Sources: DOJ may release Ghislaine Maxwell interview transcript

[0:00] quote, Jeffrey Epstein is dead. Ghislaine Maxwell is not, end quote. That is how Ghislaine Maxwell's [0:08] opening her argument against the Trump administration's push to unseal some of the [0:14] grand jury transcripts. In a new filing today, her attorneys write this, quote, whatever interest the [0:19] public may have in Epstein, that interest cannot justify a broad intrusion into grand jury secrecy [0:25] in a case where the defendant is alive, her legal options are viable, and her due process rights [0:31] remain, end quote. Maxwell is appealing her sex trafficking conviction and has asked the Supreme [0:37] Court to take her case. She argues that releasing this grand jury information, which she hasn't even [0:43] seen, could prejudice a potential retrial. As that happens, the Justice Department is weighing [0:48] releasing a transcript of the interview that they conducted with the former Epstein accomplice [0:54] last month. Senior administration sources telling CNN that some within the White House worry that [1:00] releasing a transcript would cause this story to once again dominate headlines. That seems fair. [1:08] That seems like a fair worry. This morning, the House Oversight Committee issued a subpoena [1:13] to the DOJ for all of its files related to Epstein, and it sent nearly a dozen other subpoenas to [1:20] individuals for closed-door depositions beginning this month. On that list, both Democrats and [1:26] Republicans, including Bill and Hillary Clinton, James Comey, Robert Mueller, Bill Barr, Jeff Sessions, [1:32] and others. Our panel is going to be here to weigh in, and we're going to get started with CNN [1:38] Chief Legal Affairs Correspondent Paula Reid and CNN Senior White House Correspondent Kristen [1:42] Holmes. Kristen, let me start with you. You and Paula have been reporting on the Trump administration's [1:46] internal debate about whether they're going to release this transcript of Maxwell's interview. [1:52] Again, this was with the Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche. Can you take us inside the White [1:58] House's thinking here? Yeah, Casey, I mean, this is coming at a time where the White House has been [2:03] under intense scrutiny, not just by Democrats, not just by Republicans, but even some of Trump's [2:08] most staunch allies have been pushing back, saying that there's been a lack of transparency when it [2:13] comes to the issue of Epstein, when it comes to the document release in the Epstein case. So this [2:18] would give these White House officials, this would give the White House some kind of credence, and this [2:22] is what I'm being told by people in the inside, to say that we are being transparent, that we're going to [2:27] release this transcript. We're going to release potentially snippets of audio from this lengthy [2:32] interview. We are told there was roughly more than 10 hours of audio between several days of this sit-down [2:39] interview. And when I'm talking to these various sources, they say this. One thing is clear. It's [2:44] not going to be the whole thing. They know that they're going to have to, and they already have [2:47] been, going through, looking at sensitive information, making redactions. But the other part of this [2:52] is they're having a conversation with the Department of Justice. And right now, it's unclear if the White [2:56] House and Department of Justice are on the same page on releasing this. The White House, they want to be [3:01] on the offensive when it comes to whatever information they have regarding Jeffrey Epstein, because they've [3:06] spent a better part of the last several months, or at least since that DOJ memo came out, on the [3:10] defensive. And that's not a place that's good for President Trump or for the White House. They do [3:14] better when they are fighting, not when they are receiving the fight. So this would give them the [3:18] opportunity to get ahead of a narrative. Whether or not they're going to actually do this, though, [3:22] they have been warned by some experts that there are risks here. It remains to be seen how they're [3:27] going to handle it. All right. Paula, so in the request to the judge that's overseeing the possible [3:35] release of grand jury transcripts, this is what Maxwell's attorney wrote, right? Quote, [3:39] Jeffrey Epstein is dead. Ghislaine Maxwell is not. We've read it a couple of times now. [3:45] Tell us more about what they're arguing here. Oh, that is all true. And here, [3:52] the Justice Department has argued that this grand jury material, which is by default confidential, [3:56] should be unsealed because of the enormous public interest in this case. Now, Maxwell's lawyer [4:01] has previously said that they would oppose this move. But a short time ago, in his filing with the [4:05] court, he's revealing more about why they believe that is the case. He's saying, quote, [4:10] public curiosity is insufficient when Maxwell's legal and reputational interests are at stake. [4:16] These factors weigh heavily in favor of preserving the secrecy of the grand jury materials. The [4:22] reputational harm from releasing incomplete, potentially misleading grand jury testimony untested [4:28] by cross-examination would be severe and irrevocable. So there he is specifically referring [4:34] to the grand jury process. It's different than a trial. In a grand jury, a prosecutor goes before [4:38] grand jurors, presents a case. The threshold for indictment is much lower than it is in a courtroom, [4:44] and there's no defense put on. Now, of course, Maxwell was tried in a court of law. [4:49] She was convicted of sex trafficking. But this is part of why the bar is so high to release this kind [4:55] of information. Now, Casey, I also want to note the judge has given victims of Maxwell and Epstein the [5:00] chance to weigh in here. Notably, we've heard from two of them, they didn't oppose the release of this [5:05] material. They push for more transparency as long as victims are protected, and they have until the end of the [5:11] day today to weigh in with their thoughts. All right. Paula Reid, Kristen Holmes, thank you both very much for [5:17] getting us started. Our panel is now here in the arena. CNN political analyst, White House correspondent for the New York [5:22] Times, Solon Cano-Youngs, CNN political analyst, national political reporter for Axios, Alex Thompson, [5:27] CNN political commentators Kate Bedingfield and Brad Todd are here. And we're also joined by CNN [5:31] senior legal analyst Ellie Honig. Thank you guys all for being here today. Ellie, let me start with you [5:38] for your kind of perspective on this. I mean, it does seem as though, you know, if Ghislaine Maxwell is [5:45] looking for fair treatment, that perhaps she does have an argument here. But at the same time, [5:51] from a political perspective, she's not exactly a sympathetic figure. What say you? [5:57] Not at all sympathetic, Casey. But whether you or I like it or not, [6:01] the position legally taken by Ghislaine Maxwell, an attorney, is completely reasonable and [6:07] appropriate. Remember, the job of Ghislaine Maxwell and her attorney is only one thing, [6:11] to protect the legal interests of Ghislaine Maxwell. They are not concerned about the politics of this. [6:16] They're not concerned about transparency. They're not concerned about what the public wants to know. [6:20] The only job here is to protect Ghislaine Maxwell's interest. And to that end, [6:24] Ghislaine Maxwell does still have a live pending appeal. As you said earlier, [6:29] she's trying to get the Supreme Court to take her case. It's a long shot, but it's possible. [6:33] And so the lawyer has to think about, well, if we win, she might get a new trial. And in that case, [6:39] naturally, he would not want this grand jury material out there for the public. Now, [6:43] interestingly, the lawyer for Ghislaine Maxwell was not allowed to review all of this testimony. [6:48] So all that he knows is it's bad for his client because it was used to indict her in the first [6:53] place. And so he's doing the right thing here as a defense lawyer in objecting to this public [6:58] production. So, Ellie, just a quick follow on that. I mean, some of this is clearly playing out [7:05] in the public eye, right? A lot of this is about Ghislaine Maxwell, the Trump administration, [7:10] trying to create favor with the president, or at least figure out some way to get her to be [7:14] treated better because the administration needs or wants something from her. Are those two interests [7:19] in conflict, like what you just laid out and then the public piece of this? [7:24] Yeah, that's interesting because if Maxwell's team calculates, well, we want to please the [7:29] president, we want to please the administration. Why? Because they want to pardon. I mean, [7:32] they've said that in writing in their legal briefs. This position might not please the [7:37] administration. In fact, they're in opposition to DOJ here because DOJ is arguing that this should [7:42] be released. So there's a couple of different calculations, complicated legal calculations [7:46] here going on. But I think Maxwell's goal is to either please the president enough to get a pardon [7:52] or please DOJ enough to get to have DOJ go to a judge and ask for a lower sentence. But you're [7:57] right, Casey. I mean, by opposing this, they have put themselves on the opposite side of the [8:01] administration. And probably on the opposite side of some of the president's most fervent [8:05] supporters. Let's be real about that. I mean, Brad Todd, the other big question here that [8:10] we're talking about is whether this conversation between Todd Blanche, Donald Trump's former [8:16] personal attorney, now the number two at the Department of Justice, it's all on tape. [8:21] They're thinking about putting it out. You're a Republican strategist. Are you interested in having [8:25] them put that out there? I'm agnostic. You know, I am tired of talking about this case [8:36] every other day on television because there's so many more important things that affect every [8:41] American's life out there. But I do get that we're going to talk about it until something comes [8:47] out. Right. I don't know if we'll stop at that point, but that's what's going to happen. [8:51] And so if that's what comes out is Todd Blanche's transcript, then maybe that will be done. [8:57] But is it fair that the only reason we are talking about it is because Donald Trump, [9:01] Mr. President, promises made, promises kept, promised to make these files public, and he hasn't? [9:07] Well, I think probably history, when this is all well over with, we're going to look back and say, [9:11] you know what they should have said was, we'll release it as soon as we can. [9:15] Right. As soon as we legally can. [9:16] January 19th, 2029. [9:18] Yeah, exactly. [9:19] Well, until the grand jury has made for it to be secret, has run its course. Right. [9:23] Until we legally can. That might have been the mistake that was made. [9:27] I think the problem they're going to have here, I mean, there's certainly all of the [9:29] legal calculations that Ellie was talking about. But, you know, from purely from a communications [9:33] perspective, releasing the likely somewhat redacted, if it's ultimately released, grand jury [9:38] testimony, releasing the perhaps selectively redacted transcript of the conversation with [9:43] Todd Blanch, doesn't meet the bar that Donald Trump himself set out at the beginning of this [9:49] conversation, shall we call it, which is releasing the files, making them public. [9:54] So from a communications perspective, I'm not sure you can argue reasonably that this, [9:59] that either of these releases is going to shut this down. It doesn't meet Donald Trump's [10:03] bar for shutting it down. [10:04] And it's not just Donald Trump promising to release them. It's also the people he brought [10:09] into his administration that set these expectations so high by riling the base, by talking about this [10:15] issue. Deputy Director of the FBI, Kash Patel as well, coming in. So they set these expectations [10:22] high. And now you're seeing them meet that pressure at this time. It's interesting because [10:26] a couple of weeks ago, most you talked to, most of the people you talked to in the White House [10:29] were like, we need to move on from this. It seems like in recent days that you've seen [10:34] now a White House that's like, you know, we both want to move on from this to talk about [10:39] the domestic policy package they just passed, but also their base has not given up on this.