Mick Jagger Can’t Name One Good Thing About Getting Older — The Interview

[0:00] What on earth are we going to talk about for 40 minutes? [0:03] I have no idea. [0:05] Nothing. [0:06] The weather. [0:06] The weather. We'll start off with the weather. [0:08] I'm David Marchese, and today I'm in a hotel in Manhattan to interview Mick Jagger. [0:17] Mick Jagger truly needs no introduction. [0:20] He's the legendary frontman of the Rolling Stones, [0:22] who are releasing a new album called Foreign Tongues. [0:26] I've been a fan of the Stones since 1994, when I saw them on their Voodoo Lounge tour. [0:32] It was my first ever rock concert, and it left a huge impression. [0:36] Since then, I've listened to just about every song the band has released, [0:40] from undeniable classics like My Favorite, You Can't Always Get What You Want, [0:44] to more obscure tracks like Sway. [0:49] And I've always wondered, what's Mick Jagger really like? [0:55] Here's my conversation with Mick Jagger. [0:57] Mick. [0:59] Hi, David. [1:00] Thank you for taking the time to speak with me today. [1:02] That's all right. [1:03] I have a bunch of questions about the new album. [1:05] Okay. [1:06] But I'd like to start with a question that comes from a place of pure personal curiosity. [1:11] Okay. [1:11] So, one of my all-time favorite of your songs is Sway from Sticky Fingers. [1:17] And I always wondered about the first line of that song, okay? [1:21] The lyrics, which are, [1:22] Did you ever wake up to find a day that broke up your mind, [1:28] destroyed your notion of circular time? [1:31] I have not. [1:32] Have you? [1:34] No. [1:34] So, there's a question. [1:36] Do you remember where that line came from? [1:40] No, I just made it up at the moment. [1:42] I was, we were waiting for Keith to turn up for the session. [1:46] Yeah. [1:46] He was late. [1:47] And then Mick Taylor and I were there, and Charlie and Bill, and we just, [1:51] I said, oh, let me try this. [1:52] And I was just making it up as I go along. [1:54] Oh. [1:54] So, that's why it's a bit random. [1:57] Yeah. [1:57] But it makes sense that waiting for Keith Richards would destroy your notion of circular time. [2:01] It's a good time, yeah. [2:01] I thought maybe it was a more philosophical question. [2:04] You could, maybe I really, no, maybe I went back afterwards and spruced it up a bit. [2:10] Well, thank you for solving that mystery. [2:11] Okay. [2:12] I appreciate it. [2:13] So, the new album. [2:14] Yeah. [2:15] So, it's coming just maybe two and a half years after Hackney Diamond's the last one? [2:20] We did it last year now, and we did it last, this time last year, more or less. [2:27] But the time span between Hackney Diamond's and the previous album of original material [2:32] was 18 years. [2:33] Yeah, 18 years, yeah. [2:34] This is quick. [2:35] Why did it come together so quickly? [2:37] Well, I think we realized that we could, you know, we had a different method of making [2:44] records, really. [2:45] I mean, we've been just not being very lackadaisical, and we weren't really getting down to it. [2:53] And so, when we got Andy Watt on board, you know, we decided that, I said, there's a deadline. [3:00] You know, we used to always have deadlines, because we had to go on tour with the record, [3:03] and the tour starts in March of the record hour, you know. [3:05] I said, the Hackney Diamond's, I said, the deadline is Valentine's Day. [3:09] Are you all going to remember that? [3:11] So, you know, it's no excuses. [3:12] It was, you thought it was March, it's Valentine's Day, and we almost made it. [3:16] Over four weeks, we recorded probably, I don't know, 14, 15 songs. [3:20] I mean, a lot of stuff, the way I do things, some of the songs that I write, I mean, I demo [3:28] a lot of them first. [3:30] So, I go in with a friend of mine who plays with a band, Matt Clifford. [3:35] We demo a lot of the songs that I write. [3:38] I demo them, and I can see, ah, they could go here, they could go there, they could be this [3:42] groove, they could be that groove, and then, so a lot of my version of what I think the [3:48] song sounds like is already in my head. [3:51] Everything else you layer on top of that, and you might, yeah, you might say, that bass [3:55] is great on it, I don't want to change anything, or I just want to change just the chorus, [3:59] or I just want to change this, or I want to keep the rhythm guitar, or I don't want to [4:02] keep the rhythm guitar, I'll do it again, you know. [4:06] It's complex. [4:07] So, some of the songs on the new album are, I hear them as, you know, they're relationship [4:13] songs. [4:14] Yes. [4:14] Songs of regret or insecurity. [4:16] And it's interesting for me to hear Mick Jagger singing those songs at your age, and think [4:26] about how, you know, they land differently than if you were singing them at 42 or 32. [4:33] And I want to know, from your perspective, like, artistically and emotionally, what are [4:40] the ways that you can inhabit a song now that are different from how you used to inhabit songs? [4:46] Yeah, it, it, I don't, well, first of all, I don't really think about it very much. [4:51] So, you know, in, songwriting's about imagination, and, you know, it's not all based on true experiences. [5:00] But you've got to play the character of the song. [5:01] Characters, but the character singing the song is, it's a different character for me. [5:07] So, when I'm singing Mr. Charm, it's obviously a joke character, you know, and it's supposed [5:15] to be taken with a sense of humor. [5:17] And, of course, some of the incidents in the verses did happen, and I can draw my own experiences [5:23] of talking to women in relationships. [5:27] But, I mean, the whole thing of it's not supposed to be taken seriously. [5:30] You don't really think you're Mr. Charm, you know, not really. [5:35] But then you might have another song, which is more, more heartfelt, you know, with more, [5:42] not so much humor and, um, back in your life, which is a bit more of a kind of like, it's [5:49] a, it's a classic theme, you know, you meet a woman and then she never calls you back. [5:56] You know, you have a great time and she never calls you back. [5:57] Has that happened to you a lot? [5:58] Of course, it's happened to me. [6:00] Of course, it's happened to me. [6:01] So, I can draw on that. [6:02] I'm not saying it happened yesterday, but you can draw on that, on that, on that experience [6:07] when it did happen to you, when maybe it happened to me when I was 40, you know, but I can still [6:10] write about it now. [6:12] Writing's about imagination, you know, it's not only about personal experience. [6:17] So, it's a mixture of personal experience. [6:18] Yeah. [6:19] And a mixture of imagination. [6:21] You know, I'm, I'm, I want to maybe put the question in slightly different terms. [6:25] You know, I, there's a, a movie performance of yours that I love when, uh, Man from Elysian [6:30] Fields. [6:31] Oh, yeah. [6:31] Elysian Fields is an escort service. [6:34] We tend to the wounds of lonely women in need of emotional, as well as spiritual solace. [6:39] You know, you play sort of like a middle-aged, uh, you know, he runs an escort service for [6:46] women, it's kind of like a, but that, that performance has a lot of real feelings of [6:51] regret in it. [6:53] Yeah. [6:53] And I assume that you wouldn't have been able to give a performance like that earlier in [6:58] your life in the, in the same, in the same way that it would make no sense for you to [7:01] sing some girls now. [7:02] No, no, exactly. [7:03] But so are, are there things that you can do in a song or did on this album that you think, [7:09] oh, I, I wasn't capable of giving, of inhabiting that lyric? [7:13] That's a good question. [7:14] I mean, it requires a lot of thought to give a good answer because, you know, I can't [7:21] really, it's hard for me to think of, I'm trying to think of actual concrete examples [7:25] of the songs on the record, you know? [7:27] Um, I mean, you, I mean, I think quite a lot of it, you could say that, that I wouldn't [7:39] have done, I wouldn't have written any of these songs when I was 30, maybe. [7:42] I mean, honestly, I probably wouldn't have done. [7:45] Um, and then I've also got into this habit of doing songs that, that are about personal [7:51] relationships. [7:51] And then I throw a verse about politics in there, you know, but I think that's a trick, [7:57] you know, that I've, that I've learned from other songwriters or I've listened to others [8:03] because nobody wants to hear a whole song about politics or I put politics, social comment, [8:11] you know, of any kind, it came in politics or something else, like a song, like, um, the [8:15] blues song, like rough and twisted. [8:17] It's really just like, just stream of consciousness. [8:22] Honestly, it, it, it's, you, you are, you talk about a woman and everything, but it's, and [8:26] then you throw in this stuff is obviously about political and it's obviously, you know, the [8:30] club was called conspiracy, you know, all they wanted was tyranny. [8:34] So you find yourself using these tricks. [8:37] Did you ever see the John Mulaney special where the comedian John Mulaney, where he does [8:44] a bit about working with you on Saturday night live? [8:47] Did you ever see that? [8:48] No, I never saw that. [8:49] So he, he has this bit where he's talking about working with famous people on the show [8:53] and specifically about working with you and people would ask him, I'm, I'm paraphrasing, [8:59] but people would ask him like, is Mick Jagger nice? [9:01] Yeah. [9:02] And he says, of course, Mick Jagger is not nice or he's nice for the version of the life [9:06] that Mick Jagger has led. [9:08] And he's, he points out that you play to stadiums of people screaming for you for 50 plus years. [9:15] That's got to change you as a person. [9:17] If you do that for 50 years, you're never again going to be like, um, does anyone have [9:20] a laptop charger I could borrow? [9:23] Can you articulate how that's changed you as a person? [9:26] I think, well, obviously you, it's not normal by, it's not like most people's lives. [9:36] No, no, it's not. [9:37] It's not. [9:38] Uh, but, but yeah, it does affect you. [9:41] Um, you can become disassociated, um, from other people. [9:47] Other people. [9:48] Yeah. [9:49] And, and a lot of people in show business only hang around with people in show business. [9:53] Um, uh, because, because they got something in common, you know, they, because they can [9:58] relate to each other, you know, and, and, and the, you get disassociated from what, what [10:06] people might call real life. [10:08] Do you think you have? [10:09] Oh yeah. [10:10] Yeah. [10:11] Definitely. [10:12] Definitely. [10:13] And then you can, uh, I mean, you, you, you can fight, you do fight against it. [10:17] It's a conscious effort. [10:18] It, it takes conscious effort to be, fight against, um, being disassociated. [10:23] What do you do to fight against it? [10:25] Well, it's quite easy, really. [10:28] I mean, you just, you just, you just go out and walk on the street on your own and go and [10:34] do normal things and go and buy the New York times. [10:38] Oh, you know, and, but nevertheless, that that's only temporary. [10:43] So, cause you're, I think you're psychologically, your, your actual state of mind is, is permanently [10:52] damaged by this or, or affected. [10:55] Or, I mean, I think, I think when you're in your, uh, late twenties and early thirties, [11:01] is a very tough time for people in this business. [11:04] Cause you, because it's a big ego trip, basically. [11:07] I mean, it's a huge, you, you have to have a huge ego to do this. [11:11] If you don't, you have lots of people that do this that don't have huge egos have huge [11:16] problems because they have to manufacture a completely different. [11:20] Of course, my personality on stage is not my, I have a friend who, who says, you know, [11:25] it's the standing joke is that I behave at a dinner party like I behave on stage. [11:30] So was that friend, right? [11:32] Yeah. [11:33] We make jokes about it, you know, because it's absurd what you do on stage. [11:37] I mean, of course I'm not really like my stage persona, a Jimmy Fallon, which I'm just about [11:41] to go and do. [11:42] He, he thinks he's doing me when he does me, but it's, it's completely such a, an exaggerated [11:49] version of me, but it works for him. [11:51] You know, his version of me, but I mean, to me, the person to be like that all the time, [12:04] this overbearing shouting per ego tripping person is the, it's good. [12:10] Of course you're not really like that. [12:13] But I think when you're in your late twenties and early thirties, you, you can be like that [12:19] all the time. [12:20] And there are people in show businesses that never switch off. [12:23] A lot of them are comedians and comedians. [12:26] Sometimes they can't, they can't switch off. [12:28] They can't stop making jokes or they get depressed. [12:32] But I mean, it's a bit of a sweeping statement. [12:35] Did you have to learn to switch off? [12:37] Yeah. [12:38] I think it comes with age. [12:40] It's like, if you do a movie, you do a character, right? [12:42] So, so if you're a method action, you do this character, you've heard all these stories [12:47] about method actors. [12:48] They take it to the absolute extreme. [12:50] So they like the character all the time. [12:52] And then after the moves over, they're still in the character for a long time. [12:56] It takes, takes a long time to laugh off the character. [13:00] So which character do you go back to? [13:03] What was the character that you're going to retrieve? [13:06] Is he, is he always going to carry some of that character in his true character? [13:13] Whatever that is. [13:14] So this is, this is, I think the show business like dichotomy. [13:21] And it's like a, it's something you learn to live with. [13:25] And you always hope, of course, it isn't true. [13:28] They always hope that you're a normal, so-called normal person underneath. [13:32] Yeah. [13:33] It's nice to have the perks though. [13:34] The perks are nice. [13:35] Yeah. [13:36] The perks, it's about being these several characters. [13:38] Yeah. [13:39] You know, you're the character that plays the theater. [13:41] You're the character that does the interview. [13:43] You're the character that goes in on the stadium. [13:45] You're the character in this recording studio. [13:47] You're the character writing the song, not this character I'll write. [13:51] Now I'll be another character. [13:52] Yeah. [13:53] I'll write a song. [13:54] Then I'm going to be this character and I got wounded love. [13:57] Now I'm going to be like, fuck you. [13:59] You know? [14:00] Do you ever let the world see the person underneath the characters? [14:04] I'm not sure. [14:05] Probably. [14:06] It's all there. [14:07] Songs are pretty direct in a way, as a method of communication. [14:14] They're relatively direct compared to say a movie where you need like a lot of, you know, [14:19] you've got someone writing a script and you're changing the script and you want to change your [14:23] lines and you've got 200 people and then it's all edited and chopped up in bits. [14:28] Records are relatively simple compared to that. [14:31] There are a handful of political lines sprinkled throughout the album. [14:38] There's, you know, you sing about scuttling billionaires scrambling to their bolt holes in the sky, [14:43] about dirty rat autocrats, rubber stamping judges. [14:46] Yes. [14:47] And I actually find it heartening to know that Mick Jagger sees the same problems out in the world that the rest of us do. [14:55] So can you just tell me more about why you felt the impulse to include those kinds of lyrics? [15:03] What are you seeing when you look around the world? [15:04] Well, I mean, it's not the first time I've done songs with social comment. [15:10] Mm-hmm. [15:11] I like doing it, but in small doses. [15:13] Let's put it like that. [15:14] I mean, who does it in huge doses? [15:17] Hardly anybody in pop, it's pop music, you know? [15:20] I mean, ringing hollow is more or less. [15:24] Yes. [15:25] Completely social comment. [15:27] Right. [15:28] So, but, but even then, so I had to, I had two songs that were on more or less the same subject, [15:34] which is my love of America, you know? [15:36] And what's gone wrong? [15:37] I know. [15:38] Ringing hollow is a lament about the state of the country. [15:40] But it's a love song, but it's, it's a lament. [15:43] And it's my, my, it's about, and all, it's about my own experiences, which are long and varied [15:49] and, and encompass lots of different places in America. [15:53] And not just being in New York and being in, living in the upper west side, you know, [15:58] that, you know, I've got, I've spent a lot of time in America in places that Americans have never, [16:02] ever been nor were ever likely to go to, you know, because they don't, not in our world living in New York. [16:09] Well, we're talking at, we're talking now living in LA or Chicago, but I've spent a lot of time in these weird places. [16:17] Like what? [16:18] Well, you know, just on touring, you see everything. [16:20] Like where? [16:21] You see everything. [16:22] You, you know, how many people from New York, you know, that we sit around really go to Cleveland very often, you know? [16:27] And then you're there for five days. [16:29] It's not very long, but you can see quite a lot. [16:32] If you go out every day, you see different sides of it. [16:35] No, I'm not saying, I mean, I enjoy it. [16:37] You know, other wouldn't go out. [16:39] Um, I mean, New Orleans people, I know people go to New Orleans and it's a tourist place, but I mean, you find things there. [16:47] And then you, you, you find fantastic music scene and it's a unique town of, in the United States, completely unique. [16:55] Um, does not allow any other town. [16:57] It's not, it's not, you know, so you explore these places and you have a love of the country and everything. [17:05] So in ring hollow, so, uh, I had another song, but the other song I thought was too down and I, I rejected it and worked on ring hollow instead. [17:14] So, so it's really a love song to Americans, you know, uh, fell madly in love with you before we ever met. [17:24] So before I ever went to America, I was in love with America, like a lot of European, uh, teenagers, you know, were, you know, see the movies and all this. [17:33] So it's all about that. [17:34] And then, so then it talks about, you know, then, then it goes into the America of now and, you know, how can we, you know, ascertain what's going on? [17:46] What's the last, the last line line of the song, right? [17:48] I can't remember. [17:49] I'm going to buy a brand new hat. [17:51] Brand new hat. [17:52] What's that reference to? [17:54] Something good is going to happen, I think. [17:57] That's what it means. [17:58] Yeah. [17:59] Uh, uh, I heard that as, as like a, a passive aggressive. [18:03] Maybe. [18:04] Yeah. [18:05] Maybe. [18:06] But you know who the one person that you, that is named, uh, by their actual name on the album. [18:12] I might be missing one. [18:13] Do you know the one? [18:14] There's one, uh, Elon Musk. [18:16] Elon Musk. [18:17] Yeah. [18:18] Mad mogul. [18:19] Mr. Musk. [18:20] Yeah. [18:21] What's your impression of him? [18:22] I've never met him. [18:23] So I don't really, I mean, he's obviously hugely successful. [18:26] And you know, he's someone who, who the term rock star gets applied to sometimes. [18:31] Yeah. [18:32] And now it's become kind of a common trope where these, uh, tech, uh, entrepreneurs are called, [18:37] you know, rock stars. [18:38] And what, what does an actual rock star think of the way that that term has now become applied [18:47] to anybody who has sort of the patina of iconoclasm? [18:50] It's kind of, it's kind of weird because it's applied to all kinds of people. [18:53] Yes. [18:54] It's just tech people. [18:55] It's become a phrase that's thrown around for any, any, in any form of, uh, success, [19:01] you know, that, or it just, I think it just means that you're just out there and, you know, [19:07] in front of thousands of people and you're a huge success. [19:10] I mean, that's what it means. [19:11] I mean, to be called that, I think it's a big compliment to be called that. [19:14] It's also a compliment to rock stars to use that actual phrase. [19:16] Is it? [19:17] I think it devalues rock stars. [19:18] It devalues it, but it also, it bigs it up as well, you know? [19:21] Yeah. [19:22] So, yeah. [19:23] Yeah. [19:24] Wait, I want to ask something that's, uh, sort of related to, um, kind of what you were [19:31] talking, what we were talking about earlier, the, the, how people understand like the persona [19:37] of, of Mick Jagger. [19:38] And, and my question is to do with sort of how you understand your relationship with your [19:46] audience. [19:47] This actually maybe speaks to the politics stuff in a, in a way too, because, uh, and let [19:51] me give two counter examples. [19:52] Yeah. [19:53] To sort of triangulate the question. [19:54] Okay. [19:55] So, so on one poll, we have somebody like Bob Dylan. [19:58] Yeah. [19:59] If you go see him live, he's great. [20:01] It almost feels like the crowd is incidental. [20:04] Like he were, he's going to be doing whatever he's doing, whether or not people showed up [20:08] or, or not. [20:09] On the other end of the spectrum, you have somebody like a Bruce Springsteen who, who [20:13] clearly sees his job as engaging in a meaningful back and forth with, with his audience. [20:20] It means something different to him. [20:22] Yeah. [20:23] What does your relationship to the audience mean to you? [20:26] What do they represent all those people out there? [20:29] Well, it, well, first of all, it depends where you are and what kind of event it is. [20:37] Like the, the, the one, the New Orleans event, that's a festival. [20:42] They didn't come to see you necessarily. [20:44] You know, they, they, they bought their tickets before they knew you were coming. [20:47] Right. [20:48] If you play the New Orleans jazz festival. [20:50] You know, we, we played that. [20:51] Then we do summer in the park in London. [20:54] You buy those tickets, you, Glastonbury, you buy those tickets because you like that festival. [20:59] You always think something's good is going to happen and you don't know. [21:01] So they're not necessarily coming to see, they're not your biggest fans necessarily. [21:07] I'm not saying that they hate you. [21:09] Otherwise it probably wouldn't be there. [21:10] There's different levels of these kinds of people and you have to treat them in a slightly [21:15] different way. [21:16] Well, my, the bottom line of my thing is really is that I, my, my job in the, in the live music [21:27] world is, is just those people that come is to make, having the best time they possibly [21:34] can. [21:35] And, and for two hours or whatever it is to forget all their problems and problems of the [21:41] world and their mortgages and their whatever. [21:44] And, and, and, and if they have problems or just, just to give them, they can have just [21:49] the best time. [21:50] It was, it's similar going to a sports event really, because you, you, you, you, everything [21:56] else is shout out. [21:57] You're just watching that. [21:58] Who's going to win? [21:59] You know, you're not worrying about everything else. [22:00] You know, you know, those things are out of your mind. [22:02] I know you're still on that. [22:03] You're on the phone and everything when I, you know, Oh, my little Danny is like hurt [22:09] his tooth. [22:10] But you know, I know you can still have that. [22:12] I know you can still have that, but in the old days you never had that really. [22:17] So, so, so my, that's my job. [22:21] So is to make them have the best time they possibly have. [22:24] And some audiences want to go completely nuts, you know, and, and you, so then you encourage [22:30] them to go more nuts and say, you can play to some places in the world is different. [22:34] You know, you, you play in Finland. [22:36] It's not the same as playing in Argentina. [22:38] You know, there's a different, they don't, they don't want to go completely so nuts. [22:43] Maybe they do. [22:44] I'm just using us as possibles. [22:47] But so you, you don't want to be trying to turn them up into like, get frustrated that [22:53] they're not being demonstrative or you don't think they're having a good time. [22:56] But cause they might be quite relatively calm. [22:59] They might be relatively, you know, they, they're having a good time in there. [23:03] I always say to everyone else that having a good time in their own way. [23:07] And there's, but as you go to another place and they go and completely ape shit, you know? [23:13] So, so, so, and your job is to make them more ape shit. [23:16] That's, I don't want to go ape shit. [23:17] Well, let's go ape shit, you know? [23:18] So. [23:19] I want to dig a little deeper on that question. [23:20] Yeah. [23:21] So you're, you're, you're talking about what your job is. [23:24] Yeah. [23:25] Is to make people have a good time to make, you know, they want to leave the concert feeling like it was worth it. [23:31] And they can forget their job. [23:32] Yeah. [23:33] And you don't want to lecture them. [23:34] You don't want to lecture them. [23:35] But my question is actually about whether, like what meaning the job has to you. [23:41] Like I, I have a job that has a basic description. [23:44] It's very different than yours. [23:45] Yeah. [23:46] But my job actually, you know, it means something to me. [23:48] And, and when it's working best, it allows me to satisfy curiosity I have about the world, meet people I wouldn't normally meet. [23:55] Yeah. [23:56] Ask questions of people that I would never get a chance to ask and, and learn things that help, you know, that I, that I find are valuable to me as a person. [24:02] Do, do you, like what's Mick Jagger's version of that? [24:06] Am I being naive and Pollyanna-ish to think that maybe there is one? [24:11] I have thought about this. [24:13] Yeah. [24:14] I mean, obviously thought about it. [24:15] At the beginning of my career, of course, didn't think about it at all. [24:18] I was just learning how to do what, you know, it's totally your, your, about you, you know, and the band. [24:25] And are they going to, you know, what's the next number? [24:27] And are they going to play it right? [24:29] And am, am I going to remember the words? [24:31] You know, it's like, it's just the basics. [24:33] You're getting the basics down. [24:35] Okay. [24:36] So now after you've got through that accomplishment, which takes a bit of time to do, but then what you're saying is when I get out there, what does it, what does it all mean? [24:50] For you, for you. [24:51] Yeah. [24:52] Well, it's a lot of joy for me for a start. [24:54] Ah. [24:55] First of all, it's a huge buzz, you know, adrenaline. [24:58] And it is a huge adrenaline buzz, which must be the same as for a sport. [25:03] If you're playing sport, if you're playing a football team, you go out and play 50,000 people, it must be about the same, similar buzz. [25:10] So, you know, I don't have anyone coming at me. [25:13] So it's much easier than playing sport. [25:15] Yeah. [25:16] You don't have to dribble around someone. [25:17] And then sing. [25:18] I don't have to do any of that. [25:19] But that's where the analogy breaks down. [25:22] So, so you get out there and you get, when you get out there first, you get this massive adrenaline buzz. [25:28] And then your job really is really, you have to control that adrenaline buzz. [25:33] You know, you've got to look after yourself first. [25:35] And while you're doing that first five minutes, then you're evaluating the audience. [25:42] So you, you evaluate them, you know, in a good way, I mean, but you're evaluating them. [25:48] And how are they? [25:49] Taking the temperature. [25:50] How are they? [25:51] Yeah. [25:52] What's the temperature of the crowd? [25:53] How are they feeling? [25:54] Are they, is it cold? [25:55] You know, is it raining? [25:57] I mean, all these things happen. [25:59] Uh, uh, and you know, do they, are they already enjoying themselves or they feel a bit listless [26:05] after they wait too long? [26:06] Have they had a hard time getting in? [26:08] You know, all these things have contributed factors and all that. [26:11] So, so then you, you evaluate the audience and see how they feel. [26:16] Yeah. [26:17] And then a lot of them are very long way away, which is one of the problems you're playing. [26:22] Cause mostly I play stadiums, right? [26:24] If you're playing a theater, you don't have these problems. [26:27] You know, you can, you can, you, you, if you're playing a theater, you can very quickly become [26:32] a group, you know, and people, when I was, you know, starting out would show me how to [26:39] do that. [26:40] Well, like little Richard, I toured with for a long time. [26:43] Um, he, I had no idea that people even could do what he did. [26:47] You know, performers didn't do that. [26:49] They just went out and played their songs and kind of said hello. [26:52] And that was it. [26:53] I mean, he, he was embracing them all, getting them all to, you know, go along with his version [26:59] of the world, stand up, sit down and make jokes. [27:03] And it becomes a community, you know? [27:05] So for a small time, it becomes this community. [27:08] So it's much more difficult to do that in a stadium. [27:10] We still have to do it. [27:11] So that's why stages have to be big. [27:13] That's why you have to get down there. [27:15] That's why you have to pay attention to all these people. [27:18] And that's why you have to talk to them. [27:22] Cause you want that community for those couple of hours to be a good community. [27:26] Have fun. [27:27] That's your job. [27:28] I mean, I'm not completely answering your question, but I mean, that's, that's a lot [27:34] of what I do. [27:35] You know, I've, I've read a huge amount of interviews with you going back, you know, [27:42] decades. [27:43] Poor you. [27:44] They're, they're, they're interesting there, but there are some things that stand out. [27:47] And when one thing that I've noticed that you almost never do in interviews is tell [27:53] stories about being in the Rolling Stones. [27:56] And, and I'm not asking you to, you know, be nostalgic or, or share some intimate details, [28:03] but like, there's gotta be some like old, you know, chestnut that, that you break out at cocktail [28:10] parties or that your kids, if they ask you, Hey, what was it? [28:12] What was it like being on tour with Stevie Wonder in 1972 or whatever that, yeah. [28:17] Like a break glass in case of emergency kind of story that you can tell. [28:20] Is there, is there one you can share? [28:22] Just something really. [28:23] Here's a funny thing that happened when I was in the Rolling Stones. [28:25] You mentioned Stevie Wonder. [28:26] So. [28:27] I shouldn't have. [28:28] You mentioned Stevie Wonder. [28:29] So we were playing him Master of Garden with Stevie Wonder. [28:32] So we said, come up and we'll play. [28:34] We'll do a, we'll do a mashup of satisfaction and uptight. [28:38] And, uh, so cause they're both the same beat. [28:43] So, um, so, so it comes on the stage and we do this mashup uptight and then someone, [28:51] and I can't remember whose idea. [28:52] It might be mine. [28:53] Um, decides that we're going to throw custard pies at the end. [28:57] Cause it's the, it's the last day of the tour. [29:00] And it's the last number of the show. [29:02] Why wouldn't you throw custard pies? [29:04] It's rather unfair for Stevie. [29:06] So, but he, so we got, fuck it. [29:08] You know, throw, everyone's throwing a custard pie. [29:11] Including Stevie's throwing custard pies. [29:13] And everyone's ends covered in custard pies. [29:16] And I loved it. [29:17] All right. [29:18] There you go. [29:19] Thank you very much for taking the time to speak with me. [29:21] I appreciate it. [29:22] Thanks so much for everything. [29:23] Any questions are interesting. [29:25] On the interview, we talked to our guests twice. [29:29] A few weeks later, I spoke with Mick Jagger again about whether the Rolling Stones will ever go on tour again. [29:35] And what, if anything, is good about getting older. [29:38] Mick, we're officially rolling now. [29:42] Okay. [29:44] So what are we going to speak about today that we didn't speak about before? [29:46] Oh, there's so much, there's so many things. [29:48] But I'd like to start with a question about something that just came to me this morning. [29:52] Okay. [29:53] So I was, I was watching just clips of you on YouTube. [29:58] And there's a great, it's like a 50 second clip. [30:01] Yeah. [30:02] Of you, maybe it's backstage. [30:03] It's just you at a keyboard trying to work through the tune Shine a Light. [30:09] And you're trying to remember the chords. [30:12] And it's actually just this, it's a really beautiful short clip because you're playing those gospel chords. [30:17] Yeah. [30:18] There's like, to paraphrase the song, there's a little gleam right in your eye. [30:21] Yeah. [30:22] Okay. [30:23] And it feels like the apparatus of like fame and a crowd or any of like that has, anything [30:33] like that has fallen away and just a musician playing music and loving it. [30:37] And it's really very pure and sweet. [30:39] And I thought if I wondered, can you share a moment or a memory of just when you were playing [30:46] music and kind of the machinery around the Rolling Stones just fell away and you just [30:53] had that love and freedom and lost yourself just playing, playing a tune. [30:57] That's what you do when you're writing. [30:59] I mean, the occasion that you describe, I don't really remember, but you said it was backstage. [31:04] So that's a different thing. [31:06] You're obviously getting ready for a show and trying to, I don't know what I was doing. [31:13] I was probably going to do that song, but maybe I wasn't. [31:15] Maybe I was just doodling with that song, you know, for fun. [31:18] And then when you're, while you're waiting to go on stage sometimes, sometimes you, I always [31:23] have a piano in the room and a guitar and stuff. [31:26] And, and my room's always the quietest because I don't let people in like a load of friends [31:34] and families. [31:35] I don't, they can come in, but it's like, then you have to leave, you know? [31:41] And so, yeah. [31:43] So you can like, you have moments where you just doodle around, you know? [31:47] What you're describing really is when you're writing. [31:49] I mean, you don't, you're not thinking about going on stage or anything. [31:52] If you're at home or in a studio or in a writing studio or somewhere writing, then you're just [31:59] doodling. [32:01] That's how songs get made, you know, really. [32:03] It's just where you just doodle around and you don't, you're not thinking about anything [32:08] else. [32:09] So the thing about writing songs is because popular songs are really quite, I mean, they're [32:16] obviously really short. [32:17] So, which is due to the length of the 78 record creation. [32:23] It's completely arbitrary reason that they're on three minutes. [32:26] Yeah. [32:27] The technology imposed this thing on it. [32:30] I think that's, anyway, it doesn't really matter. [32:32] That's what it is. [32:33] You know, it's three minutes, four minutes maximum, something like this. [32:36] So, so it's not going to be that much. [32:42] And, and it can be quite complex musically, but lyrically, how much lyrics are you going [32:47] to really stick in? [32:49] So musically, it's, you know, you can just doodle your way through this. [32:54] So while your mind is free, and you're having fun with it, then I think that's the most interesting [33:01] part of the process. [33:04] And I think, I think having, having fun is not like, I don't mean you're all standing [33:09] around drinking and like shouting and jumping up and down, but I mean, it's your mind is [33:14] not really being serious. [33:15] It's, it's playful. [33:17] Playful is a better word than fun. [33:19] So you can be playful. [33:21] And then, so if you're playful, you can, you can just let your mind just go this way, [33:27] that way and if not, and don't be worried if not, if nothing happens, nothing happens. [33:32] Something will happen later or tomorrow. [33:34] I saw, I was watching the video for in the stars recently, which is the one where they [33:40] use the D technology for you guys. [33:43] And I actually thought it was sort of a, like a conceptually interesting choice for a variety [33:49] of reasons. [33:50] One of which is that, you know, I, I think of one of the sort of life affirming things about [33:57] the Rolling Stones is that you've been sort of defiant in terms of like what aging means. [34:03] You know, you're still out there doing it and then doing the de-aging. [34:06] I was like, oh, that's kind of an interesting choice to take. [34:10] But, you know, I think that an opposite view of, of the band as being like defiant, defying [34:16] aging and, and still being out there is that, you know, you guys all have Peter Pan complexes [34:20] or something like that. [34:21] Yeah. [34:22] But, but for, but I want to know what you find like interesting or, or hard to, to reckon [34:30] with in terms of aging or like what's, what's good about getting older? [34:34] What's less good? [34:35] And I, I don't just mean like, I don't just mean physically, but metaphysically too. [34:39] There's nothing good about it. [34:41] Nothing? [34:42] No. [34:43] Wisdom? [34:44] No? [34:45] Nothing. [34:46] You don't get wisdom. [34:47] I forgot all my wisdom. [34:48] I might've had a couple of pearls drop, but that I think I've probably forgotten what [34:54] they are. [34:55] Yeah. [34:56] Nah. [34:57] So no, it's not, no, it's not particularly pleasant. [35:02] And of course you can't do things as quickly as you want to and all that sort of thing. [35:08] And, uh, physically, physically, you can't do things that you would like to do. [35:13] You've got to be, you have to be more careful. [35:15] I mean, you can still do them, but you have to be more careful when you do them. [35:20] You know, when, if you're the playing goalie in the football team and, and you, you know, [35:25] okay, you go in goal. [35:26] They only put you in goal a lot. [35:29] I'm not really very good at it. [35:33] It's a metaphor for aging being in goal. [35:35] You put in goal. [35:36] Yeah. [35:37] Um, I have another philosophical question. [35:42] Yeah. [35:43] And this one is about sex and I'm not going to, don't worry. [35:46] It's a big subject. [35:47] It's a big subject. [35:48] I'm not going to ask you for any details. [35:49] So don't, don't worry. [35:50] It's a, it is sort of, so, so you're, you're, you know, you're, you have publicly been identified [35:57] with sex for a long time. [35:58] Like a sex symbol. [35:59] You write songs that are heavily sexual. [36:01] You know, you're like an, an avatar of sexiness. [36:04] You know, I don't think I'm, I'm speaking out of turn by saying you have. [36:07] Sex, drugs and rock and roll. [36:08] We're going right. [36:09] You, you have, uh, uh, you know, a reputation as sort of a, a libertine maybe. [36:13] And, and, but that's outside perspective, but I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, you [36:19] also have had like sort of, uh, put sex as like central to your identity over the years. [36:25] And I wonder how has your thinking about sex changed over time? [36:30] Because it changes for everyone. [36:31] Yeah. [36:32] So how has it changed for you, Mick Jagger? [36:34] Well, it's really difficult. [36:36] And I don't know the answer, honestly. [36:38] It's, it, it, it's a very good question. [36:40] And people always say that when I'm thinking about what the fuck am I going to say to him? [36:45] Uh, but, but, but, but, but I don't really know. [36:50] I really don't know the answer. [36:51] I'd have to, you know, you're, you're asking me these questions. [36:54] That is a really hard question. [36:56] And, and I don't know what the answer I could, if we sat down and we weren't recording this [37:01] and we weren't doing an interview, we could talk about how that would work. [37:05] And you'd have to tell me how it worked for you. [37:07] Cause we could compare experiences, but you know, yeah, probably because that's how you get insights. [37:14] You know? [37:15] I mean, if you're just talking about yourself, like a public person, it's weird. [37:21] Um, the only thing I will say is that, that, that through your, throughout your life, [37:28] your attitude to sex changes and your sexual tastes change in, in one's life. [37:34] Sex is not a fixed point. [37:36] So that's what I think. [37:40] Obviously everybody's different, but I would like care. [37:45] I would say, and I'm not, this is not my sort of area of expertise, honestly, [37:51] because we're into areas of, of human psychology, sexual drive. [37:58] Uh, all this stuff is all pop psychology. [38:01] People, everyone's read a bit about it, but do they know about it? [38:05] But my observation is that, that you, that your attitudes to sex are different as you, [38:11] as in different parts of your life. [38:14] Yeah. [38:15] I mean, your orientation, your sexual orientation may change. [38:18] It, it may change completely, or it might change, oh. [38:22] Or it might, or, or avenues might open up to you that you hadn't realized. [38:27] Or they, or you, or, or you might close avenues that have opened up because you don't like them. [38:33] Or you tried something that you'd like for a couple of years and then you decide, oh. [38:40] And, and it's like other tastes, it's like tasting art, you know, that you, when you're very young, [38:47] you might like these kinds of pictures. [38:49] And then when you're a bit older, you might change your taste in art. [38:53] So I'm not saying sex is like art. [38:55] Well, I am. [38:56] What I'm saying is you're, but, but that's a question of taste, but you're, why is your taste changed? [39:01] You know what? [39:02] Right. [39:03] There's something, is it because of knowledge or is it just because you're bored with it? [39:09] You know, do you know, or is it a combination of all these things? [39:12] You know, so you're, you're tasting, you're literally tasting food changed. [39:17] So when you're really young and you like alcohol, you drink the sweet things normally. [39:22] You know, when you, you like sweet wine, oh, that's like great. [39:25] And then, then someone tells you, that's not really, you shouldn't be drinking that. [39:29] You know, you should drink this. [39:30] And you try that and go, I really don't like that. [39:32] I'll try it. [39:33] You know, like when we were really teenage, when we were teenagers, we liked rock music, [39:38] but we, other, other more snobbish people say, you should listen to this jazz. [39:42] You should listen to this jazz. [39:43] You know, you should listen to jazz. [39:45] You know, it's more intellectual, you know, than so, so that in Tom Stoppard's play, [39:52] the real thing, he's an, he's an intellectual writer is almost Tom. [39:57] And, but he's going on this program called Desert Island Disc, which is a program where you choose records to take with you on your desert island. [40:06] And that's all you, that's the only music you can have. [40:08] And he, he says, but all I like is like to do Ron Ron. [40:12] And he's, he's an intellectual. [40:13] So he says, they expect me to choose Schoenberg and Beethoven. [40:17] And, and so, so he's an intellectual. [40:22] So it's, it's this thing of being an intellectual. [40:24] So he say, but yeah, okay. [40:26] Play me that jazz music, you know? [40:27] Okay. [40:28] Dizzy Gillespie. [40:29] Play me Dizzy Gillespie. [40:30] Okay. [40:31] Do I really like that? [40:32] Or do I like Chuck Berry? [40:33] You know what I mean? [40:34] So, well, I'll, I'll start to appreciate it. [40:37] You know? [40:38] And we used to like play the modern jazz quartet, you know? [40:41] Oh yeah. [40:42] Yeah. [40:43] I used to go and see the, I used to go and see the modern jazz quartet in concert. [40:47] I mean, it's expensive. [40:49] Everyone's sitting down very seriously listening to it. [40:52] No one's like standing up, you know? [40:54] Talk about a rabbit hole. [40:58] I asked you about sex. [40:59] We ended up at the modern jazz quartet. [41:01] How did I get out of that question? [41:03] But I thought you gave a very, you know, I thought you gave a good answer. [41:06] You said you didn't know how to answer it. [41:07] Then you gave a good answer. [41:09] I want to also know a little bit more about sort of how you see your musical evolution. [41:16] Because I think, I think it's fair to say that, you know, probably in that sort of magical [41:21] period between 68 and 72 is the period when sort of what people expect a Rolling Stones [41:28] album to sound like kind of got solidified. [41:31] And, and the new album people say, you know, this, it sounds like a Stones album. [41:35] And I think they mean it sort of has the signifiers of the, the classic Stones album. [41:40] And I know there's been lots of experimenting with, you know, reggae, funk, disco over the years. [41:44] But I think it's, it's true that there is a Rolling Stones sound. [41:48] And as a, as a sort of a creative music. [41:51] I can kind of argue against that in a way, if I want to. [41:54] What, what argument would you make? [41:55] Well. [41:56] I'm going to tell you that you're wrong, but. [41:59] No, but I can take another position, you know. [42:02] Okay. [42:03] I mean, just for the sake of it, I could. [42:05] Music, because if we're talking about musicality, that that's what you're best known for. [42:10] You know, what the most people, if they're not particularly vaguely interested, but not very interested. [42:18] Then you're absolutely right. [42:20] You know, that that's what you would say. [42:22] But I could point out to lots of other. [42:25] I'm not a huge student of the Rolling Stones over. [42:29] You know what I mean? [42:30] I can't, I haven't got it all at my fingertips and lists of it. [42:33] If I did, I could point at them and say, you see, I could point to like. [42:37] Miss you. [42:38] So many. [42:39] Yeah. [42:40] I could say, well, that was. [42:41] Hot stuff. [42:42] That was that. [42:43] Yeah. [42:44] But then I could point at Lady Jane, you know. [42:45] Right. [42:46] Like an Elizabethan. [42:47] Yeah. [42:48] And I could point to his tears go by. [42:50] I could point to Angie. [42:51] Yeah. [42:52] I could point. [42:53] I mean, I could point to Painted Black. [42:56] You know, even like under my thumb that someone played to me the other day. [43:00] I mean, it's got, it's vocally, it's very me, but instrumentally and the way it's played [43:06] is so light and it's so, it's so sort of like, it's not heavy at all. [43:12] Cause everyone's playing really lightly. [43:14] And so there's other versions of the band and that's what I think makes the band more [43:20] an interesting band. [43:21] Obviously it's not the same people either. [43:23] Um, you know, she smiles sweetly is another one from. [43:27] Yeah. [43:28] Very old. [43:29] But, but, you know, it's interesting that the songs that you noted are all songs that [43:32] came before, I guess, with the exception of Angie before that period. [43:36] I, I suggested. [43:37] Yes. [43:38] But even after that period, I can point out other ones. [43:40] Yeah. [43:41] I remember them as well, you know, but there's, there's, and there's not Elizabethan ones, [43:46] but there's, there's many other ones. [43:48] And you said Angie, that's not in that period. [43:50] And there's lots and lots of others, you know, waiting on a friend. [43:54] It's a, it's a kind of rumba, you know, ballad rumba. [43:58] I mean, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's like, and very light with an alto saxophone lead. [44:03] It's not really what you would expect. [44:06] But are there, are there styles of music that just, you know, you maybe wanted to do or [44:13] sort of like dream projects that you had in the back of your mind that you thought sort [44:18] of because of maybe audience expectations or what you thought the band would be interested [44:22] in that you didn't pursue? [44:24] Yeah. [44:25] The, well, yes, but you, you can pursue them, but you, but you don't take them to the kind [44:30] of doing a whole album of them. [44:32] You know, you know, I can say I like Samba music. [44:35] So I did sympathy for the devil. [44:36] I have now never done another Samba, but I listened to Samba all the time. [44:42] So I could say, well, I mean, but no one's interested in me doing a whole Samba record. [44:46] I can't imagine anyone being interested. [44:48] I mean, I'd like to do another Samba tune, but, but you don't want to pursue your whole [44:54] interest in Samba down so far down the road. [44:57] I mean, I'm interested. [44:58] I like, I mean, I love Latin music of all kinds. [45:00] And, and I, the rhythmically speaking, there's so many different rhythms and, and yeah, I, I, [45:07] I would like to pursue that. [45:09] And maybe I could have, or should have pursued that more because I I'm really interested in [45:14] those rhythms, you know? [45:15] So, so yeah. [45:17] So, but if you're in a rock band, you get to touch on them, but you don't get to fully explore [45:22] them. [45:23] Um, there's a beautiful version you did of a long black veil with the chieftains probably [45:29] 30 years ago. [45:30] And I thought, oh, it would have been, it would be great to hear a Mick Jagger album of like [45:35] traditional, uh, Irish, British and American tunes. [45:38] Yeah. [45:39] Yeah. [45:40] I mean, I've, I've done that. [45:42] And, uh, I, I mean, the thing is that the, all the members of the band of Keith and Brian [45:49] and to some extent all like that music, Ronnie also, I mean, we, we, it's kind of our kind [45:58] of, in a way it's our home music, you know, and even though the sort of 80% of our music [46:05] is influenced by black culture, which we have a huge debt to owe to, to black music and [46:13] everything. [46:14] Uh, we, we also acknowledge our own roots in that, in that other music, you know, by playing [46:21] those songs, you know, like, I mean, long black veil, I long back veil was, I think I [46:26] heard Johnny Cash do that first, but it sounds like an Irish or English song. [46:31] And I did it with the Chiefs, which is an Irish, was an Irish band, but it's, it's, you know, [46:39] it, it could be an English song or border ballad or, you know, the, I was, we were all very [46:44] interested. [46:45] Um, we were all brought up to read border ballads, which are neither English nor Scottish [46:50] nor Irish, but it's, it, they're, they're an amalgam of all of those things, a very, very [46:54] similar background. [46:56] I, I'd also like to ask you about rock a little more broadly and, and generally, you [47:02] know, it's this, it's this music that you've given your creative life to. [47:06] And, you know, the, the still in 2026, the biggest rock concert draws are like Gen, Gen [47:13] X bands and baby boomer bands. [47:15] Yeah. [47:16] And I've seen data that actually suggests that catalog music, you know, older music has [47:20] more streaming market share than younger music and, and, and is continuing to trend, trend [47:26] that way. [47:27] And I think that even if you think about, you know, like the buzziest younger rock band [47:32] of today, right? [47:33] Which is a band like Geese. [47:34] I don't know if you're familiar with them. [47:35] Yeah, I am. [47:36] They're even, even a band like that still kind of feels like a, you know, culturally marginal [47:42] band to a certain extent. [47:44] And, and so my question to you is. [47:46] What do you mean culturally marginal? [47:48] You know, they're not in the center of the culture. [47:50] Like, you know, it's there, they don't have. [47:51] Well, no, but Geese, I mean, I was talked about them in an interview. [47:54] Yeah. [47:55] Someone asked me, but I, I, everyone was talking about this band and I, when I played [48:00] them, I thought it was going to be more like an indie band, you know, but it was, it was [48:03] much more experimental than I thought, which I thought was great. [48:06] You know, I, I mean, I liked it, but it wasn't what I thought went from people describing [48:11] it to me or reading about it. [48:13] So yeah. [48:14] So that's very hard for a band as experimental as that to be. [48:19] To break through. [48:20] To be, you know, in a, in a, in a center of a mainstream music. [48:24] I think at this any time, I mean, maybe in the 1970, it might've been, but, but now I [48:32] wouldn't have thought so. [48:33] But anyway, I, I mean, maybe there will be, maybe I'm wrong. [48:35] Do you have thoughts about the vitality of, of rock music as a whole or its place in the [48:41] culture right now, given that the most popular exponents tend to be older artists. [48:46] Older. [48:47] It's kind of an unusual. [48:48] I think, but despite the fact that, you know, um, rock music as a, as a, as a genre is not [48:58] really, uh, the mainstream center of music. [49:03] It still has a lot of supporters and it still has a lot of young teenage people that want [49:08] to play it, you know, in, you know, in all kinds of forms of it, you know, and you hope [49:14] that it evolves, you know, rap was kind of center of our music like 20 years ago. [49:20] And now it's like rap is not the force it once was really, but everyone incorporates [49:27] it. [49:28] You know, you incorporate it into everything. [49:30] It's, it's one of the strands of popular music. [49:34] Like rock is like, you know, rap is like straight pop is like all these things. [49:40] We have all these strands in popular music, um, that really, I wonder, you know, it's really [49:48] rather artificial, a lot of times when we describe music. [49:52] I didn't make touch on this before in our earlier conversation. [49:55] So it's, it, it, it's a marketable when you have to market things, you, you want to tell [50:04] people what they are, you know, so that, so this, that this is mint flavored. [50:09] Okay. [50:10] So everyone normally likes that, you know, so it's mint flavored ice creams, mint flavored [50:15] so you put the genre mint, I'm selling mint flavored products. [50:20] It's a bit like that music. [50:21] Yeah. [50:22] So that you, so people know what they're getting and they know what they're getting, you know, [50:25] so you don't want to scare them. [50:27] That's it. [50:28] So we've got cut up all our genres in like little slices. [50:32] But the reality is that most musicians appreciate all kinds of music. [50:37] So what I'm saying is, is there's a lot of music has a lot of history and it shouldn't [50:42] really be by intelligent people who shouldn't be slicing it in little bits and so only like [50:48] this bit, you know, I don't like folk music. [50:51] What's that mean? [50:52] It doesn't mean anything. [50:53] What's folk music or this invented things, you know? [50:56] Right. [50:57] They're arbitrary distinctions. [50:58] They are. [50:59] Yeah. [51:00] Uh, I saw a quote from Keith the other day saying, you know, the band probably, um, [51:06] it was probably not going to be able to do long tours anymore. [51:10] That there might be, you know, there's hopes to do residencies and things like that. [51:14] And who, I don't know how you think, but do you, you must have some doubt about whether [51:19] or not the Rolling Stones will ever go on a. [51:22] Yeah. [51:23] I mean, I've doubt about it when, when I hear that, you know, I, I have doubt about it. [51:28] I don't mind touring at all. [51:30] I mean, residencies are, if you can't, if you, you can't do any shows and you can't go anywhere, [51:38] then you have to do residencies. [51:39] Obviously you can't go. [51:40] You've got to go to the, well, you have to go to the arena. [51:43] You're not going to do it for your bedroom, but I suppose you could, but you've got to [51:50] go somewhere. [51:51] So I would say, well, you're going to, you can't just do. [51:54] So if Harry Styles, he says he's doing residencies, but he's doing London and Amsterdam, [51:58] you know, and so on and so on. [52:00] It is a tour. [52:01] You know, it's not only London. [52:03] Do you know what I mean? [52:04] Yeah. [52:05] Do you think the stones will do another, you know, I hope so. [52:08] That's all I'm saying. [52:09] I would hope so. [52:10] I'm, I'm very pleased to be able to, I want to do it. [52:13] I'm, I'm, I'm up for doing it. [52:15] I like touring. [52:16] So, but the thing is, the only thing about doing residencies, it makes it for the people [52:21] that want to come and see you, it makes it much more expensive. [52:24] It really does. [52:25] I mean, think about it. [52:26] You have to, you have to travel, you have to get a hotel and you have to buy a ticket, which [52:30] is not going to be cheap, you know, so that I might, it'll be less cheap. [52:35] It'll be cheaper than the World Cup in the United States. [52:40] It was much easier when it was in Germany, because Germany is a smaller country. [52:46] Do you think, do you think you'll know when you've walked off the stage with the Rolling [52:51] Stones for the last time? [52:52] No. [52:53] No. [52:55] I don't think you'll ever know. [52:56] I mean, maybe I have. [52:58] That's true. [52:59] Maybe it's happened. [53:00] You never know, you could get run over by a bus outside my house. [53:04] You never really know, do you? [53:06] You know what's going to happen to you in life. [53:08] But I mean, I personally hope to be able to tour again. [53:13] I love touring. [53:14] I like going places. [53:15] You know, I like meeting people. [53:16] I like to go into, I like to go to weird countries, you know, and do shows. [53:21] I was doing a promotion with Indonesia and I did a show in Indonesia once on my own. [53:26] It was just so crazy. [53:27] It was so hot. [53:29] It was unbelievable. [53:31] People were like, Europe's heat wave. [53:33] It was so hot. [53:34] And I was out there and it was daytime. [53:36] There's not many lights. [53:37] I was like, what am I going to wear? [53:39] And this guy reminded me of my show in Indonesia. [53:43] And I said, yeah, I'll do a show in Indonesia. [53:46] You know, it's really, I love doing that. [53:48] I love going to India. [53:50] And when one, we did two shows in India, you know, now India is a big market. [53:54] Can I ask you a completely tangential random question? [53:58] Yeah. [53:59] I was looking and now, so the fact that I couldn't find it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. [54:02] But I could not find any quote or record of you commenting on singing backing vocals on Carly Simon's You're So Vain. [54:12] No, I can't find it anywhere. [54:14] What do you want me to say? [54:15] I remember doing it. [54:17] But when did you realize that some people thought the song was about you? [54:22] Why would it be about me when I'm singing on it? [54:24] No, it doesn't make sense. [54:25] But people think that's what it was. [54:27] That was a big thing, wasn't it? [54:29] You know, because she would never reveal who it was about. [54:32] And then she did. [54:33] I never thought to ask. [54:34] Yeah. [54:35] I never thought to. [54:36] I was just a song. [54:37] It sounds like a good title. [54:38] It was just a song. [54:39] I'm just the backing vocalist. [54:40] Because I knew the producer, whose name I'm now going to forget. [54:44] Richard Perry. [54:47] Oh, there you go. [54:48] Yep. [54:49] Richard Perry was a guy I knew, you know. [54:52] And he was in London. [54:53] He just phoned me up and said, can you do the backing of her? [54:55] Because I love doing those sort of things. [54:57] Especially with, you know, if it's a female, you're the male person. [55:00] You know what I mean? [55:01] It's slightly different doing it with men. [55:03] But I don't care. [55:04] So I just went along and did it. [55:06] I thought it was a great song, you know. [55:08] And it was a big hit for her. [55:10] And I was never credited to be the feature. [55:13] These days, I'd be the feature. [55:14] You'd be Carly Simon featuring Mick Jagger. [55:16] But you never said to her, you never said to her, who's this one about? [55:20] I'm louder than her on some of it. [55:22] I know, in the chorus. [55:23] Yeah. [55:24] Yeah. [55:25] Yeah. [55:26] Well, thank you for clearing that up. [55:28] Now we've now added to the sum total. [55:30] Oh, I want to clear things up. [55:31] While we're talking about cleaning things up. [55:33] So I said to you at the beginning before we were recording. [55:36] Yeah. [55:37] I said, well, now the record's been reviewed everywhere. [55:39] A lot of reviews for it. [55:40] And I got literally lots of nice reviews. [55:43] It's weird how people, though, they give you really, I mean, it's gotten some great reviews. [55:49] And I'm really appreciative of that. [55:50] Yeah. [55:51] But something's nagging at you. [55:52] What is it? [55:53] No, I'm not. [55:54] It's not nagging. [55:55] It's just that people, they hear some one word and they don't really listen to the line. [56:03] So it's like, so Mick Jagger has a go at Elon Musk. [56:08] Well, you're not listening to the line. [56:12] You're only listening to Musk. [56:13] That's all you hear. [56:14] Musk, he must be having a go at him. [56:16] I do call him mad. [56:18] And he's the one person you name on the whole album. [56:22] No other person. [56:23] He's name checked. [56:24] It's the only name check. [56:25] It seems like it would have some importance. [56:27] Yeah. [56:28] But the funny thing is, when I wrote that, I was like, it was, I was thinking that he, [56:35] because of him, they were able to get those astronauts back, you know, that was stuck, [56:40] because he provided the transportation, because NASA couldn't provide the transportation. [56:46] So that line, the line of the song is about when I was a kid, I used to want to go to Mars [56:52] and everything. [56:53] And then, and then I said, who would trust, who would you trust to get you into space? [56:59] And would you trust Boeing? [57:00] Or was it NASA? [57:01] Or was it mad mogul, Mr. Musk? [57:03] So it's really a sidewinding compliment because he was the one that I remembered was able to [57:09] do that when the others couldn't. [57:11] Yeah. [57:12] Well, that's what you get for using the adjective mad. [57:14] Well, and mogul. [57:15] And mogul. [57:16] Mogul doesn't always go down well either. [57:19] No, no. [57:20] No one likes a mogul. [57:21] No one likes a mogul. [57:22] He's got, it's a Persian word, but you know, nobody likes to be called it. [57:28] You know, I had asked you about the lyrics to Sway when we spoke the first time. [57:32] I have another lyric question that I want to ask you. [57:35] My favorite Rolling Stones song, which I think is also the best Rolling Stones song, is You [57:41] Can't Always Get What You Want. [57:42] Yeah. [57:43] And I think, I think, you know, it's a simple sentiment, but I actually think there's something [57:47] profound in the chorus, right? [57:48] Which is you can't always get what you want. [57:50] But if you try sometimes, you just might find you get what you need. [57:53] And, and what's, what's something that, or the last thing that you really tried to get, [58:01] that you wanted to get. [58:02] Oh my God. [58:03] That you couldn't find. [58:04] And song analysis leads to a personal, leads to a personal wish. [58:10] Sure. [58:12] No, I think I, I, I can't recall one that stands out, honestly. [58:22] Well, that's, that's a good life, my friend. [58:25] I mean, I'm sorry. [58:26] No, it's good. [58:27] I mean, obviously there's all kinds of things in daily life that you, that everyone's has [58:33] frustrations. [58:34] Um, I mean, I was very frustrated, uh, professionally for years that we, the Rolling Stones never made [58:42] any new music. [58:43] That was a huge frustration for me. [58:45] Yeah. [58:46] I mean, and, and, and I solved it, you know? [58:51] Yeah. [58:52] I solved it. [58:53] And I mean, with everyone else's help, obviously, but they had to agree to it. [58:57] You know, it was like, huh? [58:58] And I, you know, I mean, it's like, okay. [59:01] Um, that, but you know, it's like, that was a huge frustration that I, I'm, I'm, I mean, [59:08] you're asking me these really difficult questions and I'm trying to come up with something to say [59:12] it, but that was a huge frustration. [59:14] And, and, and I, if, if you'd have interviewed me four years ago, I would have said that. [59:22] There's another old clip I saw of you from a press conference, probably. [59:25] Yeah. [59:26] Really old one. [59:27] One of those, because we don't press conferences for hundreds of years. [59:30] Yeah. [59:31] A really old, I think maybe he's connected to a, a Madison Square Garden concert in the [59:35] late sixties, something like that. [59:36] And someone, uh, just asked, you know, just asks you some vague question. [59:40] Like how, how, how do you think about being in the Rolling Stones? [59:43] And you described the Rolling Stones as sexually disatisfied, uh, you know, uh, sexually [59:50] satisfied philosophically trying. [59:52] Yeah. [59:53] There's just a pat answer to a news conference in New York where you used to say, people used [59:58] to throw you just really dumb questions, but that was a quite a good one. [1:00:02] Yeah. [1:00:03] That was, but so don't give me the pat answer in 2026. [1:00:06] Where do you stand with those three things? [1:00:08] My, my interest in philosophy is superficial. [1:00:11] Right. [1:00:12] Um, I mean, mainly because I find a really hard subject. [1:00:18] I, I, I mean, I really, I really find it difficult because I need a teacher. [1:00:25] I can't just do it from reading. [1:00:27] I can't. [1:00:28] And when I was in college, I did some, some philosophy courses and that's a hundreds of [1:00:33] years ago. [1:00:35] And, and I didn't really, I don't, I make one reference to the, to in, in the song. [1:00:41] Um, oh, in jealous lover. [1:00:46] There's a, there's a Plato reference. [1:00:49] Uh, shadows on the wall. [1:00:51] Yes. [1:00:52] You got it. [1:00:53] Well done. [1:00:54] Yeah. [1:00:55] You got it. [1:00:56] So yeah, but I, but, uh, on my cave, it's even more obvious. [1:01:01] Um, uh, so, but I find it a really hard subject to educate myself into. [1:01:08] And I've recently read a couple of books on, I'm really funny, hard. [1:01:13] And so, and they're always, always having so many arguments, these philosophers and they're, [1:01:19] and they're always like disagreeing with their masters. [1:01:22] What were, and then the master disagrees with them. [1:01:25] I was reading this book on Kant and he, so his, has these people, I can't find his name, [1:01:30] who then he writes a book, they're attacking his own master. [1:01:33] Yeah. [1:01:34] Then Kant replies to him, you know, they're quite rude to each other. [1:01:37] And then they have to make up later. [1:01:39] And, and, and I, and none of it, I can understand what they're really talking about. [1:01:43] You know, was Kant a Christian? [1:01:46] I think it's cool. [1:01:48] Was he an atheist? [1:01:49] I think it's cool that you're reading Kant. [1:01:51] Well, it's sort of vaguely fashionable. [1:01:54] Um, wait, but, but, so let's say it fills up. [1:01:57] You're still trying and let's just, you know. [1:02:00] I'm sticking with that. [1:02:01] I'm still sticking with that 1965 quote. [1:02:03] All right. [1:02:04] Um, Mick, you know, this is going to be a corny way to end, but it's been, uh, [1:02:08] gas, gas, gas. [1:02:09] Oh no, that's awful, David. [1:02:11] That's terrible. [1:02:12] I wish I'd worn a pink shirt. [1:02:14] Thank you very much. [1:02:15] I appreciate it. [1:02:16] Thank you so much. [1:02:17] Thanks. [1:02:18] All right. [1:02:19] Take care. [1:02:25] Bye. [1:02:26] I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. [1:02:27] And I'm David Marchese. [1:02:28] And we're the hosts of The Interview, an audio and video podcast from The New York Times. [1:02:32] Every week we interview fascinating and influential people from all walks of life. [1:02:36] Subscribe to our YouTube channel so you'll never miss an episode.