Peter Obi Speaks in Berlin: Nigeria’s Future Takes Centre Stage at ECFR Roundtable

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: He was a presidential candidate in the last elections in Nigeria, won over 6 million votes. I had the privilege of being an election observer in that election, so I saw the process, although I was stationed right up in the far north in Sokutoy. So today's meeting is really about having a sense of what PETA's vision is for Nigeria, its future, talking about the key issues that we really are interested in for such an important country, the priorities of economic reform, job creation, security, and then the importance also of regional security, trade and integration. I convinced PETA that coming to Berlin was something that really should be a priority. Germany is such an important partner of Nigeria, and there are always so many questions when I'm here in Berlin to ECFR, but also other policy institutes and think tanks about Nigeria. So better to have PETA here himself talking about these things than people like myself interpreting. And I mean, my previous job, I've been in ECFR for coming up near to a year, I was Africa director at Chatham House, so in the run-up to the 2023 election, I did have the privilege of chairing three of the presidential candidates at the time. And Tunubu, Peter Obi, and Senator Konkwazo Atiku decided that he didn't want to join the conversation at that particular time. But I think now that election fever is already evident in Nigeria, this is a good moment to have a conversation in a roundtable format with Peter. I guess, would you like to know who's in the room with you, Peter, before you get going? Should we go around the table? Maybe we'll do that. [00:02:01] Peter Obi: Yeah, starting from me. [00:02:02] Speaker 1: Okay, you go ahead and introduce yourself more robustly than I am. [00:02:07] Peter Obi: My name is Mr. Peter Obi, a Nigerian politician. Maybe because I'm looking for a job, I'll be sharing my CV with all of you. Because I think I'm the only applicant here. Every other person, I've got a job. I'm the only person looking for a job here. But thank you. I'm sincerely grateful to be here and meeting all of you. Thank you very much. [00:02:31] Speaker 3: And I'm very curious to hear about your visions also with regards to sustainability and sustainable development in your country. [00:02:40] Speaker 1: How many Nigerian guests did you have this year? [00:02:43] Speaker 3: Three. Oh, you caught me off guard. [00:02:45] Speaker 1: Not too many, I'm afraid. Oh, so next year we need to remedy that. [00:02:49] Henry Bonet: Yes. Okay. I'm Henry Bonet. I represent the Konrad Adenauer Stiftung. We have an office in Abuja. And we are linked to the governing party of the CDU here in Germany. I'm very happy to hear. [00:03:03] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:03:04] Lilina Hoon: Good afternoon. My name is Lilina Hoon. I'm the Deputy Federal Chancellor. And I'm covering sub-Saharan Africa. Thank you. [00:03:11] Speaker 6: In the region, I was here in 1992 for the first time. [00:03:17] Speaker ?: Wow. [00:03:18] Speaker 1: Thank you very much. [00:03:25] Peter Obi: Quite frankly, it's a long speech people don't like to hear because it's very boring. [00:03:35] Speaker 1: Okay. [00:03:35] Peter Obi: You know, but just to tell you this, I've never been a politician, never voted when I decided to go and run for governor of my state. I was actually convinced to be involved in politics. When I was in the private sector, I was going from different schools, as you will see from my CV, in 2001, I was doing a course in Kellogg in the US. And the dean of the school took us on a course called the global economy. But he never mentioned anything about Africa, which was surprising to me. And I've spent 90 days listening to him. And he didn't say anything about my continent. And we entered into, why didn't he say this? And he talked to me and said, can I ask you for a favor? And I said, we've been listening to you, Peter. Can you go and participate in building public wealth? Public wealth enriches everybody. Individual wealth enriches everybody. You have the compassion to serve the public. I know it is easy for you because you're doing well. You're chairman of a bank, you're young man. But you should go and participate in building public wealth. It's very important for your nation. The rest is history. That's how I go back a lot of things. It's in YouTube, it's everywhere. So that's how I got involved in politics. And initially when I got involved in it, as you know, it was very difficult for me because transiting from being a social person in the private sector, suddenly into the public sector was not easy. I found myself quarreling, dragging with everybody and all that. But the more I said in it, the more I know there's need to do more. Because if you follow what is happening in my country today and various countries in Africa, you could see a continent and a country of immense potential underground. [00:06:04] Speaker ?: Nigeria has all that. [00:06:05] Peter Obi: Nigeria has all that. Nigeria has all it takes to be a good country, everything, natural resources, human resources, everything. The only thing Nigeria is lacking today is leadership. We have the right leaders and they do the right things. It's easy to turn around the country, and I'm sure you'll see it when we discuss the potential of the country and what's happening there if there hasn't happened. So that's basically why I'm in politics and I'm saying that. [00:06:44] Speaker 1: Yeah, so why is there a challenge of leadership in Nigeria in the way that you're framing this? Why the deficit in this way? [00:06:54] Peter Obi: Well, if you have followed me, you will see that every day I talk about this, that for us to move forward, you need to dismantle what I can describe as an organized camp where people just think you can save public money, behave any way you like and everything. The challenge starts when the people, the people are not just one person or the other, it's a situation where the leadership, as it is today, overall, I'm not talking about one person, you might have one or two people who mean well, but overall, it is an incompetent leadership that lacks the capacity, the compassion, the character and commitment to do the right thing. And that needs to change, and it's gone over the years, it's not easy to change them out, it's not easy to understand because you could see the problem of the country. You could see the country, you could see the country, you could see the country, and nobody is asking the reason why. If you look at, let me, I won't go back to the history, but if you look at today, if you read the news in Nigeria today, you won't see anybody talking about the poverty. You won't hear anybody talking about the issue of school children. You won't hear anybody, so what are we discussing? This is an election year. You know, the issues that are bothering the country is all being discussed. So you could see a situation where, for example, the IMF came and say there was 8 trillion out of budget expenditure. And you say, what is happening? Rather than that being the news, it's not the news. You know, everything is the news, but now, the world food organization says that the 5 million Nigerians are going to be hungry this year. It's not new, so they've managed to turn around where issues that are supposed to be at the forefront, at the background, because of the same relationship problem and all that. I was just telling her, he asked me a question. He said, are there issues that you think this government has done? Are there decisions they've taken that is right and everything? And I said, yes, but those decisions, we are not backed by the same. We are not backed by what you can say, the process that will make them beneficial to the people. And that will come out as we discussed. [00:09:51] Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm planning to kind of interrogate you a little bit, invite. Feel free. Feel free. Inviting people to join. [00:09:59] Peter Obi: Yes, everybody feel free. It's good because we want to know more. [00:10:02] Speaker 1: That's also why we made this 90 minutes and 60, so that we have, you know. [00:10:07] Peter Obi: I remember, like I did in Chatham House. No, Chatham House was-- I said, everybody is free to ask me any question. Yeah, yeah. [00:10:14] Speaker 1: At Chatham House, there it was strict 60 minutes for each candidate. That's it. [00:10:20] Peter Obi: Thank you. [00:10:21] Speaker 1: We're more free here for a discussion. Thank you very much. So, Peter, I wanted to just go kind of think through the last election, 2023. Yeah. Yeah. So, what did you learn from that election yourself? And what, you know, and how are you now going to respond with this election? It's an election. [00:10:44] Peter Obi: I don't like discussing because, you know, I won that election. And it was rigged. But that's not a problem. [00:10:50] Speaker 1: So, maybe talk us through on how, you know, how can the next election, in your view, be a-- how can you break through? [00:10:59] Peter Obi: It is my belief that the next election is between the Nigerian people and the government in office. People here might not understand, but I can tell you. Yeah, tell us. The next election is going to be between Nigerian people and people in office because the Nigerian public probably has had enough. And yet I determined that things have to change. And that will come out when we campaign because we've sacrificed everything, you know, and it's not working. And it is time to understand this one thing is leadership. [00:11:45] Speaker 1: Okay. In the last election, in Northeast and Northwest, the Labor Party had difficulty breaking through. And I have to say, Peter, myself, it wasn't just a-- you know, the election in, say, Socrata State was not stolen. [00:12:02] Peter Obi: No, no. I agree with you. I've been saying-- [00:12:05] Speaker 1: So how do you break into those votes also? Don't worry. [00:12:08] Peter Obi: You see the changes now. [00:12:10] Speaker 1: Okay. [00:12:11] Peter Obi: You see what will happen. So I'll show you-- Explain to those that don't follow Nigerian politics. It's quite surprising. So that comes from the North and had a particular following. [00:12:16] Speaker 1: And so one of the weaknesses of the Labor Party in 2023 was it didn't carry the far North in the same way. Yeah. So you're hopeful now with-- I remember we're just starting then. Yeah. We're just starting to preach what we're preaching now and everything. And where do other politicians like Mr. Atiku sit into all of this now, in your view? [00:12:35] Peter Obi: Well, when the people decide, they will say-- they will be the ones to say what is happening. [00:12:50] Speaker 1: But I believe that they have learned their lessons and everything and will find a way. [00:13:08] Peter Obi: For me, the desperation is to see Nigeria work. It's not about-- I'm not-- I always say I'm not desperate to be president. I'm desperate to see Nigeria work. I want to create a society where the children of Nigeria will have a hope and have a country. Where a child of nobody can be anybody without anything. So for me, it is important. And we must make it work because they've had enough. We're going to accept it. [00:13:40] Henry Bonet: Yeah, go ahead. Anyone who wants to-- Okay. Thank you very much for being so open, Mr. Obi. I wanted to ask, what makes you better prepared for the next elections? We've seen a couple of elections in Africa which are quite worrying from our point of view from Germany, where we see Uganda, Tanzania, Cote d'Ivoire, which have been rigged, manipulated, suppressed, what makes you more sure about how to prepare for the next election, that it's fair, and that the one who gets the most votes wins? [00:14:12] Peter Obi: We're getting people involved. That's what we're trying to do, to mobilize the people. [00:14:17] Henry Bonet: What's the one issue that mobilizes those young people you were talking about? [00:14:21] Peter Obi: To ensure, tell them that this is about their future. It is not about the future of anybody, it's about their future. We want to give them a better future because they have a right to a better future. That's what we're doing. That's what I'm doing every year. [00:14:37] Speaker ?: Empowering these. [00:14:38] Peter Obi: Yes, telling them is about their future. You cannot allow this process to continue. It's a great country that can be turned around, a country that has the resources to be a better country. And again, if Nigeria is doing well today, it is not only beneficial to Nigeria, it's beneficial to Europe. You are the closest people to us. If Nigeria today is booming, there's businesses. There was a German companies who do more business in Nigeria. And there's something in that relationship. It's important. Thank you. [00:15:19] Speaker 1: Thank you. Let me just follow up and then I know you've got a bit shallow. The electoral machinery. I mean, there was a lot of discussion about INEC. And, you know, the professor, you know, who's now, I think, become a Nigerian ambassador as a new INEC chair. You know, what do you draw from that experience in 2023? And what are you hoping for the role of INEC in the lecture coming up? [00:15:46] Peter Obi: Alex, whatever role they play, the people can decide otherwise. If the people decide that they won't, they won't have it. They won't do the wrong thing. They will not do the wrong thing. It's about people. I've seen systems change from the time I became governor to today. I've seen the people say, we can have this. You know, and that's it. [00:16:11] Speaker 1: And the new chair of INEC? Do you have an opinion about him? [00:16:15] Peter Obi: No, I have not met him. You haven't met him yet? For me, it's the referee. You can decide that the referee will do the right thing and he will do the right thing. I've seen it happen over and over again. And I'll show you what happened. [00:16:29] Speaker 1: I mean, there have been INEC chairs that have been impressive. I mean, Professor Jagger, for example, no? [00:16:36] Peter Obi: Because the people decided then that it has to be. And the people will decide this time again. [00:16:42] Speaker 1: Yeah. Please, if anyone wants to go and get coffee and stuff, do also. This is a very free meeting. Shall I please go ahead? Okay. [00:16:51] Speaker 7: Thank you. Okay. I think mine is pretty much a follow-up to you, so maybe shall I can just tell you? I have a minute. Okay. The last election, some of the major concerns was the coverage of the 774 local government areas by the pulling agents for the Labour Party. And pulling up, you know, with the question that had been asked earlier, what would be done differently to ensure that that process where -- That process will be different now. [00:17:20] Peter Obi: It will be different this time. [00:17:22] Speaker 7: Yes. I would like to know in details if you can share. No, no, no. [00:17:26] Peter Obi: Yes. So this is an internal reflection. [00:17:28] Speaker ?: It will be different now. [00:17:29] Peter Obi: We'll make sure it's covered. No. [00:17:31] Speaker 1: No. [00:17:32] Peter Obi: What he said is that's what he said. You said the pulling agents. We'll make sure the pulling agents. You know. And you've made quite heavy allegations about probable attempts on your life, if I understand. Could you elaborate on that? [00:17:39] Speaker 8: Well, it didn't -- when people say elaborate on that, you know, when they have tried to go to three -- two or three states, and the governors, they say, "Don't come here." What else do you do? Do I need to tell you about the times of my life? Are you aware of that? No, I understand. [00:17:49] Peter Obi: You know that way that I wanted to go to Benue, and the governor said, "You can't come." You know that way the governor said, "I shouldn't come today." And when I went there, there was a shootout. And I saw. What again do you have to say? If somebody says, "Don't come to Berlin," and you come to Berlin, and they say, "No, I'm not going to go to Berlin." And they say, "No, I'm not going to go to Berlin." And they say, "No, I'm not going to go to Berlin." And they say, "No, I'm not going to go to Berlin." And they say, "No, I'm not going to go to Berlin." And they say, "No, I'm not going to go to Berlin." And they say, "No, I'm not going to go to Berlin." And they say, "No, I'm not going to go to Berlin." And they say, "No, I'm not going to go to Berlin." And they say, "No, I'm going to go to Berlin." the governor said I shouldn't come to India and when I went there there was a shootout. So what again do you have to say? If somebody says don't come to Berlin and you come to Berlin and they say what else do you need? Do you need the do you need when somebody dies to prove that there's already a shooter going to visit their place? So you see when people make genuine voice as genuine concern it is done from credible verifiable process. In a country where I'm supposed to be moving around freely and I say I'm going to this state and the governor say don't come because we will not guarantee your safety. If you were me what would you say? It's not the general life. The governor said I cannot guarantee your safety. You're in Germany and maybe you live in Frankfurt and you want to go to Berlin and is he mayor? The mayor of Berlin said don't come I will not guarantee your safety. What else do you need you need to you need the God to come and know you're not saved? And the system didn't say to him no you can't say that. And I went to another state where the government said don't come and I went there and there was a [00:19:47] Speaker 1: shootout. So what else? And the shootout was was between who? Your people and and... [00:19:54] Peter Obi: No, I wish my people. I went to a garden and I said I should leave immediately and by the time I left some people came there and attacked them. So in a dome. So if you don't know, so what else do I need? [00:20:08] Speaker 8: And also in terms of the registration of your party, so it feels like every time you move to another party there's an issue and I believe that at the moment NDC is officially deregistered. Are you actually... [00:20:19] Peter Obi: No, we're in court. We're in court. Nobody knows where it's going to end. [00:20:23] Speaker 8: Do you think you actually will stand in elections next year? [00:20:27] Peter Obi: Yes, I do. I think I will. Yes, I will. But I don't know what the other people are planning. I wish I know. If I knew, I would have told you. You know? [00:20:40] Speaker 7: Do you have confidence in the judiciary? [00:20:42] Peter Obi: Well, you know, when people talk about judiciary in Nigeria or talk about other hands, all those things are as good as the leader. I have been a beneficiary of the judiciary. No other person. I was the first Nigerian to become a governor through the court because I challenged my governorship election. I came back from impeachment. Remember? Send judiciary. And I didn't know anybody. And I got an interpretation of my tenure from judiciary. And I won a lot of landmark cases from the same judiciary. The judiciary is as good as the leader. If you have leadership that believes in doing the right thing, the judiciary is good. [00:21:37] Speaker 8: So I actually have a bit of an abstract question because you focus so much on leadership. But as Nigerian, I would also put it to you that we also have a problem, an orientation problem, even right from the grassroot. And I don't hear you necessarily speaking about how we can tackle that. But of course, this is for when, you know, after the elections, like if you do win. The question is, how do you like, we have such a big problem in terms of orientation. We're talking about tribalism in our country. We're talking about, you know, the issue of finances, the fact that people don't even give dignity to labor. There's so many issues. [00:22:14] Peter Obi: If you follow me, you see that this is the things you need to tackle. She asked me a question now. He said, what will be your priority when you win? And I said, one, unity. You need to unite the country. Today we're divided along tribal and religious lines. You must dismantle that. That is only there because the elites who can offer anything that have no means of competition, brings it in as their qualification for competition. That is good for leadership. So you need to dismantle it. Because today no tribe buys bread cheaper. And no religion buys bread cheaper. Everybody is suffering. So you need to dismantle the issue of religion, the issue of tribe. You need that unity. You need to focus and deal with the issue of insecurity. Insecurity is affecting everybody. And you need to deal with it as quickly as quickly as possible. You need to move the country. That's where you're talking about issue of orientation. You need to move the country from consumption to production. You need to invest in critical areas of development. Everybody knows that the more educated you are, the more developed you are. So you need to invest in education. It's critical. You need to invest in health. You need to invest in pulling people out of poverty. And when you talk about pulling people out of poverty globally in any developing country, you talk about how to support micro, small, medium businesses. And that is where it is. If you look at my last week, what I'll do, I cited German example of skill and everything is there. I'll show it to you now and to read. So it's a critical thing. So I mean, this is not happening. And because it's not happening. So it is leader that changes the society. Nothing else. Anybody would say that China was done by it. No, there's no magic. It's leadership. Especially in a developing country. [00:24:42] Speaker 1: I'm going to move on to economics in a minute, but just hold this SME thing. I just want to tickle you a little bit more on a couple of things. One is, you had the question about the effectiveness of the courts. So I just want to get your reflection on when you appealed the results last time in the process. And did you achieve anything through that? And if you didn't, you know, what were the issues there? [00:25:10] Peter Obi: So that's one. There's no need to worry about the court. The court, the court before was Peter versus Trinibou. Now it will be the people versus government. When the people come to court, the court will sit up. And I can tell you, I'll drive the people to the court. The court will change. [00:25:33] Speaker 1: The second one is that there was a lot of attention, international observers, EU, everybody for presidential election, but a lot less attention on the gubernatorial elections, the ones afterwards. So is there a reflection? Because if you get this, if you get the presidency [00:25:52] Peter Obi: right, he drives your life process. What do you mean? I've served three presidents and I know what the president can do. If you get a presidential right, he serves your life process. That's the truth. [00:26:07] Speaker 1: So you are actually saying that focus on observation of the president. Focus on the election of the [00:26:15] Peter Obi: right president. And the difference will be clear. I served three presidents in Nigeria. I served Jonathan and I know the difference of what is happening today. And what do you think the [00:26:31] Speaker 1: international observation like the EU can do as Nigerians? Well, I must tell you, EU report in the [00:26:38] Peter Obi: last election was very good. It was excellent. They did say the right thing. What they need to do now is to be stronger and insist that the right thing has been done. Like I always say, it's beneficial to them to have the right governments. Things will happen properly. [00:26:56] Henry Bonet: Okay. Can I follow up? Yeah, please. Yeah, please go ahead. Because we also have African organizations to observe and they usually give you each country, you know, okay, a green light and everything as well. So why does it have to be the Europeans who insist… [00:27:12] Peter Obi: Well, we are also talking to the Africans to make sure that they do the right thing because everybody is now being affected. It was worse than everything. Like I did say here, that Africa is a country of a continent of immense potential, you know, which can do contribute a lot. As you know today, Africa is the the second largest continent in the world of over 30 million square kilometers. Africa is the second in population today, about 1.4, 1.5 billion. But Africa has a uniqueness, no other continent. We have the largest number of youthful age, over 1 billion, no other continent. In all today, Africa have almost, you can say they have almost a trillion arable land, out of which 60% is all cultivated. Africa can drive the food process in the whole continent. And I look at Nigeria and said, well, listen, look at Nigeria, talking about, you know, being hungry and nothing and all that. It shouldn't be. It just requires people to do it. But with all this potential, the minerals in Africa, Congo alone have more minerals of over 20 trillion. With all this availability, Africa is still home to the highest number of poor people. The world have 10% of the population, about 800 million people living in extreme poverty, 60% live in sub-Saharan Africa. With Nigeria and Congo leading, it shouldn't be. That's extreme at all. If you talk about people who are living in multidimensional poverty, multidimensional poverty, Africa is living out of school. So this point is not. And as I said, we've gotten to the end of it. We just want to turn it around and be able to contribute, not just for African growth, but for the world growth, ensuring that we supply the world meaningful [00:29:40] Speaker 1: support and all that. Okay. Do you have a question related to this or we move on to economy? Sorry? Security. Security. So let's go for the economics and we'll have plenty of people on security coming up. So, well, go ahead. Security and economics. Yeah, so we'll do a bit about internal growth and then we'll go for a border conversation on security. Please go ahead. Yeah, so you know our federal president was [00:30:12] Speaker 6: in Nigeria in December. The federal president Steinmeier in December. And in his delegation, we have been some entrepreneurs also from the small and medium sector, but they were very reluctant to just go further steps. So how could you try to convince them to come more effectively there? Because, you know, we have the big elephants like Siemens there already engaged, but the small and mediums have a little bit, a little bit reluctant. Come again, you're talking about how do, [00:30:53] Peter Obi: what do I do differently to ensure that small and medium companies are getting more involved? Yeah. Well, you see, that's what I'm saying that you need to know fast, isn't it? When I talk about leadership, I know what leaders can do and everything. I don't know whether I've read this book. I don't know whether you read this book, Growing Apart. It's a book about Nigeria and Indonesia, written by Professor Peter Lewis of the Hawks in America. So I had to go and sit down with Peter and discuss it. When I compare nations, my easy way to compare Nigeria is Indonesia. The reason why I do that is that Nigeria, Indonesia is about 280 million people and is the home to the highest number of Muslims living living in any nation. And Nigeria is about 230. So you could see they have similarity in population. Today, 90% of employment in Indonesia is from small businesses. Even China that you say is the powerhouse. China today has about 800 million people employed. Out of that 800 million, 60%, 480 million are actually employed by micro, small, medium businesses. In urban areas, that population is even more. So you need to understand that the government. For us to move, you need to go with the government. You need to find ways to support micro, small, and medium businesses. It requires government support. [00:33:16] Speaker 6: You know, the question is, for Slovakia, for instance, our expectation is 36 billion euros a year, but Nigeria only from the German SMEs to Slovakia, the small country within Europe, was 36 billion euros. And to Nigeria, only 3.2 billion. So it's huge. [00:33:49] Peter Obi: Well, again, it requires the leadership in Nigeria to be able to work closely more and everything and be able to expand and see how they can get more out of that. The leadership in Nigeria needs to be committed to this critical area of development. [00:34:11] Lilina Hoon: I think if you may, I think part of it is also our job to increase the trust for German businesses to go to Nigeria. And I think we've done that because we have these business days that we're now doing in front of our negotiations with Nigeria. And we had 50 German businesses being there. We signed four MOUs and launched the 300 million export guarantee facilities. So we've increased and tried to portray with Nigeria together that Nigeria is a future market and already is. And I think what I would want to maybe ask is because we would love to increase financial cooperation with Nigeria, and part of the problem is the credit rating. So my question would be, what would you think best steps in Nigeria should take to increase their credit rating to then be able to give better loans to Nigeria if they wanted? First is the rule of law. [00:35:19] Peter Obi: If you can't attract foreign investment or want people to invest in your country when they cannot have a cost to the law, that is what you need. Rule of law, security of life and property. Because if I'm coming to invest in a place, I'm not going to invest there for me to be able to enjoy the profit that have to be alive. So you have to secure the place. People have to be sure that whatever there's contract, it has to be respected. And if it fails, I can go to the court and get a judgment. So it is, again, I keep saying, these are things the system is up for you to build. Countries go around looking for foreign investment. Foreign investors are like bee and honey. If a bee finds honey, they will go there. So you need to have a conducive environment for people to believe in you, to trust, to invest in you. And when people see that if they invest here, things will go right, they will go and invest. There's so many billions of money all over the world looking for where to invest. But you have to prepare yourself ready for investment. And it requires a lot. You need to have a leadership that understands that, that knows that it is the community. They need to come around and communicate. So the president of Nigeria wants Germans to invest in Nigeria. They come here and explain to businesses what they are offering. And if the business is coming, and see that what is saying is what is happening, they will come back. Thank you, Peter. What do you think of the [00:37:22] Speaker 1: economic reforms? You know, the ending of reducing of fuel subsidy, the centralization of forex measures? So what's good in what he's done? And what is bad? And what would you do differently? [00:37:37] Peter Obi: Well, you know, when I was campaigning, I said I would remove subsidy. I maintained it today. The removal of subsidy should have been done in an organized manner. And I explained it to you. The subsidy having a criminalized which is the last part of it, which was 60% of the problem. You would have removed that first. And then gradually, remove the 40% that is remaining. And whatever you're removing, you see, there's nothing wrong in saying you're providing an alternative. So the money we're saving from here you're putting it here. For example, we're told that if we remove subsidy, we reduce borrowing. But this government have borrowed more than all the previous government put together. And where is the resources borrowed? If, for example, I've removed subsidy and people could see improvement in education. If I've removed subsidy, and people can see improvement. So whatever you remove, it's like borrowing. There's nothing wrong in borrowing. Every nation of the world is owing. Every nation of the world is owing. Of course, from Germany here, you know, your debt to GDP is very high and everything. But borrowing must be for investment. So where is the money that is borrowed, gone to? That's not the wrong in that. Same thing is the removal of subsidy. So if I remove subsidy, like I told her, if you remove subsidy, you follow it with physical discipline. And use of the resources you are trying to use effectively. You don't remove subsidy and buy yourself a new plan. That's nonsense. You know, you can't ask people to sacrifice to fast when you're feasting. If people are going to fast, you fast with them. And so there's a simple thing. Have governed the state. And we decide we're going to manage our money very efficiently. And you can go ask what happened in that state. Today, I remain the only Nigerian who had finished as a governor. And the day I left office, I was not owing salary, pension, gratuity, no contractor is being owed. And I left $150 million and $36 billion, which was the equivalent of about $300 million when I left. You must choose. You must choose. You don't have... Your president came to Nigeria. How did he come to Nigeria? Huh? Which plan? [00:41:07] Speaker ?: President. [00:41:09] Lilina Hoon: The government plan. [00:41:11] Peter Obi: The government plan. The government plan. Thank you very much. Some other ones come flying commercial planes. British prime minister came. He came with British Airways. So, I can go on and on. Yeah. It costs more to keep government officials in Nigeria than to keep them in Germany. Daddy was dismantled. [00:41:55] Speaker 1: Do anyone have any more economic questions? Otherwise, we move on to security. Anyone want to talk? [00:42:06] Peter Obi: Issues of... First is to move the country from consumption to production. It starts with agriculture. We have no reason to be a country where you talk about hunger. Because we have vast uncultivated land in the north. You cannot do that. You know, we have vast uncultivated land. In fact, to be honest, we can make more money. I said every day, from agriculture than we make from oil. As a country. Let me give Netherlands, for example. Netherlands exports, which is your neighbor. Let me leave that. Netherlands exports every year. One hundred and twenty billion worth of agricultural products. One hundred twenty billion euros. Which is about three times what we earn from oil. For whatever it is, Netherlands with water is 41,000 square kilometers. Without water, it's 33,000 square kilometers. Our biggest state, Niger state, is 76.3. So it's two and a half times the size of the Netherlands. And they don't... Fatal land. They don't do anything. Okay, the Netherlands is the first world. You can say it's the developed world. But Bangladesh produces 10 times the amount of rice. Rice is our number one food. Bangladesh produces 10 times the amount of rice Nigeria can produce. Bangladesh today produces between 50 to 60 million tons of unmealed rice. Nigeria produces about 10% of that. Bangladesh is a highly dense country. The size of Bangladesh today is about 148,000 square kilometers. That is the size of our two biggest states. Niger state at 76.3. And Boronua at 70.8. It's 147 against 148. So what is happening here? Leadership. Period. You must dismantle the criminality and start investing in the right direction. It has nothing to do with anybody. [00:44:42] Lilina Hoon: From my point of view from Berlin, it feels like it's getting worse a bit. Not only in the northeast, but especially in the northwest. Everywhere. With Bandit. We have Laparawa. We have now JNAM and ISSP coming from the Sahel. And I know that Nigeria is trying to sort of launch more relationships with the U.S. Also with Berlin in Nigeria to work on these security issues. But what I was wondering is, what is your stake on the ECOA standby force? How important is that to you? And then also the multinational drug task force, because there's so many of these. And I'm often wondering if then these armfuls are stretched too thin, if we're doing all of these different ones. Or do you think the combined effort could make a difference in long-term security? [00:45:27] Peter Obi: Well, I believe that the issue of security should be tackled aggressively. I have to use whatever is available. The security situation today, it is because it's not been aggressively tackled. I believe that the complicit was somewhere along the line. And I did mention to her that I'm going to bring-- it is better to bring the ECOWAS back to what it used to be. Because you need your neighbors to help you to fight insecurity. It is critical. And you have to have your friends, whether it's Germany, whether it's anybody, to help us to deal with that issue. And as you're doing it, you're also tackling it by natural insecurity, by pulling people out of poverty. The more you pull people out of poverty, the more you do criminality. I have taken time to go to so many prisons to ask young boys who are involved in insecurity, why did you get involved in this? And they tell you they have no job. [00:46:29] Lilina Hoon: Lack of opportunity. [00:46:31] Peter Obi: And you ask them, how much are you paid in the last operation? You'll be shocked. 30 euros. So if they have a job, the more you pull people out of poverty, it's been shown from studies in South America, the more you reduce criminality. So you have to be involved with the leader doing that. And where do you think you have the war situation in Nigeria? Which region? Which state? If you look at all those states, there's one issue on the other. Let me use Boronu, for example. Boronu is the area we have problem there is Sambisa forest. That is the farmland. If you go to Morocco and you go from Casablanca to Port of Tangerine, on both sides is farmland. Sambisa forest, which is a problem for us today, is about 60,000 square kilometers of land. That is about three times the size of Israel. And Israel is the spotting foot. Israel is 22,000 square kilometers. And this is 60,000 square kilometers, so times three is a 66 against this. So we can turn this into a farmland. And there's so many corporations now globally that can help us do that. So these things are not going to be done overnight. Two, why do we have this problem anymore? You have not invested in pulling too many people out of poverty by educating them. So you have 18.17 million out of school children. You have people who you're supposed to invest in their education. Yesterday you didn't do so, so they become a problem for you today. So you now need to start investing aggressively in education, investing aggressively in health. The more people are educated, like I said, the more developed. So it is not just saying, okay, we're going to find these people we've gone. We're going to throw other things there. And that is where your resources, you're not borrowing. We're not saving in subsidy and everything. We're going to. Not that you're borrowing, pulling subsidy, borrowing money for people to steal it. So you must fight corruption head on. Ensure that your resources are invested properly in a critical area that will drive solving those problems, not today, but in the future. [00:49:29] Lilina Hoon: Do you think the state police will make a difference? [00:49:35] Peter Obi: Even community police will make a difference. But that difference will be when you start doing the right things. If people don't know where the next minute will come from, you can't control their behavior. So you must deal with that. So the more you pull people out of poverty, the more you reduce criminality. You must deal with it. [00:49:57] Speaker ?: Thank you. Okay. [00:49:58] Speaker 1: Okay. [00:49:59] Speaker ?: Actually, I'm insecure in my lifetime. [00:50:02] Speaker 8: My state, for example, is for the first time ever. It's shocking. Yeah. Seeing reports of ISSP. Imagine going on Reuters and seeing my state. And then I have to report the news. So I would love to see or to know from you what your vision is of policing in Nigeria. How can we effectively -- it's this huge country where we know we have serious corruption in the army. We have serious corruption in the police. How can we actually do this when we're fighting against forces backed by Al-Qaeda? [00:50:35] Peter Obi: My sister, the corruption starts from the decks of number one. Quote me anyway. I've been a governor. If you're not stealing, your wife is not. Your children are not. You reduce it by 50%. I've governed the state. If you decide that this has to stop, because don't forget that you are the one who is signing it. It's like LX is in charge of this place. For us to be corrupt, it has to be. Simple. If it's not corrupt, by the time everything comes to his desk, we'll stop it. Because it's not part of it. But the corruption starts that he has his own interest, maybe 10%. Then I put my five. Everybody is putting his own. Because his own is there. He can't challenge it. I have governed the states. Simple. And I've challenged people. Go there and show me where their money is missing. And I've told you. I can give you my handover note. It's written everywhere. That's not what I'm talking. I was in Chatham House. And I said it that day. I said, "If you find anywhere..." Annan Bradstead money was stolen. I stopped campaigning. And that's my challenge today. Two, this is my 14 years of leaving office as a governor. The government of Annan Bradstead have not bought for me a cup of tea. Because I refused to sign the pension. So what are we talking? You can change it. I want to be partners with Germany. Simmons is doing power in Egypt. I was there in Egypt. He's working. Why is he not working in Nigeria? The same company built a power plant in Egypt and is working. Egypt was able... Egypt, I'm not talking about the first world now. Egypt was able to increase its power from about 20,000 megawatts to over 48,000 megawatts in five years. I didn't have not been able to do... From five what we're distributing, nine to ten, something is missing. Simple. [00:53:12] Speaker 8: May I build... Okay, so let me just ask you, for example, say you are now the president of Nigeria and we've given you 100 days. How would you tackle insecurity, like, step by step? Is there a way to build that vision? [00:53:25] Peter Obi: That's what I just told him now. He can't tackle it in 100 days. First is that you have to change your architecture and ensure that you're in charge. I'll give you an example. Just a very minor example. I'm sure you saw, if you follow me on Twitter, you see where I complained about the same kidnap that you know you are. Yes. Thank God the children are home. Let me give you an example. Fifty days after the kidnap, the president and the governor have not spoken. Do you know what that means? Imagine what it is if they do that kidnap happened on Monday and the president is in all year on Tuesday. I said, "I won't take this." All my security people, it's not Bush that is in there. He said, "I Bush, everybody, I can't take this." I have first criminality in my state. Imagine what is happening in Kuala. Have you ever heard that anybody from government visited Kuala? What do you think you're doing? We have our children in the Bush. And we're talking about next election. No way. You level the place. That's why you're in charge. There must be actions. So you just don't blame this thing. Your soldiers are dying. How many of them have you gone to the burial and give morale to the people? So we must... And then what measures are you doing to ensure that the small people are being pulled out of poverty? He is talking about this. The president coming to Nigeria. He's talking about what other people are benefiting. These things are driven by leadership. You're not communicating to the people. Moody of India does speak to the people virtually every day. And do, in a month, over 450 tweets. It's a communication thing. You have to give the people morale. You have to tell people who listen. I can't have this. This cannot happen in my state. So that's the country. [00:56:00] Speaker 1: Yeah. Let's follow up here. [00:56:02] Speaker 7: Yes, I have two. I don't know if I can... Yeah, yeah, please. Okay, great. [00:56:06] Speaker 1: And after this, we'll move on to international relations and foreign policy. [00:56:10] Speaker 7: I know Chief Shola had spoken about state policy, but I just wanted you to get specifically clear where you stand on the independence of governors of the first six states to independently run your own policy in Nigeria. [00:56:25] Peter Obi: Let me tell you, when I was governor, I started community policing. I want you to take note of it. I bought each community in Anambra state vehicle, equipped their vigilante. And you can go and read what the IG of police said that five years after Anambra have the list. Don't have any criminality. Can you Google that in Abubakatele actually? You can see it from the IG of police. You know? You know, if I said it was driven out of Anambra city. Because this is a simple thing. It's not a rocket science. The police, the criminals are known in their community. So if you pay the community, so there's nothing. Genuinely, if the person number one wants to do it rightly, the governors will do it right. What is the flow? [00:57:21] Speaker 1: And Peter, the militias, who are they then accountable to? How do they tie in with, you know, state and structures? [00:57:30] Peter Obi: Which one? [00:57:30] Speaker 1: You said you funded the militias. [00:57:33] Peter Obi: The vigilantes. They are counted by the communities. They have traditional rulers. They have Pg's in communities. They are not Malaysians. [00:57:40] Speaker 1: Okay. [00:57:41] Peter Obi: They are vigilantes within the... I mean, let me put it this way. You have police today from Berlin police, don't you? Yeah, and you have national police. That's what the thing is. So there's nothing wrong in state policing. If the national policing is doing the rising, the state policing will because if they do the wrong thing, the law allows the federal to take over. But you can, if you have foreign states today, they have their own police, have in the communities, it is easy for them to deploy and deal with issues that are local. But it has to be done in an organized manner where the governors are not using it for their benefit. And I keep saying it. If the people in my interview, in my last interview, I said it. I had an issue with erosion, 2:00 a.m. And I called President Obasanjo, 2:00 a.m. And he answered me. I picked the phone and said, can I speak to the president? Just imagine. They put it through to him. And he answered me, 2:00 a.m. So there's a difference between me calling the president that is answering me and the president not calling me for 50 days. It's critical. [00:59:07] Speaker 7: As a member of a position, they're concerned around state policing, especially when we can see clear court's pretty reaction to crisis. Like you said, the Oyo state governor, again, in fact, the Oyo state governor hadn't spoken to the president of the debate for 2020 now. Because his stance with the current government is completely perverted. Wouldn't you be concerned? [00:59:35] Peter Obi: Which you shouldn't be. [00:59:36] Speaker 7: Yes, of course. Wouldn't you be concerned that the state governors have been to hide their horses and now, you know, ensure that... [00:59:43] Peter Obi: If the national government is not doing that, the state government can do it. You know, I've been in operation. There are things people don't know. As governor, I had state house of assembly where one person was not from my party. No Senate member is from my party, yet I was able to govern for eight years. If you're doing the right thing, people will play. So it's about leadership, and if you get the rights, you know, focus on the critical areas that drive development. [01:00:40] Speaker 1: I'm going to put it down. I'm going to put it down. Yeah. Still security. [01:00:44] Speaker 9: I mean, if you imagine we can... Yeah, yeah, no, no, no. And then I'll move on to... I'll stop this. Yeah. I'd like you to come back to what you mentioned with ECOS and kind of how you want to bring it what used to be in that sense, the relationship to other regional powers like Ghana, where Ghana is doing at the moment and sort of the efforts that have been ongoing in the region and to some extent also to a group, for example, so kind of how you see Nigeria's role in the current context within ECOS and kind of the also bilateral efforts that happened. [01:01:18] Peter Obi: You know, if you follow the history of Nigeria, if I understand what you're saying, Nigeria has been the driver of ECOS and Africa, because being the most populous country in Africa, Nigeria has been contributing in peacekeeping globally and mostly in West Africa and Africa. So what Nigeria needs to do now is to go back and play that role. And to do that, you need peace in your sub-region. You need peace in your sub-region. And it's very critical. [01:01:59] Speaker 9: Can you elaborate on how the steps basically to bring you? [01:02:02] Peter Obi: That peace. [01:02:04] Speaker 1: Yeah, especially the AES and the... [01:02:07] Speaker ?: Yeah, exactly. [01:02:08] Peter Obi: The AES steps. [01:02:10] Speaker 1: How do you tie people of us back together? [01:02:13] Peter Obi: No, it's a very easy thing. Go and sit down and talk with them. Simple. You see, you need them. They need you. Go and sit down. You are the president of the country. You go and meet. It's like saying, how do you get... We used to be friends and we did something and we disagreed. We can get back together. It's not a rocket science. It's a question of going to sit down and say, well, listen, I need you and you need me. That's all. [01:02:43] Speaker 9: How would that articulate with the efforts of other regions in the country... Other countries in the region that are receiving these talks at the moment? Because basically, from my perspective, Nigeria is kind of a bit the missing piece at the moment. [01:02:57] Peter Obi: Nigeria is what? [01:02:59] Speaker 1: The missing piece of the puzzle. For example, most of the other states have created AES Sahel envoys. Ghana has... This is a very... That's what I said. Nigeria doesn't have one. [01:03:11] Peter Obi: That's the same thing I said. You go to them. You need them. You know, you need them. It's not a rocket science. You need them. And if you need somebody, you go to him. No matter... Even if his business is smaller than you, you go to them because you need them. That's it. Thank you very much. [01:03:27] Speaker 1: Yes. We've got 15 minutes left. So let's turn a bit more broadly to foreign policy. [01:03:35] Peter Obi: Yes. [01:03:36] Speaker 1: So if you were president, how would you handle the Chinas and the Russias and the kind of the fractiousness of geopolitics? Where would be Nigeria's priorities? Is it an America first or Europe first? How would it be? [01:03:55] Peter Obi: Well, let me put it this way. First is that for you to have a respectable foreign policy, you must have a strong domestic economy. That's where you start. Because if you have strong domestic economy, everybody wants to relate with you. Our relationship should be tied first to Europe because you are nearer to us and everything. And we need to look at it. We have more people who have been to schools in Germany like him, like her, than we have people who have been to schools in China anywhere. So it's all a mix. You're not going to quarry with any country. But you're going to have, because you have a strong economy, everybody wants. Nigeria is a huge market, 230 million people. And you're nearer to us. If I ship, let's say in shipping or doing business, if I ship a container from here to Nigeria, it will cost me, from China, it will cost me three times than from China. Because I'm just giving a little, a simple, you know, all that. So there's the relationship. Yeah, we'll look at Europe, we'll look at America and everything and take it from there. But I assure you, we will focus on having strong domestic economy that is thriving and be able to position ourselves where we will extract values from our relationships. But of course, people like me and everything, having been around in Europe and America, will naturally want to work with these nations. And then, of course, from China. [01:05:48] Speaker 1: And, yeah, if you became president, obviously a lot of ambassadors would be recalled because that is the cycle. You know, I mean, under President Tanubo, it was two and a half, maybe almost three years before appointments of ambassadors. You know, how much focus would you have on Nigerian diplomacy to assist you in? [01:06:12] Peter Obi: Well, we'll do whatever we can do as quickly as possible. Well, we'll make those ambassadors to be more productive and add more value. It will not just be a political appointment. Because the embassies have not actually offered the value they're supposed to offer. Because you find out more of a political settlement. If you look at the election, they make you an ambassador. We're not going to do this. All those things have to stop. [01:06:38] Speaker 1: So you would be, you're saying you'd empower more career diplomats to. [01:06:43] Peter Obi: Completely. Because we need to, because we need to, we need to extract value for that relationship. Yeah. It's not just being used to settle relations and everybody or party officials. It should be for a purpose. So what are we getting if somebody is representing us in Germany? What is our relationship? We need value from Germany. I want to be able to talk to this Federation. Talk to them. How they're going to help us towards our small businesses. How they're going to provide funding. And like you asked, how are we going to do this? Guarantee that this loans and this and support and all that. Make sure that small businesses get money more competitively and more trained. You don't expect small business to start and borrow money at something percent and survive. It's not going to work. So there must be something we are getting. Yeah. [01:07:41] Speaker 1: And dealing with some of the, you know, the politics, for example, of the United States. When, take an example, Senator Ted Cruz alleges that there's kind of Christian genocide in Nigeria. How would you handle that? [01:07:57] Peter Obi: Well, you know, for me, everybody's affected. Christians and non-Christians are affected. In Kuala State, for example, where everybody's affected. So really, yes, there might be issues. And that's why I said the issue of unity. By time you start driving unity, inclusiveness and everything. People will not see reason to say, hey, wait a minute. I told you about a country called Indonesia. Indonesia is 90% Muslims. 90%, if not more. So there's three Christians. But it will surprise you that last year, no, 2024 October, the Pope visited Indonesia. You can Google it. October 2024, the Pope visited Indonesia. A country with less than 5%, about 5% Christians. And they declared public on this. I want to ask President Joko that you are 90-something percent Muslims. And the Pope came here and you declared public. He says the best thing that happened to them. That he went to the airport to receive him. He prayed for others. What does he say? Religion plays no role in this. I have never seen, have you ever seen anybody go to shop and say I'm a Muslim and bought anything cheaper or I'm a Christian. This is where things people are bringing in to distort the fact that we need good leadership. Yeah. [01:09:48] Speaker 1: Anyway, his resume is there. Please go ahead. [01:09:51] Lilina Hoon: If they continue or even spread to other countries, what would your response to that be, especially with South Africa being such a big country, also within the African Union? [01:10:02] Peter Obi: Well, you know, what is happening in South Africa is very regrettable, you know, and I feel bad. And I think, again, when I talk about leadership, what is happening in South Africa is an issue that Africa Union should take seriously. If I was president of Nigeria and that is happening, I would reach out immediately to my South African counterpart. I would probably go to South Africa. It's the same point. It's the same. You have issue. You deal with issue. And that comes issue of capacity. Ability to respond when there's a problem. You know, ability to market when there's a problem. Because that's the problem it is. I've been to South Africa myself. As an opposition, met three ministers in South Africa discussing the issue. But that is, I'm not the president. [01:11:14] Speaker 1: You and I were in a meeting where we... [01:11:16] Peter Obi: Oh, yes, you were there. [01:11:17] Speaker 1: We heard a very disturbing narrative too. [01:11:20] Peter Obi: Yeah, but I saw... I met with the minister. Yeah. I went after meeting him. He gave me his number and said, let's be talking. You engage them. [01:11:29] Speaker 8: You went there during this current wave of Africa. [01:11:31] Speaker 1: He knew, I was there. It was about a month ago. Yeah, I was there. Yeah, he was there. [01:11:36] Peter Obi: I was there. It was a crisis. You go there. I went to even see our own people. So there's a difference if Nigerian president goes to South Africa today and said to Surin, my people are being killed. The issue was convert an emergency AU meeting. You know, these are issues we need to deal with. You don't sit down on a Zoom. You know, leadership and communication is critical. Just leadership and listening and learning is important. [01:12:21] Speaker 1: So we have a final question then. Please go ahead. [01:12:23] Speaker 6: Yeah, it's not to wrap up. Yeah, please. Yeah. Because we know that on Sunday, you will celebrate for 65. [01:12:32] Peter Obi: Is it on Sunday? [01:12:38] Speaker 1: You're very well informed. [01:12:40] Peter Obi: On Sunday. Yes, yes, yes. Sunday. Sunday, Sunday. I didn't even know. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's actually Sunday. I never celebrated birthday, so I don't remember it. [01:12:57] Speaker 6: It's nice you are saying that you are crying because your sun is going down. Your tears should never hide your views to the stars or the stars of Europe, of course. [01:13:17] Peter Obi: Thank you. Thank you. I'm keeping in mind after the election, and besides that, if the fairy godmother would [01:13:24] Speaker 6: give you free wishes for your work, what would you do for the nation that's realized for your first measures being in power? [01:13:34] Peter Obi: My first measure was being in power. After this, to unite the country. There's a lot we need to do about bringing hope to the Timi youth of Nigeria. Today, they are dissolution. They don't know where to start. Nobody, you know, the system seems to make them develop a sense of hopelessness. They need to see that the country is driving in the right direction. [01:14:12] Speaker 1: I think that's an appropriate moment. Peter, thank you very much for coming to Berlin. You came from New York straight here. You'll be back in Nigeria, I think, for your birthday. [01:14:33] Peter Obi: Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. It's here, but I have to thank for the opportunity of our meeting. And like I said, people, please help us in any way you can to ensure that we get it right. You know what is happening in New York State. Which state are you? Crush in the state. Interesting. So my wife is from there. So all those things. Everybody knows what is happening. So let us come together as the family and get it to work. It's not about me. It's not about you. It's not about anybody. It's about all of us saying we can't continue in this direction. We need the leadership that have the competence, the capacity for this and everything to drive that process. It's a huge country. It requires somebody who has an idea of what it's all about and wants to achieve success of it. It's not about you. [01:15:35] Speaker 1: Right. Well, thank you, everybody. And if you're interested in the Africa work of ECFR, there's Suzanne and Bella here, who are part of the Africa program based in Berlin. Thank you, everybody. Thank you, everybody. [01:16:04] Speaker 10: From Nigeria, Africa and the global diaspora As part of the NJ Media Group NJ Media, TV and news If you're done, I'm new And you're used to spying through digital news And come by season seven [01:16:34] Speaker ?: And you're used to spying through digital news And you're used to spying through digital news And you're used to spying through digital news And you're used to spying through digital news And you're used to spying through digital news And you're used to spying through digital news And you're used to spying through digital news And you're used to spying through digital news And you're used to spying through digital news And you're used to spying through digital news And you're used to spying through digital news And you're used to spying through digital news And you're used to spying through digital news And you're used to spying through digital news And you're used to spying through digital news [01:16:54] Speaker 10: And you're used to spying through digital news And you're used to spying through digital news And you're used to spying through digital news Bringing breaking stories New news from the corners of the globe