Is the UK becoming less safe for Jewish people? — BBC Newscast

[0:00] Paddy, we are days away from what I've ridiculously been calling Mega May for ages, which is a huge set of elections on Thursday. [0:06] So you might at this moment in the news cycle expect that all we would be talking about is the particular ward of a particular council where some controversy has meant that a particular councillor might not win his seat. [0:18] However, due to the terrible events of the week and the attack on Jewish men in a North London suburb, all eyes politically have been on hatred and racism against Jewish people, otherwise known as anti-Semitism. [0:32] Yes, the stabbing of two men in the street. And then words matter. We know this increasingly because people believe things which are said which are not true. [0:42] This is one of the problems in our democracy at the moment. So words matter. So when a political leader happens to be Zach Polanski, retweeted, reposted on X, a remark about the behaviour of the police, the suspect and everything else, he had to apologise because stepping into the public arena without briefing yourself at the moment is really not the actions of a leader, says the Prime Minister. [1:07] And says the boss of the Met Police, the most senior cop in the country, who did a very unusual thing. He put a letter in public to Zach Polanski, essentially really slapping him down hard for criticising the behaviour of his officers, who, as the Met believe, put themselves into the line of danger to try to stop this attacker, who's now facing charges, doing any more harm. [1:32] So we had a terrible event happening in a Jewish community. There was then a terrible political row in the aftermath of that. [1:40] And we'll get into that, but also hear the first hand experiences of some young Jewish people on this Saturday's edition of Newscast. [1:47] Hello, it's Paddy in the studio. [1:51] And it's Laura in the studio. And in a few minutes, we'll speak to Judith Moritz, one of our special correspondents at the BBC. [1:57] Judith has been busy speaking to Jewish people in the community over a long period of time and also, of course, covered the synagogue attack in Manchester back in the autumn. [2:07] Because one of the horrors of this story, Paddy, is it is familiar now in Britain in the 2020s that there is an attack on the Jewish community like this. [2:16] We don't say that, that there's to the exclusion of any other community. Many other communities also face discrimination and hatred in many other ways. [2:24] But the political discussion has burst into life around the specifics of anti-Semitism in the United Kingdom because of this particular attack just a couple of days ago. [2:34] So it was in North London in a place called Golders Green, and two Jewish men were stabbed. [2:40] Esa Suleiman is accused of attacking them and another man who he knew in South London, he's been charged with attempted murder. [2:47] So then there's the issue you reported from in Manchester. [2:51] That's right. The Heaton Park Synagogue attack back in the autumn, which by chance was happening just as the Conservatives were starting their party conference then. [2:59] And then people were actually killed in that attack at Heaton Park. [3:05] Since then, there's been a whole pattern of attacks. [3:08] There was an arson attack recently on ambulances also in North London, also in Golders Green. [3:14] There was a firebomb attempted on a synagogue in Kenton, also in North London. [3:19] And also, if you don't know London, if you've never been to Golders Green, somewhere like Golders Green or Stamford Hill, you know, you go there and it's very clear that you're in a Jewish community. [3:27] People have all sorts of other faiths to live there, but it's very clear, just as it is actually around Heaton Park Synagogue in Manchester, [3:33] that you're in a Jewish community with lots of Orthodox families in the Jewish traditional dress going about their business. [3:39] So these are communities that are very well known and very easily identifiable as places that Jewish families have made their home for decades and decades. [3:48] Abroad, there was an attack at a Jewish holiday on Bondi Beach, the famed beauty spot in Australia. [3:57] And what lies at the heart of it is an argument over when people take their hatred for the actions of the Israeli state to a reader cross to behave against Jews. [4:10] That's the kind of starting point for the problems, because people who feel desperately angry at the actions of Benjamin Netanyahu are many and multiple, and some of them live in Israel. [4:22] Some of them are Jewish people. [4:24] So the big error, the big crime is the reader cross to attack Jewish people in Britain, assuming you know what they think, assuming you know their political views, because they are Jewish. [4:35] And the Jewish people I've spoken to, and many other people say, they feel this has been, the warning lights have been flashing, that there's been a permissive environment for, on the streets at these protests, [4:47] and these warnings that Jewish people have been given off this reader cross have been ignored, just as new slogans have been shouted. [4:54] And this they say, and I've been at the protests, this has been ignored by the political class. [5:00] And it's the oldest form of racism in the world, it's sometimes known as that, antisemitism, that has been given a grim new life by the realities of conflict in the Middle East. [5:11] And one of the reasons, because of this spike in antisemitism, the BBC has been looking at it very carefully. [5:16] So let's bring in Judith, who's made a panorama, a whole documentary about what's happened to the Jewish community, which went out and was put together before this latest attack. [5:27] So Judith, thank you so much indeed for joining us this afternoon. [5:31] No problem. [5:32] Now, you have been talking to Jewish people about this and the rise in antisemitism over many months. [5:38] If people haven't seen your panorama, they should definitely go to the iPlayer and watch it. [5:42] But what is at the front of your mind, having spent really some time delving into this issue? [5:48] I think, you know, the fact that you just called it the oldest hatred, that when we made the programme, we were looking at all of the ways in which antisemitism resurfaces, it's reborn, it mutates. [6:00] And all of the tropes, all of the stereotypes, which have always been there, you know, for generations, it doesn't take a lot for them to come back. [6:11] So, you know, as you say, quite rightly, certainly since the 7th of October 2023, when the situation in the Middle East escalated with the Hamas attack and the Israeli response, there has been a spike, a continued spike, we know, in the number of antisemitic incidents in the UK. [6:32] But when we looked at what they consist of, you know, on the streets, in extreme examples that we all know about, these attacks you've just listed, but plenty of other examples of what was described to me as ambient antisemitism, people talking about being spat at or shouted at or targeted because they're wearing a kippah, a skullcap, you know, relatively low level, but very upsetting everyday experiences for plenty of people. [7:01] That has been at a peak since October 23 as well. [7:05] And the other thing is, you know, we looked online and that is, it doesn't take more than, I don't know, a few seconds to pick up when you look for this stuff. [7:15] An incredible number of these tropes, you know, the old stereotypes, Jews being wealthy, Jews controlling the banks, the media, Holocaust denial, all of that gets wrapped up as well. [7:28] It's omnidirectional, this. It comes from the left, from the right, and it never goes away. [7:34] But I think what we're looking at at the moment is a real, it is a real moment in Britain. [7:41] I think lastly, I should just say, you know, everybody I've spoken to in the community has said, this is not a surprise to us. [7:49] We've been watching this happen, certainly over the last couple of years, but actually over a generation, security has been tightened. [7:57] You go into synagogues, you go to Jewish schools, the fencing, the CCTV, the security guards, that's not a brand new thing. [8:06] That's something that's been happening almost like mission creep over, I would say, you know, 15, 20 years or more. [8:13] And it's become normal, actually, for members of the Jewish community. That's what they live with. [8:18] And I remember being in the Heaton Park area after that attack, something we talked about, actually, didn't we, Paddy, at that time? [8:24] Three little boys who'd come that morning to see what had happened, and they were curious in their community. [8:28] There were police milling around, there were politicians turning up. [8:31] Kemi Badenock turned up, Andy Burnham, the mayor of Greater Manchester, turned up. [8:34] And I was talking to these three little boys, and they were all telling me that every day on their way to school, they got shouted at. [8:40] Another young Jewish father came and told me about how when he'd taken his kids to the park, on several occasions, people had sort of swarmed around the family and been shouting slogans at them. [8:49] So he'd taken his kids home from the park. [8:51] So that, you know, Judith Yock, but that ambient anti-Semitism. [8:54] But that is everyday experiences for people trying to just live normal lives, for children, for families. [9:00] This is not just about leaders or buildings or religious leaders. [9:05] These are British people in this country who are living with regular abuse, some of it dangerous. [9:13] We see these real dangers on the streets now, much of it unpleasant. [9:17] But that kind of background noise to Jewish life in the UK has become normalised in many ways. [9:23] And Paddy, you this morning, as you told us, you were at a Jewish event in North London. [9:28] Yes, I went behind a very high fence where I went through the gate. [9:32] I was allowed in just to Judith's point. [9:35] And based on your reporting from Manchester, I wanted to speak to teenagers between 12 and 16. [9:41] And one little girl, I think she's 13, told me that what she would really like most is that when you hear something that is rude or borderline anti-Semitic in public, [9:51] you would stand by and say, you can't say that that's rude. [9:54] You should apologise. Don't say that. [9:55] She would like to see more support. [9:57] All of those teenagers said the events are scary. [10:00] What we really want you to hear is the determined optimism of these young British people. [10:05] And we often talk, don't we, about what does a younger newscaster think? [10:09] So we've just laid out the worst of what's happening. [10:14] But I hope you'll hear here. [10:16] These are young British people who are confident about how it could work here. [10:21] And they're proud of their country. [10:22] They happen to be Jewish and they've got things to say. [10:25] So here's a little bit of what happened when I spoke to teenagers at Finchley Progressive Synagogue. [10:30] Right. So here we go round. Can I ask who's the youngest here? [10:36] You're the youngest. So what ages do we have here? [10:40] I'm 12. [10:41] Joshua, how is it to be a 12 year old Jewish boy in London? What's it like? [10:45] Personally, I've never had anything anti-Semitic aimed directly at me. [10:50] But at the moment, it's pretty scary with everything so close. [10:55] But at school, everyone knows I'm Jewish and I don't receive anything negative coming towards me about that. [11:02] So I'm pretty happy about that. [11:03] Right. And same to you. [11:04] What do you feel about being a young Londoner teenager in London with happens to have one faith? [11:09] Some have none. Some have others. [11:10] Yeah, I think it's definitely scary. [11:12] And I think it's now that I'm 16 as opposed to being a young guy now and more aware of what's going on in the world. [11:19] And it's definitely, definitely scary. [11:21] I think in terms of optimism, I feel like this stuff has always happened. [11:25] It's, you know, it's happened since before I was born. [11:27] It's probably happened before many of the people listening have been born. [11:30] And is Britain great, do you think? [11:32] I think it's, I don't know, maybe not anymore. [11:36] But I mean, I think that's a difficult question. [11:39] Good. That's why I asked it. [11:40] What do you think, as a young Londoner, what do you make of things at the moment? [11:43] I think I go to a Jewish school, so there's loads of security at the gate and stuff. [11:48] And like, it's sort of a shame that there has to be such security there. [11:52] Do you have any optimism? [11:54] For what? [11:55] For growing older, doing your A-levels, getting a job, living a lovely life. [11:59] Yeah, obviously I do. I think I'd like to stay in London. [12:03] I like the city. I love the city. [12:05] So, an awful attack like this, you still love the city? [12:09] Yeah, I do. I think it's great. [12:10] Yeah, I mean, I agree. I think London's probably the best city in the world. [12:13] I tell all my friends that. [12:14] And even this has happened and you find it a bit scary? [12:17] Yeah, I think it happens all over the world. [12:19] And I think it's a shame that it happens all over the world. [12:21] But it is just one of those things that I've been taught as a young Jewish person, that it just happens. [12:27] What's the best thing about your life being 12? What's the thing you love doing? [12:30] I'm quite creative, so I like playing hockey and kind of drawing and stuff like that. [12:36] Do you mostly think about drawing and hockey rather than the news about what's going wrong? [12:41] I feel like thinking about the news all the time would just make me a bit depressed. [12:46] I need to take your tip. [12:48] Yeah, and it would kind of not make me enjoy life as much as usual. [12:54] And hello, same question to you. You're our only teenage girl in the room. [12:58] Can you remind me how old you are and what do you think of the events at the moment? [13:01] I'm 13 and yeah, they're pretty scary, especially because they happen so close to where I live. [13:07] But I haven't experienced it personally ever. But I mean, it is quite worrying. [13:13] I think one of the things that surprised me most is how sudden it's been. [13:15] You know, there have been three or four instances in the space of a few weeks. [13:18] So that's kind of surprised me. [13:20] I wouldn't be as obviously Jewish moving around. [13:22] You know, I wouldn't wear my Starved David necklace if I was just walking around. [13:25] But apart from that, I wouldn't kind of consciously, I wouldn't like to say I wasn't Jewish, you know. [13:30] So do you feel that's a shame? [13:32] Yes, it would be nice to be able to express who I am more. [13:37] But it's not affecting my life in a large way that I'm thinking about all the time. [13:41] You know, it's really interesting when, and look, it's great, isn't it, to hear Jewish kids saying we've not experienced this. [13:47] I think that what they are experiencing, though, and certainly you heard there from the boy who's going to a Jewish school, [13:53] who has to get through that security, is this normalisation of even though they may not themselves have been targeted [14:00] or have experienced, thankfully, any sort of abuse, what they have done is had to navigate perhaps security measures [14:07] and other protocols that non-Jewish children won't have done. [14:12] Now, that, of course, doesn't apply to everybody. [14:15] There are plenty of Jewish people in the UK who haven't experienced anti-Semitism. [14:19] I think that the more overt you are, the more you display signs of your Jewish faith and culture, perhaps, [14:28] and the area you may be in, the more likely one might think you may be to experience it. [14:33] Because you spoke to one adult man, didn't you, who hides something very important about himself. [14:38] So, you know, we have come across, during the making of the Panorama and our other work, [14:42] we've come across Jewish men saying that they won't go out and about showing their skullcap, their kippah. [14:49] One man told us that he has gone and bought a baseball cap this weekend so that when he goes into central London, [14:56] he's not displaying that sign. [14:59] I've spoken to women who say that they have taken steps to take off their Star of David necklace, [15:04] although one woman then said, actually, no, I thought, she said, I'm going to be proud about this. [15:08] I'll put it back on and see what happens. [15:10] So it's that sort of thing. [15:11] Or perhaps the ultra-Orthodox members of the community who you will see wearing traditional garb, [15:17] who may find themselves perhaps more vulnerable overtly to that. [15:22] But, you know, I think the point about antisemitism and the way it's cutting through across the whole of the community, [15:29] from the Orthodox end through all of the other denominations, [15:33] and of course the Jewish community is multifaceted through the progressive side as well, [15:37] is that everybody in that community engaging in a Jewish space, a synagogue, a school, [15:42] perhaps going into a kosher shop, they will see the protective measures which are now in place as standard. [15:47] So that's standard. [15:49] And there are, sadly, Judith, there are Jewish people who talk now about leaving the UK. [15:56] There are some Jewish people who have left the UK feeling that it can no longer be a safe place [16:01] and can no longer be their home. [16:03] Just tell us about one of the people who you've interviewed who is going to leave the country. [16:09] Yeah, we've come across a few, actually. [16:12] I mean, in fact, there's a chap I spoke to on Thursday this week who literally, [16:19] I went round to his house and the for sale sign was on the front drive and he was packing up his last bits, Richard Manville, [16:26] who told me in Manchester he lives down the road from Heaton Park Synagogue and he's leaving the country because he cannot cope, [16:33] he said, with any more antisemitism. He's moving to Israel. [16:36] Now, that is a decision clearly which didn't happen this week in the wake of Golders Green. [16:40] But I asked him what had caused him to put the house on the market and make that choice. [16:45] And he said it's a drip, drip effect since the 7th of October, 23, when he really felt tensions increase and the amount of antisemitism increase. [16:57] Life became harder. He lives down the road from Heaton Park Synagogue. [17:01] He has friends who were sadly caught up in that attack. [17:05] It felt very close to home. [17:07] And I said, you know, there will be people saying to you that it seems extraordinary that you feel safer in Israel with all that's going on there than you do in the UK. [17:18] And he said, well, it might do. But as a Jewish man, that's how I feel. [17:22] And I have to tell you, he's not the only member of the Jewish community who said that to us this week. [17:27] And there is some research by the Institute for Jewish Policy Research which suggests that one in five British Jews are currently considering moving to Israel [17:36] or talking about it at some point over the next five years. [17:40] The thing that's happened in the last couple of days because of the attack is that it has become an intensely political issue. [17:48] So we've talked about what it's like in the community and it's been really valuable to hear those voices that you spoke to this morning, Paddy, [17:55] and also Judith, all the conversations that you've had in the last few months. [17:59] The political question on this issue has been for quite some time what to do about the marches, [18:04] what to do about the many thousands of people who've gone into our city centres to demonstrate about their strong feelings about what is happening in Gaza [18:14] and how many politicians and many people particularly but not exclusively in the Jewish community think that there are elements who have used those marches to express anti-Semitism. [18:25] They've been talked about as an incubator for Jewish hatred rather than just a purely peaceful way of demonstrating against the actions of Netanyahu's government. [18:35] All of that has led the Prime Minister himself to come out and say, I think with more punch and more clarity than he said before, [18:43] that in his view actually what happens at some of those marches is completely intolerable. [18:49] There are particular things at those marches that are chanted that should lead to be people being prosecuted. [18:54] And he told our colleagues at the Today programme late yesterday in an interview that was played this morning, [19:00] that actually in his view, perhaps some of those marches actually should not be allowed to go ahead. [19:06] I don't want to get involved in operational policing, but I think when you see, when you hear some of those chants, [19:12] globalise the intifada with the one that I would pick out, then clearly there should be tougher action in relation to that. [19:18] Now, that's not a discussion that has only been had this week in response to this awful incident. [19:23] That is a discussion we've been having with the police for some time. [19:27] In relation to the repeated nature of the marches, many people in the Jewish community have said to me, [19:35] it's the repeat nature, it's the cumulative effect. [19:37] Now, I accept that, which is why we intend to deal with cumulative effects. [19:41] So, a moratorium, because there's been a call, as you know, from your independent advisor on terrorism, Jonathan Hall. [19:47] He says it's time for a moratorium on protests. [19:49] I think it's time to look across the board at protests and the cumulative effect. [19:56] I think it's time for, I would say, some people protesting to just reflect on what the Jewish community is going through [20:05] and the overall impact that this is having. [20:08] It's really interesting to hear that because after the Heaton Park attack, there was a call that weekend from the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary and other political leaders just to say to people, think again about going along to this. [20:20] We understand if you have deeply held feelings against what Netanyahu's government is doing. [20:25] But think again, listen, understand what's happening in the Jewish community and understand that there may be people in part of this movement who are expressing something that is different to what you are expressing. [20:40] But frankly, this whole thing has been very, very difficult for the government, not least because there are very strong feelings on the left about what Netanyahu does. [20:48] There are very strong feelings on the left and have been for a long time about how important it is to recognise Palestine. [20:53] That's something that this government did. But in terms of handling this issue of how you protest in such a charged environment, it's been very, very difficult for them indeed. [21:03] There's no question about that, particularly with the Labour Party's recent history of what happened under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, which, you know, is now going back a decade. [21:13] But there's a very painful episode where for a long time, many people in the Labour Party and outside the Labour Party felt very strongly that anti-Semitism was quietly tolerated or not dealt with firmly enough. [21:32] And that people who cared very, very much, very deeply about standing up for Palestinian rights were sometimes willing to look the other way when it came to people expressing, frankly, very unsavoury and downright offensive views about Jewish people. [21:45] Now, without re-litigating those whole years and years that went on around that issue under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, that whole clash and quandary for political leaders is right back under our noses again. [21:59] And it's played out in the last couple of days, not this time between Jeremy Corbyn and his political opponents, but between Keir Starmer and Zach Polanski, who now, of course, is the leader of the Greens in England and Wales. [22:09] And he has been accused, particularly vehemently in the last couple of days, but actually also in the last couple of months, of allowing in his party a level of debate that does tolerate anti-Semitic views. [22:24] He, of course, denies that. You mentioned the issue of his tweet. He's apologised for resharing that post and we should just read his statement. [22:31] He says, I accept that social media is not the appropriate channel for doing so. I've invited Mark Rowley to meet with me to discuss the police response. [22:38] But more broadly, he would always say as a Jewish leader and as a Jewish man himself, he's got absolutely no tolerance for anti-Semitism. [22:47] But that charge has been laid at his door because there are candidates for the Green Party standing in election who have said horrendous things. [22:54] And the Met Police Commissioner, Sir Mark Rowley, you mentioned his letter. Here he is talking about why rushing to go to the public forum and criticise police tactics is a dangerous thing to do. [23:08] Here's what he said to BBC Breakfast. [23:10] Politics is a matter for politicians, not for me. But when somebody who's eminent steps into operational policing and reinforces criticisms that will undermine the confidence of my officers to act in the protection of citizens, [23:30] I need to step forward and say, no, that's not acceptable because I need my officers to be confident in the most dangerous and difficult circumstances. [23:38] I had two unarmed officers confronting a man who they were convinced was a terrorist in their own view in that moment. [23:47] They were convinced of that. And even when he was on the ground, he wasn't cooperating. He wasn't releasing the knife. [23:53] They were concerned because he had a rucksack and a puffer jacket. They were concerned as whether he may have explosive devices or anything else. [23:59] And yet, despite being an arm, they were confronting him. [24:02] I think this intersection of politics and policing is uncomfortable on all fronts, but it's not new, is it? [24:15] I mean, I'm reminded of that moment in the wake of Heaton Park when Sir Mark Rowley stood next to the Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police, Sir Stephen Watson, [24:24] and said at that point that current laws are inadequate to deal with the public order policing in this sphere. [24:35] Now, obviously, what happened at the Golders Green this week is not part of public order policing, but the opinions of those two senior officers have been for a long time that they don't have the tools to deal with the issues or many of the issues which are finding at the moment so much prominence. [24:56] And actually, you know, when I've looked at the legislation, the range of different kinds of legislation they're having to deal with to tackle racial and religious hate crime, [25:05] Public Order Act, the Crime and Disorder Act, the Criminal Justice Act, the Racial and Religious Hatred Act. [25:10] You know, there's a range of it. Now, this is one of the things that Ken McDonald, Lord McDonald, is currently reviewing for the government. [25:17] He's looking at whether or not there needs to be more legislation, as these senior officers are saying, or whether it needs to be simplified. [25:24] And that, by the way, is the view of Jonathan Hall Casey, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation. [25:31] He told me for Panorama that we don't need any more laws, that in his mind, this is a really simple thing. [25:36] He said to me, in fact, the evidence is in what you're seeing on the streets at these protests, he said, chants like globalise the Intifada. [25:45] That, he says, is that you can draw a direct line between that, between that sort of hate speech, those placards, those chants, and what we're now seeing in terms of extreme acts of violence. [25:58] He said, it's a very simple matter. The police need to be tougher on this. [26:02] Right. Well, the Panorama is called Anti-Semitism, Why British Jews Are Afraid. [26:09] It is the work of Judith Moritz, who's been working very hard on a Saturday for us. [26:14] So thank you very much indeed, Judith. [26:16] It's nice to see you. [26:17] Thank you for being with us, Judith. It's great to have you on Weekend Newscast. [26:20] Good to be here. [26:22] London is going to be really important, in particular for Labour. [26:26] There's a big concentration of Labour's members in London. [26:30] Labour going into the elections control. [26:33] , [26:35] *** [26:38] This is no... [26:39] ..... [26:42] . [26:43] This is... [26:44] . [26:46] Here he is, [26:48] please. [26:50] **