Pope Leo's political voice and how much influence he holds

[0:00] The American in the Vatican. [0:02] Pope Leo XIV is the first American to lead the 1.4 billion Catholics. [0:07] And now, after nearly a year of advocating for the poor [0:09] and cautiously opposing controversial U.S. policies, [0:13] Leo is offering a more public contrast with President Trump, [0:16] condemning leaders who use God to justify war. [0:19] On this Easter weekend, how political will the former missionary become? [0:23] And how much influence can the American pope have tonight on Compass Points? [0:27] Support for Compass Points has been provided by [0:43] The Judy and Peter Bloom Kovler Foundation [0:48] Camilla and George Smith [0:50] The Dorney Koppel Foundation [0:52] The Gruber Family Foundation [0:54] And Cap and Margaret Ann Eschenroeder [0:56] The Judy and Peter Bloom Kovler Foundation [1:00] Upholding freedom by strengthening democracies at home and abroad. [1:06] Additional support is provided by Friends of the NewsHour. [1:09] This program was made possible by contributions to your PBS station from viewers like you. [1:29] Thank you. [1:31] Once again, from the David M. Rubenstein Studio at WETA in Washington, [1:36] moderator Nick Schifrin. [1:38] Hello and welcome to Compass Points. [1:40] Last Easter Sunday, 2025, Pope Francis met Vice President J.D. Vance [1:45] at a moment of political tension. [1:47] And the pope, who had long advocated for migrants, [1:50] took issue with President Trump's immigration policy. [1:53] That meeting would be one of Pope Francis' last. [1:55] Weeks later, American-born Cardinal Robert Francis Prevost was elected [1:59] and became Pope Leo IV. [2:01] In the last year, he has been less outspoken than his predecessor [2:05] and largely avoided the T-word, Trump. [2:07] But he's advocated for multilateralism [2:10] and criticized war and those who wage it, [2:12] while embracing his role as custodian of the Church. [2:16] To discuss Pope Leo's first year, [2:17] his influence on U.S. foreign policy, [2:20] and what his recent criticism says about his future approach, [2:23] I'm joined by Joseph Capizzi, [2:26] Dean of the School of Theology and Religious Studies [2:28] at the Catholic University of America. [2:30] Father Thomas Reed, [2:31] a senior analyst at Religion News Service. [2:34] Annie Selleck, visiting scholar [2:36] at Georgetown University's Center on Faith and Justice. [2:39] And Stephen P. White, [2:40] the executive director of the St. John Paul II National Shrine [2:44] here in D.C. [2:45] Thanks very much, all of you. [2:47] Welcome to Compass Points. [2:49] Pope Leo is an American, [2:51] which makes him a unique pope [2:53] at a unique moment with an untraditional American president. [2:57] Joseph Capizzi, start with you. [2:58] How does that shape his approach [3:01] to the papacy, if at all? [3:04] Yeah, I'm pretty sure it shapes it significantly. [3:06] This is the first time that we've had [3:08] the leader of the world [3:10] and the leader of the largest single church in the world [3:14] both hail from the United States of America. [3:18] He speaks with a great deal of intimacy [3:20] about the American situation. [3:22] I think you see him increasingly leaning into that role. [3:26] So there's no question that by virtue of being an American, [3:30] this pope understands [3:32] his role as being a kind of counterweight [3:36] to political forces in the world, [3:38] especially given that his home country [3:41] is the single most dominant political force in the world. [3:44] Stephen White, a counterweight, [3:46] is that how you see his approach? [3:47] Yes, but with a qualification. [3:49] I mean, I think it would be foolish to suppose [3:53] that the pope is not aware that he's an American [3:55] and so is Trump, [3:56] that the role America plays is unique in a certain sense. [3:59] But I wouldn't expect Pope Leo to defend himself, [4:02] to define himself or his pontificate [4:04] sort of in distinction to or contradistinction to Donald Trump. [4:08] I think he understands the papacy to be something that's bigger, [4:11] that the organization, the institution which he is the head of [4:16] is much bigger and older [4:18] and has a very different horizon of self-understanding [4:21] and interaction with the world than just the political sphere. [4:25] So I think it's true what Joe said, [4:27] but I also think that to conceive of Pope Leo, his role, [4:32] or to think that his, [4:32] his conception of his own role [4:34] is thought of mostly in geopolitical terms [4:36] is to miss a much broader picture. [4:37] Annie Selleck, is that how you see it? [4:39] Not about geopolitics, but about custodian of the church? [4:42] That's how I would have agreed with it a week ago, [4:44] but I think what we're seeing in the past few weeks [4:47] as tensions are rising all around the world [4:51] and we have this new war in Iran, [4:54] I think we're seeing someone who really is putting himself [4:57] out there and saying, I'm the pope, [4:59] I am the leader of this church, [5:01] and I'm going to use that [5:02] moral authority to speak to that. [5:04] And we see him, we see other leaders rallying around him, [5:08] right, so the Dalai Lama put out a statement that was like, [5:10] yeah, I agree with what Pope Leo said. [5:13] So I think we're seeing that change. [5:16] Father Rees, seeing that change, [5:17] we'll hear from the pope in a second, [5:18] but you see that change too? [5:20] Well, you know, when Pope Leo was elected, [5:22] the first thing that hit, I thought of, [5:24] was Donald Trump is no longer [5:27] the most important American in the world. [5:30] We have a pope who's an American, that's extraordinary. [5:33] I never would have predicted it. [5:35] But he's an American who has international experience. [5:41] He spent most of his ministry as a priest [5:45] and as a bishop in Peru. [5:46] He's traveled all over the world [5:48] to like more than 40 countries before he became pope. [5:52] This is a man who knows what's going on in the world [5:56] and pays attention to it, [5:57] and recognizes how what happens impacts human beings, [6:03] people, and so when he speaks out, [6:06] he speaks as a pastor on political issues, [6:09] on issues that have an impact on real people. [6:12] All right, so he has become more outspoken this week, [6:15] Holy Week, as the war in Iran entered its second month. [6:19] So let's listen to his direct message [6:22] to President Trump to end the war, [6:24] and then his message on Palm Sunday. [6:28] Hopefully he's looking for an off ramp. [6:31] Hopefully he's looking for a way to, to, uh, decrease, uh, [6:34] decrease the amount of, uh, violence, of bombing, [6:37] uh, which would be a significant contribution [6:41] to, uh, removing the hatred that's being created [6:45] and, uh, that's increasing constantly. [6:48] Brothers and sisters, this is our God, [6:51] Jesus, King of Peace, who rejects war, [6:53] whom no one can use to justify war. [6:56] He does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war, [6:59] but rejects them, saying, [7:01] even though you make many prayers, I will not listen. [7:04] Your hands are full of blood. [7:06] I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood. [7:09] That is a quotation from the Book of Isaiah. [7:12] Joe Capizzi, why is Isaiah significant? [7:14] Isaiah is a prophet. [7:16] Um, so clearly the Pope is invoking, uh, [7:19] a kind of prophetic voice in a moment [7:21] where he believes the voice needs to be heard. [7:24] If the chapter is really a wonderful chapter, [7:26] I recommend anybody take a look at it [7:28] to see what Isaiah is telling the people. [7:30] It's both a kind of reminder of those in power. [7:33] You are being judged by God. [7:35] You are not in your exercise of power. [7:37] And the chapter continues by saying, [7:39] you were better than this. [7:40] You turned from justice to injustice. [7:42] Your hands are now filled with blood. [7:44] You can wash them clean by, you know, [7:48] stepping towards justice again. [7:49] So I think this is extremely significant [7:52] that he's doing this. [7:52] I also want to add to this, too. [7:54] The war is not just in Iran. [7:55] The Pope is not just concerned about the war in Iran. [7:57] He's concerned about what's happening in Lebanon as well [8:00] and the possibilities of the expansion of this. [8:02] So this is, this is a Pope who, as Stephen said, [8:05] is concerned not merely about the sort of geopolitical, [8:07] but the way that this is spiritually attacking [8:11] the communities, the Christian, the Jewish, [8:13] and the Muslim communities of these areas. [8:16] So there's no question he cares prophetically [8:19] about the moment now. [8:21] And that's why he's invoking the prophet Isaiah. [8:24] Tom, how political is this? [8:26] Well, all popes are, [8:31] part of their role is to be prophetic [8:33] and to speak about the issues from a value perspective. [8:38] That, and talk about how politics impacts human beings, [8:45] individuals, families. [8:47] And when a pope sees these having a negative impact [8:52] on human beings, then he has an obligation to speak out. [8:56] Any pope, not just an American pope. [8:57] Any pope, not just, and they have through the ages. [9:01] And this is extremely important, [9:03] and that's why I think Pope Leo is doing it. [9:06] Now, he does it in a very positive way. [9:09] He does it in a very polite way. [9:12] Not like his predecessor. [9:13] Well, and not like, you know, [9:16] the opposition in the United States. [9:19] You know, he doesn't attack people. [9:22] He's very careful in his language. [9:25] He's very polite. [9:26] You know, he's making clear that he disagrees with Trump, [9:30] but he's not ad hominem. [9:31] He's not, you know, because he wants to leave the door open [9:35] for improvement, for dialogue, for conversation, [9:39] that, you know, Trump is the one who can lead us out, [9:43] who can find the off-ramp to this war. [9:46] Could be better, to put it to the point of Isaiah. [9:48] I mean, Stephen, in some ways, [9:49] this isn't new, though, of course, right? [9:51] I mean, even John Paul II came out against both Iraq wars. [9:54] I mean, is this an obligation for the pope [9:57] to say this kind of thing? [9:58] Yeah, I think particularly in the modern world, [10:00] it would be very, very surprising [10:02] if a pope didn't sort of reflexively [10:03] take the side of peace, of de-escalation. [10:07] I think one of the interesting points, building on what Tom [10:09] said, is that, you know, I think that, you know, [10:09] the trickier part is that Pope Leo speaks [10:11] in the two comments we saw, one was him addressing [10:14] a reporter's question directly towards President Trump. [10:18] He speaks as someone who believes that there's [10:20] at least the hope and the possibility of convincing [10:22] the president to take a different tack. [10:24] He's not just sort of speaking to the void, [10:26] he's speaking to persuade someone [10:28] he believes is capable of changing hisjeff. [10:30] And speaking in American English, of course, [10:31] knowing full well that he'll. [10:33] I think that's an important point. [10:35] The other clip we saw was quoting from a homily [10:39] on Palm Sunday, and I think it's interesting [10:42] to look at the bigger context of that homily. [10:46] On Palm Sunday, every Catholic in the world [10:48] who goes to the services sees, [10:50] hears the passion of Jesus read in its full. [10:54] It's one of the longest gospel of the year. [10:57] And it's a story of someone who, as Catholics believe, [11:00] is God, who comes into a position where he's facing death. [11:05] His followers try to fight for him. [11:08] He says, don't do that. [11:10] And he allows himself to be given over [11:12] to the powers of the world because he knows [11:13] that God doesn't need our resorting to force [11:18] to bring about the justice that he leads. [11:20] So in that context, that gospel is not simply [11:22] an appeal to peace. [11:24] It's an appeal to think beyond the confines [11:28] of what political necessity may seem to dictate, [11:31] to think beyond the possibilities of force [11:34] and simply of statecraft, to look to the broader horizon [11:37] that Jesus built. [11:39] And he even went so far as to say [11:40] that Christ is being crucified now, again, [11:44] in the suffering of the people around the world [11:49] who are suffering because of this war. [11:51] Yeah, he puts it in a theological perspective. [11:54] And it's not that there aren't political implications. [11:56] Obviously there are, but I think those have to be understood [12:01] in that broader context. [12:02] That really gives the emphasis [12:04] I think Leo wants us to take. [12:05] And we don't know exactly who he was responding to [12:08] or what he was responding to, but let me just, [12:11] suggest one possibility. [12:13] And that is that this statement by Secretary Hegseth [12:17] in late March, quoting a chaplain [12:19] who shared it with Secretary Hegseth. [12:22] First a reading from the book of Psalms, [12:24] chapter 18, verses 37 to 42. [12:27] King David writes, [12:29] I pursued my enemies and overtook them [12:32] and did not turn back till they were consumed. [12:35] Let every round find its mark [12:37] against the enemies of righteousness and our great nation. [12:41] Give them wisdom in every decision. [12:44] Endurance for the trial ahead, unbreakable unity [12:47] and overwhelming violence of action [12:49] against those who deserve no mercy. [12:51] Overwhelming violence of action. [12:53] Annie, do we think this is what the Pope's responding to? [12:56] Well, I think the Pope is kind of, [12:57] he, I have a little different view than the other panelists. [13:00] I think he's not being as polite as he started out, right? [13:04] So when he says things like, [13:06] you cannot use God's name to justify war. [13:10] Yes, I think that's absolutely addressing Hegseth. [13:14] But I also think it's a bigger, [13:15] I think we can look at the Trump administration [13:18] and the leadership. [13:19] There's a lot of Catholics in it, right? [13:22] So this sense, he also said things earlier that week [13:25] of saying, hey, everyone who is involved in this war, [13:29] you need to do an examination of conscience. [13:32] You need to repent. [13:34] God does not hear the prayers [13:36] of those who use his name to justify war. [13:40] So when we look at that, like he's not talking to Israel, [13:43] he's talking to Christians, right? [13:45] He's not talking to Iran. [13:47] That leaves one option, right? [13:48] He's talking to the Trump administration. [13:51] So I think he is really facing this head on [13:56] and trying to use like every single tool that he has. [13:59] I mean, he reached out to journalists and said, [14:01] you need to cover the victims of war. [14:03] Don't just cover this from a geopolitical view. [14:06] Look at the victims. [14:08] And then the Vatican newspaper put the digging of mass graves [14:11] on its front page and caught a lot of flack for that. [14:14] And he's saying like, no, this is actually where we, [14:15] this is where we go. [14:16] So I think he's trying to redirect everyone's attention. [14:20] This is not the first time [14:21] that he has at least waded into politics. [14:24] He hasn't avoided, you know, commenting. [14:27] First, there was immigration a few months ago. [14:29] And last November, American bishops released [14:32] a special pastoral letter criticizing multiple aspects [14:35] of the Trump administration's immigration policy. [14:37] And Pope Leo gave a statement. [14:39] He encouraged all Americans to read [14:41] what the bishop's letter said. [14:43] He said that immigrants in the US had been treated, quote, [14:45] extremely disrespectfully. [14:47] And then he added this. [14:50] Someone who says that I'm against abortion, [14:53] but I'm in agreement with the inhuman treatment [14:57] of immigrants who are in the United States. [14:59] I don't know if that's pro-life. [15:01] I mean, Stephen, is this a political stance? [15:04] Yeah, so it was interesting when he made that comment, [15:06] he, the next time someone asked him something [15:09] that touched on American politics, [15:10] he said, I'm not gonna get into that. [15:13] I think that was his first, I don't wanna say misstep. [15:15] I'm not suggesting he didn't say something [15:16] that he meant. [15:18] I think that was, I think that was November of last year. [15:19] November, right, yeah. [15:21] It was one of his first forays [15:22] into sort of testing the waters. [15:25] And it's, look, the church's position [15:27] on a lot of these things are very nuanced, [15:28] and it's hard to get a clear moral message across [15:31] without losing the nuance, especially in a soundbite [15:36] that's gonna river right around the world. [15:38] So I think what you're seeing is the advantage [15:40] of having a pope who is very cautious [15:42] in his approach about these things. [15:43] He's very deliberate. [15:45] He doesn't tend to say things he doesn't mean, [15:46] and he tends to say things he doesn't mean. [15:46] He tends not to say things [15:48] that he hasn't thought carefully [15:49] about how he wants to phrase them. [15:51] And I think that's helpful. [15:52] It helps his message get through more clearly, [15:55] and it also avoids some of the noise and the static [15:58] that can come from sort of lots of different soundbites. [16:01] Don't you think it's also fair to say [16:03] about that particular comment [16:04] that he doesn't speak to the policy. [16:07] He's concerned about the way people are being treated, right? [16:10] Which is a note the bishops make as well, right? [16:12] That we're not per se addressing the policy [16:16] because policy is somewhat outside of our ambit, [16:20] but we are really concerned [16:21] about the way immigrants are being treated. [16:23] Nobody ought to be treated inhumanely. [16:26] And whenever you're treating somebody inhumanely, [16:29] you're really sort of undermining your claim [16:32] to be somebody who is for the person, for life, and so on. [16:35] I thought that that was a piece of the care he's taking [16:39] by making that kind of comment. [16:41] Yeah, I would disagree. [16:42] We don't need to get into the weeds [16:44] of the specifics around the question that he was asked [16:46] that kind of had to do with the invitation [16:48] of a certain senator by a certain, very complicated. [16:51] But I think it was, yes, he is someone who, [16:54] and like his predecessors, going way back, [16:57] Pope John Paul II was excellent at this, [16:59] always coming back to the human person [17:01] and focusing on the dignity of the human person. [17:03] And if that is in jeopardy, if that's threatened, [17:06] then there's something that Christians need to be doing [17:08] to address that, whether they're in power, [17:10] whether it's ordinary people. [17:11] So bringing the focus back to the person, [17:13] back to the people who are suffering, [17:14] back to the mass graves you mentioned, [17:16] where there's human suffering, [17:17] the church needs to be there and needs to be standing [17:18] on the side of those who are weakest. [17:20] On immigration, I think the Pope is very strongly supporting [17:23] what the bishops are doing, [17:25] and encourage them to be even stronger. [17:28] And would the bishops be able to have said [17:30] what they said, though, without the Pope's blessing? [17:32] Well, actually, the bishops have been very strong [17:34] on immigration, even during the first Trump administration, [17:38] the language they used on attacking his immigration policies. [17:42] Sadly, it wasn't covered all that much [17:44] because the media was more, [17:46] more attuned to the bishops' attack on Catholic Democrats [17:51] who were pro-choice and didn't tend to cover that. [17:54] But now that Biden is gone, [17:57] they're hearing the bishops attack [18:00] the Trump administration on immigration. [18:02] And for the bishops, it's very personal. [18:04] These are their parishioners. [18:06] These are the people, they know them by name. [18:08] They hear from the families. [18:10] When someone is taken and imprisoned or deported, [18:16] so for them, it's very personal. [18:18] And Annie, it sounds like you'd like to hear the Pope [18:21] say more of these kinds of statements. [18:23] Yes, I mean, I'm all for this, [18:24] because I think what people are looking at the church for [18:28] is credibility, and I think that's what's under attack [18:31] in the church. [18:32] So in my book, The Wounded Church, [18:34] I talk about things that undermine credibility [18:36] of the church, which is racism, sexism, clericalism, right? [18:40] So people look at the church [18:42] and want it to live into its mission, right? [18:44] So I think immigration is a key point. [18:46] It also reminds me of the bishops [18:49] kind of from a few generations ago. [18:52] So if we look at Cardinal Bernardin, [18:54] who was on the cover of Time magazine [18:57] when he was coming out, [18:59] when all the U.S. bishops were coming out [19:01] with their letters about just war theory [19:04] and the challenge of peace and things like that, [19:07] we can also remember that this was the time [19:09] that Pope Leo was in formation to be a priest. [19:12] This was the time that he was a young priest [19:15] in the Chicago area. [19:16] Right? [19:17] So I think we're seeing a lot of that come out, [19:20] and I wouldn't be surprised if we see more, [19:24] more of the positioning about policy. [19:25] So far, he's saying, you know what, bishops, [19:28] I want you all to be out there. [19:29] I want you to be active. [19:30] So that's in the U.S., [19:32] but that's also all throughout the world, right? [19:34] So he has that mindset on a global church, [19:37] not just a national church. [19:39] I don't think we're gonna see more, [19:41] because, in part, because I do think- [19:43] This is as far as he's willing to go. [19:44] Well, I think- [19:46] The point about credibility is a good point, [19:48] but I think he, because he's careful, [19:52] recognizes too much speaking undermines credibility, [19:57] that he has to be precise and careful [19:59] about when he intervenes and how he intervenes, [20:03] because just to keep intervening, [20:05] then you just become another voice [20:07] that's in the loud voices that happen in our society, [20:13] and it's very easy at that point to be dismissed. [20:14] So in fact, [20:15] he's got a lot of gravity from these few statements, [20:18] because he took his time, he's been precise and careful, [20:23] he's not ad hominem to the point made earlier, [20:25] he tries generally to invite people. [20:27] So I don't expect to see, like, [20:30] this is provoked by a war, again, [20:31] a war that's in the Middle East, the Holy Land. [20:34] This is why, this is part of the reason [20:36] why he's speaking up right now, [20:37] not because I've waited, now's the time, [20:40] I'm gonna start, now the gloves are off or something. [20:43] That's my judgment. [20:43] I think he, [20:45] I think he'll not be the main character, [20:47] like he doesn't bring that big main character energy, [20:50] but I think we're gonna see that coming more [20:52] from the bishops, and that's where we see, [20:54] see Cardinal Supich coming in from Chicago [20:57] and really taking a role in that. [20:59] And he's, again, he's authorizing that, right? [21:01] I mean, he is empowering that. [21:03] I mean, so they don't need permission. [21:04] They don't like send him a draft [21:06] and then he signs off on it, right? [21:08] I think there's a culture, [21:10] I think what he can do is set a culture of saying, [21:13] the church needs to be addressing the issues [21:15] that people are struggling with, [21:16] because it is personal, as Tom said, right? [21:19] It is, these are people who are known by name, [21:22] and that's how the gospel's lived out. [21:24] It's not lived out in these big statements alone. [21:26] It's lived out in our day-to-day choices. [21:28] And Tom, just quickly ask about women in the church. [21:31] He has basically reclosed the idea [21:35] of women as deacons in the church. [21:38] Deacons, of course, are ordained ministers [21:40] who are able to perform some of the sacraments, [21:43] but are not priests and are able [21:45] to have a family. [21:46] What does that say about how far he's willing to go [21:48] on an issue like women in the church? [21:51] Well, I think he's pretty much the same as Pope Francis. [21:54] There is a continuity there, right? [21:55] Yeah, absolutely, which means he would like to see women [21:59] in all sorts of positions in the Vatican [22:02] as head of offices, head of dicasteries, [22:05] see women doing jobs in chanceries and in parishes. [22:11] It's everything except ordination [22:13] is basically the bottom line. [22:15] That is where they are, [22:16] and that will be disappointing to many of us, [22:19] but that's the world in which we live, [22:22] and that would be huge progress outside of the United States. [22:26] Just to have female leadership in the Vatican. [22:27] Oh, in the global south, [22:30] to empower women is extremely important. [22:34] We've got a couple minutes left, [22:35] and I wanna bring up just a point here [22:36] that I've been obviously emphasizing the political, [22:40] the controversial, if you will, [22:43] but on this Holy Week, I wanted to hear, [22:45] from the Pope, basically say at his core [22:49] what his mission is, and so we found this statement [22:52] that he made on his first foreign trip. [22:55] We hope to also announce, transmit, [22:59] and proclaim how important peace is throughout the world, [23:02] and to invite all people to come together [23:06] to search for greater unity, greater harmony, [23:09] and to look for the ways that all men and women [23:12] can truly be brothers and sisters in spite of differences, [23:15] in spite of different religions, [23:17] in spite of different beliefs. [23:20] Because, Stephen, that is his core message, right? [23:22] Yeah, when he first walked out on the loggia [23:25] after he was elected Pope, one of the first things he did [23:27] was talk about peace. [23:29] At this time of year, you know, [23:31] the idea of reconciliation is always important to Catholics, [23:34] but what we remember at this time of year [23:36] is God's willingness to die, [23:38] to reconcile man and God, and to man with man, [23:41] so I think that's the center of his message, [23:43] and will continue to be going forward. [23:45] Joseph, and we will get that continuity moving forward [23:47] from the Pope, regardless of whether he weighs in [23:49] on these politics, right? [23:50] No, absolutely, yeah, peace is going to be the message [23:53] that he continues throughout. [23:54] He's an Augustinian, so he's got a good, [23:56] practical understanding of what that means, [23:58] a kind of ordered and just, you know, [24:01] political and social situation [24:04] that invites as many people in, [24:06] rather than excluding people. [24:07] And that inclusion message, Tom, [24:09] is what he'll continue to do, [24:11] because that's what every Pope does, [24:12] but that's also who he is, right? [24:14] Absolutely, I mean, the Catholic Church tries to be [24:17] the big tent, we're universal, [24:18] we have people all over the world in every country, [24:22] and we want to have people coming together [24:25] to recognize how much God loves us, [24:27] and how God calls us to love one another [24:29] as brothers and sisters. [24:31] That's the message of Easter, [24:33] that's the message that Leo, I think, is preaching. [24:36] And Annie, in the last 30 seconds or so we have left, [24:38] is that a message that Leo can pull off, [24:40] and that people will listen to, whether American or not? [24:43] I think so, I mean, and because that's, [24:45] at the end of the day, that's the mission [24:47] of the church, right? [24:48] The mission of the church is to build a society, [24:50] build a world where all are welcome, [24:52] and that looks a little bit more like the church [24:55] that Jesus came to build, right? [24:57] So I think what I'll be looking for, though, [24:59] are those questions around, like, [25:00] what is the role of women? [25:02] How do women actually have authority or not? [25:06] What does that look like, how does this, [25:07] how does the church continue to respond to sexual abuse? [25:11] The Diocese of Albany just came out this week [25:14] with a big statement around that. [25:16] So I think there's a lot there that we'll be waiting for. [25:19] All right, well, thank you very much, all of you. [25:20] That's all the time we have left. [25:22] So Annie Selleck, Steven White, Joseph Capizzi, [25:25] and Father Thomas Rees, thank you all very much, [25:28] and thank you for being here. [25:29] I'm Nick Schifrin, we'll see you here again next week [25:32] on Compass Points. [25:35] Support for Compass Points [25:36] has been provided by [25:39] the Judy and Peter Bloom Kovler Foundation, [25:42] Camilla and George Smith, [25:44] the Dorney Koppel Foundation, [25:46] the Gruber Family Foundation, [25:48] and CAP and Margaret A. [25:49] Anne Eschenroeder, [25:52] the Judy and Peter Bloom Kovler Foundation, [25:55] upholding freedom by strengthening democracies [25:57] at home and abroad. [26:00] Additional support is provided by [26:01] Friends of the NewsHour. [26:17] This program was made possible by contributions [26:19] to your PBS station from viewers like you. [26:23] Thank you. [26:41] Watching PBS.