Peter Schiff & Grant Cardone Debate Housing Crash Vs. Economic Boom

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: If I think Bitcoin's going to a million dollars, if I'm really bullish on Bitcoin, why do I want to give you 50% of my upside? Well, you're just selling greed trying to get people to buy your Bitcoin real estate hybrid. [00:00:12] Speaker 2: You act like the world's coming to the end. We're about to move into the greatest economic expansion since the Industrial Revolution. It's going to be deflationary, not inflationary. 50% of all the loans in this country are below 4%. And they have 27 years left on that term. Yeah, think about the losses. Those homes will not be discounted, Peter. You're not going to see a 50% drop in any single family homes in this country. [00:00:39] Speaker 3: With concerns of the labor market on the rise and, of course, affordability continues to be an issue with the oil price very high and inflation being very high, millions of Americans are asking themselves, where should we put our capital? What is the safest place to build wealth right now? Joining me today are two esteemed guests on the show before. Grant Cardone, founder and CEO of Cardone Capital. Peter Schiff, economist, host of the Peter Schiff podcast. And chief economist at Euro Pacific Asset Management to talk about this issue. Welcome, gentlemen. Very good to have you both together. Thank you. [00:01:13] Speaker 2: Good to be with you, David and Peter. Peter, let me ask you, Peter. How many economists, Peter, does it take to actually get the economy correct? [00:01:23] Speaker 1: Well, if it's me, I guess one. Okay. But if Keynesian economists, I don't even think, it doesn't matter how many you get, they're never going to get it right. [00:01:34] Speaker 2: Yeah. Because I have an accounting and an economic background, and I noticed the same thing that one, they seem to, they never get it right for their own families. [00:01:45] Speaker 1: Well, the joke is, the joke is that they invented economists to make weathermen look good. [00:01:52] Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe that's it. Well, okay. Well, this, this, I mean, you're both, you're both very knowledgeable in the economy. All right. This started because actually it wasn't even my idea. I can't take credit for this. This was technically Peter's idea. This started because Peter called Grant out a couple months ago. This is the ex post. Combining real estate with Bitcoin solves nothing. Grant Cardone claims REITs need Bitcoin on their balance sheets to sell so they can pay for repairs and maintenance, but real estate throws off rental income. Which can be used to cover those ongoing costs. Happy to debate this, and I'm happy to set this up. Okay, before I, before I get Peter to talk about why he wrote that tweet, Grant, what have you been doing with Cardone Ventures that I guess prompted Peter to, to, to comment on, on your holdings here? [00:02:40] Speaker 2: Yeah, first of all, I don't know what, what got Peter's attention on this to say that. I did not say that REITs should add Bitcoin to their balance sheet because legally they cannot, it would destroy their structure. They can never, ever add a Bitcoin to their balance sheet. Peter probably knows that too. And 90% of all their revenue or cashflow has to be distributed back to their investors in order to even keep their REIT status. But it does create an opening for a guy like me. That's not a REIT to add Bitcoin to my balance sheet, to solve many, many problems of real estate and create a new financial product. So when he says combining the two together solves nothing, I've onboarded about 3,000 people into this platform. We've raised, we've done a billion dollars worth of transactions, a couple of hundred million dollars of Bitcoin in 18 months by combining, taking real estate to cash flows. We're buying it below replacement costs, which Peter knows we can steal real estate right now. He's, he's been predicting that for, I don't know, since 2006. And, um, and then we add Bitcoin between the costs that we're paying and the replacement costs. We add Bitcoin and still have positive cashflow so that we create a new financial product. So it does solve something, you know, and by the way, my audience has absolutely loved [00:04:09] Speaker 1: it. Yeah. Well, no, I was responding to an actual interview in which you said that there were the problem that I thought you called it REITs was that they had to distribute all of their income and then therefore they didn't have any money left over to deal with maintenance or other problems, which is not true because those are deductible expenses. They, they, they, they, they subtract all of those costs before they have the dividends that they have to distribute. So they've got plenty of cashflow to deal with maintenance. They don't need Bitcoin to do that, but I would be interested. Uh, you claim that having Bitcoin solve some problems for you. I would be curious as to what problems you have with your real estate portfolio that are solved by Bitcoin. [00:04:57] Speaker 2: Well, a couple of things. Okay. First of all, it would in the future, by the way, I think what, what you saw the interview that you're referring to is I'm suggesting that if a REIT could have had Bitcoin on their platform, uh, for the last five or six years, they would have solved a couple of problems. One is future CapEx. [00:05:17] Speaker 1: Uh, that's why Bitcoin hasn't, hasn't done anything in five years. It's gone sideways with, what, what, what, what number you want to take five years or six [00:05:25] Speaker 2: years? [00:05:26] Speaker 1: Well, it's about to say Bitcoin hasn't really gone anywhere. [00:05:29] Speaker 2: I mean, but it would still be, it would still be a liquid asset on, on their capital account that they could use for, uh, to, for CapEx. But what, yeah, but they could, they could, they could have bought gold, they could have [00:05:42] Speaker 1: bought silver, they could have bought the S and P 500. I mean, how many different investments do you think real estate companies should make? I mean, there's a lot of things they could have done that, that went up more than Bitcoin. [00:05:52] Speaker 3: Grant, a chance to respond here. [00:05:53] Speaker 1: Thanks. [00:05:54] Speaker 2: Yeah. They, they actually can't hold securities either. So I, I don't know what kind of economist you are, but, uh, you sort of don't want to make an exception for Bitcoin. Because, because what I'm doing is taking a very volatile product, Bitcoin, and adding it to a very stable asset, one that cash flows and one that doesn't, one that has volatility, one that doesn't, one that's easily leverageable as the real estate is. And the Bitcoin's not, and I'm combining the two and over long periods of time, as we hold the real estate, I have the liquidity of the Bitcoin 24, seven, three 65 to handle CapEx, to handle the debt situation that we're in right now. I have four loans maturing right now. I wish I had Bitcoin on that platform for those. But I mean, Grant, by definition, you don't want to understand because it's a new product. So you can't, you can't actually know what it is because you haven't seen the product yet. [00:06:46] Speaker 1: You know, I know common sense would say that if I want to have a rainy day fund to deal with, you know, CapEx or other problems, I want a stable, not a volatile asset, because what if when I need it, Bitcoin is way down and I now I have to sell my Bitcoin at a big loss because I happen to need the money and Bitcoin is down. I mean, you don't want to have a volatile asset as what you're planning on using to handle those contingencies. [00:07:14] Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know if you want to talk about common sense. Let's talk about practical common sense. I don't know how much real estate you own, but I have 16,000 apartments. I've been doing this for 40 years. It's about $6 billion worth of real estate. We're adding $600 million here before the end of the year. We're buying institutional quality asset. There's cash flow positive day one. And I know that had I been doing this for the last 13 years, my real estate portfolio would look completely different and it would have benefited all the REITs as well. Combining because Bitcoin went up over the last 13 years. [00:07:49] Speaker 3: That's what the benefit of hindsight. Before we continue with the video, let's talk about your personal privacy. October is Cybersecurity Awareness Month and according to the FTC, Americans reported losing over $3.5 billion to imposter scams just last year. So here are three quick tips from today's sponsor, Delete Me. First, if an unexpected email looks legit, check the domain it came from. Second, don't answer spam calls. Picking up the phone tells scammers your number is currently active. And third, search your own name online. Your address and phone number are often listed on people search sites for anybody to buy. And that last one is where Delete Me comes in. They find those listings, get them removed, and keep checking. Since June 2024, they've been scanning for me and my latest report shows 293 records reviewed. As you can see, it saved me over 20 hours of searching myself. Scan the QR code on the screen here or go to the link down below. Join DeleteMe.com slash DavidLynn and use my promo code DavidLynn for 20% off. Take control of your privacy today. Okay, Peter, let me ask you. Peter, please let me ask you something. [00:09:03] Speaker 2: Like, you've been predicting that, I think since 2000, what, the early 2000 goal was going to do something, and it never did. [00:09:12] Speaker 1: Well, let me make a point about it, because I did a little homework before the interview to look at your fund. So from what I understand, the fund puts 85% initially into real estate and 15% into Bitcoin. [00:09:29] Speaker 2: Well, that was our first deal. Our last deal, our last deal we did, just so you have all the data, because when you said you did a little research, it was very little. Yeah, I did very little. I admit, it was very little. I knew the minimal I could do. The first deal we did, the first deal we ever did, it was 85% real estate, $72 million real estate purchase with a $3.6 million NOI, and we did $17 million of Bitcoin. Okay? Both the real estate and the Bitcoin are up today. All right. I'm getting the positive of two assets, not one. All right. Let me finish. Positive cash flow. Hang on a second. Hang on a second. Again, you'll never get an education if you just talk. Okay? And every month, we're buying more Bitcoin. Yesterday, we bought at $80,000 out of the cash flow that is distributed by that asset at $360,000 a month. And in addition to that, we're about to put new debt on that asset because we paid cash for both, and we're going to buy another 500 Bitcoin from a refinance or a finance event where we'll add 500 Bitcoin. We'll end up with about 700 Bitcoin in that platform, and the real estate, and the cash flow, and the depreciation, and we have two assets, not one. [00:10:51] Speaker 1: Yeah, I get that. But this is my point. Let's say I'm a guy, I'm bullish on real estate, and I'm bullish on Bitcoin, right? And I want to own both assets. I understand the value that you add, you know, in real estate. Let's say if I only got $100,000 to invest, and I'd rather say, you know what? I'm going to let Grant Condon take my $100,000. You're going to pick the properties for me. You're going to manage them. You're going to collect the rents, and you're going to get me a lot more diversification that I can get on my own, right? So it's worth paying you a fee. But why am I going to pay you? I understand you have a 1% management fee, and then you take 50% of the profits above an 8% hurdle rate. Now, I mean, that seems a little rich, but I'm not even going to discuss the 50%. But the point is, if I think Bitcoin's going to a million dollars, if I'm really bullish on Bitcoin, why do I want to give you 50% of my upside? Why don't I just take that $15,000, buy my own Bitcoin, pay no management fee, keep 100% of the profits, and just put $85,000 into your fund? Or instead of investing $15,000 in Bitcoin, I put $7,500 in Bitcoin, I got the same upside as $15,000 with you. I got less downside, and then I have $7,500 to do something else with. [00:12:15] Speaker 2: Why wouldn't I just do that? Hey, I agree. I agree with much of your rationale there, okay? Because except for this, first of all, you're not going to buy the real estate I'm buying, okay? Everybody that watches this show is not combined. [00:12:26] Speaker 1: I'm not arguing with you about the real estate. [00:12:28] Speaker 2: I will concede you're an expert at real estate. I'm talking about the Bitcoin. Good. So 80% of the people that were onboarding into this platform own no Bitcoin and don't want any. Well, then why are they going on to it? Because they don't want any Bitcoin. [00:12:44] Speaker 3: Yeah, just a great answer. Yeah, go ahead. All right. Okay. [00:12:49] Speaker 2: Some of the biggest checks I've gotten, I've raised $2 billion. I don't know how much money you've raised in your career. I've raised $2 billion without an ad or a middleman. [00:12:57] Speaker 1: Well, I've raised more than $2 billion, but not for one particular thing. Without doing a TV ad, okay? [00:13:04] Speaker 2: I don't run any TV ads either, but go ahead. Okay. The highest net worth individuals that have invested with me are investing in the real estate Bitcoin hybrid. They don't really, they're not interested in the Bitcoin by itself, but they're interested in the combination because they believe the real estate provides stability to the Bitcoin and the Bitcoin provides upside that the real estate might not be able to get. [00:13:29] Speaker 1: But I don't understand why they can't make that combination on their own. Why does it have to be done through you and you take half their profits on their Bitcoin when you do nothing with their Bitcoin but hold it? [00:13:39] Speaker 2: Yeah, but they're getting an 8% preferred on the real estate. But they can get that without the Bitcoin. They can just buy it. No, they can't get an 8% preferred without doing the Bitcoin real estate fund. By the way, let me just say this. They can invest directly into a cash deal only. Like I'm running a cash investment only, no Bitcoin, and I'm running a real estate Bitcoin fund parallel, and I have more money going into the real estate Bitcoin fund than I do into the cash only. And by the way, the cash only pays- Hang on, hang on. You're not listening. You don't ever listen to- I am listening. No, but you don't know the data. The first fund, the cash only, pays an 80-20 with no pref, and the Bitcoin real estate pays a 8% pref and a 50-50. And I have more money going into the 50-50. [00:14:34] Speaker 1: Yeah, look, I have no doubt that in the market with all the hype about Bitcoin that you've been able to promote this thing and you've been able to get money into it. I didn't say it's not a good marketing gimmick. I mean, you're a great marketer. I'm just saying- I'm just saying, look, people do foolish things with their money, right? [00:14:52] Speaker 2: I'm just saying that there is no value. People sat on gold for 20 years and didn't make any money. That was foolish. Foolish gold. [00:15:00] Speaker 1: No, look, my point is that Bitcoin and gold have absolutely nothing to do with one another. And putting Bitcoin in a real estate portfolio, it would be the same thing. I could say, well, I'm going to put Bitcoin into my stock portfolio. Peter, would you put gold in my bond portfolio? [00:15:16] Speaker 3: Peter, would you put gold in a real estate portfolio? [00:15:19] Speaker 1: No, because I would just buy gold. Why would I have to mix my gold? Because you don't understand that I'm creating a new financial product. Grant, you said that you're going to buy more Bitcoin with the cash flow from your real estate. Why not distribute that cash flow to your investors? Because they're going to have to pay taxes on it, even if they don't get it. If you earn an income, the shareholders get taxed, right? [00:15:47] Speaker 2: The first five or six years will be a- [00:15:50] Speaker 1: Because you're offsetting it with depreciation. [00:15:52] Speaker 2: So not only are they buying Bitcoin and the cash flow, but they're getting the depreciation. How many people do you know that get depreciation with their Bitcoin purchase? [00:16:02] Speaker 1: Well, but they're going to get that anyway if they just buy real estate. [00:16:06] Speaker 2: Good. They could keep them separate. But what you're missing, again, is I'm building a hybrid. I'm building a new product that is going to revolutionize real estate the way it reached it in 1965. How is it going to revolutionize real estate? It's happening right now. It assumes Bitcoin what? It's going to go way up. That's right. It does assume that. Yeah, yeah, but it's not. It assumes that real estate is going to continue to do this. Yeah, the only- And it assumes that Bitcoin is going to do that. And you're going to assume that it's not going to do anything. But again, bro, in early 2000, you said gold would be $2,500. And it would take until what? It would take 12 years for that to happen. [00:16:48] Speaker 1: Well, you know, gold went sideways for a long time. Now, Bitcoin's been going sideways for- [00:16:52] Speaker 2: And that's why you look older than me. No insult intended, but- [00:16:56] Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't dye my hair. Okay. But I may be older than you. I'm not sure how old you are, Grant. Peter, every landlord needs money. A few more years of Bitcoin, you're going to start looking a lot grayer. Because, you know, especially after this midterm election and the Republicans are going to get smoked, it's going to be a very hostile environment on Capitol Hill for crypto and Bitcoin. And the main reason that Bitcoin had that big rally was Trump. Everybody knows you got DTS. And no, no, I don't have Trump deranged. It's the people that blindly support Trump. They're the ones that are deranged. I'm rational. I do support him. You know, we got earlier today, I don't know if you saw this, but the University of Michigan came out with their consumer confidence. And the current conditions index is the lowest in the history of the survey that goes back to 1951. So Americans are more concerned now about their finances than they were in the Korean War, the Vietnam War, you know, multiple recessions, the Great Recession, the financial crisis, the dot-com bust, the, you know, COVID. I mean, all the things that have happened in the last 70 years, people are more worried now. So, you know, this is efficient that we've got this economic boom. [00:18:20] Speaker 2: You've been selling fear your entire life. I'm selling reality. You're a doomer, dude. You're a doomer. [00:18:27] Speaker 1: Well, you're just selling greed trying to get people to buy your Bitcoin real estate hybrid. [00:18:32] Speaker 2: I am inspiring people to create wealth for themselves by creating a new financial product. Okay. [00:18:39] Speaker 1: You're hoping to get 50% of the upside in their Bitcoin. I get it. But you know what? Bitcoin is going to go down. So you're not even going to get it. Gentlemen, let's talk about rising. [00:18:47] Speaker 3: I'd like to know what you both think about what to do in a rising interest rate environment. Let's start with Grant first. It impacts real estate directly. How would you allocate your real estate fund differently at, you know, a 7% mortgage versus much lower a year ago or two years ago? [00:19:03] Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, this is a, this is a very, very tough time for real estate guys. Like I can tell you right now, like this is not what a guy like me wants. I mean, there's probably $80 million that have come out of our real estate values in the last three or four weeks, just in a very short period of time because of these rates. We've been, we've been very active buying big institutional quality assets and we will continue to be so because when rates go up, prices go down. Our entry right now, it's very cheap, but it's very scary to buy right now. It's very, it's like your cash flows get squeezed, David, as you know, but our cost basis in the, these assets, I'm buying institutional quality assets in great locations. Our entry level, we believe over the next three to five years, we'll look back and it'll be proven to be a great investment, even though the cash flows will get squeezed. [00:19:59] Speaker 3: Okay. Peter, rising interest rates doesn't, gold doesn't like higher real rates either. So are you doing anything differently? [00:20:07] Speaker 1: Well, first of all, I don't think we have higher real rates. I actually think inflation is rising faster than rates. And I think that's going to continue. I think both nominal rates will continue to rise, but not as much as inflation. So I actually think this is quite bullish for, for gold, even though investors have perceived it as a headwind, it's, it's really a tailwind, but the comment on, on real estate, I'm not exactly sure, you know, the composition of grants portfolios, but I do think that rates are headed a lot higher from here. This is not the top and it's going to create a lot of problems in, in the real estate market and in the overall economy, especially the U S economy, which was really built on, on real estate, because we were in a bull market in bonds for 40 years, right? From, from 1981 to 2021, bond yields fell. The 10 year treasury went from 16% to 60 basis points, massive bull market, 30 year fixed rate mortgage went from 18% to two and five eighths by 2021. So, and what happened during those 40 years is falling mortgage rates helped cause rising real estate prices, right? They're, they're, they work in opposite. And what happened was American homeowners had this gift that kept on giving a lifeline where every few years they refinanced their mortgage, pulled out cash and lowered their future payments at the same time. So it was great. They can pay off their credit card debt. They can remodel their home. They can do whatever they wanted and they had the wealth effect because they kept getting richer as the real estate prices kept rising. We're now in the opposite situation where real estate, where prices, real estate prices are not really rising and they could fall substantially actually. But mortgage rates are going to keep rising. Didn't you say recently they could fall 50% or something? Well, no. What I said was if mortgage rates get to 9%, which I think we could be at by Q1 of next year, in order to get a house to cost the same at a 9% mortgage as a 3% mortgage, the price of the house would have to be cut in half for the monthly payments to be the same. But the other things that are happening, insurance is way up, maintenance is way up, utilities are way up. Everything about home ownership is getting more expensive, but the lifeline has been severed. There's no more cash out refis, no more refis, no more lowering your monthly payments. And we are entering a new reality in America that we've never been in. We started with low interest rates and low debt. That was great. Then we had low interest rates. I mean, low debt and high interest rates. Peter, do you know this? That was manageable. Peter, do you know this? I'm almost finished. We had low debt and high interest rates. Then we moved into a period of high debt and low interest rates. And that was, we could do that. Yeah, we had high debt, but it was cheap so we could afford it. We've now entered the era of high debt and high interest rates. And of course, it's higher debt than we've ever had. And who knows how high these interest rates are going, but they're going a lot higher than the fives and the sixes where, you know, where we are now. Okay, go ahead. [00:23:14] Speaker 2: How high, Peter, how high, Peter, before they can't go higher? Because there is a place where they can't go higher. [00:23:21] Speaker 1: Well, well, there's no, there is no place where they can't go higher. But what happens is there's a place where they go so high that everything collapses. But that in and of itself doesn't reduce the rates. There may be a breaking point where the Fed steps in and says, you know what? We can't let rates go any higher. And then they crank up the printing presses and they start buying all the debt. But then we end up with runaway or hyperinflation. So it's not, you know, so none of it matters. And then, of course, the only debt that stops rising is what the government is buying. So if the government, if the Fed is buying treasuries, then mortgage rates are still going to go up. You know, they have to buy the mortgage-backed securities. They got to buy corporate debt. They got to start because whatever the Fed is in buying is going to keep going up because inflation is going to rise. If inflation is 10% a year or 15% a year, I'm not going to lend money for less than that. [00:24:15] Speaker 2: Yeah. But again, this is the world's coming to an end. I didn't say the world's coming to an end. I just said rates are going a lot higher. I know. But it's always like this with you, dude. And the reality is things always get better in this country. Well, they may get better. [00:24:33] Speaker 1: They're just going to get worse first. Look, I'm optimistic on AI. I think there's a lot to be optimistic about. But we're going to have – there is a price to pay. The chickens come home to roost for all this cheap money. We've been living high on the hog beyond our means. [00:24:49] Speaker 2: How long has that debt clock been threatening you in your lifetime? A long time. Look, I saw this crisis coming from a mile away. Since the beginning of time. Okay. [00:24:58] Speaker 1: Not the beginning of time. I'm not that old. [00:25:00] Speaker 2: I'm not that old. Since debt. Since we've had debt my entire life, there's been a debt clock since about 10 years old. Yeah. Well, I really – It was like we have too much. Excuse me. We have too much. We can't afford anymore. The world's coming to an end. Okay. I never said the world's coming to an end. Half the homes. No, no, no. Half the homes in America. $35 trillion of equity sitting in homes today. Look, the world didn't come to an end. [00:25:26] Speaker 1: We had the 2008 financial crisis. The world didn't come to an end. So bad things can happen without the world coming to an end. There is going to be a debt crisis, a sovereign debt crisis. [00:25:39] Speaker 2: If you would have bought all the foreclosure homes in 2008, 9, and 10, you would be so wealthy today, you wouldn't have had to move to Puerto Rico. [00:25:49] Speaker 1: Well, I'm wealthier because I moved to Puerto Rico. [00:25:54] Speaker 2: But you wouldn't have had to make that choice. You would have been like, no, I just want to buy more real estate. But I love living here. Because if 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12, if you'd have bought real estate when it was plummeting, you'd have been so wealthy. But the difference was, the difference was people- I'm wealthy enough. Excuse me. Well, you don't know what you don't know. Okay. So 50% of all the loans in this country, 50% of all the loans in this country are below 4%. And they have 27 years left on that term. Yeah, think about the losses. Those homes will not be discounted, Peter. Okay, well, let me tell you. Two things. Excuse me, excuse me. Let me just finish, please. What you're going to see is no activity. You're not going to see a home price drop. Okay? You're not going to see a 50% drop in any single family homes in this country. You're going to see small pullbacks. Excuse me. Let me just finish. I'm going to finish. Okay. You're going to see small pullbacks. You're going to see small pullbacks where people have to sell because housing needs that secondary market to move, not the primary or first-time home buyer to move. And half the homes are sitting on a sub-4 interest rate. So nobody's going to trade that for a 6 or a 7. [00:27:07] Speaker 1: Yeah. And you're right. People aren't moving. Which is going to make a lot of renters in this country, by the way. Let me finish what's going to happen. First of all, you're right. A lot of people have, you know, 20 to 30 years left on a fixed rate mortgage where they're paying three and 4%. That means the lenders have huge losses because they're stuck owning this asset, banks, insurance companies. This is, you have an insolvency problem with all the people who own this lousy paper. And I warned about this a long time ago. But yes, the fact that Americans have these low mortgages, they're going to stay in their homes longer. But here's what's going to happen, right? The cost of everything else is going to go up. So people are going to see their utilities go up, their insurance go up, all the other costs of homeownership are going to go up. Now, some people are going to move. Some people are going to die. Some people are going to get divorced. Some people are going to lose their jobs. And some people are going to sell. Now, once a few people sell and now the houses start selling at lower prices, all the houses are now worth those lower prices because it's all worth based on the comps. No, let me finish. Let me finish. That's not how real estate works. It is how real estate works. Now, once the real estate prices go down and now I'm underwater on my mortgage, let's say I owe $500,000 on a $400,000 house. I have negative equity now. Yes, maybe I have a low 4% mortgage. But if I'm struggling to make that payment and I got other bills. [00:28:42] Speaker 2: They've just got a 4% mortgage is underwater on their house. That's ridiculous. [00:28:45] Speaker 1: No, not now. But they could be. They could be very quickly because they know they can't. [00:28:50] Speaker 2: They can't be very quickly. It's impossible. Yes, they can. [00:28:53] Speaker 1: All right. Okay. It is impossible. It is impossible. Real estate prices, Grant, real estate prices were at their highs when mortgage rates were at their lows, pretty much. If real estate prices go down, then people are going to have negative equity. If they're not. There's only six times in the last hundred years where rates were going up and prices went down. One of the times I did make money in real estate. You got to get control of this, man. One of the times I did make money in real estate, other than my Puerto Rican real estate is 5x what I paid for it, by the way. But the time I did make money in real estate was when I shorted the subprime market in 2006. And the people who I tried to convince to short the market with me, the main reason they didn't want to do the trade is they said, you're crazy, Peter. Real estate prices will never go down. It's never happened. It's not going to happen. And it happened exactly the way I said it was going to happen for the precise reasons I said it was going to happen. So real estate prices can go down and they will go down. Okay. And when they do go down, we know what people do when they're underwater on their mortgages. They mail in their keys. [00:30:03] Speaker 3: That is going to happen again. Let's give Grant one minute, one to two minutes. Just explain his position. [00:30:10] Speaker 2: This guy, this guy, this guy, man. First of all, it cannot happen in this environment. This is not 2006. It's 2000. I know it's going to be worse. [00:30:19] Speaker 3: Just let him finish. [00:30:21] Speaker 2: Half the homes in this country are sub four. The mortgage is worth more than the fucking house, man. What's wrong with you? Exactly. Exactly. I told people. [00:30:29] Speaker 1: I told people for years to go out and borrow money and take a 30-year mortgage. Thank you. Your biggest asset was going to be your mortgage. Grant, just respond to that, please. No, I agree 100%. That's why I was encouraging people to take out 30-year fixed-rate mortgages because the bank will actually pay you to repay your mortgages. Let me know when you're going to be finished. It's a liability for the lender. I said people are going to make money on real estate as debtors, not as homeowners. Let me know when you're finished with your negativity. [00:31:00] Speaker 3: Go ahead. Go ahead, Grant. [00:31:01] Speaker 2: Yes. Okay. So, first of all, you got to build a new home. The cost to replace a home today is, and versus building, you cannot, the average home in America is $440,000. In California, they're $1.1 million. You can't build them. Okay? You can't build them because they're over-regulated. I agree. The whole, especially with the tariffs. Excuse me. Hold your dick. Hold yourself. Hold yourself. [00:31:29] Speaker 3: Let Grant finish. I'm agreeing with you. [00:31:32] Speaker 2: Get this guy a counselor. Okay? You have a shortage of homes. You have $35 trillion. You know how much money that is? In equity. Okay? You could destroy half of it, and it's still $17 trillion. You got a baby boomer, you and me, that are moving into retirement, dropping out of the workforce. We're going to pass $120 trillion of equity on to the next generation. A third of that is real estate. A third of that is stocks. And the rest is all over the board. Okay? You act like the world's coming to the end. We're about to move into the greatest revolution, well, the greatest economic expansion since the Industrial Revolution. It's going to be deflationary, not inflationary. Okay? People that have homes and places where people want to live and work will continue to go up in value, they have for the last 100 years, even when rates were going up, only six times in 100 years, when rates were going like this, did prices go down. Only six. Four of those cycles was in the 2008 cycle. We are not in a 2008 cycle because so much of this debt is sitting on 20 plus years, a mortgage below 4%. So a housing crisis is not going to happen. Will it happen in multifamily? Hotels? Yes. It's happening there now. That's where the correction's happening. And I think that that's what you're missing. [00:32:57] Speaker 3: First of all, let me just ask Grant something. Sorry. Why multifamily in particular and not single family? [00:33:03] Speaker 2: Because all that money's sitting on adjustables. It's not, it doesn't have permanent financing. So the hotels, the hotels require a lot of CapEx. The office requires tremendous amounts of CapEx. Okay, all that stuff was sitting on adjustables. So you got to spend the CapEx, then you got to fill the building back up, then you got to give it a purpose. Now, the other thing that Peter's not analyzing here is all the labor, plumbers, roofers, gutter makers are going to push to data centers. They're going to be building data centers. They won't build apartments. They won't build office. They won't build hotel. They won't build single family homes. There'll be a shortage in the next 36 months of multifamily. Rentals will explode in this country because of shortage of housing and all the money is going to flush over to the data centers. All the institutions are chasing data centers now. [00:33:54] Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, first of all, not all of the mortgages are 30-year fixed. There are people that had five-year arms. There are a significant percentage of Americans. [00:34:04] Speaker 2: I said half. [00:34:05] Speaker 1: Yeah. So the half that are going to be exposed to higher rates, a lot of those people aren't going to be able to pay the mortgages. The problem is homes are already the most unaffordable they've ever been. They're less affordable now than they were in 2005, six, seven, before the collapse. And they're getting even less affordable every day as mortgage rates continue to rise. [00:34:29] Speaker 2: Less affordable to who? Less affordable to who? To the average person who's borrowing money to buy a house. So maybe they don't buy a house now. Maybe a home becomes... That's right. Maybe somebody actually has to make a decision now about whether a home is an investment or is it just a consumption item. Right. And I have said for years it is purely a consumption item. I agree with you. [00:34:49] Speaker 1: You're right. It's not... It is a consumption item when you buy residential real estate and live in it. But the point is, if the buyers are not there, the prices have to come down. No, they don't. No, they don't. Well, then no houses will ever sell. You know what? Let me ask Grant. So real estate transactions will go to zero? So all the realtors are out of work? This is something a lot of... There's no more appraisers. There's no more mortgage bankers. So all real estate transactions stop and nobody buys a house. Nobody sells a house. Sorry, let me just jump in in time. [00:35:22] Speaker 2: Let me just jump in real quick. That's pretty much what's happened for the last three years, by the way. [00:35:25] Speaker 1: Yeah, but it can continue. Grant, I'm curious. At some point, houses have to sell and there has to be a buyer. And it's the buyer who's going to determine the price, not the seller. The seller can sit there and hope, here's what I think my house is worth. But it's only worth what somebody can pay. [00:35:42] Speaker 2: That's why I said... That's why I said in markets that are desirable, homes will sell and they will bring premiums. They won't sell if people can't afford to buy them. [00:35:53] Speaker 3: Let me just give you... Grant, so you're aware I'm in Vancouver. It was just rated one of the worst real estate property markets in the world. That in Toronto. I can't remember who, but a few reports have this. Okay, now rates are going up. [00:36:09] Speaker 2: You overbuilt and you're on adjustables. You can't get longer than a three-year loan in Canada. [00:36:15] Speaker 3: Right. So somebody like me thinking about buying a home, I have to ask myself, are you right, Grant? Like, it's a consumable. I don't really need it. I'm renting right now. I'm fine renting. Now, if I want to buy a home, I'm seeing all these prices drop. Some listings go up and $100,000 comes down literally in value two weeks later. It keeps dropping the moment they list. So I'm thinking, you know, now's probably a good time to buy because everything's crashing. But at the same time, rates are going up. So how do I make that decision here? How do I know when enough's enough and it's time to get in? Even if it's a consumable, it's probably a good buy. Yeah. [00:36:49] Speaker 2: Well, I would tell you, it depends on what you're buying. I'd stay away from the condo projects in Vancouver. They overbuilt condos. They come with HOA fees. You'll never own the whole building. You'll never control the building. If you want control, go for mass number of units, 100 plus units, apartment quality, great locations, and raise a fund to pay cash for the asset. We're buying $600 million of real estate from Blackstone right now. We're paying cash. We're paying cash for the entire portfolio. And if the rates, I'll crowdfund the entire $600 for my audience. I'll pay cash. They'll earn 5.5%. That's basically tax-free for the first five or six years. We get a big write-off in year one. We get cash flow. We're buying below replacement costs. And we'll wait for the next three, four, five years until rates get normalized below where they are today. And our rents start to tweak up, and they will because there's not going to be any new building. I think, Peter, you would agree with 9% and 10% or 12% builder's cost interest, all construction stops in America. And it's already stopping here. [00:38:02] Speaker 1: I'm very bearish. I've been saying I'm very bearish on the housing industry, the construction industry. Yeah, this is, you know, but... But Warren Buffett... I would make a key point. Warren Buffett's buying Lenore right now, so... What you don't understand is interest rates are normalizing now by going back up. What we experienced, especially since the 2008 financial crisis, that's not normal. We lived through a period of abnormally low rates. Now we're normalizing. We're still not at a level that I think is, you know, would be a market level given all the debt that we have. So rates are going to normalize much higher. I don't know how high they're going to go. Are mortgage rates going to normalize at 8%, 9%, 10%, 11%? I don't know. We have a lot of debt. There's a lot of inflation. [00:38:50] Speaker 3: Rates should be higher. Peter, let me ask you a question. So 25-year-old has $10,000. He doesn't own anything. I mean, real estate aside, what should he own right now? [00:39:03] Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I don't know. It depends. I mean, is he making an investment? I mean, I tell people to stock up on consumer goods that don't go bad because that gives you a guaranteed 10% probably return a year because that's how much the prices are going to go up. But if you want to start investing, you know, you can get into one of my mutual funds. You know, we have, you know, I like the precious metal sector. We have a gold fund. I think the emerging markets are really cheap. We have an emerging market fund. You know, I think there's a lot of value around the world if you want to invest, you know, where a lot of the money isn't going. You know, all the money right now in the stock market is concentrated in the AI-related stocks and tech stocks. But the majority of stocks are in bear market. So there's value. [00:39:46] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:39:47] Speaker 2: Go ahead. If I'm 25 years old, the last thing I'm doing is putting my money in a mutual fund. 25 years old, take the whole 10 grand, make one bet on one thing that you believe in. If it's not your own business, there'd be nothing wrong with putting all 10 grand on SpaceX or 10 grand on Bitcoin and just let it roll and go get you another 10 grand and do it again. Okay. The wealth is created. Wealth is not created through Dursley. Well, that's gambling. It is created through big bets, making big bets on a few things. Hey, let me just finish, Peter. If you study the wealthiest people on this planet, they make big bets on one or two things, period, end of story. You cannot find anybody on this planet for the last 2,000 years that have ever created wealth in diversification. They maintain wealth there. I don't know. Well, a lot of people have gone bankrupt. [00:40:40] Speaker 1: A lot of people have been bankrupt and by making big bets and concentrated bets because they can bet wrong. [00:40:46] Speaker 2: What's wrong with a 25-year-old going bankrupt? Actually, not that much, I guess. He went from 10 grand to zero. He was bankrupt at 10 grand. Let's keep it real. You're right about that. [00:40:57] Speaker 1: The time to take risks is when you're young. But I like to buy stuff when it's cheap and then you got better risk reward. [00:41:07] Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's how you think, dude. You think about cheap, you should buy great shit and hold it for long periods of time. [00:41:15] Speaker 1: Yeah, but try to find great shit. I mean, SpaceX is pretty expensive. I mean, that's not like you're discovering some unknown thing buying into SpaceX. Okay, fine. Peter, you got to buy SpaceX before it's straight. [00:41:27] Speaker 2: Can I finish the ground floor? Yeah, Greg, go ahead. You didn't get to call on the ground floor, bro. Steve Ballmer was the 16th employee at Microsoft working for Bill Gates. Steve Ballmer's worth more money than Bill Gates today. He's got one investment. Steve Jobs had two investments. Elon Musk has five investments. [00:41:49] Speaker 3: Grant, I saw this yesterday. Let me just follow up, Grant. This is good timing. Somebody posted this. Bill Gates met Warren Buffett. After that, he started diversifying. He's worth a couple hundred billion dollars right now. Yeah. He would have been worth more than a trillion had he stuck with just Microsoft. Exactly. [00:42:09] Speaker 1: But he didn't want the risk. You're talking about the benefit of hindsight. But when you get to a certain amount of wealth, the extra money wouldn't have changed his life. It wouldn't have changed everything. [00:42:24] Speaker 2: The difference between $200 billion and a trillion three is everything. [00:42:28] Speaker 1: Everything? Really? Do you think there's anything Bill Gates can't buy with $200 billion? You think he's like, shit, my life really sucks because I only have $200 billion. [00:42:38] Speaker 2: Yeah. Bill Gates cannot do what Elon's doing right now. There's so much difference between Bill Gates' wealth and Elon's, it's unbelievable. Bill Gates was not at the White House this weekend. All right. Look. Elon was there. [00:42:52] Speaker 1: I don't think I'm shedding any tears for poor Bill Gates. He only has $200 billion. Grant, at what point? In your life. How many women? I don't want to go out with you. You don't have enough money. You're only $200 billion. I get it. [00:43:05] Speaker 3: I get it, Peter. I'm just curious. Actually, both of you, at what point, you've both built a lot of wealth. At what point should you start to diversify? Because to Peter's point, at a certain point, you look at your financial statements. I'm worth $100 billion, you know, should I diversify some of that? I don't know. What's your thought process here? [00:43:22] Speaker 2: I'm not diversified. I have two investments. [00:43:27] Speaker 1: Well, at least you're diversified in your real estate. You don't have it all in one property. [00:43:32] Speaker 2: Well, that's fine. Well, there's diversification. [00:43:36] Speaker 1: Why not just buy one? [00:43:37] Speaker 2: I can't put $6 billion in one location. I mean, I guess I probably could. [00:43:42] Speaker 1: You could buy, like, how much is the biggest building in Manhattan? There's got to be a, you know. [00:43:46] Speaker 2: There's no $6 billion assets. JP Mortgage has built $3 billion asset, but I can't. All right, so buy two of those. The point is, I've created this over 40 years, so I have two investments, David, to answer your question. I mean, I have my businesses that I work on. [00:44:00] Speaker 3: Are they real estate and Bitcoin? Okay, let Grant, I'm curious to see. I'll ask you the same thing, Peter. Just a sec. [00:44:06] Speaker 2: My primary investment is me and my business. Overlay money, extra money has gone into real estate and now Bitcoin. Probably 20% of my portfolio is Bitcoin now. 80% is real estate. The rest is me working on my businesses, supporting people, consulting, education, and then raising funds for our real estate portfolio. [00:44:28] Speaker 3: Peter, how much of your money would you put outside of your own investments, let's say? [00:44:34] Speaker 1: Well, I mean, outside of my own investments. [00:44:37] Speaker 3: Well, I'm presuming you have some money in your own funds. [00:44:41] Speaker 1: Well, I do, and I own a lot of the, mostly I own a lot of the same stocks stocks that we own in our funds. So I don't necessarily own the funds, although I have some money in my funds, but I generally just own the stocks outright, which are the same stocks that we buy for clients through our funds and through our separately managed accounts. But I'm, you know, I'm like Grant, you know, my single biggest asset is my own business. And most of my income is generated from my business. I do get income from my investments too, but I still earn more from my business than I do in dividends and, you know, from, from, from my, from my investments. Now that's probably going to change at some point because the investment portfolio keeps growing because I keep putting money into it that I earn from my business. But most of what I own for investment wise is in companies in the stock market. The, the, I don't have a lot of investment properties. I own a few properties. In fact, I just made an offer to buy another one, but these are just for personal enjoyment. Just for me to, to, to live in, uh, I don't really have any rental property. No, I don't consider it. I'm just spending money, but, but, but I'm, I'm buying, I'm buying, uh, properties that I think, you know, they're not going to be worthless one day. I mean, they're going to have value. So I, I, I, you know, it's like I'm, I can buy a work. You're buying. [00:46:02] Speaker 2: Okay. So that, that, that's contrary to what you were saying about all this housing is going to go to shit. [00:46:06] Speaker 1: Well, I'm not buying in America and I'm not buying with a mortgage. I'm buying a foreign, this is foreign property where I think, where I think. [00:46:12] Speaker 2: You should be buying America because America is the best, the best freaking game in town. [00:46:18] Speaker 1: Well, we'll see. I get maybe AI could be a game changer. [00:46:21] Speaker 2: Until we take over Cuba, then that'll be an explosion. And we will, by the way, Trump will take over Cuba before the end of the year. [00:46:29] Speaker 1: Well, you know, it'd be nice to go to Havana for vacation. I'm here in Puerto Rico. We're not that far away. [00:46:34] Speaker 2: We agree on something. We can revitalize. We can get Venezuela going so I can go to Caracas. It'll kill Puerto Rico's economy, by the way. [00:46:41] Speaker 3: You know what? Let's let's end on this. Okay. It's right before the midterms. Let's what did you say about Puerto Rico? [00:46:46] Speaker 2: It'll kill Puerto Rico. If we take over Cuba, it'll kill the Puerto Rican economy. [00:46:52] Speaker 1: How do you figure? Would that be good for Puerto Rico to have a prosperous Cuba? [00:46:56] Speaker 2: It'll kill everything up to St. Bart's. [00:46:59] Speaker 1: Because everyone's just going to want to go there? Well, it's going to take a while to build it back up. [00:47:09] Speaker 2: I'll give the economy a grade. Grant, last two years. Let's give the economy a grade. Yeah. Well, I would say it's a B, B plus, and it's going to an A plus. It's going to go to a place where we can't grade it. It's going to go to so good for the opportunists. Like, if you look at the cost of living in this country, interest rates are very inflationary, by the way. Those are inflationary. Cost of food has gone up gradually. It's coming down since Trump. It's not come down since Trump. Food is more expensive now than when it was elected. I'll let you. I'll let you. Let me just hear some answers. There goes the Trump disarrangement syndrome. No, I'm not. You're deranged if you think food is cheaper. No, it's coming down since Trump. Okay. But the opportunity. That would mean it's lower. Opportunity. Opportunity in this country is going straight up and vertical. Okay. I would rather higher cost of utilities, food, everything, as long as I have opportunity. And the opportunities in this country are unbelievable, like, historical proportions of opportunities for people without education, people in high school, colleges, coming out. Like, if you're a hustler today in America, you have opportunities. We'll create a half a million, a half a million new millionaires this year. Half of those are not even educated because of the number of opportunities. You've got 10-year-olds now using AI to build games that have never – that companies have done billions of dollars in revenue with. [00:48:44] Speaker 1: Peter, I'm at the economy, please. Well, first of all, I agree that there is a lot of things to look forward to with AI. And that's got nothing to do with Trump. I mean, that just developed. I mean, he's embracing it now, of course, but that's the market. That's not what Trump did in the two years he's been president. They were developing AI long before, you know, Trump won. But, yeah, it's become more obvious now as the models have gotten better and we're all starting to utilize them. But the overall economy is nothing like what you've described. I mean, if there was more opportunity than ever, if things were as great as you say, then the public would be more optimistic. The Republicans would not about to get clobbered in the midterms. I mean, the Republicans would be getting credit for the great economy. Instead, they're getting blamed for the lousy economy because it is not a good economy. And we've taken on a lot more debt over the last couple of years. We've increased the size of government. The government is spending more. It's borrowing more. We're printing more. And so, no, we haven't made any progress outside of, you know, the innovations that are going on. [00:49:57] Speaker 2: So what's the grade you would give? [00:50:01] Speaker 1: Oh, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I mean, it's pretty low. I'm a tough grader. I probably flunk it. Yeah, because you're negative, dude. I don't think it. No, it's not because I'm negative. [00:50:12] Speaker 2: Peter, do you consider yourself an optimist or a pessimist? But do you consider yourself lifetime? Like over your lifetime, do you skew toward a pessimism or optimism? [00:50:23] Speaker 1: It depends on what you're looking at, because I'm optimistic on some things and pessimistic on others. But I have been pessimistic on the economic situation because of what I've seen developing over time. And I've been right, because the problems that I was worried about are all bigger now than when I first started worrying about them. And I haven't stopped worrying about them just because they've gotten bigger and just because we've been able to kick the can down the road, because I know that eventually we're going to catch up to that can and we're going to have an even worse crisis. [00:50:53] Speaker 2: Who do you think does better over a lifetime, over a hundred years, the optimist or the pessimist? [00:51:03] Speaker 1: Well, probably the optimist. Because the pessimist probably never do anything. And I've done a lot of things. I mean, I'm not just, you know, I've started a successful business. I've done well for myself. So I'm not just buried in a hole somewhere being a pessimist. [00:51:17] Speaker 2: You saw Bitcoin at a hundred and passed on it. I passed on it lower than a hundred. Yeah, that way I blew that one. That's for sure. You think that that's. So what do you give your report card for passing on a hundred that's trading at eighty thousand a day? [00:51:30] Speaker 1: Well, that obviously that's enough. I should have bought it. All right. With the benefit of hindsight, obviously. But, you know, look, I didn't gamble on Bitcoin. Yes, I should have. I should have bet on Bitcoin and I would have won. Obviously. Clip it, David. Clip it. Yeah. But I said, yeah, you know, you could you could find who won a horse race and say, yeah, I should have bet that horse. Now that I know who won. Yeah, I should have bet it. But yes, I was in a position to make billions of dollars. [00:51:55] Speaker 2: Instead, what you did was you puked on the new innovation, the technology. You puked on it and you continue to puke on it 15 years later, even though it's freaking delivered the goodies. [00:52:06] Speaker 1: No, it hasn't delivered. It's delivered profits for the people who bought it early, but it's never delivered on the promise that it made. It's not money. It hasn't replaced the dollar. It's not used as a medium of exchange. It is just a digital pyramid scheme. More people have lost money in Bitcoin than me. [00:52:28] Speaker 2: Over the last 15 years. How's it done compared to gold? Well, how's it done over the last five or six years? [00:52:35] Speaker 1: Lousy. Because that's all that counts. Let's do 15 years. But nobody owned it 15 years ago, except a handful of my neighbors. I did. [00:52:44] Speaker 2: Well, all right. Well, you know. So why don't you answer your question? Okay. So since 2013, how's it done? It's done better than everything. Why single out gold? It's done better than everything. [00:52:55] Speaker 1: Stocks, real estate. Okay, Grant. What are you showing me, David? [00:52:59] Speaker 2: What am I looking at? This is a poll. [00:53:00] Speaker 1: Why do you own any real estate then? Just buy Bitcoin. Because Bitcoin has done better than real estate for 15 years. So just put it all in Bitcoin. [00:53:10] Speaker 2: Because I've been buying real estate for 40 years. It's a business that I build. Well, stop. Just buy Bitcoin. So much better. Now what I'm doing is I'm doing both. [00:53:18] Speaker 3: All right. Let's end on this. Why waste your time with real estate? Just buy Bitcoin. This goes back to the original question of how to protect. I mean, I wouldn't say you're a pessimist. I mean, Peter, you're optimistic on protecting your wealth. So how do you protect your wealth? [00:53:30] Speaker 2: I would say he's definitely a fucking pessimist. All right. He's one of the most negative human beings I've ever listened to. [00:53:36] Speaker 3: Okay. Anyway, Grant Cardone ran this poll. You have $100,000. You have to invest in it. This was back in October, 2025. Gold, Bitcoin, or real estate. 23,000 people voted on your X. The result was Bitcoin. Peter Schiff then rift on that. Well, quoted that and said, look, Grant Cardone ran this poll. You did the same poll. Bitcoin was the leader on your poll. Again, this was 34,000 people. So you ran this poll in December 2025. [00:54:06] Speaker 2: So how close were they, Peter? What were the polls? I couldn't hear you. I think more people voted Bitcoin on your poll than my poll. Of course. [00:54:16] Speaker 3: That is true. So in December 2025, Peter said, Bitcoin or Grant Cardone ran this poll. You are given $100,000. All the conditions of the gift is you must invest in either all of it in Bitcoin, gold, or silver. It must hold until December 2028. Which are you buying? 64% of people on your poll, Peter, voted Bitcoin. My question is, both of you, do you think people would still have the same vote today? [00:54:43] Speaker 2: Peter, you had more votes than me, too, by the way, Peter. You had more votes on yours. [00:54:45] Speaker 1: Yeah, well, how many people follow you on X? A million, too. A million, too? Yes. I mean, I'm a million seven and change. But what I have, I am the most popular Bitcoin bear. And so all the Bitcoiners always want to vote in my polls. They troll my feed. And so whenever I say something about Bitcoin, I know I'm going to get lots of people engaging with my post. So they make a point that they're going to overwhelm it and to get the result to show. You see, I mean, they act like they don't even know that I realize this. I know whenever I do a poll, what's better, gold or Bitcoin? I know Bitcoin is going to win. I know that because all the Bitcoiners are going to make sure that every other Bitcoiner goes to my poll and votes. I know this is going to happen. I expect it to happen. That's why I do it. Yeah. [00:55:38] Speaker 2: David, can we get just as we close out here, can we get can we get an opinion from Peter if we could get him to say anything positive? Going forward the next two or three years to business owners out there, there's 32 million small businesses in America, probably another couple million in Canada. Is this a good time to be in business, a good time to start a business, a good time to grow a business? I think it's the best time in my lifetime to start and grow a business. [00:56:05] Speaker 1: I guess that would depend on on the business. But, yeah, I mean, look, I think that the best thing that you could do is own your own business. Because if you're an employee, you're just a cost. And there's always a limit to what you can make because the owner of the business always wants to minimize his costs. But if you start your own business, the sky's the limit. You know, but, yeah, obviously, there's a lot more risk there because there's no guarantee. There's no paycheck. But, you know, building your own business is the best way to achieve wealth and to enjoy your life. So I think that if you can think of a business and there's something that you're good at and there's something that you enjoy doing it, you should start it. But obviously, you know, depending on the type of business, you might want to look at where you are in an economic cycle because some businesses are likely to do better than others. And I do think that artificial intelligence is going to change a lot of businesses. And some businesses will no longer be viable in a world of AI. [00:57:05] Speaker 2: Peter, let me ask you one more question, Peter. Okay. You got a million dollars. You have to make a decision in five seconds. The goal is to 10x the million dollars in five years. If you don't 10x it, you got to give the money back. Do you put it in Bitcoin? I don't know. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Do you put it in Bitcoin or you put it in gold? [00:57:27] Speaker 1: Well, I don't know that either one will 10x, but I'd rather put it in gold. No, no, no. [00:57:33] Speaker 2: But you understand, which one do you think has a better chance to 10x in five years? [00:57:39] Speaker 1: Gold. Even though I don't think it will. But I don't think Bitcoin will either. But I think that, you know, I think that gold has a better chance. I mean, I just don't think Bitcoin is going to do it. I think Bitcoin is going to get clobbered. [00:57:56] Speaker 2: You got a chance to, you got a 2x in three years. Which one 2x is in three years? [00:58:02] Speaker 1: There I'll take gold. That's got a much better chance. Okay. Would you like to put a small wager on this? Yeah, I knew you're going to want to bet me. What do you want? Well, talk to me after the show. I already got so many Bitcoin bets. [00:58:15] Speaker 3: I'll have you guys back on in five years and see which one's closer. I got one final question. Hey, Grant. Well, one final question for both of you. Grant, you said, now's a good time to start a business. I'm a small business owner. I've got a lot of cash saved up. You know, my family wants me to go buy a home because that's what people do. Right. And on the same, I know real estate is not going to 10x in Vancouver in the next five years. I want to 10x my wealth. But at the same time, it's risky. So walk me through this. Right. Because that's something that me and some other people like me are probably thinking about right now in 2026. [00:58:47] Speaker 2: Yeah, I would do what I told you earlier. I would put together a fund with your friends and I would go buy. You're in one of the greatest cities on planet Earth, like literally top 10. I would go and buy a rental property, 32 units and bigger or bigger, great location. I would not worry about price as much as I'd worry about location. I'd borrow the money with your team and then wait for financing to get affordable and reasonable again. It will get down in the fours and fives again and then put long-term financing on it and have a rental property. I'd rent where you live and I'd own something you could rent to others and create cash flow. [00:59:25] Speaker 1: Why would interest rates go back down that low? What would happen to cause that? [00:59:30] Speaker 2: We'll have another COVID event. Another pandemic? Well, you know, the next time we have a pandemic, rates might go up. No, they won't. They won't. They'll print again. [00:59:42] Speaker 1: They're going to print again. But yeah, but here, how do I, how do I cause, but that might cause rates to rise because that's inflationary. [00:59:50] Speaker 3: All right. Small business owner, Peter. All right. We've got to either invest in something else, invest in my business, buy real estate. What's the thought process here? Same question. [01:00:00] Speaker 1: As an investment right now, again, I don't think real estate is a particularly compelling investment because I think rates are going to keep rising. So I don't, I wouldn't buy it as, as, as an investment. As I said, you know, starting a business is fine. But, you know, I think you have to be cognizant of, of what's going on and what type of business is likely to do, to do well. But other investments, look, I, you know, I'm, I'm buying businesses through the stock market all around the world. I have, I have money invested in businesses, including in the U S I own, I own a lot of resource investments. More, I mean, I own tech investments too. I mean, I have, I have some exposure. I have, you know, tech companies. I'm, I'm a major investor in a private semiconductor company. It's one of a big position I have. And hopefully this thing turns into a multi-billion dollar company. But, you know, I, I, I, I have money spread around the world through ownership of businesses that are public and private, you know, mostly publicly traded, but quite a few privately traded businesses. And some specifically, you know, in, in, in AI, uh, related businesses. Um, yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm diversified as much as you think that's, that, that, that's a mistake. And I think at my age, it makes, it makes a lot more sense. Uh, because I don't, the last thing I want to do is get wiped out. Um, you know, I, I, I'm, I'm, I don't want to start, I don't want to start from scratch at 63. [01:01:21] Speaker 2: When I reach your age, Peter, I hope I look as good as you. [01:01:24] Speaker 3: All right. Well, thank you both. You both look great. Uh, appreciate the jacket. Appreciate you coming on. Appreciate your time. We'll put the links down below. You can follow Grant and his ventures there. You can follow Peter and, uh, and his show and, uh, uh, and, uh, his funds as well. Thank you both gentlemen. I really appreciate your time. Thanks to my favorites. [01:01:42] Speaker 2: Peter, good to see you. [01:01:43] Speaker 3: Take care.