Secretary of Commerce Howard Lutnick faces a budget hearing

[0:00] Good morning. Subcommittee will be in order. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess at any time. [0:10] I would like to welcome everyone to this hearing. [0:18] I also want to welcome a new member to the Appropriations Committee and to CJS, Representative Jefferson Shreve. Welcome, sir. [0:33] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [0:34] I know he will be a strong voice for Indiana on the committee. First one in the last, is it 40 years? [0:43] 30. [0:46] And we look forward to working together. [0:49] Likewise. [0:50] Thank you to our subcommittee members and to Secretary Lutnick for joining us to discuss the Department of Commerce fiscal year 27 budget request. [1:03] The request for the Department of Commerce totals $9.2 billion, a $1.8 billion or 16.5 percent decrease from the current level. [1:20] The request reiterates and builds on the budget the president submitted to Congress last year. [1:27] He seeks to reinforce and expand on efforts to counter the strong-arm trade tactics of China and refocuses the Department's trade activities on investments that create jobs in America and protect national security. [1:47] The Department of Commerce has a wide-ranging portfolio that must level an international trade landscape tilted against America, foster economic growth, conduct weather research and response, and produce statistics about our nation and economy. [2:14] These responsibilities are bound together by the common goal of ensuring American prosperity. [2:24] Its investments and resources are invaluable to rural communities like my district in eastern Kentucky. [2:33] From NOAA's weather forecasters, who provide severe weather warnings when seconds count, to EDA's essential work to grow economic opportunity, and the BEAD program's expansion of high speed, reliable broadband to rural areas, opening opportunities, and improving lives. [3:03] The Department's vital mission requires strong leadership and strong oversight. [3:11] I would like to note that the committee only just this week received the Department's complete Fiscal Year 26 spend plans and detailed budget request documents for Fiscal Year 27. [3:28] Additionally, the Department must ensure response to written questions from subcommittee members. [3:38] Secretary Lutnik, these areas of communication and responsiveness should be a priority of yours. [3:48] With that said, I look forward to hearing how this budget request furthers our shared goals. [3:56] Let me recognize now the ranking member of the subcommittee, Ms. Ming. [4:01] Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to join you in welcoming Secretary Lutnik back to this subcommittee and also welcome our new member on the subcommittee, Mr. Shreve. [4:14] At a time when American families are struggling with the high cost of gas, groceries, housing, and other essentials, the Trump administration is proposing a commerce budget that would make things worse. [4:27] The fiscal year 27 budget requests would hurt American jobs, small businesses, and economically distressed communities by completely eliminating Economic Development Administration grants and gutting the ITA's efforts to expand U.S. exports. [4:45] The administration is once again proposing to zero out the Manufacturing Extension Partnership Program, which helps small and medium-sized U.S. manufacturers create and preserve U.S. manufacturing jobs. [4:59] It also is again proposing to defund the Minority Business Development Agency after attempting to illegally shut it down. [5:08] And the administration is proposing to rescind all of the remaining funding for the Digital Equity Program, which Congress appropriated on a bipartisan basis to help veterans, seniors, rural communities, and people with disabilities afford and make full use of high-speed Internet. [5:27] The American economy and hardworking Americans are getting squeezed, yet at the same time, Secretary Lutnik's own family has greatly benefited from many of the deals that have been [5:39] arranged by the Commerce Department over the past year. [5:43] According to a New York Times investigation in November, never in modern U.S. history has the Office of the Secretary of Commerce intersected so broadly and deeply with the financial interests of the Commerce Secretary's own family. [5:57] Furthermore, the Commerce Department has been plagued by mismanagement over the past year, beginning with the damage done by Elon Musk's Doge. [6:06] Last year, Secretary Lutnik, you told this subcommittee that no Weather Service meteorologists were fired, when in fact many meteorologists were fired. [6:15] We learned in a hearing before this subcommittee last month that the Department of the National Weather Service still have not backfilled all of the National Weather Service's frontline staff positions that were so needlessly lost last year. [6:30] The Department's responsiveness, or lack thereof, to this committee has also been concerning. [6:36] More than ten months after our subcommittee submitted questions for the record following the Secretary's last appearance, we still have received no answers. [6:46] The Department also failed to submit its fiscal year 26 spend plan in accordance with the legal deadline, as all of the spend plans were four or more weeks late, and we only this week received the spend plans for the Department's [7:00] largest bureau, NOAA, and for the Minority Business Development Agency, which were legally due to our Appropriations Committee a month and a half ago. [7:10] The Department's fiscal year 27 budget justification documents were also late in being publicly released. [7:18] All of these delays are completely unacceptable and obstruct our committee's ability to conduct oversight and to make informed decisions about the federal budget on behalf of the American people. [7:30] Finally, I was disturbed to learn from disclosures in the Epstein files that Secretary Lutnik had personal and business interactions with Jeffrey Epstein for years after Epstein was registered as a sex offender. [7:45] Secretary Lutnik previous claimed that he cut ties with Mr. Epstein in 05, but the Epstein files show the Secretary took a trip to Epstein's private island in 2012, [7:56] four years after Epstein's conviction for solicitation of prostitution from a minor. [8:01] The Secretary's dishonesty calls into question the truthfulness of other statements he has made to Congress on the record. [8:08] The American people deserve honesty from those with the privilege of holding public office, and I will say once again that the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's horrific crimes deserve truth, accountability, and justice. [8:21] I look forward to the Secretary's testimony and to answers to the many questions that my colleagues and I have. [8:28] Thank you, and I yield back. [8:30] Thank you, Ms. Ming. [8:31] I'd like now to recognize the ranking member of the full committee, Ms. DeLauro. [8:39] Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and ranking member Meng, for covering, convening this hearing today. [8:47] And thank you, Secretary Lutnik, for being here and listening to your testimony and have a good back and forth and give and take on questioning. [8:55] From where I'm sitting, it is difficult to view the Trump administration's trade policy as anything short of disastrous. [9:06] The President ignited a global economic crisis by imposing significant taxes on American consumers without any thought to whom they were taxing or why they were imposing these taxes in the first place. [9:23] In case my colleagues have forgotten, in April of last year, the President announced he was imposing a 10% tariff on almost every country in the world, [9:34] including a group of volcanic islands that are populated not by people but by penguins. [9:40] This would be amusing if not for the fact that this lazy and haphazard application of tariffs has had such a harmful effect on American consumers. [9:51] Data from the Yale Budget Lab found that the President's trade war increased the cost of food for American families by $1,700 throughout 2025. [10:04] Minor changes in our trade deficit are cold comfort to anyone who has to pay attention to the price of groceries. [10:12] Although, I understand, there are not many people in the President's Cabinet who fall into this category. [10:19] If the purpose of implementing these tariffs and price hikes on consumers was to promote U.S. job growth, it failed. [10:28] The U.S. economy created less than 600,000 jobs in 2025. [10:34] In 2024, before the President took office and put these tariffs in place, that number was 2 million. [10:40] When all was said and done, at the end of 2025, unemployment was up and the economy had the worst year for job growth since 2020, the last year of President Trump's prior term. [10:56] Earlier this year, we learned that the tariffs the President chose to charge American consumers were not only ill-advised, but also illegal, according to the Supreme Court. [11:07] And now, after charging higher prices because of these illegal tariffs, American companies are trying to get their money back from the government. [11:16] American consumers, on the other hand, working families who are struggling to keep up with the rising cost of living, they get no relief. [11:26] I've introduced legislation, the Tariff Relief for Consumers Act, to ensure that refund dollars provide relief for consumers and small businesses and do not simply line the pockets of large corporations and other importers. [11:41] The American people are fed up with this administration's gross mismanagement of the economy. [11:47] A poll released earlier this week, an Associated Press poll, found that 70% of Americans disapprove of the President's handling of the economy, while only 30% approve. [11:59] Mr. Secretary, I appreciate that you are here today to tout what you believe the administration's accomplishments on trade and the economy are. [12:08] But 7 in 10 Americans are not buying what this administration is selling. [12:14] Given the increasingly dire economic outlook, I would have thought that the Trump administration would look to shore up its domestic economic programs, [12:23] to find ways to pull us out of this hole that they have been digging. [12:26] Unfortunately, the President's budget request does just the opposite. [12:31] The administration is proposing to eliminate all Economic Development Administration grants, claw back another $63 million in grant funding that was already approved in this body on a bipartisan basis. [12:43] The EDA helps create jobs, especially in rural areas. [12:47] From 2018 to 2024, the EDA created or retained more than 727,000 jobs and spurred more than $80 billion in private investment. [12:58] I know I do not need to sell you on the Economic Development Administration, Mr. Secretary, [13:05] given that during your confirmation hearing, you expressed support for the program and said that you intended to maintain it. [13:13] The President's budget also proposes eliminating the Manufacturing Extension Partnership Program, [13:18] which is designed to help small and medium-sized American manufacturers grow, creating more jobs and stimulating local economies. [13:26] I thought the whole point of the trade war was to support American manufacturing. [13:31] It has obviously failed in that respect, so why eliminate a longstanding program that actually helps solve the problem? [13:38] It does not make any sense. [13:40] You've eliminated the Minority Business Development Agency, and again, in your confirmation testimony, you assured it. [13:47] You did not support dismantling this program. [13:50] Currently, there is a permanent injunction blocking the implementation, but still the administration proposes the elimination of the Minority Business Development Agency. [14:01] You cut funds for the International Trade Administration. [14:04] The administration proposes clawing back a total of more than $2.3 billion from funding under the Commerce Department. [14:12] In addition to the EDA, the administration is proposing to rescind funding that was passed. [14:18] I want to repeat, we passed as an appropriations committee Democrats, Republicans, House, and Senate. [14:24] We appropriated this money. [14:28] It was part of the bipartisan infrastructure law, as well as clawing back money and rescinding funding for operations, research, and facilities at NOAA. [14:38] Lastly, the President's request proposes cutting the budget for the Office of the Inspector General at the Commerce Department by $10 million, more than a fifth of your current funding. [14:49] We have seen how officials in this administration have exploited the public trust for private gain. [14:55] It is deeply concerning to see that the Internal Oversight Office charged with preventing waste, fraud, and abuse is being defunded under this budget. [15:04] The American people should have faith that government officials are working in their interest and are not just out to make a quick buck for themselves. [15:14] I look forward to hearing your testimony and, again, your answers to our questions. [15:19] Thank you very much for being here, Mr. Secretary. [15:22] I thank the Chairman and I yield back. [15:24] Thank you, Mr. Lara. [15:27] I would now like to recognize our witness, Secretary Butnik, for an opening statement. [15:35] Without objection, your written statement will be entered into the record. [15:41] Mr. Secretary, we're delighted to have you with us. [15:46] This is your official Congressional Oversight Subcommittee. [15:51] We want to be helpful to you in your duties, and we want to know some answers that we all have. [16:02] So, Mr. Secretary, thank you for being here. [16:05] The floor is yours. [16:06] Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for having me here. [16:15] Thank you, Representative Meng, and the members of the subcommittee. [16:22] I appreciate you having me here today, and welcome, and welcome. [16:28] Over the past 15 months, President Trump has proven that the American economy is the strongest and most resilient in the world. [16:36] When businesses look for the place to expand manufacturing, they drive innovation, and they hire more workers, [16:43] they are decisively choosing the United States. [16:46] Micron, for example, $200 billion investment in memory semiconductor manufacturing in Idaho, upstate New York, and Virginia. [16:55] TSMC's $165 billion advanced manufacturing investment in America's semiconductor logic sector. [17:03] Texas Instruments' $60 billion investment for seven US semiconductor fabs across three manufacturing mega sites, Texas and Utah, [17:12] are just a few examples of the Trump administration's commitment to driving semiconductor investment and bringing jobs back to the United States. [17:21] I could spend our entire time together listing the record-setting commitments company after company and industry after industry have made to build in America. [17:31] Trillions of dollars of capital investment are pouring into America, led by President Trump and the United States Department of Commerce. [17:39] I'm proud of the leadership role the Department of Commerce has played in providing the support and encouragement these businesses need to revive American manufacturing, and we have only just begun. [17:50] Over the past few months alone, the Department of Commerce has announced multiple $15 billion-plus record-setting critical energy investments across this country. [18:01] From Pennsylvania and Georgia to Texas and Tennessee, it will accelerate economic growth, ensure US energy dominance, bolster critical supply chains, and strengthen US national and economic security. [18:13] In addition to the massive historic trade agreements with Korea and Taiwan, the impressive $550 billion trade deal with Japan has announced six projects in the past six months, [18:26] which include $40 billion for small modular reactors in Tennessee and Alabama, a $33 billion 9.2 gigawatt natural gas-fired facility in Ohio, [18:39] a $17 billion natural gas-fired power generation hub in Southwest Pennsylvania, and $16 billion for natural gas in East Texas. [18:50] That goes on top of $2 billion for a deepwater crude oil export terminal in the Gulf of America, and $600 million for a critical high-pressure, high-temperature synthetic diamond grit facility in Georgia. [19:03] Just last month, Secretary Wright and I were in Southern Ohio to break ground on that 9.2 gigawatt natural gas facility. [19:10] This project will develop the largest natural gas facility in history. [19:16] It will lower electricity costs across the region, create thousands and thousands of American jobs, strengthen our national security, and help the US meet the energy needs of our future. [19:29] Beyond these historic investments, the Department of Commerce continues to work around the clock to implement President Trump's America First trade policy. [19:37] Under Section 232, the Commerce Department is taking action on steel, aluminum, copper, pharmaceuticals, autos, semiconductors, and investigating other sectors to protect, reshore, and revive manufacturing. [19:50] These actions have led to multi-billion dollar commitments to reshore steel and aluminum manufacturing and restore American excellence in critical industries. [19:59] In the first year of his second term, President Trump has dramatically reduced the trade deficit, lowering imports, and increasing exports. [20:06] The exports went to $3.4 trillion, which is a 6% increase from 2024. [20:12] And in 2025, the trade deficit was the lowest we've seen in 16 years. [20:17] I'm proud of the role I played in negotiating our most important trade agreement, including the largest deal ever done, which was our trade deal and investment deal with the European Union. [20:27] BIS is working hand-in-hand with the Department of Health and Human Services. [20:34] We've arranged historic agreements to lower drug prices for American consumers, negotiating most favored nation deals, [20:41] and ensuring Americans pay the lowest prices for innovative medicines. [20:46] As a result of these deals, additionally, we have secured over $400 billion in commitments to reshore pharmaceuticals and manufacturing in America, [20:59] those key pharmaceuticals. [21:01] The budget includes a $215 million increase to BIS above the 2026 enacted level, which supports the hiring of hundreds of new special agent law enforcement officials to address the theft of American technological leadership by bad actors. [21:16] These officers are critical to protecting and defending America's innovation. [21:21] In ITA, we are driving record foreign direct investment, cracking down on harmful foreign trade practices, and supporting our 1.3 million American jobs with export and investment deals. [21:32] In 2025, ITA helped Boeing, Wabtec, and other major American companies secure a record $244 billion in contracts with foreign public buyers. [21:43] This exceeds the $17 billion that the Biden administration did in its first year. [21:50] The budget includes a $10 million increase to the 2026 enacted level for trade enforcement in ITA, and $100 million for the United States Investment Accelerator. [22:02] The budget slashes unnecessary wasteful spending at NIST and other groups and eliminates the Manufacturing Extension Partnership, which I'm sure we will talk about. [22:15] At the USPTO, we are rapidly modernizing and leveraging technology to cut classification prep dramatically. [22:23] We want to get rid of the massive backlog that we had and do a much better job. [22:29] And finally, we have launched a new era of modernization of NOAA, where we are in the process of transferring the agency's IT system from a decades-old hard-wired technology to the modern distributed cloud. [22:42] This update will improve our forecasting capabilities, transform the way our forecasters do their jobs, and will make Americans safer. [22:50] The budget also includes a $135 million increase to the 2026 enacted level for NOAA shipbuilding and our improvement of unmanned systems programs. [23:02] For far too long, our nation was mired in status quo, leaving American consumers and producers alike with unfair, poorly implemented trade deals, outsourced jobs, and poultry investments that failed to meet our country's potential. [23:15] President Trump is committed to ushering in a golden age of domestic commerce and bringing jobs back to the United States, and that's exactly what he's done in his first 15 months of this administration. [23:25] I look forward to working with you as the Department continues to spur economic growth and secure unprecedented prosperity for the American people. [23:35] Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for having me here today. [23:37] Thank you, Mr. Secretary. [23:41] We will now proceed under the five-minute rule for questions. [23:47] I will begin by recognizing myself. [23:52] Secretary, the request for the Bureau of Industry and Security, which is instrumental to the nation's export control system, seeks to nearly double the size of the Bureau's annual appropriation. [24:13] How would this historic investment help counter China? [24:20] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [24:25] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [24:26] BIS is the front line and our key defense from China trying to get our best chips and our best technology, which we have export controls and we don't allow them to get. [24:40] But if we don't have the law enforcement officials and we can't stop them, then they'll find their way around our rules. [24:49] And so we want to significantly grow our law enforcement special agents at BIS and their returns are remarkable. [24:58] I know on the budget we talk about expense, but these agents bring between three and ten times their revenue annually in fines. [25:08] Not only do they stop these companies, but then we fine these companies and make way, way more revenue for the United States of America. [25:17] But that budget is two sides. [25:19] The revenue is not part of my budget, just the expense. [25:22] But I want you to know these agents are massively economically and intellectually important to the United States. [25:34] On this topic, how is the department using its export control authority to prevent sensitive U.S. technologies from ending up in the hands of our adversaries? [25:48] We use at BIS our export control to make sure that the countries of concern and countries that are our adversaries cannot get our best technology. [26:06] We don't want them to get our best chips. [26:08] We don't want them to get our best software. [26:11] We want to make sure that we, who are the innovator in the world, remain far in the lead. [26:19] And so this group is the front line that holds those back. [26:25] And we continuously discuss across this administration, each and every product, work together as an administration to make sure that those countries are not getting our best technology and innovations. [26:38] How is BIS partnering with other law enforcement agencies? [26:45] We work extremely well with Customs and Border Patrol. [26:51] Right. [26:52] That is a key place. [26:53] DHS is very close with us. [26:56] The FBI is very close with us. [26:58] The DOJ, we just had a huge criminal action where a company was, a large company was trying to ship billions of dollars of our best chips to China. [27:11] And they were arrested together with DOJ. [27:14] So we work very closely with law enforcement. [27:16] These are the intellectual law enforcement agents of the U.S. government. [27:23] They're in BIS. [27:24] They have badges and guns, but they work closely with other law enforcement to make sure those who are trying to steal our best can't get away with it. [27:34] Let me talk with you briefly about the important work of EDA in rural communities like mine. [27:48] The assistance to coal communities supports areas negatively impacted by changes in the coal economy. [27:58] I've seen the devastation that a local economic downturn can cause to a small community and the positive impact that economic development program have in the aftermath to support recovery and foster economic growth. [28:20] I think the coal program can and is very important. [28:31] And we can help these communities. [28:33] You know, the Trump administration just announced the deal in Pennsylvania to open two very large coal mines. [28:39] We are very pro clean, beautiful coal, as you know. [28:44] The EDA has significant appropriations, and I will make sure to get that money out the door efficiently, effectively, and with deep consideration. [28:57] If you appropriate it, I will make sure and our department will make sure we do it as smart and efficiently as possible. [29:04] Prior administrations sat on these. [29:07] That is not this department. [29:09] This department will have the appropriated money that you have given us for EDA smartly, efficiently, and effectively out the door by the end of this year. [29:19] NTIA, under your leadership, was able to refocus the broadband equity access and deployment program on maximizing taxpayer value. [29:35] Kentucky was allocated $1.1 billion under the program and had plans approved for about $400 million to expand broadband access. [29:52] When will NTIA provide Kentucky guidance on eligible uses for the remaining $700 million? [30:03] For the bead program, Congress had allocated $42 billion when I walked in the door. [30:15] And you had a set of rules on who to cover for all each state and their teams were amazing. [30:23] Working with the states was amazing and working with Kentucky was very impressive. [30:27] Your team did a great job. [30:29] But they were only going to give it to fiber and spend all $42 billion in a one size fits all model, which made no sense. [30:37] You had some people $150,000 fiber run to a house that was worth $100,000. [30:44] It was crazy town. [30:45] So we rebid it without any technological limitations. [30:52] If it's satellite, if it's, you know, fixed wireless, if it's fiber, whatever's best. [30:58] And we executed the plan for $21 billion exactly according to the statute. [31:05] Half the money. [31:06] So we now have a high class problem. [31:09] We have 20. [31:10] We have executed what you wanted to do exactly right for $21 billion. [31:14] And we have $21 billion remaining. [31:16] So here's what we did. [31:17] We went on a listening tour. [31:19] We had over a thousand people gave us hundreds and hundreds of comments. [31:23] We're sorting through those hundreds of comments. [31:25] And we're going to come out with a plan for the high class problem of having absolutely executed the model that you gave us to go out and now do new and exciting things with that money in the model of the statute that you've given us. [31:41] Thank you, sir. [31:45] Ms. May. [31:48] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [31:49] And first, before I begin my question, I just want to say that it's great to hear that you, [31:54] Mr. Secretary, and the Trump administration is continuing the great investments that were made into our domestic chips manufacturing, [32:04] started by the Biden administration, Biden-Harris administration, whether it's TSMC, Micron, Texas Instruments, billions were invested during the Biden administration. [32:18] And I was grateful as a New Yorker to see the investments in Micron in my home and your home state of New York. [32:26] And we were so thrilled to welcome President Joe Biden to announce them during his administration. [32:33] But I do want to start, Mr. Secretary. [32:36] I mentioned in my opening statement that we had learned in recent months that contrary to your earlier statement in which you suggested that you had cut off all contact with Epstein in 05, [32:49] you and your family had in fact had lunch with Mr. Epstein on a boat during a trip to his private island in 2012 and exchanged business emails with him as recently as 2018. [33:01] This was years after his 2008 conviction for soliciting prostitution from a minor. [33:08] I just wanted to ask, why did you publicly claim following your nomination that you were never in a room with him after 2005? [33:16] So I have voluntarily agreed in less than two weeks to sit with your colleagues in the house and answer any and all questions on this topic. [33:33] I have nothing to hide and I am glad to answer their questions. [33:36] Whatever questions you have on this topic, I will be glad to answer. [33:41] It's in less than two weeks and we've set aside the time to do that. [33:45] And I will answer all the questions. [33:47] So whatever questions you have, if you would give them to your colleagues, I will answer them. [33:52] But today I am here to testify about the budget. [33:55] I've set aside voluntarily the time to answer those questions in less than two weeks. [34:00] So today I am here to testify about the budget. [34:03] No, I appreciate that and we'll definitely make sure that that message and offer is emphasized. [34:10] When Senator Van Hollen in February asked if you would be willing to share any records that you have, you told them that you would surely talk about that. [34:20] You had nothing to hide. [34:21] You know, what if anything have you done since that hearing to ensure that you are sharing all of your records? [34:28] I've set aside in less than two weeks the time that your House colleagues want to have me answer these questions. [34:40] I am here to testify about the budget, but I have set aside voluntarily the time to answer these questions. [34:46] And as you correctly have said, I have nothing to hide. [34:50] Okay, I just, you know, why I'm asking is because our American public deserves honesty and accountability from those of us who have the privilege of holding public office. [35:01] This is a budget hearing, but it's also about our American taxpayers' money. [35:06] The survivors of Epstein and his associates' horrific crimes deserve so much better from this government. [35:14] I do want to use the rest of my time to ask about the gold card visa program. [35:20] President Trump directed you in coordination with the Secretary of State and Homeland to establish a gold card visa program. [35:27] As you know, people who are able to pay at least $1 million into Commerce's gift account are eligible for permanent legal residence and potentially citizenship. [35:39] I wanted to ask how many of these applications have been approved and how many gifts have been received by Commerce? [35:50] The process was recently resolved with DHS, who runs the program, and they do a $15,000, the most serious vetting and analysis of any potential applicant in the history of government. [36:10] Usually it was $600. These pay $15,000 for an extraordinary vet. [36:16] So they have approved recently one person, and there are hundreds in the queue that they are going through the process. [36:22] But this is a new program, and they've just set it up, and they wanted to make sure they did it perfectly. [36:27] And so we've worked through that. [36:29] But it's a DHS program done with a rigorous, rigorous vetting. [36:34] And do you know how the department would intend to spend the billions of dollars in the gift account? [36:41] That will be determined by the administration, and its terms are for the betterment of the United States of America. [36:51] It needs to be for commerce and the betterment of the United States of America. [36:55] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. [36:56] Thank you, Ms. Ming. [36:59] Mr. Alford. [37:01] Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. [37:06] Thank you, Ranking Member Ming and our Ranking Member of our full committee. Good to see you. [37:12] And thank you, Secretary, for being here today. [37:15] You know, we depend on the Department of Commerce to play a central role in supporting American competitiveness through weather forecasting, [37:22] standard development, trade enforcement, and economic development in communities all over our great nation. [37:28] The fiscal year 27 proposal reflects the administration's effort to streamline operations, to prioritize core missions, [37:37] and to make sure that taxpayer resources are focused where they can have the greatest impact. [37:42] With proposed budget adjustments across NOAA, NIST, EDA, and ITA, [37:48] I look forward to hearing how the department will continue delivering strong, reliable services while advancing productivity and modernization. [37:56] I want to talk a little bit about weather. [37:58] I think last time you were here, we had a very robust conversation about NOAA. [38:04] I'm glad to say that our operation in Pleasant Hill, Missouri, is still operating with humans. [38:10] And thank you for that. [38:14] It's tornado season in Missouri. [38:16] And we had an EF1 hit not too far from my home last week in Belton, Missouri. [38:22] It did minimal damage. [38:24] The next few days could become an outbreak for tornadoes in the Kansas City area. [38:29] Sunday and Monday is not looking good. [38:32] The FY27 budget proposal includes $70 million in procurement funding for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, [38:41] including investments in next generation weather satellites. [38:45] How will these planned upgrades translate into benefits for my constituents? [38:50] The National Weather Service had been sort of had walls around itself, right? [38:59] We had satellites. [39:01] We used the data we had for satellites. [39:03] We'd launch balloons. [39:04] We used the data that we captured from balloons. [39:08] We have our own tracking aircraft. [39:11] We are now going to buy data. [39:13] That $70 million allows us to buy data available on commercial satellites. [39:18] So take in more data, give up none, but add data, right? [39:23] Have unmanned aircraft that can go into the hurricane and stay there without the risk of loss of life, right? [39:31] Think of how much better that is. [39:32] They can live inside the hurricane. [39:34] And you know how horrifically scary tornadoes are. [39:38] And the ability to warn early on tornadoes is absolutely difficult. [39:45] And but I, you know, the people at the National Weather Service have been the most impressive. [39:51] They are the most dedicated, most loyal. [39:53] And they work their tails off. [39:55] And you see when it becomes risky, you've never seen people pour in to try to help. [40:00] And that's why we need to have an automated model so that the people in the next town, right, those forecasters can get the same data and assist. [40:10] And we can have the whole set of meteorologists and hydrologists help. [40:15] And that's what I'm going to leave this department with. [40:18] The most modern National Weather Service ever that will help protect and defend all of us because we rely on it. [40:26] And it's really important to you and really important to me. [40:28] I appreciate that, Mr. Secretary. [40:29] I'm also proud to support the University of Missouri's research reactor, MER, the most powerful university-based reactor in the country. [40:36] It is a critical national supplier, as you know, of life-saving medical isotopes that treat cancer patients each and every year. [40:44] We're trying to raise the money now for a second reactor. [40:47] It is it's it's a game changer in medicine. [40:51] How will commerce continue to support university-linked research facilities such as reactor operations? [40:57] Our university system is one of the great assets of our country and our tech hubs and our on our biology work, medical work. [41:11] These are these are extraordinary opportunities. [41:13] And we are focused on making sure that the universities work together in consortia with business to create the best outcomes. [41:21] Right. That's we are very, very focused on outcomes. [41:25] And that's what matters the most to commerce, is that we want to make sure if you out, you know, appropriate money that we're going to get the benefit of the bargain for the American people and be great stewards of the money you give us. [41:37] Mr. Secretary, thank you for your service. And with that, I yield back, chair. [41:41] Mr. Lola. [41:44] Mr. Secretary, during the campaign, the president made a lot of promises about trade policy. [42:04] And I quote, you would put more money into our pockets and create millions and millions of new manufacturing jobs. [42:15] I mentioned earlier in my opening remarks, I think hardworking families are not really feeling this reality. [42:23] The president's tariffs have exacerbated the cost of living crisis that people are experiencing today. [42:29] I know the president says it's not an affordability crisis. [42:33] That's a hoax. But talk to working Americans every day. [42:38] They are living paycheck to paycheck. It's tough. [42:41] And American families now have paid more than $1,700 each in tariff costs last year. [42:47] And so things are now worse because of the president's war of choice with Iran. [42:52] And we see the price of gasoline going up. [42:55] The president made promises also about manufacturing. [42:59] And the U.S. trade deficit in manufactured goods was $62 billion higher in 2025 compared to 2024. [43:08] Not exactly the manufacturing renaissance that was promised. [43:12] So let me ask you, Secretary, and I asked Ambassador Greer the same question last week. [43:17] And let me ask this of you. [43:19] Do you know how many manufacturing jobs the United States lost per day last year, [43:25] the first year of President Trump's second term? [43:28] I don't know that statistic one way or the other. [43:34] Let me just say this is according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics data. [43:39] U.S. manufacturing lost more than 100 jobs per day from February 2025 to February 26, 2026. [43:50] That's more than 88,000 jobs in total. [43:55] It's not a trade policy that delivers for working people. [44:00] Do we not calculate the number of jobs lost? [44:08] And what do we think about that? [44:11] You know, this is really pretty extraordinary when we were supposed to, you know, be producing all of these manufacturing jobs. [44:21] I would just say that the other thing was the Bureau of Labor Statistics. [44:29] According to them, on net there was an increase of over 500,000 manufacturing jobs under the Biden administration. [44:38] And I really don't want to have to talk about the Biden administration. [44:43] But you all have been here for well over a year. [44:46] And we now need to measure your performance against standards that you set. [44:51] There was a decline in manufacturing jobs that we've seen in the first year. [44:55] So let me ask you what your response to that is in the decline of manufacturing jobs. [45:00] The tariff and trade policy of President Trump in this administration is to bring manufacturing back to America. [45:10] But as Representative Ming points out, when we were up in Micron, we broke ground on $100 billion plant. [45:23] That's going to have 40,000 construction jobs. [45:26] TSMC in Arizona, again, 40,000 construction jobs. [45:31] I broke ground in Ohio, 25,000 construction jobs. [45:36] So the manufacturing is going to start in two or three years when these factories come online. [45:42] But construction, bringing this back, $400 billion in pharmaceuticals, $200 billion in autos. [45:49] These are huge historic numbers. [45:50] Well, let me reclaim my time for a moment, Mr. Secretary, because I know. [45:53] But you can't even tell us how many jobs we've lost. [45:56] So I don't know about what we're seeing in the future. [45:59] But this is a good segue for me, what you're doing. [46:05] Your budget suggests that this committee, and in your budget request, you abandon the programs [46:13] due to the work of trying to promote American manufacturing. [46:18] Just, you know, look at the, you zero out the Manufacturing Extension Partnership, [46:24] which provides small businesses with tools, training, resources to grow, innovate, remain competitive. [46:30] You also, you eliminate the Economic Development Administration grants, supporting workforce development, innovation, entrepreneurship. [46:40] And let me also say, it's worth noting that in your confirmation hearing, you opposed cuts to EDA. [46:47] And it's now going to be eliminated. [46:49] You've got the International Trade Administration, the Global Markets Program. [46:54] How do you propose that small businesses to survive and thrive if you're not going to give them the tools that they need to be able to perform, to support development, to support workforce development? [47:07] It's just incomprehensible. [47:11] You've mentioned these very large projects that you're doing. [47:14] But you're cutting all of these efforts off to deal with small businesses and their ability to be able to succeed and to grow manufacturing. [47:23] Comment? [47:25] What's the matter? [47:28] Mr. Laro, thank you. [47:30] The time, I just wanted to ask the, whether you wanted me to respond or respond, it's up to you. [47:34] Why don't you just try to answer it? [47:35] The chairman will, why don't you try to answer the question, Mr. Secretary? [47:39] Time of the gentlelady has expired. [47:41] Mr. Clyde? [47:42] No answers to the questions. [47:44] Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. [47:46] Secretary Lutnick, thank you for appearing before our committee today. [47:53] I want to thank you for the Bureau of Industry and Security's decision to rescind the Biden-era interim final rule on firearm export controls. [48:01] That rule placed an undue burden on American firearm manufacturers and shut them out of overseas markets. [48:08] Rescinding it was the right call. [48:10] And so I appreciate the administration's action on this and want to say thank you. [48:14] And also, the example that you gave of the BEAD, the Broadband Equity Access and Deployment Program savings of $21 billion. [48:27] Did I get that right? [48:28] $21 billion? [48:29] Okay. [48:30] $21 billion. [48:31] $21 billion. [48:32] That is incredible. [48:33] And that is a great testament to someone who comes in and says, you know, I think we need some competition in this. [48:41] And we need to be able to look at it and say one size doesn't fit all. [48:44] All right. [48:45] And so I think this highlights the president's constitutional authority of impoundment. [48:51] Here you have done something with 50% of the money. [48:54] And you've got 50% of the money saved. [48:57] And therefore, I think that should be able to either go back to the Treasury or simply be unspent. [49:03] Because in the end, it ends up being borrowed money. [49:07] So with that, I thank you. [49:08] Now, I want to talk a little bit about the BEAD program. [49:12] Blue Ridge Mountain EMC in my district is a member-owned cooperative or electric cooperative, [49:18] was excited to receive $3.8 million BEAD award toward their $13.1 million project to connect 3,700 hard-to-reach households [49:29] in Northeast Georgia with broadband. [49:31] But on January 12th of this year, the National Telecom and Information Administration quietly added new language [49:39] to the BEAD general terms and conditions requiring cooperatives to comply with FCC poll attachment rules [49:45] across their entire service footprint. [49:47] Not just the BEAD-funded areas, but for the entire service footprint. [49:51] And this is a serious problem for a few reasons. [49:53] And I'll go through that. [49:55] First, Congress explicitly exempted electric cooperatives from FCC poll attachment rules under Section 224 of the Communications Act. [50:03] And as I understand it, the NTIA has no mandate to undo that exemption. [50:09] Second and most critically, Blue Ridge Mountain EMC is regulated by the Tennessee Valley Authority, [50:15] which governs poll attachment rates for all 153 TVA served utilities using a standardized valley-wide methodology. [50:23] And so as I see it, NTIA is demanding that this cooperative violate its obligations [50:29] to its own congressionally authorized federal regulator in order to accept a federal grant from a different agency. [50:35] Blue Ridge Mountain EMC has concluded that the compliance burden may already outweigh the benefit [50:41] and may be forced to walk away from the grant entirely. [50:44] And I don't want to see that happen at all. [50:46] All right. [50:47] So are you familiar with this kind of issue, with this issue? [50:50] That's the benefit of this job. [50:51] I'm familiar with all of these issues. [50:53] Okay, great. [50:54] Fantastic. [50:55] I just want to let you know, so I looked into this. [50:57] Yes. [50:58] The TVA is exempt from these rules. [51:02] Okay. [51:03] And Blue Ridge Mountain EMC is exempt. [51:07] And they can stick to the policy and the process that you and I would agree is the best for your area. [51:13] Okay. [51:14] So thank you for that commitment. [51:15] I was going to ask you for that, and you beat me to the punch. [51:18] So thank you very much. [51:21] We'll take that as gospel. [51:24] So thank you, sir. [51:25] I was encouraged to see your budget request reduces the Department of Commerce's footprint by 1.8 billion, [51:31] a 16.5 decrease from the FY26 enacted level. [51:35] And your proposal rightly eliminates duplicative programs within the Economic Development Administration [51:41] and the Minority Business Development Agency and curtails billions in federal funding dollars [51:46] that the Biden-Harris Administration funneled, excuse me, into radical climate initiatives, research, and grant programs. [51:54] So, Mr. Secretary, you propose eliminating the Economic Development Administration and the Minority Business Development Agency. [52:01] Can you describe how both of these agencies, the EDA and the MBDA, were wasting taxpayer dollars on earmarks for political pet projects [52:10] and subsidies for leftist ideologies and the reasoning then behind that savings? [52:17] So, for example, the MBDA had a very, very rough IG report. [52:26] And I have that audit here. [52:29] And it is brutal. [52:30] It actually literally says that over 92% of the awards should never have been made, [52:36] that the economic analysis was wrong and flawed. [52:40] And so, it was a mess. [52:43] So, we sought to make it zero because it was a mess. [52:48] If it was effective, great. [52:50] But if, you know, and these other programs, the problem like the MEP, right? [52:56] The idea is a good idea. [53:00] But you should read the Inspector General's report. [53:03] It'll make you sick to your stomach. [53:05] They overpay the people. [53:07] This was a set up in 1988 to do advanced manufacturing. [53:13] And what happened is it just crept and crept and crept to where the money was just not being used effectively. [53:21] So, whatever appropriations you give to me, what I will promise you is I will do our darndest to use it incredibly effectively [53:32] for the benefit of the bargain of the American people. [53:35] But if the current program is broken, like MBDA, right, I'm obviously going to suggest to you to zero it out. [53:42] Sure. [53:43] Right? Because it's broken. [53:44] I'm not saying the ideas are wrong. [53:47] I'm saying if the execution is wrong, I've got to come here and tell you it's broken and you can feel good to zero it out. [53:55] If you want to come up with a new program and talk about it, let's do that together. [53:59] But let's not do it wrong. [54:00] Well, thank you. [54:01] I think that's a wise counsel. [54:03] And I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman. [54:05] With that, I yield back. [54:06] Gentleman yields. [54:08] Mr. Morale. [54:09] Thank you. [54:12] I would note, Mr. Chair, that gave Mr. Clyde a minute and a half additional time and the ranking member was cut off and wouldn't answer, [54:21] wouldn't listen to the answer by the Secretary. [54:24] But anyway, Mr. Secretary, thank you for being here. [54:26] I often quote, as my friend reminds me, Mark Twain, but I'll quote you. [54:32] You said the U.S. economy is the strongest and most resilient in the world. [54:35] I think if Mr. Twain were here, he would say, given this administration, it needs to be. [54:41] Last year, you testified before this subcommittee when I shared my concerns about I have business leaders in Rochester, New York, because, you know, Republicans aren't the only people to talk to business leaders and people making investments about tariff policies that have thrown them into a constant state of uncertainty. [54:59] And the chaos remains the only predictable thing in this administration. [55:03] The past year, there have been dozens of changes to tariff rates, target countries, products covered, specific exemptions and a complete overhaul of the tariff authorities being used. [55:14] When businesses don't have predictability, I learned a long time ago when I'd meet with business leaders, they'd say predictability is the most important thing. [55:22] You know, almost anything you want. [55:23] I mean, they wouldn't like it, but at least if it's predictable, there is no predictability. [55:28] And the market conditions are changing literally week to week. [55:33] The ranking member mentioned $34 billion drop in factory construction investments in the last year, 89,000 manufacturing jobs lost. [55:46] And I appreciate the continuity between the Biden and Trump administrations from Micron, which is up in my region and others. [55:55] I'm proud of that as Americans, we should be. [55:59] But it's hard to argue when 30% of Americans approve of the administration's handling of the economy, 89,000 manufacturing jobs lost and chaos. [56:10] I don't know what to tell business leaders. [56:12] So if you don't mind just answering that question, because I think this uncertainty is, and look, this is important. [56:18] These are people's lives, families lives. [56:21] And from day to day, I hear from leaders say, I don't know what to do. [56:28] You would tell business leaders to build in America, build in America. [56:33] We have advanced manufacturers, build in America. [56:36] $400 billion of pharmaceuticals coming in because of our tariff policy. [56:41] Semiconductors, we will have a trillion dollars of semiconductor announced investments during President Trump's administration. [56:50] A trillion dollars of semiconductor manufacturing, one again and again. [56:55] Let me just, for a moment, let's just hone in on that. [56:59] So I represent Rochester, New York. [57:01] Dozens of small and medium-sized optics manufacturers, one of the great optics manufacturing and research centers in the United States. [57:09] These companies create everything from eyeglasses to metrology machines. [57:15] They have lenses and hypersonic missiles. [57:17] Almost everything that has a micro-electronic chip has a lens. [57:20] One I talked to just a few weeks ago. [57:23] They're trying to onshore more of their production. [57:27] To do that, they have to buy a multi-million dollar machine because it's not made in the United States. [57:33] They have to buy it from allies. [57:35] It's a $10 million purchase. [57:38] The tariff alone from the country that they're bringing it in from, under a Section 232 tariff, is 10%, adds a million dollars to the upfront cost. [57:47] They're thinking about not doing it. [57:49] Because it's reclaiming a million dollars on these. [57:52] So, respectfully, building in the United States is great. [57:55] I talked to a company that has manufacturing in Rochester and manufacturing in Berlin. [58:00] Because of Canadian imports that are going to get taxed, they said to me, it is less expensive for us, more profitable for us to extend that manufacturing line in Berlin than it is in the United States. [58:12] So, look, I'd love to tell people to build it. [58:15] We all want, all of us, Democrats, Republicans, I don't care who you are, build more manufacturing jobs in the United States. [58:20] But you're losing them. [58:21] And, yes, you can cite an investment here or there, but the problem is the playing field is uneven. [58:27] It's chaotic. [58:29] Respectfully, it's reckless. [58:30] And, look, I appreciate you. [58:32] You have to be the cheerleader for it. [58:33] And not just you. [58:34] Every commerce secretary is a cheerleader for every president. [58:37] I get that. [58:38] But at some point, you've got to advise the president, this is reckless. [58:42] It's hurting Americans. [58:43] Even the notion, you're talking about auto manufacturers. [58:45] The president's talking about Chinese auto manufacturers coming to the United States. [58:49] They're going to compete with American auto manufacturers? [58:52] But that's what we're talking about. [58:54] No, we're not. [58:55] And you're talking about China. [58:56] And, by the way, they're electric vehicles. [58:57] No, no. [58:58] They're not allowed to bring Chinese cars here. [58:59] Absolutely not. [59:00] Well, the president's talking about allowing Chinese manufacturers to build and sell into American markets. [59:05] It was announced last week. [59:06] He's talking about it. [59:07] No. [59:09] Okay. [59:10] Well, you should talk to him about what he says then. [59:12] I'll yield back, Mr. Chair. [59:13] The gentleman yields back. [59:15] Perfect. [59:17] Now, in his debut in the new Congress, the gentleman is recognized, Mr. Shreve. [59:24] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [59:26] And thank you to our witness, Mr. Secretary. [59:31] Happy to be here. [59:32] Yes, this is my first day at subcommittee. [59:35] This was my first week at committee. [59:38] Thank you. [59:39] Thank you. [59:41] Thank you. [59:42] Thank you. [59:43] I'm also a fairly new representative. [59:46] I'm in my first term. [59:47] And I come from the middle of Indiana. [59:50] I represent central Indiana, eastern Indiana. [59:53] And as a consequence and part of that, as I came into service, came to realize how victimized so many of my constituents, sort of trusting Hoosiers from the heartland, had been victimized by scams. [1:00:08] Many of which emanate from foreign scam centers. [1:00:12] This is not a mission that I had coming into service, but one which I came to realize how much and to what degree so many of my colleagues up here represent constituents who are being bilked out of billions of dollars in scams. [1:00:29] And I think particularly so with some of our older constituents, those from maybe more by default trusting parts of the country like mine and our chairman, maybe perhaps in your neck of the woods, where people may be less likely to answer an unknown call. [1:00:46] But in the vein of the all too common text and email scams, phishing scams that are collectively stealing from our citizens, I wanted to ask you what our Department of Commerce is doing to push stronger authentication standards for foreign digital traffic before those calls and texts reach our citizens. [1:01:13] I think that's a really interesting point to try to have the origin of the call be made clear to the recipient. [1:01:30] So because especially what's coming with AI where they someone could, you know, have my voice, right, and use my voice to call my family would be nice to know that it's from some crazy location in in, you know, foreign in Asia. [1:01:46] So I think this is excellent. And if you'd like to work together with my team, I think let's go explore how to change that. I mean, that's really extraordinary idea and very valuable to America. [1:01:58] All right. Well, I would look indeed like to play that forward. And it relates in part to the conversation on export controls of these high end ships as the chairman noted, your budget requests a historic increase at $215 million, the addition of enforcement agents and AI is at the root of some of these challenges. [1:02:28] Certainly the, the, the, the, the, the, the fairly small scams, the text message scam, speed camera scams, uh, toll road scams, but the real sophisticated ones, some of which in, in, in my own district, uh, built a constituent out of $600,000 in, in, in, in property. [1:02:46] The pig butchering scams are enabled by the AI technology, these high end ships that can over time and increasingly dupe our citizens. [1:03:00] Um, can you just add a little color to how you aim to use the additional funding in this budget increase, uh, on the enforcement for BIS enforcement of those high end ships that are making their way all too often, uh, to South Central Asia? [1:03:18] South Central Asia. I serve on, well, have served up to this point on foreign affairs and the South Central Asia subcommittee. And that's how I really came to realize how focused these foreign scam centers were on that part of the world. [1:03:30] We need law enforcement agents, right? The, the budget increases for law enforcement agents and the economics of those law enforcement agents. While we are here talking about the budget expense, the revenues that these agents call in by finding, uh, these companies, um, far, far exceeds the cost. So if this was a business conversation, it would be a slam dunk if there ever was one, right? [1:04:00] Because I think these increases will go between five and 10 times the money of each agent we add. But because this is government where we have expense in one conversation and revenues a whole nother thing. [1:04:13] You know, a commerce secretary. I really want those agents. They will protect us. They will protect Americans and they will pay for themselves multiple, multiple times. [1:04:23] Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I timely yield back. Congratulations to the gentleman. Um, Mrs. Dean. [1:04:38] Thank you, Chairman Rogers, Ranking Member Meng, Ranking Member Delauro. Good afternoon, Secretary Lutnik. Last Tuesday, I had the chance to attend a breakfast for RAINN. [1:04:51] The Rape, Abuse, Incest National Network. It was their congressional day of action. Survivors came to me, told me their horrific stories. [1:05:01] And the survivors I spoke with had one message. They're seeking accountability and justice. [1:05:07] After speaking with the survivors, I again went to the Department of Justice to review the unredacted Epstein files to seek accountability and justice for the victims. [1:05:20] The more than 1,000 victims and survivors. And today, Secretary Lutnik, I have some questions for you about what I saw. [1:05:27] Let's start with your relationship with sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. On October, in October, you told the New York Post with colorful narration that the last time you saw Jeffrey Epstein was in 2005, when you took a tour of his house, which happened to be right next door to yours. [1:05:44] You claim you and your wife were so grossed out by this disgusting person, you swore you would never go back. But when the Epstein files came out, it turned out that was a lie. [1:05:55] You were forced to admit that you had visited Epstein's private island in 2012, four years after Epstein pled guilty soliciting a minor for prostitution and was labeled a sex offender. [1:06:08] You brought along your wife, your kids, your nannies to the predator's island. Incredibly poor judgment. [1:06:14] But that even wasn't the whole truth. It turns out that five days after visiting his island, you and Epstein signed a business deal together. [1:06:23] As co-investors in a digital advertising company, Adfin, an email showed you stayed in touch with Epstein about this deal as late as 2018. [1:06:34] Secretary Lutnik, why did you lie to the New York Post about your relationship with Jeffrey Epstein? [1:06:41] Oh, I did hear that. Please don't repeat your gracious offer to speak behind closed doors, not under oath, without the ability of this committee to question you. [1:06:55] The American people wants to know, why did you lie about your relationship with Epstein? [1:07:01] The House Oversight Committee and I have agreed that we will spend the time together. [1:07:08] Reclaiming my time, I do not accept that answer. We've heard that one. We are our own committee. We have our own reason to test your credibility and veracity. [1:07:18] Please answer the question. Why did you lie to the Post? [1:07:21] I have voluntarily agreed to spend the time and talk about it. [1:07:28] I reclaim the time. Let the record reflect. You're dodging the question. The cover-up continues. [1:07:34] You know what? In your conversations with the president, is the president concerned about your continued relationship that you had with Mr. Epstein as recently as 2018? [1:07:45] I am not going to discuss conversations I have with the president. That is not something I'm going to do. [1:07:53] If you remember in that interview, you said you would never be in the room with him socially, for business or even philanthropy. [1:08:02] President Trump has just fired three cabinet secretaries, three women, Kristi Noem, Pam Bondi, Lori Chavez de Reamer. [1:08:09] If President Trump has even a shred of concern about accountability for Jeffrey Epstein's enablers, he would fire you too. [1:08:19] Beyond ADFIN, what other financial ties do you have to Jeffrey Epstein? [1:08:22] As I said, I'm going to answer all these questions. [1:08:29] Beyond ADFIN, what other financial ties? You're the Commerce Secretary. We have a right to ask this question and get it answered. [1:08:37] Again, I'm not going to spend the budget day discussing something I've set aside time to spend on this topic with your House colleagues. [1:08:45] I'm going to switch topics. Let me switch topics. [1:08:48] A different and equally disturbing issue, how your family is profiting from your work as Commerce Secretary. [1:08:56] Let's start with tariffs. You and the president illegally imposed the highest tariffs on the American people since the Great Depression. [1:09:02] And your sons figured out how to profit from the high tariffs by buying up refund rights, pennies on the dollar, just as you are out there cheerleading the tariffs. [1:09:15] As a result, federal taxpayers like my constituents may now owe your family tens of or hundreds of millions of dollars. [1:09:24] I wonder if President Trump is concerned about you and your family profiteering off the illegal tariffs. [1:09:32] You know that that is false. Here's reporting. I'd like to put it in the record. [1:09:38] Howard Lutnick's old firm did not, in fact, profit from Supreme Court tariff ruling. [1:09:44] It is just not true. It's your son's. It's your son's. The recording is- [1:09:47] No, no. His old firm and my son's. It is not true. [1:09:50] Mr. Chairman, reclaiming my time. And you know it's not true. It's not true. [1:09:53] Many- Mr. Chairman, reclaiming about 20 seconds. I hope you recognize how fundamentally wrong and corrupt this is. I hope you take accountability and have the decency to resign before you are fired. [1:10:09] It's not true. [1:10:10] I yield. [1:10:12] The time of the gentlelady has expired. Mr. Mervan? [1:10:17] Yes, Secretary Lutnick. Last week at Samford World Economic Summit, you were quoted, which I want to thank you. It was a pro-union quote. [1:10:32] It said, the concept of taking an auto plant out of Ohio in Michigan and putting it in Mexico to break the union's back is nuts. And to break people is nuts. Is that something that you said? [1:10:48] I don't know if I said exactly that way, but the concept sounds right. [1:10:53] The concept? Okay. And so you agreed that you want to protect American jobs and union jobs in that quote? [1:11:01] Yes, I think automotive union jobs are excellent jobs for Americans. [1:11:06] On Labor Day, on Labor Day, the President of the United States, on Labor Day, put out an executive order, which was the greatest collective bargaining and union-breaking executive order in the history of America that took away bargaining rights, collective bargaining rights, [1:11:21] from everyone in the Department of Commerce. Why the two mixed messages? Why take collective bargaining away from union members who work under you? And why now are you saying you're fighting for union jobs? [1:11:40] Well, union jobs in the commercial side of the United States of America are fundamental. Taxpayer jobs. Taxpayer jobs in Article II in the United States of America. [1:11:56] Article II meaning national security? [1:11:59] The executive branch should be run by the President of the United States, elected by the people. [1:12:04] Okay. So you stand for union jobs because I need your help on this. [1:12:10] British Petroleum, British Petroleum in my district, which is an energy producer, the third largest oil refinery, has locked out the United Steelworkers' [1:12:20] government, approximately 1,000 families, men and women, because of contract negotiations. [1:12:25] My Republican governor came to the picket line, Governor Braun. [1:12:30] I agree with him in a bipartisan way that British Petroleum is putting our community at risk by having replacement workers who are non-trained, [1:12:40] so environmental risks and also safety risks for Hammond, the Chicago Whiting, my community is a threat. [1:12:51] Will you join me and ask the President of the United States to tell British Petroleum, a foreign company energy producer, [1:12:59] to go back to the bargaining table so that those very valuable union jobs you were just theatrical about will be saved [1:13:07] and families in my community will go back to work? [1:13:09] I didn't mean to be theatrical. [1:13:12] Don't laugh. [1:13:13] There's nothing funny about it. [1:13:14] No, no, no. [1:13:15] Don't laugh at my situation about a thousand families out of work. [1:13:18] No, no, no. [1:13:19] That's not right. [1:13:20] And that's not fair. [1:13:21] Okay. [1:13:22] I'm just putting things in perspective. [1:13:23] I said your comment of theatrical. [1:13:24] I had not intended. [1:13:25] But when we're talking about union jobs, I have been very clear. [1:13:28] I am very supportive of great union jobs in America. [1:13:31] I think they are excellent jobs for America. [1:13:33] So will you make the commitment? [1:13:34] I am a fan of the Steelworkers. [1:13:35] I'm a fan of the Teamsters. [1:13:37] Right. [1:13:38] Everybody knows it. [1:13:39] Will you make the commitment? [1:13:40] Let's sit together. [1:13:41] Let's go through it together. [1:13:42] Okay. [1:13:43] And let's come up with the right move to get this company to treat our union workers fairly. [1:13:49] I am on side with that. [1:13:51] Let's work together to do it. [1:13:52] So the Secretary of Commerce, as your role, you will sit down with me to make sure British Petroleum goes back to the negotiation table so my family's Steelworkers go back to work. [1:14:03] Seems like a fair request to me. [1:14:05] That's yes. [1:14:06] Okay. [1:14:07] So thank you for that. [1:14:09] That's progress. [1:14:10] And I'm going to hold you to that as I expect you to hold me accountable to things. [1:14:15] Secondly, you had talked about Secretary Wright and yourself celebrating gas powered investments for natural gas powered facilities in Southern Pennsylvania and Ohio. [1:14:29] In Northwest Indiana, a week ago, on March 26, Secretary Wright made an emergency order saying that our utility, NIPSCO, needed to, because of national securities, reopen a coal fire plant. [1:14:44] I have the highest rates for electricity and energy in the country. [1:14:49] My rate payers in Northwest Indiana are getting crushed by those rates. [1:14:53] It's $100 million to reopen up a coal plant that NIPSCO privately, privately chose to close in 2019. [1:15:04] Explain to me why the mixed messages. [1:15:06] Why is natural gas good for Ohio and Southern Pennsylvania? [1:15:11] But why is Secretary Wright celebrating with you the increase in jobs? [1:15:16] But in my district, there's going to be $100 million because you're forcing, the administration is forcing the power plant to keep open or to reestablish that plant, a coal powered plant. [1:15:29] Just help me understand the differences. [1:15:31] Reopening a coal fired plant will employ lots of coal miners, which we just discussed. [1:15:38] But why is, right, why is natural gas good for Ohio and Southern Pennsylvania, but why do my rate payers, because of an executive order, have to pay $100 million? [1:15:51] There's a tariff placed through MISO that has, the rate payers have to pay that. [1:15:56] Tell me why are my rate payers, who have NIPSCO, the highest energy bills in the country, why are they paying for that? [1:16:03] But Pennsylvania and Ohio, you're celebrating natural gas power plants. [1:16:11] Opening a coal plant will lower the cost of energy in your district. [1:16:15] I'm happy to sit down with you and go through with you. [1:16:17] I'm happy to do that. [1:16:18] I love math. [1:16:19] I love math. [1:16:20] It's going to lower the cost. [1:16:22] The math is it's $100 million to the rate payers because they have to reopen something while you're celebrating cutting ribbons for the same things in other parts of the country. [1:16:31] I don't understand it. [1:16:32] The time of the gentleman has expired. [1:16:34] With that, I yield back. [1:16:37] I thank you for working with me on the British Petroleum issue. [1:16:40] Mr. Ivey. [1:16:43] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [1:16:44] Mr. Secretary, I've got some questions for you about the illegal tariffs refund that the administration's, I guess, starting in the process to make. [1:16:55] So the Trump administration collected about $166 billion or so in these illegal tariffs and they were declared illegal by the Supreme Court. [1:17:03] And I think on Monday, CBP opened up a portal that would allow the importers of record and licensed customs brokers to file for refunds. [1:17:19] And I know there were some problems with how it got going forward and the like, but the biggest question I had was it looks like only the first tier of entities that were interacting on the trade front are going to be eligible to get a refund. [1:17:34] And I asked the USTR head about this the other week. [1:17:39] I'm trying to figure out if the Trump administration is going to do anything to help small businesses in the next tiers down who also ended up having to pay some of these tariffs as they were passed along. [1:17:52] And especially everyday consumers, individuals, customers who just, you bought something at the store, it costs more because the tariffs raised the price of it. [1:18:01] Now it's, there's going to be a refund that's provided, but only to the frontline people who also benefited from charging the higher prices down the road. [1:18:11] So from one perspective, those corporations are going to get a windfall profit, but there doesn't seem to be anything in place to pass along a refund to the smaller businesses or the individual customers. [1:18:24] Are you aware of anything that the Trump administration is doing to help those funds go back to the small businesses and the individual customers? [1:18:33] So I am the Secretary of Commerce and Customs and Border Patrol is under DHS and Secretary Mullins. [1:18:44] So that's just unfortunately not that which I'm involved in. [1:18:50] Well, but I'm not, I'm not involved in it. [1:18:52] And I haven't participated in those discussions. [1:18:54] Well, but hold up a second. [1:18:55] I mean, you're, I just saw the 60 Minutes interview or I'm sorry, Face the Nation interviewer. [1:19:00] You were talking about tariffs and you were praising the president's tariffs, the same tariffs that were declared illegal by the Supreme Court. [1:19:06] In fact, you said that these tariffs are going to make it, they're going to be so beneficial to the American people that there'd be a point where they wouldn't even have to pay individual income taxes anymore. [1:19:15] Obviously, that's not going to be the case now. [1:19:18] And by the way, at the time that the president learned of the Supreme Court's ruling, you were standing there in the Oval Office with him as he criticized the Supreme Court for the ruling. [1:19:29] So it's clear that it's in your, it's in your bandwidth as Secretary of Commerce, and it's clear that the tariffs are highly relevant to your role as Secretary. [1:19:39] So is there anything, and if there's something the Trump administration was doing about refunding this, I'm sure you would know about it. [1:19:46] So is there anything that you're aware of that the Trump administration is doing to help the refunds go back to smaller businesses and individual customers? [1:19:55] Again, the process of setting tariffs I participate in, but customs collects them, and customs is responsible for the portal and all these things. [1:20:09] I'm just not involved in that process. [1:20:12] To the best of your knowledge, there is not. [1:20:14] I wouldn't know one way or the other as the right way to answer it. [1:20:18] Oh, come on, Mr. Secretary. [1:20:19] You have no idea whether the $166 billion, and that's without interest. [1:20:25] You don't know, you don't know if there's a process in place to collect that money. [1:20:29] And by the way, once the Supreme Court declared him illegal, the President immediately said he's going to roll out a new set of tariffs, [1:20:35] which you were also connected with, that took, that replaced those funds. [1:20:40] You have no idea if the administration is doing anything with respect to the refunds. [1:20:45] You really don't. [1:20:46] No, no, as I said, there's a portal that has been put out, but it's by customs and border patrol. [1:20:53] And I'm not participating in that portal. [1:20:55] Let's do it this way. [1:20:56] Let's do it this way. [1:20:57] Would you commit today to participate in setting up something with the administration, through the administration, [1:21:04] to help make sure that small businesses who were not the front line with respect to the payment of the brokers, [1:21:10] and especially individual consumers, get a chance to get a refund? [1:21:16] Well, that makes perfect sense. [1:21:17] You're committing to do that? [1:21:19] That makes perfect sense to me. [1:21:20] All right. [1:21:21] Well, we will definitely follow up with that. [1:21:22] I appreciate your commitment on that front. [1:21:24] And with that, I yield back. [1:21:25] The gentleman yields back. [1:21:30] That concludes today's hearing. [1:21:33] I'd like to thank our witness, Secretary Lutnick, for his testimony and his presence with the committee. [1:21:44] Without objection, members may have seven days to submit additional questions for the record. [1:21:51] Thank you, Mr. Secretary, for being here today and answering questions. [1:21:54] Subcommittee stands adjourned. [1:21:57] At the end. [1:21:58] That is all.