Maggie Haberman reveals who Trump berated on election night

[0:00] Maggie, what are you hearing from sources about what drove this decision by the president to [0:04] replace Susie Wiles with Stephen Miller? Before I get to that, I just want to remind people that [0:08] when the president says he's not going to fire someone, it doesn't usually mean much and often, [0:14] in fact, means they're going to be fired pretty soon. So this has been brewing for some time. [0:17] This was not a surprise. My colleagues and I reported earlier today. This is not just in [0:22] recent days. The president has been incredibly critical of Susie Wiles behind the scenes to [0:27] her face, to other people over the course of the last, I would say, at least six months, [0:31] if not longer. There have been a bunch of people inside the administration undermining her as well. [0:37] Now, Stephen Miller is actually not somebody who I'm referring to in that category. I think that [0:41] Miller's allies made clear that he was fine with Wiles if she stayed on as chief of staff, but they [0:46] thought that he should get it if she left. But there were a number of people who had been raising [0:50] questions about her with the president. And yes, the president berated her in front of other people [0:55] on election night in the East Room, blamed her for the losses. He had also been very critical [1:00] in other circumstances of James Blair, her close associate. When you have a wave, Caitlin, that [1:06] sweeps seats from Mississippi to Maine, that's not really a tactical campaign decision. And this is a [1:13] White House where the policy is largely set by the president. He does not want to be reined in. [1:18] He wants decisions to be made by a small number of people. And he's been berating her for months [1:22] about not finding the quote-unquote leak related to his travel to Turkey during the NATO summit over [1:29] the summer. When he was put in the refrigerator truck. When he was put in the refrigerator truck [1:32] and they told everybody that he was actually on a plane that press and a number of his own cabinet [1:37] members were on. Including Stephen Miller, by the way. Yeah, well, he was aware of the situation [1:41] at minimum, or at least I should say. But separately, he has been very angry that there have not been [1:47] further prosecutions against people he perceives as his political enemies. And he's been complaining [1:52] about that for months. So I think this is an aggregate number of events. This puts a very [1:57] controversial and very polarizing figure now as chief of staff. And it is coming at a time when [2:03] Democrats are a little different than the Congress that came in in January of 2019 when those Democrats [2:09] got elected. These folks have been much more focused on an economic populist message about this [2:15] president. And I'm not sure what this looks like going forward. Well, and I should also note that [2:20] you and your colleagues were on the verge of reporting about Trump talking about replacing [2:24] Wiles when the president posted on Truth Social today. The president had called a number of people [2:29] and said that he was planning to replace her. He had asked people specifically what they thought about [2:33] Stephen Miller and to a lesser extent Jay Clayton. But it was very clear that Miller was in the lead [2:39] position for a number of reasons. And yes, after Tyler Pager and Jonathan Swan and I reached out for [2:43] comment, the president shortly put this out after a meeting with Susie Wiles. [2:48] I feel like Stephen Miller was always on the short list for chief of staff. No one is surprised by [2:52] that. But I actually did hear a lot of surprise today that he actually pulled the trigger and went [2:57] with Stephen Miller, just given, of course, the role he's played, you know, what he's done inside the [3:03] Trump administration. Obviously, it's very loyal to the president. But what do we think two years of [3:09] Stephen Miller as the chief of staff looks like potentially? So it's interesting. It reminds me a lot of [3:14] any time that the president has faced some kind of a loss or some kind of an embarrassment. Let's from [3:20] the Access Hollywood tape, right, where his response was to bring Bill Clinton's accusers to the debate in [3:26] St. Louis in the 2016 campaign to after he lost the November 2020 election to maintain that actually he had [3:33] want it and do everything that he could instead of seeing what voters said as a rebuke of this [3:39] president and his administration, which it absolutely is. And the Iran war is obviously front and center [3:44] and a lot of it, but it is certainly not all of it. It is a number of events, one of which is the [3:49] immigration crackdowns. And so what it tells me is that President Trump has one move and it is always [3:55] more MAGA or more Trump. And this is what you're seeing. [3:58] Do we know how Stephen Miller lately, what his view of the Iran war is? [4:02] We have heard mixed things. I mean, I think that what you saw very clearly wasn't just Pete Hegseth [4:08] standing by Stephen Miller behind the scenes. Our understanding is that Stephen Miller and Pete [4:13] Hegseth have been allies for quite some time. Actually, Jonathan and I wrote about that in [4:16] Regime Change. Stephen Miller was key in putting together this cabinet and a number of cabinet officials [4:22] came into the job. And we were told this by a number of people during our reporting, [4:25] understanding that Stephen Miller was somebody who they really needed to eagerly work with [4:30] or be concerned about crossing. That goes for Hegseth, that goes for Todd Blanche, [4:34] that goes for Marco Rubio. And you saw them walking together to Marine One, Marco Rubio and Stephen [4:38] Miller. I think this might buy Pete Hegseth some time. Pete Hegseth, however, had been known inside [4:45] the West Wing as the biggest champion, to the extent there was one, of the war early on and when most [4:51] of Trump's advisers were against it. And he's going to get impeached potentially as soon as next week. [4:56] And there is the question of, even if he doesn't, there is the question of passing the defense [4:59] spending bill. And so the question becomes exactly how you do that while insisting. The Pentagon is not [5:05] a well-funded agency. There is one well-funded agency in this government and it's the Department of [5:09] Homeland Security, which Stephen also has a lot of involvement with. But this might buy Hegseth time. [5:14] We'll see. You described the president the other day as being in a processing state. One thing that [5:21] is clear from this move today is his what seemed like denial of what happened on Tuesday is wearing [5:27] off and that he is coming to terms with what has happened and is increasingly unhappy about it. [5:32] Remember after the November election for the first day and a half, he appeared almost in shock and was [5:37] saying sort of muted conciliatory things to people around him like, we did our best, you know, we really [5:42] tried. It took a little while, not tons of time, but it took a few days for him to get to the point [5:48] of actually, you know, do not declare Joe Biden the winner and let's fight for it. I think you are [5:53] seeing something similar like that here. In terms of, by the way, I didn't answer your question, [5:57] on what Stephen Miller's view of the war is, you know, we don't quite know exactly what he will do. [6:03] What we have been told by multiple, multiple people in the administration is that Miller has been [6:06] privately clear that he knows that the Iran war has been viewed very, very negatively by the [6:11] president's base voters. Yeah. And so in terms of where the president is on this, I mean, [6:16] he's also raising the question that other people are on the chopping block. It's not just Susie Wiles [6:21] here. And, and defended Pete Hegseth again, which again, doesn't mean much, but I don't think, [6:26] I do think he likes Hegseth personally. I don't think the president wants to get rid of Hegseth. [6:29] Um, who else it could be? There, there are any number of people, there are not a number of agencies [6:34] that he actually really cares about. Yeah. I do expect other changes. Well, he cares about two jobs, [6:38] chief of staff and the press secretary. One of those is unfilled still, um, in terms that you [6:43] were nodding your head along when I was talking about how it is so Trump one, like inside the [6:49] West wing right now. I mean, you really can't overstate the factionalization, the fighting of [6:55] people who are jockeying for power or unsure where their power kind of lies in this moment. [7:01] It has been said for days, months, weeks. I don't know. I think they're all one big, [7:06] big day at this point, but it's been at most of this year has been people describing sort of the [7:11] reverting to the mean of the infighting of what had really been, it had always been below the [7:16] surface in this particular version of the Trump administration, but they were all kind of unified [7:22] in wanting to see him succeed. Or there were a number of people who were very loyal to Susie Wiles [7:26] in the West wing. And so all of that created a very different scenario for the first year. [7:31] As we got into this year and as the president got more and more frustrated and as he didn't want to [7:35] be told no, he wanted people who were going to help him get to a yes, you started seeing more [7:40] jockeying for power. I will say of Stephen Miller, it's not a binary, by the way, in terms of sort of [7:45] the Wiles faction versus the Miller faction. Miller is very good at cultivating relationships inside [7:50] the administration, very. He was very close with Steve Bannon at one point in term one, [7:55] but he was also very close with Jared and Ivanka in term one and remained that way. And so [8:00] I think that it's not quite where these lines clear where these lines play out, but it is ugly. [8:05] And a lot of it in other areas right now in terms of the fighting and it's spilling out onto social [8:10] media in a big way. Yeah. I mean, the statements alone are saying so much. [8:14] Right. Jared Kushner did praise Stephen Miller and Susie Wiles. [8:17] So did the whole cabinet in a statement that the White House put out. [8:20] Adam, I'm going to start with you. Uh, double down. That is what the president is doing here. [8:25] That is the signal that he is sending, um, by putting Stephen Miller into the most powerful [8:30] position in the White House, apart from the president himself. What do you think is going [8:34] on and what do you think it signals? Yeah, let's look at some numbers here for a second. [8:38] Yeah, let's look at some numbers here for a second. Republicans just lost Latino Americans [8:40] by 28-point swing towards Democrats. They lost Asian Americans with a 17-point swing towards Democrats. [8:48] People are rejecting Donald Trump. And after this overwhelming rejection, [8:52] he decided to double down and promote the most extreme, hateful, white nationalist, [8:58] insane person to the chief of staff position in the White House. He is doubling down on the hatred, [9:03] doubling down on the extremism. And rather than trying to reach out to the minority voters that he [9:07] just lost in huge swaths, he is deciding to go down that path even further. It's going to be a dark few [9:13] years, and Americans are going to reject this. Lydia, I mean, to Adam's point, it does seem like [9:19] Stephen Miller is Donald Trump's spirit animal. I mean, it's, it's, it's like his id unleashed in [9:25] some ways. Um, he could have made a number of different choices that might have signaled a [9:31] different path, but instead he really chose someone that is widely disliked and isn't known for his [9:37] conciliatory overtures to the left. So first, there is some important context. On election night, [9:43] Trump actually kind of extended an olive branch that he wanted to work with Democrats. And then [9:48] in the last 72 hours, we've seen, you know, the base just wants to go after this son of a bitch, [9:53] as Carville said. We've seen numerous tweets about lawfare, putting people in jail. And so I think [9:59] that has certainly informed Donald Trump's decision. He recognizes he needs somebody who's going to be a [10:03] fighter amid all of these investigations. One other point on Stephen Miller, you know, [10:07] obviously we know him best for his fiery moments on television, but he is actually involved in a lot [10:13] of different facets of the administration. He's well liked by the Maha group. He was involved with [10:18] UFOs, some of the doge efforts, and he's been on Capitol Hill. He understands the ins and outs of [10:24] policy. He spent his entire life doing this. So I think he is an important asset for the president. [10:30] One other point I want to make, you know, obviously, following a bloodbath for Republicans, [10:35] there's a moment where I think they're re-evaluating what did and more so what didn't work. [10:40] Are they? But one point, though, you're citing the doge effort as a success. [10:44] No, no, no, but one point I want to make is very clear that the war, the tariffs, the corruption, [10:51] the cost of living were, that's the reason why Republicans lost. If you look, if you look at the [10:58] immigration issue, surprisingly, that was one issue where Republicans were trusted more than Democrats. [11:03] Yeah, not anymore. I think, no, this exit poll. [11:06] These were in the exit polls. [11:07] I think Republicans discard immigration at their peril. I think, look, the way that that has been [11:12] enacted, particularly under Kristi Noem, where you have deportation Barbie taking photos in front of [11:17] prisons, that was not effective. If Miller can actually get this agenda done in an effective way, [11:23] that doesn't rely on ASMR and deportation videos, that's going to work. [11:27] What agenda, Lydia? What agenda is Stephen Miller actually going to get? [11:30] I'm pointing to the exit polling that shows voters prefer, [11:34] shockingly, Republicans to Democrats. That's the only issue. [11:37] On immigration, but I think you need to dissect that immigration policy. No one, I don't think, [11:44] will disagree that, yes, people did like the way Donald Trump secured the border. And there have been [11:50] Democrats that won this cycle that said as much. But you cannot sit here and honestly think that [11:58] the killing of Alex Preddy, the snatching of people, the man who did family separation, [12:04] which in the first Trump administration, is when polling started to go against Donald Trump on [12:10] his policies of immigration. That is Stephen Miller. And Stephen Miller also is a part of the [12:15] immigration overreach. That they went into cities and they snatched nannies and they took kids away [12:20] from their parents and they separated families. That is Stephen Miller. And that is, I think, [12:24] also a part of what... Wait, just one second. Terry, I mean, what I'm curious about here [12:29] is that you have had a historic loss. I mean, this is just not even a shellacking. This is, [12:34] I don't even know the word that we can use anymore to describe that now 75% of the country is going to be [12:39] governed by Democrats. This is an enormous rebuke. And the president seems to just be impervious to [12:46] that. What is he, what is he thinking is going to play out here for him, do you think? [12:50] Well, I think one of the things he wants Stephen Miller to do is fight the oversight that's coming [12:54] his way. And Miller will do that. He's a lawyer and he's going to be ferocious and just turn down [12:58] and try to tear apart any effort by the Democrats to get at what was one of the top issues in the campaign, [13:04] the corruption. The other thing he's trying to do is give a shot of energy into a demoralized [13:09] movement that he began 10 years ago that he saw disintegrating in front of his eyes. [13:15] And the way to do that is to say we are still here. The problem with Stephen Miller being the guy [13:20] for that is that, you know, corruption and affordability and corruption, the top two issues. [13:25] But within that, if you listen to people, the craziness. Yeah. [13:28] The daily Wagnerian, you know, of insanity, of rage. That politics is dead. [13:38] And Stephen Miller was the public face of immigration until the president looked at [13:42] the polls and realized people hate this guy. Yeah. [13:44] Well, then the Democrats should be celebrating this because at the end of the day, [13:47] they've got control of the house and they have the control of the Senate. What I think [13:51] the pushback is from Democrats is the fact that they actually have to go up against this guy. [13:56] He does, in fact, get the base of the MAGA movement excited. And that was a key issue going [14:02] into these midterms where they weren't as enthusiastic. And today, if you look at [14:06] how the MAGA base has responded, they're quite enthusiastic. They like this. And the other issue [14:11] here with Susie Wiles, number one, it's not unheard of, obviously, that you make changes after [14:16] a midterm loss. So pushing that part aside, Susie Wiles is not comfortable going on camera. [14:21] She's not comfortable fighting for the president in public. She does a lot of the work, [14:26] all of the work in the background. Stephen Miller, quite the opposite. And you might not like his [14:31] policies. Yeah. He's a policy wonk and he knows how to put together policies. [14:35] But Jason, here's the one thing I'll say is that do the Republicans like this, though? [14:38] They do. The Republican Party, you're talking the more conservative, sure. [14:43] Let me just say this. After the election, a lot of people came on and said, I think this is the end of MAGA. [14:49] Well, if we're still trying to revive MAGA, everyone, the 25%, the remaining 25% that are still in [14:55] Congress because the senators who weren't on the ballot, right, the governors who weren't up this, [15:00] does Stephen Miller help them in 2028? Does he help J.D. Vance? Does he help Marco Rubio? [15:05] Does he help Ted Cruz? Does he help Josh Hawley? He actually helps J.D. Vance, [15:09] but I don't think J.D. Vance can ultimately be helped, at least not in the short term. [15:12] I mean, we're talking about this as if there's some big master plan, and I am a little skeptical of this. [15:18] I want to play what actually Trump said about why he wanted to elevate Stephen Miller. [15:24] Stephen Miller as your wartime consigliere. Do you agree with that characterization? [15:33] Well, he's a great fighter. He's been with me right from the beginning, 2015. He was with me from [15:39] before 2016, 2015, and he's very loyal, smart. He does a great job. He's been an MVP every year. [15:47] He's been just great. So we're very happy with him. I mean, there it is. He's an MVP. He's a fighter. [15:54] And, you know, what we do understand, but let me finish. What we do understand is that Trump [16:02] still wants to pursue his agenda and wants to do it through executive action, sort of bypassing [16:07] the Congress. There's reporting to suggest that. And if that is your view, you don't want to cut [16:12] deals with the Democrats coming in. You don't want to, you want to pretend that this election [16:16] basically didn't happen. I guess Stephen Miller's your guy. [16:20] But none of that is accurate. He said he wants to actually negotiate, [16:24] but the Democrats have indicated just within the last two days that they're actually not interested. [16:28] He had a veto on his desk. So what you have to have happen is have someone there ready [16:33] to enact your agenda if you need to enact it in a more aggressive way. This idea that, of course, [16:38] he wants to go down the executive route. Well, yes, because he doesn't have control of the Congress. [16:45] Was this a mandate on Tuesday? Did Democrats get a mandate? [16:47] No. I don't believe in mandates in the sense [16:50] that you're talking about. And when again, when you look specifically at the exit polls, [16:53] when you look at what actually passed, there was a, there is undoubted truth. [16:58] You don't have to persuade me whether it was a mandate. I just want to know where you are. [17:01] Do you think Tuesday was a mandate? No. Did you think for progressive ideas? [17:05] Democrats? No, I think what the election was about was a rebuke of President Trump and the agenda [17:11] that did not work for him. Did you think 2024 was a mandate? No. [17:14] No. Did you? No. Again, so the way I generally look at these things is... [17:17] I think any politician who thinks any victory is a mandate is very short. [17:22] So you never thought 2024 was a mandate? Yeah, Adam. I think it's short-sighted. You're elected to [17:27] serve the people to think that you were appointed. I don't buy this. I'm presenting you believe that [17:32] it's a mandate for the Democrats to pursue, you know, whatever policies that they would [17:37] want to pursue over the course of the next few years. But again, if you look at the specific [17:40] issues in which people actually voted, you have two deeply blue states, Colorado and Washington state, [17:47] saying no to biological boys competing against girls. Come on, come on. [17:50] You have voter ID laws that were passed. And this is why we'll have 25% of government power. [17:54] Listen, you have California saying no. You could be deputy chief of staff right now. [17:58] You have California saying no to a billionaire tax. [18:03] Hold on. Jason, Jason, oh my. [18:06] Jason, you are using the same points that just caused Democrats to win Texas. You are repeating the [18:11] same, the same points about transgender people. I am telling you how they actually voted when the issue [18:16] was in front of them in a number of blue states. Let me point out really quickly, [18:20] Stephen Miller's appointment as chief of staff is going to backfire on Republicans. Americans voted [18:24] for less corruption and unity. You should celebrate it. Let me finish, [18:28] James Tallarico ran on a message of unity in Texas and he whooped the ass of your guy.