Lena Dunham on her new memoir, “Famesick”

[0:00] Hi, everyone. It's Amna. Welcome to the next episode of Settle In. Today, we are talking [0:04] to the prolific creator, Lena Dunham. She has a new book out. It's called Fame Sick. It chronicles [0:11] the rise of her HBO show Girls, but also the many, many struggles she was dealing with personally [0:17] in her health and in her family, all at that same time. And we talk about it all. We talk about what [0:22] it was like to become super famous, about the online attacks at the time, about addiction and [0:27] sobriety and illness and love and where she is today and what she wants next out of life. [0:33] So settle in and enjoy my conversation with Lena Dunham. Lena Dunham, welcome to Settle In. Thanks [0:41] so much for joining us. It's an absolute pleasure. I'm an enthusiastic PBS viewer. Those tote bags [0:48] really got me through my school years, and I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you for that. We'll [0:53] have to send you an updated tote bag. Listen, I think it's fair to say anyone who knows you [0:59] in your work will say you have never been one to hold back, right? You are very comfortable [1:05] sharing parts of your life. It's part of what people adore about your work and about you. [1:11] But this memoir, this is intensely personal, right? It's about your family and your sex life [1:18] and your traumas, your addiction, your illness. And I wonder now that it is out there in the [1:23] world for all to read. What has that been like for you? [1:28] So I started the book in 2018. I was newly sober. I had just gotten out of rehab. And I was really [1:34] trying to figure out how to make sense of some of the experiences I'd had sort of in the first [1:39] decade, almost decade of my career. And now it's 2026. Hard to believe that pandemic did a number on us. [1:48] And at this point, I just celebrated eight years of sobriety last week. And it's been a really [1:55] amazing opportunity to be very intentional about what's in the book. I think when I was younger, [2:00] I was a little bit more, I don't want to use the word careless, but perhaps naive just about what it [2:08] was like to make really personal work, put it out in the world fairly quickly, and then process that [2:13] in real time. And so the chance to really sit with this over an extended period of time and make [2:18] decisions about sort of what experiences, not just that I wanted to discuss, but I thought might [2:23] actually be useful to the reader. That was a really important part of the process. And I worked really [2:29] closely with my editor, Andy Ward. And so it's a really lovely feeling to put something in the world [2:34] that I know is packed full of things that many people would still consider contain the signature [2:40] overshare, but have been done with a certain amount of intention and hopefully integrity. [2:46] I mean, what you do so beautifully and compellingly in the book is very candidly, very honestly, [2:54] very painfully in some ways, chronicling both your rise to fame with the success of this show, [3:00] Girls on HBO, and your simultaneous battles with chronic pain and illness. And there's this moment [3:06] really early in the book, when you tell a story about your dad, and you're talking to him, and you [3:12] say, you're going to be playing the lead role in the show, you're going to be playing Hannah. And he asks [3:17] you if you have fully considered the effect that it would have on your life. And I just wonder how you [3:23] look back on that question now. [3:25] Well, I love that you caught that. I think it's a very classic parent-child dynamic for a parent to have, [3:32] you know, I always joke that he's like Cassandra, like he can see the future, but he can't do anything [3:35] about it. And when you have a 23-year-old child, a willful 23-year-old daughter, they are too young [3:44] to know how young they are. And so everything my father said, I thought like, this old fuddy-duddy, [3:49] he's never even picked up Instagram. He doesn't know what's going on. And I moved forward with this [3:55] kind of abandon. And of course, I look back now and go, my father had a complete understanding [4:00] because he was an adult and I wasn't of, and also because he's an artist and he knows what [4:06] it's like to have his work consumed. And he, he and my mother had a pretty complete understanding [4:11] of what this might look like. And they also knew that they, this is what I love to do. And so they [4:16] had to let me take the ride. And I know I tried to really touch on the idea in the book that I know [4:21] that that was very painful for them, but I also feel a lot of gratitude that they kind of let me [4:29] fly. I mean, the show, as we all know, went on to be an absolute cultural juggernaut, right? And [4:35] you're one of the stars, but you're also, you are the force behind the show. You are writing it, [4:40] you are co-running it, you're the face of it. And you talk about how obviously exciting and how [4:45] exhilarating all of that was, but also how isolating it could be at times. Were there trade-offs [4:52] that you, you maybe didn't realize you were going to have to make as your star was ascending? [4:57] No, I think something that's very interesting about show running is it's a really creative job. [5:02] And it's also a little bit like running a company. Like you are worrying about, uh, like, [5:09] you know, you're worrying about a workplace and making sure that it's a positive place to work. [5:14] You're dealing with individual dynamics. Um, most of us were very young. I love the cast and I feel [5:20] very, very, very grateful for them. And I also recognize now just how young we were. [5:26] And so it was a little bit like someone I had gone from making independent films, really actually in [5:32] my living room, starring my family to suddenly sort of being in charge of a business, like being a sort [5:39] of CEO without having been given any of those like nifty online training courses. And so suddenly I [5:47] remember this feeling of going from sort of young carefree woman who's thinking like, what party [5:52] are we going to go to on Friday? And am I going to get fired from my job at the baby clothes store [5:57] for being 10 minutes late every day? And then suddenly I was looking around going, is there ever [6:04] going to be a moment when there isn't something that needs doing urgently? And I think that whiplash [6:11] going so quickly from one reality to the other. And there really is no training for the job of [6:17] show running besides doing it. But so some people, you know, this is the reason that people assist and [6:23] they mentor and they learn. And I hadn't had any of those experiences. And so I look back and think [6:30] it's sort of a wonder that everything, I mean, I had great help. Jenny and Connor was there, [6:35] Judd Apatow. Like there were, there were adults in the room, but it's, it's a wonder that we made [6:41] it for six years. And I'm very proud of that. In terms of trade-offs, I think that there were [6:47] moments like, and this is, I feel extremely grateful for my job and I'm certainly not throwing a pity [6:53] party for myself about what happened. But at the same time, I was looking around at my friends' lives [7:01] who were still maybe having the chance to figure things out in a more private way, to have more [7:09] spontaneous experiences, to travel, to sort of live a more quintessentially 20-something life. [7:18] And I was recreating a 20-something life on screen, but I was basically never not at work. [7:24] You're also not getting to live your 20s and make the mistakes of your 20s that all of us make [7:30] in the privacy of your own life, right? It's a very public experience and a highly scrutinized [7:36] experience. And all of this, we should remind people, it's all unfolding at a time when blogging [7:42] is taking off and social media is taking off and everyone on the internet has a hot take and an [7:47] opinion that they really want to share in that moment. And you were the brunt, you bore the brunt of [7:53] a lot of that, right? A lot of it was focused at you in a really intensely, a lot of times unkind [7:59] personal way. I wonder how you dealt with that at the time, how you navigated that on top of [8:05] managing the responsibility of a successful show and running a team and trying to be creative in [8:10] the moment. [8:12] Well, I think, firstly, I'm going to hook onto two things you said. One is, I think, [8:16] talking about the fact that this was the rise of blogging. I mean, I've said, [8:19] I remember joining Twitter the year that girls started. I remember posting my first Instagram [8:26] photo. This was sort of the wild, wild west. And now we're sort of, we've become used to, [8:33] you know, I don't know if the Grammys happen and then everybody gets on with like 57 opinions about [8:38] Sabrina Carpenter's shorts. And we are used to that cycle, but it was new. And people were trying [8:47] to figure out what it was and what it meant. And we happened to be in New York at a moment when New [8:54] York media was really the center of that. And we were sort of adjacent to the people who were [8:59] writing, but just far enough away that they could be pretty hypercritical, but just close enough that [9:05] it could sort of feel a little like eating your own. And it was looking back, it's a kind of a [9:11] fascinating cultural moment. It's a fascinating study in, in so much about creativity, human behavior, [9:19] you know, how we adapt to new technologies. I wouldn't say in the moment, it felt like an [9:25] incredible cultural study in the moment. It felt like I was just fighting to survive truly. And, [9:30] and in terms of how I dealt with it, I loved what you said about holding onto your creativity. That [9:36] was always the most important thing to me, which is what do I have to do to be able to continue to do [9:40] this thing that got me here, which is right and direct and make this work. And I think in terms of [9:46] how I dealt with it is that I didn't deal with it. And, and that was part of what was so, I think, [9:52] I think unmanaged trauma, unhandled stress, we know is, you know, a deep sort of, it's like pouring [10:01] an accelerant on, on illness. And so these things that I had always dealt with, I'd always sort of [10:07] been like a sickly kid or someone who, you know, had my, who had my rough moments, but suddenly [10:15] that was neck and neck with, um, the rest of my life as the most kind of, um, the loudest theme. [10:25] I wonder what all of that means for your relationship with social media today. How would you describe [10:30] that? How would I describe my relationship with social media? I'm really lucky because I have some [10:35] people, um, you know, I have a production company and, um, the, the, the young folks who work for me [10:42] are very online. So they let me know if there's things that I have to know about or things that [10:45] are special or amusing or really good memes, um, scandalous TikToks that one must see. Um, at the [10:53] same time, I, I really treat it more like a part of my job. I have a social media manager. Um, I have a [10:59] creative director and those are people that I sort of engage with in terms of like, what is an [11:06] interesting and new way for us to use social media, but I'm not actually on the apps dealing every day [11:13] with, um, people's perceptions, which I recognize was like a pretty unhealthy cycle for me. And I'd, [11:20] and I'd argue a pretty unhealthy cycle for anyone. And I look at, at what it means to be a young [11:27] celebrity today, which is, you don't just have to be an actor or a singer, or, you know, you also have [11:33] to be a content creator. And that means engaging with all of these voices. And I do think we'll find [11:40] sort of the same way that we're learning how be spending so much time on a screen is affecting the [11:46] human brain. We're going to learn what this is doing, but it's going to take a little bit of time. [11:51] And I think about it the way we think about the fact that like, we didn't know in the 1940s that [11:57] smoking was bad for you. And so for a while, you just get to smoke cigarettes with impunity until [12:04] one day we discover the truth. And I think we will learn the same thing about social media. [12:08] And it's certainly not going away, but learning how to mediate it in our lives so that we can actually [12:14] engage with what's in front of us. Whenever I talk about this, I feel like I sound like I'm, [12:20] I sound like my father talking to me when I was 23, but I'm going to be 40 in a month and we all [12:25] get here. It happens fast, doesn't it, Lena? It happens fast. It's wild. I suddenly hear myself [12:32] saying things where I just go, oh my gosh, like I sound like when my mom and her friends would say [12:37] like, but what is it you like so much about the Backstreet Boys? Like I'm so mortified. [12:43] You know, the other thing you are, you're so open and honest about is, is your very real health [12:51] struggles that it seems like in hindsight, you have a much clearer view of. But at the time, [12:56] of course, you're caught up in the rise of girls and the work that you need to do. But you note how [13:01] in the earliest days of the show, your body was sending you signals that it was not okay. And you [13:06] had repeated emergencies and surgeries and pain and you pushed through because this was your chance [13:12] to create the work that you so badly wanted to. How do you look at the balance, if there's even a [13:18] balance between those two of working towards the things that you'd wanted for so long and so badly, [13:22] but it coming at the cost of your own health? You know, I think that ambition is a very heady thing. [13:31] And even if I didn't have an ambition to be a celebrity, I certainly had an ambition to be someone [13:36] who made a lot of work and, and, you know, continue to work prolifically. And I also put a lot of stock [13:44] in being somebody who could keep on keeping on to me, like the highest. And I think many people, [13:50] many women feel this way, which is that, um, that the kind of like highest good is to push through [13:56] their own needs over everything. And that has, that does have a cost. And so, of course, looking back, [14:05] do I wish that I could have created a healthier balance and perhaps saved myself some of these [14:12] traumatic experiences? Yes. Do I wish that I could have found doctors who could have, um, given me a [14:20] clearer picture of my health issues because there is one. And I spent such a long time feeling [14:26] hysterical. I certainly do. But I also look back and recognize that there was not a, there was not a [14:34] health conversation. There was not a robust women's health conversation for me to join. And there also, [14:42] I didn't know that it was okay to say no, I didn't know it was okay to say, I need a minute. And I [14:49] thought that if I kind of stopped the treadmill, I would be thrown off. And now when I work with [14:56] younger actors, which I'm lucky enough to do often as a director, and it's always inspiring. One of the [15:01] first things I tell them is like, this job is amazing. And do not ever sacrifice yourself for it, [15:08] because hopefully you will be you for much longer than this show is on the air. You will be you for [15:15] as long as you're alive. And this is the one body that we get to have on this go round. And I look [15:24] back and I do wish that I had treated it with a little bit more kindness, but I'm catching up now. [15:30] That women's health conversation you mentioned, even today, there are a lot of things you unpack [15:36] in great detail that a lot of women can relate to, but don't really feel comfortable talking about [15:42] endometriosis, for example, your decision to very courageously have a full hysterectomy at the age of [15:49] 31. These are things women talk about privately all the time or consult with, you know, their best [15:54] friends, but we don't speak openly about. Why was it so important for you to talk about it in the way [16:00] that you do in this book? [16:03] You know, it's interesting, when I first started talking about my endometriosis publicly, I think my family [16:08] still felt a little bit, they had their hackles up, why isn't this private? This is something that we're [16:15] dealing with as a family. This is painful. Why does this have to be anybody's business? And I completely [16:20] understand that. And then one day, I came out of a doctor's appointment with my mother. And [16:25] a girl was crying in the street by herself. And she looked over and we locked eyes. And she was [16:31] like, it's you. And she came over to me and she said, I was just upstairs. And they told me that [16:36] there is nothing that they can do. Besides take my uterus. We've tried everything. And I just feel [16:43] so afraid. And we started to have this conversation because she knew that I was a safe place to do that. [16:50] And my mother sort of looked at me and she was like, okay, I think I get it now, which is that [16:54] it has created. I don't think of it as a gift I'm giving other people. It is a gift that has been [17:00] given to me, which is that I was so alone in this. When I was first diagnosed with endometriosis, [17:06] I could barely say the word. It was not, even though one in 10 women deal with this condition. [17:12] I mean, it was only two months ago that one very courageous 25 year old woman sued the department [17:19] of health and was able to list endometriosis as a disability because she was fired from her job for [17:25] having to miss multiple days of work around her period. I mean, this is a continuing issue. [17:30] And I talking about my experience, other people piped up in a way that actually saved me. And when [17:38] I talk about the dark side of the internet, that's there, but there's also the really beautiful part. [17:43] We're able to connect with other people, normalize your experiences. And for me, this book is just an [17:49] expansion of that conversation. And I hope that it becomes a time capsule really quickly. And that [17:55] this is no longer how women, I mean, the statistics about women and the delay to diagnosis, [18:03] the statistics are much worse for women of color. Those same statistics exist in, you know, birthing [18:09] hospitals all around the country. And so these are issues. I'm certainly not a politician. And, um, [18:16] I think my, I think, uh, and I think my campaigning days are behind me. That being said, [18:22] this is an issue that's really important to me on a lot of levels. [18:25] You talk about your chronic illness and wrestling with that in the book about your fame and wrestling [18:31] with that. You also speak very openly about your struggles with addiction, which culminate in you [18:38] going to rehab after years of taking anti-anxiety medication and pain medication. And, and I should [18:44] say in a very delayed way, congratulations on eight years being sober. That is no small thing. [18:52] How has sobriety changed your relationship, not just with yourself, but with your work, [18:59] which you're still very actively engaged in? [19:01] I think that, um, something that was interesting was that when I was dealing with my health issues [19:08] in the earliest years, it was really, really important to me to sort of distinguish. [19:14] This is real. This is in my body. This is not a mental problem because I felt like [19:18] the first thing that a doctor asks you when you go in and you complain about diffuse pain, [19:23] you complain about feeling anxious as a result of said pain is you start to get questions about your [19:30] personal life. You start to be asked whether you're experiencing depression or anxiety. And the answer I [19:35] wanted to give was always, well, now I am. And because of this conversation, I certainly am. [19:41] And, and so I also spent a long time kind of keeping the idea of addiction and illness separate, [19:50] but addiction, illness, and trauma all feed each other in ways that we're, we understand so much about [19:57] how humans work. And yet there's still so much about that kind of trio and how they each kind of light the [20:04] other on fire that we still don't fully grok. And so something that's been really amazing [20:12] in sobriety has been able to look and go, okay, I've just had this experience. How does that make [20:17] my body feel? What are the situations in which I can feel the healthiest and strongest? What, [20:22] how can I create a workplace that doesn't just let me do my best work, but let's everybody do their [20:28] best work and feel safe to tap out if they need to feel safe to actually ask for what they need, [20:35] because we are so lucky in the film industry and to be basically playing make-believe as adults. [20:42] And often it's treated as this very militaristic male kind of a set is like, it is being run on a [20:49] clock. It can be a little dictatorial. And I really try to relax all of that. And I think all of that [20:55] perspective just came from unclouding my mind and also the work that you do in sobriety looking back [21:01] to understand where you are. And that's also the work of a memoirist. So they go together really [21:06] beautifully. So in the looking back to understand, I'm curious about this because you're, you, you do [21:13] what is very difficult for a lot of people, which is look back at past relationships in a very self-aware, [21:19] very honest way. Relationships that in your own descriptions were not necessarily very healthy. [21:26] And you, you talk about not just those relationships, but some related traumas, your own [21:32] assaults in the past when you were a child and later in life. And I wonder as someone who is where you are [21:39] now in your life and in your body and in your marriage now, right? Of four years, five years, [21:47] how do you look back at those relationships? I think something that was really important [21:52] to me in the book was to look at my own part in the kind of, in the way that those relationships [21:59] frayed, because I know that I was not self-aware enough and I was not healthy enough to be able to [22:06] express my needs or to be able to really hear anybody else's. And so there may have been a lot [22:12] of love, but perhaps there wasn't enough understanding. And so I, part of the reason I [22:19] took so long is because I wanted to make sure that all of these relationships, I can never convey [22:24] everything that they were to me and in some ways are to me, but I can try to convey the kind of [22:32] two-sidedness of these dynamics and to reflect on my own role in them, which only makes you [22:38] a better spouse, a better, you know, parent, if I'm lucky enough to get to do that job. [22:43] And looking, one of the things that's great about sobriety is that you're encouraged to really look [22:48] back in a pretty unflinching way at your own life and to kind of not live in a state of denial. And so [22:56] I feel extremely lucky that I've had that chance. And I hope that, you know, I hope when people read [23:05] it, that what their takeaway is, is not just the kind of challenges of these relationships, but also [23:10] how much love there was in them, because I was lucky enough to experience a lot of love in my twenties, [23:18] even if it didn't always end up the way I had hoped. [23:21] Would you like to be a parent? Is that something you want out of life? [23:25] I would love to be a parent. You know, I think the book makes, I talk about my [23:29] journey to trying to do that biologically. That's not necessarily, well, that is certainly not in the [23:35] cards. I've made it pretty clear in the book that it's not in the cards, but it's a job that I've [23:40] always wanted. And I feel lucky that I didn't, I actually feel lucky that I didn't get the chance [23:46] to do it earlier in life because I am certainly more equipped now than I was then. But for now, [23:52] I'm the parent to many pigs, multiple rabbits, five cats, two dogs. I would list all their names, [24:00] but it would overwhelm you. But trust, they're all named for glamorous 1940s movie stars and they are [24:06] beautiful children. [24:08] I would expect nothing less from you. Lina Dunham, thank you so much for making the time to speak [24:14] with us. Your new book is out now called Fame Sick. It's been such a pleasure and the tote bag is on its way. [24:19] Oh, thank you so much. I did it all for the tote bag, Amna. Thank you. It was a pleasure.