Starmer: Police must have feared for their lives in Golders Green attack — BBC Radio 4 Today

[0:00] Prime Minister, thanks for joining us in the Today Programme studio. [0:02] Thank you for having me. [0:03] You went to the scene of this latest attack on Jews and on the Jewish community. [0:09] I know you met the police officers who detained the man. [0:12] What impressions did you come back with? [0:15] Well, a very deep impression of a community that is very concerned, [0:21] very anxious about their safety, their security, [0:26] their ability to express who they are on their identity, [0:30] whether that's in their schools, sometimes in the NHS, in their synagogues, [0:37] but in their community on their streets. [0:39] It definitely feels that there's a real sense of urgency in how we respond to this now. [0:44] That is why I immediately had an emergency COBRA meeting to coordinate the response, [0:51] including with the police, and to make sure the security issues were in place. [0:55] I brought together criminal justice agencies because I feel very strongly [0:59] that we have to show that justice is swift, it's visible, it's effective to restore confidence. [1:05] We have to take wider powers. [1:08] Yes, we've put more money into security, so there's more police. [1:12] And certainly, when I was there this week, the sense of the police presence is really important. [1:17] And it needs to be not just a surge for a few weeks, but something much longer term than that. [1:23] And you'll pay for that. [1:24] And we'll pay for that, yes, and we've indicated that. [1:26] But there's a wider piece here, Nick, that I think is really important, [1:31] which is too many people, I think, either don't see anti-Semitism or don't want to see anti-Semitism. [1:38] And an example I would give is the repeated marches that we have now. [1:42] Now, I'm a big defender of freedom of expression, peaceful protests. [1:47] But when there are chants like globalise the Intifada, that is completely off limits. [1:55] That should be prosecuted. [1:57] And anybody who's on a march where that chant is happening needs to really question themselves. [2:03] And we need to be really clear about that. [2:05] That is a chant which is very, it feels, I think, to the Jewish community, very, very dangerous. [2:13] And I think those instances should be prosecuted. [2:16] We need to look at some of the banners, etc. [2:18] But there's also a wider argument that I was making on Thursday when I went to Golders Green [2:24] and to Kenton Synagogue the week before, which is we often say in response to [2:29] incidents like this that we stand with our Jewish community. [2:33] And we do and we will. [2:35] But this has to be our fight as well. [2:37] This is about what sort of country we want to live in. [2:41] And I want to live in and I want to be leading a country where people can express their identity. [2:47] They can follow their faith and their religion without fear. [2:51] And so it's a fight for all of us. [2:53] It's about the country we want to live in. [2:56] So are you saying that you want to hear more voices raised because what did we see after that incident? [3:04] We saw some people criticise the police for the way they'd behaved. [3:07] Yeah, I want to tackle this one head on because when I was in Golders Green this week, I met the two officers who had apprehended the attacker. [3:21] And I won't put words into their mouth, but I want everybody just to imagine what it might be like. [3:31] You're trying to arrest someone who has already attacked two people and has no regard for life. [3:36] We know that tasers were fired. I know from my own experience with the police that there are only two shots in a taser. [3:45] And once you've shot them, there's nothing left. [3:48] There's a guy on the ground. He's got a rucksack on. [3:52] And I don't know what was going through the mind of those officers. [3:55] But if I was there, I'd be thinking he's going to detonate something. [3:59] He's going to blow me up and everybody around here. [4:02] And in those circumstances, I think you can quite see why what could have gone through their mind is we need to do whatever we can. [4:10] To disable this guy. [4:12] Now, when I then see Zach Polanski come out and retweet or support a criticism of that, I think it's disgraceful. [4:22] I think it's disgraceful. [4:24] I've no doubt in my mind that those officers probably thought their own lives were at risk. [4:28] And if you see the footage, there's a lot of people in the scene as well. [4:33] Now, that didn't turn out to be the case, thankfully. [4:36] And for politicians to wade in, as Zach Polanski did, is disgraceful. [4:41] He's not fit to lead any political party. [4:44] Well, we'll give him the chance to answer when he does his interview on the Today programme. [4:49] Now, you've talked about policing more broadly. [4:53] You've talked about wanting to have a more robust approach to policing of protests, in particular to some of these chants. [5:00] Before we talk about the detail, answer the criticism of those in the Jewish community, and you heard them when you arrived, call you Starmer the Jew-harmer. [5:12] They call you a traitor. [5:13] And I think the reason they say this is to say, we've been feeling this ever since the massacres of October the 7th. [5:21] We've been feeling this since last October's Manchester synagogue attack. [5:26] We've been feeling it since the massacre on Bondi Beach. [5:29] Where were you when that was happening? [5:32] Why are you only saying it now? [5:34] Well, firstly, let me acknowledge the depth of feeling. [5:39] So I'm not here to criticise that in any way. [5:42] I think many people in the Jewish community are feeling very scared, very fearful. [5:50] And obviously that's being expressed in different ways. [5:54] And that's the way I understand this. [5:57] It's not right to say we haven't done anything. [6:00] There have been a number of measures taken. [6:02] In fact, the enhanced police security in Golders Green has been in place for some time. [6:09] And it was made clear to me when I was there this week that that is welcome. [6:14] And it was for that reason that the police officers were on the scene as quickly as they were because of that enhanced police. [6:20] Same in Kenton. [6:22] I talked to lots of people in the community when they were there within half an hour of the incident. [6:25] They saw your speech problems and they said it's full of we will. [6:28] We will do this. [6:28] We will do that. [6:29] We will do that. [6:30] And they thought, well, why hasn't he said we have done this? [6:32] So let's let's do protests because you raised protests as a source of concern. [6:37] We know you've got a review going on into the law. [6:40] We know that the decisions day to day are not for you. [6:43] They're for the head of the Met, the chief police officer in the capital. [6:46] But in terms of you as prime minister and your principal, are you saying I want to police the language used on marches more toughly? [6:57] Yes. [6:57] Or are you saying I want to stop some protests altogether like they, for example, did in France? [7:03] I think certainly the first and I think there are instances for the latter. [7:08] I do think I don't want to get involved in operational policing. [7:11] But I think when you see, when you hear some of those chants, globalise the intifada with the one that I would pick out, then clearly there should be tougher action in relation to that. [7:20] Now, that's not a discussion that has only been had this week in response to this awful incident. [7:26] That is a discussion we've been having with the police for some time in relation to the repeated nature of the marches. [7:35] Many people in the Jewish community have said to me it's the repeat nature. [7:38] It's the cumulative effect. [7:40] Now, I accept that, which is why we intend to deal with cumulative effects. [7:44] We are having a moratorium because there's been a call, as you know, from your independent advisor on terrorism, Jonathan Hall. [7:49] He says it's time for a moratorium on protests. [7:52] I think it's time to look across the board at protests and the cumulative effect. [7:58] I think it's time for, I would say, some people protesting to just reflect on what the Jewish community is going through and the overall impact that this is having. [8:11] And that's why I say... [8:11] But forgive me, you sound like a man prime minister who's not there yet. [8:14] You've got to take advice. [8:15] You've got to consult. [8:15] Well, you are ready to say some of these marches, some of these protests need to stop altogether. [8:23] We need to look at what further powers we can take. [8:26] And we need the... [8:27] This is why it's very important. [8:29] This is the whole of society response. [8:31] Too many people are not seeing anti-Semitism or they don't want to see it. [8:35] And that we have to make that argument. [8:37] Speak to them. [8:39] There'll be some young people listening to this, older people too, who say, [8:44] not only is it my right to go to the streets of London, it is my moral duty to go and protest at what I see happening in Gaza. [8:54] And how dare the prime minister or anybody else imply that I'm in any sense responsible for the stabbing of Jews in the streets of northwest London? [9:03] I will defend the right of peaceful protest very strongly and freedom of speech. [9:11] I have defended those principles all my life and I will continue to do so. [9:16] And so I'm not stepping back from that one bit. [9:19] But if you are on a march or a protest where people are chanting, globalise the Intifada, [9:25] you do have to stop and ask yourself, why am I not calling this out? [9:31] Why am I on a march where this is the chant? [9:35] And I do think it's time for people just to ask themselves that. [9:38] I'm not saying, of course, that there aren't very strong, legitimate views about the Middle East, about Gaza. [9:45] We all have deep concerns about it. [9:48] This government has recognised Palestine just last year. [9:52] So, of course, there are important issues. [9:55] Are you saying that you think people are a bit scared to confront people? [9:58] Because there are people who say that even your language is much tougher with the far right than it is with Islamic extremists. [10:07] You said the other day of the far right that Britain should never surrender to the far right or who use their ideas as a cover for violence and to instill fear. [10:18] Would you be prepared to say Britain should never surrender to Islamic extremists? [10:22] Yes. [10:23] I think it's really important that we call out extremism on the right and on the left in politics. [10:29] And I think for the mainstream majority in politics, that's exactly where they are. [10:35] So I call them out in equal measure. [10:37] And are you happy to say, as others do, let's just be honest about this. [10:41] There are some communities in this country in which as soon as a child is born, they are taught to hate Jews. [10:50] Well, there are some instances of that, of course. [10:54] And we have to deal with extremism wherever we find it. [10:57] But this is a whole of society issue. [11:01] It's a security issue. [11:02] Of course it is. [11:03] But it's a whole of society issue. [11:05] We all have to fight for this together because it is about the sort of country that we want to live in. [11:10] I want to live in the Britain that I love, which is a decent, tolerant, live and let live, diverse Britain. [11:17] But that is contested now in a way that it hasn't been contested in my lifetime. [11:23] We have to fight for the Britain that we believe in with those values, reasonable, tolerance, diverse, live and let live. [11:30] That is who we are. [11:30] That is what it is to be British. [11:33] And I will fight for that with every breath I have. [11:35] Prime Minister, there was a bigger crisis that you were facing even before this latest terrible attack, which is caused by the war with Iran. [11:48] I know you want to talk about some of the things we have to learn. [11:51] But before you do, what is the scale of the crisis you think we are now facing as a country as a result of the fact that the lifeblood of the global economy, oil, cannot travel through the Strait of Hortman? [12:03] The way I'd express it is this. There are moments in history that will define a generation. [12:10] And I think we're in one of those moments. [12:13] The Iran war is not our war. [12:16] We're not getting dragged into it. [12:18] Whatever pressure is put on me, I'm not going to drag the United Kingdom into a war. [12:23] It's not in our national interest. [12:25] But it is impacting us. [12:27] It's impacting our economy. [12:29] It's impacting what happens on our streets. [12:31] So far as the economy is concerned, at the early part of this year, we had a spring statement, which showed that the economy was beginning to turn a corner. [12:42] Inflation was down to 3% and dropping. [12:44] We'd had six interest rates cuts in a row. [12:48] We know now that the growth figures for the early part of the year were better than anyone expected. [12:54] Unemployment had gone down. [12:54] So there was the green shoots of change. [12:58] You'll have seen the forecasts this week, which show a very different picture. [13:02] So the impact on our economy. [13:03] So it's not our war. [13:05] We're not getting dragged into it. [13:06] But is it impacting our economy? [13:08] To use your metaphor, are you saying the green shoots, they've withered, they've died. [13:12] And if we don't do something pretty quickly, they're not growing again. [13:14] It's a much greater challenge. [13:16] And of course, it's not just one war. [13:17] We've got a war on two fronts. [13:19] And I think the person who benefits most from the war in Iran at the moment is Putin, because he will feel emboldened. [13:27] So we've got a war on two fronts. [13:29] And we often talk about the world being in a state of greater conflict than most of us have known in our lifetime. [13:36] That is impacting what happens in Britain. [13:39] My strong view is that many, many voters, many people across the country are frustrated that they haven't seen the change they want to see in this country. [13:51] We've flatlined for the best part of 20 years. [13:53] And I'll tell you why I think that is. [13:55] That is because each time we have a crisis like this, whether it's the 08 crash, whether it's Brexit, Covid, the government of the day aspires to get back to the status quo as quickly as possible. [14:07] But the status quo wasn't working. [14:09] And therefore, we cannot do that again. [14:12] We have to take a different course in response to this crisis. [14:16] Let me be clear. [14:17] You are comparing this crisis with Covid, with Brexit, with the crisis called by Ukraine. [14:24] It is that big. [14:25] You're warning people now, because we saw the Bank of England warn the other day that inflation could be more than 6% by the start of next year. [14:32] Now, a lot of that depends exactly what happens, when the Strait of Hormuz opens or doesn't. [14:38] But that's what you're preparing people for. [14:39] I am. [14:40] And the reason is because we've got a war on two fronts. [14:43] I think we obviously have to pull together countries to get the Strait of Hormuz open. [14:48] And that's what I'm doing in the coalition I'm leading with President Macron that we have been working very hard on in recent weeks. [14:55] And we need to get the Strait opened as quickly as possible. [14:59] But even when that happens, I don't want anybody to think that once the Strait of Hormuz is open, it all returns to normal. [15:05] It won't be like that. [15:07] There's then the war in Ukraine. [15:08] And all the indicators are that the world is going to get more volatile, not less volatile. [15:13] Well, in that context, you have to look at Europe and ask itself, is Europe strong enough? [15:20] I don't think we are. [15:22] And we have to look at our alliances and ask ourselves, are they as they've always been or are some of them under strength? [15:28] So that's the context for this. [15:30] But then the response then has to be not the status quo. [15:35] I'm absolutely clear in my mind about that. [15:37] But a changed Britain, a stronger Britain and a fairer Britain. [15:42] And when I say stronger, Nick, what I mean by that is a country that can withstand these shocks, these global events. [15:51] And that means strengthening our economy. [15:53] Of course, that means investment, technology, getting rid of all the barriers to the economy. [15:57] But it means being much closer to the EU.