Jon Meacham’s warning to those in power

[0:00] Hi everyone, it's Amna Nawaz. Welcome to another episode of Settle In. Today we're talking to [0:05] Pulitzer Prize winning presidential historian and best-selling author John Meacham. He has a [0:11] fabulous new book out called American Struggle, which looks back at historical texts and speeches [0:16] to tell us more about who we are today. But we had a fascinating conversation. We got a little [0:21] deep sometimes too. He reflected back on how he thinks today about the presidency of Joe Biden [0:28] and what his impact and legacy could be. He also shares the one piece of historical text that he [0:34] thinks every single American should read. You're going to want to check this out. And he also [0:38] talked about why he's still hopeful today and where he finds hope as America marks 250 years. [0:45] So Settle In and enjoy my conversation with John Meacham. Before we talk about history, [0:56] before we talk about your books, before we talk about how we got here, I want to talk about where [1:02] we are today. And I want to talk about how we got here. And I want to talk about where we are today. [1:02] I want to talk about where we are right now at this moment as a nation, because as you and I have [1:06] spoken, as we say a lot, even at PBS News and NewsHour, we talk about unprecedented times, [1:12] these moments of great division, about uncertainty and fear in our culture right now. But you are [1:19] immersed in this. So what words do you use to describe where we are right now as a nation? [1:25] How would you describe it? It's a vital turning point between a constitutional, [1:32] one road is a constitutional order that may not give us everything we want, but preserves [1:39] an ethos in which we can see each other, not as enemies, but as rivals and opponents. [1:49] And the fact that you want to rival an opponent instead of an enemy is an important difference. [1:54] Um, I worry that we are almost too far turned toward the enemy, at least, [2:05] uh, the politically engaged are. Uh, one important point here is a majority of the country [2:12] isn't as wrapped up in this as we are. Uh, and I don't mean that just in terms of following it [2:21] obsessively. They're not actually engaged in politics as total war, which so many people [2:29] are, but a dispositive number of American voters are. And so the, the trick here, uh, the, the [2:36] choice between that road of, [2:38] a total war or a constitutional ethos, which I think is where we are right now, [2:43] the fate of that decision, the fate of that turn may well depend on people who are not as [2:52] invested in the struggles of the day, but who tune in, recognize the significance of the struggle [3:05] and say, you know what, we don't have enough confidence in any one person, any one party, [3:13] in any one interest to run everything absolutely. And we want a democracy. We want checks and [3:21] balances so that we have the capacity to amend, the capacity to compromise, not simply for the [3:30] virtue of compromising, but most of human history tells us that if you and I, [3:35] recognize each other's inherent dignity and the validity of each other's views, [3:43] we are a lot more likely to stay within a covenant, within a civil society, and actually [3:50] create that more perfect union. If we only see each other as enemies who have to be destroyed, [3:58] then the point of the constitution is undercut. It's interesting though, it sounds like you're [4:04] saying the future. [4:06] Or health of our democracy could rest much more on people who are not the most politically engaged, [4:13] the ones who have not been more rapidly paying attention. [4:16] Really? Which would you put at the majority? [4:19] I do, because everybody who's politically engaged, let me put it this way, everyone who's [4:22] politically engaged knows what they think, right? There are not a lot of, hmm, maybe President Trump [4:30] is, we should give him all the power. You know, there aren't many people, or on the other side, [4:37] there aren't many people in MAGA land saying, yeah, you know what, having a democratic president [4:43] for four to eight years would be good for purposes of balance. You know, that's not a sentence you [4:48] hear much, right? But so therefore, what we have to, I think, the stories we have to tell, [4:57] the point of talking about history, the point of talking about the lessons of the past, [5:02] which may feel remote, but in fact is not, [5:08] get people to observe the urgencies and the complexities of the present and render a [5:16] decision. And the politically engaged have rendered their decision, right? There's not a lot of, [5:24] on the one hand, on the other hand. And so, and there are a lot of people who are in that [5:30] potential cohort who can make a difference. And so those are the people I think we should be [5:37] talking to. [5:38] Can I ask you, [5:39] as we sit and talk here, did you, did you foresee another war on the horizon? Did you see the U.S. [5:46] starting this war in Iran? You did not. [5:49] No, no. And if only because, not because I thought there was an inherent virtue [5:57] in the executive branch, but I didn't, it felt to me as though the isolationist impulse [6:05] was the non-interventionist impulse, to give them credit, [6:09] that was so strongly embedded in the base of support that propelled the president to power [6:20] twice. I thought that was a controlling interest. And it turns out that, as he said to the New York [6:29] Times a month or so ago, really the only thing that's really important in determining the broad [6:38] direction of the United States is the United States. And I think that's the only thing that's [6:40] really important to the United States of America at this hour is what goes on in Donald Trump's head. [6:46] Now, pause for a second and think about that. [6:47] What a sentence, by the way. [6:49] But it's true, right? I mean, the point of the Constitution, as conceived, was not to have a [6:57] king. Because the founders, let's really dork out here. The founders did not act in a vacuum, [7:06] right? They were in the late 18th century, and they were not somehow lifted out of history. [7:12] history to create this country out of nothing. They were Englishmen. They were intimately [7:20] familiar with the history of what was the old world in the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries. [7:31] And what had that world been shaped by? Autocracies, wars of monarchies, wars of [7:38] religion, wars of conquest that used religion. And so the point of, in many ways, of the late [7:46] 18th century, of that political revolution that the American experiment really embodies, was [7:53] let's take the affairs of nations away from the whims of a single person. And let's at least try [8:04] to entrust them to the clash of interest. [8:10] Of the many. That was the point. And for all sorts of reasons, as we can discuss, [8:17] you know, beginning with Jefferson buying Louisiana, running all the way through the [8:22] splitting of the atom, the executive branch of the United States has grown, [8:29] inexorably is a tough word, but I think that's the right word, has steadily grown. Let's say [8:36] steadily. Has steadily grown to the point where, because of the way powers have [8:43] developed, and because of the habits, the extra constitutional habits, the, you know, people say [8:50] they don't like norms or the norms seem sort of boring. But in point of fact, what President [8:57] Trump's doing in Iran, interestingly, is drawing on a set of norms that aren't quite explicitly [9:05] spelled out, but have developed as part of our custom, that presidents can exert force in this [9:12] way. [9:13] We haven't declared war since the Second World War. [9:16] You mean formally, officially through Congress. We haven't done that. [9:19] Formally. [9:19] We've authorized use of force in a number of nations. Yeah. [9:21] Yeah, we have. But, you know, if you are, if you were a young American in Korea or Vietnam [9:30] or the Persian Gulf or Iraq or Afghanistan, the distinction between an authorization of [9:37] force and a war probably didn't make much difference to you. [9:40] Well, let me ask you this, because a lot of the, [9:44] folks who read The Soul of America a few years ago walked away, myself included, feeling pretty [9:51] good about who we are as a country, I think, because you went through all these critical [9:55] moments in American history and really pointed out how, as Americans, we have tended to choose [10:03] our better angels over the worst impulses as the arc of American history unfolds. And as we sit [10:10] here now and everyone's trying to figure out what the heck happens next, I have to say, [10:15] in speaking with you and in hearing you talk about the state of our democracy and what's at stake or [10:19] how it changes or how it doesn't, you sound a little bit more pessimistic than you did back [10:24] then. Is that fair? [10:25] I think it is. I think there's a difference between optimism and hope, right? Hope is [10:32] the opposite of fear. I am still full of hope that we can construct a present and a future [10:41] commensurate with the aspirations of the Declaration of Independence. [10:46] And the country that abolished slavery and preserved the Union and extended suffrage and [10:53] did away with Jim Crow. But the same country that did away with Jim Crow created Jim Crow, [10:59] right? The same country that extended suffrage denied suffrage. The same country that abolished [11:04] slavery protected slavery. So it's never fully light versus dark. I thought after Charlottesville, [11:15] after the, [11:17] both the tone and the chaos of the first Trump term, I thought the country would say, [11:27] you know what? We wanted to send a message to the establishment, the world as it's taken shape [11:35] since, really since the mid-1960s, has not been commensurate with our cares and concerns. [11:44] So get it together. I thought that message had been sent [11:49] and that, [11:50] and that password would be sent by a lot of people in those times. [11:53] What I realized then was that people having sent it would realize that the messenger was now [11:59] actually causing more harm than good. And in 2020, that was proven right. So in 2020, I thought, [12:06] okay, my argument was correct. You know, President Biden has been elected. There's a certain return of [12:16] gravity. I mean that both in the physical sense, but also in the metaphorical sense, there, we were serious, again. [12:21] As ever, history confounds us. [12:23] Human nature confounds us because in the midst of that return of gravity was the introduction [12:30] to shift metaphors of a particularly devastating virus into the body politic, which is the [12:37] denial of full, free and fair elections if you don't like the result. [12:42] And so the undermining of trust in the ways in which the will of the people is expressed [12:51] was something I didn't foresee. [12:54] And the durability of that lie and what it enabled the president, former president and [13:02] current president to do, which was to keep that 30, 35% of the country that would follow [13:11] him anywhere, he kept them fully engaged. [13:16] And then the other 14.9% or so for various circumstances, including mistakes made by [13:23] the Democratic Party. [13:23] And mistakes made by the then incumbent president, let's be honest, managed to create, again, [13:33] a dispositive number of folks who wanted to send a message again. [13:39] And so in that sense, was I surprised? [13:43] Yes, I was. [13:47] The argument in The Soul of America and the argument of this current book is not that [13:54] there's ever a final victory. [13:57] It's that there can be provisional hours of hope, of constructive public action, of a [14:09] moral application of our conviction that the Declaration of Independence should, in fact, [14:19] continue to be our North Star. [14:23] And that manifests itself in an infinity of ways. [14:27] The deaths of the two people in Minneapolis. [14:31] Yeah. [14:34] That was a projection of force domestically for largely performative political reasons, [14:50] and it has real world consequences. [14:54] And what I say to my Republican friends, and I live in Tennessee, so that's redundant, [15:00] is and this sounds facile. [15:05] I don't mean it to. [15:06] But I think it makes sense. [15:08] Yeah. [15:09] I think it makes the point, you know, the old line about, you know, in school, you know, [15:14] when people are having food fights or paper fights or whatever, and the teacher says, [15:20] you know, it's always good until it's all it's all fun until somebody gets an eye put [15:27] out. [15:28] Yeah. [15:29] Right. [15:30] I mean, that that's a classroom thing. [15:31] The politics of Trumpism is let's be honest, it's entertaining. [15:38] I don't think there's any. [15:39] I don't think there should be any. [15:40] I don't think there should be any doubt about that. [15:43] It's it's enveloping. [15:46] His supporters see every day as a struggle against an enemy. [15:52] It elevates it, infuses daily life with the highest of stakes. [15:59] Richard Hofstadter wrote about this and the paranoid style in American politics that if [16:05] every day is an existential struggle, then you politically you remain. [16:11] Almost hyperactive. [16:13] Right. [16:14] You're just constantly in a state of struggle, a state of war, right? [16:18] There's always a mission, right? [16:21] There's you're right. [16:22] And someone's always coming after you. [16:25] Right. [16:26] And I just think that the point of the country and I tried to make this point in the soul [16:31] book and in this book, the country at its best is one in which, as Alexander Hamilton [16:39] said, we enable reason and deliberation to take a stand. [16:46] And perhaps prevail against force and accident. [16:50] Right. [16:51] Hamilton said that was what the Constitution was about, was about. [16:54] Could we prove that a group of human beings could take a step back, could observe human [17:04] nature for what it is, could construct a government to take account of our appetites and our ambitions [17:10] to try to channel our aspirations and do so with the power of reason and deliberation, [17:18] as opposed to force. [17:20] Right. [17:21] Which is the default position. [17:22] Right. [17:23] Or accident, which is someone happens to win a battle and therefore they're king. [17:32] Just because someone wins an election does not make them king. [17:36] Right. [17:37] That that's not what the American system is supposed to be. [17:41] And I think that's the story that has to be told. [17:44] Can I back it up a little bit? [17:46] Because before we talk about some of the implications of what we're seeing now from this Trump administration, [17:54] you. [17:55] Right. [17:56] You mentioned feeling like, OK, we've reached gravity again. [17:58] There's some gravity here when President Biden won the election and then being surprised when [18:03] President Trump won reelection. [18:06] And I wanted to ask you, because I'm not sure I've heard you talk about this in this way, [18:10] but it's worth noting you're close to President Biden. [18:13] You've called him a friend. [18:14] You've called him an American hero. [18:15] You've advised him on his speeches, understanding there were a lot of other forces at play. [18:21] The pandemic, as you mentioned, and a lot of other things happening in the country bubbling up. [18:24] Right. [18:25] For a generation, at least. [18:27] How do you look back now on what President Biden as a leader and his administration did [18:33] or didn't do that also helped to get us where we are today and not just the decision to [18:38] run again? [18:39] Right. [18:40] Which has been called into question and examined a dozen different ways, but also maybe not [18:44] going after some of the officials from the first Trump administration the way some Democrats [18:48] wanted them to. [18:49] How do you look at that now? [18:52] So the first answer before I blather. [18:54] On is I'm not sure just to be honest, I think that it's to some extent, I think we're all [19:04] still working through that and we can't be certain yet. [19:10] Right. [19:11] Presidency, my friend, Michael Beschloss, our friend, Michael Beschloss, likes to say [19:14] it takes 20, 25 years to be able to assess a presidency in historical terms as opposed [19:20] to journalistic ones. [19:21] And I think that's true. [19:22] It was true for Truman. [19:24] It was true for George Herbert Walker Bush. [19:26] And it's going to be true for for President Biden. [19:31] So a couple of things. [19:34] One is on the personal side. [19:38] What happened with President Biden and choosing to run again was in many ways a classic tragedy. [19:52] And I mean it this way, the personal characteristics that enabled Joe Biden from 1972 until 2020, [20:01] I mean, it was a tragedy. [20:02] It was a tragedy. [20:03] It was a tragedy to survive and even ultimately thrive amid immense personal tragedy and remarkable [20:14] political setback and stasis. [20:17] Right. [20:20] Those characteristics prevented him from stepping away. [20:26] I do not think I would bet the mortgage on this. [20:32] I don't think President Biden was clinging to power because he wanted an airplane or [20:36] because he loved power so much. [20:39] It was a result of his resilience, his determination to keep moving no matter what, and not ever [20:54] surrendering. [20:56] And he believed that he was the person who was the catcher in the rye, if you will, between [21:04] the country and Trump, President Trump. [21:08] And he was wrong. [21:11] Right. [21:13] Because from Greek tragedy through Shakespeare, this is a fundamental human drama. [21:21] The characteristics that propelled him to the pinnacle of power prevented him from doing [21:27] what he needed to do to step away from it. [21:31] And so now that's a biographer's point of view, right? [21:35] That's what I do. [21:36] That's why we're talking to you though, John. [21:39] In the broader sense, your question about the administration, I have a colleague at [21:43] Vanderbilt, Josh Clinton, who ran these numbers. [21:45] And don't hold me to them precisely, but they're directionally true. [21:51] There were something like 70 elections around the world in 2024. [21:57] And in not a single one did an incumbent ruling party add to its strength, which was the first [22:03] time that's ever happened in recorded election history. [22:07] So there was a global phenomenon, largely because of the inflationary impact of money [22:16] we spent during and after the pandemic. [22:24] President Biden was seen as having moved too far, quote unquote, to the left. [22:31] I think when you sit and sift through that, it's a more complicated story, but that was [22:40] a factor. [22:44] They tried to take advantage of what they could. [22:49] They tried to take advantage of a moment because that's what you do in politics, right? [22:56] I don't have a sense yet. [22:57] In fact, I was just hoping someone would do this. [23:00] So maybe the NewsHour could do it. [23:03] Here's an assignment. [23:04] This is not how I thought this conversation would go, but please go ahead. [23:07] Yeah. [23:08] There you go. [23:09] But see if you like the idea. [23:11] I think somebody should sit down and look at those three or four big pieces of legislation [23:17] that President Biden passed. [23:18] Okay. [23:19] And see what has survived and what hasn't. [23:23] Look at the infrastructure bill. [23:25] Look at the American Rescue Plan. [23:26] Look at the, what was it, the Inflation Reduction Act. [23:29] They all had weird names. [23:32] And what of the policy, because that's what we're, to answer the question you asked precisely, [23:38] someone's going to have to sit down and do that. [23:41] What did- [23:42] Because that's how we'll start to see impact and legacy. [23:45] Exactly. [23:46] Exactly. [23:47] That's where government... [23:48] So to figure out... [23:50] We know the political impact. [23:54] What we don't know right now is the governance one. [23:57] And I use President Bush Senior as an example here, right? [24:01] 39% of the country voted for him to be reelected. [24:05] So 61% of the country wanted him out. [24:09] But then you look at the governance and you had the conditions for a balanced budget in [24:15] the 1990s. [24:16] You had a limited and effective operation in the Persian Gulf. [24:21] Yeah. [24:22] You had the Americans with Disabilities Act. [24:24] You had the Clean Air Act. [24:26] You had significant stuff. [24:29] That's not all that interesting. [24:31] The other thing about the other Bush, which got very little attention in real time, but [24:37] which is arguably one of his two or three most important achievements, was the President's [24:44] Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief. [24:45] There are 20 million people alive today because in 2003, George W. Bush took steps. [24:51] Yeah. [24:52] Yeah. [24:53] George W. Bush took steps to combat HIV AIDS in Africa. [24:58] The program most people know as PEPFAR, we should say. [24:59] Almost nobody. [25:00] Yeah. [25:01] Yeah. [25:02] And almost nobody knows about that. [25:04] So it's just, these are big, complicated questions. [25:10] Do I wish that history had turned in a different way? [25:13] Do I wish President Biden had made different decisions in his last two years? [25:18] Absolutely. [25:21] But I think, not but, and. [25:23] Yeah. [25:24] I think I have a pretty good sense. [25:26] I think my theory, as I articulate it to you, is right. [25:31] I really do. [25:32] That over time, you believe the impact of his administration and leadership. [25:37] Because what in one season was admirable resilience became, in a different season, a blindness [25:56] to reality. [25:59] And that's, again, we could... [26:03] We could spend the rest of the afternoon talking about Aristotle and Shakespeare and [26:07] how a tragic flaw, how that unfolds. [26:12] But I don't think it was for ill motive at all. [26:15] Well, how about this? [26:16] We'll sit back here in about 15, 18 years and see if you were right or not. [26:22] You'll be here. [26:23] I'll be long gone. [26:24] But okay. [26:25] Well, let me ask you this on a more personal note, too, because we talked a lot [26:32] about your book when we did a live event together, which was fantastic. [26:34] And anyone who is interested should absolutely go out and read it. [26:39] It's called American Struggle. [26:40] But what you did in this book is go back and revisit, right, texts and pamphlets and speeches [26:46] and all the texts from those same moments in history that you've examined and written [26:50] about in the past. [26:52] And I wonder just from a personal motivation, from your standpoint, why do it that way? [26:58] Were you personally in search of something else, like something you might have missed [27:02] or some reason to keep believing? [27:04] What was it that made you say, I'm going to go back and look at it this way now? [27:09] This is very therapeutic. [27:10] Thank you. [27:11] Tell me how you feel, John. [27:12] This is great. [27:13] This is betterhelp.com. [27:14] I love this. [27:15] That's a great question. [27:16] Was I in search of something? [27:21] What I was really in, I don't think so. [27:24] I think what I, let me tell you what I was doing and then you tell me what you hear. [27:30] What I hear you say, and will there be a prescription at the end of this? [27:35] I don't have any reasons for that. [27:36] No. [27:37] Sorry. [27:38] I love psychopharmacology. [27:39] I want to tell this story, the story we talked about a minute ago. [27:43] I want to tell a story about a country that for all of its, to use a phrase from the Anglican [27:52] Book of Common Prayer, for all of its manifold sins and wickednesses, for all of that, it [28:01] has in extremis and in the hour of decision, fought fascism, created a middle class. [28:11] Undone segregation and slavery, and has attempted to create an ethos of democratic capitalism [28:27] that enables us to live lives of prosperity and purpose. [28:33] That is the country that for almost 50 years, I have believed in, thought about, lived in, [28:44] written about. [28:47] And I don't want that country. [28:51] I want that country to surrender itself to our baser instincts. [29:00] And the baser instincts are the rule of the strong. [29:04] Parenthetically, I would say to those who are in power now, be very careful because [29:09] all of human history says that if you're strong in one season, you're going to be weak in [29:13] another. [29:15] And so one of the reasons you have a rule of law is so you even it out. [29:18] So here was one more way to tell this story. [29:22] And that was to call on the people. [29:26] To call on the raw materials and let them bear witness for good and for ill, right? [29:31] This isn't just Frederick Douglass, right? [29:36] You got George Wallace. [29:37] You have Alexander Stevens, vice president of the Confederacy, who said the Confederacy [29:41] is founded on the great truth that the black man is inferior to the white man. [29:47] His Strom Thurmond in 1948 broke away from Harry Truman because Truman seemed too liberal [29:55] on civil rights. [29:56] He'd integrated the military. [29:56] You have illiberal voices as well, because that's also who we are. [30:08] You ask about President Biden. [30:09] One thing that we have a running debate about is he likes to say when something terrible [30:17] happens, this isn't who we are. [30:22] I for years have said, Mr. President, it's exactly who we are. [30:27] He doesn't believe it, right? [30:28] He thinks this is an aberration. [30:30] I think this is totally within character. [30:31] I don't believe it. [30:32] I don't believe it. [30:33] I don't believe it. [30:33] I don't believe it. [30:33] It's just, we manage to, at our best, we manage the worst instincts. [30:44] Of course it's who we are. [30:46] Of course this country is a mix of good and bad and light and dark, because we are. [30:52] I mean, you may not be, but God knows I am. [30:57] And so I wanted to say, here is a collection of voices that, while incomplete, are not [31:12] true. [31:13] If you read this book, you would get, I think, I think you would come away with a primer [31:25] on the best we've been and the worst we've been. [31:34] And now we have a decision to make. [31:37] What do we want the next section of this book, if there weren't one in 20 years, what do [31:49] you want to be in it? [31:51] What do you think would be in it? [31:54] And is it a chronicle of autocracy? [31:58] Is it a chronicle of un-nuanced anti-immigrant sentiment? [32:10] Or is it perhaps where we were even 20 years ago, 15 years ago, when the Senate came up [32:21] with an immigration bill that would have secured the border and created a process for a line [32:28] for undocumented folks to get in line for citizenship? [32:34] A bill that existed. [32:36] A bill that existed. [32:37] A bill that existed both under George W. Bush and under Barack Obama, 20 minutes ago, right? [32:46] That's a deal, by the way, just to point something out. [32:52] If President Trump wanted a Nixon to China moment, pass that bill. [32:58] The immigration bill. [32:59] I don't know if he could, but I bet he could. [33:01] Why do you say that? [33:02] Why do you think that would make such a difference for him? [33:08] It moves his immigration rhetoric forever from nativist baiting to constructive legislation. [33:17] Right. [33:19] To constructive legislation. [33:24] And that's one of the things, since we're being therapeutic, it's a fascinating historical [33:31] thing, right, Donald Trump? [33:35] Because no one, note this well, okay, because I don't say this much. [33:43] It's against my business model to say something is unprecedented. [33:48] But no American president, no American president has ever had the grip on the political and [33:58] cultural mindshare of the United States of America. [34:03] FDR didn't, Lincoln didn't, Ronald Reagan didn't. [34:09] He has a, it's not an unlimited fund of political capital, but it's a lot. [34:19] And he hasn't taken it out to shift metaphors for a spin, right? [34:29] And great American presidents tend to be the ones who surprise and challenge their base. [34:38] Nixon being the great example. [34:39] Right? [34:40] Nixon going to China is, Nixon began his national career as an anti-communist hunter. [34:49] Chase Alger Hiss, who was guilty, Chase Alger Hiss, right, was a red baiter. [34:57] Not McCarthy-esque, but within the same county. [35:03] And yet he opens up the most populous communist nation. [35:09] If I had said to you in 1948, that Richard Nixon was going to... [35:13] Open diplomatic, open relations with China, you would have said, that's crazy. [35:21] Ronald Reagan had some of the greatest anti-communist credentials in the history of American politics. [35:32] He starts out in 1981 saying in a press conference, his first press conference after it was inaugurated, [35:39] that the Soviet Union reserves unto itself the right to lie, to cheat, to steal, and [35:44] seeks world domination. [35:46] And by May, 1988, he... [35:47] He is literally in Red Square playing with babies, right? [35:52] And if a Democratic president had tried to do that, it would have been much more complicated. [35:57] So you're saying President Trump has political capital that he's not using... [36:01] He has not spent. [36:03] ... in a way that could build a real legacy. [36:05] That's your advice to him? [36:06] Absolutely. [36:07] To do something surprising. [36:08] And immigration, you think, is the way to do that. [36:11] Because I'll also point out, you know this better than most here, we have had real chapters [36:16] in American history in which we've seen this. [36:19] There's some version of this in the way of the nativist language and the mass immigration [36:24] deportation efforts. [36:25] How... [36:26] I know you don't like to use the word unprecedented, but how different is what we're seeing today [36:30] from those chapters of the past? [36:33] It's of a piece, right? [36:34] So we have... [36:35] We start... [36:36] And let's be clear here. [36:37] We start... [36:38] This is a perfect one where it ebbs and flows. [36:40] When people say this isn't who we are in immigration, they don't know anything, right? [36:45] We start with the Alien and Sedition Acts, right? [36:47] We start with giving the press... [36:48] We start with giving the president the power to deport people. [36:53] 1798. [36:54] Okay. [36:55] So this goes back to there. [36:57] The Chinese Exclusion Act in the 19th century. [37:03] In 1924, we so severely limited by national quota immigration, you know all this, that [37:11] that was the regime that was in place that the Roosevelt administration chose to follow [37:18] when we were dealing with... [37:20] With refugees from Nazi Germany. [37:22] And it wasn't undone until 1965. [37:26] The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 is one of the most important parts of the [37:30] Great Society that nobody talks about. [37:32] But for 40 years, we basically said we only want people from countries who have already [37:40] sent us people, right? [37:43] And it favored existing groups. [37:46] And to be clear, there are a lot of people today who argue that was the right, quote-unquote, [37:51] right immigration system. [37:52] That that was the right immigration system. [37:53] That that's what we should return to, right? [37:55] Yeah, I guess they would argue that. [37:57] I mean, it's a useful... [38:04] It's a real issue, but it is also a useful trope, right? [38:09] I mean, when you're talking about something as broadly complicated as globalization, as [38:21] a world that has become as small as it possibly ever has been. [38:31] There are dislocations. [38:34] There are people who cannot make a living the way they made a living. [38:40] Their sense of being, their sense of belonging, their capacity, as I said, to live lives of [38:47] prosperity and purpose, those means have gone away. [38:53] Is that the fault of people crossing the border for a better life? [38:59] I don't think so, but it's a heck of an easy argument to make, right? [39:05] Yeah. [39:07] And this is a global phenomenon, right? [39:11] I mean, this is going on around the world, and I'm not dismissing the cares and concerns [39:17] of those who are suffering because of a globalized economy that has, because of capitalism, because [39:31] of market forces, has sought less expensive labor around the world. [39:39] I mean, that's... [39:41] This is the great reality of the time. [39:44] And again, the American nation state that I've spent so much time, you know, writing [39:52] about, thinking about, hasn't come up with a very coherent or compelling answer for those [39:59] who have been disoriented and displaced by that broad shift. [40:07] And so, that is a... [40:09] That's a serious question, immense implications. [40:15] And it requires the best kind of thinking and policymaking. [40:24] And the political culture we have at the moment is not wildly conducive to the best political [40:29] thinking and policymaking. [40:31] How much of what you hear from your students today, because you get to interact with college [40:35] students on a regular basis at Vanderbilt, how much of what you hear from them on all [40:40] of these topics, whatever questions they ask, whatever thoughts they have, how much of that [40:44] surprises you? [40:48] They are more... [40:51] They're more hopeful than I would have thought, given... [40:54] Really? [40:55] Yeah, they are. [40:56] Good for them. [40:57] And may I speak with them, please? [40:58] Yeah, it is. [40:59] Yeah. [41:00] It is. [41:01] Though they have a sense that things are really... [41:06] Now they self-select, right? [41:07] So is this a broad thing? [41:10] But my favorite pedagogical story is this, five, six years ago, maybe a little bit more [41:21] now. [41:22] I was in a class and probably a hundred people and 50, somewhere, a lot of people. [41:34] And I was kind of on a, I won't say autopilot, but I was talking about how the Declaration [41:43] of Independence was the fullest manifestation of the Enlightenment impulse toward moving [41:52] from hereditary power... [41:53] Hereditary power to elective power. [41:57] And I was cruising along and a young woman raised her hand and said, I don't agree that [42:05] the Declaration of Independence was an Enlightened document because it didn't include me speaking [42:11] as a woman. [42:12] It didn't include black people, it didn't include Native Americans. [42:17] So how can you say that's Enlightened? [42:20] Totally fair. [42:21] I said, well, I didn't say it was Enlightened, but it was an Enlightenment era. [42:25] But here's what I want you to do. [42:26] And I asked them to go read Frederick Douglass' eulogy tribute to Abraham Lincoln delivered [42:36] in 1876 at the dedication of the Freedman's Monument on Capitol Hill. [42:42] First monument entirely funded by the formerly enslaved. [42:46] And I commend that to everyone listening as well. [42:52] Frederick Douglass, 1876, Oration in Memory of Abraham Lincoln. [42:57] It's the most profound meditation. [42:59] I've encountered on the nature of democracy and in some ways, the nature of biography [43:07] because he says in it that Abraham Lincoln was preeminently the white man's president. [43:15] We were merely his stepchildren. [43:17] He was cold, tardy, and indifferent to abolition. [43:24] He tarried long in the mountain, great phrase, but in the hour of final decision, he proved [43:36] to be. [43:38] He was a critical figure in the liberation of my race. [43:43] And to judge him for what he failed to do is to miss the point of what he did do. [43:56] And so I assigned that to the class. [44:01] And next class, I was moving on to the Louisiana Purchase. [44:11] So I was giving a quick fill on the Louisiana Purchase, which was, and I said, you know, [44:19] if Alexander Hamilton had been president and had tried to buy Louisiana under the terms [44:25] with the power that Jefferson assumed, Jefferson's head would have exploded. [44:30] He would have opposed it because you're always against executive power unless you have it. [44:36] And the same young woman raised her hand and said, I think you're being too hard on Jefferson. [44:42] And I said, what do you mean? [44:43] She said, well, you know, he was just doing what he had to do. [44:46] You know, Frederick Douglass said, I said, my work is done. [44:49] I'm out of here. [44:50] Right. [44:51] So I tell that story because it's part of why this book exists, actually. [45:01] What I have found is that younger folks are, in fact, more open to reason and deliberation. [45:12] Right. [45:14] Give them evidence. [45:15] Make a case. [45:16] They haven't ossified yet. [45:18] Right. [45:19] Too many of us are ossified. [45:20] Too many of us have picked a team. [45:23] We have a jersey. [45:24] We have all our gear. [45:25] Right. [45:26] We've already invested in the gear. [45:27] We're not going to get new gear. [45:28] And we're not curious anymore either about a lot of these things. [45:29] Right? [45:30] Yeah. [45:31] Right. [45:32] And there is a – I guess that – thank you. [45:33] That's the right word. [45:34] They are curious and they are open to argument. [45:35] And I think that's remarkable given their – again, their lived experience is if you [45:36] were born in the 21st century, the public sector has not covered itself in glory. [45:37] So the fact that they're open to argument gives me hope. [45:38] It makes me think of something that I've been thinking about for a long time. [45:39] And I think it's really important. [45:41] And I think it's really important. [45:42] And I think it's really important. [45:43] And I think it's really important. [45:44] And I think it's really important. [45:45] And I think it's really important. [45:46] It makes me think of something a dear friend and family member says who's actually a therapist [46:02] in her profession. [46:03] Maybe that's where you get it. [46:04] Maybe that's where I get it. [46:05] Yeah. [46:06] Yeah. [46:07] But she always talks about looking backwards with forgiveness and looking forward with [46:10] wisdom. [46:11] In other words, if you apply the wisdom you have today and try to look backwards with [46:17] you're going to get frustrated and you're going to get angry and you're going to get resentful. [46:20] But if you try to use that as wisdom that you pull forward to your future self, [46:25] that's how you make it productive. Now we're really getting into therapy territory. [46:29] I love this. And I'd like some more Klonopin, if that's possible. [46:36] Well, look, we're approaching a major moment for this nation that you've spent so much of [46:41] your career examining and trying to make sense of for the rest of us as we're approached 250 now. [46:47] How do we think about this balance between who we are today, celebrating the achievements [46:55] of the founding fathers, recognizing where we've fallen short and the work as yet to be done? I [47:01] mean, how do you at this moment look at that and whether it's a celebration or more of a call to [47:07] action? Well, it's an act of remembrance. And remembrance is not passive, but active, right? [47:15] Uh, and I draw this point from, [47:19] um, my religious tradition. I'm an Episcopalian, but it comes straight from the Hebrew Bible and [47:26] the New Testament, right? Uh, Moses said, remember the days of old, remember the years of many [47:31] generations. Ask thy father and he will tell thee thy elders and they will show thee. And one of the [47:39] most obeyed commandments ever is when Jesus said, do this in remembrance of me. And remembrance in [47:46] that sense is that when we tell a story, uh, [47:50] when we, in Christian terms say the mass, right? When, when, whether it's a Passover story or, uh, [47:59] the New Testament story and other traditions have the same, um, same point, um, in those words, [48:09] in those actions, you are revivifying something. You are recreating a reality. You are making [48:18] something alive again. And what, [48:24] what this kind of patriotic hour, uh, enables us to do is to tell a story and to make that story [48:35] not remote, but real. And I think its power comes not in its alleged simplicity, but in its inherent [48:47] complexity. And that's, again, that's the way I am. Uh, we're all fallen, frail and fallible people. [48:59] And if we can do the right thing, 51% of the time, [49:03] that's a heck of a thing. [49:04] And I think the country should be seen the same way. [49:09] Well, here's to more good days than bad days ahead. John Meacham. I, I know it's not probably [49:17] what you set out to do, but I always feel better after I get a chance to talk to you. I feel better [49:22] after reading your work. The new book is out now called American Struggle, Democracy, Dissent, [49:28] and the Pursuit of a More Perfect Union. I'm so grateful to you for taking the time to chat with [49:33] us today. Thank you so, so much. [49:35] Thank you for this. Do I get, do I get any Ken Burns DVDs? [49:38] You get a tote bag. You get a Ken Burns DVD. Yeah, absolutely. Viewers like you, anything. [49:43] Thank you.