Nottingham attacks families hold press conference after inquiry concludes

[0:00] The secret schedule. The HMCPSI failed to inform us of this hidden file. The CPS and the HMCPSI [0:12] both accepted a flawed psychiatric report that did not cover the basics. It didn't cover collateral [0:24] history, was not contemporaneous and delayed by five months, where state of mind on the day of [0:32] the attacks could not be assessed, apart from within a crystal ball, what I now call crystal [0:39] ball psychiatry. The psychiatrist's report had the audacity to have the legal outcome of [0:49] our case in the psychiatrist's own handmade notes. The Nottinghamshire Police, the emergency [1:00] response that they held was woeful. They mishandled their investigation to a degree that's alarming. [1:06] They were led poorly and they had poor professional standards. Positions of power don't come without [1:17] responsibility that one can devoid. The Royal College of Psychiatrists cannot muzzle voices [1:26] that have pointed out epidemiological correlations of race and mental illness. The Royal College [1:34] of Psychiatrists must get its house in order. The Regional Mental Health Directorate of the [1:41] Midlands has to answer why they failed to monitor and escalate obvious problems in the Midlands. [1:48] Months before the attacks, there had been homicides and high alerts. They were ignored. We have [1:56] yet to hear from the National Mental Health Directorate and the Mental Health Director of the time. [2:01] The Nottingham and Nottinghamshire Integrated Care Board failed to commission and monitor a safe [2:08] service. The ICB has many questions to answer. The senior leadership at Nottingham Health Trust [2:16] failed in all ways possible. From not formulating risk assessments, not following their own protocols [2:26] on discharge, not making notes at multidisciplinary meetings, not following the fundamentals of good [2:34] medical practice. The Department of Health must gather harm data accurately. The National Confidential [2:44] Inquiry must be extended to not only homicide cases, but to serious harm caused by mentally ill patients. [2:51] This data is grossly lacking and grossly underestimated. In my view, the new Mental Health Act of 2025 does not [3:04] mitigate enough for risk. Those considering the Mental Health Act of 2025 were blasé as to the benefit of [3:13] community treatment orders and only really included them because of our case. I leave it to Your Honour [3:20] Deborah Taylor for assessment and advice of the Mental Health Act to the Government. There is vindication today [3:30] for pointing out the staggering failures that led to the avoidable Nottinghamshire attacks. This must never be allowed [3:40] to happen again. Thank you. [3:43] Emma Webber, Alison McKenzie, ITV News Central. You mentioned the people you now want to go to and make claims. [4:05] Can you underline what you want to achieve from that and who you are going to? [4:09] Yeah, are you talking about the Government? [4:11] Yeah, basically it is most of the Cabinet because most of the departments of those that I mentioned have senior [4:20] individuals that have failed, none of which have been held to account at all. And so we have to go. And, Alison, [4:26] whilst you are here, thank you for helping us secure our statutory public inquiry. It was good that you ambushed the [4:34] Prime Minister at the time when he was up in Nottingham. And it is because of the noise that we have made that I believe that we are here. [4:42] If not, we would be another tragedy. We would be another dusty report on shelves that is just missed out of hand. [4:51] And so I think whilst we have to wait for the Chair to make her findings, the inquiry is part of this. It is not all of it. [5:00] There must be immediate action against some of those senior people that Sanjoy particularly has alluded to. [5:08] As we are here now, nearly three years on, nobody at any senior level in any of those agencies has been held to account. [5:16] There has been an awful lot of early retirements. There has actually been sideways moves. [5:22] And we have sat and heard how Hospital Trust should have the absolute responsibility for the delivery of services. [5:33] So, why are we not seeing heads roll with non-executive chairs, with the executive staff, all of which are on huge money? [5:43] If you want to earn the big money, then you have to be big enough and good enough at your job. [5:47] If you can't do it, then you have to go. [5:53] Martin Dawgley, GB News. [5:55] First of all, just like to say something I've said to you before. [5:57] As somebody who was born in Nottingham, I'm ashamed of what happened to you guys. [6:00] I sincerely am, and you're amazing people. [6:03] On to my question. [6:04] First of all, do you think that the fact, do you believe that the entire system folded and protected itself to keep Calicane away from murder trial? [6:12] Because if it had gone to murder, he'd have been exposed, and so would the people who made these mistakes. [6:16] They'd have had to get evidence, and the entire thing would have imploded. [6:19] And secondly, if I may, to the Calicane family themselves, do you think they were reliable witnesses? [6:25] And by the way, where was the father? [6:29] Sanjoy? [6:32] I'll take the difficult ones, Martin. [6:35] I think, Martin, you've put your finger on something. [6:40] I think some of the evidence, you know, in terms of self-harm brought up. [6:49] But I've examined all of them once, or self-harm mentioned medical reports. [6:59] So I let the chair of the inquiry decide whether what she heard was the truth, and the whole truth, [7:10] and whether there were people who were conspicuous about their absence at the inquiry. [7:16] But that is very much, I think, for one of their real tailors. [7:24] Yeah, I'm going to chip in there, because the father should have given oral evidence. [7:29] He didn't. [7:30] He was given special measures not to. [7:33] Sorry, Neil, but it is to us, as parents, to not hear from somebody who's the parent of the individual that murdered my son, [7:46] who had direct calls from him the night before it happened, who was present when he arrived at their house a couple of times, [7:57] driving from Nottingham in a clearly unwell state. [8:00] And with mental health in his family as well, I believe that there are questions. [8:07] It's not to vilify, it's actually just to seek the truth. [8:13] So for me, that will always be a gap, whether it's ever addressed or not, I don't know. [8:20] But I'm prepared to say that, because we did try really hard to ask for evidence from everyone we felt we really should be hearing from. [8:28] And on your first point, Martin, yeah, 100%, I think we've all seen now what's been unearthed in this inquiry has proven that there was cover-ups from the minute he was, [8:47] the police got hold of him, up to our court dates and the hearings with the CPS. [8:52] I think all of us families were played like a fiddle. [8:56] Yeah, I mean, we're still looking for answers to why exactly. [9:04] But it does feel very much so that things were covered up, it worked out in his favour. [9:11] And, you know, it's a slot that have to pick up the pieces, which is not just this in any way, shape or form. [9:20] Hi, Amelia Harper, Sky News. [9:33] I just wanted to ask, do you feel that you have the opportunity to say everything that you've wanted to say, all of you, during the inquiry? [9:43] Do you feel that you've been given the time and the space to do so? [9:46] And also, you're referencing wanting government members to do more. [9:51] What would your message today, now that we've had the conclusion on Friday of the evidence and inquiry, [9:57] what would your message to Sir Keir Starmer be now? [10:01] Can I start? [10:04] There have been certain things in the inquiry that I would have liked to have unpicked more. [10:09] I'm into detail. The inquiry wasn't an adversarial process. [10:15] It was there to open up the facts and the failures. [10:18] I would have liked an adversarial. I think that was robbed from us because we didn't get a trial. [10:23] I wanted an adversarial process. As has been brought up, there were episodes when Valdo Calicane drove to his family home, [10:31] sat outside in the car, overnight, on two occasions. [10:35] A mother who's a nurse who didn't call 999, who says that she didn't know. [10:42] I mean, I think you're all family people here. If someone was sitting outside your house in a psychotic state, [10:47] for you not to call the emergency services, it's quite alarming. [10:51] I wanted to know some of the detail to some of the questions that I had posed. [10:55] And at every juncture and every report that we got from every authority, I sent a lengthy email back full of questions. [11:02] I do feel that my questions haven't been answered because we weren't allowed to trial. [11:06] If we were, then everything would have been answered for me. [11:10] But the inquiry wasn't that forum. The inquiry there was to uncover all of the failures. [11:15] So to answer your question directly, what I would say to the politicians, [11:19] if we ever, possibly by any chance, have a trial. [11:22] I would like the answer of all of my questions possible. [11:26] Because there are outstanding matters that have not been answered directly [11:30] because it was an adversarial process and I couldn't get the answer to all of my questions. [11:36] Can I add one more thing there when you said what we would like the government to do? [11:40] I'd like to remind everybody that 30 years ago there was an inquiry called the Christopher Clunas Inquiry [11:46] where a mentally ill gentleman killed another innocent man that he did not know. [11:51] The Ritchie Report was produced. It discussed risk assessments. It discussed assertive outreach. [11:58] It had made a whole load of recommendations that made complete sense. [12:01] There were complete parallels with two public inquiries having 30 years apart. [12:05] The recommendations of the Ritchie Report were put in place. They were short-lived and they fell away. [12:10] When Deborah Taylor makes her recommendations, which I'm sure will be robust and I have faith in her, [12:18] they need to be put in place. But there needs to be some way of actually monitoring and following up how these recommendations are put into law, [12:26] put into government, put into departments and not allowed to fall away. [12:30] All these inquiries happen at taxpayers' expense and the point is they're supposed to be proper and meaningful change afterwards. [12:38] And I really believe there's a way that these need to be enforced and policed going forward in perpetuity to get the benefit of all of what we – [12:46] I mean something good has to come out of what the appalling tragedies that we've suffered and that can only be that this doesn't happen again [12:52] and that can only be if recommendations are enforced. [12:59] Ryan from the Mail. Thanks for everybody making themselves available to us during this process. [13:05] My first question is to Neil. The families clearly want what they don't have currently, which is VC, facing trial and on a murder charge. [13:17] Can you talk us through, realistically, how likely that is please? [13:21] And also Lee mentioned about the real hard work that the families have done picking holes in the evidence, [13:30] finding where there were gaps. I wonder if maybe somebody from the families could talk about how we're here today [13:38] as a result of you guys having to take on an extraordinary amount of work while also grieving for your loved ones. Thank you. [13:49] I'll just address to me, but it does link into the first in a sense because as a legal team we've never known a group of founders like this, [14:01] you know, the raw pain and grief of what's gone on over the last three years, but their ability to campaign at a level that we've never seen before [14:09] and to secure a statutory inquiry in the time that they did in the face of a lot of pushback was incredible. [14:17] And you heard Sandra today talk about not getting the answers to everything. [14:22] Well, I think that inquiry doesn't give you the answers to everything. We got there quickly. We've not got an outcome yet. [14:28] We must obviously respect the process and leave Verona to take conclusions. [14:34] But I think everybody saw enough from that inquiry to understand the failings before, during and after, across the institutions, between institutions, [14:45] and really top-down. So you've got people that draw big salaries that don't have the accountability at the same time. [14:51] So that's a big area where the families are looking to campaign for change. [14:55] But to go to your first question, at the minute there's no legal platform which to look at VC's sentence. [15:02] But these families have campaigned hard in many respects, and I don't put it past them to achieve a change in the law to allow that to happen. [15:12] And that's part of the approach to government, to ministers, to prime ministers, to the health secretary, to look at that, [15:18] to look at the mental health legislation that's coming in that looks too patient-centric at the compromise of public safety, [15:26] to look at aspects of the regulators' performance and their fitness for purpose. [15:30] So in essence, we don't put anything past this. [15:33] I'm going to hold you to that. [15:35] Can I say something to that as well? [15:37] The thing that people see is what sits here now, which is all of us looking like we're sort of in control of everything, [15:46] and it's all brilliant, and we're fighting, and we're great campaigners. [15:50] But the actual cold hard reality is this takes its toll on all of us. [15:56] We are, in our personal lives, destroyed, and we're fighting on to do what's right for our loved ones. [16:09] And without sounding too glib, we're here to push on for the betterment of the country. [16:18] As Sandra said at the beginning, this can't continue. [16:21] We're seeing it happening more and more and more, and it's just got to stop. [16:26] We've got to, you know, there's elephants in the room that we're addressing, [16:29] and they need, you know, we just need to get on with it. [16:32] I know when we had a meeting at Early Doors with Alex Chalk, and we were talking to him, [16:40] and I remember him saying, and it probably goes back to what Neil just said a second ago and alluded to, [16:45] it's just because it's the law doesn't mean it's right. [16:47] And I think... [16:48] And just because it's the law doesn't mean it hasn't got to change. [16:50] Absolutely. [16:51] So I forgot that second bit. [16:52] That's quite important. [16:53] Yeah, that's probably the important bit. [16:54] But it just, you know, we need to, you know, as families, we need... [16:58] We will not stop, you know. [17:01] There's times when I know probably all of us have just felt we can't go on anymore. [17:05] But I suppose the beauty of this, I call it the perfect storm. [17:08] It's, you've got very different people that can hold each other up when they need to hold each other up. [17:13] And there's times when we're down and other people hold you up. [17:18] I've had many conversations with Sandra when he's going, I've had enough, but then he comes back and I do the same. [17:25] And we all do it. [17:26] We just, but we, you know, we have to, we have to get change. [17:29] I can't get to the, I can't get to my deathbed, you know, feels like it's coming closer and closer all the time without change. [17:38] I need to know for, for, for me personally, and I know it's the same for these guys, for our loved ones, we need to make this change now. [17:46] You know, and we can't wait to, I mean, I'm absolutely sure the chair will do the right thing and the report will be robust. [17:56] But the report's not for nearly another year. [17:58] And how many people now need to die? [18:01] How many people need to be assaulted? [18:02] How many people, what needs to happen is change now. [18:06] And that's what we need to get to the government now to say, stop tinkering, stop mucking around. [18:12] Let's, let's get on with it. [18:14] I think just on that point as well. [18:17] I think the change should have happened a long time ago. [18:20] It's, it's been almost three years now. [18:22] And it feels like all these institutions are just waiting to be told what to do. [18:27] Like they should be making these changes straight away. [18:30] There's every day you could turn the news on and someone's been stabbed, someone's been attacked. [18:34] Something's happened, especially in Nottingham, like the crime in Nottingham, like it's just, just, just. [18:39] And the fact that nothing is being done, there's no proactivity from anyone. [18:43] It feels like they're just sat waiting for the chair to give her recommendations. [18:47] So they can do it for a couple of months. [18:49] And then like Sinead said, like with the clueless report, it just falls away and we're back to square one again. [18:54] Michael Hartley, Nottingham Post. [19:11] I just want to ask, obviously, being all the way through the inquiry, I wanted to ask about the excuses that you'd heard from individuals, if that makes sense. [19:20] So I know that, I mean, from my memory, the police themselves must have said multiple times that they didn't have time to check systems, even if it was just a quick search. [19:27] I just wondered what you made, I've seen some of your actions throughout the inquiry, sometimes in just kind of shock and disbelief of what people have said. [19:37] I just wondered what stuck with you the most of what you've kind of heard over the 14 or so weeks in terms of people, what people have said in terms of why they didn't do what they should have done. [19:47] I think sometimes what they don't say is what's shocking, and it's the conduct, I believe, of some that has been really alarming. [19:59] I believe that we've seen a lot of defensiveness, a huge amount of evasiveness, and actually quite a bit of arrogance and irritation of being there, and that's hard to swallow. [20:13] And, you know, whilst I know we were, it's an inquiry, like St. Joyce says, it's not a trial. [20:22] They take an oath to give the truth, and I wonder how absolute some of that truth is, because there's an awful lot of excuses. [20:32] And once dug a little bit deeper and they're uncovered, then, you know, we have had some U-turns, haven't we, in what's been proven. [20:41] And I think, if you imagine doing your job, you know, we all do things and we don't, sometimes we fail or, you know, we don't make the right decisions, but, you know, three years down the line, you're going to have to put forward every email that you wrote, every piece of documentation you completed or didn't complete very well, WhatsApp messages and the like. [21:03] And that level of scrutiny is obviously unforeseen for most individuals. [21:11] And it still shocks me how poor it's been. The excuses that we've heard on the whole aren't validated. [21:19] The lack of resources, definitely. But there's a lack of resources in every department of every part of the country. [21:27] I actually think a lot of it is as simple as people just aren't doing their jobs properly. [21:32] They don't care enough. And there's no recourse for proper accountability when it goes so badly wrong. [21:38] And by holding proper accountability, I do think it will change. [21:44] Can I just jump in there? Josh, I'm going to tell you my low light as opposed to my high light because it's only bad stuff. [21:52] The medics in Nottingham, the psychiatrists, it was staggering to hear some of the excuses. [22:00] The poor risk assessments, the failure to treat. My own mother's a psychiatrist. She's in her 80s. [22:08] She used to go to work in a prison in Dublin. And she said, why wasn't this guy given DEPA medication and treated properly? [22:15] Why was he discharged after such short periods of time? And there was no continuity of care. [22:20] We heard one psychiatrist, two psychiatrists. We must have heard from eight psychiatrists all together, all told. [22:27] And there was no joining up with the dots and he wasn't treated properly. [22:30] And I blame the psychiatrist for discharging him without so much as a decent discharge letter to his GP or risk assessment. [22:37] And I believe that's where a lot of the fault lies in my view as a doctor myself. [22:43] I will never forgive them for their lack of treatment and their incompetent discharge. [22:48] I don't believe they're fit to practice. And I will happily go on the record and say that. [22:53] I do not believe they're fit to practice. And I think the regulator does need to take a look at some of these psychiatrists. [22:58] Yeah, and if I can, Josh, as we call it, our low light. I mean, it was all there to see. [23:06] We had senior police officers from Nottinghamshire Police. I mean, really senior. [23:12] That didn't even know that my dad was out there laying his body cold for 15 hours. [23:20] Until the day before. I think the day before. Because we asked the question. [23:27] We were the ones that posed it. And then we got a petty apology. [23:31] We also had IOPC saying that they're waiting for the inquiry to get all the information. [23:37] That's their job, is to go out there and find out these things. [23:41] Not for us to do all of the work for them. And I think we've just... [23:47] It's a great question, but we could sit here for a good few days talking about every little failure that we've seen. [23:54] Yeah. [23:55] Yeah, I think Darren alluded to, you know, we've got a... [23:59] You can imagine the Rhodes Gallery that we've got. And there's a lot of them. [24:03] And we will be calling for accountability and heads to roll because we think it's justified. [24:08] But also remember that we're not just facing the incompetence of people doing the jobs they're paid for properly. [24:14] We've also had to face the most grievous and unforgivable level of misconduct in data breaches. [24:21] Police officers choosing to watch the body cam footage of Barnaby and Grace in their final moments being treated for no reason whatsoever. [24:33] And that, we were never made aware of that in sufficient detail until this inquiry. [24:40] The disgraceful, disgusting WhatsApp messages that were shared between the police. [24:46] The fact that we have uncovered at least 150 members of staff at the university hospitals, not the mental hospital, [24:56] who chose to look at Barney Grace and Ian's records. [24:59] And the vast majority of them, we believe at least two thirds with no justification. [25:04] They just look, what do you want to do? Do you want to see what happened to Barney? [25:07] Do you want to see how dreadful the injuries were? [25:09] They were that bad. And that sickens me. [25:12] And council staff accessing files. I don't know if I've forgotten. I've probably forgotten some. [25:18] But we're talking about hundreds and hundreds of people. Oh, court staff and prison staff as well. [25:21] I think that's with the CPS, Neil. Is that right? [25:24] So I think it's just, it's the state of our public services in this country. It's conduct. [25:29] And not everybody. It's so hard because it sounds like we hate all police and doctors. We don't. [25:34] I feel so sorry for the vast majority that are good and decent people. [25:38] But we just seem to have uncovered an awful lot of, an awful lot of the worms. [25:44] Nihal Gohil from The Guardian. Thank you so much for making the time today. [25:51] And I'm really sorry for your loss. [25:54] What are the main legislative changes that you're calling for? [25:58] Or even changes to guidance that you're calling for? [26:01] So the inquiry heard about the absence of communication between different agencies. [26:06] GDPR restrictions. The guidance on sectioning and so on. [26:11] So yeah, I'd be keen to hear what you are specifically calling for. [26:14] Can I, let me start by first saying that, I think with GDPR and things like that, [26:20] I think there's a lack of understanding, which, you know, a humble GP like me understands, [26:26] that the public safety comes over everything else. [26:29] And that should be known to every doctor, otherwise you're not fit to practice. [26:32] If you hear that public safety is going to be compromised somewhere, [26:35] you're under duty to breach records. [26:38] So people use it more to bring a sense of openness rather than transparency, [26:43] rather than, you know, bring clarity. [26:46] And that's wrong. [26:47] I think the Mental Health Act, and this is only my opinion, I'm not a lawyer, [26:52] I think the new Mental Health Act has vast gaps in it. [26:57] And I think that doesn't cover risk properly. [26:59] That is way too, you know, patient-leaning in terms of safety. [27:05] But I leave that to imminent lawyers like Neil, and like the chair of the inquiry, [27:13] to suggest to the government what is, you know, what will be something that will protect the public. [27:18] Because it's become amply clear through this process, the protection of the public really does take a higher priority to me than the individual person. [27:29] Otherwise these things will keep happening. [27:31] And there are several other things in law. [27:33] You know, the fact that doctors don't seem to know the codes of practice with how they practice. [27:40] You know, the fact that there are guidances out there that are not being used. [27:44] There is no excuse for that. [27:45] You know, we all have continuous professional development. [27:48] And to not know the codes of practice of even discharge of your own hospital, for example, is utterly despicable. [27:55] To not know codes of practice where the police had their codes of practice in terms of information sharing. [28:00] It's really been laid down. [28:02] To not know those is unbelievable and a complete failure. [28:06] Yeah. [28:08] If you think about what happened with Kalken, he was discharged in September 2022. [28:13] The Responsible Clinician was one of those giving evidence. [28:18] And he was discharged for non-engagement and non-attendance at meetings. [28:22] You know, she didn't do, they didn't do a risk assessment. [28:26] The letter that was sent for discharge was sent to a generic GP's address at the University of Potterfield, [28:32] of which I think they had 40,000 plus students as patients. [28:36] And there was nothing about his medication. [28:39] There was nothing about his diagnosis. [28:41] But remember, this is someone that had been sectioned four times. [28:45] Every single section was for a violent assault on others. [28:49] He had had six mental health assessments within two years. [28:54] And there was an outstanding warrant, no bail. [28:58] And the lack of professional curiosity and professionalism. [29:02] I agree with Sinead that that's not safe practice. [29:05] So some things have been addressed already. [29:07] I believe that that doesn't happen, already doesn't happen now in mental health threats. [29:12] But we can't dismiss and we can't be afraid to talk about those who are so seriously mentally unwell, [29:18] who have got violence as a risk. [29:21] And I risk to others, not just to themselves, [29:24] because at least two people a week are being murdered through mental health crimes. [29:28] And at least a quarter of a million serious assaults happen every year in this country, [29:33] where people sustain life-changing injuries. [29:36] And only 40% of perpetrators who have committed mental health homicide have ever in the past [29:47] ever faced any form of criminal justice for that. [29:50] So what I'm saying is the indicators are all there. [29:53] Over 90% of people who go on to kill through mental health have had contact with the police. [29:59] Yet only 40% of those have ever actually been prosecuted for anything. [30:04] So it's clear those policies and procedures aren't being adhered to. [30:07] And that's causing innocent lives to be lost. [30:11] And it's destroying countless families. [30:13] Emily Williamson, BBC East Midlands. [30:16] A question for all of you. [30:18] This weekend marks the third anniversary of those dreadful attacks. [30:21] I want to know firstly, have you been told how the councils in Nottingham are marking it? [30:26] Are there any official plans to mark the anniversary? [30:29] And more importantly, how are you going to remember Grace, Barney and Ian on the 13th of June? [30:35] Well, I'll address the council. [30:37] We're still waiting to hear back for about all the teddy bears [30:41] and stuff that were left on the 13th of June 2023. [30:44] So we're three years down the line and we still haven't had that answer yet. [30:48] So that just shows really. [30:50] Yeah, I think the local MPs, they got their picture at the time. [30:56] Yeah. [30:57] Back in 2023 and that's about as far as it's extended. [31:02] Everything, I'm sure, with regards to the anniversaries. [31:06] You know, last year we did the, we did the walk that was organised by the families. [31:11] I know Sinead Sandjoy have organised something for this Saturday as well. [31:19] But no, we've been following. [31:21] We wouldn't be holding our breath for the council or anybody in Nottingham to do anything for us. [31:27] Don't get me wrong, some of our best friends live in Nottingham, the codes being them. [31:32] The people of Nottingham are lovely. [31:35] The council, the members of parliament, they haven't reached out to us. [31:38] They never have done. [31:40] In fact, the council, I think, arranged their own little trip to church at the first anniversary, [31:47] which they didn't even bother to notify us, but I think they just wanted a photo opportunity. [31:51] So the answer, I mean, is that absolutely nothing has been arranged. [31:54] But we ourselves, we as a family, are going to visit Benton, go to a prayer in Paul's church, [32:11] and we will, the priest that presided over Grace's funeral will join us, [32:18] and we will go to a spot on Upcaston Road. [32:23] But this is somebody's home, and we shouldn't be, or this is a public street, [32:29] and we shouldn't have to go to a public street to remember the victims of the Nottingham attacks. [32:33] There should be something. [32:34] I think they should have something a little bit more concrete to remember, [32:40] and be a memorial that people might be able to take at the moment. [32:44] But I don't know, it's not apparent to us at the council of any intention of doing anything, [32:49] so it might be left up to ourselves. [32:51] It's such a shame as well, sorry, because of the people of Nottingham are wonderful. [32:57] They all came together, and I've always said it, it felt like a massive cuddle at the time, [33:03] people putting their arms around us. [33:05] It wasn't just us sat here, just the survivors. [33:09] This impacted so many people across the city. [33:13] So I feel for them there should be something acknowledgement-wise from the council, [33:20] but that's just my opinion. [33:23] Yeah, no, I have the same view on that as from the sitter. [33:27] You know, it happened in our sitter. [33:29] We've been really busy these last few months. [33:32] You know, the last thing we've been trying to think of is what we're going to do tomorrow day. [33:36] That should have been in place for us. [33:38] You know, I'm from Nottingham, and I find it appalling. [33:41] Nottingham City Council haven't done something. [33:44] You know, it's next week. [33:46] Next weekend, it's appalling from Nottingham City Council. [33:49] I think we're going to just from the Webber family. [33:54] This year, we're not going to go to Nottingham. [33:57] We sort of made a decision that we'd finally loved Cornwall, [34:02] and we've got a little place down there. [34:04] And we're going to go to Cornwall with some friends, [34:07] and probably haven't even said to Emma this year, [34:10] but I'd like to probably go to Polseth Beach, [34:12] where Barney used to quite enjoy surfing and being there, [34:16] and probably just put a rose into the sea for him. [34:19] I think at some point, and Sinead's right, [34:23] we need to, you know, there needs to be something probably more, [34:26] because walking down that street is so painful for me. [34:31] I don't want to keep doing that every year. [34:33] I don't think I can. [34:35] But, yeah, maybe we need to have something there [34:38] that's a bit more, as Sinead's just so rightly said, [34:41] maybe that's going to come down to us to have to sort out, [34:44] but we'd better sort everything else out, so, you know. [34:47] I think this is a case that is going to change our country. [34:54] I think this is a case that will make our country safer [34:57] for families, for young ones. [34:59] And I think this case and the unfortunate tragedies [35:04] have played out in public, and I think not to have somewhere [35:09] that can be dedicated. [35:11] They're not ashamed. [35:14] I think this case will make a difference. [35:15] I can't. [35:18] Yeah, I think that the level of trauma that I carry, [35:21] as Dave knows, I find it really difficult to go to Nottingham [35:25] because you can drive in, and it's certainly not the people. [35:29] No, it's something I don't feel particularly after everything [35:38] we've endured the last few months. [35:40] But to anyone who is in Nottingham, if you see these guys, [35:43] all these guys, or you want to light a candle or say a prayer, [35:48] please do it for the three of them, because I know it's a great city, [35:53] and I know how much Barney loved it. [35:56] And, yeah, I can't believe it's three years. [36:00] It sounds a long time probably to normal people, but it feels like it. [36:04] Nick Shanahan, LBC. [36:10] Thank you for having us here today. [36:11] And as another Nottingham warm reporter, I'd add my apologies [36:14] that there's not more for you to come back to in the city. [36:17] I just wanted to ask all of you, do you think this was bad luck, [36:22] that all these awful failings lined up in the worst possible way [36:25] for Nottingham and for your families? [36:27] Or do you think it's just luck that's keeping us from losing our lives [36:31] or our loved ones to something very similar in the future, [36:34] tomorrow, next week? [36:36] I don't think luck has anything to do with it. [36:38] I think it's clear to see back in 2020 if people just did their jobs properly, [36:43] none of us would be sat here now. [36:45] I think that's exactly it. [36:47] I think luck has nothing to do with it. [36:49] I think it's happening all the time, like I said earlier. [36:53] It keeps happening. [36:55] I mean, two a week is too, well, too many. [36:59] I mean, you should not be having, it shouldn't be happening. [37:01] It's something that can be stopped. [37:04] The amount of opportunities to stop him that we've just had to endure [37:09] over the last however many months it was, [37:14] it's all become a blur to me now, but it's unforgivable. [37:18] There were so many opportunities to divert his course, to stop him, [37:24] and they weren't taken for multitude of reasons for different agencies. [37:30] So, no, I don't think it was just an unlucky day for Barney, Grace and Ian. [37:35] I think it was something that should never have happened. [37:39] And I think they now know that. [37:42] But I think their ability to admit it is zero. [37:46] And I think they just wanted to, hence the speed, [37:49] they took it to a sentencing hearing. [37:52] They wanted to just push it under the carpet like they do all the time, [37:56] try and get rid of it, try and get rid of it. [37:58] And if we hadn't thought the way we thought, it would have happened. [38:01] This would have just been something that people would have forgotten about by now [38:04] and we'd be sort of crawling into balls in our own little areas. [38:09] Yeah, doing nothing. [38:11] Where, as now, we have highlighted what happens to other families [38:15] all over the country regularly, far too regularly. [38:19] There are many callocanes amongst us out there. [38:22] The SIO, Lee Sanders, he said to us when it happened, [38:34] there was a sliding doors moment. [38:36] You were unlucky. [38:37] I mean, how insulting is that? [38:38] It wasn't a sliding doors moment. [38:40] Somebody, you know, he targeted students. [38:42] He stalked students. [38:44] He assaulted students. [38:45] He knew exactly where he was. [38:47] He knew exactly what he was doing. [38:48] You know, don't say to me and to Barney's dad [38:53] that it was a sliding doors moment because it's not. [38:56] And I think if urgent action is in you, [39:00] it's not just university students. [39:02] You can't send your children to holiday clubs. [39:05] You can't catch a bus. [39:06] You know, you can't get on a train. [39:09] Because you don't know who's amongst us [39:10] and we have to be prepared to talk about the difficult facts [39:15] and bear the unpalatable in order to make things better. [39:20] You can't have all of the services in Nottingham failing. [39:27] The people of Nottinghamshire don't deserve that. [39:30] You cannot have the regional mental health director [39:33] who doesn't take any action on the facts that previous [39:36] and very, you know, highlighted cases by yourselves, [39:39] your fellow journalists, have been present months before [39:42] the Nottingham attacks happened but didn't seem to do anything. [39:46] There seems to be, the inquiry showed, [39:48] there seems to be no transaction between the regional mental health director [39:51] to the national health health director. [39:55] There seems to be no transaction between the integrated care board [39:59] linearly upwards. [40:00] There seems to be no interaction between the mental health trust [40:03] of the attacks. [40:04] And there were, there were homicides that happened a month before, [40:07] two months before. [40:08] There was, you know, a serious alert. [40:11] for people in the city in these positions not to learn from those things. [40:16] This was far from luck. [40:18] This was bound to come to that point. [40:21] It was predictable. [40:22] And it was predictable, unfortunately. [40:24] The level of care that the patients are not getting is predictable. [40:29] And unless things change, it will happen again. [40:31] It will. [40:32] It will happen again. [40:33] And our, and our children and our father paid the price. [40:36] So, unfairly. [40:38] So, I don't think Locke had any views that came all together. [40:44] And people who were failing. [40:45] That was, it was bound to happen. [40:47] You were bound to get that clash point. [40:49] And unfortunately, we all bore the brunt of it. [40:52] I think you said at the end of your question about the public, [40:56] the general public feeling safe, like, going out on the streets. [40:59] A lot of people have said, um, oh, it was just wrong place, [41:02] wrong time for, for Grace Barney, you know, Ian. [41:04] But it wasn't. [41:05] They were in the right place. [41:06] They have every right to be doing what they were doing. [41:08] Barney and Grace were going home after a night out. [41:10] My dad was on his way to work. [41:12] They have the right to feel safe in the city and go about their business. [41:17] The wrong person was Calacaine being there. [41:19] He should have never been allowed to be there at any point. [41:22] And that's where, you know, it's not down to Locke. [41:26] It's down to this, like, Shaleen Sandjo just said, [41:28] this was predictable a long time ago. [41:30] And unfortunately, we're here because of it. [41:32] I think the other thing as well is, and I said it, [41:36] I was on the witness stand, is, you know, lessons learned has to stop. [41:41] We have to stop saying that. [41:42] Because cold hard route is people don't learn lessons. [41:46] And the only way you learn lessons sometimes is through accountability. [41:49] But, you know, Sinead mentioned the Clunas report 30 years ago. [41:55] Well, there's your lessons. [41:56] You've not learned a thing. [41:57] So, you know, you now have to change. [42:00] And actually, sometimes the only way to change is through accountability. [42:03] You know, where people actually think, you know what? [42:05] It's not about fear. [42:06] It's not about, you know, it's just fear that their job is going to go [42:09] and they're going to lose their livelihoods or whatever it is. [42:11] Because if you do your job properly, that's not going to happen. [42:15] And that's all we've ever asked for, is just do your job. [42:18] If we'd gone into this inquiry or we'd stopped even before the inquiry [42:23] and seen evidence that everyone had done their jobs properly [42:26] and we were, as you just said, unlucky, it would have been okay. [42:31] You know, we're not doing this as a witch hunt. [42:33] We're not trying to go after people. [42:36] But it's turned into that, unfortunately, [42:38] because they've all gone with something to do with us. [42:40] And then we've seen the, you've all seen the evidence now. [42:43] Actually, you could have, there's so many people who could have stopped it. [42:47] So, it hasn't, yeah. [42:50] Changes to happen. [42:59] Thank you. [43:00] Fiona Hamilton at the Times. [43:01] I had two questions, if possible. [43:03] The first one is about that issue of accountability. [43:06] And obviously, with the relation to the data breaches, [43:09] people have been sacked and there's investigations. [43:12] But I wanted to ask specifically about the medics who treated calicane, [43:15] the psychiatrists and others. [43:17] Have you been given any assurance at all that cases will be referred to the regulator? [43:22] And has a single person been placed under disciplinary investigation? [43:27] And my, excuse me, my second question was about the issue of the lack of adversarial process. [43:34] And aside from his family, because you've articulated that already, [43:38] are there any other issues that you feel would have been better examined [43:42] that you feel haven't been? [43:44] And I suppose I'm pointing partly there to the failure to section him for longer. [43:49] The failure to section him in the first place. [43:51] And the failure to give him depot. [43:53] And would you talk us through if you feel there are elements there [43:58] that haven't been properly examined and why? [44:01] We'd start by some of the regulatory things, because Sinead and I are doctors, Fiona. [44:07] And I think your questions are really pertinent. [44:10] There's a lack of transparency who has been, whilst I understand some of those reasons, [44:20] I don't understand all of them, because we are here to seek accountability. [44:24] Because systems are made out of people and you don't hold them accountable, [44:27] you go and change the system. [44:28] I've been saying it. [44:30] And I think your question is so spot on, because we have had no transparency [44:37] in terms of who has been referred to either any of the regulators with any of the professions to date. [44:44] My understanding is that nobody has been directly referred to the GMC. [44:50] The hospitals have said, oh, we keep the GMC alive of what's going on. [44:56] But I don't think they can do that without the GMC actually scrutinising the medical management at each juncture. [45:05] It's already become clear there's been criticism of the failure to section. [45:09] Section two, it's only for a short period of section three. Convert to section two. [45:14] From what I can see, there's actually only one practitioner who's actually treated him appropriately. [45:20] I'm not going to go into names, but out of all of the encounters he had. [45:24] So, I'm going to say it, if they haven't been referred to the GMC, [45:31] I think we can seek recourse to that ourselves. [45:36] Because anybody's allowed to refer any doctor to the GMC as a private individual. [45:40] And the fact that the hospital didn't even want to share the names of psychiatrists with us [45:44] in the first instance was not allowing us to have that right, which I think is outrageous. [45:51] So, these are parts that cover up. Professional protectionism is rife amongst the medical profession. [45:58] So, they didn't want to share the names of these doctors with us. [46:01] The only reason we got the names of the doctors is because of the public inquiry. [46:04] The trust didn't and the NHS did not want to share the homicide review, the Themis report, [46:12] and it was only the intervention of, in fact, the Times publishing an article, [46:18] and Wes treating himself insisting that the Themis report was published, [46:22] but even in that there was no names. [46:24] So, it's only through the public inquiry that we even get the opportunity to examine the individual clinicians [46:30] that have been part of his failed treatment and his failed discharge and his multiple failed discharge [46:37] because he had a turning door, a revolving door of admissions in and out of hospital, [46:41] never treated properly, never followed nice guidelines. [46:44] So, yeah, I mean, the regulator needs to look at these doctors and they need to be scrutinised properly, [46:50] and I'm happy to say that and go on the record. [46:53] Fiona, I think it's very, very important to highlight that your article in the Times [46:57] was published absolutely at the right time for us to use and apply pressure on Secretary of State for Health, [47:06] and it's actually because of your article that he was pressurised into stating [47:10] that hospitals must be published for victims, which is only fair. [47:17] Let me still point out to you that medical reports are published with no names, [47:23] so when we even ask people to say could you number consultant one, consultant two, consultant three, consultant four, consultant five, consultant six, [47:30] they didn't even mention that. [47:32] The grade of the doctor or type of a nurse. [47:36] You cannot just fob off a family of victims with a report that doesn't give you even, you know, the detail as to, [47:45] we were asking questions right at the very last minute. [47:48] Was it four consultants who sectioned him and four consultants who got it wrong, [47:52] or was it one consultant that got it wrong four times? [47:55] It's a big difference, and we weren't even given that level of detail, [47:58] and that's why we have said through Neil that the medical report that was given to us is not fit for purpose, [48:04] and because it's got way too many holds, yes it's got recommendations but way too many holds, [48:09] and no victim should be treated like that. [48:11] If there are reports there, some people get redacted reports where you can't even read a single word, [48:17] and that's how, that's the contempt with which families of victims are treated. [48:21] All reports, we must be transparent in society, all reports should be given to victims' families. [48:28] That's what they deserve when they've had a loss like ours. [48:31] That's what all families in our country deserve, and it is completely wrong. [48:35] It's treating them with spite, where the hospital give them reports that are completely redacted, [48:40] in the thin veil of GDPR, which is utter nonsense. [48:44] Sorry, just very quickly, we just had 11 members of staff sacked and 14 facing final warnings [48:53] with regards to the data breaches of looking at our loved ones' records, [49:00] and I've made it extremely clear that there will be further action being considered from us [49:06] with regards to both the hospital and those individuals, [49:09] and I say the same with regards to the court staff, the police, and the prison. [49:13] The police and the prison service and anyone who didn't do their jobs properly. [49:17] I think the fact that NHS on the whole do no-fault investigations and reviews speaks volumes [49:24] as to why it's in the state that it's in, and it isn't being vindictive. [49:29] It's just, it's getting accountability, and we will pursue that. [49:34] But a large part of the problem we've had is that as victims when you're thrown into this horror show, [49:39] you have no rights really, you have no advocacy really. [49:43] We are fortunate we came together and fought hard for nearly a year [49:48] before we were introduced to our legal team, who have then supported us so well since. [49:54] But I'm very conscious of the many families and victims that haven't had, [50:00] I can't even say the word opportunity, but haven't been able to do what we've done. [50:04] So this isn't an exception in Nottingham. [50:07] I think unfortunately it's, we've just been able to dig it out. [50:11] So that there will be, there will be much further action considered against anyone and everyone [50:19] who is in appropriate list data or failed to do their jobs. [50:26] I'm going to be brief because we'll close in a minute. [50:31] I think one of our, one of our big frustrations is the aggregation of responsibility by the regulators. [50:38] There's been, we've had correspondence where we've been invited. [50:41] I think, you know, Nottingham is not isolated. [50:52] The issues in the NHS were much deeper, much wider. [50:55] There were scandals in all sorts of NHS trusts. [50:57] And that all becomes about as deference, accountable. [51:01] Management committees can't get hold off, can't control. [51:07] We need to see that change. [51:12] Not only fat salaries, but bonuses and the ability to move positions in different various towns, [51:17] but responsibility attached to that. [51:19] The only way we can do that, so there's a top down approach, [51:22] which filters down to the lower act because, as you say, [51:27] there's been a number of people that have been sanctioned and disciplined [51:31] because of data breaches, but none of these are doctors, none of these are people. [51:35] And until we have a top down approach, until we have true accountability for doing their jobs, [51:43] continue to... [51:44] Thank you everybody. [52:06] Thank you. [52:07] Thanks so much. [53:42] Thank you.