LIVE! Karmelo Anthony Guilty: Why Self-Defense Failed — Cody Thomas + Dr. Patrice Berry

[00:00:00] Joshua Ritter: the verdict is in texas teen carmelo anthony has been found guilty of murder for the 2025 stabbing death of 17 year old austin metcalf tonight court tv's cody thomas takes us inside the courtroom for the verdict the sentencing and the reaction outside the courthouse all this and more tonight on courtroom confidential good evening and welcome everybody it is wednesday june 10th 2026 and this is your wednesday night live from courtroom confidential the fastest growing true crimes news channel on youtube thank you all so much for being here to uh d bullard and city kitty and nani ann and mindy lou who nana of four i love to see so many of you coming back again again chihuahua mama mindy lou who there we go um thank you guys so much for being here um here's what's happening tonight we are going to be talking about the carmelo anthony case obviously the the verdict was uh yesterday uh he was sentenced to 35 years in prison uh we're going to break that all down we've got cody thomas from court tv uh he's been our guest the last couple of times uh nights here in a row you all love him and we love hearing his insights from inside the courtroom and the question we are trying to answer is why did the self-defense claim in this case fail to convince jurors what was it that simply could not uh convince them later too please stick around because dr patrice barry is also here there she is she's used to be here uh she's going to be joining us in a little bit we're also going to be talking about uh this the psychological aspects of the carmelo anthony verdict and what he might go be going through right now and also a new development in the carlos brown case he was found incompetent and i want to really talk about what that actually means so um for those of you who are new thank you so much for joining us we're so glad to have you my name is joshua ritter i'm a former prosecutor with the la district attorney's office i was there for just over 10 years before i left to go into private practice as a criminal defense attorney and this is courtroom confidential where we try our best to present to you both sides of the courtroom both sides of the stories both sides of the issues and we hope that we do that and this is our wednesday night live we call it that because it's on wednesday it's at night and it's live and it's your midweek catch up on all things true crime take a deep breath everybody you've made it it's hump week it's hump day you've made it halfway through the week you're doing just fine hit that like button if you haven't already subscribe if you haven't already and share this with anybody that you think might enjoy it but let me get on my guest here hello my friend how are you happy to be back here [00:02:55] Cody Thomas: it does feel like hump week it's been a long time but we're here love it love to see everyone that's coming back third time's a charm here with you josh thanks for having me yeah thank you for making the [00:03:07] Joshua Ritter: time too because uh you've been a lifesaver because again to remind everybody there's no cameras inside of the courtroom uh and and i was talking with somebody about it earlier today it's just one of those cases because we're seeing it now from the reaction from people outside from the reaction from people in the twitter sphere and everywhere else that a lot of people think justice was done a lot of people think it wasn't and a lot of people think that this was a miscarriage of justice and that he was railroaded and that race played an element and all of that but if you weren't inside the courtroom you would know differently but we don't know because we only had we had no cameras but we have you kind of helpfully uh um navigate us through those waters as much as you can and you've done an excellent job so we appreciate you being back well i mean let's jump right into it the the verdict the closing arguments how should i start this let's start with closing arguments because i don't want to step over that how did those um how did those uh how did those play out because i know it's interesting that the judge allotted them each an amount of time and the defense or the prosecution deferred and allowed the defense to go first tell us how that worked out yeah so the prosecution reserved their right to [00:04:30] Cody Thomas: respond allowing the defense to go up first and you got to give me a moment here josh i want to walk through some uh some key moments from both of them because in your intro they're talking about talking about the reasons this self-defense claim didn't work the prosecution actually outlined four reasons why it didn't work and i'll go through those but we'll start with the defense here um they let off and i have notes here that i still have they let off initially their initial statement pretty much saying austin metcalf had no legal rights to use force to eject carmelo from that tent he had no right to put his hands on carmelo because carmelo was in a public place that was the the crux of their entire closing argument each side had uh 35 minutes each but this was the beginning of the defenses and just some more highlights from uh from what they were talking about they said it's a really important fact that you've heard that carmelo was still seated that was uh the defense's narrative about what went down that carmelo was seated uh austin metcalf came up and that initial touch happened he was standing carmelo was sitting down they talked about you know self-defense that's the whole claim they're saying of course you can't use self-defense too early but you all also can't use it too late because if you wait too late then self-defense is meaningless so they were just really i thought [00:05:37] Joshua Ritter: that was actually an interesting point i mean he he makes the he's making the clever point that like listen it's only self-defense you know it doesn't really apply to this case but it's only self-defense because he's the last man standing right if he had a new self-defense then you know they're trying to make them draw the conclusions things could have ended up very differently now that again i don't think that applies to this case but it's a clever way of explaining self-defense exactly exactly and [00:06:08] Cody Thomas: and josh the the kicker to me this is how they wrapped up you know we've heard about the hand in the bag the uh the touch me and see what happens that's the whole thing you know the whole kitten caboodle of this whole case yeah they addressed that and he kind of did a demonstrative gesture he was saying if i put if i have my hand in this bag right i repeatedly tell you don't touch me i tell you i have something in this bag you call my bluff and think i'm bluffing and then i say touch me and see what happens the defense attorney said that's a warning and not provocation that's pretty much how they ended their closing argument now time yeah yeah yeah and uh time for the prosecution to uh come up and respond well let me first line to that go before yeah go ahead how did that what was that [00:06:53] Joshua Ritter: what what was the reaction in the courtroom did anybody react to the jurors are they taking strenuous notes are they is there any atmosphere they're just it was it was everyone was just kind of staring and [00:07:05] Cody Thomas: you know listening it was one of those situations as if you were kind of in like a college classroom where everyone's just listening you know taking in what what they're saying there's no real uh you know visible reaction who knows what mental gymnastics they were thinking um you know we're not psychics but you know they were taking it in no real reaction from there no reaction uh in the in the gallery either of course i've said it many times here on the show that i'm sitting two rows behind the metcalf family and you know and hunter hunter showed up for the first time in the courtroom uh during this trial he was there i forgot to mention that um but he was there he showed some emotion later on but as far as these um closing arguments go prosecutions turned to respond to uh to what they said there to what the defense said first line out of the prosecutor's mouth and i thought this is very powerful for setting the precedent of their closing argument do not let them turn a threat into a warning and he said it twice don't let them turn a threat into a warning and this prosecutor has this like bellowing voice so that kind of you know echoed throughout the entire courtroom and so josh to the point that you made earlier talking about why the self-defense did not work in this case the prosecutor outlined four distinct reasons as to why self-defense didn't apply so i'll walk through them and kind of uh give give little anecdotes about each of them the first one he talked about was provocation the word provoke and with that he said you don't get to provoke the altercation and when someone touches you you use deadly force that was pretty simplistic when he was explaining that he goes on to force disparity you know just the the the different tides of force he said you can meet force with force i.e a shove with the shove you can meet deadly force with deadly force maybe if we both had knives but you can't meet force regular force with deadly force because it has to be proportional you don't get to hurt somebody because they're bigger than you and he said that because we know the defense has been going on about how the metcalf boys were you know 6-1-2-15 or what have you and carmelo's kind of like 5-8-5-9-1-30-1-40 so the defense's narrative was like these two kind of twin tower guys were you know ganging up on the little guy but with that the point that the prosecution made you don't get to hurt or kill somebody just because somebody's bigger than you and maybe talking trash at you so that was the second point third point reasonable belief a belief that would be held by an ordinary or prudent person in the same situation of defendant and then the prosecutor said any reasonable person would not have plunged a knife in austin metcalf's chest and then josh the last one he talked about immediate necessity and asked the jury and you know the the courtroom where was the immediate necessity to plunge a knife into another unarmed man and he made sure to emphasize the word unarmed of course he could provoke away all the day because he had that knife and he was going to come out on top this was murder that was the whole that was the whole shebang those four reasons there josh why the prosecutor said self-defense did not apply and clearly the jury uh took that in because they they went back there and discussed and they had an out with manslaughter they had an out with that if they didn't agree on murder but they agreed that this was intentional they agreed that this was premeditated even if it was only five seconds premeditated you had a hand in the bag saying you know presumably on the blade now that he's a convicted murderer touch me and see what happens you had a hand on a blade your hand in the bag you're thinking about what you want to do with this and then you did it so that's where the jury went with that and ultimately you know sentenced them to 35 years yeah i mean when you hear the the [00:10:23] Joshua Ritter: prosecutor uh lay it out the way that you explained i mean first of all that's excellent advocacy it's breaking down complex kind of um um ideas but making them very easy to wrap your head around the night digest but really i mean the facts of this case are so in support of the prosecution argument i mean it's it you know this wasn't like dazzling lawyering on the part of the prosecution this is a clear when you break it down that simply this is a clear case of murder not self-defense um you know you do not meet a a shove with a stab it's like everybody can understand that a child can understand that you know like it was not a case of somebody reasonably defending themselves even if he felt threatened or intimidated or shoved around or whatever it was he he did not respond to that situation uh in a way that that that i think any reasonable jury would find was was self-defense and so then they're left with um with uh with murder which is interesting because in your explanation of the defense it doesn't sound like they ever tried to make manslaughter out of this they just were arguing for a flat-out acquittal [00:11:45] Cody Thomas: on self-defense right and and you know they did successfully argue the manslaughter to be a lesser included you know which would have been lesser time but the thing about it josh you know so the guilty verdict came back and of course there was reaction with that you know emotional reaction on the metcalf side emotional reaction on the uh anthony side of course has to be expected so now we go into the punishment phase you know uh his mother gets up on the stand pleading for leniency she was the only one they put on the witness stand during that punishment phase and i'll tell you too josh uh his his face you know when he initially you know when the guilty verdict came down he hung his head and the way he was positioned in the courtroom i can only see the back of it and when they walked him out you know you've been remanded by the state you're now in custody of the state they walked him out for a few minutes before that punishment phase got underway so i couldn't initially see his face until he walked back in to hear his crying mother on the stand back for leniency and he just looked so bewildered like i you tell he was crying his eyes are wide his jaw just hanging open and it's like you know i'm thinking you know maybe this is now extraordinarily real to him because while it was while it has been real he's been out on bond we have to remember that so he's been at home he's been around his family i'm sure you know supporters and loved ones have been at his house seeing him he's eating meals that he wants to eat he's watching television still kind of living somewhat of a normal life even though you know he had an ankle monitor on but now he's not going to be going back in that home for a very long time so that was the reaction there and uh the point i was getting at here josh before uh they went to the sentencing phase you know they had some more closing arguments to go with that and the defense brings up for the first time which i feel like should have been if they're going to bring this up now they should have argued it throughout their entire case this thing of sudden passion pretty much implying that this happened you know in the moment you know tensions are rising two frustrated teens and ah and then you stuck them you know not to say you know that he's going to get an acquittal for that but sudden passion would have taken the sentencing down to two to 20 years versus the murder charge with five to 99 years but i'm just sitting there thinking why didn't you bring this up in the beginning and kind of argue around that you know make a narrative around that instead of a full acquittal and [00:13:49] Joshua Ritter: maybe you know he had gotten 10 or 11 years versus 35. i wonder if when the deaths dust settles on this i wonder i wonder if this family and this kid was was um i i'm trying to find find a way of doing this because i don't want to throw people under the bus but it sounds to me like someone had got in their ear and convinced them that they had a stronger case than they actually did because to me this is a case that your attorneys should have been on bended knee begging for some sort of a deal on this thing because there's this is just such a clear-cut case that you're not going to win on self-defense here but but his reaction and the family's reaction i i almost feel like somebody had been telling them it's in the bag don't worry this is self-defense [00:14:45] Cody Thomas: and and and on that topic of a deal josh um monday i believe that was on monday did we talk about how there was that hour and 45 minute yeah yeah and you know that was when the speculation we're sitting there thinking about are they brokering a last minute deal you know that was about and then of course it was just the defense it's resting but to your point it it the the facts of the case are just the facts and it seemed like these facts were astronomically insurmountable like you you can't you can't get over them so i i mean i'm agreeing with you it seems like someone should have said and you know like like i was saying earlier these these lawyers are supposed to be high profile lawyers down here who have been very experienced i'm just wondering why that wasn't the case here but like you know somebody may have gotten in their ear allowed them to think that so i don't know well and [00:15:28] Joshua Ritter: it goes to your point that you were making about why didn't they argue this sudden passion or why didn't they argue towards a manslaughter or anything in closing because if you've been telling your client the whole time i'm going to get you acquitted on self-defense you don't all of a sudden start hedging your bets and closing arguments but i feel like a more realistic approach to this case if you couldn't get a deal would be yeah you want to say self-defense defense but then you want to say and ladies and gentlemen if that is something that you believe doesn't exist here then at the very most what you're looking at is a manslaughter or something but they they didn't do any of that right [00:16:07] Cody Thomas: no no i mean that that that was it just seems like that's where the argument should have been yeah because i mean at the end of the day like i said the facts are the facts they have the body cam of the young man saying i stabbed him i'm not alone i did it i mean so that that alone to me sounds it doesn't sound like a full acquittal because we have we have a dead child on the other side i mean there's [00:16:29] Joshua Ritter: you know you have to be admitting it to it in moments after it happened so listen if if if carmelo anthony showed up with a broken nose and a bloodied face and we'd be talking to me totally different but this is totally different this is not that at all i mean he is untouched practically and he stabbed another young man and again i'm not trying to say i think it's a manslaughter i'm just trying to say that as defense attorneys i can't imagine them not arguing that i i think the jury got it right i think it is a murder case and and that's awful to look at this and go this young man i don't think this young man set out that day to murder anyone but i do think when you look at his actions and what took place in those moments that is a murder case really just tragic all around um i want to highlight some stuff from from the sentencing um his mother uh carmelo's mother took the stand yeah um and made an impassioned plea and then there was a moment that has been highlighted by a lot of outlets on cross-examination from the prosecutor because this is a difficult situation how do you cross-examine someone who's the mother of the defendant she loves and cares for him and i thought this was a this is what reports have come out and i wanted to see how what you thought of this moment the prosecutor asked regardless of what happens you realize he will still get to be part of your life and she said yes i do the the unasked but absolutely resonating question being well the metcalfs don't obviously how did that land do you [00:18:13] Cody Thomas: think so you know the whole her whole uh situation on the witness stand was maybe three minutes right oh wow it was short defense asked it was super short if the defense asked her one question do you think your son regrets his actions and she said i you know i know my baby he's very sorry for for what he's done um i just you know begged for leniency from the jury and then that was pretty much her answer then passed the witness of the prosecution to which he did say this right here regardless of what happens you realize he'll still get to be part of your life which in one sense it's it seemed a little bit um compassionate like you will still get to see your son but on the other sense it's like you know the illusion to you will still get to see your son while this family doesn't you know it was like two sides of of the same coin here a little bit of compassion but a little bit of realization and truth you still get to see yours while the metcalf family doesn't get to see theirs and that's something they brought up uh during their closing arguments before sentencing the prosecution they were saying you know the word community was being thrown out a lot you know uh when he was talking talking about having people in the community take accountability for what they do to keep your community safe and you know the community you want to live in and he was saying that you know with their decision of course not telling the jury what to do but saying you know you could send a message with this you know to deter anyone else from even thinking about doing an act like this and then he was like if you're considering you know a life sentence because again the range was five years to 99 years you know 99 that you're coming out of prison in a box right um and he was saying if you're thinking about a life sentence think about the metcalf family then he looks over towards them jeff metcalf megan metcalf hunter metcap all have been uh assigned life sentences a life sentence of avoiding their home in their heart and i thought that was what really landed uh you know once before they went back in there just under three hours to deliberate that sentence that was the that was what i took away from it and it was a loud you know very boisterous bold point to each of them to which you know the family sitting there arms around each other and everything like that so it was again the prosecution was just on top of it throughout this whole thing of course only four days of testimony [00:20:21] Joshua Ritter: but every piece of it josh they were on top of it four days of testimony god that is so quick [00:20:29] Cody Thomas: really really three and a half because it ended kind of early on on monday when the defense rested around two o'clock that we you know abruptly so really kind of like three and a half days [00:20:37] Joshua Ritter: so it was a whirlwind i've had duis that have taken longer than this case did it's just incredible yeah um i want to uh read some quotes uh that we were able to pull from the impact statements given [00:20:54] Cody Thomas: by the metcalf family no i will say i wasn't there for impact statements because i had to leave out and [00:20:59] Joshua Ritter: do uh television stuff so okay okay well then i'll share these with you and we'll both kind of react to it because i i just thought these were some of the most powerful i mean the sentencing hearings and i've i've told this before you know if if trials are the most dramatic kind of real life experience you can have then the sentencing part of a trial is is just that turned up a notch because it's just you it is some of the most uncomfortable intense moments i've ever had in court is during sentencing hearings megan metcalf this is austin's mother um took the stand and well didn't take the stand she read a statement and many of them many of the metcalfs were addressing carmelo directly and she said you may have just been given a sentence of 35 years you should feel lucky because i've been sentenced to a life without my son and they just crushing that she's saying that and it's interesting too because these are after the jury has already given their sentence [00:22:08] Cody Thomas: i guess they have in texas yeah yeah i mean it's it's like maybe they do it different here and you know i just think josh you know to the point of this uh this quote that she said you have the brother hunter you know the parents obviously weren't there they get the phone call of course you know just a gut-wrenching phone call i can only imagine how that went that your son's been stabbed to death but hunter was there he's never gonna never erase that memory never he's gonna see his his bloody dead brother in his hands for the rest of his life imagine he lives to be 85 90 years old he's always gonna see that and during uh one of the not one of the prosecution's uh closing argument they had a still image from one of those body cams where you can see you know uh austin laying out there while they're doing chest compressions it's kind of like from here down you can't really see his face which i'm kind of glad we didn't because to see a dying boy's face would have been kind of rough but you know you have the body there and when they had that they had it up there for like five minutes just sitting there you know and i'm looking at hunter and that's the only time i saw him um have some emotion some outward emotion he's just like shaking his head and his mom's you know rubbing his back because he's looking up at his head is dead he remembers that day he was there but this was a year and some change ago i'm sure he tries not to he tries his best not to remember it and now here it is right in front of him well of course you know he chose to be here you know and he's just reliving it over and over and over and now he's looking at it again for the rest of his every day yeah yeah [00:23:32] Joshua Ritter: to that point hunter also uh we didn't hear from him during trial which was interesting many people thought we would for the reason you just outlined he was the closest person to some of those events that day uh but he spoke um and he said uh he said the following you took a son a brother a friend and my best friend from this world you took someone from me who was supposed to be an uncle godfather to my kids oh my god now i've got everything taken from you i mean it's it's these people it's still so raw that you can still feel the anger there's a lot of grief and there's still a lot of very [00:24:11] Cody Thomas: anger too you know yeah i'm just i mean it's only been a year and some change right and and you know it leaves me thinking 35 years of course a long time i mean he's eligible for parole after 17 and a half so i mean that doesn't guarantee he's gonna get it but you know it's it's to me that seemed like a defense win because given the circumstances that the jury had to sentence him to they could have put him away forever they could have as hunter outlined here they could have taken everything away from him right but 35 years i mean grand scheme 35 versus never coming back that leads me to how does the metcalfe family feel about that you know do they think that's too light i'm sure i'm sure they do you know because it's it's it's their son's never coming back you know what i mean yeah [00:24:54] Joshua Ritter: and there's nothing that would make them feel any better but yeah i'm sure that they they feel it was [00:24:59] Cody Thomas: like yeah yeah it's it's it's just one of those things man it's just sad all around i was speaking with somebody uh outside the courthouse who described it as kind of like a shakespearean tragedy like one of those old stories you'd read about where it's just it's it's you got one kid that's never coming back yeah one kid who's liberty is taken away for a long long time and they're just [00:25:18] Joshua Ritter: young men who had their whole lives ahead of them lives for lives forever changed for the like that but the decisions of a moment yeah of a moment you know over over essentially nothing right so it's just this is uh this is jeff metcalfe i this is the last one i want to read here uh this is austin's father um he looked directly at uh carmelo and said you can't even look me in the eye right now but you can stab my effing son in the heart and i just oh my god you you were in the room for this right no i was not in the room for any of this so this is new to me as well i can only imagine what it's like beauty stuff um i got a few more minutes with you here i want to do some quick thank yous as a lot of folks have some nice stuff they want to share with you and then i i want to ask you about the reactions outside outside yeah get into that yeah farm girl thank you so much says thank you for joining us cody please take care of yourself and come back soon yes i i will promise you that uh uh slp mama says and thank you cody you've done such an amazing job of covering this case thank you for that appreciate it uh lori lori land says i love this channel cody has been amazingly entertaining natural and factual love it very very nice thank you uh love and lavender butterfly says the knife was already unfolded correct isn't that premeditation what is with carmelo's parents not saying staying to support him during the victim impact statements well last part but what is that was that true that they left during the impact statements that's that's what i've that's what i've [00:26:58] Cody Thomas: heard uh uh or seen reported again you know i i walked out right after the sentencing because i was it was late in the evening and i was getting that call from producers hey where you at so you know all the things about the impact statements i had to get from reporting but that is what i've seen as far as far as the the knife already being unfolded it was never definitively uh stated but the the where the prosecution was going and what the witnesses said that it happened so fast you know it just happened so enlightening speed it was a foldable knife though i mean it was a foldable you would imagine you'd have to unfold it at some point yeah yeah yeah so so if you know know that like i said that that wasn't definitively stated but if that is the case if you unfolded it premeditation for sure but the way they the way you know the implication was that was already unfolded through the witness [00:27:47] Joshua Ritter: testimony and the prosecution's narrative you know it's the thing that keeps on driving me nuts about this i mean there's there's many things that bother me one but the one that keeps on is why didn't he ever just pull it out like he really wanted to be a tough guy and he really wanted to be like see what happens you think pull it out and say here yeah whatever you want to say go ahead and take your best shot kind of a deal but sealing it to that last moment that to me is the part that if i were a juror that that's the part to me that i would go that's not that's murder that's murder that's not yeah that's ambush yeah that's nearly right bush you know what i mean that's like i mean you center mass you know you you threaten or you you dare him to come touch you and then you at the last second stab [00:28:37] Cody Thomas: him with something yeah i mean i agree i mean like you said if you want to be a tough guy no one's gonna fight a guy with a knife then take it i mean 17 year old boys you know they were cussing and hooting and hollering you know what was going on but if that's the case take it out all right now what what you want to do now not condoning that not saying that's the right thing to do but okay maybe somebody would have been suspended or kicked out of the track meet but two kids get to [00:28:58] Joshua Ritter: live and go on another day i i can almost guarantee you had he brought it out none of this would have happened no i don't think austin was looking to dare a guy with a knife i think he was trying to know some guy who was being a being a jerk out of their tent you know awful all right just split second like um tell us about um tell us about the reaction outside because you can you can only imagine but [00:29:24] Cody Thomas: i'm sure people have seen all the videos uh online and stuff by this point and they'll continue to see them but uh polarizing um verbal confrontations out the wazoo lots of lots of profanity being thrown around but i will say uh there was amped up security on uh verdict day there was security you know roaming the parking lot throughout the previous days but you know all the texas rangers and sheriff's deputies were sitting out there with the big gun not just the service weapons but the big ones just just in case but um you know there was there was sadness there was a woman out there with a speaker you know preaching you know you know god's plan you know doing all that kind of stuff of course there were the people on each other's faces uh you know cussing at each other and saying everything under the sun and throwing around like this picture right here i saw this go down i saw that happen that altercation right there that's been blasted all over social media um but all of that to say i'm just thankful that there were no physical altercations that everyone i know they're everyone getting home safely yeah was there any were there any arrests i so late last night because you know my stuff was done nine o'clock so you know other local stations had you know 10 o'clock shows and whatever and i'm on the text thread with all the media and the media liaison um that was you know facilitating everything for us and i did see some text messages in that group chat that there were a couple of arrests i did see that i don't know how many but i did actually see them but i did not witness them with my own eyes but because i mean that was late at night the sun was down at that point so i didn't witness it but i did see them in the text thread that came through later but um from what i saw um i don't know if civil is the right word but it was it was everyone's right to verbalize how they felt you know that's that's one of the that's one of the things we have in this country people can speak their minds and that's what they were doing but i didn't witness any fights i didn't witness anybody getting hurt and from what i understand everyone made it home safe which is you know the blessing here but there were there there were polarizing feelings i'll tell you that because they they weren't they weren't shy letting me know what their feelings were i'll put it that way [00:31:20] Joshua Ritter: yeah yeah well i i it's it sounds like i mean i don't i don't agree with the judge um uh shutting down the cameras but i do agree with the judges taking it very seriously uh the control of the courtroom outside right yeah they had a huge barrier they had a lot of police presence because the last thing you need is for for something like this to turn into something far far worse um and it turned into violence and and whatever else could have happened and and so it's glad to hear that they were able to avoid that cody i can't thank you enough you've been such a a champ and you've been so tireless uh and in working all day long you put up something on instagram where it was like your schedule and it's all day long no you mean you mean this one right here well you can't see because it's [00:32:14] Cody Thomas: all white paper but yeah there's five there's five different things i had to do today here but i well [00:32:19] Joshua Ritter: and i think we're closing out your day right you get to rest after us good the last one yeah go go go have a cocktail and uh and and get some rest um we appreciate you don't tell mama to have a cocktail um thank you again and we're going to bug you again soon so so thank you so much all you want [00:32:39] Cody Thomas: i'll be here and all all everyone that's giving me all the love in the comments i appreciate every single one of you you can find me on instagram cody thomas underscore facebook you know i do my gesture every night my little sitting on the stool you'll see me in my suit so i'm there that's my black butter facebook and instagram can't miss it can't miss it take care my friend you too man i'll [00:32:58] Joshua Ritter: see you soon all right there's all his social media please please support him i mean you know i i uh that's the best we can do is to thank him as much and then support him where we can and we're big fans and so i will i'm just looking for the excuse for the next case to have him on all right let me thank some folks um and then we're going to bring on our best our next guest hold on one quick second actually sorry to do this to to everybody oh what am i doing here give me one quick second all right sorry about that all right uh let me think um gifted courtroom oh let me think proud grizzly so much for the gifted membership appreciate you eroy same thing thank you so much for the gifted memberships that's so kind of you johnny knoxville hope everyone is safe in tornado alley tonight is that a thing that's going on is there a is there storms this evening i hope everybody is safe farm girl thank you so much for the gifted memberships very kind of you heather cooper smith appreciate you as well beth r thank you so much for supporting the mods with coffees mindy same to you appreciate that court dog daniel great that people were able to vent without incident yeah i agree i agree i'm fully in support of people um feeling differently about the outcome of a case than than i do and and let's just do it where everybody can go home safe so that was that is nice i agree with that just jewels thank you so much for the gifted membership texas law cat oh i appreciate that uh thank you for the super sticker mindy lou who what a sad and tragic case thank you cody and josh for being there here to discuss the case well thank you for being here uh to support us all right let's bring on our next guest uh you all know her dr patrice berry how are you doing good to see you [00:35:11] Speaker 3: doing good thank you so much for having me again oh absolutely um from first of all let me tell [00:35:18] Joshua Ritter: everybody if they don't know already uh you have your own youtube channel called psychologists reacts we're going to put the um link up in the chat so do yourselves a favor subscribe right away because you're gonna you're you're not going to regret it um i want to talk to you the the main reason we we asked you to be honest because i want to get into this whole concept of um uh competency and you know your experience with all of that when it comes to the um uh uh de carlos brown arena zarutska case but i know you followed the carmelo anthony um situation we now know you know he's a 17 year old or pardon me 19 year old man he was 17 at the time that this happened um they've got him on uh um protective custody right and i believe too i don't i don't think we've seen reporting but there is this photograph that was released uh this evening him looking very different this is i mean the reports on this or this is his newest kind of intake photograph um his hair has been shaved and he's wearing i don't know if that is a uh uh you know a prevention vest or not it doesn't actually look like one now that i take another look at it but um i mean please i don't want to kind of hold you back here please [00:36:54] Speaker 3: weigh in on your thoughts on all of this so with him being convicted of murder it would be common for him to just to not put him in general population immediately that he and because i think he's going to be held before he's transferred to the actual prison um because he was uh he was out on bail before all of this he might have made the the decision to cut his hair because sometimes if there are issues um sometimes they there might be certain recommendations i because in one of the pictures i think i did see him with some hair and in this one he he doesn't uh there was a case alia bulaban they actually asked for time for someone to meet with him to prepare him for prison and um so sometimes like there are consultants there are people where that is just there they actually do that to help somebody prepare for that for that transition yeah and i mentioned before we all started i used to do intake evaluations for juve for a juvenile facility and individuals and individuals coming in with certain um with certain reports so we would screen for anger issues we'd screen for impulsivity we would screen for thoughts of harm to self we also screened for trauma symptoms as well and the piece of that was just to know if this individual would need more treatment juvenile justice so juvenile detention centers often focus more on treatment i do hope that he accesses programs because he will have he will have different programs that are that are available and um i do hope that he uses this time to really improve himself work on himself look at some some anger management and emotion regulation emotional intelligence i hope that he really takes some time to to look into all that yeah i i mean we didn't [00:38:55] Joshua Ritter: we didn't have the benefit of actually seeing him in court we've i've seen photographs um and we've heard descriptions but to me i don't know if you heard the conversation i was having with cody earlier to me he seems like this is a complete shock to him uh that you know that i i think that listen everybody is shocked in that moment everybody thinks they have a chance but it i i almost get the impression that no one prepared him for the possibility that this could have happened just from the way that [00:39:30] Speaker 3: everybody seems to have reacted to it and going into closing arguments based on what the state presented and what the defense presented i didn't think that there was enough for self-defense because even the defense witnesses indicated that if they were having to identify who who provoked it some of the defense witnesses even said that they would have pointed to carmelo as being the person that was provoking the the situation and i love how you mentioned earlier the force has to match the force so my husband is a big if somebody hits you you get to hit them back for my thing as a as a psychologist and somebody that teaches people how to work on you know skills and regulation i also used to oversee a school-based counseling program because our schools in virginia are zero tolerance so even if someone hits you and you hit them back both people are still often suspended okay the first the person that hit first is often suspended longer but they're zero tolerance for for for physical aggression and and and in our schools and so my thing is self-defense is a defense so if you can walk away please get away safely like that's just that's that's my heart is if you can get away from the situation safely because let's say there's okay i feel like somebody's provoking me i'm feeling threatened i'm gonna go find a coach i'm gonna go find somebody i'm gonna go and get some support and i think his coach would have told him to leave the tent because i think that's what his coach testified to as well hey buddy if they don't want [00:41:09] Joshua Ritter: you there yeah and you know what maybe that coach would have gone to their coach and said why are your guys being jerked to my guy he's just looking for a place that's a dry seat or whatever it was there's we could sit here all night and come up with hundreds of different ways this all could have been avoided you're right um you're right yeah it's it's it's incredibly heartbreaking uh all the way around um but i do think the jury got it right i mean i agree with you i do i everything about this if you were being fair and objective i think you have to agree this was there was not a valid self-defense here and what you're left with is is a murder case um okay thank you for for for for your insights on that but i wanted to talk to you about the um well first of all let me say to court talk daniel josh as carmelo's defense attorney give us your readers digest combo you would have had with him before trial and after you have seen all the evidence um i i mean i i said this before i would have been i would have been hat in hand in that da's office asking for the best possible deal that i can and all the arguments about fear and self-defense and bigger kid and all of this stuff i would have made that to the da and said give me give me something because i know i'm not going to win this in front of 12 people give me something that i can what this man can walk away with his life um but i i i i i don't know if he chose not to or they were just turned down or whatever it was but i i feel like this was not one for trial i don't think the da would have offered less than 20. they they had a very very strong case i i think you might be right but still 20 is better than 35. yeah um okay let's get into uh the arena zarutska de carlos brown case so he was found um just to catch everybody up this is the horrible horrible murder that took place on a charlotte north carolina commuter train back in august of 2025. he's sitting behind her there's the photograph they have zero interaction with each other she's minding her business they don't know each other he stands up produces a knife again and stabs her three times in the neck and she ends up bleeding to death on that train it is a horrific nightmarish tragedy of a story he has now we knew that he had a history of mental illness and he has now been declared incompetent both on the state and federal level and i thought this would be a good opportunity um to to help us understand what that means as far as competency restoring competency because that is something that the uh da brought up today and and how that how they determine that so with competency to stand trial you first have to [00:44:09] Speaker 3: identify does the person have a mental illness or mental defect and after that do they have a factual understanding of the legal system their situation and that um and if they don't have that understanding because of their mental illness then they could be found incompetent to stand trial they did find for mr brown that he cannot make rational case-related decisions because of his mental illness and then lastly he's been struggling to work with his attorneys because of mental illness he has a history of experiencing delusions that center around his belief that he was exposed to material that controls his movement so he believes there's something else that controls his movement and he's made reports to the police asking them to investigate this material so this isn't something that he's making up right after this crime saying i hear voices or something he has a long history of mental illness and it's my understanding that he's been diagnosed with schizophrenia and that a part of his delusion is feeling that someone has full control and access to his body and that they are controlling him they actually included a quote from him [00:45:24] Joshua Ritter: um in their in their their their letter it's weird in federal court they submit these letters but they submitted a letter uh to the to the court supporting that which included a quote from um from brown where he says if you guys can't read it i'll read it to you it says i would like to tell the court i have a body emergency someone has full access to my body and they are controlling me wrongfully and law enforcement refuses to investigate it and it requires for an investigation when describing the technology technology someone was using i was misdiagnosed with schizophrenia now he has i mean part of the reason he was um this case is controversial is he was allowed out on bail where he had already exhibited mental health issues before and those mental health issues had to do with him calling 911 to report this kind of body snatching situation that he's describing so it's not like something he just came up with recently but prosecutors me being a former prosecutor always look at this kind of stuff and go the word malingering starts get thrown about like is this guy just making this up to try to get himself out of trouble tell me what your thoughts are so that's why he's going [00:46:50] Speaker 3: to go to a mental hospital and they are going to put him on medication so i don't think he's been encouraged to take medication they might give him there are certain antipsychotics that are injected on a certain period of time so for some people that struggle with medication compliance sometimes they end up giving them a medication where they don't have to take it every day maybe it's something that's administered once a month or something or within the hospital their court ordered to take their their medication right now he's saying that he's misdiagnosed with schizophrenia and that he's believing his delusion and a delusion is a strongly held false belief and within schizophrenia it's a part of psychosis and so he's actively psychotic and not able to help with his defense right now and really not understanding the court process he's still on this like y'all need to investigate the material once they get him on medication i wonder if things will present different it reminds me of other not guilty by reason of insanity where people they weren't competent to stand trial because that's the incompetency it's just getting him to where he's not actively psychotic and still believing the delusions and he's and he doesn't think like his lawyer is colluding with i don't because sometimes people their delusions go deep where they think this is a big conspiracy some people can have paranoia and so medications can help with that and but and then he'll be able to better um assist his his defense once he's competent and no longer actively psychotic [00:48:32] Joshua Ritter: and i don't know why i'm on this tangent but if if they start to try to treat him and and medicate him are there ways that they can tell let's say he continues to exhibit these thoughts are there ways to to tell if he is making it up you know what i'm saying like i'm watching another case where [00:48:58] Speaker 3: the person is having these outbursts in court so they fired their lawyer and they're representing themselves now and they're having these outbursts and they're telling the job but the judge is watching them and they're acting they're taking notes they're saying i can't do this you know this is a miscarriage of justice i'm writing my senator but the judge is looking and the judge is making a record that they are competent so competency to stand trial is low yeah explain that yeah do you understand who the judge is right do you understand that the lawyer is on your side do you understand what like appropriate behavior if the judge tells you to stop talking the judge has the authority and you have to stop talking because there's some people that have religious delusions and they might be like god told me it's like wait a minute like the judge is over this courtroom you have to listen to to the judge [00:49:52] Joshua Ritter: yeah um yeah it's very low it's it's like a like a third grader kind of understanding of the courtroom like the guy in the in the black robe that's the boss and this is your helper and that [00:50:03] Speaker 3: person's not your helper and kind of that sort of stuff uh it doesn't mean that all of his delusions would completely go away because right now he's not seeing that like this belief he has could be a part of a mental health diagnosis and a part of his defense and instead he's like no let's fix this in me and i don't like i don't i don't think he understands that the legal situation yeah that he's in [00:50:30] Joshua Ritter: yeah it's funny i had a uh the reason i keep on asking about the malingering is i had a case where um the person was in and out of competence he was incompetent and we were having continued check-ins about his competency status and his his case was a murder case that involved him pleading not guilty by reason of insanity so a lot of mental health issues taking place in the case and he were in court one day and he purses out the judge just i'm gonna do this to you and your your wife and blah blah blah blah and this huge outburst and the judge is fine you know handles it well and tells the guy to go out of court uh and then there's a bunch of deputies around him he was in the in the strapped down into a wheelchair and all of that kind of stuff and they start to wheel him out and he turns to one of the deputies and he goes don't worry i'm not a problem i'm just malingering and the deputy told me afterwards so i had the deputy write up a report because i wanted that in the file somewhere and and we brought it before the judge and the judge was like you know yeah that doesn't sound great but i'm not a mental health expert so i'm going to let them know that at least he said that but i mean i i think that could have been part of all of his you know [00:51:48] Speaker 3: delusion as well and so um inpatient so their staff 24 7 and they will be able to observe his behavior they'll be able to see how he responds to medication the the therapy is literally going to be because it might be somebody meeting with him every day just to say who's this who's this what's their role like there is a type of therapy to restore competency along with the medication because he might not be um like he might still have some psychosis but as long as he can meet that minimum threshold he would be able to to proceed and they might order that he stay on medication sometimes i've i've seen that that happen um in cases like this and the and the u.s attorney seems confident of that [00:52:39] Joshua Ritter: as well that he he does not see this as being the end of the case um but i'm gonna let you go because you gave you gave us your your time and i know you've got other things to get to and i and i want to be very respectful of that and i hate to cut this short but thank you so much for joining us this evening we'll have you back again soon i'm sure there's uh dr patrice barry's a youtube channel go subscribe everybody right now uh and there's your website and everything else thank you so much i appreciate it thank you um all right i do want to show you guys this one clip because i kept on referencing this but i i wanted to get uh the good doctor um she had some things she had to get to this is from um uh u.s attorney uh russ ferguson he is the one who's in charge of the prosecution here um and i really uh i really appreciated the way that he talked about this because i think this is the way a prosecutor should treat this it's not all you know it's it's not all hard charging all the time there should be a measure of balance and and he explains it really well here in this clip [00:53:51] Speaker 4: in this process we have to make sure that we have a case that is airtight on appeal airtight on post conviction litigation we have to make sure the defendant has all the due process that the constitution affords him the doctor that examined him for the competency hearing today found that his prognosis for restoration is very good and so i rely on the doctors here and i think that the prognosis is good and we will see him stand trial under the law he has to be able to understand the proceedings against him and be able to assist in his defense and i think you saw [00:54:17] Joshua Ritter: from his actions today he's not quite there yet i love that i love that this isn't he's not going to sit there and go the doctors got it wrong and this is a justice can't wait and this is a miscarriage and blah blah blah no listen we want to make sure we do this right we want to avoid appeal we want to avoid post-conviction issues we we we're setting about to do a very serious thing here this is a murder case it's important they they're talking about pursuing the death penalty so they certainly want to make sure they're doing everything properly and his constitutional rights are being protected and you know hopefully they can restore competency and we can get this this trial back on track i just thought that was such a nice balanced presentation from the u.s attorney that i i wanted to make sure to highlight all right should we get to some quick announcements and get you all out of here and on with the rest of your your hump day wednesday yes is the answer to that uh first let me thank nana of four thank you so much uh for the um super chat to the mods there the crafty rn says show the love for josh tiff kaylin and guest thank you so much appreciate your support court dog daniel thank you for supporting the mods with coffees but why thank you for supporting the mods with coffees um heather cooper smith thank you so much for the super sticker shannon rv my brother was unalived by knife let me tell you the pain it caused my family was unbearable it ripped my whole family apart i i'm my heart breaks for you thank you for sharing that with us um yeah i mean you know it's a it's a it's at the the the devastation to the metcalf family will never never be repaired um and yes thank you guys all so much for all your support so that we can continue to make these ad 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in that case uh but please check out that episode a lot of you enjoyed that if you want kind of the latest if you're trying to catch up on the latest on the carmelo anthony case then stay tuned here's what's going on what is today wednesday tomorrow is tea time with tiff this is the hottest new show on youtube but it is only available to members of courtroom confidential it is the members only tea time with tiff every thursday this will be at 6 p.m why so late you got things to do lady 6 p.m pacific 9 p.m eastern keeping everybody up late uh tomorrow friday um the weekly rap sheet is a show that i co-host alongside donna rotuno and the kids out of school oh yeah that's why i am away that's why i'm oh i'm escaped to a hotel room uh paul morrow and donna rotuno we're doing the weekly rap sheet this week um we would love for you to join us at noon pacific 3 p.m eastern this friday we're going to be talking about carmelo anthony obviously the latest in the anna kepner case the latest on 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lewis laurie smith hi camp gen becky damino survivor c janet cameron harper harper harper pearls tippy toes to t kit eventually i just my brain just falls off tiki sow tiki zou uh christy babs and lm 55a you guys are all fantastic thank you so much for being a part of our membership big shout out and thank you to cody thomas round of applause for cody right thank him so much for coming back night after night that guy's working so hard and then he still carves out a little bit of time to come on courtroom confidential i really appreciate that and he and he's just fantastic so we'll have him back again soon and big super shout out to dr patrice berry i appreciate her so much i know how busy she is uh with everything she's got going on and i love getting her insights i mean she's got a wealth of knowledge um when it comes to some of these issues court dog dano says i have my ticket and hotel already let's go you're ahead of us don't we we're still looking for hotel rooms we might be doing an airbnb i don't know we might be camping out in the i think we could camp out in the exhibition hall and nobody would know if we just like camped out under the table nobody would know um so that big thanks to dr patrice berry huge thank you to the best um mod squad on youtube afton shy gal kathy therapist you know and best nancy kailyn love you kailyn thank you so much for making everything run so smoothly um and don't don't i noticed everything you did tonight and it was spot on so thank you kailyn and tiffany you are as always the best thing that ever happened to me take care everybody we will see you back here on saturday [01:06:02] Speaker ?: we will see you back here on saturday