President of Ukraine: Volodymyr Zelenskyy

[0:03] Okay, so President Zelensky, thank you so much for talking to me. We'll get into what's happening [0:08] today. But first, I want to go back in time to your great-grandparents, who were among more than [0:15] a million Ukrainian Jews killed during the Nazi occupation, to your grandfather, who joined the [0:22] Soviet Army in 1942, his three brothers who all perished. And I wonder what impact these stories [0:28] had on you growing up as you learnt your family's history? [0:34] I think all the roots and all the stories of families have some important influence on [0:42] your life and it's understandable. And of course, I think that the people who experience the [0:48] war, they are focusing only on very important things. [0:55] This episode is brought to you by IG. If you're listening to this podcast, the chance [0:58] are you're someone who thinks seriously about politics, economics and your own financial [1:04] future. [1:05] You probably also understand that volatility can also mean opportunity. So rather than [1:09] waiting for things to settle down, you're wondering how to invest. And that's where [1:12] IG comes in. [1:13] They've been trusted by British investors for over 50 years through every kind of market [1:18] condition you can think of. IG offers zero commission on your investments, zero account [1:24] fees. And they were just voted best low cost ISA at the 2026 Boring Money Awards. [1:30] If you've been thinking about investing or you want a new investment platform that gives [1:33] you better value, search IG.com today and find out about their latest welcome offers for [1:38] new customers. [1:39] IG trade, invest, progress. Your capital is at risk. Other fees may apply. [1:44] Of course, the time that I had with my grandfather, of course, had influence. Yes, because you speak [1:50] about ordinary things, but basing on your experience of your life. And yes, it has some influence. [1:59] But I think that family education and also friends, school, a lot of things which are very important. [2:10] It's, you know, one of the very important things which has influence on you, on your view and [2:17] on your values and how you see and how you feel the world and your attitude to everything. [2:23] Tell me about your own parents. Happily, they're still alive, but it can't be easy for them at the moment, [2:33] seeing the life that you have to lead and the relentless pressure that you're under. [2:37] No, I, I think my, my mother, of course, it's difficult for her to, to understand, to, to hear, [2:43] to feel, and then it's understandable very much. She's very sensitive. She knows me very well. That's why [2:50] when she see me, for example, on TV or somewhere, and she understands when I'm tired or not, if I'm okay, [2:59] or I have some questions or problems, and of course, all these challenges. Yes, for her, maybe it's more difficult [3:06] even for me. Yes. And for my father, no, he's very supportive. He understands very well. If with my [3:15] mother, we have communication almost each day, she calls me. Yeah. I'm so sorry. I have to call, but [3:21] sometimes I'm too busy. I'm busy. I forget. Yeah. So, but she, she never forgot. She has to call me. [3:30] I don't know. If I am not answering, by the way, I have a problem. It means that I will have 10, [3:36] 20 phone calls from her. So that's why it's better to answer the first. And when you, when you were [3:43] growing up, would they ever have thought that you would end up becoming a politician? No, no, no. [3:50] Why not? Because my family is, you know, like the family of, of scientists, because my father is a [3:58] scientist and scientists are almost, they are anti-political, anti-establishment, anti-parties. [4:07] They never recognized politicians and et cetera. So that's why I said immediately, of course not. So [4:14] the politics is not very important topic in my family. So it was more about, yes, of course, [4:21] it was, we, we discussed with my father and mother, we discussed what's going on in the world, [4:26] but not from the point of politics, from the point of, you know, challenges and, and from the point [4:33] of security and the economy and et cetera. So, but, but no, no politics. [4:39] Okay. And you, you did a law degree, but because comedy was really your thing, you then get into this [4:47] KVN comedy competition. Were you always very, very funny? As a child, were you funny? [4:52] Yes. And we, we have good sense of humor in my family. I always had. My father, he loved to joke. [5:00] Yes. And, and a lot of such things. We, we love to, to read such books and funny stories and comedies, [5:11] just to have fun with family and et cetera. So we are, we are not out of the new rules. [5:18] We're not crumpy, not crumpy. You're a crumpy old man. [5:25] Yeah. So it's normal for us. Then we, I, I had, uh, I studied, uh, in judicial university. [5:32] I studied law because I'm in this profession. It was very popular at this very moment when I, [5:40] when I studied and when I graduated school. And so that's why, that's why, because my father, [5:46] he's a scientist, he's a scientist. He's about cybernetic math. It's all about it. So I studied [5:51] first math with him, but I, what I understood that he's, uh, he's clever than me in this, in math. [6:01] And I said to him, look, I don't want to be the second. That's why I don't want that. You always look [6:09] at me that in math, you, you know more than me and you will know and understand more when even in 10 [6:17] and 20 years, I don't, I don't want this feeling because, because I knew, by the way, I knew math [6:22] very well, but not such well as my father, because he is a professor and this is his life. And then [6:30] that's why I said, no. You do so, you do your own thing. Something different. Yes. And, uh, I wanted to go [6:36] to study in some, some diplomacy in the university, in the capital, but it was, I mean, impossible [6:43] because it was very, uh, we, we didn't have, uh, enough, uh, for this budget because you need some [6:50] money for this to live somewhere and et cetera. So I am from another city, not in from the capital. [6:56] That's why it was difficult. And, uh, but, um, the most understandable was to study in the university, [7:02] uh, to study the law and to go to this, uh, profession and very, everybody in the world [7:10] pretty much now knows that you played a teacher who became president, but you were very much more [7:15] than a comedian. You were a kind of entertainment entrepreneur. You, at one point you were a TV [7:21] executive, you were inventing different formats and so forth. Did you imagine that was going to be your [7:27] life forever or did you, was there always a part of you thinking maybe politics? First of all, [7:33] I loved my profession. What I have before the politics, I was the owner or one of the owners of, [7:40] a big production company, maybe one of the biggest. And of course I, I loved this profession. It was about [7:47] creative things. I was the CEO of this company, not only one of the owners, I was the CEO of the company. [7:54] And then I loved the TV and movie from the point of producing, from the point of marketing and ideas. [8:03] So I, I loved to create the ideas. It was like a business idea and to did it from the very beginning [8:11] to the end. It's like the, you know, that there are positive producers and negative. I think positive [8:17] producers who create the idea and then make the product negative producers, they only [8:23] can find some money. At the end of the process during the editing, they will say it's not good. [8:30] It's something bad and et cetera. So I don't very respect such people because I think that the best [8:36] producer find a way how to choose the great idea or to create it by himself or by herself. [8:45] And, and you also, you met your wife Alina in that period. She was a comedy writer. And I'm just [8:51] wondering before we get onto the really serious stuff, everything in your life right now must feel [8:56] incredibly serious and stressful. Do you, are you still able to, to have a good time with her and to [9:02] have a laugh and actually just to joke about things? Or do you just feel weighed down by the pressure of [9:07] what you're doing? By the way, my wife, before she became my wife, she was a script writer. And I also [9:15] love this profession. And I also was a script writer some years, but now I don't have time, of course. [9:22] Now I'm the president of the country, which is in war. I'm focusing on one thing, on Ukraine. And [9:30] this is my priority. If you are focusing and try to manage different things, you will not be [9:37] successful in one. So that's why I can understand what is the most important for today for me [9:45] and for Ukraine. I work for Ukraine, on Ukraine, but you sometimes not to forget that you can't be [9:53] very serious with everything. Otherwise you will, you will become crazy because it's just, just about [10:00] crazy people who, who don't have sense of humor. It's crazy people. It's, by the way, it's not only [10:05] my opinion. I know a lot of soldiers, officers and, and doctors who are managing and save lives. [10:15] And, but you can't be very serious each moment. Yes, you have to be professional and be very serious [10:23] with your profession. But there are some things on which you can't look very seriously. Otherwise, [10:29] you will shift your focus from really serious things. Now, 2018, you announced that you're [10:36] running for office. 2019, you win a runoff against Poroshenko with 73%. And at that point, Vladimir [10:44] Putin has already annexed Crimea. He's begun his campaign. Did you feel at the time that he might [10:51] one day go for a full invasion? And did you discuss with your friends and your family what that might mean [10:57] for you? The prospect of being the war leader that you've now become? Or did you think it would never [11:02] happen? And of course, I, of course, I couldn't estimate about full scale war. It's unbelievably how [11:13] it can be. So, but really it was very bad surprise when they occupied Crimea. You have borders with Russia, [11:21] you have long history, a part of USSR history, etc. And of course, you can't even imagine that [11:29] will be someday, it will be the aggression, and it will be a full scale war. And not only temporary [11:38] occupation, the really goal of Russians to occupy all your continent to destroy Ukraine. I didn't know [11:46] about it, of course. And also famously, when when the invasion happened, you said to President Biden [11:53] and President Erdogan, I don't need a ride, I need ammunition. That's the moment where I think people [11:59] sense you were a leader of just exceptional leadership and courage. But was there a moment [12:05] when you felt real personal fear at the scale of what you were about to be confronted with? [12:11] I'm not, I mean, this I'm a life person, we have all these emotions, what the older people have, [12:22] of course, when you hear about about children, about your country, about your family, it's very [12:30] understandable. But for me, the most important is to push away any kind of emotions and to focus on [12:38] on the steps. That's what I can do. And I could do it before this profession. Yes, in the difficult [12:45] moments, I can put myself together. So I had to do it. And that's why I saw a lot of people around [12:52] who've been in a big stress, and some chaos and etc. But I think that I could manage what to do. And of [13:01] course, I had phone calls, you know, each 5-10 minutes. During the first days of the war, yes, it was, [13:08] I mean, very difficult. And I had phone calls from all the from the generals of my country, [13:14] just the government, which being in the Western part, I pushed moved it to the Western part of [13:19] Ukraine, because I saw that if we will be occupied totally, we need to manage how to manage the country. [13:29] Yeah. And that's why I decided I made some steps with banking system. I can't share with you where I [13:37] moved them, but I moved them. Yes. And also, I moved the government. I had no big team in Kyiv, [13:44] we had to stay here. So and of course, leaders came to me that they said that in such, and not only [13:51] them also security and etc. And they all my I mean, this own security, they all said that in such [13:58] circumstances, we need to move you to some security places somewhere. And leaders of the world, [14:08] including United States, they wanted to move me somewhere to other country and to help me with this [14:13] and just to save me because they knew that Putin wants that at this moment, it was understandable [14:21] that the Russians wanted to occupy Kyiv. And of course, they wanted to, to do something with me. [14:29] Now it's understandable. Now it's not so difficult to look back and to understand what is the idea, [14:35] how to occupy it. And of course, the destabilization with the people when they don't have the leader, [14:40] when they don't have the president, and you can't join everybody. Yeah, I made a decision without no, [14:48] it was not something emotional, etc. So again, God bless the education helped me, I understand what [14:57] to do. And I understood what Russians wanted. And I and I knew what I had to do like the president of [15:04] the country. And if I can go back to 1994, and the Budapest agreement, where United States, [15:11] the United Kingdom, Russia, agree that if Ukraine gave its nuclear weapons to Russia, [15:16] you'd get guarantees of security, sovereignty and border security. That kind of went with Crimea, [15:22] but it was now with the invasion, it was utterly shattered. Did you feel did your country feel [15:28] betrayed at that point? For today, looking what's going on in the world, not only in Ukraine, [15:35] in the Middle East, you understand that the biggest and the strongest security guarantees, [15:41] it's you, your country, your people, when you want to exchange something, you can't exchange [15:52] some military equipment doesn't matter, by the way, nuclear in this case, in your example, [15:59] or are they I don't know, air defense, and etc, or jets, sky fleet, and etc. It doesn't mean it's [16:07] meant that you you have to exchange these on similar things. For example, it's very expensive to [16:16] hold these jets or the whole big army, you exchange it to the place in NATO, that this NATO fleet will [16:24] defend you in a very dangerous moment, if somebody will come to occupy you or something like that. [16:29] It's the same with nuclear weapon. If you decided to change nuclear weapon, the price had to be [16:38] fair. And I think the NATO is the smallest price, smallest what Ukraine, what the leaders of Ukraine, [16:48] and the Ministry of Defense, President, government, the parliament, what they had to get instead of [16:56] nuclear weapons. What we've got, we've got nothing. So it's a not fair game. And it's a big mistake [17:05] in any way. By the way, it's not only Ukrainian mistake, I don't want you know, to push only [17:10] these signals to our past and they said, it's also about other security guarantors who are in this [17:19] Budapest memo. And it's nuclear countries, if they said that you will not have nuclear weapon, [17:26] they have to give you umbrella of security, maybe nuclear umbrella, because you are nuclear countries, [17:32] and other things. And that's why it was lies. Of course, it was lies. Without they've got our nuclear [17:41] weapons. They moved it, by the way, mostly to Russia. So not only this, I know how strategic [17:49] aviation was destroyed of Ukraine totally. The biggest jets, strategic aviation, so they are very [17:58] strong. By the way, such strategic jets Russia used against us during this full-scale war. So a lot of [18:05] different mistakes. You did have direct dealings with Vladimir Putin, first by phone, then you had [18:13] face-to-face talks with him during the so-called Normandy talks when they resumed. I understand why, [18:19] how you see him today. How did you see him then? I tried to find a way of negotiations. What I wanted, [18:27] just when I became the president, the young president who understood that we have to finish with this, [18:36] because we need to increase economy, GDP for Ukraine. And to do this, we need investment, [18:43] we need a free economy, we need the way to EU, and etc. Something that will open for us markets. [18:52] And of course, Russia's influence, the fact that they temporarily occupied us some territories, [18:59] of course, and they also blocked for us some markets. It was understandable that we need to find [19:07] a way of stabilizing the situation. That's why we needed to make some format of negotiations, because [19:16] when I came, we had already Minsk agreement. We had the table for meetings and technical groups, [19:24] and etc. And we had thousands, no, maybe not thousands, but hundreds of such tactical meetings [19:33] before me, and then after. And I wanted to speak with him. And I wanted very much to end this Minsk [19:42] agreement. Because for me, it was like, you know, it's such format of destabilizing, [19:51] not full scale war, but not peace time. And this is a signal to all the investors. So you can develop [19:58] your country. And what's your sense of him today, and his psychology, and what you actually think [20:04] he's trying to achieve right now? I understand 100% what he wants today. I think he made historical [20:14] mistake with a full scale war. And of course, occupation was also his mistake. But it was, [20:21] you know, the moment of the life, when you can find, at least try to find some diplomatic way to [20:31] deescalate. And he moved to this operation, which is really became the war, moved to operation, he said [20:38] about three, four days, but we know what was at the end. So this is a full scale war. And he really [20:46] thought, his estimation, what that he can occupy us, that leaders will take me out, or Russians will [20:54] kill me, it doesn't matter, I'm in this, how to move me out from, from the capital. Yes, and they [21:00] understood that the Ukrainian people will not join, and they will move to the parliament, because they had [21:07] in parliament, their party, which was financed by Russia. And the party was the second, by the way, [21:14] it was big party, they had the plan of operation of strategy. Our security service produced a report [21:22] this week, that said on the front line, you're doing better than you have for almost a year. And yet, [21:29] the language is all about, you know, he's still going and he keeps going. So what do you think he is [21:33] trying to achieve now? I think for today, he understand that he can't occupy us totally. [21:41] He recognized it for himself and for partners. I'm sure sometimes is different to you. Sometimes he, [21:51] he shares with partners, not the things what he's thinking about really. Yes, but he recognizes [21:58] that he can't occupy us now. The second point, it's understandable that he has so many losses for [22:06] today. And on the front, he doesn't have well trained people, enough number of well trained, [22:15] trained soldiers and officers to destroy us. And he needs time for this. And I think that his goal is to [22:24] find a way out with a victory. That's why he's trying to withdraw us from Donbass by diplomacy, [22:31] by the way, by the Americans dialogue with us, that we have by ourselves, withdraw from Donbass, [22:38] because for him, it's losses, hundreds of thousands, by the way, we see that he can occupy [22:43] Donbass in some years, if he will be able, I mean, not he can or not, if he will be able to do it, [22:50] he needs more people, more money, and losses will be from 300,000 to 1 million, depends how many years [22:58] he will need additional losses. So this is a big price even for Putin. And that's why he wants to [23:05] find such a way of, of ending the war. But for him, that will be the pause in the way we will withdraw [23:15] from ourselves, by ourselves, from Donbass. Of course, he understands that our people, our country [23:22] will be divided. Because to withdraw by ourselves, you know, partially, people will be against it, [23:28] of course. He understands that our unity can be divided. And he will look, if the unity and society [23:35] will be divided, he will continue very quickly to make something like the Blitzkrieg and something like [23:41] this to occupy us. If not, he will need pause, pause for well trained people for him, for training [23:50] missions, for increasing the production, and for blocking us economically, lifting sanctions from his [24:00] energy sector, and etc. Find a way to deal with Europe, because ceasefire or something like this [24:08] can help him also. So it's not only our wish. So you said there that he's doing it through the [24:14] Americans and diplomacy. But surely, do the Americans not understand that for you to give up Donetsk, [24:23] parts of Donbass, is impossible because of the soldiers you lost. It's impossible for the people [24:28] who live there. It's impossible because of the referendum that you would have to have, [24:31] which you would lose if you put it there. And it would probably cause some kind of civil war, [24:37] which presumably he would quite enjoy. So why are the Americans even pushing in that direction when [24:42] it's, they both understand it's literally impossible for you? Because I'm sure that they had [24:49] a lot of different conversations with Putin and his team. And it's a pity, but we have to recognize that [24:56] that partially Americans are feeling that it's nothing for us. It's not such a big price for the peace [25:04] to go out from our territories. And they don't want to recognize that Putin will like them, and that [25:14] he can continue the occupation even after such steps. That they are sure, Americans are sure, that if [25:20] we will withdraw, Putin will put in that they can trust Putin. I think that is the biggest problem [25:27] that we don't trust Putin. And I think that they trust him. But even the American people, if you look [25:33] at opinion, I saw an opinion poll two weeks ago, you were the most popular world leader in the United [25:39] States. And Putin was second bottom only to Kim Jong Un. So they don't, the people don't trust him. [25:45] Why do Wyckoff and Kushner and Trump trust somebody who's shown himself to be so untrustworthy? [25:51] Too much time together, first. The second point that really, they made, I think in Alaska, some [25:59] negotiations, they spoke about it. And I think that Putin was very open, very, for him, it was great [26:06] success that Americans involved him and invited him. But American people are on our side. And this is [26:13] great. This is what helps us a lot. And this is big support. When I had a meeting with a [26:21] negotiation group in Berlin, firstly, and I began to speak with them, not on the groups to groups, our [26:29] negotiation group, I wanted to speak with them to understand them. And I think that they understood [26:34] me that not everything is as simple. Yes, and they can't trust Putin. And they told me that really, [26:44] it was very, very important, very useful, we began to speak to each other. Before I didn't have such [26:50] a possibility, because Wyckoff went only to Moscow, and I didn't have communications with him. But [26:58] sometimes our partners think that one element, and it will bring them quick, successful victory, [27:07] like ceasefire. Yeah, but you know, we need ceasefire for for the long period of time, not just for the [27:18] week, for the week of celebration. And then again, continuation of this tragedy that but I know what [27:26] Putin's want. And he knows that I understand him. And he knows also that I understand that they are not [27:35] so strong at the battlefield. And I think that he knows that only me understand. And that's why they [27:43] share with Americans, a lot of, you know, I mean, there's no truth, yeah, blah, blah, and etc. So, [27:52] this is where we are. And I said very openly to our American friends, I'm thankful that they really [27:58] want, they really want to end this war, it's true. And I said to them, look, if you want to try to [28:05] negotiate any kind of these territorial challenges, you need to organize and to push Putin to trilateral [28:15] meeting on the level of leaders. He doesn't want because this is the answer. I said, I will give [28:20] you some examples where you will find the answer, if he really wants to end the war or not. First, [28:27] try to organize, organize meeting on the level of leaders, speak about territories. He didn't want, [28:33] first. Second, if he doesn't want after ceasefire to occupy us, propose him to put American soldiers [28:43] with Europeans on the contact line. He said to them, no, any kind of soldiers. So it means that [28:51] he will go forward. So he wants to go forward. The third point, he has about 20, I don't know, [28:57] 17, 18 or 20 million, millions of square kilometers. He started off Russia. And when he speaks with [29:05] Americans, he said, look, what is the problem? It's about 6,000 square kilometers. So can you imagine, [29:14] really, that the person, which has dozens of millions of square kilometers, and 70% of these square [29:24] kilometers are without life, any infrastructure? Do we really trust that he needs 5.8,000 square [29:34] kilometers? That this is the goal? No, this is not the goal. The goal is other things. It's like [29:42] strategic place. So yes, it's true. It's not only geopolitical. From the format of the war, [29:50] he will have these industrial cities. And after these industrial cities, where we have fortification, [29:58] defending lines to the field, open field, and straight roads to our original capitals, like Dnipro, [30:08] Kharkiv, and etc. So it's, I mean, it's understandable for what he wants. [30:14] It's very hard watching, living in the UK, as I do, and doing this podcast every week and covering [30:20] talking about Ukraine a lot. It's very hard not to think that the Trump administration is [30:25] is basically on his side. We saw the meeting where JD Vance started an ambush with you. [30:32] He criticizes you. He blames you. Putin is a dictator. He's broken international law. He started the war, [30:39] and yet he never criticized him. And as we speak, you and I are speaking now at a time when JD Vance [30:45] is on the way to Hungary to interfere directly in an election in support of Viktor Orban, [30:51] who has done more than any other European leader, to undermine you, support Putin. So [30:57] do you just have to suck that up and grin and bear it because you still need the Americans? And how hard [31:02] is that? It's difficult. I mean, sometimes you can't feel what's going on here in Europe. [31:07] The same like in Europe, we can't feel everything what's going on, for example, [31:11] in the Middle East. And I'm not sure that now JD, with all respect and et cetera, but I'm not, [31:18] even he's coming to Budapest. I'm not sure that it's helpful, you know, between us, between us. [31:27] Yes. Between us. [31:28] We have many billions of listeners between all of us. [31:35] No, I mean that this is the situation in Europe. [31:39] Yeah. [31:40] That I always, all my messages have been about the unity between Europe and the United States, [31:46] because I think that it doesn't matter if it's NATO or on another name. The question is the most [31:53] strong union in the world, security union, it's Europe and the United States with all [31:59] respects to other countries and continents. And today we see dividing of this. This is not good. [32:09] So for today, United States support for Hungarians. I'm not sure that it's support. Yes, I'm not, [32:16] I'm not on the side of this guy from Hungary. It's understandable why, but I don't want to be [32:22] involved today in elections. People by themselves, they will decide. That's why I said that I'm not [32:29] sure that today the team of the United States, that they really understand all the details, [32:36] what Russia wants. You know, I had the document, for example, Russians shared with Iranian regime, [32:44] energy objects and also military, but mostly energy objects on the territory of Middle East countries [32:50] and the Gulf and also Israel and also a lot of different countries. So they shared with them, [32:56] they used satellites, made images they shared with Iranians and also American bases are there. [33:03] And I shared this information, even publicly I shared, but did we hear the reaction of the United [33:09] States to Russia that they have to stop it? And that's why I think this is the problem that they [33:17] trust Putin and it's a pity, it's a pity. But you've mentioned NATO a couple of times [33:22] and Trump is currently saying that he thinks NATO is a bit of a busted flush. Europe is very good with [33:28] the words of support, but is that being matched by reality? And can they, can they fill a gap that [33:34] the Americans might leave in your defenses? This is a difficult question. As I said a little bit, [33:40] a little bit earlier that I really think that the union between the United States and Europe is very [33:46] important. And if the United States really thinks about how to withdraw from the NATO, what we heard [33:54] from officials, even officials publicly that they think about it, all the security in Europe will [34:01] based only on EU. So we want, for example, you will understand me, we want to be a part of EU and we [34:08] will be, I'm sure. But I think that for today EU is in such a situation when they need some countries. [34:18] UK? UK, Ukraine, Turkey, Norway. There are different questions to each of these countries, [34:29] according to the laws, internal questions and etc. But there are four strong countries, which are [34:38] part of Europe and these countries. And between us, between us, UK, Ukraine and Turkey, this is the [34:47] army which will be stronger than the army of Russia. That is the answer. Without Ukraine and Turkey, [34:55] Europe will not have similar army of that Russia has. With Ukraine, Turkey, Norway and UK, [35:03] you will control security on the seas, not one sea. This is the answer. And that's why these four [35:10] countries, EU also has to find a way, friendship, strategic partner way, how to involve these four [35:20] countries and be the strongest union of economy and security. It's not about offensive. No, no, no. I'm [35:30] speaking about defending, only defending security in the sea, security in the sky, and the biggest land [35:38] forces. I was in Kyiv for the fourth anniversary. And that's when I saw you there at the ceremony in [35:46] the Maidan. And I was with the enlargement commissioner, Marta Kos, for the fourth anniversary. And I went to [35:51] quite a long meetings. We kept hearing that, yes, got to get into the European Union. But several things [35:57] we heard first was there is still a worry about corruption. There is still a worry about the pace [36:03] of reform, but also from your side, a worry about whether France and Germany in particular [36:09] want any enlargement of the European Union at the moment. What's your, what's your sense of all that? [36:14] Well, we have to do our reforms, not only for EU or, or somebody, we need it for ourselves. We can do as [36:22] much as possible. We can't do more during the war. We do a lot. I think we do more than we can. I think [36:31] that we need to survive. Yesterday, I was in Syria. And I'm so happy that they have life. I saw a lot of [36:40] children, and they saw our flags, Ukrainian flags, and they applaud, by the way. So this is their [36:46] attitude. And they understand that they are very, they are strong, and etc. But now the economy is not [36:53] so strong. Yes, of course, they on the way, they are on the way. But when the war began in Ukraine, [36:59] it's understandable that Russia moved all their forces from Africa, from Syria, from a lot of different [37:07] countries, they moved to Ukraine, and Ukraine killed all their Wagner group, and etc. And they [37:13] understand that they are strong, but Ukraine made them a lot, I think so. Yes. And, and, and we see [37:23] that, what does it mean, when Russia, when they Russians and Iranians, they destroyed a lot of things in [37:31] Syria, they need years and years to, you know, to renovate everything. [37:37] And we will need years. And now Europe doesn't feel it. God bless, will not. What does it mean? [37:46] What is the first? I think, with reforms, it's very important, with different laws, it's very important, [37:54] we will make decisions. But security is number one, and only in unity. Because when Russia has the [38:04] decision to have 2 million army for these years, and before 2030 to have army 2.5 million, Europe has to [38:13] think, first of all, about security, and how to hold the life which they like, the level of this life, how to [38:27] hold this, and how to save their history and their independence. They all have to think about it. [38:36] Focusing what we spoke earlier, in such difficult moment, you have to focus on one thing, very [38:43] important, to make everything with your security. Russia has to be afraid of the unity of these countries. [38:52] When you will do this, all the people in your continent, they will be happy, and then make other steps. [39:05] And I think, when you want to find a way about Ukraine's place in EU, or what to do with, for example, UK, [39:16] they've been in EU, then they are not in EU. And again, with Turkey, they're afraid because a lot of, [39:23] I don't know, vegetables, or big agriculture. It's understandable about markets, but you will manage [39:29] all this. You will manage. If you have great economy, you have to save your country, and then economy. [39:37] First of all, security. Second is economy, not opposite. [39:42] And you mentioned, and we've run over time, I know, but can I just ask you about, you mentioned that [39:46] you'd been in the Middle East, and I thought that was a really interesting strategic move. [39:53] You've been to the Gulf. As you say, you were in Syria yesterday. You have a lot of contact with that [39:57] region now. Can we read into that a set of new partnerships that you think are going to help you [40:05] in the war? Is this about you giving them the technology that they need to fight Iranian drones [40:12] since the war in Iran? Or is there something longer term that you can plan that actually helps you, [40:18] yeah, longer term for Ukraine's forward strategy? [40:22] In our strategy, it's long term relations, how not only defend and destroy Iranian drones, [40:33] it's not about Iranians or Russians, it doesn't matter. It's about system what we have, [40:38] the system, its security in the sky, and also how to save energy, how to think about infrastructure, [40:46] how to save it, water supplies, and et cetera, how to build fortifications. It's not simple things. [40:54] It's all in the system. They understood Middle East. I was there some years ago. I wanted very much [41:01] to find a way how to go together. We needed very much anti-ballistic and we needed money. We didn't [41:07] have enough fundings for ourselves. And I tried. But only when war came to you, to your country, [41:14] you are ready to make progress. And that's why. And I think all our experience about the systems, [41:21] which we will provide co-production and this system to Middle East countries, we will be able to do [41:32] this and to do this together. They will be ready also to be very open. [41:37] Are you worried that the war in Iran is not just taking attention away from Ukraine, but taking [41:44] defenses away from Ukraine as well? [41:46] Yeah, of course. Of course. The focus is on the Middle East now of the United States. Then, [41:55] it's meant that in any way, for the United States, for today, it's priority. And of course, [42:02] it can take... If the war will be long, I don't know, God's glad they will make some ceasefire steps, [42:09] and etc. I don't know. But I know one thing, that long war, it's using a lot of different weapons, [42:20] what we need, anti-ballistic missiles, Patriot missiles, what we need very much. And of course, [42:25] they can move it to the Middle East and we will have deficit. Even before this war, we had deficit [42:32] with these components. But with the war, of course. Yes. So this is the problem, Dan. They lifted [42:41] sanctions from energy sector, partially from Russian energy sector. And if Russia had big deficit, [42:49] about 100 billions for 2026, it was our estimation. For now, they have now additional money each day, [42:58] because the sanctions have been lifted from Russian oil. So this is also the problem. Yes. But what [43:05] the system, what we proposed, and they understood Middle East countries, and they were very happy [43:09] with what we shared with them, our experience, how to help their people, civilians, of course, [43:16] to defend. I think this is what we need to do now in our union in Europe, to do, not to wait, [43:24] not to wait when it will be late. Why I don't trust them that they will just stop the war in Ukraine? [43:31] They really can stop this war in Ukraine, but it doesn't mean that they will stop, because they [43:38] they can go on other direction where the situation will be more simple for them. Most small countries [43:44] not well prepared for the war. It's understandable why, because they didn't have occupation. So that's why [43:51] they can move the air, because it's very difficult when you increased the production, when a lot of [43:57] all of your business partners are all military sector in Russia, when they make today a lot of [44:02] money. That's why it's very difficult to stop such, you know, machine. So that's why you need to go [44:10] somewhere to do something, not to decrease all these productions and military productions, and etc. So a [44:17] lot of different business, Russian business make money on this war now. Yeah, for sure. [44:23] Well, listen, it's been fantastic to talk to you. I, my dream for the world is that Ukraine, [44:29] the UK and Canada all enter the European Union on the same day, but maybe you can add that one. [44:36] We're happy with Canada. Absolutely. Canada is great partner. Yeah, for sure. Mark is great [44:41] prime minister, really. Yeah. And if I can just ask one, one final question. I was [44:48] deeply moved at the Maidan by the flags and the pictures of all the fallen soldiers that went on [44:53] and on and on. When you're the leader in a war like this, how do you avoid becoming so used to being [45:00] told of the deaths of soldiers, that you actually cease to feel the impact? Do you have to harden [45:07] yourself or can you actually can you always feel the the impact of that? And I guess that's a way [45:12] of asking as well. We hear a lot about Ukrainian resilience, but how do you manage your own [45:17] resilience and mental health? Yeah. First of all, you can't control this pain and you can't forget it. [45:27] I give orders to not only to soldiers officers, but also the one of the difficultest moments for me [45:37] when I give it to mothers or fathers and to husbands, wives with children on their heads. And when they [45:46] when I give the orders for their relatives, for their children who been killed by Russians. And I do it [45:56] personally. You mean the medals? [45:58] Yeah. When I give them, I always do it. I I'm trying to do it personally, not not to forget [46:09] about these people and to feel because all these people, mothers and fathers, they always say [46:16] something. And I said there, they say something. Sometimes they were strong, but cry. And sometimes [46:24] they need just Hanks. And that's why I feel all this, all these losses. And I have to feel and I think [46:36] that the president has to feel it. He has to look to the eyes of these people who gave their relatives, [46:43] their children, the lives of their children. They gave it. And that's why we live. Only this reason. [46:53] That's why we live. Because somebody gave his own life for this. [46:57] And what about you and your result? How do you look after yourself? [47:01] No, for me is, you know, on the attacks, we feel like like the attacks. [47:06] And I mean, there's when, when there are losses, it's a big pain. And, but psychologically, I think [47:14] that we all in distress in any way. It's, I mean, this, it's when we look at our children, [47:23] we see how it's, you know, how, what the questions, uh, they have that they are not, uh, I mean, [47:29] they're, they're not happy as children have to be happy that they are not children. They're adults. [47:35] As I, I said about it. Once I see, when I look to the eyes of my 13 years, and I see that it's the [47:43] eyes of, of, of adults, not about children. Well, thank you. Thank you very much for your time. [47:49] Thank you for everything you do. I don't know how you do it. And now you keep smiling. [47:52] We love our country and our life. And that's why we have to, you know, not to forget the, all the [48:01] feelings of the, of the life. Yes. Because as I'm in this, we pay big, big price for this. It's [48:11] understandable. Yeah. But not forget that we are, that we are people. We are not, you know, we are not [48:19] robots, robots, robots. Yeah. We're, we're people with, with pluses and minuses. Thank you so much. [48:25] Thank you. And thank your team as well. They've been great. Thank you. [48:29] Thank you. Take care. Thanks so much. Bye-bye.