Macron hits back at Trump over Iran war and NATO

[0:00] French President Emmanuel Macron has sharply criticized Donald Trump's shifting stance on Iran [0:05] and his repeated attacks on NATO. [0:08] This after Washington urged partners to help reopen the Strait of Hormuz [0:12] and questioned their commitment to the alliance. [0:15] Speaking during a visit to South Korea, [0:17] Macron also rejected calls for military action to reopen the Strait of Hormuz, [0:23] warning such a move would be unrealistic and could dangerously escalate the conflict. [0:28] There are those who advocate for the idea of liberating the Strait of Hormuz by force [0:34] through a military operation, a position that has occasionally been expressed by the United States of America. [0:40] I say occasionally because it has varied. [0:43] It's never the option we have chosen, and we consider it unrealistic. [0:47] It's unrealistic because it would take an inordinate amount of time [0:50] and would expose anyone crossing the Strait to coastal threats from the Revolutionary Guards, [0:54] who possess significant resources, as well as ballistic missiles and a host of other risks. [0:59] Hind Zian is a political analyst and joins us now from Paris. [1:04] Welcome, Hind. [1:05] How significant is Emmanuel Macron's rejection of military action in the Strait of Hormuz [1:10] and the distancing from Washington that comes with it? [1:15] This is significant because, you know, these are two people in two countries [1:19] that have been allies for a long time and who actually still insist on being allies. [1:24] However, the American president, Donald Trump, believes that a true ally is going to be behind them [1:30] and will have their backs at. [1:32] Any point, especially at this point in their history. [1:35] So this is very important. [1:37] But it is also sort of predictable because, you know, France is a country that gives a lot of importance to diplomacy, to negotiations. [1:45] So the president, the French president, is only following a certain line. [1:49] But by distancing himself, I don't believe that he wants to break with the president or with the USA. [1:55] He's only reaffirming the necessity of a diplomatic solution because he believes. [2:01] And that's something that he said. [2:02] A couple of times. [2:02] A couple of hours ago that any military action to to make sure that the Strait is workable again is absolutely unrealistic and won't work. [2:12] And he actually says that reopening Hormuz can only happen in consultation with Iran. [2:18] Is that pragmatism then or a fundamentally different worldview from the man who currently runs the United States? [2:27] Yes, I believe. [2:28] Well, first, there is a difference in worldviews because they are very different people because they, [2:34] of course, come from very different cultures and backgrounds. [2:36] So they have a vision of diplomacy. [2:39] They have a vision of the life between states that is very different. [2:44] President Emmanuel Macron has a vision that is very classical, traditional, which says that it is important to discuss things even with your enemy, [2:53] because that's what he said a couple of years ago when he was talking about Russia and the Russia and Ukraine conflict. [3:01] And on the other hand, the president is a very radical. [3:03] Right. [3:03] Radical, but also a very straight to the point kind of person. [3:07] So he believes that actually talking is not useful. [3:11] What works is guns is actually a sort of conflict, open conflict. [3:16] And that's how he's going to have the answer. [3:18] We have to keep in mind that this is a president who has used economic weapons, but also actual weapons in this war to to get what he wants. [3:28] So he believes that the art of a deal actually requires you to. [3:33] To make sure that the enemy is scared of you, and it also means that you're going to have at some point to use the military on the opposite. [3:41] Emmanuel Macron is absolutely not on the same page as him, and he believes that it is important, even if it is somebody like a state that is very irrational like that of Iran. [3:52] It is important to keep space for negotiations. [3:54] What risk does France see in a military attempt to reopen the Strait? [4:00] Well, there are a couple of risks. [4:01] The major risk is actually escalation. [4:04] Because we're talking. [4:05] About your a war that has spread to the countries in the region very quickly. [4:11] So France and Emmanuel Macron are very afraid that some of their allies, France has strategic and and diplomatic and defense ties with a couple of countries in the in the region, with Qatar, with Jordan, with Lebanon, with the UAE. [4:27] And so there is this fear that this escalation that we've seen in the past month is actually just the beginning. [4:35] And if we go a bit deeper in the conflict, it might just get even worse for these countries that are very important for France. [4:42] The second fear is obviously that this this regime in Iran is going to get even more scared, more radical and that the impact on the economy, the world economy is going to be worse if they feel like they have to fight to the death because this is existential for them. [4:58] And we have to keep in mind that there is another front that's been opened a couple of days ago by the Houthis. [5:05] rebels who are in Yemen and who are close to the Iran regime and who are partners and allies of the [5:11] regime and who could threaten the Red Sea and the commerce through the Red Sea. Now, Trump has [5:18] lashed out against NATO, calling it a paper tiger. If the U.S. is willing to act alone and then go [5:25] and question the Defense Alliance, what does that do to the credibility of NATO? Yeah, so it's [5:33] interesting, this paper tiger expression, because it was actually used by Mao Zedong, the former [5:39] leader of China, first to describe the Japanese imperialists and then to describe the United [5:46] States. And he was saying back then to a journalist that he believed that the U.S.A. is actually just [5:52] a paper tiger because it's not a power that is as absolute as it appeared. So now it's interesting [5:59] that the American president, and this is not the first time that he uses this word, [6:03] this expression. He already used it for Russia as well a couple of months ago. And he uses this [6:09] expression for allies, for friends. So it means that his vision of this alliance is very different [6:16] from that of the other leaders and particularly from that of the European leaders. And so that [6:23] puts NATO in a position that is very tough because it's being questioned by its core member. The [6:33] U.S.A. doesn't want to be part of this alliance. It doesn't want to be part of NATO. And as a matter [6:39] of fact, historically speaking, without the U.S.A., there would be no NATO. And there are a [6:45] lot of people, especially a lot of political leaders in Europe today and in France, they're [6:50] saying that tomorrow if the U.S.A. doesn't want to be part of this alliance, that there can be no [6:56] alliance. And this basically would mean the end of the world that was constructed and built after the [7:03] second world war. [7:03] Is there a sense in France that this kind of moment was always going to come when it came to the [7:12] United States and the reliability? [7:16] Absolutely. You know, this goes far back to the 60s. The 60s and the president of France, [7:22] General de Gaulle, Charles de Gaulle, who's a hero in France and who was part of the resistance [7:28] during the second world war, he said in the 60s that it was absolutely essential for Europe and [7:34] for France to have a strong alliance with NATO. And he said that it was absolutely essential for [7:35] France to have a strong alliance with NATO. And he said that it was absolutely essential for Europe [7:35] and France to build its own autonomy, strategic autonomy, but also defense autonomy, to be able to [7:41] exist independently. That never meant breaking with the U.S.A., severing ties with the USA, [7:48] not being allies with the U.S.A., but it meant being independent. It meant having its own weapons, [7:54] having its own nuclear weapon, and being an actual continent that is capable of defending [8:00] itself. So this goes back a long way. And General de Gaulle was… [8:05] the founder of the Fifth Republic, which is the current Republic of France. So Macron is actually [8:11] just a true heir, at least in this area, of the first president of this current republic. [8:18] But let me jump in there, because the question is, of course, France is uniquely well-positioned [8:24] within Europe, but Europe as a whole, are they actually capable of acting independently from [8:30] the U.S. in a crisis like the one we're seeing right now? Or is that aspirational? [8:39] At this point, it is true that it is aspirational, because Europe has depended on the U.S. for [8:46] decades. And this was actually a choice. After the Second World War, Europeans chose to focus [8:52] on the economic front, to focus on being prosperous, because there was a war that was [8:58] unacceptable. The First World War was already unacceptable for the population here. And so [9:02] there was [9:03] It's a form of trauma that turned into we are not going to fight any wars again because [9:08] we're sick of war. [9:09] So we're going to let the USA help us with that defense side of our protection and we're [9:14] going to focus on the economy. [9:16] But that was sort of wishful thinking because no country can actually at least independent [9:21] country can actually survive by externalizing its defense. [9:26] So at this point, because we have been in Europe living in this type of mechanism for [9:32] decades, it will take time. [9:34] But there is a will, especially in France, but also in other countries of Europe, to [9:40] make sure that there is a defense strategy in on the European continent. [9:47] And I believe actually this is the only way forward, even if it takes time, because when [9:52] you look at the blocks in the world today, the USA, China, Russia, if Europe doesn't [9:59] actually have its own independent strategy. [10:02] Military strategy, but specifically defense, then it's just going to become a prey of the [10:07] big powers. [10:09] So this is actually a sort of a conundrum. [10:11] We know in Europe that it is hard because we've been depending on the USA for a long [10:16] time. [10:17] But we also know that it's time to be independent because this world is a tough one, especially [10:22] for those that can defend themselves, a reckoning happening in Europe and France willing to [10:27] take the lead. [10:28] That was political analyst Hintzian. [10:29] We appreciate your time. [10:30] Thanks so much. [10:33] Thank you for having me. [10:34] Thank you.