Petroleum Min Hardeep Singh Puri Exclusive — Will E20 Fuel Reduce Mileage? Hardeep Puri Responds

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Viewers, we're here with Mr. Hardeep Puri, who is India's Petroleum Minister. Let's not forget we're speaking in the backdrop of a big debate that is raging across social media and now of course the political establishment on E-20 fuel and whether it is actually chewing up car engines and whether this E-20 petrol that we're consuming is actually good for the nation but not so good for consumers. That's the argument. So let's put all these questions that you've been asking friends for now a few weeks to the Minister himself. Thank you sir for taking the time out. Let me begin by asking you the basics. Why did India advance the E-20 target by five years? [00:00:46] Hardeep Puri: We did not advance the target. Targets are invariably set, taking into account your past experience. E-20, blended fuels, earlier targets in India, we've been talking about them for a long period of time but we've never been able to get there. I mean it was not the Modi government which started talking about biofuels. I want to inject a personal element. I was ambassador of India to Brazil in 2006 and I stayed there till I went in January 2006, stayed there till May 2008. Every possible visitor from India with an interest in the agro economy wanted to learn about their ethanol experience. So somebody said you know Brazil took such a long time to get there. Brazil was exactly in the position in which we find ourselves now in 2006 when I went there and that was 20 years ago. Alright, Brazil was at E-20. When the Modi government took over, the target which had been set was already at 5%, that also in only 10 of the states and union territories. But they couldn't achieve. The overall target achievement was only 1.4-1.5%. So when the new government assumed office, they did some homework. They looked at the pluses and minuses and realized that for the Indian economy, biofuels were an imperative. An imperative that needed to be pursued vigorously. So a target was set of E-10. That is 10% blending by November 2022. That is the first point. And when you were setting that November 22 target, you also set a 20% target and I'll come to that later. But why were the earlier targets not achieved and why was the 10% target achieved of E-10? Because this was a government which knew how to work and how to work as a whole, as one entity. If you devise an ecosystem, you have to look at a number of factors. You have to look at the automobile manufacturers. You have to look at the feed. You have to look at the, you know, service stations, etc. So when we set a target for E-10 for 22 November, I became minister in the month of July 2021. I think five years ago exactly. One of the first things I did was to invite a delegation from Brazil with my counterpart and all the automobile manufacturers who are here. I don't know what car you drive, Japanese cars, German cars, German cars, etc. And then we asked them what happened? Because if a Toyota car manufactured by the Toyota company in Japan and Brazil can work on biofuels, there's no reason why it shouldn't work here. But there were some other things which needed to be done. One is you needed to produce the biofuels. The biofuels. And you needed to diversify the feeds. So two or three major decisions we took. This, we encouraged the producers who are all in the private sector. They're around the agricultural economy. We encouraged them to enter into off-take agreements with the purchaser, which is the companies which would be procuring the ethanol from them. And we diversified the food. And we diversified the feed. Initially, Rahul, we were only producing biofuels from C-heavy and B-heavy molasses, which means, you know, after the sugar crop, the cane is crushed, etc., all that dark residue, which remained. We added other things. Clearly, the adding of sugar syrup helped, along with the guaranteed off-take. Guaranteed off-take. But the real breakthrough came when this program, which was supposed to be done by November 22, we suddenly discovered that by May of that year, five months in advance, we were able to do it. Suddenly, the entire ecosystem of setting targets changed. The entire ecosystem. They said, "You don't have to wait for 2030 because you would have got the winning formula." Now, why we did it several years in advance? Because it was a successful experiment. And by the way, we were not the only country in the world which was moving like that. Brazil, by the way, now, when you say that Brazil took along, Brazil has moved now from E27, which is 27% basic blend, they are moving on to, I think, 32% or thereabouts. Okay, I put all that aside. I come back to something very basic. We have been at 10% blending and 15% blending and 20% blending for a long time now. Can you break it down? Yes, I'll tell you. We were at 10% blending in November 22, May 22. We were three and a half years ago at 15% blending. And from April 2025, that is 18, 19 months ago, we were at 20% blending. And E19 you were in 2024 or something? No, just before that. Just before that. Because once you reach 20% blending in April, because it's a slow increase. So you're saying that we've been E15+ for about five years now. Exactly. Now I'm coming to something more. I'm coming to something more. [00:06:24] Speaker 1: So you rushed into this. I have compiled for you a statement. I'll tell you why they're saying this. They're saying that there are Western Uttar Pradesh sugarcane farmers. Elections are coming up. Assembly elections make or break for this government 2027. These guys have rushed into this to benefit those farmers to get votes. [00:06:45] Hardeep Puri: That's the, that's the... But, but you know, this point misses the fundamental thing. We are moving away from sugar syrup to maize. Maize today accounts for 35% of the thing. I'm not saying that sea heavy molasses or B heavy molasses or sugar syrup is not going to be used. Secondly, this argument about election, I've been hearing since the time I was born in this system. You know, abhi chunav hone wale hain, aap ne abdaam bada di hain. Pichle panch saal mein kitne chunav aai. Kisi bhi, we did not increase the price of petrol in the last four, petrol and diesel or of these blends. In the last four years, I'm now going from May 2022 to May 2026, Rahul prices in India have actually come down. And the reason they've come down, one of the main reasons is that we are also doing biofuel blending because we procure the different qualities of feed, different kinds of feed. I'll just give you a small breakdown. C heavy molasses, we produce, procure at around 57 rupees a litre. B heavy molasses at around 60 rupees a litre, a little over 60.73. Sugarcane, juice, sugar syrup at 65. Damaged food grains, these are food grains not fit for consumption, 64 rupees a litre. FCI rice. Now, what happens is, under the MSP, you procure the rice, it goes into a go down. It can either rot there or it can be produced into ethanol. And finally, maize at 71 rupees 86 pies. Now, 20% of the blending has been done through this diverse feeds. But if you look at the pattern, we are moving away from water intense crops to less water intense. Because one part of the debate. Yeah, because people say that [00:08:36] Speaker 1: when you cultivate sugarcane, it drains the water, the subsoil water, the water tables collapse, they've even given the numbers. And then you move into paddy, which is even more water intensive. So, this is [00:08:49] Hardeep Puri: very bad. That's why C heavy molasses, B heavy molasses, if you look at the total percentage of what we've done, I think, you know, percentage contribution, C heavy molasses is now 1.1%. B heavy molasses is 46%. Damaged food grain, surplus rice, if you look at all these, but the main thing is today, your major thing is maize. And maize is what 35% or so. My view is that that is much letter, requires much less water. But let me come to another point. What are the benefits? Because you fix these prices of procurement once in a year, they are not subject to the fluctuation of the ongoing shootout in the state of Hormuz. All right. If we were to be dependent entirely on imports of crude and you are importing what 85, 88, 89%, then when the price goes up from 72 to 120, the price at the retail point would go not from 100, it would come to 200 rupees a litre. I mean, off the mind. But people are saying, okay, you're mixing all of this ethanol. It should be cheaper. It should be cheaper. Why shouldn't it be cheaper? That's precisely which the logic has been made to stand on its head. Because ethanol is imported fuel, cuts it down, 20% of it down. For instance, today I'm importing 5.6 million barrels I'm consuming of crude oil for my refineries to make diesel, petrol, motor, other product. I import 20% less because of the blending. I save 1.90 crores, 1.9 crores, 1.9 lakh crores. I give to my farmer 1.6 lakh crores. And if you look at the development of, you mentioned one state, let me give you another. Look at the development of parts of rural Bihar. Because of the maize procurement, suddenly the entire area has begun. You heard of farmer suicide. It's not my case that farmer suicides have stopped only because of the ethanol program. [00:11:07] Speaker 1: So how much additional crude oil would we have imported had we not been blending? [00:11:13] Hardeep Puri: I have to figure something. I think it should be around 12 lakh crores of additional the additional crores. Let me again, I think it's 12. No, one minute. Crude oil substitution, 309.9 lakh, 8 lakh metric tons. No. Yes. That would have been the additional we would have had to import. Now, if you break that down into barrels, it comes to, well, I would say, I can work out the figure, but look at that along with carbon dioxide emission. [00:11:56] Speaker 1: So how much foreign exchange would India? 1.9 lakh crores. You would, you would say 1.9 lakh crores? This is what we have saved. [00:12:03] Hardeep Puri: You have saved. We have saved. This is a year on year? No, no. It is a total. It's a continuum. I used to cite a figure of about much less when we had done 10% blending. And as we go, but you know, the total amount of foreign exchange saved is also calculated on the international price prevailing at that point of time. If you would ask me this question three days ago, when the price of Brent was [00:12:25] Speaker 1: 68, today it's, well, 88 or so, I don't know. Okay. So beyond import savings, what measurable benefits has E20 delivered in terms of emission reductions? Do you have any numbers on that? Emission reductions, I do have enough. Farmer incomes, rural economic activity, [00:12:41] Hardeep Puri: what have you, you just talked about the Bihar example. I gave you the farmers who are paid 1.4 lakh crores. Okay. That's absolutely quantified. Those are payments which have actually been delivered. On carbon dioxide emission lowered up to now, it's 931.502 lakh metric tons. That's a huge amount. [00:13:03] Speaker 1: Okay. Now, so you're saying that the benefits are outweighing? Far outweighing. Far outweighing the cost. So let's talk a little bit about the cost. [00:13:11] Hardeep Puri: Because of cost… No, but let me also, when we say it's far outweighing, it's apart from, you're looking at carbon dioxide emission, that's one thing. The entire energy debate today, prior to this, what I call rent-a-cause, you know, earlier I used to hear about rent-a-crowd, when you wanted to do a demonstration. This is now, suddenly something is trending. A lot of people who do not know the ABC of energy economics or automobile engineering are wading into it. You always proceed, when you are talking about technology, from the current to a more environmentally sustainable phase. Ethanol is only one step in that direction. My submission to you, Rahul, is that the real fuel of the future will be green hydrogen. Because what you require from, for green hydrogen will be reasonably priced solar energy. We have demonstrated that we can reduce the cost from 25 cents to 3 cents megawatt. And you need an electrolyzer. And as we have those 15 IOCL buses flying on Delhi's road, all they will emit is carbon dioxide. Now, if you take that as the ultimate, and we should get there in some years' time, in the meantime, you want to use every possible cleaner fuel. The carbon emissions through E-20 is less than the carbon emission from pure petrol. E-20 is better than E-10. And I think the controversy arose because some people who have a vested interest and not a full understanding... Vested interest? 100%. What would be their interest? See, E-10 and E-20, E-15 have been around... 10, 15, 20 have been around, in my view, since 2022. Okay. All these years, Suzuki Motors says they service 1.5 crore vehicles overall. They've serviced not one case of engine damage due to this. Today, we have 20 crore two-wheelers plying on E-20. We have 20 lakh four-wheelers plying on E-20. The 1.5 crore vehicles that Suzuki has serviced are all older vehicles. I mean, I used to have a car, which was 2012, saying I was using it till, you know, emission control and other issues got involved, because an older car getting a PUC, etc. Today, we are in a comfortable situation of saying, there are no cases of engine damage. The manufacturers attest to that. There is a man called Madras Mechanic who has given a very technical analysis. I think one of the... He's been appearing on TV shows also. He said there's nothing. When did the problem... [00:16:03] Speaker 1: He talks about F1 and so and so forth. But F1 itself, in any case, has sort of stopped using E-20. [00:16:10] Hardeep Puri: No, they're using E-10. They're using E-10. But it's a mixed look. In Brazil, when I was there, the racing cars were using even a higher blend. But that's not the issue. Today, I think for F1, the standard is E-10, E-5. But those cars are very suited up. They're designed for this. Are our cars designed? No, no, I'll come to that. Ethanol has an octane count, if I remember correctly, of 104.8. Normal petrol has an octane count of something like 80. It comes to warranty. Do you want so much acceleration? It's very clear that an ethanol blended car has better acceleration. It is also very clear that it has a better knocking. The problem comes on loss in mileage. Now, loss in mileage, how do you calculate that? A modern car could be, say, it gives you 21 kilometers a liter. If it's technologically advanced, you may lose 3 percent or so as a result of that. But my suggestion to you is, it depends equally on your driving habits. Now, if you drive a car, the way a normal, mature, middle-aged person or a senior citizen will drive without zigzag, without too much acceleration, without trying to overtake from the wrong side, right, you will not lose that mileage. In any case, the mileage debate has to be looked at in the context of an overall thing. Because you get better acceleration, better octane count and no damage to a vehicle. [00:17:44] Speaker 1: No, hang on. The ARAI reportedly found, and this is a report that appeared in the Times of India, it's an unpublished report, I have to say this, that E-20 could accelerate deteriorating of certain fuel system components in vehicles designed for E-10. We're not talking about E-20 here, E-10. While one BS-6 turbocharged engine showed issues during extended testing, what exactly did the testing reveal and how were those concerns addressed? Let me answer this question to you frontally. If you look at the, whichever report you're citing, [00:18:19] Hardeep Puri: but the number of reports you're citing, I'm going into something totally different. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Here, Suzuki, the company says they have serviced 1.5 crore vehicles and there's no damage. I am aware of a lot of discussion which has taken place. A lot of people sit down, I don't know what car you drive. A Volkswagen. What year vintage? I'm sorry, I should not be questioning you. No, it's a 2016. All right, you're driving a 2016? I was driving a Japanese car of 2014, 12 or 14. I think it's a 2012 model, bought in 2014 when I came back. Believe me, there was no drop in mileage whatsoever. The reason I gave up the car, because after 12 years, you know, you are advised by your well-wishers, they go, now the car is getting older, why don't you get... No, no, I'm talking [00:19:07] Speaker 1: about these reports, which are... And look, public is also saying that, look, there are issues, this, that, the other. So, there's compatibility concerns. Forget about the mileage. The mileage is an issue and many people are also saying, sir, to be honest, that perhaps the time has come that you compensate people by bringing the price down. So, that's one issue. But this business of this eating into, you know, the few... [00:19:29] Hardeep Puri: No, let me answer that question to you, frankly. The one conclusion that all the people I've talked to have said, that if you have a very old vehicle, then some of the plastic parts, particularly the gasket, which normally would be replaced after 50,000 kilometers, you might have to, if you're using ethanol blend, to remove, to change it after 30,000. Now, the warranty issue comes in. First of all, a lot of rumors were being spread here that, you know, the insurance companies would not honor it. All that has been clarified. But the change after 30,000 kilometers of a gasket, which normally would have to be changed after 50,000, it's such a small price. That's a limited point I make. [00:20:15] Speaker 1: So, I want to ask you, because this is something that, again, is the follow-up question to this. That, look, all this is fine, but why don't you give a choice, number one? [00:20:28] Hardeep Puri: I'm so happy you asked that question. [00:20:29] Speaker 1: Okay, so, that's one thing. Number two, why is it that the car manuals are saying that E10, beyond that, could be a problem? That's what two or three of these car manuals, which some of your political opponents have brought out, have said, and it's in black and white. [00:20:45] Hardeep Puri: Because the car manual was produced when there was no E20 around, to begin with, to start with. Let me also put another thing. No, but they were saying that E10, more than E10, is a problem, so E20 would be… No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's not, it's not as simple as that. E10 as a target was set up by November 22, all right? You have a car which you purchased in 2016. 16. I had a car which I had purchased in 2014. I think it was a 2012 model purchase in 2014, or my memory is not precise. It was much before E10 came on the wheel, and yet the only blended fuel you can buy on the market, unless you're buying that high octane, you know, with additives, you're not buying that. Journalists are not paid that much, so I have to go with… I'd be happy to exchange places with you, but that's a discussion not on camera. But let me just put it this way. If a car bought in 2016, well before E10 comes on the wheel, and it's running all right, so let's not think when the manual was produced, what the manual was designed on. For instance, today, we are going to be selling, now you're talking about price, and I want to come to choice in a minute. We're going to be selling E85, 20 rupees cheaper than normal E20. Why? Because it is enables us. But E85 is only fit for use in vehicles which are E85 compliant. So people are mixing up a lot of these things. A lot of the discussion which is taking place, reports which were conceived, discussions which were held. The fact of the matter is, you cannot have all automobile manufacturers present in India testifying to the sanctity of the operation when the same guys in Germany, Japan, Brazil are doing it. What is so special about India? I'm prepared to concede that there may be a few cases of damage. I read a report which was sent to Mr. Gatkari by someone and the Toyota motor company ended up suing that person instead because it was a false report. And today, if there is a problem at a dispensing station where the fuel taken is in, it may be a problem elsewhere. It's not in the blended fuel. Choice, now coming to choice. Because look, you always, when you have choice, you go from what you have to something better. I have never heard of choice being asked for to go back into something which is more toxic, which is more dependent. And the ethanol branding program will also produce Atma Nirbharta. So my question is, why would anybody be asking for a choice which is inferior? You always go to something superior than that. Unless you are, since you are not able to demonstrate damage and you want to create chaos, and this is rent a cause. I mean, I did an analysis of all the people who are coming and I don't like to call people names. I use the words Rahul about somebody and it pained me. I said, there's a lot of misrepresentation. Minister Puri is saying, we the people are liars. First of all, have some humility. You are an individual activist who is neither an automobile engineer nor do you have even a nodding acquaintance with the fuel or the other issues involved and you are advocating we the people. I demand. Let's take it easy. All this was, I didn't hear a murmur before 5th June. On 5th June, on World Environment Day, Mr. Gadkari and I announced that we are introducing E85. E85 meant that big economic interest, I use the word vested interest, maybe that's not correct. Economic interest would get affected. What are you saying? What economic interest? You buy 88% of the of your imports of fossil fuel. If somehow you are able to produce E85 in large measure, your and you have some Samudra Manthan, your domestic ENP program taking off, that takes off, EVs take off, domestic imports of crude oil come crashing down. Isn't there big money in that? I mean, staring you in the face. Why did this start on 5th June, on World Environment Day? Before that, there was never a murmur. Now it's one month exactly. Every day, some new person. I did an analysis, if you allow me to complete. I found people, I found it very important. There was a young lady somewhere in one of the states in western India. She made her name by posting cooking recipes. When they were not getting resonance, she charted around saying one issue which is getting resonance is ethanol. Amazing, amazing. And these kind of people come into it. Today, one political leader, I do not want to name him, he is talking about price and he said it should be selling at 82, not 102. My dear sir, because we are using a blended program, we are able to keep the prices 102. If there was no ethanol blended program and we would be buying 20% more crude, I gave you the extra crude which we would have to buy, 309.98 lakh metric tons. You know what that means? I would have had to buy more, but more than the issue of quantity. Rahul, if tomorrow, I hope this doesn't happen and you and I are not not certainly on that. Supposing this shootout lasts another week or 10 days and the price of Brent goes up from where it's in the 80s, it goes to 120s. How can you sell price lower? Because you've got ethanol blending 20%, you're able to sell it lower. So the logic defies me. I mean, and I think it's [00:26:41] Speaker 1: rent a cost, nothing more. So let me ask you very pointedly, has the government conducted a comprehensive cost-benefit analysis comparing national crude oil savings, since you're talking about this, with the higher per-kilometer fuel costs that consumers may face? It's very simple. [00:26:57] Hardeep Puri: Consumers are not paying a higher per-kilometer. If the droppage and mileage is 3% or 5%, no one is going to be going down that road. Because today... No, some people are saying it could be 20, it's 18. They can say they should take their cars there and say that nobody is saying it. And why were they're not saying it before June? Rahul, this is not serious. You have a lot of people who come together and they're making issue. One of these activists say, okay, all I want now is choice. They say everything else is okay. Government is... All I want now is choice. But I say your choice, you can say now let's go to... They say Brazil has choice. They say the US has choice. It goes there. It goes there. Brazil has choice because Brazil has now gone 27 to 32. That is the choice. The choice is not to go to zero. So you're saying the choice is upwards or downwards. Always, always to something better. Today, the countries which have that are all at E15, I think, US and others. US wants to go further. But again, US has the same issue. They make ethanol from maize. And there's an import duty on sugar-based ethanol, etc. But that's not relevant for [00:28:05] Speaker 1: our discussion. So let me ask you, because, you know, you're saying, and it's a valid argument from your side, but there's a counter to this. So when you, when I ask you that, look, why don't we cut the cost of E20? You say, oh, because if we did not put E20, we'd be even paying more for the fuel. [00:28:23] Hardeep Puri: First of all, first of all, let's demystify this. We start, we don't set, the government doesn't set a cost. There are 107, 107,000 dispensing stations for petrol and diesel and in the country. They are both private sector and public sector. The private sector are purely based on profit. The public sector wants a good corporate citizens, but they also are answerable to their, to their shareholders. Now, if we do E20 blending, the government comes in with a policy for blend. Government fixes the price for the procurement. If your point is, we should procure a lesser amount, procure lesser amount, then you're paying your farmer a lesser amount also. And the farmer must be willing to sell it a lower price. But by the way, are you saying you're prioritizing farming? No, I'm not saying, I'm saying something more basic. There are 193 countries, members of the United Nations. India has the lowest price amongst those countries. The lowest, if you talk about the increase, again, you took at the 193 countries. Japan has probably the increase was less and our companies were losing one, how much? 75,000 crore loss as a result of the hormone. So who's, who's making, doing the advocacy? Rahul, these are philosophers, philosophizing with a false conscience. Bring this down to compensate him. That man is not complaining. [00:29:59] Speaker 1: You're planting ideas. Because now, I'm playing devil's advocate here. You said four years back, we started moving E15 plus. Four years back, crude prices were quite low. After the 2022 war, things started easing for us. We got a big dividend. At that time, we could have passed on some of the benefits. [00:30:16] Hardeep Puri: We did. We did. Absolutely. If you look at the reason why prices were maintained and brought down in four years, because you were passing the dividend down to them. See, again, as I said, these are philosophers philosophizing with a false conscience. What were the prices of all the other products in India and the neighbourhood? Let me take LPG, for instance. Every time the public sector oil marketing companies were making an average loss of LPG per annum, about 30,000 crore. A government was compensating them. Isn't government passing it on? Government is providing a subsidy for that. And what are the comparisons? LPG market price should be 1600 rupees a cylinder. We are selling it at 942. You're passing it on. You are helping your farmer. You are helping your consumer. You are helping economically weaker section. So, these guys don't know what they're talking about. [00:31:13] Speaker 1: Okay. So, let's look a little beyond. And let me ask you, what practical support does the government have? Let's assume that there are problems. Because I'm finding it a little strange that maybe your ministry hasn't asked vehicle owners to provide a white paper. Sorry, automobile manufacturers to provide a white paper. [00:31:33] Hardeep Puri: We have done that. We have done that. We are in constant touch with them. I am in touch with the owners, with the manufacturers, with the measure. Please, before 5th June, these issues are not raised. If anybody wants to have an open session, I'm always ready. But you don't go with a gun pointing at somebody that you have to do this. You should be selling everything. So, are you saying that you have [00:31:53] Speaker 1: been speaking to automobile manufacturers in the last few days asking them for data? Oh, absolutely. [00:31:58] Hardeep Puri: Yeah. What's the data been? No, this is exactly what I'm saying is the data. Automobile manufacturer is not here for altruistic or philanthropic purposes. They are in a business company and they are doing very well. BMW is hoping to displace Mercedes as the largest foreign luxury car maker. So, what I'm trying to tell you is that we are talking to them on a constant basis. I am talking to them. My senior officials are talking to them. Make their separate issues. Can I just point it out? One is safety. That's been looked at. Okay. Price. Well, we said we are the lowest and because of these factors that we were able to sell at the lowest, issue a warranty, totally taken care of. Now, going forward from here, if you talk about choice, choice has to be to do something better. Please let me know one automobile right now. I mean, I'm not going to go. You're not going to go. I mean, I was an enthusiast when I was a child and that used to be a passion. But today, all I can say is you have blue DTC buses, you have all kinds of other. I have what 15 buses running on green hydrogen here. You're always approximating to go higher. And that is what the exercise of choice is all about. One analyst that I was speaking to said [00:33:38] Speaker 1: that look, all of this can be all set aside if we upgrade our EV program, go harder at diversifying into EVs and hydrogen, et cetera, et cetera. We don't even have to bother about ethanol which drains the environment, it's catastrophic, this, that, the other to the water table and so and so forth. [00:33:56] Hardeep Puri: Rahul, please use the word expert with some degree of caution. I am an expert. I am a student of learning. The entire EV program is something I solidly support. But at the end of the day, if you look at studies, which are conducted by PP and all the others, they will tell you one fundamental truth that the EV program is dependent on imported batteries. Imported batteries are dependent on lithium and other critical minerals. And if you get choked off at some stage, so if you are looking at Atmanir Bharta, biofuels and green hydrogen gives you that exit. So any expert who will tell you this can, by the way, I am entirely in favor of the EV program because I personally believe there is enough in the growing Indian consumer market, enough space for vehicles which are pure EVs, hybrid vehicles, the kind of cars that we now have at up to 40 kilometers an hour, they are driving on battery. Once you accelerate and the battery gets charged after that and they are using flexi fuel. But going forward, you cannot depend on one part because as I said, the battery imports suddenly stops. You will have what, 100 crore vehicles in India. I am just giving you a figure offhand. You have a population of 150 crore, 1.5 billion people. Well, the number of vehicles must be what, 20, 30 crores, if not more. If you look at the two-wheeler population, that's about 60, 70 percent. I know there's about 20 crore plus there. So you cannot make yourself vulnerable to such uncertainties. [00:36:01] Speaker 1: And you've had supply-side disruptions in the past. A couple of questions as we wind down. You've now talked about E25. [00:36:10] Hardeep Puri: No, we haven't. This is, again, part of the problem. We announced, and I'm going to share with you and please make this available to your viewers, we've done an exact calendar charting because I said that you rushed into this. I've shown you what we've done in the last five years. E25 was merely a spark which somebody lit because we had gone to BIS for fixing standards and fixing excise duty rates for the fuels when we get there. E25 is only being tested now. How long will the testing take place? I mean, a very dear friend of mine, who is an editor of a newspaper, wrote a brilliant editorial the other day. I had to call him. I said, well done. But there's one flaw. You say that we should make haste slowly in going to E25. We haven't even decided on it. E25 is only being tested now. As I said, around 5th June, there was a few bright minds got together somewhere. They conspired and raised a lot of things. Today, as we speak, most of those guys have fallen off their stools because nobody is taking them seriously. They're being ridiculed. We're saying, what happened, which are the real guys. Mr. Gadkar is actually issued an invitation. Anybody who's got engine damage due to the blended fuel, come to me. We discover in some other cases, something totally different. Let me conclude with one point. One of the leading Indian dailies, not now, two years ago, one of the, when I was housing an urban affairs minister, in addition to this, they wrote something about major drop in mileage between here, in his vehicle. I asked, this person was identified. I asked the correspondent, I said, can you put me in touch with that person? He said, no, why do you want to? I said, no, I don't want to. I will get somebody from Engineers India Limited to call that person. He gave the number. When that Engineers India Limited person called this person, I remember his name also. He said, please, I don't want to touch it. I was told to go on the in front of a mic and say that there is a drop. I asked this person, where do you live in Gurugram? Where do you do your visits? Delhi. So then when he said, do you realize what the traffic conditions are between Delhi and Gurugram? He said, that's why I don't want to come on record.