RFK talks vaccines, measles in interview with CNN's Dana Bash

[0:00] You have been placing nearly all the blame on the COVID pandemic and the way that the U.S. [0:07] responded to it squarely with Dr. Fauci. But of course, he worked for President Trump. [0:12] Does President Trump also deserve some of the blame? [0:16] Well, you know, President Trump, as you recall, wanted to end the lockdowns. [0:22] I think the thing that did the most damage to our country was the lockdowns. [0:27] The lockdowns that shut down 3.5 million businesses in our country with no due process, no just compensation. [0:35] All of our churches closed our schools and our children are still paying the price for that. [0:42] And yet we had the worst outcome of any country in the world. [0:47] How so? [0:48] We have the highest death rate from COVID of any nation on Earth. [0:51] Well, let me just let me just say, because I've heard you say that before on the death rate from COVID. [0:56] It's not accurate because public health experts say that there is a combination of factors that went into that. [1:05] Higher rates of chronic illnesses, which I know you would agree with. [1:08] Gaps to our health care system and misinformation about vaccines. [1:12] You just said what I said was inaccurate. What I said was accurate. [1:16] We had the highest death rate from COVID of any. [1:18] Well, there are other countries that had higher, but go ahead. [1:23] You can argue about why we had that, but nobody can tell you. [1:30] I mean, we have, as you say, we have the highest chronic disease burden in the world. [1:35] But Anthony Fauci was mismanaging the COVID pandemic and he was doing it under the Biden administration. [1:41] President Trump wanted to end the lockdowns. And in fact, in Anthony Fauci's diaries, [1:48] he talks about how President Trump is calling him every day, trying to get him to reopen the country. [1:54] Yeah. Well, the lockdowns were done by governors. [1:58] I mean, certainly Anthony Fauci and the president had opinions, but the lockdowns were done by governors. [2:03] And largely because they were hearing from hospitals saying that their ICUs were overrun [2:12] and they needed some help while that was happening. [2:14] Well, that's not true. That's just not true. [2:17] It is true. [2:17] What you're saying is not true. No, they were doing it because Anthony Fauci was telling them, [2:22] from the top, you need to lock down. There were ICUs that were empty all over the country, [2:27] including in New York at the height. [2:29] I'm asking you, I'm going to go back to what I asked you at the beginning, [2:34] which is President Trump. And he was the guy in charge. And you tweeted back in 2024 that he let [2:45] bureaucrats like Anthony Fauci shut down the entire country. Again, the president was in charge. [2:52] The president was trying to reopen the country when he left. The country was kept closed for another year, [2:59] almost a year and a half after that. [3:02] Let's talk about how to prevent the next pandemic, because there's a lot of litigating and relitigating [3:09] that I don't think is really helpful to do with regard to COVID. And the question is about so-called gain [3:16] of function, which for people who aren't entirely clear about it, it is a highly risky research process [3:24] that includes manipulating a virus to study how it behaves as it evolves. Now, what scientists say [3:32] is that although it's controversial, it's necessary to prepare for the next pandemic, to get ahead of it, [3:39] to figure out what these viruses can do. You want to end this gain of function research. [3:45] Some scientists say, isn't it better just to put better guardrails around it? [3:50] People have been trying to put guardrails around it for generations, and it hasn't worked. And clearly, [3:58] COVID-19 pandemic and many other global pandemics that we have have come from gain of function [4:05] research. The RSV epidemic that we have, that is the biggest killer of kids in this country today, [4:12] came from these kinds of experiments. The Lyme disease almost certainly came from this kind of research. [4:18] So, and the scientists, who you say are experts, are making the argument that this is necessary for [4:28] pandemic response. Cannot point to one instance in history where research that came out of this kind [4:35] of experimentation has actually provided us something beneficial. So how do you prepare then? How do you [4:44] prepare for the next pandemic? I mean, that's literally part of your job now because experts think it's going to [4:49] happen within the next 10 years again. Yeah, I mean, I think we did virtually everything wrong the last [4:55] time. So what about now? The principal thing that we need to do is we need to listen to what's [5:00] happening to doctors on the ground. There are 15 million frontline physicians around the world. [5:06] They're mainly now connected through the internet. We can tell on the front lines what's working and what's not. [5:14] If we had listened to those doctors during the COVID pandemic, we would have saved potentially [5:19] millions of lives. There were therapeutics out there that were working. There were doctors that [5:25] were having no deaths from COVID and treating, in some cases, thousands of patients. And we weren't [5:31] listening to them. Instead, we were doing the opposite. We were shutting them down. And then, Dana, [5:36] the other thing that I would say is that we need to protect our constitutional rights. That is the [5:44] primary obligation of our country. What does that mean? Well, during COVID, [5:48] we completely dismantled our constitutional rights. We began censoring people in violation of the First [5:53] Amendment. But you're saying what not to do. I'm asking what to do. But I want to talk about- [5:59] Well, that's something to do. That is the number one priority. We protect the Constitution. The [6:05] Constitution was written. Forgive me, but you're just, you're talking about rights. And I'm asking [6:09] about a potential public health crisis that is, that is coming. But I do want to, let's- [6:15] And one of the mistakes we made in the last time was suppressing those rights so people weren't being [6:22] heard. Doctors who were saying you're doing it wrong were being marginalized and vilified. [6:28] Yeah. And- Because, because, again, I really want to move on. [6:32] But you were saying- Yeah, of course you want to move on. Because you were part of the problem. [6:36] No, I wasn't part of the problem. Yeah, there was absolute press [6:40] malpractice. You weren't allowing your job- Mr. Secretary- [6:43] Your job- Your job- Is a fierce skepticism toward authority. [6:48] Yes, I am. And you weren't doing that. You were beating up on people who were dissenting. [6:52] No. Okay. Are you going to, you want to sit here and attack me? Or do you want to have [6:56] conversations about public health? Well, you're sitting here and attacking me. [6:58] I'm not attacking you. I'm asking questions about how to- [7:01] And let me answer the question and I'll tell you. [7:03] That's what I'm trying to do. But I also don't want to use this [7:08] interview to allow you to say things that aren't entirely true. You're talking about therapeutics, [7:13] fine. It is also factually true that the COVID vaccine worked. The COVID vaccine prevented [7:20] deaths. There is data upon data upon data. Let's talk about the measles, please, [7:25] because this is something that is happening as, as we speak. The cases in the US- [7:29] Do you think the COVID vaccine protected children? [7:32] I think that what I have talked to scientists and doctors about- [7:37] You've talked to scientists. Can you look, can you show me one study? [7:40] Yes, I can. [7:41] That shows that- [7:42] I can. [7:42] That shows that children were protected by the COVID vaccine. [7:45] I can tell you that there are- [7:46] That vaccine did more good than harm to children. Can you show me one study that shows that? [7:52] I can tell you that when it comes to the vaccine, there have been studies that show that because of [7:58] vaccine disinformation, disinformation, there could have been 100 to 200,000 lives in the US [8:05] saved. But because people didn't get the vaccine, that's why. I'm not saying that it entirely- [8:10] You are saying nonsense. Let me finish. [8:12] You are saying something that you cannot show me. [8:15] Okay. [8:15] A single study accepts that. [8:16] I am not saying nonsense. [8:17] You are talking what somebody told you. [8:20] Excuse me, let me- [8:22] And you cite me the study. [8:23] What study- [8:24] What study- [8:24] No, what studies are you talking about? [8:26] You're talking about studies that actually don't exist. [8:29] I want to talk about- [8:30] Cite me the study that you're talking about. [8:32] I am not here to defend- [8:32] You say you've seen studies. [8:34] Cite me the study. [8:36] This is not productive. I am not here to defend all of the- [8:39] Let me finish. [8:39] You're talking nonsense. [8:40] You're making assertions you can't support. [8:43] And then when I call you, you're telling me that I'm arguing with you. [8:46] Okay, do you want to talk about- [8:47] You want to talk about assertions that you can't support? [8:49] I'll get there in a second. [8:51] Let me just say, for the record, that I am not saying that the entire way that the COVID [8:57] reaction was accurate. [8:59] It was a scary time and people made mistakes. [9:02] Absolutely- [9:03] You were scaring people. [9:04] Why are you saying that? [9:06] Because that was the job of CNN. [9:08] Okay. [9:08] Okay, stop. [9:09] Was to put the chyrons up about how many people are dying. [9:12] We were trying to be- [9:13] We were listening to the leaders in this country, including the president who had a daily press [9:19] conference, explaining what was going on and trying to listen. [9:22] Were you listening to the scientists, actually? [9:25] Were you reading the science yourself? [9:26] The measles cases in the U.S. just reached a 35-year high. [9:31] The second record-breaking year in a row, 93% of these cases are among the unvaccinated. [9:38] The outbreak is happening on your watch. [9:41] And even before becoming HHS secretary for years, you have been one of the leading voices [9:47] questioning the efficacy of vaccines. [9:51] Do you accept some responsibility for this measles outbreak? [9:54] Absolutely not. [9:56] First of all, this is an international outbreak. [9:59] So, and we're doing better at handling it than any country in the world. [10:04] Mexico has 15 times the amount of measles per capita that we have. [10:10] Canada has four times the amount of measles. [10:13] England has two times the amount of measles. [10:15] Did I cause those measles outbreaks? [10:17] You're the most famous- [10:18] Did I cause- [10:18] Did I cause- [10:18] Did I cause 137,000 cases of measles- [10:21] You're the most famous vaccine skeptic on the planet. [10:24] Let me tell you, because actually, Anthony Fauci in his diaries answers the question [10:29] about why we're having a measles outbreak right now. [10:32] The reason we're having a measles outbreak is because of the COVID lockdowns. [10:36] Because people didn't- [10:37] Children during that period did not get vaccinated. [10:41] And in his diaries, he says this is going to cause massive outbreaks of measles and more [10:48] children, he says this, are going to die. [10:50] Let me finish, because you could accuse me of something. [10:52] Now, let me- [10:53] No, I didn't. [10:53] I asked you a question. [10:54] Yeah, let me give you the answer. [10:56] He says in his diaries, more children are going to die from measles because of these lockdowns [11:03] than COVID. [11:04] So if you want to know, and that age group that should have gotten the MMR when they're 18 months [11:10] and didn't get it, they're the ones being infected. [11:13] The people in this country, and we have stopped the outbreaks at record speed in South Carolina, [11:19] in Texas, in Utah, in Virginia. [11:22] We've done better than any country in the world. [11:23] I dispatch immediately the epidemic intelligence services to those states. [11:28] I get on the phone with the governor, and we stop them in their tracks. [11:31] And nobody else has been able to do that. [11:32] You have a bully poll. [11:33] Let me tell you just one last thing. [11:36] Go ahead. [11:37] The communities that are suffering from measles are almost all religious communities that just [11:44] don't vaccinate. [11:46] The Mennonites have not vaccinated since 1796, since Edward Jenner invented the smallpox vaccine. [11:53] It's hard to blame that on me, as much as you want to blame it on me. [11:56] No, I don't want to blame you. [11:57] I'm asking you because you have a very powerful voice on these issues for people who are skeptical. [12:02] In fact, let me finish. [12:03] Let me finish. [12:03] I've never questioned the efficacy of the MMR vaccine. [12:07] Okay, let me finish. [12:09] What I want you to do is please use your bully pulpit to right now, [12:14] as we're getting close to back to school, are you willing to say to parents who have [12:20] not vaccinated their kids that they should vaccinate their kids for measles because it [12:25] is safe and it will help them save their children's lives? [12:29] We tell people on my websites, my public pronouncement, I'll say right now that [12:34] parents should get their children vaccinated for measles. [12:37] A measles vaccine is effective. [12:40] It stops measles in about 97% of the cases. [12:44] Well, people should get vaccinated. [12:46] Can I ask you, the Wall Street Journal reported that the president is pressuring you [12:50] to conduct studies probing the link between vaccines and autism. Is that true? [12:56] Did you say probing the link? [12:59] I'm just quoting the Wall Street Journal. [13:01] That the president wants you to go further to probe the link between autism and vaccines. [13:08] He certainly does. [13:09] Okay. Now, have you talked to him about medical research that have studied this for 25 years and [13:17] found no link between autism and vaccines? And this is my question here, because I don't want to [13:23] litigate that. My question is, why not, because you are HHS secretary now, why not study what could [13:31] cause autism, which scientists do believe starts with fetal brain development? Why not do some studies [13:39] on that, whether you're an environmental lawyer, whether there are environmental factors that go [13:45] into contributing to a predisposed genetic situation? [13:48] Well, let me say this first. We're doing all those things. And that's one of the ways that we found [13:54] Tylenol. There's 73 studies out there that linked Tylenol exposure during later pregnancy and during the [14:01] perinatal period to autism mindset. But you are wrong when you say that this issue has been studied. [14:12] It has been studied. And you're rolling your eyes, Dana. [14:14] I am, because I don't want to have you use our air to say this. There have been more than 40 studies [14:20] involving 5.6 million people to conclude there is no link between vaccines and autism. This is the head [14:27] of the Committee of Infectious Diseases for the American Academy of Pediatrics. [14:32] Now let me tell you what the Institute of Medicine says, which is the National Academy of Sciences, [14:39] which is the ultimate arbiter on vaccine safety, in which it does not have an interest in this debate. [14:45] It says that none of the eight vaccines that are administered during the first six months of life [14:52] have ever been studied for a relationship to autism. It found two studies, one on the DTP vaccine, [15:00] that showed that it does cause autism, and one on the hepatitis B vaccine, that again suggests that [15:07] it does cause autism. The Institute of Medicine dismissed those two studies because they were based [15:13] on CDC's database. The studies that you're referring to are all for one vaccine, the MMR vaccine, [15:21] or one ingredient, thimerosal. So you are using, you are actually looking at, [15:25] you're starting new studies to try to link autism, but you're also telling me... [15:29] I'm not trying to link autism to anything. I'm trying to find out why has autism gone from... [15:36] Are you also trying to find out how it interacts with people's DNA, what's predisposed [15:42] to have an autistic child? Are you doing both? [15:46] Yeah, but Dana, you probably don't understand this because you're not a scientist, [15:51] but genes don't cause... Well, you're not either. [15:52] Genes don't cause epidemics. I understand. Genes, epidemics. [15:56] They can provide a vulnerability, but they need an environmental exposure. [16:00] That's what I'm asking. Are you studying the environmental exposure? [16:02] We're looking at all the different environmental exposures, but your statement, [16:07] you have been fooled. Your statement that this has been studied is not true. It's categorically not true. [16:14] Not for any of this studies. It is considered... [16:16] Considered by who? [16:19] Decided by every scientist who has studied this. [16:22] That is not true. It is true. [16:23] I can give you hundreds of scientists who have looked at this and say, [16:26] So on the one hand, you are... Do you understand why people aren't getting... [16:28] It's the National Academy of Sciences. What greater authority do you have for that? [16:32] Do you understand why people are not getting measles vaccines? Because they're hearing you say [16:36] that it could cause autism. You're trying to change a subject. [16:38] I'm not. It's very much related. [16:39] You are. Show me one of the studies that's been done on the first eight [16:44] vaccines during the first six months of life. You will not find them. [16:47] The National Academy of Sciences say they do not exist. [16:49] So if that's the case, then why are you telling people to get the measles vaccine? [16:53] Because that is one of the vaccines that has been studied. [16:58] It's the only one that has been studied. [17:01] Do you want people to get the MMR vaccine? [17:04] Yeah, I said that already. [17:06] Okay, so... [17:07] I know you're flustered now, and it is... [17:09] I don't... I'm not flustered at all. [17:11] It is frustrating because people have not been honest with you. [17:13] The reason I'm frustrated is because I, you are the HHS, you are the HHS secretary, [17:20] and you are talking about things that lead to vaccine hesitancy in this country. [17:28] And it is something that causes problems for people when there is not anything... [17:35] Let me ask you something. Do you see your job as ending vaccine hesitancy, [17:41] or do you see your job as telling the truth to the American people? [17:44] I see my job as telling the truth, and the truth is that there is study after study after study. [17:51] It's one of the most studied things out there in science. [17:54] You're repeating it like a parrot. [17:55] You're repeating it like a parrot. [17:58] So are you. [17:58] I've actually read the science. [18:00] You and I come back here and debate the science. [18:03] So you... I'm not debating this for you. [18:05] Of course you won't. [18:06] No, because I'm not debating... [18:07] All you know how to do is repeat things that people told you and say, [18:11] trust the experts. That's what you did during COVID. [18:14] Now we know that Andy Fauci, who was the expert, was lying about everything, [18:19] about masks, about social distancing, about natural immunity, [18:23] about the transmission from the vaccine, about the source of COVID. [18:28] He was lying, and you were punishing people for not trusting the experts. [18:33] And now you're rolling out the experts again to talk about something that you have no personal [18:38] knowledge of. [18:39] Okay. Well, guess what? That is my job, to talk to people. [18:43] Your job is to tell the truth to the American public. [18:45] Yes. Yes. And my job is to get as much information as I can. [18:49] To maintain a posture of serious skepticism for government authority. [18:53] What we were doing in COVID, and still, with regard to these vaccines, [18:59] is getting the best information, the best science that we can, and putting it out there. [19:03] And, sir, what you are doing is causing information to be out there that is not accurate. [19:10] Who was lying to you? [19:11] The National Academy of Sciences, which you just cited in November, said, [19:16] we support the statement that vaccines do not cause autism. [19:21] This is the National Academy of Sciences that you just talked about. [19:23] Look at the National Academy of Science, most recent report. [19:28] Okay. [19:28] And you'll see. [19:29] I want to ask you one other question, because it's something that [19:33] really did help Donald Trump get elected, and that is the Maha movement, [19:37] and specifically the question of processed foods. [19:40] Of what? [19:41] Processed foods, and the fact that people want to feel that their food is safe. [19:47] My understanding is that you're pushing for reforms on food safety and ultra-processed foods [19:52] that have been slowed, in some cases blocked, by people in the administration who are working [19:57] on behalf of the industry. Is that true? [19:58] No, that is not true. [20:02] So you feel that you'll be able to get these reforms done without any problems? [20:06] I think the grass, the two big reforms that you're probably talking about, [20:11] is ultra-processed food definition and the grass standards. [20:16] Yes. [20:16] And they've both gone through extensive interagency process. [20:19] I'm very confident that we will get them both out there within probably a month. [20:24] Well, I'm sorry that this, and that's good news for people who are very moms, [20:29] and I'm one of them who are very worried about making sure that our kids eat food, [20:33] and we eat food that is healthy. I'm sorry that this turned into a very contentious conversation, [20:41] and my job is to try to get the best information out there, and it does concern me when you come in [20:51] and say things that have, I take what you're saying, have been just, yeah, people who have science, [20:57] scientific backgrounds, and who I know have tried to talk to you as well. Thank you for coming in.