways [1:24:01] has become [1:24:01] the focal point [1:24:02] for this [1:24:03] immigration [1:24:04] debate [1:24:05] particularly [1:24:05] over the [1:24:06] summer months [1:24:06] you'll of course [1:24:07] remember [1:24:08] the Bell Hotel [1:24:09] in Epping [1:24:09] now [1:24:10] synonymous [1:24:10] with [1:24:11] asylum seekers [1:24:12] that hotel [1:24:13] accommodating [1:24:14] them [1:24:14] this summer [1:24:15] and it put [1:24:15] local officials [1:24:16] on a collision [1:24:16] course [1:24:17] with the [1:24:17] Westminster [1:24:18] government [1:24:18] and it sparked [1:24:19] a national [1:24:20] conversation [1:24:20] over how [1:24:21] and where [1:24:22] illegal immigrants [1:24:23] should be [1:24:24] housed [1:24:25] well [1:24:27] Councillor [1:24:28] Chris Whitbread [1:24:29] is the [1:24:29] conservative [1:24:30] leader of [1:24:31] Epping Forest [1:24:31] Council [1:24:32] and joins me [1:24:33] now [1:24:34] Councillor [1:24:34] good of you [1:24:35] to speak [1:24:35] to us [1:24:36] here on [1:24:36] Sky News [1:24:37] hopefully [1:24:37] you've [1:24:37] caught [1:24:37] a lot [1:24:38] of that [1:24:39] debate [1:24:39] and much [1:24:40] of it [1:24:40] is playing [1:24:41] out on [1:24:42] the streets [1:24:43] of Epping [1:24:44] amongst [1:24:44] your community [1:24:46] talk to me [1:24:47] about what [1:24:47] you heard [1:24:47] tonight [1:24:48] and what [1:24:48] stood out [1:24:48] for you [1:24:49] well [1:24:51] to me [1:24:52] actually [1:24:52] it did [1:24:53] reflect [1:24:53] a lot [1:24:53] of the [1:24:54] debates [1:24:54] that are [1:24:55] going on [1:24:55] around me [1:24:56] here [1:24:56] in Epping [1:24:57] Forest [1:24:58] as we [1:24:59] have gone [1:25:00] through the [1:25:00] past two [1:25:01] months [1:25:01] and of course [1:25:02] immigration [1:25:04] has become [1:25:04] very high up [1:25:06] on the agenda [1:25:06] particularly [1:25:07] illegal [1:25:08] immigration [1:25:09] but the [1:25:10] problems [1:25:10] that I have [1:25:11] here in [1:25:11] Epping Forest [1:25:12] could have [1:25:12] been avoided [1:25:13] if the [1:25:14] government [1:25:14] had listened [1:25:15] to us [1:25:15] when we [1:25:15] said [1:25:16] the [1:25:16] Bell Hotel [1:25:17] was the [1:25:18] wrong place [1:25:18] to place [1:25:19] single male [1:25:20] asylum seekers [1:25:21] and really [1:25:23] I just hoped [1:25:24] that they would [1:25:24] have listened [1:25:24] and spoken [1:25:25] to us [1:25:26] so we could [1:25:26] have resolved [1:25:26] this issue [1:25:27] by now [1:25:27] because my [1:25:28] only interest [1:25:29] really is to [1:25:30] the people [1:25:30] of Epping [1:25:31] Forest [1:25:31] is the mood [1:25:37] in Epping [1:25:37] Forest [1:25:38] right now [1:25:38] because obviously [1:25:39] that hotel [1:25:40] is still [1:25:40] operational [1:25:41] you lost [1:25:42] in court [1:25:42] you're appealing [1:25:43] it [1:25:43] it's become [1:25:44] this whole [1:25:44] legal wrangle [1:25:45] and other [1:25:46] councils [1:25:46] looking at [1:25:47] you as [1:25:47] the Bellwether [1:25:48] Council [1:25:49] if you like [1:25:50] as to [1:25:50] what happens [1:25:51] in a community [1:25:52] when [1:25:52] asylum seekers [1:25:53] are housed [1:25:54] without [1:25:56] really [1:25:56] conversation [1:25:57] with [1:25:57] neither [1:25:59] the council [1:25:59] nor the [1:26:00] community [1:26:00] what's the mood [1:26:01] in Epping [1:26:01] Forest [1:26:02] at the moment [1:26:02] because we are [1:26:03] a couple of [1:26:03] months into [1:26:04] this [1:26:04] yeah [1:26:06] I mean [1:26:07] people are [1:26:08] really annoyed [1:26:09] they're really [1:26:09] annoyed that the [1:26:10] government didn't [1:26:10] listen [1:26:11] they didn't [1:26:11] listen when we [1:26:12] went to [1:26:12] court [1:26:13] they then [1:26:13] appealed [1:26:13] against a [1:26:14] judgement [1:26:14] and won [1:26:15] that caused [1:26:16] a great deal [1:26:17] of concern [1:26:17] which means [1:26:18] we're still [1:26:18] having regular [1:26:19] weekly protest [1:26:20] which is upsetting [1:26:21] the community [1:26:22] as well [1:26:23] because there [1:26:24] are those [1:26:25] in the community [1:26:25] who aren't [1:26:27] going on a [1:26:27] protest [1:26:27] but still [1:26:28] believe that [1:26:29] the Bell Hotel [1:26:29] should be [1:26:30] closed [1:26:30] so actually [1:26:31] the government [1:26:33] has won no [1:26:33] friends with [1:26:34] what it's done [1:26:34] and it would [1:26:35] have been much [1:26:35] better to [1:26:36] actually open up [1:26:37] the lines of [1:26:37] communication [1:26:38] and talk to us [1:26:39] as a council [1:26:40] we understand [1:26:41] what people are [1:26:42] going through [1:26:42] here [1:26:42] we've had an [1:26:43] asylum seeker [1:26:45] convicted now [1:26:46] of attacking [1:26:48] a young girl [1:26:49] and that's [1:26:50] just not [1:26:51] acceptable [1:26:51] and this [1:26:53] is a hotel [1:26:53] that just [1:26:54] needs to be [1:26:55] closed [1:26:55] if you take [1:26:56] away the [1:26:56] wider [1:26:57] asylum issue [1:26:59] and I don't [1:27:00] intend to be [1:27:00] an armchair [1:27:01] home secretary [1:27:02] this evening [1:27:02] obviously it's [1:27:04] down to the [1:27:04] government to [1:27:04] address the [1:27:05] problems [1:27:05] and we know [1:27:06] it's difficult [1:27:07] but this hotel [1:27:08] in itself [1:27:09] is indicative [1:27:10] of a government [1:27:10] that's just not [1:27:11] listening to real [1:27:12] people [1:27:12] in terms of [1:27:18] members of your [1:27:18] community [1:27:19] obviously you [1:27:20] referenced there [1:27:21] the man that [1:27:21] was convicted [1:27:22] of sexual assault [1:27:23] and he was [1:27:25] staying at that [1:27:26] hotel [1:27:26] and obviously [1:27:28] concerns of safety [1:27:29] and criminality [1:27:30] amongst the [1:27:31] community [1:27:31] but what are [1:27:32] the other [1:27:32] concerns [1:27:33] because there [1:27:34] is a feeling [1:27:35] for some [1:27:36] that the [1:27:38] migrant crisis [1:27:39] is being used [1:27:40] as the scapegoat [1:27:40] for other [1:27:41] problems in this [1:27:42] country [1:27:42] you know [1:27:43] an NHS [1:27:43] that's on [1:27:44] its knees [1:27:44] a stretched [1:27:45] education system [1:27:47] police resources [1:27:49] you know [1:27:49] no bobbies [1:27:50] on the beat [1:27:50] in their area [1:27:51] what are [1:27:52] the concerns [1:27:53] amongst the [1:27:53] community [1:27:54] obviously the [1:27:54] criminal element [1:27:55] very much [1:27:56] because of course [1:27:56] what's happened [1:27:57] in your community [1:27:58] is absolutely [1:27:59] abhorrent [1:27:59] but that aside [1:28:01] what are the [1:28:01] other concerns [1:28:02] the real concerns [1:28:05] here are the [1:28:06] cost of living [1:28:06] crisis [1:28:07] that's on [1:28:07] everyone's mind [1:28:08] at the present [1:28:09] time [1:28:09] bills are still [1:28:10] rising [1:28:10] interest rates [1:28:11] are still [1:28:12] relatively high [1:28:12] in comparison [1:28:13] so of course [1:28:15] cost of living [1:28:16] is an important [1:28:17] part [1:28:17] law and order [1:28:18] and healthcare [1:28:19] now the reason [1:28:21] that immigration [1:28:22] has risen to [1:28:22] the top [1:28:23] is actually [1:28:24] it's now seen [1:28:25] as a pressure [1:28:26] on law and order [1:28:27] and it's also [1:28:28] seen as a pressure [1:28:29] on the limited [1:28:31] services that we [1:28:32] have in a local [1:28:32] area like Epping [1:28:33] however [1:28:35] if we get back [1:28:36] to the issue [1:28:37] of the hotel [1:28:37] it's in close [1:28:39] proximity to a [1:28:40] local school [1:28:41] residential homes [1:28:43] it's just that [1:28:44] wrong location [1:28:45] that adds [1:28:46] the additional [1:28:47] pressure [1:28:47] that highlights [1:28:48] the issue [1:28:49] of immigration [1:28:50] and I really [1:28:51] believe [1:28:51] if the government [1:28:52] could start [1:28:53] to address [1:28:53] this problem [1:28:54] then it would [1:28:55] see immigration [1:28:56] come down [1:28:56] the scale [1:28:57] of concerns [1:28:58] and areas [1:28:59] like the economy [1:29:00] taxation [1:29:01] size of government [1:29:03] healthcare [1:29:04] law and order [1:29:05] would rise back [1:29:06] up the agenda [1:29:07] and the issues [1:29:09] that really need [1:29:10] to be addressed [1:29:10] where do they go [1:29:14] because that is [1:29:15] the big question [1:29:15] and you know [1:29:16] the politicians [1:29:17] at top level [1:29:18] can't decide [1:29:19] on what the [1:29:20] right answer is [1:29:21] that wrangling [1:29:21] is going on [1:29:22] pretty much [1:29:23] as we speak [1:29:24] yeah I mean [1:29:27] it's a difficult [1:29:28] issue isn't it [1:29:29] there's no easy [1:29:30] solutions but I do [1:29:31] believe the new [1:29:32] home secretary [1:29:33] and I hope she [1:29:33] picks up the phone [1:29:34] to Epping Forest [1:29:34] soon [1:29:35] the new home secretary [1:29:37] seems to have some [1:29:37] positive ideas [1:29:38] and I was pleased [1:29:39] to hear that [1:29:39] there's defence [1:29:40] secretary speaking [1:29:41] to the home secretary [1:29:42] and maybe [1:29:43] around the use [1:29:45] of crown estate [1:29:45] in some way [1:29:46] shape or form [1:29:47] maybe with some [1:29:49] pop-up [1:29:49] processing facilities [1:29:51] so we can get [1:29:52] people processed [1:29:53] quicker and [1:29:54] actually move [1:29:55] the asylum [1:29:55] process much [1:29:58] more quickly [1:29:59] in the future [1:30:00] and I think [1:30:00] that would help [1:30:01] solve the problems [1:30:02] yeah [1:30:04] is it just [1:30:06] the hotel [1:30:07] that is the [1:30:07] issue in terms [1:30:08] of if in [1:30:09] your vicinity [1:30:11] in your area [1:30:12] another suitable [1:30:13] accommodation [1:30:13] were to be found [1:30:14] that wasn't a hotel [1:30:16] right in the heart [1:30:17] of Epping Forest [1:30:18] would that be suitable [1:30:19] or is the council [1:30:20] and the community [1:30:20] of the mind [1:30:21] that we just [1:30:22] do not want [1:30:23] illegal migrants [1:30:24] in our area [1:30:26] they should be put [1:30:27] somewhere that isn't [1:30:29] near schools [1:30:30] near local residents [1:30:32] because there are [1:30:33] some towns and cities [1:30:34] where illegal migrants [1:30:36] asylum seekers [1:30:37] are housed [1:30:38] within the community [1:30:39] on residential streets [1:30:40] yeah [1:30:43] I think the general [1:30:44] thing is here [1:30:45] it's illegal migrants [1:30:46] before their process [1:30:47] before we've found out [1:30:49] who the people are [1:30:49] we're in a situation [1:30:51] in Epping Forest [1:30:52] where the hotel [1:30:53] has people [1:30:55] that we don't know [1:30:55] where they've come from [1:30:57] who they are [1:30:57] and we've got no information [1:30:59] add that to the situation [1:31:02] with one individual [1:31:04] who was done [1:31:05] for sexual assault [1:31:06] that really doesn't [1:31:08] help the situation [1:31:08] and so what we really need [1:31:11] is that clarity [1:31:12] of quick processing [1:31:13] and then moving people forward [1:31:15] well councillor [1:31:19] really good to have your time [1:31:20] this evening [1:31:21] and councillor Whitbrod [1:31:22] they're from Epping Forest [1:31:23] of course [1:31:24] at the centre [1:31:25] of the asylum hotel debate [1:31:27] this summer [1:31:28] protests continuing there [1:31:30] well into September [1:31:32] thank you so much [1:31:32] for your time [1:31:33] this is for you [1:31:33] and our social affairs [1:31:34] correspondent Becky Johnson [1:31:35] you know [1:31:37] this issue of protests [1:31:38] outside asylum hotels [1:31:41] you know only too well [1:31:42] you've spoken to the protesters [1:31:44] on both sides [1:31:45] of this debate [1:31:45] because of course [1:31:46] there's concerned members [1:31:47] of the community [1:31:48] there's those that come in [1:31:49] for other means [1:31:51] to whip up tensions [1:31:52] and there are those [1:31:54] who actually support [1:31:55] those in the hotels [1:31:56] yeah [1:31:57] I was in Epping [1:31:59] the day when residents [1:32:01] there found out [1:32:02] that the court ruling [1:32:03] that had meant [1:32:04] that asylum seekers [1:32:05] would have to be moved out [1:32:06] of the hotel [1:32:07] was overturned [1:32:08] by the court of appeal [1:32:09] and people there [1:32:10] were gutted [1:32:11] you know [1:32:11] they thought that [1:32:12] that hotel was going [1:32:13] to be emptied [1:32:13] of asylum seekers [1:32:14] which is what they'd wanted [1:32:16] ever since the arrest [1:32:17] of this man [1:32:17] who's since been convicted [1:32:19] of this sexual assault [1:32:20] on a schoolgirl [1:32:21] and you know [1:32:23] one of the reasons [1:32:24] that the court of appeal [1:32:25] gave for overturning that [1:32:27] was well [1:32:28] if in one place [1:32:29] there can be [1:32:30] you know [1:32:31] quite rowdy protests [1:32:32] and that leads [1:32:32] to the hotel being emptied [1:32:34] that may encourage [1:32:35] other unrest elsewhere [1:32:36] and the reality is [1:32:38] you know [1:32:38] I don't think [1:32:39] there's a community [1:32:39] in this country [1:32:40] where everybody would say [1:32:41] we love having the asylum [1:32:43] hotel in our community [1:32:44] you know [1:32:44] most councils [1:32:45] would prefer [1:32:45] on behalf of the residents [1:32:46] that live there [1:32:47] that the hotel was closed [1:32:49] but the question is [1:32:50] where do they go [1:32:50] and you know [1:32:51] you put that then [1:32:51] to the councillor [1:32:53] and I think this is [1:32:54] the next step now [1:32:55] because we've got [1:32:56] the new home secretary [1:32:57] clearly the momentum [1:32:59] is in the direction [1:33:00] of closing asylum hotels [1:33:01] now that's upward [1:33:02] of 30,000 people [1:33:03] that are going to need [1:33:04] somewhere to live [1:33:05] now they talk about [1:33:06] disused military facilities [1:33:08] now these bases [1:33:09] wherever they may be [1:33:11] are you know [1:33:12] often quite close [1:33:13] to villages [1:33:15] or rural towns [1:33:16] or we've seen protests [1:33:17] when that's been rooted [1:33:18] in certain communities [1:33:19] exactly [1:33:20] we've seen [1:33:20] you know [1:33:21] we've seen court orders [1:33:22] we've seen court action [1:33:23] we've seen protests [1:33:24] because people in those villages [1:33:25] don't want people living [1:33:26] in the disused military base [1:33:28] near to them [1:33:29] and I think actually [1:33:30] potentially more [1:33:31] politically damaging [1:33:33] will be [1:33:34] and we have already [1:33:36] started to see this [1:33:36] so the contractors [1:33:37] that the home office uses [1:33:38] to provide [1:33:39] housing for asylum seekers [1:33:41] are advertising [1:33:42] for private rentals [1:33:44] now [1:33:44] these are the [1:33:45] house the multiple [1:33:46] occupation [1:33:47] that they then move [1:33:48] the asylum seekers [1:33:48] into so they're living [1:33:49] in communities [1:33:50] but look [1:33:51] if government contractors [1:33:52] are paying landlords [1:33:54] above the odds [1:33:56] they're offering them [1:33:57] you know [1:33:58] we'll pay you for two years [1:33:59] to have this property [1:34:00] then they're essentially [1:34:01] outbidding local residents [1:34:03] who actually might want [1:34:05] to live in that private rental [1:34:06] they might be pushing [1:34:07] the private rental prices up [1:34:08] they're taking housing stock [1:34:09] off the market [1:34:10] at the end of the day [1:34:11] you don't want to live [1:34:12] in the hotel down the road [1:34:14] but you might want to live [1:34:15] in that rental house [1:34:17] so I think actually [1:34:18] although closing the hotels [1:34:20] is clearly [1:34:21] what people want [1:34:23] what happens as a result of that [1:34:26] may actually be equally [1:34:27] unpalatable to people [1:34:28] okay Becky [1:34:29] thank you [1:34:30] Becky Johnson there [1:34:31] a social affairs correspondent [1:34:33] let's rejoin [1:34:34] our economics and data editor [1:34:36] Ed Conway [1:34:36] he's been taking a look [1:34:38] at the numbers [1:34:38] behind the arguments [1:34:39] that we've been hearing tonight [1:34:40] yeah thanks SJ [1:34:42] let's just have a look [1:34:43] actually on a few [1:34:44] of those issues [1:34:44] including what Becky [1:34:45] was talking about there [1:34:46] with accommodation [1:34:47] but first of all [1:34:47] a bit of the big picture here [1:34:49] okay because it's worth [1:34:49] just remembering [1:34:50] given how much talk [1:34:51] there has been recently [1:34:53] given how much talk [1:34:54] we've just heard about [1:34:54] over the course of that debate [1:34:55] that this is quite unusual [1:34:57] it's very unusual [1:34:58] even statistically [1:35:00] looking at what we are [1:35:01] going through right now [1:35:01] and here we're just talking [1:35:02] about overall immigration numbers [1:35:05] the majority of which [1:35:06] is legal migration [1:35:07] when those new Brexit rules [1:35:09] came into place [1:35:10] so end of 2020 [1:35:11] start of 2021 [1:35:12] this is how things looked [1:35:14] and that was kind of [1:35:15] the history of migration [1:35:15] recently [1:35:16] that's EU migration [1:35:17] the light blue there [1:35:18] the dark kind of blue [1:35:20] or kind of blackish line there [1:35:21] that's non-EU migration [1:35:22] look at what happened [1:35:24] after those rules [1:35:25] came into place [1:35:26] look at where those lines go [1:35:27] so EU migration [1:35:29] went down basically [1:35:30] through the floor [1:35:30] whereas non-EU migration [1:35:32] immigration [1:35:33] went into [1:35:34] through the roof [1:35:35] basically [1:35:35] we've never seen [1:35:36] anything quite like that [1:35:37] before in UK history [1:35:38] and just [1:35:39] when I talk about [1:35:40] this being historic [1:35:41] it's worth just taking [1:35:42] kind of comparing [1:35:43] the UK with other [1:35:43] countries around the world [1:35:44] because certainly [1:35:45] when it comes to [1:35:46] overall migrants [1:35:47] we're comparing UK flows [1:35:49] here with other countries [1:35:51] around the rich world [1:35:52] this is [1:35:54] the UK was really [1:35:55] not quite an outlier [1:35:56] but very much [1:35:57] at the top of the table [1:35:58] when it came to [1:35:58] total flows [1:35:59] of migrants [1:36:00] coming into the country [1:36:00] similar thing for students [1:36:02] so actually [1:36:03] there was no other country [1:36:04] in the developed world [1:36:05] that saw as many students [1:36:06] coming in [1:36:07] as the UK [1:36:08] and this isn't even [1:36:09] population adjusted [1:36:10] so more than the US [1:36:11] it's pretty staggering [1:36:12] that number [1:36:13] but what was the picture [1:36:14] for asylum seekers [1:36:15] is this red bar [1:36:16] at the top [1:36:16] when it comes to [1:36:17] asylum seekers [1:36:18] look at this [1:36:19] look at the red bar [1:36:19] actually when it comes [1:36:21] to asylum seekers [1:36:22] the UK actually [1:36:23] much lower [1:36:24] than many of these [1:36:25] other countries [1:36:26] so comparatively speaking [1:36:27] the UK not taking [1:36:29] as many asylum seekers [1:36:30] as many other countries [1:36:30] around the world [1:36:31] but here's an area [1:36:33] and here by the way [1:36:34] is just showing you [1:36:35] asylum numbers [1:36:36] compared with the population [1:36:38] and again [1:36:38] total asylum numbers [1:36:39] about 1 in 800 [1:36:41] that's not the backlog [1:36:42] that's as many [1:36:43] the numbers in recent years [1:36:44] compared with somewhere [1:36:45] like Iceland [1:36:46] where it's 1 in 94 [1:36:48] so compared with [1:36:49] other countries [1:36:50] this is a global [1:36:52] phenomenon [1:36:52] the UK has seen [1:36:53] high numbers [1:36:53] by historical standards [1:36:55] but compared with [1:36:56] other countries [1:36:56] it's relatively low [1:36:57] but one thing [1:36:57] that isn't low [1:36:59] compared with other countries [1:36:59] is the extent [1:37:01] to which many [1:37:01] of those cases [1:37:02] so asylum seekers [1:37:03] coming into the country [1:37:04] have had approvals [1:37:06] to remain [1:37:06] okay so the UK [1:37:07] comparatively [1:37:08] has seen [1:37:09] the propensity [1:37:10] to approve [1:37:11] those asylum seekers [1:37:12] and their right [1:37:13] to remain in the country [1:37:13] rise faster [1:37:14] than most other countries [1:37:15] around the world [1:37:16] so that is different [1:37:17] and then that brings us [1:37:18] back to that question [1:37:19] that we started with [1:37:20] Becky was talking about [1:37:21] a moment ago [1:37:21] which is like [1:37:22] where are asylum seekers [1:37:23] in the short run [1:37:24] while those cases [1:37:25] are being heard [1:37:25] where are they [1:37:26] being accommodated [1:37:27] okay and this [1:37:27] is the numbers [1:37:29] of asylum seekers [1:37:29] in that accommodation [1:37:31] that is being paid for [1:37:32] by the state [1:37:33] for the most part [1:37:34] and so much [1:37:35] controversy recently [1:37:36] we're hearing about it [1:37:37] just earlier on this hour [1:37:38] about hotels [1:37:39] we heard about [1:37:40] what happened in Epping [1:37:40] but it's worth [1:37:42] just remembering [1:37:42] you know hotels [1:37:43] are a good chunk [1:37:45] of the number of people [1:37:46] who are being kept [1:37:47] in that accommodation [1:37:47] while they wait [1:37:48] for their cases [1:37:49] to be heard [1:37:49] but actually the majority [1:37:50] is other accommodations [1:37:51] so it's people living [1:37:52] in apartments [1:37:53] it's accommodation [1:37:54] other forms of accommodation [1:37:56] that is what has [1:37:57] always dominated [1:37:58] and what's likely [1:37:59] to dominate [1:38:00] in the coming years [1:38:01] what we do know though [1:38:03] you know back [1:38:03] to that bigger question [1:38:04] is that this is [1:38:05] something that we [1:38:06] haven't seen before [1:38:07] in terms of the scale [1:38:08] of it [1:38:08] and is proving [1:38:10] a big cost [1:38:11] to the exchequer [1:38:12] as well [1:38:13] yeah go on [1:38:15] Ed thank you [1:38:19] Ed Conway there [1:38:20] running us through [1:38:21] the numbers [1:38:21] well let's talk now [1:38:22] to some of those [1:38:23] who are in the audience [1:38:24] for the immigration debate [1:38:25] tonight [1:38:25] who actually got a chance [1:38:26] to ask their questions [1:38:28] I'm joined by [1:38:28] Diane from Slough [1:38:29] Ryan from Stoke and Church [1:38:31] and Mia from Birmingham [1:38:33] first of all [1:38:34] how was that [1:38:35] I mean [1:38:37] we hadn't got [1:38:38] I think your facial expressions [1:38:40] say it all [1:38:40] Diane you asked a question [1:38:42] about the Navy [1:38:43] and you used the term [1:38:44] invasion [1:38:44] in terms of the numbers [1:38:45] of small boats [1:38:46] coming across [1:38:47] let's just remind everybody [1:38:48] about your question [1:38:49] from tonight [1:38:50] let's take a look [1:38:50] if this was 1942 [1:38:56] and we had [1:38:59] the amount of people [1:39:00] that we currently have [1:39:02] coming across the channel [1:39:03] in small boats [1:39:06] we would not have [1:39:07] hesitated [1:39:08] to deploy the Navy [1:39:10] and to line our shores [1:39:12] with soldiers [1:39:13] to protect us [1:39:15] to protect the country [1:39:16] and to protect the people [1:39:18] in the country [1:39:19] why are we not [1:39:21] doing that [1:39:22] the issue we have here [1:39:23] with deploying the Navy [1:39:24] is if we put them [1:39:26] in our waters [1:39:27] it's not enough [1:39:28] we'd need to be on the shores [1:39:30] of France [1:39:31] and that's French territory [1:39:32] so effectively [1:39:33] we'd need to have [1:39:34] French permission [1:39:35] to be on the shores [1:39:37] so what we're doing [1:39:38] at this point [1:39:39] is ensuring [1:39:40] we're working closely [1:39:41] with the French [1:39:41] operationally [1:39:42] we would have no hesitation [1:39:43] using the Navy [1:39:44] to detain all of those [1:39:46] illegal migrants [1:39:46] transport them directly [1:39:48] to a detention camp [1:39:49] and then deport them [1:39:50] most people [1:39:51] who are fleeing war [1:39:51] and persecution [1:39:52] want to seek asylum [1:39:54] in a country [1:39:55] much closer to home [1:39:56] they want to return [1:39:57] to their country [1:39:57] when the war [1:39:59] or the instability [1:40:01] is over [1:40:03] and so what we should [1:40:03] be doing far earlier [1:40:05] than when people [1:40:05] get to the French coast [1:40:07] is actually supporting [1:40:09] the efforts [1:40:10] that are going on [1:40:10] throughout the United Nations [1:40:12] this war and instability [1:40:13] is a global problem [1:40:14] that needs a global solution [1:40:16] Diane you feel [1:40:20] the numbers are an invasion [1:40:21] and you seem frustrated [1:40:23] that we are seemingly [1:40:25] unable to do nothing [1:40:26] about it [1:40:26] you were given reasons [1:40:27] there of having [1:40:28] no jurisdiction in France [1:40:29] and you know [1:40:30] we spoke to people [1:40:31] who are on Sky News [1:40:31] members of the public [1:40:32] who are frustrated [1:40:33] that these small boats [1:40:34] have picked up [1:40:34] and essentially escorted [1:40:36] to UK waters [1:40:37] and to shore [1:40:38] did you hear anything [1:40:40] that sort of [1:40:41] that did anything [1:40:43] for you [1:40:44] from our politicians [1:40:45] tonight [1:40:45] it seems to be [1:40:46] sort of a debate [1:40:46] that goes around and round [1:40:47] doesn't it [1:40:48] about the small boats [1:40:48] with no answers [1:40:49] yeah [1:40:50] and to be perfectly honest [1:40:51] no I didn't [1:40:53] as I said [1:40:54] I thought they were [1:40:55] paying lip service [1:40:56] there was nothing [1:40:57] that was said [1:40:58] that you know [1:40:59] gave me any confidence [1:41:01] that they were going [1:41:02] to do any [1:41:03] any of the parties [1:41:04] were going to do anything [1:41:05] to if they were in power [1:41:07] to stop [1:41:07] these crossings [1:41:09] what's the concern [1:41:11] for you [1:41:11] about the numbers [1:41:12] what's your [1:41:13] overriding emotion [1:41:15] I think it's the fact [1:41:16] that there are [1:41:18] a considerable number [1:41:20] they are young men [1:41:22] a majority of them [1:41:23] are young men [1:41:24] and they are undocumented [1:41:27] we do not know [1:41:29] who these people are [1:41:31] we have no idea [1:41:32] where they've come from [1:41:34] we don't know [1:41:35] what their criminal [1:41:36] backgrounds are [1:41:37] we don't know [1:41:38] any of their history [1:41:40] we know nothing [1:41:41] about them [1:41:41] but yet [1:41:42] what is being expected [1:41:44] is that people [1:41:44] live in the community [1:41:46] and embrace everybody [1:41:49] and I understand [1:41:50] that you know [1:41:51] some of them [1:41:52] may be genuine [1:41:53] and they may be [1:41:54] fleeing war [1:41:55] etc etc [1:41:56] however [1:41:57] France is a safe country [1:41:59] yeah [1:41:59] I was talking about that [1:42:01] with the lead councillor [1:42:03] from Epping Forest [1:42:05] as well [1:42:05] of course [1:42:05] the asylum hotel [1:42:06] there [1:42:06] he was saying [1:42:07] the exact same thing [1:42:08] communities are expected [1:42:09] to have asylum seekers [1:42:10] in their community [1:42:11] before they've been processed [1:42:12] so they haven't been checked [1:42:14] so you know [1:42:14] that is a concern [1:42:15] that is echoed [1:42:16] in other parts [1:42:17] of the country [1:42:18] as well [1:42:19] and right [1:42:19] let's listen to [1:42:20] your question [1:42:21] from tonight [1:42:22] Labour's promise [1:42:25] to close all asylum hotels [1:42:27] where will these people [1:42:28] be housed [1:42:28] and is the [1:42:30] is this alternative arrangement [1:42:32] sustainable [1:42:32] and ethical [1:42:33] it's really important [1:42:35] that we do move [1:42:36] people out of hotels [1:42:37] it's an unacceptable [1:42:38] solution to this [1:42:39] and the public [1:42:40] have made that [1:42:41] really clear [1:42:42] but of course [1:42:43] you know [1:42:43] I talked earlier [1:42:43] about British values [1:42:44] and that means [1:42:45] that we do [1:42:46] the right thing [1:42:47] we're decent people [1:42:48] we're all decent people [1:42:49] I expect [1:42:49] you're all decent people [1:42:51] and that means [1:42:51] that if people [1:42:52] are travelling here [1:42:53] illegally [1:42:54] they should still [1:42:55] be treated [1:42:56] with that respect [1:42:57] so of course [1:42:58] we're now exploring [1:42:59] MOD sites [1:43:00] and I've no doubt [1:43:00] that that accommodation [1:43:02] will be adequate [1:43:03] for those people [1:43:04] you've got families [1:43:05] who've got no catering [1:43:06] facilities [1:43:07] hotels aren't working [1:43:08] for the communities [1:43:09] like mine [1:43:09] like I was saying [1:43:10] but they're certainly [1:43:10] not working for the people [1:43:11] who are in them [1:43:12] and so we do need [1:43:13] to process people's [1:43:14] applications much faster [1:43:15] so that those [1:43:16] who've got a right [1:43:17] to be here [1:43:17] can get on with their life [1:43:19] can get a job [1:43:19] can contribute [1:43:20] I really do understand [1:43:22] that we didn't deliver [1:43:22] this policy in government [1:43:24] but the overall policy [1:43:25] that's going to stop [1:43:26] all of this [1:43:26] stop people being in hotels [1:43:27] stop them being in social housing [1:43:29] that local people [1:43:29] desperately want [1:43:30] is to have a deterrent [1:43:31] so people don't cross [1:43:32] in the first place [1:43:33] we've got to ask yourself [1:43:33] why people are [1:43:34] making that journey [1:43:35] it's because we offer [1:43:37] the British people [1:43:38] are being forced to pay [1:43:39] for a much better deal [1:43:39] well I think what came out [1:43:43] of the debate tonight [1:43:44] is that something [1:43:45] that's been discussed [1:43:46] for months now [1:43:47] asylum seeker hotels [1:43:49] Ryan aren't working [1:43:50] for anyone [1:43:50] but nobody in a position [1:43:52] to do anything about it [1:43:54] seems to have come up [1:43:55] with a solution [1:43:56] yet it's still being discussed [1:43:58] yeah I mean I think moving [1:44:01] the asylum seekers [1:44:03] from the hotels [1:44:04] to those barracks [1:44:05] or military bases [1:44:08] all that does really [1:44:09] is just [1:44:10] you're creating [1:44:11] another problem [1:44:13] for another day [1:44:13] you're moving the problem [1:44:14] elsewhere [1:44:14] all they're doing [1:44:16] is taking the plaster off [1:44:17] it's taking the big plaster [1:44:18] that's all they're doing [1:44:19] right now I think [1:44:20] we need to focus [1:44:21] on sort of looking [1:44:23] at the true problems [1:44:24] of society today [1:44:26] which is the immigration debate [1:44:27] which is extremely important [1:44:29] in the next general election [1:44:30] I believe [1:44:31] which is why I've come [1:44:32] to sort of decide [1:44:33] whether I want to continue [1:44:35] voting for Labour or not [1:44:36] they didn't really answer [1:44:37] my question [1:44:37] it's not sustainable at all [1:44:39] at all for it [1:44:40] so I think that [1:44:41] this debate [1:44:42] didn't really show [1:44:43] much of a promise at all [1:44:44] and I think that [1:44:46] both the Labour [1:44:47] conservatives and reform [1:44:49] even the Lib Dems [1:44:49] haven't really offered us [1:44:50] a solution to any [1:44:52] of these problems [1:44:52] all they're doing [1:44:53] is running around [1:44:53] in circles [1:44:54] uttering the same thing [1:44:56] over and over again [1:44:56] and they're not offering [1:44:57] proper solutions [1:44:58] to resolve this good [1:44:59] as a crisis [1:45:00] that we're trying in [1:45:00] it's interesting isn't it [1:45:01] we concentrate on the [1:45:02] number of small votes [1:45:03] we concentrate on the [1:45:04] asylum hotels [1:45:05] and we've been talking [1:45:06] about flags a lot recently [1:45:07] but you make it really [1:45:08] important there [1:45:08] in terms of [1:45:09] you know [1:45:09] the solutions [1:45:10] part of that [1:45:11] is a broken asylum [1:45:12] processing system [1:45:13] you know [1:45:14] where to house them [1:45:15] in the meantime [1:45:15] all of those big issues [1:45:16] people like yourselves [1:45:18] who have come here tonight [1:45:19] who ask those questions [1:45:20] are still not getting [1:45:21] the answers directly [1:45:21] from the people [1:45:22] who can make a difference [1:45:23] Mia what was the point [1:45:25] that you wanted to come [1:45:26] and make tonight [1:45:27] to as I said [1:45:28] the panel of people [1:45:29] who say that they [1:45:30] can fix this problem [1:45:31] I think what I wanted [1:45:33] to stress is that [1:45:34] the people who are living [1:45:35] in these hotels [1:45:35] are in danger [1:45:37] I am an asylum [1:45:39] support worker [1:45:40] I work with people [1:45:41] every day [1:45:41] who live in hotels [1:45:42] who are rough sleeping [1:45:43] who are living in [1:45:44] completely unsuitable [1:45:46] home office accommodation [1:45:47] and there are people [1:45:48] on the streets [1:45:49] trying to set [1:45:50] asylum hotels on fire [1:45:51] and the government [1:45:53] and every other party [1:45:54] seems to be more concerned [1:45:56] running themselves [1:45:57] around in circles [1:45:58] talking about flags flying [1:46:00] and what they can do [1:46:02] to reduce the numbers [1:46:03] of immigration [1:46:04] and no one seems [1:46:05] to care about the safety [1:46:06] of the people [1:46:06] who are already here [1:46:07] who are being targeted [1:46:09] every single day [1:46:10] and I think [1:46:11] that the rights [1:46:12] of those people [1:46:13] matter more [1:46:13] than someone in the hotel [1:46:15] wanting [1:46:15] someone in the community [1:46:16] sorry [1:46:16] wanting their hotel back [1:46:18] that's a human life [1:46:19] and there seems [1:46:20] to be absolutely [1:46:21] no concern [1:46:22] for these human lives [1:46:22] from anyone [1:46:23] who has the power [1:46:24] to change that [1:46:26] and I want to ask them [1:46:28] why [1:46:28] and no one really [1:46:28] answered my question [1:46:29] I also really wanted [1:46:31] to ask them about [1:46:31] what they are doing [1:46:32] in Gaza [1:46:33] why they are not [1:46:34] ending arms sales [1:46:36] to Israel [1:46:36] why they are not [1:46:37] intervening in a genocide [1:46:38] where 100,000 people [1:46:39] have been killed [1:46:40] and no one answered that either [1:46:42] yeah [1:46:42] all valid questions [1:46:43] listen [1:46:44] let's listen to your exchange [1:46:46] with the panel tonight [1:46:47] I think it's fair to say [1:46:48] it was quite a frustrating exchange [1:46:50] you made your point [1:46:51] extremely well [1:46:52] let's have a listen [1:46:52] to the response [1:46:53] you've talked about [1:46:55] giving people back [1:46:56] their hotels [1:46:57] I want to know [1:46:58] why that is more important [1:47:00] than the rights [1:47:01] of the people living in them [1:47:02] who by the way [1:47:04] are having like [1:47:05] a terrible time [1:47:06] they're not living [1:47:07] in the Ritz [1:47:07] I support them [1:47:08] as a charity worker [1:47:09] they've got lice [1:47:10] they've got bed bugs [1:47:11] they're not getting any money [1:47:12] they're not getting any food [1:47:13] why does that matter [1:47:15] more than someone [1:47:16] who fancies a trip [1:47:17] to a hotel [1:47:18] and what are you all doing [1:47:20] to actually make sure [1:47:21] that those people are safe [1:47:22] in a UK that is full of [1:47:24] far-right violence [1:47:25] directed against those people [1:47:26] if you're choosing [1:47:27] to enter a country [1:47:28] illegally [1:47:29] in a way that we don't [1:47:30] support as a nation [1:47:31] then I'm afraid [1:47:32] that my sympathy for you [1:47:34] is not as high [1:47:35] as it would otherwise be [1:47:36] now our policy [1:47:36] has always been to say [1:47:38] actually we should [1:47:38] keep people [1:47:39] in a safe third country [1:47:41] that we put forward [1:47:42] as a Rwanda [1:47:43] as a way to do that [1:47:44] so yes we have a basic right [1:47:45] to secure people's accommodation [1:47:47] but actually people [1:47:47] should not be making [1:47:48] the crossing [1:47:48] in the first place [1:47:49] Mia I think you make [1:47:53] a really valid point [1:47:54] that perhaps we didn't [1:47:55] hear enough of tonight [1:47:56] is the fact that there are [1:47:57] people behind these numbers [1:47:58] and I'll put this to you [1:47:59] Diana and Ryan [1:48:01] as well [1:48:01] Diana are we in danger [1:48:02] of forgetting [1:48:03] that it is people [1:48:04] behind these numbers [1:48:05] because just before [1:48:06] we came on air tonight [1:48:07] I had to tell people [1:48:10] the news that two children [1:48:11] died overnight [1:48:13] in a small boat crossing [1:48:14] three people died [1:48:16] another one was a woman [1:48:17] and we tend to concentrate [1:48:18] on the large number [1:48:19] of young men coming across [1:48:21] but there are [1:48:22] as Mia pointed out [1:48:22] genuine asylum seekers [1:48:24] this broken system [1:48:26] is not sorting those out [1:48:27] from the perception [1:48:28] that you know [1:48:28] there are some [1:48:29] perhaps who are here [1:48:30] for economic reasons [1:48:31] or whatever [1:48:32] but are we in danger [1:48:33] of just you know [1:48:34] losing sight of the fact [1:48:36] that these people [1:48:36] are putting their lives [1:48:37] in danger [1:48:38] to come here [1:48:39] for whatever reason [1:48:40] a better life [1:48:41] I think we are [1:48:43] yes [1:48:43] and I can honestly say [1:48:47] that I think the government [1:48:48] is to blame for that [1:48:49] do you think they are [1:48:50] being scapegoated [1:48:51] in terms of [1:48:52] this country has so many problems [1:48:54] in terms of the NHS [1:48:56] education [1:48:57] the economy [1:48:58] and this feels like [1:49:00] something for people [1:49:00] to latch on [1:49:02] to and channel that anger [1:49:03] no I don't [1:49:05] I think [1:49:06] at the end of the day [1:49:07] the only people [1:49:08] that can do something [1:49:09] about it [1:49:09] are the government [1:49:10] and their failure to act [1:49:13] to put any deterrence [1:49:15] in place [1:49:15] it's putting [1:49:19] when you're putting [1:49:20] undocumented people [1:49:22] mainly young men [1:49:24] into communities [1:49:26] that are not vetted [1:49:28] we don't know [1:49:28] who they are [1:49:29] they're undocumented [1:49:30] we don't know [1:49:31] their criminal background [1:49:32] communities [1:49:34] especially women [1:49:35] are feeling unsafe [1:49:38] yeah [1:49:38] and that's the problem [1:49:40] and we know [1:49:41] they are people [1:49:42] however [1:49:43] what about our safety [1:49:45] what about the safety [1:49:47] of our children [1:49:47] I get that [1:49:48] but again I'll ask you [1:49:49] and I'll ask you Ryan [1:49:50] as well [1:49:50] some people may say [1:49:52] why are there protests [1:49:53] outside these hotels [1:49:54] why aren't you protesting [1:49:55] against the politicians [1:49:56] in Westminster [1:49:57] the migrants themselves [1:49:59] the asylum seekers [1:50:00] we don't hear from them [1:50:01] very often [1:50:02] and they haven't been processed [1:50:04] so we don't know [1:50:05] their reasons for being there [1:50:06] yet they are bearing [1:50:08] the brunt of [1:50:09] this anger [1:50:10] and is it being misdirected [1:50:12] I think it is [1:50:13] being misdirected [1:50:14] just a little bit [1:50:14] I think that [1:50:16] there are a lot of [1:50:17] asylum seekers [1:50:17] which are genuinely [1:50:18] seeking asylum [1:50:19] they don't want to harm anyone [1:50:20] they don't want to hurt anyone [1:50:22] they genuinely just [1:50:23] are fleeing for their lives [1:50:24] it's just the minority [1:50:25] which is making this [1:50:26] very unfortunate for them [1:50:28] and I think a lot of this [1:50:29] unrest can be directed [1:50:31] towards the government [1:50:32] because they are [1:50:33] the ones that empower [1:50:34] they're the ones that [1:50:35] can do something [1:50:36] about this crisis [1:50:37] yeah [1:50:37] well listen [1:50:38] all the concerns [1:50:39] raised this evening [1:50:40] as part of the debate [1:50:41] legitimate [1:50:42] and good [1:50:43] to put to the people [1:50:44] that say they can fix [1:50:45] the problem [1:50:46] that have the power [1:50:46] well at least one party [1:50:48] has at the moment [1:50:49] but others hope [1:50:49] to have the power [1:50:50] to do something about it [1:50:51] in the very near future [1:50:52] Diane, Ryan and Mia [1:50:53] thank you so much [1:50:54] for being part of the [1:50:54] immigration debate tonight [1:50:55] really appreciate your time [1:50:57] let's just remind you [1:50:59] of some breaking news [1:51:00] this evening [1:51:00] this happened around [1:51:01] half an hour or so ago [1:51:03] we got news [1:51:04] that the American [1:51:04] conservative commentator [1:51:05] Charlie Kirk [1:51:06] has been shot [1:51:08] during an event [1:51:09] in Utah [1:51:09] now Charlie Kirk [1:51:10] is a podcaster [1:51:11] and author [1:51:12] he founded [1:51:13] Turning Point USA [1:51:14] which champions [1:51:15] conservative politics [1:51:16] in schools [1:51:17] colleges [1:51:18] and university campuses [1:51:20] he started it [1:51:21] when he was just 18 [1:51:22] he's still young [1:51:24] he's still in his 30s [1:51:25] he was hit by a single shot [1:51:28] we understand [1:51:28] this was during [1:51:29] a speech [1:51:30] he was making [1:51:31] at Utah Valley University [1:51:33] we understand [1:51:34] that he has been [1:51:34] taken to hospital [1:51:35] his condition [1:51:37] as yet [1:51:37] not known [1:51:38] President Trump [1:51:39] taking to truth [1:51:40] social unhearing the news [1:51:41] to ask people [1:51:42] to pray for Charlie Kirk [1:51:44] describing him [1:51:44] as a great guy [1:51:46] from top to bottom [1:51:47] Sky News understands [1:51:48] a suspect [1:51:49] is in custody [1:51:50] and we'll have more [1:51:51] on that story [1:51:51] in the world [1:51:52] that follows us [1:51:53] here at 9 o'clock [1:51:54] with Yalda Hakeem [1:51:55] well [1:52:00] very keen to stress [1:52:01] that he was not [1:52:02] the star of the show [1:52:03] tonight [1:52:03] it was the audience [1:52:05] that was the star [1:52:05] of the show [1:52:05] your words [1:52:06] not mine [1:52:06] Trevor [1:52:07] it wouldn't be that rude [1:52:08] well [1:52:10] a lot to unpack [1:52:11] from that [1:52:12] first of all [1:52:13] what did you make [1:52:15] of the dynamic [1:52:18] between the audience [1:52:19] and the politicians [1:52:19] because they were [1:52:21] pretty much in your seat [1:52:22] tonight [1:52:22] weren't they [1:52:22] putting them under pressure [1:52:24] yeah [1:52:24] you know [1:52:26] an interesting thing [1:52:26] when we do these things [1:52:28] normally we try to balance [1:52:30] them left and right [1:52:31] this party [1:52:32] that party [1:52:33] but if you were going to [1:52:34] draw a line [1:52:35] of division [1:52:36] in that studio tonight [1:52:38] it wouldn't be [1:52:39] down the middle [1:52:40] left and right [1:52:40] it would be between [1:52:41] the audience [1:52:42] and the people [1:52:45] on my side [1:52:45] of the platform [1:52:47] the politicians [1:52:47] and there's an audience [1:52:49] which is saying [1:52:51] hear what we [1:52:54] feel strongly [1:52:55] about [1:52:55] and we disagree [1:52:56] you know [1:52:57] some of us [1:52:58] thinking immigration [1:52:58] is a good thing [1:52:59] some of us [1:52:59] think it's all trouble [1:53:01] but for god's sake [1:53:03] you guys at least [1:53:04] answer what we are [1:53:06] asking you [1:53:07] and on the other side [1:53:08] you've got politicians [1:53:09] who [1:53:10] given a question [1:53:12] will answer [1:53:14] another question [1:53:15] that they've made up [1:53:16] for themselves [1:53:17] and I think [1:53:18] that in itself [1:53:19] illustrates more [1:53:20] than anything else [1:53:22] why this issue [1:53:23] feels so frustrating [1:53:25] to so many people [1:53:25] it's a real hot potato [1:53:28] issue [1:53:28] isn't it [1:53:29] they're just juggling it [1:53:30] waiting for it to cool down [1:53:31] and it's not [1:53:32] if anything [1:53:32] it's just [1:53:33] you know [1:53:33] getting hotter [1:53:34] and I thought [1:53:36] it was quite interesting [1:53:37] that all of them [1:53:37] agreed on [1:53:38] as our deputy political editor [1:53:39] Sam Coates pointed out [1:53:40] they all agreed on [1:53:41] the fact that [1:53:41] immigration [1:53:42] is a good thing [1:53:43] can bring benefits [1:53:45] but the country [1:53:47] is at a point [1:53:48] now [1:53:48] where the public [1:53:49] just can't see [1:53:50] that point [1:53:51] 70% of people [1:53:52] thinking immigration [1:53:53] has gone too far [1:53:54] in this country [1:53:55] and I think [1:53:56] a lot of that [1:53:57] came across tonight [1:53:57] well I think [1:53:58] it was really striking [1:53:59] that even [1:54:00] supposedly [1:54:01] the most [1:54:02] anti-immigration [1:54:03] party [1:54:04] on the panel [1:54:05] represented by [1:54:06] Zia Yusuf [1:54:07] Zia Yusuf [1:54:09] was [1:54:10] I thought [1:54:11] rather [1:54:11] in some ways [1:54:12] affecting [1:54:13] in the way [1:54:14] he talked about [1:54:15] his own family's [1:54:16] experience [1:54:16] and the fact [1:54:17] that his family [1:54:18] had come [1:54:18] and contributed [1:54:19] to the health service [1:54:20] and they were proud [1:54:21] of that [1:54:22] and I think [1:54:23] that [1:54:23] that was [1:54:25] you're completely right [1:54:26] and Sam is completely right [1:54:27] that that was a thread [1:54:28] that ran through [1:54:29] what I don't think [1:54:30] we quite got some answers to [1:54:32] is [1:54:32] well [1:54:33] who is really valuable [1:54:35] as an immigrant [1:54:36] and who is not [1:54:37] and who is not valuable [1:54:39] who are the people [1:54:40] who are making it [1:54:41] things difficult [1:54:42] who are the people [1:54:43] who are taking more [1:54:44] than they are giving [1:54:44] which is one of the questions [1:54:45] that was raised [1:54:47] and I think [1:54:48] that [1:54:49] if politicians [1:54:50] really want to solve this [1:54:53] and get the heat [1:54:54] out of it [1:54:54] they are going to [1:54:56] have to start [1:54:57] being honest [1:54:58] about what they really think [1:54:59] to people [1:55:00] you know [1:55:01] and it might be [1:55:02] you know [1:55:02] that sometimes [1:55:03] some things [1:55:04] are going to be [1:55:04] fingers are going to be pointed [1:55:06] but in the end [1:55:08] simply continuing to say [1:55:10] we can't really answer your question [1:55:12] what we'd like to do [1:55:13] is to frame it [1:55:14] in some other way [1:55:14] I think that's what's [1:55:16] building up the head of steam [1:55:17] around it [1:55:18] honesty can go a long way [1:55:19] but something that can go even further [1:55:21] is answers and solutions [1:55:23] and I was just talking to [1:55:24] three members of the audience tonight [1:55:26] who were frustrated [1:55:27] that they didn't get [1:55:29] clear answers [1:55:30] to their questions [1:55:32] and one of the key issues [1:55:34] is asylum hotels [1:55:35] and nobody on that panel [1:55:37] had a concrete answer [1:55:38] about what to do [1:55:39] about them [1:55:39] you know [1:55:40] we're in discussions [1:55:41] we're thinking about this [1:55:42] we're thinking about that [1:55:42] the honest answer [1:55:43] if they were going to be honest [1:55:44] was we don't know [1:55:45] we don't know what to do [1:55:46] yeah well the closer we got to it [1:55:49] was I think [1:55:50] the person [1:55:53] this is the reformed person [1:55:54] who said [1:55:55] put them in tents [1:55:57] we'll close the hotels [1:55:58] and put them in tents [1:55:59] I have to say [1:56:00] if we had more time [1:56:02] and I was doing Sunday morning [1:56:03] I think I would have then asked [1:56:04] well is putting people in tents [1:56:07] rather than in hotels [1:56:09] really going to make [1:56:11] that much difference [1:56:12] to the fears [1:56:13] that were raised [1:56:14] by another member [1:56:15] of the audience [1:56:15] about you know [1:56:16] crime [1:56:18] and the safety [1:56:19] of children [1:56:20] and so on [1:56:21] but I thought [1:56:22] the interesting [1:56:23] and a very interesting [1:56:24] point of view [1:56:25] came from [1:56:26] Lisa Smart [1:56:27] she said [1:56:29] very quietly [1:56:30] I suppose [1:56:31] asylum hotels [1:56:32] places [1:56:33] a lot of people [1:56:34] had them [1:56:35] wedding receptions [1:56:37] and so on [1:56:37] and that's partly [1:56:39] what's making this [1:56:39] such a potent issue [1:56:40] such an emotional issue [1:56:42] and yeah [1:56:42] moving asylum seekers [1:56:43] out of hotels [1:56:44] to other places [1:56:45] as an audience member [1:56:46] said [1:56:46] just moves the problem [1:56:47] elsewhere [1:56:48] Trevor thank you very much [1:56:49] Trevor Phillips [1:56:49] our host of the [1:56:50] immigration debate [1:56:51] well that was our debrief [1:56:53] up next [1:56:53] it's the world [1:56:54] with Yalda Hakim [1:56:54] stay tuned