NC debate over data centers and nuclear power — Flashpoint

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: WCNC Charlotte this is flashpoint where power and politics collide and the tough questions get asked and answered welcome to this episode of flashpoint julie kay here with walker lawson ben's out of town again we have representative jordan lopez from east charlotte representative lopez thanks for joining us thank you for having me a lot's been going on since we last spoke i know we've talked a lot about data centers we've got that moratorium here in the [00:00:29] Jordan Lopez: city of charlotte and we have senate bill 730 which passed the house i want to talk to you about your vote no and your speech on the house floor about it why did you decide to go against this bill yeah i wanted to vote for this bill and i mentioned that in my remarks that the first half of the bill is a meaningful first step into creating statewide regulations around how data centers are built across the across north carolina that is something that has been sorely missing and it's what residents from communities all across the state have been calling for regardless of their party affiliation regardless of of of again wherever they live and so i wanted to vote for this bill it had meaningful uh protections such as site assessment requirements by local governments uh before approving data centers um it required the eq to develop water standards for uh data centers and how their cooling systems basically work it prohibited local incentives and we tried to go even further to prohibit and repeal state and state sales tax incentives for data centers, because these are billion-dollar investments made by these companies who build data centers. They can afford to build them with little to no help from local governments or the state government itself that is taking money out of our coffers that we could be using to reinvest in our community. So we wanted it to go a bit further. But again, I thought it was a good first step. However, there was a very dangerous energy policy that was attached to that bill. It was really two different parts. Part one was data center-focused. Part two was energy policy changes that were pretty significant and rushed through the legislative process. The most concerning part of that energy of part two was requiring the Utilities Commission, utility providers, basically, to keep baseload power generators online until such a time comes that we can replace them with nuclear power plants. Baseload, for those who don't know, who may not know, are coal power plants. And so coal power plants are not only dangerous for the environment, we know that they present risks to air quality and other environmental factors, but they're also very expensive to maintain. Utility providers in other states have already indicated that these are going to cost more money in the long term to keep open than it otherwise would to transition to renewable sources, and those costs always get passed down to the consumer. And so to call it the Ratepayer Protection Act was a very disingenuine title, and I could not, in good conscience, when my constituents are consistently letting me know that their utility bills are too high and for asking what can you do to make this better, I could not, in good conscience, give my vote to something that would not protect their power bills and, in turn, might make them go up. [00:02:59] Speaker 1: I know that Duke Energy is somewhat of a sore subject right now for a lot of people when we've got these two proposals on the table to raise rates even higher. So I imagine that this on top of that is not something constituents would be happy about. [00:03:14] Jordan Lopez: No, and it would not be. And so it was kind of a very big dilemma going into the vote of trying to figure out how I was going to vote, but I took a really hard decision of I'm going to stand on the side of my constituents who were, as I mentioned before, already strapped for higher utility bills. They're projected to go up even more over the next couple of years because Duke Energy is requesting an 18%, I believe, rate hike. It just, that felt like a double whammy that I couldn't get behind. However, again, happy that the data center protections or regulations were in there and look forward to explaining my vote more to my constituents directly, but in this instance, I could not give it to the data center part, or to the data center bill specifically because of part two. [00:03:59] Speaker 1: I think that is the complicated part of politics as a whole is we have these bills that are called these, you know, grand names. The Ratepayer Protection Act sounds fantastic for everybody, but a lot of times things are thrown in there that have different impacts. Have you had those conversations with, you know, in caucusing about what other Democrats were going to do? Because I know that's kind of a complicated double, double bill here. [00:04:25] Jordan Lopez: Yeah, no, of course it came up in conversations with my colleagues and even on the floor itself, we presented a motion, a very technical procedural motion on the floor that is rarely used to split the bill into two parts and let us vote on these two separate sections. So that way we can all do what we want to do on behalf of our constituents, and that is put protections in place on behalf of data centers, and then we can handle the energy policy in a separate bill. We tried to do that. That was a part of our strategy, and Republicans voted that motion down, and I think it's important to acknowledge that that type of tactic is commonly used, and it's done intentionally. They know that data center protections are a bipartisan issue, they know that we want to vote for that, and they also know that however they can side with Duke Energy or put Democrats in a difficult position, they're going to do it. And they did in this instance, and so I know that a lot of my colleagues had a difficult, or at least had back-and-forth conversations with each of us and probably amongst themselves and their constituents trying to figure out how to vote on this bill, because again, it was a complicated one-door approach. [00:05:30] Speaker 3: Representative Lopez, obviously data centers have been a big deal, a big topic of conversation, something that I've covered at Nauseam. We've seen communities like Kings Mountain as well as Boone adopt moratoriums, the city of Charlotte infamously the most recent one to also adopt moratorium, but I want to get your opinion and thoughts on the moratorium for the city of Charlotte. I know East Charlotte, the area that you represent, has a proposed data center that's caused a lot of controversy, but also I know something needs to be done. Residents are really wanting some clarity from local leaders, but I went and also toured a data center a couple weeks ago and asked them about moratoriums, the company that puts these together, and they basically said if there's moratoriums in places that these companies will go invest all of this money in other areas. So what are your thoughts on the moratorium for the city of Charlotte and kind of your thought process on hearing that about money potentially going elsewhere if there's moratoriums are in place? [00:06:25] Jordan Lopez: I think first and foremost, I'm happy that our city council didn't fall for or succumb to the threat of we're going to take our money elsewhere and instead prioritize the health and well-being and otherwise just the concerns of their constituents full stop. We don't have meaningful policy in place about data centers in the city of Charlotte, and I think a 150-day pause to explore what needs to be done to ensure that as we get more requests for them to be built across the city, that we have policies in place that protect neighborhoods, that protect streams. I'm thinking about the one in East Charlotte specifically is right on the floor, I said a few yards, it's probably a little bit more than just a few yards, but it's in very close proximity to Rita Creek. It's right in between two residential neighborhoods, and regardless of what companies are going to say, oh, this impact will be very limited, I think that there's probably more of a priority that needs to be put onto what do the residents who live directly in the area feel about such a thing being built there. I hope that over the next 150 days, probably a little less than that now since that was Monday, but over the next 150 days that our city staff are able to come up with some recommendations to city council as to where should these data centers be placed. Thinking about the debate, because I was listening, I was actually driving up to Raleigh when they were taking that vote. So it was mentioned that there's a downzoning provision in state law currently that would prohibit the local government from the city of Charlotte from essentially eliminating data center use from the current zoning or part that is now because of downzoning. And I'm hopeful that we can tackle that in this short session before it's over. We have a few weeks left to get back to what state law was prior to the Helene recovery bill that now zoning prohibition was put into for whatever reason. Because that may put the city in a weird position for how do we reclassify data centers if it would then cross that downzoning threshold. So there's work that needs to be done at both the state level and the city level. I hope that over the next 150 days that periodically, whether it's monthly, whether it's every, I don't even know, 60 days, that city staff can give a brief update to the council on where they are with the moratorium work. Just so that way, at the end of the 150 days, there's no surprise recommendations that come forth to the public. I think it should be a transparent process that includes not only the council members, but their constituents as well. [00:08:38] Speaker 1: I think that's interesting that you bring up that rezoning provision in another bill. It's the same kind of situation of kind of this double, triple bill that have so many things in it. What have those conversations been like within the General Assembly about maybe tackling that in this next couple weeks? [00:08:58] Jordan Lopez: Yeah, there was already a bill that passed the Senate this year that would essentially take state law back to what it was prior to that 2024, the December 2024 vote that established the downzoning prevention, the provision that restricted downzoning by local governments. It passed the Senate unanimously. When I talk to colleagues on both sides of the aisle in Raleigh, it's a concern that we're hearing from our local governments and from our constituents who are worried about development and who maybe want to slow down development in some ways by changing their zoning laws. But the moment you say, hey, instead of building or instead of legally being able to build four units of housing on an acre or on a lot, you can only build two. That is considered downzoning and local governments cannot rezone their or cannot reclassify their rezoning districts in that way right now. And so I'm hopeful the House will take it up. Again, it passed the Senate already on a unanimous bipartisan vote. I'm hopeful that we can bring it up in the Senate because I'm pretty positive it will pass on a bipartisan basis in the House as well. But right now we got to let politics play out. And we still don't even have a budget, which I'm sure is kind of a part of where some of these negotiations are. [00:10:01] Speaker 1: I was going to ask you about that. Any other things that are on the agenda in this General Assembly session? Of course, I mean, budget has been on there the whole time. Where are we at in terms of that from your perspective and anything else that's on your radar right now? [00:10:16] Jordan Lopez: Yeah, the budget is probably the number one thing on everybody's radar right now. We were expecting to get a first look and maybe even take votes on a budget next week. But there was a report that came out yesterday and the speaker confirmed it on the floor when one of my colleagues asked about it yesterday as we were wrapping up our business. It will likely not be next week either. And they're hopeful it will be the following week, which I believe is the week of the 23rd. And we will have to see. They have been saying we're closed for well over a year now. And we have still yet to see text of a budget. We've just got the concepts of what the budget will look like. But that is the biggest concern on everybody's radar. I'm also looking at the property tax moratorium that was just passed out of the House. I believe that was, well, we had our third reading on it yesterday. That's a concern for a lot of folks, especially in the counties that are specifically affected. I believe it's about 11 counties that are directly affected by the moratorium bill that was passed out of the legislature this week. That's worrying because a lot of counties are already finalizing their budgets. And so if you're saying now, after months of work by local staff, that, hey, instead of having this amount of money, because we're going to require you to use the reappraisal rates from three, six years ago, however long ago, you actually have this amount of money. So now you have to rethink what your budget looks like when they're due in just a few weeks here. I believe June 30th is when county budgets are going to be due. The governor now has the bill. I do not know what Governor's plan intends to do, whether he'll sign it or veto it or how that will shake out. But that is also something that I'm looking at because it affects our neighbors across the state. Here in Mecklenburg County, it does not affect us. We did not do reappraisals this year. But property taxes are currently another thing, as I'm sure you guys have been hearing, that the legislature is looking at as well. [00:11:59] Speaker 3: My next question for you falls back to a moratorium. Obviously, since we're seeing this discussion about data center moratoriums, as I said, in Boone, Kings Mountain, Charlotte, Salisbury, Rowan County, you look at all the different places that have had these conversations. [00:12:13] Speaker 1: Those are all the places that we've been sending Walker every week. [00:12:15] Speaker 3: These are all the towns that I've been going to and communities and hearing from people in my own family and community. A lot of people want a little bit more clarity as to what these data centers really mean. So I know Maine had previously passed a statewide moratorium. Could you see North Carolina going in that direction with all of these different communities kind of voicing concerns, almost echoing the same sentiment? Do you think North Carolina would do that, or what do you see? [00:12:45] Jordan Lopez: I, in the short term, do not force North Carolina doing a statewide moratorium. And it's not because I personally wouldn't support one, but it's because there are counties, there are a number of counties who are voicing their support for moratoriums and who want us to slow down. But there are also counties that are welcoming this investment because they do see it as an investment. They may have declining property tax revenues, and they know that there are opportunities there to bolster their budgets by bringing in these data centers. And I think that's a part of the conversation that needs to be had at the state level is, and also with the data center developer community in and of itself, go where you're wanted. You know, if they're, just because there is space in a local, in a locality, it doesn't necessarily mean you have to drop a data center there because there is likely somewhere else in North Carolina that will welcome you with open arms. It may not be near residential neighborhoods. It may be in a community that is looking for ways to increase their revenue. I mean, these kinds of conversations need to be happening in a, in a, from a much broader lens than what they seem to be happening in now. And so I do not think that we'll be seeing a statewide moratorium in North Carolina. I would love to have a conversation just so that way we can even take a step back to Senate Bill 730 and say, where does Senate Bill 730, the part one that does data center regulation, where does it fall short? Where could we do more at, and that would give us more time to, to get a perfect policy in place or a more perfect policy in place, um, before more data centers are built across North Carolina. [00:14:08] Speaker 1: And before we let you go, I just want, for a point of clarity where Senate Bill 730 is now, I know it went back to the Senate. Is it back in committee now? Is that where we're at? [00:14:16] Jordan Lopez: I, ooh, off the top of my head, I cannot remember if it, it, it might be in conference, I believe we made changes to it in the house, which would send it to conference committee, um, and that is where the final details will have to be worked out, uh, after a conference report is created, no amendments can be offered on the floor, it kind of, it, it's kind of an, it is what it is situation once it comes out of conference committee. [00:14:38] Speaker 1: I believe that is where Senate Bill 730 is currently representative Jordan Lopez always appreciate you coming on here and down the many, many things going on at the moment. [00:14:47] Jordan Lopez: Thanks for joining us. We appreciate it. Oh, thank you, Julie. Thank you, Walker, for having me. I appreciate you. [00:14:52] Speaker 1: All right. We're going to take a quick break. Walker, if you want to press that big red button. Welcome back to Flashpoint. We're going to get back to discussing that interview with Representative Lopez in just a second. But of course, as we talked about, Charlotte City Council had a lot going on this past time. [00:15:08] Speaker 3: Busy week. It's been a busy week for the last few weeks. [00:15:11] Speaker 1: Walker has had to actually come to council. That's not his shift. That's usually mine, but there's been so much to do. [00:15:16] Speaker 3: I mean, I love the chambers. [00:15:18] Speaker 1: I think that you may have to come back next week, too. I'm so sorry. That's all right. We'll discuss after that. Um, but we did have an interview, uh, Ben and Lisa on the morning show with Dante Anderson, one of the council members, about all sorts of things. The data center moratorium, of course, the mayoral appointments. That's what we're really looking at this coming week and the week after that, because we've got all those applications in now. Uh, and so she breaks down the moratorium and what she's looking for when it comes to an interim mayor. [00:15:44] Speaker 4: Charlotte city council member representative Dante Anderson joins us this morning. Uh, council member, thanks for waking up and joining us. We appreciate it. Of course. Thank you for having me a few big votes from last night. We want to talk about. But first, let's begin with data centers. Um, what does this? What does this five months? What does this bias? [00:16:04] Speaker 5: Well, it buys us some time to try to figure out what is really the space that we have to operate locally as it relates to what our general assembly has established statewide. A couple of things to understand here. We have, uh, Senate bill 730, which is active right now in a general assembly. And then of course we have Senate bill, uh, 382, which regards to downgrading. And so as the, as the state is trying to figure out how do they handle this proliferation of data centers that gives us a little bit of time to let them figure it out. But then we also can figure out what are the nuanced approach that we can take locally. [00:16:50] Speaker 6: So this morning we've been reporting that Charlotte has more than a third of the data centers that are in North Carolina. We know a lot of folks don't necessarily love the data centers, but they do love the technology. How do you find the fair and maybe an equitable way to build these centers? [00:17:08] Speaker 5: Yes, that's a great point. And you know, the other point to add to that is that data centers have been around in Charlotte specifically since 1990. We have a list of data centers that are relatively large enterprise data centers that have been around for decades. And so this isn't a new idea. It's more about these more hyper scale data centers and where they can reside. But it would make sense, wouldn't it? That data centers would be proximate to the business nucleus of the state of the great state of North Carolina. So we are a banking capital. We're the second largest banking capital of the state. We are a growing health tech. We are a growing just tech in general hub here, and we're seeing other opportunities grow here in Charlotte that rely on the backbone of technology. So I'm not surprised that there are data centers proximate to where we live here. [00:18:10] Speaker 4: Yeah, we can't have this thriving business community and tech and not have data centers to support it. Skipping around just briefly, you all also passed a budget last night. There's, I think, a two cent property tax increase, which roughly comes up between five and six dollars a month for the average homeowner. Knowing that increasing taxes is never a popular thing. What does that get us, though? [00:18:36] Speaker 5: Well, I always say when you look at a budget, it should reflect the community's priority. And this budget here does exactly that with a large emphasis on public safety as we are a growing city, one of the fastest growing cities in the country. Now, the city of Charlotte does not lean on raising taxes too often. And so this is the first tax rate hike in the last five years. So we're great stewards of the taxpayers dollars. But as we are booming, we have to make sure that public safety is as well financed as well as ensuring that our systems and in our programs and our services that we provide are well financed as well with the growing population. So I'm never the first one to raise my hand for a tax rate. I live right here within the confines of the city of Charlotte, but this is one within the last five years. I think that makes sense and invest in the areas that all Charlotte residents care about. [00:19:43] Speaker 6: Well, you mentioned public safety. I know that you chair the safety committee within the council and there was some discussion last night, but no final decision about red light cameras. Your thoughts on that? [00:19:53] Speaker 5: Well, really good discussion last night on red light cameras. I think we're going to move forward. I hope that council will go ahead and advance that in the next business meeting where it will be on the agenda. The, the, the, the, the, the meat of it is 10 intersections of our high injury networks will be a part of a year long pilot program. And we can see through our peer cities and others who have implemented this, that it will produce dividends as it relates to a reduction in crashes and fatal and fatalities. And so that's what we need to invest in. We already have the line added budget for it, so there won't be any, any idea around where we need to find the money. It's just a matter of will the program produce dividends over 12 months cycle. I hope it will. We'll see. We'll keep our eyes on the data and if it does, we can advance it to the other. 29 intersections of that high injury network. Yeah. [00:20:59] Speaker 4: Will it make the streets safer? That's really what it comes down to more than anything. A final question. The application deadline for interim mayor this afternoon, 5:00 PM. The list has more than 70 names. Any names on the list stick out to you? [00:21:11] Speaker 5: You know, there are one or two that stick out to me. But as I have said in the past, I'm going to honor this process, both as a reviewer and as an applicant in the process in years past. It's an arduous process. It's tedious. And I'm going to honor every single applicant that has taken the time to put in an application and will come down and speak to us. That's an important element of this as well. You have to come down and speak to counsel and state your case as to why you feel you're the right candidate to serve as interim mayor. So I'll pay attention to it. But more to come on that. I'm happy that there is some interest in serving in the interim mayor of the great city of Charlotte. [00:21:58] Speaker 6: Today is the deadline to ask you. Last time we spoke, I'll ask again. Any chance you're going to add your name to the list of applicants? [00:22:05] Speaker 5: You know what? I do not have the time in my calendar to fill out an application today. I will continue to serve our great city. And I hope that we have an interim mayor who can galvanize the council and help us move forward on so many important topics as we grow and advance in becoming a world-class city. [00:22:27] Speaker 4: Charlotte City Councilmember Dante Anderson. Councilmember, thanks for joining us. We appreciate it. [00:22:32] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:22:33] Speaker 1: That was Ben and Lisa on The Morning Show talking to Dante Anderson this week. Councilmember, about that moratorium. I'm, of course, really looking at this mayoral appointment process. That public hearing is going to be Monday. And then after that, the next Monday is when they're expected to vote. Mind you, this is not the expedited process. This was actually the standard process they chose. I know. [00:22:55] Speaker 3: It is, yeah. I'm looking at the calendar. I'm like, oh, wait. [00:22:58] Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. Yeah, we're coming up quick on this though. Even though this was the regular process that they decided on as opposed to going quicker. 114 applicants. So I imagine right now that's probably what council members are doing is reading through those. Yeah. I mean, she said anyone who takes the time to submit this application deserves our attention. [00:23:17] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:23:18] Speaker 1: Good luck, everybody. [00:23:20] Speaker 3: I know. And it's interesting. I think, like for me, I only noticed a couple names. Of course, Jennifer Roberts being a former mayor. So it'll be interesting to see kind of which direction they decide to take. Yeah. Obviously, you have Mitchell, James Mitchell as well. Yeah. Only current council member. Only current council member. So it'll be interesting to see if they go with people that are familiar somewhat with the role or if they try something new. Yeah, absolutely. [00:23:45] Speaker 1: And also multiple current and past elected officials too. State Senator on that list as well from Mecklenburg County. And just some big names in, you know, the industry world here in Charlotte that I think might stick out. It'll be interesting to see which way they go. It'll be interesting to see how long that public hearing is on Monday. I'm sure we'll both see. [00:24:03] Speaker 3: Long. [00:24:04] Speaker 1: Lengthy. Ben is out of town. Again. [00:24:07] Speaker 3: Kidding. [00:24:08] Speaker 1: We want his PTO policy. We're very jealous. He's out of town. But we'd like to do, to end the episodes, Walkers, talk about what we learned. Yes. I really liked your insight into, as someone who has to go see all these data center sites, asking him about the potential for a moratorium statewide. It's not something I had considered. I thought that was really interesting. Yeah. [00:24:27] Speaker 3: It's interesting because I think that when we look in the broad scheme, there are a lot of these different communities that are voicing concern in wanting moratoriums. So that's why I wanted to ask because you're hearing it from different areas. And I think that people get a little confused when they hear moratorium. They think that means that a city or town specifically doesn't want it. But that's not the case with the city of Charlotte. You have them just wanting to fine tune policy to make sure that every decision they're making is correct. So I'd love to hear, you know, that he thinks that that could be a conversation, but obviously it wouldn't be something that now North Carolina looks to be considering at the moment. [00:25:05] Speaker 1: Not on the plate right now. [00:25:06] Speaker 3: Not on the plate right now. There's a lot of other stuff. And I think that was interesting because I think a lot of people get confused with moratorium. They think that means that the state wouldn't want it as a whole. I think it just is a pause for better policy is what some other local communities have said. [00:25:20] Speaker 1: Moratorium is the correct word, but it does sound a lot scarier than pause. [00:25:23] Speaker 3: It does. Yes. Like it's just taking taking a breath and just taking a moment. A lot of communities that for housing projects and stuff like that, they take a pause and try to see how they can better evaluate their policies. [00:25:34] Speaker 1: So what did you learn Walker? [00:25:36] Speaker 3: Honestly, that is what I learned. I think it's good. I learned where he thinks the state stands. I mean, we've obviously seen these big data center build outs that have been mentioned by Amazon and other things across the state. But then you also have communities pushing back. And it's interesting to hear from him because I think we hear a lot of communities pushing back. But it's interesting to hear him say that there are communities welcoming them. Yeah. [00:25:58] Speaker 1: And it is, I think, not to say I learned another thing, but I did. I think it was interesting to hear about the, it's the politics of it too. It's literally the politics of data centers and the politics of development, even in your local community, is sometimes city council cannot do what you're asking about. Correct. Because of some weird state statute or provision in a different bill that had nothing to do with it. Or, you know, this, his problem with this Ratepayer Protection Act is kind of a separate entity in the bill as opposed to what most people see the bill as. And so it, that is, this is why people hate politics. [00:26:33] Speaker 3: Yeah. It gets so confusing because even when at city council on Monday night, when JD was trying to convey that message to people, you know, there, this is state policy. You've got to also go to your elected officials at the General Assembly about how these data centers are sliding through. Cause the city of Charlotte really can only do so much if other policies been made. So. Absolutely. [00:26:55] Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, it gives us a lot to pitch in the morning. It sure does. Walker and I have been very busy. [00:27:00] Speaker 3: Very busy. [00:27:01] Speaker 1: But Representative Jordan Lopez, great interview. Really glad to have him on. Walker, thank you for joining us. [00:27:05] Speaker 3: Of course. Thanks for letting me hop in again. Thanks for watching.