Nicola Sturgeon speaks out on the crime of her estranged husband — BBC Newscast

[0:00] Lucky newscasters, Laura, are not just getting one edition today, but two as to your Nicola Sturgeon scoop. [0:06] It's never enough. So you might have seen on the BBC, different platforms on your phone or wherever, [0:12] or if you've been watching the telly or listening to the radio, that we did a full-length interview with Nicola Sturgeon, [0:18] her first proper interview since her husband pled guilty to stealing £400,000 from the SNP. [0:25] What we're doing this Sunday is we've put the whole interview, 55 minutes, in the newscast feed so you can listen to that. [0:32] Really worth listening to. [0:33] Yeah, and there's all sorts of stuff in there. We couldn't fit it all in on the telly. [0:36] So if you're someone that's really interested in her, or you've been following the story really carefully, [0:41] or you're just kind of fascinated, the full conversation is there for you in your feeds. [0:45] So what we're going to do this afternoon with me and you, and also with Henry at home, [0:49] is talk about, I suppose, the headlines and the highlights and give you a bit of analysis. [0:53] On this episode of Newscast. [0:55] Hello, it's Laura in the studio. [0:59] And it's Joe Pike in the studio. [1:01] And hello, it's Henry at home. [1:03] So Joe, I'm feeling a bit knackered, frankly, so give us a recap of how we got to this place. [1:08] Well, it's been a story over many years. [1:12] There were, what, five, six years ago, questions about the SNP's finances. [1:18] Different parts of this story firstly concerns that money that had been given [1:22] for an independent referendum campaign fund were not in the account. [1:27] So questions raised by people in the party and some on the ruling NEC about that. [1:33] But separately, more recently, and we're talking probably three or four years ago, [1:39] questions about Peter Morrell's role running the party. [1:45] He was the chief executive for, what, about 20 years, appointed by John Swinney, [1:52] who's now the first minister, was the leader, somebody who knew Peter Morrell as a schoolboy. [1:59] And most significantly, a couple of years ago, Nicola Sturgeon, the former treasurer of the SNP, [2:07] and Peter Morrell were arrested or questioned, but only Peter Morrell was charged. [2:12] And this week, he pleaded guilty to, as you said at the start, embezzling £400,000. [2:18] And we've had this quite eye-popping, jaw-dropping, bizarre list of household items [2:25] that he had as part of that hall. [2:27] It's just really, really weird, frankly, the kind of things, whether it was loo roll, [2:30] or loo seats, or watches worth £1,000 and more, or the notorious motorhome, [2:36] which I'm sure we might talk about in a minute. [2:38] I'm interested to know how you two thought she came across in the interview, [2:41] because it's not always the same on the telly as it feels like in the room. [2:46] But one of the interesting things about this is the timing. [2:49] So she's wanted to have her say, after his guilty plea, you can understand why she didn't [2:55] want to speak in any detail during the case and before it had come to a conclusion. [2:59] But he's not actually going to be sentenced until the next month. [3:03] So it's interesting to me that she's taken, in a way, almost the earliest opportunity [3:09] to get this out there. [3:11] Now, she didn't speak, you know, not immediately after he pled guilty. [3:14] She had a couple of appearances at book festivals where she really didn't want to say very much [3:18] and sort of ran away from some of the cameras. [3:21] But she has obviously wanted to get her version of Vince out there into the public domain. [3:26] And I think, you know, one of the things in all of this is not just that it's been terribly [3:29] hurtful to find out what her husband was up to. [3:32] She also, I think, feels really something of a fury that her reputation for some people, [3:37] in some people's eyes, has been trashed by all of this. [3:41] But Henry, how did you think she came across? [3:44] You know, I thought, actually, for somebody who is clearly in the eye of a very serious personal [3:51] crisis, I think she acknowledged that, given Peter Murrell is her estranged husband, [3:56] as well as a pretty serious national news story. [4:00] I thought she was fairly composed. [4:02] That's not to underplay the emotion and, at times, the cold anger that she demonstrated. [4:09] But Nicola Sturgeon was a huge figure, not only in Scottish politics as first minister, [4:14] but in British politics at a time of constitutional turmoil, in part because she was such an effective [4:21] communicator, delivering the message that she wanted to deliver at certain times. [4:26] And I thought you saw glimpses, more than glimpses, actually. You saw a demonstration of that from [4:33] Nicola Sturgeon, even at a time when she's dealing with something which crosses the political and the [4:38] personal. And sometimes when politicians end up having to account for things in their personal [4:43] lives or actions by their loved ones, even very good communicators can end up, perhaps understandably, [4:49] losing sight of the message and ending up with sort of contradictory messages that they give. [4:56] I didn't think that was the case with Nicola Sturgeon. [4:58] Sure, there are a lot of people who are not going to like or believe that she gave a full account [5:02] in what they heard. But I think it was pretty clear that she came in to your interview, [5:07] Laura, with certain things that she needed to say, and she got them across very effectively. [5:11] It's interesting, though, because I couldn't believe having interviewed Nicola Sturgeon [5:14] a million times over the years. Maybe I'm exaggerating slightly. [5:18] It was, in the room, extraordinary to me to see her repeatedly welling up with tears [5:22] and having to stop herself from crying. And I do not say that in the way that drives me [5:29] around the twist, which has for years, whereas if a female politician shows any emotion whatsoever, [5:33] it's like, oh, she was crying. It's something Theresa May used to talk about. [5:36] Lots of people used to complain about this. And, you know, men and women, guess what, [5:40] are treated differently often by the press. Put that aside, it was extraordinary to me to see someone [5:46] who in interviews has been so tough, sort of bulletproof, actually at times have to stop [5:53] herself when her eyes were welling up. And it happened on quite a few occasions. [5:58] And I don't see that to make it to make a cheap point. I think it just shows us actually how this [6:03] is such a mishmash of a massive political scandal, because that is what it is. It's a huge political [6:09] financial scandal, one of the biggest in recent times. You know, this is not Boris Johnson's wallpaper [6:13] we're talking about here. It's 400 grand. But mix that with what is also a very difficult human [6:21] story for someone, frankly, who's really famous, you know, and it was fascinating to see her. [6:27] Should we just go through some of the headlines of what she actually said? If people have not yet [6:30] listened to our whole 55 minute conversation, shall I start? We've got to look with someone's [6:35] given us a list, which is very, very helpful. So she said she feels like she's serving a sentence [6:41] for a crime that she didn't commit, having to do that in the full public glare. She told me she feels [6:46] she's been humiliated. And there was a real kind of sense of what she feels is injustice, [6:52] that she's taken so much hassle on this. I had her reputation attacked, even though [6:58] the criminal element of this was down to him. And I think there was a vacuum this week, [7:04] which is why she's jumped in here and sat down and spoken to you, Laura. [7:08] And in that vacuum where, yes, there were a couple of tweets and Instagram posts setting [7:12] out her position and she'd have a couple of words to reporters at book festivals when she was being [7:17] doorstepped. But in that vacuum, she admitted she has been humiliated. She's been on the front page of [7:24] of the Daily Record newspaper being depicted as Manuel. I know nothing is the sort of image of her. [7:33] And it is humiliating. She is a butt of jokes. And as Mamir mentioned on your show today, Laura, [7:39] that poll in the Sunday Times showing only 20% of people believe she didn't know. And I think [7:45] after watching that, certainly on the point of, were you aware of the items? She gave a case that [7:52] some people might see as convincing. The problem, and we'll go through some of the other headlines, [7:57] the problem is on her leadership of the party and the party's finances. She didn't seem to want to [8:02] take much responsibility. No, and that is the difficult thing, [8:04] is the private and the public. So privately, in her private life, she was very clear. [8:08] She basically says, I was at work all the time. I didn't notice the stuff that he was buying. [8:13] Some of them were presents for me. And when we mentioned one of the gifts that had been given to [8:17] her, this particular necklace that she'd been bought by Murrow while they were on a campaigning [8:22] trip to Shetland, she found that very difficult to talk about and really, really emotional to cast her [8:28] mind back to how she feels he had betrayed her. In 2019, I'd been campaigning a lot in Shetland [8:35] and we went to visit, as part of the campaign, we went to visit this amazing business, the Shetland [8:41] Jewelers. And I was being shown around the shop and I stopped at this pendant. I mean, [8:46] you've seen pictures of it. It's beautiful. Later that night, Peter said to me, I've got a surprise for you. [8:54] And I saw you admiring this pendant and gave me it. Sorry. I loved that necklace and [9:04] I wore it a lot. And this is the other thing, the idea that I would have gone about wearing things [9:11] that I had known were anything other than what they were presented to me as a gift from my husband. [9:17] And to then find out that these were gifts given to me that he bought with the party's money [9:25] causes a level of, I don't know, pain, bewilderment. I don't know. I just, I'm not sure. I'm going to [9:33] try. I'm just not sure I will ever properly come to terms with that. But time and again, she was [9:39] absolutely adamant that she knew absolutely nothing. She basically didn't notice. Where we get then to [9:45] the question of her job as the leader of the party, that means that she was one of the party officers. [9:51] That means she had a technical and specific responsibility to monitor the accounts. [9:55] When I asked her about that, she was like, well, what about the motor home? Well, [9:59] I didn't think anything of it. It didn't stand out to me. This entry line of tens of thousands [10:04] of pounds for motor vehicles. What about when there was a drop of £300,000 one year in the party [10:10] accounts? She didn't particularly recall that. And you make the point as well, in your interview, [10:15] you say you were sort of depicted, maybe accurately, as a micromanager in government. And why, [10:22] for somebody who was so work obsessed, so detail obsessed, and presumably was so tough on civil [10:27] servants when they came to you with stuff you didn't necessarily believe, were you different [10:33] in terms of your own husband? And also there seemed to be a strategy for her to try and push some of the [10:40] responsibility, maybe rightly, maybe wrongly on both the auditors and the SNP official [10:46] party treasurer at the time too. And Henry, do you think that that will be convincing to her [10:50] political critics who are also, frankly, you know, sometimes other rival politicians will play a game [10:55] with this, won't they? It will be deeply helpful for opposition parties to the SNP in Scotland [11:01] and their rivals in Westminster to carry all of this on. But do you think that she is [11:07] in reputational trouble, I suppose, over this question of the accounts, even though the police [11:11] made a decision not to charge her? Yeah, unquestionably. And I think when [11:16] Nicola Sturgeon understandably kept saying that she'd been exonerated, well, that's true [11:21] on one very specific level, which is that she was interviewed by the police and ultimately not [11:27] charged. But that doesn't mean that she's exonerated in the political arena where a different bar [11:33] applies to the criminal law. And I think it's there where she is going to have real trouble, [11:38] real trouble going to book festivals in future years, which she would like to do and being treated [11:45] as somebody who is, you know, cleaner than a whistle. I mean, I think that's where she's going [11:50] to have real difficulty. It might well help answer that question that you raised earlier of why she [11:54] decided to give this interview so quickly. You know, I've seen those clips from the book festivals, [11:59] and I wonder whether it took her aback that actually people really want to ask her about [12:03] this. I think you get to the crucial point as well, Jo, when you mentioned the responsibilities [12:09] she had as a party leader, you know, as a huge figure in British politics over the decade or so [12:15] that she was leader of the SNP as well as first minister, which is that, look, Laura, [12:19] you'd still have been doing this interview if Nicola Sturgeon had never been married to Peter [12:23] Murrell. It still would have been a huge scandal, what happened on her watch. Clearly, [12:28] the fact that some of these things were bought for her and they were married adds a particular [12:34] frisson and a particular character to this story. But it's still a massive scandal that happened on [12:39] her watch as leader of the Scottish National Party. And obviously, if this had happened in [12:45] another political party, one of the SNP's rivals, she would be prosecuting their leader in the political [12:52] arena in just the same way as she is now going to face questions for a very long time to come. [12:57] Oh, she would have been doing it with great force and great, I mean, ability. I think it's one of [13:02] the things about this story, which makes it, I was going to say gives it such pathos, but what a [13:06] ridiculously pompous thing to say that I'd normally leave that to Paddy, is that she was one of the [13:12] biggest political stars of her generation. And her political career has ended with massive and [13:18] profound embarrassment. And how did it end? [13:23] One thing that she sort of nodded to there, but maybe caught herself, I couldn't work out in the [13:28] longer version. Newscastle will have maybe able to listen back and give their sort of thoughts. But [13:33] she talked about first being aware at the start of 2023, and then she said spring. [13:38] She of course resigned in February 2023. It was a massive shock. It came from nowhere. [13:46] She talked about being at a funeral of a big SNP figure and that maybe being the final point. [13:52] Is it possible that maybe the fact that she heard from others that the police were [13:58] progressing their investigation? We don't know, but it's fascinating what really pushed her. [14:03] Well, that's right. And she said at the time that the two events weren't related. There was a lot of [14:08] skepticism about that, but that was her position. But I was really fascinated as well when she was [14:15] talking about when she first confronted him. Had she ever confronted him? Had he ever given her an [14:22] explanation? And the first thing she remembers doing and confronting him is when the motorhome was [14:27] reported. This notorious motorhome worth more than a hundred grand that was parked in her mother-in-law's [14:32] drive. Although she explained really for the first time in detail that actually it was parked [14:37] slightly around the corner so she didn't notice it. Could have been the neighbours was her sort of excuse. [14:42] My mother-in-law, or my mother and father-in-law's house, has a driveway in front of their house where we [14:47] would park her car and then we'd go into the house. Where the motorhome was, was round the side of the house, [14:55] which is not immediately visible in the way that we went into the house. [14:59] And it's between their house and the next door neighbour's house. Now, I genuinely, genuinely don't [15:04] have any conscious memory of seeing that motorhome. If I saw it, I probably would have assumed it was [15:11] a neighbour's. My mother and father-in-law were in their mid-80s. I would have just not, it would not [15:17] have crossed my mind it was theirs. And it would never have, why would it have crossed my mind that it [15:21] was the SNPs that Peter had bought it? The motorhome has taken on, I think the same [15:26] sort of status as, you know, Boris Johnson's wallpaper, hasn't it? You know, the motorhome, [15:31] subject of memes, subject of people sort of poking fun at it. But this isn't funny, you know, [15:37] this was hundreds of thousands of pounds. And there's an unresolved question too, about whether [15:42] or not, not in this case, but whether or not Peter Merrill was using taxpayers' money too, [15:48] as part of his spending. We don't really, you know, we don't really know about that, [15:51] but there are questions being asked about taxpayers' money. Because fun fact, political [15:55] parties are given a certain amount of money, short money as it's known, dependent on how big they are. [16:02] Theoretically, because political parties should have some cash for the public good, [16:05] so they can exist and work on policy and, you know, help the sort of democratic system. [16:10] But if there is to be a Westminster inquiry, or a Scottish Parliament inquiry, that I think would [16:15] be one of the areas that they will go after. And Pat McFadden today, the Working Pension [16:20] Secretary, he was a MP from Scotland, although he didn't represent a Scottish constituency, [16:24] he was quite clear he'd like to see an inquiry. It's interesting what happens in terms of Holyrood, [16:28] because of course, the SNP are far more powerful at Holyrood, wants to block one at the moment. [16:34] But that could lead to a Westminster inquiry, where they have one seat of, I think, [16:39] maybe 10 or 11 people, where therefore the opposition to the SNP will be far stronger, [16:45] and therefore that could be a bit more awkward. So why don't you just get it done in Holyrood, [16:50] and have more control over who appears and what happens? [16:52] We will see. But I think either way, I think there is probably going to be some form of inquiry, [16:57] whether it's in the Scottish Parliament, or in the Houses of Parliament in Westminster, [17:01] or maybe even in both, who knows, all sorts of fun. [17:05] And two more course appearances as well. Firstly, you've got the appearance where maybe the narrative [17:11] around Peter Morrow's offending will come out. What we don't know too much about yet is the sort [17:18] of cover up. He will talk about how he covered up, but we will get more details, presumably. [17:23] And then there's a sentencing. And what will his defence lawyer say in mitigation? What was going [17:29] through his head? What is the explanation for all of that? [17:32] And we don't know. [17:33] I thought Pat McFadden's declaration that there should be an inquiry sort of guarantees that this [17:39] story drags on, for sure, in ways that will be very uncomfortable for Nicola Sturgeon, [17:44] way beyond the sentencing. But I also was just really struck by the kind of almost emotion of [17:50] his language. He talked about how the SNP has been dominant in Scotland for years now, [17:55] not just in politics, but also in society and culture. And I think he said that had been sustained [18:00] by their sense of virtue. I mean, Pat McFadden is a very restrained man. He's quite laconic. [18:08] He's quite softly spoken. But I think that was essentially, you know, a Scot, as well as a [18:13] cabinet minister in the Westminster government, saying that he believes this party pretended to [18:20] be holier than thou and that, you know, that this needs to be interrogated so that that sense can [18:27] be interrogated. I just thought that was in a very brief sentence. I thought that actually said [18:33] something which you two know much more about than me because you've lived there, which is about the [18:37] ways in which Scottish society has divided over the past two decades as the SNP's strength has grown. [18:43] I think that's really interesting. Yeah. And the discipline and the discipline that they had as a [18:47] unit. And, you know, that is the thing, frankly, that critics of Nicola Sturgeon find probably hardest [18:52] to believe is that she was somebody who's incredibly disciplined, incredibly effective, incredibly [18:57] politically gripped. And yet when it came to the running of the party, that does not appear for them [19:03] to have been the case. And that really is at the sort of heart of all of this for this sort of [19:11] Scottish political establishment, I suppose. There's all these amazing elements to this story. There's [19:16] the personal story. There's the human story. There's the public going, you want, you can get [19:19] salt and pepper grinders for three grand. What? I mean, who knew that they even existed? And there's [19:26] so much that's weird. She says in our longer interview, bought all these watches. Actually, [19:29] he never even wore a watch. So where were, where were the watches? I mean, where's the onesie? [19:34] Where's the, all of this stuff is, is just kind of grimly fascinating. Well, who knows? [19:40] The loo roll, luxury loo roll, apparently, and lots and lots of it. [19:43] On the discipline point, Laura, I think it's really worth noting that the SNP is unlike other [19:48] parties and that it's incredibly disciplined because there is a wider aim. And it makes sense [19:54] to have that discipline, but there isn't really a culture of internal criticism. After the 2015 [20:01] general election, when the SNP really broke through and got 56 out of 59 seats, there was also this sort [20:07] of these new tightening, ratcheting up of rules. So you, you were told as an MP, you can't criticise [20:13] other people within the party. And that's where I think a lot of people listening this morning will [20:18] think that she was vulnerable because there was a pattern of people trying to raise concern about the [20:22] finances over a fair period of time, who were accused of being conspiracy theorists, who were accused of [20:29] running a dirty tricks campaign against the leadership. And in our interview, her defence on this is, [20:34] they weren't raising claims about embezzling, which is what Peter was doing. They were raising [20:40] claims about something else. Our point to her, journalistically, is look, there were people [20:46] raising concerns about what was going on with the finances and they were not given the transparency [20:53] that they were seeking. And ought you not, as the leader of that party, have greeted the calls for [21:00] transparency with transparency, rather than trying to say, go away, you're just trying to make trouble [21:06] for the leadership. So even internally in the SNP, this became a real proxy for disputes, unhappiness, [21:13] because there are people in the SNP who didn't like Nicola Sturgeon's leadership very much either. [21:17] And Joanna Cherry was one of them, former SNP MP, pretty eminent lawyer, KC, who has been watching your [21:24] interview this morning, Laura, and tweeted about it. Some of the coverage says that Sturgeon was [21:29] flatly refusing to accept whistleblowers were blocked. And Joanna Cherry tweets this, [21:34] this is simply untrue. The footage of her telling us that the finances were healthy and to be careful [21:38] about asking questions was her response to the announcement that three members of the finance [21:42] and audit committee were resigning because Murrell would not show them the books. So some who were [21:50] critics back then remain critics even after watching your interview. But John Swinney, the First [21:54] Minister, was also speaking this morning, also responding to the interview. Let's hear what he had [21:59] to say. Well, what actually happened, we now know, is that there was criminality underway, [22:04] that Peter Murrell was deceiving people, that he was, as the police statement said in the aftermath [22:10] of the court guilty plea on Monday, that invoices were being forged, that items were being miscoded, [22:17] that essentially there was a whole elaborate set of arrangements in place to ensure that Peter was [22:24] covering his tracks. Now that is, that is what happened. We now know that there was a criminal act [22:30] underway. Shall we tell you what some newscasters made of the interview? Because I think the public [22:34] reaction is going to be fascinating. Newscasters have been WhatsAppping. Thank you very much indeed [22:38] for getting in touch with us. So first message, this is blatant victim blaming against Nicola Sturgeon. [22:45] Her husband committed insider fraud. He's the criminal. And this is, this is a societal problem, [22:50] put my teeth back in, that we blame the victims over the criminal. However, some people are taking [22:56] a very different tack. Joe? Sturgeon honestly thinks, quote, we're all that gullible. The only [23:01] person buying that version is gullible Swinney. It would be easier selling Christmas to turkeys. And I [23:07] think the opposition parties in Scotland, if they're wise, and they seem to be already doing this, are not [23:13] going to worry too much about Nicola Sturgeon. She's not the person they're fighting anymore. The person [23:18] they're going to try and go for is John Swinney, ramping up the pressure on him, putting pressure [23:23] to hold some form of inquiry, and also highlighting his long friendship over many decades. [23:29] And a senior Labour person in Scotland was, when we announced our interview at six o'clock, [23:33] someone was messaging me late last night saying, oh, trying to, trying to get me to tell them what [23:37] was in the interview, scurrilously, which I will say on the record that of course I completely refuse to [23:42] divulge anything. But their point was, I want to know what this means for what is next. There's no [23:47] political advantage beyond kind of causing reputational embarrassment and tying them up in [23:52] knots in terms of opposition politicians trying to give Nicola Sturgeon a hard time. There is huge [23:57] advantage for them trying to cause trouble for John Swinney in terms of the government that he now runs, [24:04] and has only just got back into power. And Jo, just because you know about this, you've literally [24:09] written the book on this. Just explain to people how tightly knit political parties are in Scotland. [24:20] I mean, they are everywhere in the UK, but the sort of Scottish SNP political family, just explain how [24:27] tightly knit it really is. [24:29] Well, I mean, the key characters haven't changed that much in, what, the 27 years of devolution. [24:36] And certainly, John Swinney and Nicola Sturgeon were in the original sort of 99 intake. And some [24:42] of the key characters like Jackie Bailey's, the Scottish deputy leader also came in that intake, [24:48] partly because the electoral system, there isn't that much of a change of key characters, [24:53] even though reform have joined the fray. But a lot of the big beasts are unchanged. And one of the [24:59] constants is John Swinney. It's sort of unlikely that he is leading the party that he led in the early [25:05] 2000s pretty unsuccessfully then, a bit more successfully now. But it also shows how, I suppose, [25:11] small and tight some of the relationships are, which makes the sort of fallout difficult. I think [25:17] one thing that Henry knows well from political scandals is that when... [25:22] So Henry's someone always lurking around political scandals? [25:25] Well, the key sort of headline moment may be passing, but it's about details, isn't it? About [25:35] what was really happening behind the scene. And Henry's smaller things that we don't know now [25:39] could cause problems for the First Minister. [25:42] And a much more mundane detail, which I can't believe you missed from your links binding various [25:47] protagonists in this, Jo, is that Pat McFadden, who was on Laura's programme today, and John Swinney, [25:54] 40 years ago worked together washing dishes in the same Mexican restaurant in Edinburgh. [25:58] What? I did not know that. [26:02] It's true. So the Scottish political set who are turning on each other in various configurations [26:10] over this have all known each other for a very, very long time. And it does just add to the sort [26:15] of sense of human drama to what is fundamentally a story about crime now. And it's not often we say [26:21] that about political scandal. No, it really isn't. And just to be [26:25] fair about this, it should also be said that you have cabinet ministers now and former conservative [26:30] cabinet ministers too, who will tell you stories about how they got drunk together when they were [26:34] at their student political conferences and all of those things. This is not just about Scottish [26:39] politicians all knowing each other terribly well. But as Scotland is a smaller country, there is [26:43] something particularly sort of tightly bound about all of this. But Henry, you've taught me a fun fact [26:49] about Pat McFadden and John Swinney. Excellent trivia. And we'll be sure to ask them all about [26:55] it next time. I wonder if any of either of them ever broke any dishes? [26:58] I don't know. I mean, I can't, I can't see. [27:00] You'll have to have him back on and hold him to account for his dish washing skills, come on. [27:05] But I love all of this. It's like last week, Alan Milburn told us he got sacked from his first [27:08] job as a paper, as a paper boy, because he couldn't get out of bed when he was 14 and a boy in [27:12] Benwell in Newcastle. And what is it about Mexican restaurants? Wasn't Granita a Mexican restaurant? [27:17] Or did that become a Mexican restaurant later? Granita, there was a famous Blair Brown [27:22] pact over who would be able to wear the crown. Of course, first Tony Blair and then Gordon Brown, [27:29] so cross for many years afterwards, because allegedly Tony Blair went back on the Granita [27:33] Pact. And wasn't it a sort of modern British restaurant? I think it became Mexican. Henry will [27:38] know this better. And then became something else. I think, yeah, I think it's, [27:43] well, firstly, the Arsenal parade today. But also, so we can ask Mikel Arteta to check it out [27:51] for us. But I think, I think it's been demolished or redeveloped, but it did become a Mexican restaurant. [27:56] You're right, Jo. There we are. Well, if anybody knows where, what it is now, do let us know. [28:00] Newscasters, you're always very good at getting in touch. Answers on a postcard. You can listen to [28:06] that full interview and it's all, it's 55 minutes. I think it is worth it. But ship Nicholas [28:11] certainly is an incredible communicator. So do listen to the full version if you'd like to, [28:15] or you can watch it on iPlayer or YouTube. And Henry, just give us a look ahead or Jo, [28:19] give us a look at what's coming in the next couple of days. [28:21] Well, the government, which is still led by Sir Keir Starmer. I think that's an important [28:26] clarification to make at the moment, given, you know, as you guys recounted yesterday, the sort [28:30] of essays being offered up by various pretenders to the throne and former occupants of the throne, [28:37] in the case of Tony Blair. So I think we'll see Keir Starmer trying to get back on the front foot. [28:41] Parliament hasn't been sitting for a week and there'll be, this is a government just in the [28:45] early stages of the second session of its parliament. So it's got all sorts of important [28:50] legislation. But I think we will be right back into the scene of one of Sir Keir Starmer's, [28:56] by his own admission, biggest political errors as prime minister, because at some point this week, [29:01] the government is going to publish loads and loads and loads of documents related to all the [29:07] communications that Peter Mandelson had with various cabinet ministers, various officials, [29:11] while he was UK ambassador to the US. And there is lots in there that people in government are making [29:17] no bones about. It's going to be very embarrassing for some of the people involved. [29:21] Oh dear. [29:22] It's going to be fascinating. [29:23] Well, we will see. There'll be plenty for Adam and everyone else to talk about on newscast in the [29:27] coming days. Joe, it's been lovely having you. [29:29] Thank you. Lovely to see you. Lovely to chat. [29:32] Very nice to have you while Paddy's off on his adventures. Thank you to everybody for being [29:36] with us this Sunday afternoon. And Adam will be here tomorrow, I believe. I'm not being told not [29:41] in my ear. Adam will be here tomorrow. Well, I'll just say that with great confidence. Adam Fleming will [29:45] be back here with you tomorrow after his adventures in Hay. And me and Paddy will be back with you next week [29:52] on next weekend's Issues of Newscast.