Pope Leo's critiques of Trump policies hold more weight as a fellow American, priest says

[0:00] The battle between the president and the pope continues to play out on the world stage, [0:04] and some allies of President Trump are piling on to defend the war in Iran. [0:08] The pope has not backed down from his criticisms of the conflict either, [0:12] but he's taking a different approach during his visit to Africa. [0:15] DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States, President of the United States, [0:17] Good morning, everyone. [0:18] LISA DESJARDINS, President of the United States, On his flight from Algeria to Cameroon today, [0:21] Pope Leo avoided President Trump's war of words and told journalists that the world needs peace. [0:26] DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States, Although we have different beliefs, we have different ways of worshiping, [0:31] we have different ways of living, we can live together in peace. [0:34] LISA DESJARDINS, President of the United States, His message came after a new social media post [0:37] from the president this morning sharing an image of himself being cradled by Jesus. [0:42] President Trump deleted a controversial post from earlier in the week of himself depicted [0:46] as Jesus that prompted criticism from many Christians. [0:50] But Christian and even Catholic members of the Trump administration are standing behind the president. [0:56] At a Turning Point USA event in Georgia last night, Catholic convert and Vice President J.D. Vance [1:02] disagreed with Leo's theology and suggested the pope should be careful. [1:06] J.D. Vance, President of the United States, When the pope says [1:08] that God is never on the side of those who wield the sword, there is a thousand-year, [1:13] more than a thousand-year tradition of just war theory, OK? [1:17] Now, we can, of course, have disagreements about whether this or that conflict is just, [1:21] but I think that it's important, in the same way that it's important for the Vice President of the United States [1:25] to be careful when I talk about matters of public policy. I think it's very, very important for [1:30] the pope to be careful when he talks about matters of theology. [1:34] J.D. Vance, President of the United States, Many Republicans have stayed quiet or urged the [1:37] president to leave the church alone. But, today, House Speaker Mike Johnson backed Vance and the president. [1:43] MIKE JOHNSON, Obviously, if you wade into political waters, I think you should expect some [1:46] political response. And I think the pope's received some of that. [1:50] J.D. Vance, President of the United States, The battle between the Vatican and the White House began last [1:54] weekend when Pope Leo spoke out in his strongest terms yet against the war in Iran. [1:59] Leo denounced the, quote, delusion of omnipotence that he argued was fueling the war in Iran and [2:04] other global conflicts. Trump unloaded with a Truth Social post calling Pope Leo, quote, [2:10] weak on crime and terrible for foreign policy, and said if it wasn't for his reelection, [2:15] Leo wouldn't be the first American pope. On Monday, he doubled down. [2:19] J.D. Vance, President of the United States, We believe strongly in law and order. And he [2:23] he seemed to have a problem with that. So there's nothing to apologize for. He's wrong. [2:28] J.D. Vance, President of the United States, And that same day, [2:29] Pope Leo was defiant. [2:31] J.D. Vance, President of the United States, I do not look at my role as being political, [2:34] politician. I don't want to get into a debate with him. I don't think that the message of the [2:39] gospel is meant to be abused in the way that some people are doing. And I will continue to speak out loud. [2:46] J.D. Vance, President of the United States, We're joined now by Reverend James Martin. He's a Jesuit [2:50] priest and editor at large of America magazine. Father Martin, welcome back to the NewsHour. Thanks [2:55] for being with us. [2:55] J.D. Vance, President of the United States, My pleasure. [2:57] J.D. Vance, President of the United States, So let me just ask what you thought when you heard [2:59] Vice President Vance warn Pope Leo to be careful on matters of theology. What was your reaction? [3:05] J.D. Vance, President of the United States, That you have the Vice President warning the Vicar of Christ, [3:11] who is an Augustinian, who is at that time visiting the birthplace of St. Augustine, [3:15] and who knows more about St. Augustine than most people have forgotten, that he doesn't understand [3:22] just war and that he doesn't understand theology. I just found that really hard to swallow. [3:28] J.D. Vance, Father Martin, this idea of just war, what should we understand about that? [3:32] J.D. Vance, President of the United States, Well, it's an ancient concept in the Catholic Church [3:36] and in the Christian Church more broadly that talks about the types of requirements that are needed for [3:42] war to be considered just. And people can go online and find them all. For example, [3:47] there has to be a proportionate response. It's usually in defense. And pretty much every theologian, [3:52] including Cardinal Robert McElroy, who's a doctorate in theology and political science, [3:58] Archbishop Timothy Brolio, former head of the USCCB, have concluded this is not a just war in Iran. So [4:04] it's a certain number of qualifications that are needed to consider a war to be just. [4:09] J.D. Vance, You posted a very lengthy response online, called out what you saw as the ironies [4:15] of Vice President Vance's criticism of the pope. You also noted his conversion. And then you wrote, [4:20] we rejoice over everyone entering the church. What most of us do not rejoice over, however, [4:25] is a deadly combination of inaccuracy and hubris. What did you mean by that? [4:29] J.D. Well, the inaccuracy is that he doesn't seem to understand the tenets of just war, [4:37] which you can look up all the Catholic leaders and cardinals and the US Conference of Catholic [4:42] Bishops that have talked about that in the past couple of days. And the hubris is telling the pope, [4:48] of all people, who has a doctorate in canon law from a pontifical university and who has been [4:54] an August Indian for many years, that he doesn't understand theology. [4:57] J.D. It's really pretty hard to imagine calling it anything other than hubris. [5:03] J.D. And as we just reported, Father Martin, I have to ask you about these pictures. The president [5:07] posted that AI image of himself being cradled by Jesus. That followed an AI image of himself [5:13] as Jesus that he later deleted. That followed, we should remind people, an AI image of himself [5:19] as pope. Do these images go too far in your view? [5:22] J.D. Yes. I mean, particularly the one where he is picturing himself as Jesus. Some people have used [5:30] the term blasphemy. I think it's more appropriate to call it idolatrous. The first commandment is, [5:37] you shall have no other gods before me. And so to picture yourself as Jesus is really [5:43] trespassing into that territory. And it's not just Catholics who are upset. I think [5:47] any Christian who saw that would have to scratch their heads or be offended. [5:51] J.D. You know, we saw there Pope Leo say that he does not fear the president, right? Indicating [5:57] he'll continue to speak out if he disagrees with something that he sees. Is it fair to say that this [6:02] is a pope who is more willing to publicly disagree with or to take on the president of the United [6:07] States than before? J.D. I think that's not a particularly good way of looking at it because [6:13] it sets it up as a battle. He's basically preaching the gospel. And look, in the gospels, [6:18] Jesus says, blessed are the peacemakers, not blessed are the warmongers. And after the resurrection, [6:23] he appears to the frightened disciples and says, peace be with you, not vengeance is mine. So [6:27] the pope is proclaiming the gospel and these Christian messages of peace. And if it has a [6:31] political implication, I think he feels so be it. But he's not looking to fight with President Trump [6:37] or any other political leader. J.D. Do you worry at all that this pulls him into what are seen as [6:42] partisan or political battles? J.D. No, I'm not worried at all because he's sticking to the gospels. I think [6:47] what worries me the most is that when President Trump attacks the pope, attacks the Holy Father, [6:53] he gives free reign to a lot of anti-Catholicism and also, you know, just sort of denigrates the [7:02] office and denigrates a really important moral voice, which I think people should listen to. [7:06] What are you hearing from members of the Catholic community at this time about [7:10] all of these headlines about the pope's leadership and these public feuds that we're seeing? [7:14] J.D. Well, I would say Catholics from traditional Catholics to progressive Catholics were really [7:20] pretty appalled. And, you know, you know, people have been saying it's ironic because, you know, [7:25] this is the one thing that has sort of pulled the Catholic community together in the United States. [7:28] But there's a great deal of love and affection for Pope Leo. I think he has something like an 84% [7:33] approval rating. But people like the guy. And so to see someone disparage the pope, which is really, [7:40] you know, disparaging the representative of the Catholic Church and therefore disparaging the [7:43] Catholic Church is very hard for people to take. So pretty much all the Catholics I've talked to have [7:49] been appalled. [7:50] J.D. Do you think there's anything to this being the first American pope that makes him more of [7:55] a focus of the American president's ire when he feels he disagrees with them? [7:59] J.D. I think that's accurate, because I think you can no longer use the excuse, [8:04] as some people did under Pope Francis and even Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul, [8:08] that the pope doesn't understand the United States. So I think that gives his [8:13] critiques or what are perceived as critiques a lot more weight. [8:16] J.D. That is the Reverend James Martin, editor at large of America magazine, joining us tonight. [8:22] Father Martin, thank you. It's always good to speak with you. [8:24] Father Martin, thank you. [8:25] Father Martin, thank you. My pleasure.