The After Show: The Neighbor from Hell

[0:04] Hello, everybody. Welcome to 2020 The After Show. I'm Debra Roberts. And as always, it's [0:09] a pleasure to have you with us today. We're going to take a deeper look at one of our [0:13] most recent 2020 episodes. And this one, so many people are talking about. It centers [0:19] around an awful story which grabbed headlines when it happened back in 2023. And it also [0:26] gained some notoriety most recently because it was the subject of an Oscar-nominated documentary. [0:31] It's the story of 35-year-old Ajika Owens, who was shot and killed just yards away from [0:38] her own home while protecting her children from what she said was ongoing harassment [0:42] from her neighbor, Susan Lorenz. That fatal gunshot was fired on June 2, 2023, after what [0:49] had been a long-simmering dispute between Lorenz and many neighbors, really, in the [0:55] community about where Ajika's kids and all the other kids in the neighborhood could play. [1:01] Well, it's a story that's been going on for a long time. And it's a story that's [1:01] been going on for a long time. And it's a story that's been going on for a long time. [1:01] Well, the children would often play games around a small field that was right next to [1:05] Lorenz's home. And sadly, after an incident on June 2, Owens approached her neighbor's [1:11] door with her 9- and 12-year-olds at her side to confront her neighbor about some behavior [1:16] that had been displayed. And she was met with a bullet, which killed her. [1:22] This was a story that just, I think, everybody just couldn't get over. And I went down to [1:27] Ocala, Florida, to report this story for 2020. [1:30] And I had a chance to walk through the neighborhood where Ajika was raising her [1:34] four children. And I had an opportunity to speak with her son, her mom, Pamela. [1:40] But her 12-year-old son, Izzy, is the one who just, I think, grabbed all of us. He had [1:46] witnessed his mom's shooting, and he just touched our hearts. [1:49] Ajika was described to me by so many people as an ideal mom, a kind and hardworking person, [1:55] her children the center of her life. And she had moved to Ocala from Fort Lauderdale, [2:00] a very busy area, to a very quiet, affordable community, and ultimately wanted to raise [2:06] her family there. But little did she know the danger that was lurking just next door [2:12] to her. [2:13] We are joined today by 2020 producer Stacey Newman. First of all, look at you. You look [2:18] fabulous. [2:19] Thank you. Just trying to keep up with you, Debra. [2:21] Thank you for being here and doing this. [2:24] You and I have been following this story. This mom who was shot on the doorstep of her [2:28] neighbor's house. [2:30] It was a home, and people tried to make sense of it. What was it about it for you that really [2:35] caught your attention? [2:36] Yeah, well, I am from Florida, so I heard about the story immediately when it happened. [2:40] And what really blew me away about it, besides what turned out to be the senseless violence, [2:45] was the fact that the shooting had happened through a locked, deadbolted door. And then [2:50] discovering that the victim, Ajika Owens, she was bigger than life. With these four [2:58] children and people in this community, she seemed to reach out to her. She seemed to [3:00] really just enjoy her and the kids. So really just diving into understanding who she was, [3:07] was something that stuck out to me. [3:08] And one of the things that struck me Stacey, was the kids would run around the neighborhood. [3:12] A small community. It was almost like this bygone era, right? Of kids who were just hanging [3:18] out in this town. [3:19] Yeah, a lot of nostalgia. Even for me, I remember being a child in Florida in the summer, just [3:24] running around and riding her bike and roller skating and having a good time outside. And [3:30] to just see like that American nostalgia, [3:33] but then the innocence just being ripped away [3:36] from this tragedy. [3:37] Yeah, and this was one that really was so tragic [3:40] because there was this buildup, [3:41] there was this feud sort of happening in the neighborhood. [3:44] I really wanted to get a sense [3:47] of what this community was all about. [3:49] So you and I got in the car [3:50] and drove and saw the neighborhood. [3:52] What had you found out about the neighborhood there? [3:55] I mean, really and truly what you saw in the show, [3:58] as you described the nostalgia, [3:59] this was a very active community. [4:01] And when we were there, [4:02] you could kind of see this still hung over the air there. [4:05] There weren't as many children playing in the area. [4:07] I think at least one of the neighbors still lived there, [4:10] but it had really changed the complexion of this neighborhood [4:13] that was just so close knit. [4:16] And when you think about Ocala, [4:18] for some of us who don't know Florida that well, [4:21] I was really surprised at beautiful horse farms [4:24] as you were approaching. [4:25] As you approached the neighborhood, [4:26] there was beauty and a quiet community. [4:29] It's renowned as sort of like this horse country. [4:33] So even just a mile away from where this tragedy took place, [4:36] beautiful landscapes, it's almost picturesque. [4:39] And then you kind of turn into this community. [4:42] And I think it just, [4:43] I think maybe you felt the same way, right? [4:45] The levity of it, how it just lands in you [4:48] when you turn in and just see these two little streets. [4:51] And then that field, [4:52] that became like the center of what led to this tragedy, [4:56] this tiny field that these kids were playing on all day. [4:59] It was just like right there. [5:00] And Susan just couldn't stand it. [5:01] She worked from home [5:03] and seemed to be really bothered by the noise. [5:05] What did the neighbors tell you? [5:07] Because you had a chance to go and talk to the neighbors [5:09] about that tension that was building up [5:11] and what the dynamic was like between Susan and Ajaka [5:15] and the rest of the folks. [5:16] I think the easiest way to explain it [5:18] that the neighbors said is Susan was a nuisance neighbor. [5:21] She was always bothered by any of the children [5:24] running around, having a good time, [5:26] throwing football, riding bikes, dancing, [5:28] just having fun out there. [5:30] It seems like she really wanted to be living more [5:33] in a quiet retirement community. [5:35] And that's not what this was. [5:37] So I think as with anything, [5:39] once you see something, you can't unsee it. [5:41] And I think Susan couldn't unsee or unhear [5:44] the children running around, screaming, yelling, [5:47] just having a good time. [5:48] And that bothered her incessantly. [5:51] Yeah, just the noise that many people think of [5:54] as just fun noise of kids squeaking and screaming [5:57] and all of that in the community bothered her. [5:58] Exactly, but for her, she took it to the place [6:02] of not having conversations with the parents [6:05] and just kind of squashing it there. [6:06] She would call the police. [6:08] So she would call the police, [6:09] they would come to the home. [6:10] Typically nothing really happened. [6:11] There were no arrests or nothing was ever happened legally [6:14] whenever she would make these calls, right? [6:16] I mean, as you see in the show, [6:17] one of the deputies is like, [6:19] I don't ever think we got a call about children playing. [6:23] You know, something as simple as children playing, [6:25] but she seemed to think that something should be done [6:28] because- [6:28] The crux of the argument was over these no trespassing signs [6:32] that she'd asked the landlord to put in. [6:34] But because as we saw in that field, when we went out there, [6:36] there's two sides to that field. [6:38] So all the children just went over to the other side [6:41] and that neighbor was completely fine with it [6:44] and would play with the children. [6:45] She didn't want them there at all. [6:47] And she was a renter. [6:48] There was the no trespassing sign, [6:50] which this was the source of a lot of aggravation. [6:52] She had that installed [6:54] and police actually sort of had her number. [6:56] And you see in the episode that they were getting a, [6:58] annoyed by it, things seem to be really boiling [7:01] and the kids were playing and Susan, [7:04] and you heard in our episode or you saw in our episode, [7:06] the kids were playing and Susan threw something [7:09] and that was what sort of set things off. [7:11] The kids came home to tell her [7:13] and then things started to sort of snowball from there. [7:16] The snowball really started with roller skates [7:19] and an iPad that one of Ajika's sons had left in the grass [7:23] near Susan's property. [7:25] And that's what she called police first saying, these kids, [7:28] they're trespassing, [7:29] they're leaving their toys all over the yard. [7:31] And then Ajika confronted her [7:34] because she threw a roller skate [7:35] and she wanted to go over there [7:37] and talk to Susan about the confrontation. [7:39] And then we know of course, sadly how that ended. [7:41] How that ended. [7:42] But she was a mom who was going to complain to a neighbor [7:45] and say, hey, you can't do this. [7:47] That was the intention. [7:48] She's got her two kids with her. [7:51] And let's talk about this because what you see [7:54] in the episode and it's just so heartbreaking, right? [7:57] She's gonna confront Susan. [7:58] So Ajika is sort of yelling for her to come out on the stoop [8:02] and take us through how that sort of played out [8:05] because it happened so quickly. [8:07] Oh, it's all about two and a half minutes. [8:09] It just happened so fast. [8:11] And I think it's important for people to know too [8:14] that Ajika had gone over to Susan's house before [8:18] to talk to her about these complaints she had [8:20] about the children and had knocked on her door once before [8:23] but Susan never opened the door. [8:25] And Susan also didn't grab a gun in that room. [8:28] It was not that prior incident. [8:30] But for some reason that day, she decided to shoot [8:33] through the door and she had already called police. [8:35] They were on their way and she didn't wait. [8:38] So she shoots through the door [8:39] and Ajika's children were standing nearby. [8:42] Nobody can believe this has happened. [8:44] She backs away from the door. [8:46] She ultimately falls down on the ground and she's struck. [8:50] And I mean, people are just shocked. [8:52] And everybody talked about Susan appearing confused [8:56] when this all happened. [8:57] I mean, Ajika is taken to the hospital. [8:58] Right. [8:58] she's eventually pronounced dead and they're saying that you know you know her behavior is [9:04] kind of you know something that's sort of symbolic of what we would see throughout the investigation [9:08] she's acting confused but police know that there's been this encounter that the shooting has happened [9:14] and susan you know which speaks again to what some of ashika's friends told us that [9:21] susan felt like the police were there for her so she felt this shooting was justified [9:28] and acted like it throughout the entire investigation as if police are going to [9:32] come and back her story back her story so when they put handcuffs on her you can see that confusion [9:37] you know when they put her in the car you could see that confusion of wait a minute i'm being [9:43] detained for this i'm the one who was threatened i'm the one who was in fear of my life and meanwhile [9:49] here's ashika collapsed on the ground and susan hasn't even asked if she's okay susan was actually [9:55] surprised when she was arrested and that was [9:58] what was shocking to me even sort of blamed police for not helping handle the situation [10:03] well you know in her mind and the way she used police her point of view was if you had actually [10:09] arrested her prior to this incident this wouldn't have happened that was astounding to me that she [10:16] was laying it off she was laying it off on the police because after these many calls over and [10:20] over complaining about the children and complaining about ashika owens if if police had pressed charges [10:28] if police had arrested her she would be alive today and none of this would have happened and [10:32] arrested her for what that becomes the big question were your children playing in the yard [10:37] which is the point of this whole thing like they would tell her over and over we can't do anything [10:43] more than take your complaints put a police report together give you a case number and that just [10:49] wasn't good enough for susan well this story um you know quickly spread like wildfire everybody [10:54] was talking about it so i want to talk about the interrogation because once you get to the [10:58] police did take susan in um that interrogation of her was also just unbelievable and you'll see it [11:05] in our episode so we're going to take a quick break and when we come back stacy will help us [11:09] go through this interrogation and why it was so significant so don't go anywhere welcome back to [11:24] 2020 the after show we are joined today by 2020 producer stacy newman who worked with me on our [11:30] most recent story for 2020 and we're discussing the episode the tragic story of ajaka owens [11:37] who was caught by her own neighbor susan lawrence after attempting to defend her children who had [11:43] been playing in an area right near susan's home um stacy this is a story i think i won't forget for [11:50] a long time especially after meeting um the family members it took police four days to arrest susan [11:57] lawrence people were talking about this they they sort of knew that this had happened it seemed [12:01] pretty clear i don't want to use the term black and white because that sort of factors the whole [12:07] racial motivation so we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back after this [12:07] so we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back after this [12:08] in here too but it did seem pretty clear to many who were observing this [12:12] but investigators said they needed to understand if this was justifiable under the [12:17] stand your ground law and many people had heard about that law in florida [12:21] or after the trayvon martin case george zimmerman had claimed it was stand your ground [12:25] so that was something that factored in here but but people were not patient and they weren't [12:30] believing that this was at all remotely connected to a standard ground law and stand your ground [12:38] right to use deadly force if you feel you're eminently in danger without the duty to retreat [12:44] but susan was already in her home and even on the 911 calls she made that you will hear in the show [12:50] she said she was standing behind a locked door yeah and you you mentioned earlier how she was [12:56] actually shocked that she was put under arrest when eventually police did arrest her this was a [13:01] woman who felt that she was completely justified didn't seem to see anything wrong and that that's [13:06] we talked about that in our podcast we talked about that in our podcast we talked about that in our [13:08] piece about her mindset that this woman really felt that she was victimized even though her [13:12] neighbor was the one who was dead at her hands the neighbors told us she was a nuisance neighbor [13:18] she was always complaining she was always calling the police what struck me in in the piece was that [13:22] susan um first said that she just was trying to just scare ajaka she shot she shot the gun [13:29] because she wanted to scare her um not really seeming to take responsibility for the fact that [13:34] she had fired a fatal bullet and then there were kind of inconsistencies between the two of them [13:36] and then there were kind of inconsistencies between the two of them and then there were kind of inconsistencies [13:38] and then there were kind of inconsistencies in the way she described [13:40] in the way she described what had happened you know it was they were asking her very specific [13:44] what had happened you know it was they were asking her very specific questions and something she'd say [13:45] questions and something she'd say yes i did that and then no i didn't do that but she used certain [13:49] yes i did that and then no i didn't do that but she used certain words and to try to kind of make [13:51] words and to try to kind of make her defense immediately but because of the treatment she [13:54] her defense immediately but because of the treatment she was receiving which sometimes the [13:56] was receiving which sometimes the police told us behind the scenes was tactical to get her to [14:00] police told us behind the scenes was tactical to get her to cooperate and to relax and to think that [14:03] cooperate and to relax and to think that she was going to get off scot-free she believed she was [14:06] not going to be arrested or put on trial for this because in Susan's mind, she's the victim, [14:14] not Ashika Owens and not her children. We wanted to know who this woman is. We had a hard time [14:18] getting anybody to sit down and speak with us on her behalf. You would see in the trial, [14:23] there were a few people that knew Susan, like from her church, her sister, but they declined [14:29] to be interviewed. We did know some things and she had come from the Northeast and moved to Florida. [14:34] And we did know that, I mean, in fact, I think she made a point of the fact that she said, [14:39] well, I had friends of all races and so forth. So she wanted to make clear that this wasn't [14:43] a racial incident. People felt it was racial violence. She used racial slurs, the way she [14:48] spoke to the children, calling them slaves and get on the Underground Railroad. So it was very hard, [14:56] number one, as a producer to put this together and realize kids so young had to deal with that [15:02] type of verbal trauma. Yeah. [15:04] You know, we had to deal with that. [15:04] Yeah. [15:04] We've experienced that. [15:05] And I think that's kind of interesting, too, for you and for me to cover this story, [15:10] because obviously both of us being Black women, Ajika being a Black woman, you having lived in [15:16] Florida and to your point, you know, a woman who has used racial slurs. And I think for us, [15:22] there's something a little heavier about covering a story like this and seeing a family and the [15:26] trauma because, you know, I think I experienced it a little bit differently than maybe one of my [15:31] other colleagues might. And you probably did, too. [15:34] Absolutely. And, you know, Debra, I think what really was profound to me was it was hard, [15:41] especially when you were doing some of those interviews with family. It was so hard not to [15:45] see this could be one of my family members. This could be someone we know. [15:50] Absolutely. And I want to get to that in just a minute. But let's talk about Susan's charges, [15:55] because after she was arrested, she was ultimately charged with manslaughter with a firearm. You know, [16:00] the family and the community was really frustrated. And we had a chance to speak, [16:04] I think, with their attorney, Anthony Thomas, who actually had been born and raised in Ocala. He was [16:09] actually living in Tallahassee now. But Ben Crump, the noted civil rights activist and attorney, [16:17] had contacted him and said, I hear there's something that's happened down there in Ocala. [16:22] And this guy, Anthony, was very, very interesting in sharing what he knew about the neighborhood, [16:28] what he knew about the community. It really spoke to him and resonated with him. And the frustration [16:33] that they felt in the community. And I think that's something that I think is really, really [16:34] significant in terms of just how strong this investigation was. In terms of how the community [16:40] felt that this investigation was moving slowly. You know, there are still to this day are people [16:45] who believe there should have been at least a second degree murder charge here. Prosecutors [16:49] thought otherwise. What I thought was interesting, though, is Anthony made a very interesting point [16:54] to me. When I sat down with him, that sometimes you've got to go with charges that you feel that [16:59] you can prove. And ultimately he was in line with that he wanted something that could be proven a [17:04] We're going to take you inside the courtroom in this case with Susan Lawrence, and we'll [17:09] discuss the powerful interviews that Stacey just alluded to that we had a chance to have [17:14] with Ajaka's mom and her son. [17:16] So don't go anywhere. [17:17] We're going to share more about that. [17:29] Welcome back to 2020 The After Show. [17:31] I am sitting here with our talented producer, Stacey Newman, and we're talking about the [17:36] heartbreaking story of Ajaka Owens, who was shot by her own neighbor, Susan Lawrence, [17:42] after attempting to defend her children, who had been playing in an area right near Susan's [17:47] home. [17:48] One of her sons was the one who ran to a neighbor to call police, and, oh, Stacey, I had a chance [17:54] to sit down, and you were there right with me when I spoke with Israel, called Izzy, [17:58] who is now 12 years old. [18:00] And I got to tell you, this kid is something else. [18:03] His family calls him Pastor Israel because he's this very well-spoken, sort of religious [18:09] kid, kind of an old soul. [18:12] I have to tell you, he just took my breath away, just by, not just by the strength, but [18:17] the poignant, I mean, when he sat down, and of course, like any Southern kid, he said, [18:21] yes, ma'am, to me, no, ma'am, when I said, why don't we sit here, yes, ma'am. [18:24] But immediately when he opened his mouth and just started to talk about the pain that he [18:29] was feeling, but yet he's focused not on what he's lost, but what he has, which is [18:34] his grandmother in his life, Ajaka's mom, who was there with us at the time. [18:39] Oh, my, I mean, we barely had any dry eye. [18:42] As we were doing this interview with him. [18:44] I mean, it's very rare that I watch an interview when I'm crying or just emotional, and it [18:51] was hard to get through that. [18:52] And I think I told you afterwards, I'm like, I don't know how you got through that, because [18:57] he is so impressive and dynamic. [19:01] And to see the impact of, I know who he's going to become in this world. [19:06] And as you said, like, looking forward, looking at what he has. [19:11] I just, I was. [19:12] I was blown away. [19:14] Yeah, I was blown away, too. [19:15] And I will think about him, I think, for a very long time, because this is a kid who's [19:19] lost his mother, lost his world in that way, because the kids were Ajaka's world. [19:24] And for him to be able to say that, you know, I'm trying to be strong for my siblings, there's [19:30] a reason that things happen. [19:32] You know, all of those things that you might hear an adult say, that, you know, I'm making [19:36] the most of my circumstances, even though it's difficult. [19:39] I'm grateful that I have my grandmother in my life. [19:42] And to Ajaka's mom, Pamela, whom I also had the opportunity to sit with, and her heartbreak [19:48] having lost her daughter. [19:49] This is a mom, you know, had her daughter fairly young. [19:52] So she's still young as she's in her 50s. [19:54] She's, her kids are grown. [19:56] She now is embarking on a new life. [19:59] She wanted to be a flight attendant. [20:00] So she was living in Atlanta because she decided she wanted to see the world and do something [20:04] new. [20:05] And literally, as she was beginning that career, about to get on a flight, she gets a call [20:11] that something's happened to her. [20:12] Her daughter and her interview just was something else too. [20:15] When you, when you met her and you began to talk to her, even in the beginning to get [20:19] her to talk with us, what was that like for you? [20:22] I can just see the beautiful soul of that family, you know, and she's so soft-spoken, [20:28] but strong and mighty. [20:30] And I can see how much of a pillar that she is in Ajaka's life before her tragic passing, [20:39] but also for these four children and to see the preacher and the teacher. [20:43] That is an Izzy. [20:45] And you know, the impact of her is vital to how you see those kids moving forward, because [20:53] that's one of the questions a lot of people had is how are they doing now? [20:56] How are they doing now? [20:57] And it's important to see that. [20:59] And also there was this moment where you were interviewing Izzy and she was in the corner [21:08] just weeping, weeping. [21:10] I caught her out of the corner of my eye. [21:13] And yeah. [21:13] And you can see the combination of grief and pride in her, grief of that he's going through [21:19] this, grief they're going through this, but also pride in how he's coming along. [21:23] How he's coming along and what she's doing. [21:24] Well, she's raising these kids. [21:26] And that's another part of the tragedy of this story, that she is raising these grandkids [21:31] who she just wanted to adore and love and visit from time to time, but now she's missing [21:36] her daughter. [21:37] And that was just something I think that was profound for all of us. [21:41] And what I thought was interesting is that Pamela... [21:43] Pamela has done what a lot of families, but particularly moms do. [21:47] I've interviewed a lot of moms who've lost children, and she is trying to honor her daughter's [21:52] legacy. [21:52] She has co-founded an organization, and it's all about offering resources to people who [21:58] might be experiencing racial violence and folks who need different things in their lives [22:03] to be able to get back up and get moving after something like this, right? [22:08] Absolutely. [22:09] Just as a way to honor Ajika Owens starting this. [22:13] She's got her own family. [22:15] She's at a family foundation. [22:17] But this is now her call. [22:19] This is now her purpose, besides raising these grandchildren, is that she doesn't want to [22:25] see other families go through what they had to go through, and any way that they're able [22:30] to support families, whether it's legal support, financial support, burial support, advocacy. [22:36] She wants her daughter's memory to mean something. [22:41] And this should bring awareness. [22:43] partner. They are down there riding in Florida, Stacey. So great. So great to spend some time [22:47] with you. Thanks for doing this. How was it? It was great. It was great. It wasn't as bad as you [22:51] thought it would be. I just pretended we were in the car again. Just put it on microphone. There [22:55] you go. There you go. Well, we'll jump in the car another time and do another story. Stacey Newman, [23:00] so great to have you here. And thank you for being here with us and joining us for this podcast [23:04] episode. You can watch our latest 2020 episodes, as you know, on Friday nights on ABC. So make [23:10] sure you come back and you can stream episodes like this one anytime on Disney Plus and Hulu. [23:16] Have a good day, everybody.